[00:02] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[00:02] Bob Dobbs: I'm here with
[00:03] Bob Dobbs: Cameron. I'm Bob Dobbs.
[00:06] Bob Dobbs: This is
[00:09] Bob Dobbs: January 14th,
[00:09] Bob Dobbs: 2021,
[00:12] Bob Dobbs: and this is the 10th recording that Cameron and I have done in the past few months.
[00:21] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[00:21] Bob Dobbs: so Cameron,
[00:22] Bob Dobbs: we were doing my charts.
[00:24] Bob Dobbs: You were hoping I could elucidate them,
[00:28] Bob Dobbs: and
[00:29] Bob Dobbs: I did.
[00:31] Bob Dobbs: The two charts made in 1985,
[00:33] Bob Dobbs: bottom-up and top-down charts,
[00:36] Bob Dobbs: and then 10 years later,
[00:38] Bob Dobbs: I was inspired to put the top-down and bottom-up and other factors together and involved more than McLuhan.
[00:50] Bob Dobbs: I read a lot of other people in that period,
[00:53] Bob Dobbs: 85 to 95,
[00:55] Bob Dobbs: so they bounce off each other nicely.
[00:59] Bob Dobbs: So I found a way to integrate them,
[01:02] Bob Dobbs: sort of.
[01:04] Bob Dobbs: Each part is a spinning gyroscope,
[01:08] Bob Dobbs: I'd say.
[01:10] Bob Dobbs: So if you go,
[01:14] Bob Dobbs: well,
[01:15] Bob Dobbs: you'd have to ask us where these are,
[01:18] Bob Dobbs: but you would go to Ion and Bob,
[01:20] Bob Dobbs: scroll down to the bottom of the homepage,
[01:23] Bob Dobbs: look for something that says Bob
[01:25] Bob Dobbs: Dobbs' Charts.
[01:27] Bob Dobbs: And you click on that and then go down to the bottom of a whole bunch of charts vertically laid out for you until you get to the Bob Dobbs formula chart pretty well at the bottom.
[01:37] Bob Dobbs: So this was the chart that the famous tiny note chart,
[01:42] Bob Dobbs: which is the one,
[01:43] Bob Dobbs: the tiny note chart,
[01:44] Bob Dobbs: that I popularized beginning with presenting in Flipside Magazine in 95,
[01:50] Bob Dobbs: 96.
[01:52] Bob Dobbs: And that's the one I would talk about,
[01:55] Bob Dobbs: but not.
[01:56] Bob Dobbs: Many people knew it came from another chart.
[01:59] Bob Dobbs: Only if they quizzed me and got into it would I tell where it came from.
[02:05] Bob Dobbs: So this is the Bob Dobbs formula chart.
[02:07] Bob Dobbs: And when I say formula,
[02:09] Bob Dobbs: I'm thinking of McLuhan in Interior landscape,
[02:14] Bob Dobbs: the book Interior landscape,
[02:15] Bob Dobbs: and his essay on Wyndham Lewis.
[02:16] Bob Dobbs: He talked about the modern artist,
[02:18] Bob Dobbs: and that's the first half of the 20th century,
[02:21] Bob Dobbs: like the scientist has a formula,
[02:23] Bob Dobbs: develops a formula.
[02:26] Bob Dobbs: Which is interesting.
[02:26] Bob Dobbs: You remember that section in the Wyndham Lewis essay?
[02:30] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[02:30] Bob Dobbs: It's an important statement by him.
[02:33] Bob Dobbs: It's part of his putting on the scientific formula tendency.
[02:39] Bob Dobbs: So this was my formula chart.
[02:40] Bob Dobbs: So it's organized around the,
[02:45] Bob Dobbs: I guess it's the ground,
[02:49] Bob Dobbs: the parents in Finnegans Wake.
[02:53] Bob Dobbs: There is a family.
[02:55] Bob Dobbs: Humphrey Hillman Earwicker has a family,
[02:58] Bob Dobbs: which has two sons who are twins and a daughter.
[03:02] Bob Dobbs: And he's married to Anna Olivia Pluribelt.
[03:05] Bob Dobbs: So I decided to make the female character the ground,
[03:11] Bob Dobbs: as shown in the bottom-up and top-down charts ten years before.
[03:18] Bob Dobbs: And
[03:19] Bob Dobbs: H.C.E. would be the other...
[03:24] Bob Dobbs: Half of the ground.
[03:26] Bob Dobbs: Or another ground,
[03:29] Bob Dobbs: but I have it laid out on the chart as
[03:32] Bob Dobbs: ALP is half of the stage,
[03:35] Bob Dobbs: and HCE is the other half of the stage,
[03:37] Bob Dobbs: and stage means the ground,
[03:41] Bob Dobbs: taking off of McLuhan
[03:44] Bob Dobbs: Global Theater.
[03:45] Bob Dobbs: But it is moving into the global membrane,
[03:50] Bob Dobbs: which will become the Android Meme,
[03:52] Bob Dobbs: so that the...
[03:53] Bob Dobbs: stage is figure,
[03:59] Bob Dobbs: half figure,
[04:00] Bob Dobbs: let's say.
[04:02] Bob Dobbs: And then the children are figures on a more ephemeral level.
[04:09] Bob Dobbs: So a bunch of ratios going on here.
[04:14] Cameron McEwen: Could we say,
[04:15] Cameron McEwen: Bob,
[04:15] Cameron McEwen: that the
[04:18] Cameron McEwen: ALP and the HCE grounds are one-half?
[04:23] Cameron McEwen: stages because they're in dynamic interaction.
[04:27] Cameron McEwen: That one is constantly becoming the ground at the expense of the other,
[04:35] Cameron McEwen: and the children then represent a kind of dancing effect of that constantly changing ground.
[04:50] Bob Dobbs: Maybe you should explain these charts.
[04:53] Bob Dobbs: That was pretty good.
[04:57] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[04:57] Bob Dobbs: I agree.
[04:57] Bob Dobbs: You said one-half stages.
[05:02] Bob Dobbs: I think the word was stages that I didn't hear clearly.
[05:04] Bob Dobbs: Right?
[05:06] Cameron McEwen: Yes.
[05:06] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[05:06] Cameron McEwen: And that was what you have in the chart.
[05:10] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[05:10] Cameron McEwen: One half stage for ALP and one half stage for HCE.
[05:14] Cameron McEwen: And it's important to consider the ramifications of stage,
[05:20] Cameron McEwen: because on the one hand,
[05:22] Cameron McEwen: it's like a theatrical stage in which you might say time has been suspended,
[05:31] Cameron McEwen: where you have what?
[05:35] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan sometimes called the figures of being in some kind of
[05:47] Cameron McEwen: Moorish dance performing for us.
[05:52] Cameron McEwen: And on the other hand,
[05:53] Cameron McEwen: stage has a temporal meaning.
[05:58] Cameron McEwen: And
[05:59] Cameron McEwen: I think you have in mind both of those ideas of stage.
[06:05] Bob Dobbs: Exactly.
[06:06] Bob Dobbs: Did you say Moorish dancing?
[06:08] Cameron McEwen: Moorish dance,
[06:09] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[06:10] Bob Dobbs: You mean in Africa?
[06:15] Cameron McEwen: Yes.
[06:17] Cameron McEwen: I think it's Wordsworth uses the phrase Moorish dance,
[06:24] Cameron McEwen: and elsewhere
[06:27] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan talks about a Moorish dance,
[06:31] Cameron McEwen: which is what
[06:33] Cameron McEwen: Wordsworth was referring to with...
[06:35] Cameron McEwen: Maurice.
[06:37] Cameron McEwen: And the idea is that a Moorish dance is comparable to the
[06:46] Cameron McEwen: Italian comedic stage with its set characters.
[06:51] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[06:52] Cameron McEwen: So what McLuhan had in mind with the Moorish dance is a constant change of the same.
[07:03] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[07:03] Bob Dobbs: but are you referring also to the
[07:05] Bob Dobbs: MORS, M-O-R-S,
[07:07] Bob Dobbs: of North Africa?
[07:09] Cameron McEwen: Yes.
[07:09] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[07:10] Bob Dobbs: well,
[07:10] Bob Dobbs: that's very interesting.
[07:11] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[07:13] Bob Dobbs: the other meaning of stage I had in mind was in Laws of Media,
[07:17] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan tetrad,
[07:19] Bob Dobbs: I think,
[07:19] Bob Dobbs: on the Global Village,
[07:22] Bob Dobbs: or
[07:22] Bob Dobbs: I'm not sure what it was.
[07:24] Bob Dobbs: Maybe you can remember,
[07:25] Bob Dobbs: but it flips into your credit card as your stage.
[07:32] Bob Dobbs: You remember that?
[07:33] Cameron McEwen: Interesting.
[07:34] Cameron McEwen: No,
[07:34] Cameron McEwen: I don't,
[07:34] Cameron McEwen: but it's very interesting.
[07:37] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[07:37] Cameron McEwen: Their stage is a ground,
[07:42] Cameron McEwen: but a funny ground,
[07:43] Cameron McEwen: right?
[07:44] Cameron McEwen: It's a ground that other people determine,
[07:46] Cameron McEwen: and you contribute to without knowing it.
[07:50] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[07:50] Bob Dobbs: and it can mean that the stage,
[07:53] Bob Dobbs: everything's disappeared visually.
[07:55] Bob Dobbs: You're part of the electric circuitry.
[07:57] Bob Dobbs: You've merged with it almost,
[07:59] Bob Dobbs: and so you're in the circuitry of the credit card.
[08:02] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[08:03] Cameron McEwen: yeah,
[08:03] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[08:03] Bob Dobbs: So the credit card is your stage.
[08:05] Bob Dobbs: So that's something in the tetrad that no one's ever commented on.
[08:10] Bob Dobbs: It's really important,
[08:11] Bob Dobbs: I think.
[08:12] Bob Dobbs: I'll have to look it up for you,
[08:13] Bob Dobbs: see where that can happen.
[08:17] Cameron McEwen: It's definitely what you mean by half stage.
[08:20] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[08:21] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[08:21] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[08:22] Cameron McEwen: The tetrad has an inherent movement between the four corners,
[08:29] Cameron McEwen: and that inherent movement.
[08:32] Cameron McEwen: is what I think you're getting at with half stage in your chart.
[08:37] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[08:38] Bob Dobbs: exactly.
[08:39] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[08:40] Bob Dobbs: so remember about 1977,
[08:44] Bob Dobbs: this became available during the centenary of McLuhan in 2011.
[08:50] Bob Dobbs: The Australian Broadcasting Company had a neat interview with McLuhan in 77 in Australia,
[08:58] Bob Dobbs: where he,
[08:58] Bob Dobbs: it was the first time he ever publicly said it.
[09:01] Bob Dobbs: He was talking about Finnegans Wake,
[09:03] Bob Dobbs: where in the book,
[09:06] Bob Dobbs: or radio program,
[09:07] Bob Dobbs: Joyce presented the media as characters.
[09:10] Bob Dobbs: Have you ever seen that interview?
[09:13] Cameron McEwen: Oh,
[09:13] Cameron McEwen: definitely.
[09:14] Cameron McEwen: And
[09:15] Cameron McEwen: I don't remember the exact conversation that you're talking about,
[09:21] Cameron McEwen: but
[09:22] Cameron McEwen: I remember in general him getting into that topic.
[09:27] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[09:28] Bob Dobbs: which is important.
[09:30] Bob Dobbs: I always wanted him to talk more about that in public.
[09:33] Bob Dobbs: But it ended up we had to go into Eric McLuhan PhD work to get details on the Thunders and Finnegans Wake and Meteor's characters.
[09:45] Bob Dobbs: So with that in mind,
[09:47] Bob Dobbs: I've got the five members of the family,
[09:50] Bob Dobbs: and the bottom-up chart is ALP,
[09:53] Bob Dobbs: and that's what it says under one-half stage.
[09:55] Bob Dobbs: Bottom-up ground,
[09:57] Bob Dobbs: effects.
[09:59] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[09:59] Bob Dobbs: the person that did this spelled it wrong.
[10:01] Bob Dobbs: They got proceeding causes.
[10:03] Bob Dobbs: Should be effects preceding causes,
[10:05] Bob Dobbs: P-R-E.
[10:06] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[10:07] Bob Dobbs: So I'll have to get that corrected.
[10:10] Bob Dobbs: So then on the far right,
[10:12] Bob Dobbs: you have the top-down chart extension.
[10:16] Bob Dobbs: So it's called top-down bureaucratic ground,
[10:20] Bob Dobbs: and it has causes in quotes merging with effects.
[10:23] Bob Dobbs: And when you have causes in quotes,
[10:25] Bob Dobbs: one is referring to page 130.
[10:29] Bob Dobbs: seven of Take Today at the very bottom,
[10:32] Bob Dobbs: where he quotes,
[10:34] Bob Dobbs: puts cause and effects in italics or in quote marks at different points in a paragraph.
[10:39] Bob Dobbs: It's very important to be able to read the levels,
[10:42] Bob Dobbs: you know what I mean?
[10:44] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[10:44] Cameron McEwen: sir.
[10:45] Bob Dobbs: In that sentence,
[10:46] Bob Dobbs: that's probably one of his most complex sentences.
[10:50] Bob Dobbs: Of course,
[10:50] Bob Dobbs: the figures are like the figures in bottom-up and top-down charts,
[10:56] Bob Dobbs: but I specify them as actors.
[10:59] Bob Dobbs: And they are retrievals or interior landscape.
[11:02] Bob Dobbs: Interior landscape refers to the early formula McLuhan developed where when movies came in,
[11:09] Bob Dobbs: the novel became art form.
[11:10] Bob Dobbs: Or when television came in,
[11:13] Bob Dobbs: movies became art form.
[11:15] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[11:15] Bob Dobbs: Yep.
[11:18] Bob Dobbs: So that's the meaning of actors and then in brackets retrieval slash interior landscape.
[11:23] Bob Dobbs: Interior landscape,
[11:24] Bob Dobbs: I think the way McLuhan used it,
[11:26] Bob Dobbs: he meant the art form process.
[11:27] Bob Dobbs: Does that?
[11:28] Cameron McEwen: go with you yes okay one thing we should note is that um when you specify these actors and and you're following uh Joyce in doing that um you have an
[11:44] Cameron McEwen: important theme that McLuhan was thinking about very early and that um he may have taken up from carl jung and that is the idea that the dominance of
[11:58] Cameron McEwen: the psyche are persons in their own right and that all of personality in fact is something that comes to us not
[12:15] Cameron McEwen: from us so that we we make a kind of character mistake when we think of ourselves as controlling subjects when really we are controlled
[12:28] Cameron McEwen: subjects.
[12:29] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[12:30] Bob Dobbs: I agree.
[12:31] Bob Dobbs: And you have persona.
[12:35] Bob Dobbs: What was the name for the mask for actors in Greek theater 2,000 years ago,
[12:42] Bob Dobbs: right?
[12:43] Cameron McEwen: Yes,
[12:43] Cameron McEwen: sir.
[12:43] Bob Dobbs: It's a mask.
[12:46] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[12:46] Bob Dobbs: the formula is above these names.
[12:50] Bob Dobbs: Very top,
[12:50] Bob Dobbs: I have co-evolutionary anticipatory mimesis,
[12:55] Bob Dobbs: and I was thinking of
[12:57] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan use of anticipatory in early
[13:00] Bob Dobbs: 70s when he talked about anticipatory democracy versus participatory democracy.
[13:06] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[13:06] Bob Dobbs: so I had that in mind,
[13:07] Bob Dobbs: or quoting him there.
[13:09] Bob Dobbs: Co-evolutionary anticipatory mimesis equals how the media archetypes fit the Battle of Jericho in American politics.
[13:18] Bob Dobbs: And fit the Battle of Jericho is a phrase from a McLuhan essay in about issue number five.
[13:27] Bob Dobbs: of his explorations in the
[13:29] Bob Dobbs: 50s. Maybe you know the date?
[13:31] Bob Dobbs: The media fit the Battle of Jericho.
[13:33] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[13:34] Cameron McEwen: 55,
[13:35] Cameron McEwen: I think.
[13:36] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[13:37] Bob Dobbs: And he also talks in another essay,
[13:39] Bob Dobbs: the media as political art form.
[13:41] Bob Dobbs: So that's why I add in American politics.
[13:44] Bob Dobbs: So I'm thinking of different McLuhan titles when I put that together.
[13:50] Cameron McEwen: Let's just talk about that top line,
[13:55] Cameron McEwen: that top title line for a minute.
[13:57] Cameron McEwen: I'll tell you how I read it,
[14:02] Cameron McEwen: and then you can tell me if I get it right or wrong.
[14:05] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[14:06] Cameron McEwen: So by anticipatory mimesis,
[14:10] Cameron McEwen: I think what he's talking about is knowing the effects of causes and being able to act knowing those
[14:24] Cameron McEwen: effects,
[14:25] Cameron McEwen: as opposed to now.
[14:27] Cameron McEwen: where we act before knowing and then get hung up in the effects that we didn't know were coming.
[14:35] Cameron McEwen: And then that equals how the media archetypes fit in the Battle of Jericho,
[14:41] Cameron McEwen: because in order to know the effects by way of anticipation,
[14:50] Cameron McEwen: we have to know how the media archetypes fit.
[14:56] Cameron McEwen: together.
[15:00] Cameron McEwen: Note that the word fit in Fit the Battle of Jericho is very ambiguous.
[15:07] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[15:08] Cameron McEwen: And when I say how the archetypes fit together,
[15:13] Cameron McEwen: what I'm talking about is the fact that since the dominance of subjectivity,
[15:21] Cameron McEwen: both individually and collectively,
[15:24] Cameron McEwen: come to us rather than from us,
[15:28] Cameron McEwen: We have to know the working of those dominants beforehand.
[15:36] Cameron McEwen: And so the battle of those archetypes at Jericho is a way of saying,
[15:47] Cameron McEwen: if we look at that battle and understand that battle,
[15:50] Cameron McEwen: that gives us the ability to anticipate the effects.
[15:57] Cameron McEwen: before the causes,
[15:58] Cameron McEwen: which the other side is talking about.
[16:01] Bob Dobbs: Exactly.
[16:02] Bob Dobbs: And for people who don't know the phrase,
[16:05] Bob Dobbs: the Battle of Jericho,
[16:06] Bob Dobbs: that's a biblical story way back there,
[16:08] Bob Dobbs: Old Testament.
[16:10] Bob Dobbs: And somebody blew the trumpet and knocked the walls down.
[16:14] Bob Dobbs: So the Battle of Jericho is the increasing merging of media forms,
[16:19] Bob Dobbs: which we're very familiar with now.
[16:21] Bob Dobbs: It wasn't so familiar,
[16:23] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[16:23] Bob Dobbs: a hundred years ago.
[16:25] Bob Dobbs: It's the merging of things.
[16:29] Bob Dobbs: But there is a tactile reaction and full separation that's attempted.
[16:36] Bob Dobbs: But I mean the imploding factor in the tidal layer.
[16:41] Bob Dobbs: And they're fighting.
[16:42] Bob Dobbs: They're resisting the implosion.
[16:45] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[16:46] Cameron McEwen: So the characteristic difference between ourselves.
[16:54] Cameron McEwen: is that
[16:56] Cameron McEwen: I see that battle as going on all at once.
[17:02] Cameron McEwen: And so the various possibilities of archetypal interaction occurs along a spectrum of possibilities.
[17:15] Cameron McEwen: So at the extreme ends of the spectrum,
[17:18] Cameron McEwen: you have merging,
[17:20] Cameron McEwen: and then towards the center,
[17:22] Cameron McEwen: you have more and more.
[17:25] Cameron McEwen: differentiation of the archetypes.
[17:30] Cameron McEwen: And so the instant view,
[17:34] Cameron McEwen: you could say,
[17:35] Cameron McEwen: is a kind of dancing on that spectrum all at once.
[17:40] Cameron McEwen: Whereas what you prefer to do is look at the dancing on the spectrum in chronological time.
[17:51] Cameron McEwen: So that one
[17:54] Cameron McEwen: identification of the battle takes place at one time and then that instigates another and another time and both of those views are correct it's it's not the case that the story
[18:11] Cameron McEwen: of the universe and the story of human beings in the universe is timeless and it's also not true that it's only chronological it's both together right
[18:23] Cameron McEwen: So what we're talking about in our characteristic ways is how to think about all of this stuff in a way that fits sort of both our inclinations.
[18:37] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[18:38] Bob Dobbs: and you'll be delighted to learn that,
[18:41] Bob Dobbs: yes,
[18:41] Bob Dobbs: this chart is more sequential,
[18:44] Bob Dobbs: but the tiny note chart is meant to be simultaneous,
[18:47] Bob Dobbs: as you will see when I explain it.
[18:50] Cameron McEwen: Good.
[18:51] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[18:51] Bob Dobbs: so there are two types in my charting.
[18:54] Bob Dobbs: But there's the
[18:58] Bob Dobbs: ALP serves as bottom-up,
[19:01] Bob Dobbs: and HCE is the male attempts to manage or bureaucratize the effects that they see,
[19:10] Bob Dobbs: which are usually a step behind.
[19:14] Bob Dobbs: And
[19:17] Bob Dobbs: I guess we'd have to say...
[19:19] Bob Dobbs: In the West,
[19:20] Bob Dobbs: it tended to become a patriarchy.
[19:23] Bob Dobbs: Men dominated the left hemisphere actions of bureaucracy more than women,
[19:28] Bob Dobbs: though maybe there were different phases in what was called the Dark Ages,
[19:34] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[19:34] Bob Dobbs: 500
[19:36] Bob Dobbs: A.D. or the,
[19:38] Bob Dobbs: what is it,
[19:38] Bob Dobbs: C.E.,
[19:39] Bob Dobbs: 500 Common Era,
[19:41] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[19:41] Bob Dobbs: before the
[19:44] Bob Dobbs: Holy Roman Empire of
[19:46] Bob Dobbs: Charlemagne. There was apparently lots of...
[19:51] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[19:52] Bob Dobbs: sharing,
[19:53] Bob Dobbs: exchanging,
[19:53] Bob Dobbs: flipping of roles in the less literate,
[19:57] Bob Dobbs: less visual space-oriented dark ages.
[20:05] Cameron McEwen: You know about that?
[20:08] Cameron McEwen: In a society that is less ordered,
[20:12] Cameron McEwen: I think that's more or less inevitable.
[20:15] Cameron McEwen: And the reason for that is that there are always different spheres to life,
[20:22] Cameron McEwen: some of which are controlled by women,
[20:26] Cameron McEwen: some of which are controlled by men,
[20:27] Cameron McEwen: and some of which are controlled by both.
[20:30] Cameron McEwen: So.
[20:31] Cameron McEwen: In a society where there isn't much what might be called national order,
[20:39] Cameron McEwen: where order is local,
[20:41] Cameron McEwen: it's inevitable that women have a greater role in that because women are the chieftains of local order.
[20:52] Bob Dobbs: Yep.
[20:54] Bob Dobbs: The men range.
[20:55] Bob Dobbs: William Empson.
[20:56] Bob Dobbs: Thompson,
[20:57] Bob Dobbs: a McLuhan,
[20:58] Bob Dobbs: he does a lot of...
[21:00] Bob Dobbs: Writing on these points in the early
[21:03] Bob Dobbs: Neolithic phases,
[21:05] Bob Dobbs: when the women tended to be back at their little central place and doing the gardening and cooking,
[21:14] Bob Dobbs: while the men roamed around hunting.
[21:18] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if that's true,
[21:19] Bob Dobbs: but much anthropology,
[21:22] Bob Dobbs: archaeology,
[21:23] Bob Dobbs: and whatever evidence we have,
[21:27] Bob Dobbs: points to those two roles.
[21:29] Bob Dobbs: way back there after we'd be we started to settle down from the paleolithic so that was the first division and Thompson points out that women created they were the first scientists they
[21:44] Bob Dobbs: measured their menstrual cycles up with the moon cycles so they had little measuring devices and that's an interesting point right science
[21:59] Bob Dobbs: begins with women.
[21:59] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[22:01] Cameron McEwen: the moon was their measuring device.
[22:03] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[22:04] Bob Dobbs: They had some other thing,
[22:06] Bob Dobbs: I can't remember right now,
[22:07] Bob Dobbs: lunar stick or something.
[22:09] Bob Dobbs: There was some where they put maybe the markings.
[22:12] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[22:12] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[22:13] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[22:14] Cameron McEwen: there was research done on that.
[22:16] Cameron McEwen: There was a man by the name of Alexander Marshak that studied markings on bones and wood microscopically.
[22:27] Cameron McEwen: And he tried to show that there was early calculation being shown in these things.
[22:35] Cameron McEwen: But I think his research has largely been discredited.
[22:40] Cameron McEwen: Oh,
[22:40] Bob Dobbs: that's right.
[22:42] Bob Dobbs: Thompson talks a lot,
[22:44] Bob Dobbs: quotes and handles
[22:46] Bob Dobbs: Marshak a lot,
[22:46] Bob Dobbs: and in the end doesn't agree with him.
[22:49] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[22:50] Bob Dobbs: so Marshak was found to be limited or something,
[22:53] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[22:55] Bob Dobbs: maybe projecting too much.
[22:59] Bob Dobbs: male positions on it,
[23:02] Bob Dobbs: I think.
[23:02] Bob Dobbs: There was a lot of feminist stuff that attacked him or disagreed with him,
[23:10] Bob Dobbs: and Thompson tended to favor the feminists in the
[23:13] Bob Dobbs: 70s, maybe.
[23:13] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[23:14] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[23:16] Cameron McEwen: I think that there's a far greater appreciation now of how localized culture was for hundreds of thousands of years.
[23:28] Cameron McEwen: And that trying to talk about culture as new or old stone age really doesn't apply across the universe of small local cultures that
[23:44] Cameron McEwen: were going on.
[23:46] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[23:47] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[23:48] Bob Dobbs: so again,
[23:50] Bob Dobbs: this chart,
[23:50] Bob Dobbs: like the bottom up and top down,
[23:52] Bob Dobbs: so I'm putting the two of them together,
[23:55] Bob Dobbs: a more complex chart with the same...
[23:57] Bob Dobbs: point to show the movements of media interacting over a span of time.
[24:04] Bob Dobbs: You'll see in the tiny note chart,
[24:09] Bob Dobbs: I move out of McLuhan.
[24:10] Bob Dobbs: It's not all McLuhan,
[24:13] Bob Dobbs: but this is straight ahead McLuhan because you've got here,
[24:18] Bob Dobbs: take the first era,
[24:20] Bob Dobbs: telegraph.
[24:23] Bob Dobbs: That's under ALP,
[24:24] Bob Dobbs: and under HCE,
[24:26] Bob Dobbs: you get particular dating,
[24:28] Bob Dobbs: 1750 to 1800.
[24:31] Bob Dobbs: So
[24:33] Bob Dobbs: I have the telegraph being made before,
[24:38] Bob Dobbs: 100 years before it was made,
[24:40] Bob Dobbs: technically by Samuel Morris or whoever,
[24:43] Bob Dobbs: 1840 or so.
[24:47] Bob Dobbs: I start off 1750 because that's when Ben Franklin is doing his kite flying.
[24:52] Bob Dobbs: experiments trying to figure out electricity,
[24:56] Bob Dobbs: right?
[24:57] Bob Dobbs: So he's helping to build the telegraph 100 years before.
[25:01] Bob Dobbs: In that sense,
[25:02] Bob Dobbs: that's on the efficient causality level,
[25:04] Bob Dobbs: that's the effects preceding the causes there.
[25:07] Bob Dobbs: See,
[25:07] Bob Dobbs: so
[25:08] Bob Dobbs: I make it a broad span there,
[25:10] Bob Dobbs: 1750 to 1800,
[25:13] Bob Dobbs: and that is going to take the effects of print and make them more rigid.
[25:22] Bob Dobbs: So it psychological decentralization or bureaucracy.
[25:29] Bob Dobbs: So the ground is telegraphed,
[25:30] Bob Dobbs: but the ground goes over a span of time,
[25:35] Bob Dobbs: and it's conflicting with the medium,
[25:39] Bob Dobbs: and the medium is the actors,
[25:42] Bob Dobbs: Shem,
[25:42] Bob Dobbs: Sean,
[25:42] Bob Dobbs: Essie,
[25:43] Bob Dobbs: they are the previous anti-environment,
[25:46] Bob Dobbs: and other figures,
[25:48] Bob Dobbs: which is McLuhan later definition of media.
[25:50] Bob Dobbs: So in the telegraph phase,
[25:56] Bob Dobbs: you have the technological...
[25:58] Bob Dobbs: slash cultural enemy,
[26:00] Bob Dobbs: and that's usury,
[26:02] Bob Dobbs: or the monarchy,
[26:04] Bob Dobbs: older systems.
[26:06] Bob Dobbs: Okay?
[26:07] Bob Dobbs: You see,
[26:07] Bob Dobbs: that's what their visions,
[26:10] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[26:10] Bob Dobbs: take Washington,
[26:12] Bob Dobbs: George Washington.
[26:13] Bob Dobbs: They wanted to make a new culture to get rid of the tyranny of the British Empire,
[26:19] Bob Dobbs: which was probably usurious and heavily taxing.
[26:26] Bob Dobbs: you
[26:27] Bob Dobbs: The Telegraph inspires
[26:30] Bob Dobbs: Washington as a figure,
[26:33] Bob Dobbs: and
[26:34] Bob Dobbs: Washington is going to use manufacturing to create a wealthier culture than the British,
[26:41] Bob Dobbs: who are based on usury and monarchy.
[26:44] Bob Dobbs: So that's the war there.
[26:46] Bob Dobbs: You see what I'm saying?
[26:48] Cameron McEwen: Sure.
[26:49] Cameron McEwen: And what's interesting to me there is that this is a very...
[26:56] Cameron McEwen: Étienne Gilson vine.
[26:59] Cameron McEwen: I'm referring to Harold Innis.
[27:00] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[27:02] Cameron McEwen: So what you seem to be saying to me is that with the technology of the telegraph,
[27:13] Cameron McEwen: you tend to heighten centralization in the same way as paper and roads.
[27:25] Cameron McEwen: at one time enabled centralization in the
[27:29] Cameron McEwen: Roman Empire,
[27:31] Cameron McEwen: but this is a very different type of centralization,
[27:36] Cameron McEwen: a more instantaneous one,
[27:40] Cameron McEwen: relatively more instantaneous.
[27:42] Cameron McEwen: And then typical reactions to this technology and to the centralization that it prompts are
[27:54] Cameron McEwen: the children boxes.
[27:56] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[27:57] Cameron McEwen: So the opposition to England,
[28:00] Cameron McEwen: the favoring of manufacture in the United States,
[28:05] Cameron McEwen: and the figure of Washington.
[28:07] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[28:07] Bob Dobbs: So
[28:10] Cameron McEwen: I,
[28:11] Cameron McEwen: I find that highly understandable and illuminating.
[28:17] Cameron McEwen: No problem.
[28:18] Bob Dobbs: Good,
[28:19] Bob Dobbs: because I'm,
[28:19] Bob Dobbs: this is focusing on media as figures.
[28:24] Bob Dobbs: In the processes.
[28:25] Bob Dobbs: So when I bring in the human form,
[28:28] Bob Dobbs: I call it anthropomorphic,
[28:29] Bob Dobbs: sociological,
[28:30] Bob Dobbs: psychological,
[28:31] Bob Dobbs: mask,
[28:32] Bob Dobbs: or leg.
[28:34] Bob Dobbs: The humans are a bit behind.
[28:37] Bob Dobbs: So Washington is a major figure for that period,
[28:40] Bob Dobbs: 1776,
[28:44] Bob Dobbs: and he's up against processes he has no clue about.
[28:48] Bob Dobbs: And he is tending.
[28:51] Bob Dobbs: Telegraph is the beginning of software effects,
[28:56] Bob Dobbs: and so the content is manufacturing,
[29:00] Bob Dobbs: where America can really move ahead with that.
[29:02] Bob Dobbs: Hardware,
[29:04] Bob Dobbs: right?
[29:04] Bob Dobbs: So Washington and his intelligence agencies and military under
[29:11] Bob Dobbs: HCE are fighting the older paper software of usury and monarchy.
[29:20] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[29:20] Bob Dobbs: paper is kind of a software compared to hardware,
[29:25] Bob Dobbs: but it is considered,
[29:26] Bob Dobbs: in McLuhan terms,
[29:27] Bob Dobbs: a hardware anti-environment opposed to,
[29:31] Bob Dobbs: what,
[29:31] Bob Dobbs: coinage or pre-printing press money economies,
[29:37] Bob Dobbs: right?
[29:38] Cameron McEwen: Sure,
[29:38] Cameron McEwen: but all these things flip,
[29:40] Cameron McEwen: of course,
[29:40] Cameron McEwen: depending on if they're considered as figure of one.
[29:44] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[29:45] Bob Dobbs: So...
[29:46] Bob Dobbs: So basically,
[29:47] Bob Dobbs: it's a simple cartoon where I'm saying,
[29:48] Bob Dobbs: okay,
[29:49] Bob Dobbs: look at Washington.
[29:51] Bob Dobbs: And you might know the dates of his battles,
[29:53] Bob Dobbs: traditional and historical education or fantasy education that are taught Innis,
[29:59] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[29:59] Bob Dobbs: young schools.
[30:01] Bob Dobbs: But,
[30:02] Bob Dobbs: OK,
[30:02] Bob Dobbs: you begin to have a media ecology perspective by saying,
[30:04] Bob Dobbs: look at this figure.
[30:05] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[30:05] Bob Dobbs: he's fighting manufacture.
[30:07] Bob Dobbs: He's promoting manufacturing.
[30:09] Bob Dobbs: He's fighting a printing press culture over in Britain.
[30:15] Bob Dobbs: And he doesn't notice the telegraph.
[30:17] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[30:18] Bob Dobbs: So...
[30:19] Bob Dobbs: And then you see the centralization or basically
[30:22] Bob Dobbs: 19th century's nationalization starts to become a big deal.
[30:26] Bob Dobbs: So you're supposed to see a process across the board here,
[30:30] Bob Dobbs: right?
[30:32] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[30:32] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[30:33] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[30:34] Bob Dobbs: So the next one,
[30:37] Bob Dobbs: electric software,
[30:39] Bob Dobbs: which is what I'm emphasizing,
[30:40] Bob Dobbs: because there's all kinds of other technologies going on in the hardware manufacturing world.
[30:49] Bob Dobbs: But I'm making a broad outline emphasizing electric media,
[30:54] Bob Dobbs: getting us into the 20th century.
[30:58] Bob Dobbs: That's what I'm trying to probe to.
[31:00] Bob Dobbs: So the next one is movies for my purposes,
[31:04] Bob Dobbs: right?
[31:04] Bob Dobbs: And you're to see that the enemy of movies is the newspaper because the newspaper would probably find,
[31:11] Bob Dobbs: well,
[31:11] Bob Dobbs: the cliche is that when Hollywood started to surface,
[31:14] Bob Dobbs: say,
[31:15] Bob Dobbs: in the
[31:15] Bob Dobbs: 1910s and 20s,
[31:16] Bob Dobbs: there was a...
[31:17] Bob Dobbs: den of debauchery from the moralists of the newspaper world.
[31:22] Bob Dobbs: You know what
[31:23] Cameron McEwen: I mean?
[31:24] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[31:24] Bob Dobbs: So movies are affecting,
[31:27] Bob Dobbs: so you have a hyper figure as illustrated in Citizen Kane,
[31:35] Bob Dobbs: the movie.
[31:37] Bob Dobbs: So you have this sensationalist guy up against other sensationalist papers and
[31:44] Bob Dobbs: They actually,
[31:45] Bob Dobbs: they think they're fighting the book.
[31:48] Bob Dobbs: They don't know the movie's coming down the pike,
[31:51] Bob Dobbs: as anti-environment maybe,
[31:52] Bob Dobbs: or how it's going to change the newspaper.
[31:55] Bob Dobbs: So,
[31:55] Bob Dobbs: now this movies,
[31:58] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[31:58] Bob Dobbs: I've got Jefferson 1810,
[32:00] Bob Dobbs: and this is 1800,
[32:01] Bob Dobbs: 1840.
[32:02] Bob Dobbs: Movies aren't for another 60 years.
[32:04] Bob Dobbs: So,
[32:05] Bob Dobbs: this is the effects preceding causes.
[32:08] Bob Dobbs: And McLuhan wrote about how the first symbolists,
[32:12] Bob Dobbs: the Romantics.
[32:13] Bob Dobbs: had a lot of cinematic effects in their poetry.
[32:16] Bob Dobbs: He saw
[32:18] Bob Dobbs: 19th century poetry as anticipating cinema.
[32:22] Bob Dobbs: So I have that in mind,
[32:23] Bob Dobbs: too.
[32:23] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[32:25] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[32:25] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[32:26] Bob Dobbs: So here it is,
[32:28] Bob Dobbs: the figures,
[32:28] Bob Dobbs: Jefferson,
[32:29] Bob Dobbs: 1810.
[32:30] Bob Dobbs: He's in a process that's going to lead to industrial government.
[32:35] Bob Dobbs: Its centralization includes that,
[32:37] Bob Dobbs: but the...
[32:41] Bob Dobbs: Barons,
[32:42] Bob Dobbs: what are they called?
[32:43] Bob Dobbs: Robber barons,
[32:45] Bob Dobbs: people who make anti-environment,
[32:47] Bob Dobbs: a new industry.
[32:49] Bob Dobbs: They become incredibly wealthy and become more powerful than the civil agencies,
[32:55] Bob Dobbs: the civil governments,
[32:57] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[32:57] Bob Dobbs: local,
[32:57] Bob Dobbs: state,
[32:58] Bob Dobbs: national.
[32:58] Bob Dobbs: So I'm trying to show something new is happening in government or top down control there.
[33:06] Bob Dobbs: So the just like the manufacturers were the.
[33:10] Bob Dobbs: Enemies against the usury,
[33:12] Bob Dobbs: you have the printed book versus newspaper.
[33:15] Bob Dobbs: And,
[33:15] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[33:16] Bob Dobbs: one of McLuhan best quotes starts off
[33:23] Bob Dobbs: Interior landscape,
[33:24] Bob Dobbs: the first Joyce essay where he quotes Lamartine in 1830,
[33:30] Bob Dobbs: talking about the newspaper Lamartine predicts will be in charge of information and perception by the end of the...
[33:39] Bob Dobbs: 19th century.
[33:39] Bob Dobbs: It's an incredible quote.
[33:42] Bob Dobbs: And he says,
[33:42] Bob Dobbs: the book arrives too late,
[33:46] Bob Dobbs: you know?
[33:47] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[33:48] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[33:48] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[33:49] Cameron McEwen: There's a nice flip there.
[33:51] Cameron McEwen: Excuse me.
[33:52] Cameron McEwen: Between the first three boxes of your movies line,
[34:02] Cameron McEwen: it seems to me what you're talking about and what I find interesting is that
[34:08] Cameron McEwen: the centralization has continued to increase.
[34:16] Cameron McEwen: And this can be seen as a movie effect because what the movies do is they move away from local production and local distribution into
[34:34] Cameron McEwen: national distribution.
[34:37] Cameron McEwen: Everybody goes to see the same thing.
[34:40] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[34:41] Cameron McEwen: So the enemy of the movie is the newspaper because it's only local.
[34:47] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[34:48] Cameron McEwen: And it does not,
[34:50] Cameron McEwen: at least at this time,
[34:52] Cameron McEwen: have...
[34:53] Cameron McEwen: National distribution.
[34:55] Cameron McEwen: Excuse me,
[34:56] Cameron McEwen: I've got a continual frog in my throat here.
[35:00] Bob Dobbs: But you want to,
[35:00] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[35:01] Bob Dobbs: spit,
[35:02] Bob Dobbs: take a break,
[35:02] Bob Dobbs: spit?
[35:05] Cameron McEwen: I'll just take a little drink of my coffee here.
[35:10] Cameron McEwen: So then your next box is the printed book.
[35:15] Cameron McEwen: And the printed book is a way of...
[35:22] Cameron McEwen: taking the print that is in the newspaper,
[35:25] Cameron McEwen: but making it national in distribution.
[35:29] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[35:30] Cameron McEwen: And so what you call the movie effect is at work in the printed book.
[35:40] Cameron McEwen: And then if you look to the end of the same century,
[35:46] Cameron McEwen: the reason that the newspaper can be
[35:51] Cameron McEwen: said to take over from the book again is that when printing becomes less centralized and more customer-oriented,
[36:07] Cameron McEwen: then you can make books that are,
[36:10] Cameron McEwen: in effect,
[36:10] Cameron McEwen: newspapers.
[36:12] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[36:13] Bob Dobbs: and I was thinking,
[36:14] Bob Dobbs: the pattern McLuhan noticed,
[36:16] Bob Dobbs: that many of the famous novelists in the second half of the 20th century
[36:20] Bob Dobbs: the 19th century started off as journalists,
[36:24] Bob Dobbs: like Charles Dickens.
[36:26] Cameron McEwen: Sure.
[36:27] Cameron McEwen: You can even think of
[36:28] Cameron McEwen: Poe already setting the standards.
[36:32] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[36:33] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[36:34] Bob Dobbs: so that's a very good observation.
[36:41] Bob Dobbs: So we move from 1800 to 1840 lockdown industrial government to 1840 to 1900 lockdown electrical government.
[36:50] Bob Dobbs: And actually,
[36:51] Bob Dobbs: those years,
[36:52] Bob Dobbs: there is no electrical government,
[36:54] Bob Dobbs: but this is about anticipatory mimesis,
[36:59] Bob Dobbs: effects preceding causes,
[37:00] Bob Dobbs: largely,
[37:01] Bob Dobbs: and early forms of the causes merging with effects.
[37:04] Bob Dobbs: But those are causes in quotes.
[37:07] Bob Dobbs: That's more surface,
[37:11] Bob Dobbs: ephemeral causes or visible causes,
[37:14] Bob Dobbs: maybe in the realm of efficient causality.
[37:19] Bob Dobbs: Or material causality,
[37:22] Bob Dobbs: new ideas in material causality.
[37:25] Bob Dobbs: So the next one is radio,
[37:27] Bob Dobbs: and that's 1860.
[37:30] Bob Dobbs: Mr.
[37:30] Bob Dobbs: Lincoln is a major figure,
[37:32] Bob Dobbs: and McLuhan used to say that the telegraph caused the American Civil War.
[37:39] Bob Dobbs: So there's the enemy,
[37:41] Bob Dobbs: telegraph and oratory,
[37:45] Bob Dobbs: which Lincoln was a great...
[37:48] Bob Dobbs: Demonstration of,
[37:49] Bob Dobbs: and many of the politicians in Europe were great orators.
[37:53] Bob Dobbs: So it's the last gasp of speech.
[37:57] Bob Dobbs: Maybe speech is art form.
[38:00] Bob Dobbs: And it's going to be swallowed up by radio.
[38:05] Bob Dobbs: Which,
[38:06] Bob Dobbs: and the content of radio isn't just speech.
[38:10] Bob Dobbs: It's also the tactile silence of radio,
[38:14] Bob Dobbs: is the content.
[38:16] Bob Dobbs: So that's...
[38:17] Bob Dobbs: pretty obvious what I'm saying there.
[38:20] Bob Dobbs: Any points you want to say?
[38:22] Cameron McEwen: No,
[38:24] Cameron McEwen: I really like the movement that is involved Innis chart.
[38:33] Cameron McEwen: It's a little bit like the work of Harold Innis,
[38:37] Cameron McEwen: but more focused,
[38:41] Cameron McEwen: and it also has an immediate dynamism that I like.
[38:47] Cameron McEwen: So you're showing that the media work forwards and backwards in time,
[38:58] Cameron McEwen: and they have contradictory effects,
[39:03] Cameron McEwen: and those effects also work forwards and backwards in time.
[39:10] Bob Dobbs: Exactly.
[39:11] Cameron McEwen: In order to understand what's going on here,
[39:14] Cameron McEwen: you have to imagine.
[39:18] Cameron McEwen: individuals and whole cultures kind of dancing.
[39:25] Cameron McEwen: It's as if they're on a top that is constantly turning,
[39:33] Cameron McEwen: but also the top itself is undergoing transformations.
[39:39] Cameron McEwen: And so the individuals and the collectivities constantly have to
[39:46] Cameron McEwen: to find new balance because everything is changing around them and under them.
[39:53] Cameron McEwen: What you're showing is the kind of concrete moments of this dance on top of the top.
[40:06] Bob Dobbs: Exactly.
[40:07] Bob Dobbs: And
[40:08] Bob Dobbs: I think the phrase McLuhan liked,
[40:10] Bob Dobbs: macroscopic gesticulation.
[40:13] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[40:14] Cameron McEwen: yeah,
[40:14] Cameron McEwen: exactly.
[40:16] Bob Dobbs: And you've mentioned this twice,
[40:19] Bob Dobbs: a tremendous book is Empire in Communication.
[40:22] Bob Dobbs: I think it's plural,
[40:23] Bob Dobbs: maybe,
[40:24] Bob Dobbs: communications with an S.
[40:26] Bob Dobbs: But that's a year before the bias of communication,
[40:30] Bob Dobbs: which is 51.
[40:31] Bob Dobbs: And we hear about the bias of communication when we start reading about McLuhan,
[40:35] Bob Dobbs: because that mentions McLuhan.
[40:37] Bob Dobbs: But what you're describing,
[40:39] Bob Dobbs: Innis does an incredible scholarly detail.
[40:43] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[40:43] Bob Dobbs: back there 2,000 years,
[40:45] Bob Dobbs: he works it right up to the 20th century.
[40:46] Bob Dobbs: But all these amazing historical...
[40:51] Bob Dobbs: scenarios of different dynasties and the media they used,
[40:55] Bob Dobbs: and then the media would be taken away and other effects.
[40:58] Bob Dobbs: You're right.
[40:59] Bob Dobbs: This is very Nietzsche,
[41:00] Bob Dobbs: what we're doing here.
[41:03] Cameron McEwen: Let me just mention that the
[41:07] Cameron McEwen: Empire in
[41:08] Cameron McEwen: Communications was,
[41:09] Cameron McEwen: first of all,
[41:10] Cameron McEwen: a lecture series in Oxford in 1948.
[41:14] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[41:15] Cameron McEwen: And although McLuhan always said that the bias of communication was the first...
[41:20] Cameron McEwen: book he read of Innis,
[41:22] Cameron McEwen: that was false.
[41:24] Cameron McEwen: In fact,
[41:25] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan mentions in his letter to Innis early in 1951 that he had already read
[41:33] Cameron McEwen: Empire and Communications and he comments on it.
[41:36] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[41:37] Cameron McEwen: So the influence of Innis on McLuhan has been completely displaced from when it really happened,
[41:48] Cameron McEwen: which was around 19...
[41:50] Cameron McEwen: 1949 to 1951 or 1952,
[41:56] Cameron McEwen: which is when McLuhan remembered it,
[41:59] Cameron McEwen: but falsely remembered it.
[42:02] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[42:04] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan told me through the Evergreens that he really appreciated Innis because it allowed him to take an authoritative scholar in Canada and in the world and use him to anchor what he was already...
[42:20] Bob Dobbs: messing with in the
[42:21] Bob Dobbs: 40s, early media analysis.
[42:24] Bob Dobbs: And he said,
[42:27] Bob Dobbs: I might have said,
[42:27] Bob Dobbs: did you put him on?
[42:31] Bob Dobbs: And he says,
[42:32] Bob Dobbs: yes,
[42:32] Bob Dobbs: way more than you realized.
[42:34] Bob Dobbs: I,
[42:35] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[42:36] Bob Dobbs: squeezed him for all I could get to the hidden ground was a satirical element.
[42:43] Bob Dobbs: He was satirizing Innis in the long run.
[42:46] Bob Dobbs: That's what he said.
[42:50] Bob Dobbs: So Innis was the perfect figure,
[42:52] Bob Dobbs: establishment figure that McLuhan could work all many levels with.
[43:00] Bob Dobbs: So that's interesting.
[43:04] Cameron McEwen: I think what he's talking about there is by satirizing,
[43:09] Cameron McEwen: I think he means that he could put the Innis mask on,
[43:14] Cameron McEwen: but he could also take it off.
[43:15] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[43:16] Bob Dobbs: And even writes that in 53 in his essay,
[43:20] Bob Dobbs: The Later
[43:21] Bob Dobbs: Innis. And,
[43:22] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[43:22] Bob Dobbs: doesn't hold back,
[43:23] Bob Dobbs: really criticizes some of,
[43:25] Bob Dobbs: from his perspective,
[43:27] Bob Dobbs: Innis'
[43:29] Bob Dobbs: less aesthetic qualities that McLuhan liked to go into.
[43:35] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[43:35] Cameron McEwen: That's also a topic in his letter to Innis in
[43:39] Cameron McEwen: March 51 was the rewrite of that letter.
[43:43] Cameron McEwen: So.
[43:44] Cameron McEwen: Sometime around the turn of 1950-51,
[43:48] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan wrote to Innis and said that if he wanted to understand these media figures better,
[44:00] Cameron McEwen: he would have to turn to art analysis.
[44:02] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[44:04] Bob Dobbs: So when did he finish Mechanical Bride,
[44:07] Bob Dobbs: which comes out in 51?
[44:10] Bob Dobbs: Is he writing that letter before reading The Bias of Communication?
[44:17] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[44:17] Cameron McEwen: you see,
[44:18] Cameron McEwen: the problem with that question is that The Bias of Communication is a collection of essays that were written starting,
[44:28] Cameron McEwen: I think,
[44:28] Cameron McEwen: in 1946 and coming up to 1950 or maybe even 51.
[44:35] Cameron McEwen: And
[44:36] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan had read.
[44:38] Cameron McEwen: some of the essays in Bias and Communication when they were issued.
[44:42] Bob Dobbs: Wow.
[44:44] Cameron McEwen: So,
[44:45] Cameron McEwen: and he was doing that through
[44:47] Cameron McEwen: Easterbrook, that was sort of Innis's secretary.
[44:54] Cameron McEwen: his very good friend and who had been McLuhan friend for decades back in Winnipeg.
[45:01] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[45:02] Cameron McEwen: so
[45:03] Bob Dobbs: I see McLuhan highlighting the bias of communication because it's a great phrase,
[45:08] Bob Dobbs: the bias of communication.
[45:10] Bob Dobbs: Maybe more appropriate for pop culture than empire and communications for his own purposes.
[45:16] Bob Dobbs: So yes,
[45:18] Bob Dobbs: he makes up a story.
[45:21] Bob Dobbs: He's a poet there.
[45:23] Bob Dobbs: about who he's influenced by.
[45:27] Bob Dobbs: Let's say Innocent was alive when McLuhan was saying these kind of things.
[45:30] Bob Dobbs: You say,
[45:31] Bob Dobbs: Marshall,
[45:32] Bob Dobbs: I think you got that wrong there.
[45:34] Bob Dobbs: And that may have been what turned
[45:39] Bob Dobbs: Havelock or alienated Havelock a bit from McLuhan.
[45:44] Bob Dobbs: Those guys knew it had to be different in McLuhan story than what McLuhan was known to be saying.
[45:54] Cameron McEwen: I don't see what you're saying then.
[45:56] Bob Dobbs: Havelock,
[45:56] Bob Dobbs: when he I was there at the debate or dialogue in 78 at Innis College with McLuhan and Havelock,
[46:04] Bob Dobbs: and
[46:05] Bob Dobbs: Havelock was not interested in talking to McLuhan.
[46:09] Bob Dobbs: There was an antagonism there.
[46:11] Bob Dobbs: And I remember
[46:12] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan, it was his turn to talk,
[46:15] Bob Dobbs: and he ended up looking like he was pleading for
[46:18] Bob Dobbs: for Havelock to respond,
[46:19] Bob Dobbs: and McLuhan started to dig at him in a way.
[46:22] Bob Dobbs: There may be transcriptions of those things.
[46:25] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if that comes across in the transcription,
[46:27] Bob Dobbs: but it was anti-environment.
[46:29] Bob Dobbs: And
[46:30] Bob Dobbs: I just assumed that Havelock,
[46:32] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[46:32] Bob Dobbs: was not intrigued by McLuhan.
[46:36] Bob Dobbs: And it may be because he knew that
[46:38] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan was lying,
[46:40] Bob Dobbs: he might think,
[46:41] Bob Dobbs: about his Innis relationship.
[46:43] Bob Dobbs: He may not have liked that.
[46:52] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[46:52] Cameron McEwen: first,
[46:52] Cameron McEwen: I'll just remark that those lectures and the interface between McLuhan and Havelock is on YouTube,
[47:04] Cameron McEwen: so people can see that for themselves and make a judgment.
[47:10] Cameron McEwen: It's perfectly obvious that
[47:13] Cameron McEwen: Havelock was reacting against what,
[47:17] Cameron McEwen: from his perspective,
[47:20] Cameron McEwen: were superficialities.
[47:22] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[47:23] Cameron McEwen: For Havelock,
[47:24] Cameron McEwen: what McLuhan was talking about needed to have a basis,
[47:30] Cameron McEwen: and that basis needed to be articulated.
[47:33] Cameron McEwen: So
[47:34] Cameron McEwen: Havelock kind of represented scholarship in the old sense,
[47:41] Cameron McEwen: and what McLuhan was trying to do was introduce a whole new way of thinking.
[47:48] Bob Dobbs: and yeah
[47:50] Cameron McEwen: In order for Havelock to dialogue with him,
[47:55] Cameron McEwen: and even more important,
[47:56] Cameron McEwen: in order to start the dialogue with anybody,
[48:01] Cameron McEwen: which is what McLuhan was trying to do,
[48:04] Cameron McEwen: then Havelock would have to let go of the need to have the scholarly articles and the footnotes and all that stuff and jump over to where McLuhan was.
[48:18] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[48:19] Cameron McEwen: that kind of tension was going on between them.
[48:23] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[48:23] Bob Dobbs: So,
[48:25] Bob Dobbs: see,
[48:25] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan,
[48:26] Bob Dobbs: as Carpenter pointed out,
[48:28] Bob Dobbs: was a collector of new,
[48:29] Bob Dobbs: interesting ideas.
[48:30] Bob Dobbs: He was a poet of ideas and scenarios.
[48:34] Bob Dobbs: So
[48:34] Bob Dobbs: Innis was just another passing thinker.
[48:38] Bob Dobbs: It wasn't that,
[48:39] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[48:40] Bob Dobbs: even McLuhan said,
[48:40] Bob Dobbs: he's a footnote to all I wrote.
[48:42] Bob Dobbs: Not true.
[48:42] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[48:43] Bob Dobbs: a footnote to what you wrote,
[48:44] Bob Dobbs: Marshall,
[48:44] Bob Dobbs: but not the way you dialogued with culture and people.
[48:48] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[48:49] Cameron McEwen: There's a difference there.
[48:52] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[48:54] Cameron McEwen: but at the same time,
[48:58] Cameron McEwen: Innis was more than just a step that he was going beyond.
[49:05] Cameron McEwen: When
[49:07] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan came to Toronto in 1946,
[49:13] Cameron McEwen: he remained very intrigued with American culture.
[49:16] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[49:18] Cameron McEwen: was constantly thinking of going back to the United States.
[49:22] Cameron McEwen: He thought anti-environment,
[49:24] Cameron McEwen: the intellectual environment,
[49:25] Cameron McEwen: was more dynamic and more promising.
[49:29] Cameron McEwen: And here was Innis,
[49:31] Cameron McEwen: a Canadian,
[49:32] Cameron McEwen: who had a very good feel for the situation of Canada between England and the United States.
[49:41] Cameron McEwen: And as soon as
[49:43] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan tuned into Innis,
[49:45] Cameron McEwen: Um,
[49:46] Cameron McEwen: He realized that Innis was right Innis respect and that McLuhan needed to change.
[49:54] Cameron McEwen: his perspective into a more Canadian one,
[49:59] Cameron McEwen: which isn't to say a fixed one,
[50:02] Cameron McEwen: but a more Canadian slash dynamic one than what he had.
[50:08] Cameron McEwen: So Innis was very important for McLuhan in that respect.
[50:12] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[50:13] Bob Dobbs: We could say,
[50:14] Bob Dobbs: and McLuhan liked to say,
[50:15] Bob Dobbs: we live 200 years every 12 months.
[50:19] Bob Dobbs: You can take a couple of years.
[50:21] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[50:22] Bob Dobbs: 24 months of McLuhan life and intellectual probing,
[50:26] Bob Dobbs: and says 200 years.
[50:27] Bob Dobbs: So during that 200-year phase,
[50:29] Bob Dobbs: he was engaging Innis and the effects of Innis on him.
[50:32] Bob Dobbs: But he quickly goes on to something else in the mid-50s,
[50:35] Bob Dobbs: and then the late
[50:36] Bob Dobbs: 50s, and then the 60s.
[50:37] Bob Dobbs: You see what I'm saying?
[50:39] Cameron McEwen: Oh,
[50:39] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.
[50:40] Cameron McEwen: But I also see that
[50:42] Cameron McEwen: Innis was only one of the figures that McLuhan was engaged with,
[50:48] Cameron McEwen: let's say around 1950.
[50:51] Cameron McEwen: That was the time that McLuhan was constantly talking about the
[50:55] Cameron McEwen: Epiylion form,
[50:56] Cameron McEwen: and strangely enough,
[50:58] Cameron McEwen: the Epiylion form was something that Havelock at that time was discussing in essays that were published in Toronto.
[51:07] Cameron McEwen: Years later,
[51:08] Bob Dobbs: right?
[51:09] Bob Dobbs: Years later.
[51:10] Cameron McEwen: Pardon me?
[51:10] Bob Dobbs: Years later?
[51:11] Bob Dobbs: Published years later?
[51:12] Cameron McEwen: No,
[51:13] Cameron McEwen: no,
[51:14] Cameron McEwen: no.
[51:16] Cameron McEwen: Havelock was talking about the Epiylion form already in the 19...
[51:20] Cameron McEwen: 30s.
[51:22] Cameron McEwen: His first book was published in Canada in 1939.
[51:26] Cameron McEwen: He talks about the Epiylion form and its relationship to Poe in that book.
[51:32] Cameron McEwen: Then in 1946,
[51:35] Cameron McEwen: he published a series of essays in the first issues of Phoenix in Toronto.
[51:42] Cameron McEwen: That could be even called a history of the Epiylion.
[51:48] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan Thank you.
[51:50] Cameron McEwen: was already greatly influenced by Havelock in the 1940s.
[51:53] Cameron McEwen: And he never,
[51:54] Bob Dobbs: it is writing on the,
[51:56] Bob Dobbs: I say Epiylion.
[51:59] Bob Dobbs: That's how I say it,
[52:00] Bob Dobbs: Epiylion.
[52:01] Bob Dobbs: But the Epiylion,
[52:02] Bob Dobbs: he's writing with Theall in his book in the mid-50s on Tennyson.
[52:07] Bob Dobbs: No mention of Havelock.
[52:09] Cameron McEwen: Correct,
[52:10] Cameron McEwen: correct.
[52:11] Cameron McEwen: And that's a little bit typical of McLuhan.
[52:15] Cameron McEwen: He often put on somebody's mask.
[52:19] Cameron McEwen: without attributing anything to that figure.
[52:25] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[52:25] Bob Dobbs: I have an unpublished essay where he says that.
[52:28] Bob Dobbs: He talks about,
[52:29] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[52:30] Bob Dobbs: great artists do that.
[52:31] Bob Dobbs: And he said Joyce was really influenced by Chaucer,
[52:34] Bob Dobbs: but never mentioned it.
[52:36] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[52:37] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[52:37] Cameron McEwen: So there's an essay by Eliot.
[52:43] Cameron McEwen: I can't remember the date or the title of the essay,
[52:47] Cameron McEwen: but it talks about...
[52:49] Cameron McEwen: how great artists always are taking from other people without attribution.
[52:57] Cameron McEwen: And that's more or less the artistic process.
[53:02] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan cites that passage from
[53:10] Cameron McEwen: Joyce over and over and over again.
[53:13] Cameron McEwen: I think he was quite conscious of the fact that he did that.
[53:17] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[53:17] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[53:18] Cameron McEwen: He was also conscious of the fact that that's how chemistry and sciences work.
[53:25] Cameron McEwen: Scientists always are taking up results that have been found by other scientists,
[53:35] Cameron McEwen: and they question them and interrogate them and stuff.
[53:39] Cameron McEwen: And there's no point in science to go through the history of those ideas.
[53:46] Cameron McEwen: Of course,
[53:46] Cameron McEwen: there was a history.
[53:48] Cameron McEwen: And somebody could even be a historian of science,
[53:52] Cameron McEwen: but for the working of science,
[53:54] Cameron McEwen: only the now is important.
[53:56] Cameron McEwen: The history has no importance whatsoever.
[54:00] Cameron McEwen: And McLuhan regarded himself as a scientist in that sense.
[54:05] Bob Dobbs: Yep.
[54:06] Bob Dobbs: And that's why the lack of footnotes in a lot of cases.
[54:10] Bob Dobbs: And what was my thought about that?
[54:13] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[54:15] Bob Dobbs: when I read books,
[54:17] Bob Dobbs: academic books,
[54:18] Bob Dobbs: since the
[54:19] Bob Dobbs: 80s.
[54:20] Bob Dobbs: More and more,
[54:21] Bob Dobbs: especially in the humanities or in the media ecology fields or cultural studies,
[54:27] Bob Dobbs: professors were just processing their reading.
[54:32] Bob Dobbs: So it'd be hundreds of footnotes of all these different books they were reading.
[54:37] Bob Dobbs: And that's the opposite of McLuhan.
[54:40] Bob Dobbs: They had to acknowledge every little idea and maybe even you
[54:46] Bob Dobbs: They had no ideas.
[54:47] Bob Dobbs: They just got ideas from everybody else,
[54:49] Bob Dobbs: but they had to acknowledge them.
[54:51] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan are radical in relation to that.
[54:55] Bob Dobbs: later trend.
[54:58] Cameron McEwen: The idea that in your acknowledgements you have about 15 pages of people that helped your ideas,
[55:06] Cameron McEwen: and then you have 10,000 footnotes,
[55:10] Cameron McEwen: and everybody is doing this for everybody else.
[55:14] Cameron McEwen: It's a way of getting ahead.
[55:17] Cameron McEwen: When your name comes up for tenure,
[55:21] Cameron McEwen: what you need is letters from
[55:24] Cameron McEwen: all of these people that you acknowledge and all of these people that you footnoted and everybody does that for everybody else and everybody gets tenure and nobody and all of these people with tenure are constantly talking about oh we're not giving enough money to the poor in africa and all this sort of stuff but of course the money that would go to the poor in africa is going to the salaries and the bennies and the travel grants
[55:51] Cameron McEwen: of the people that are doing the academic dance.
[55:54] Bob Dobbs: The academic footnoting.
[55:56] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.
[55:58] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[55:59] Bob Dobbs: good point there.
[56:01] Bob Dobbs: So back to the chart.
[56:06] Bob Dobbs: So we come to television,
[56:09] Bob Dobbs: and
[56:10] Bob Dobbs: I don't have it here visible,
[56:13] Bob Dobbs: but in the bottom-up and top-down charts,
[56:16] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[56:17] Bob Dobbs: you have the global theater.
[56:19] Bob Dobbs: I mean,
[56:19] Bob Dobbs: Global Village and then Global Theater.
[56:22] Bob Dobbs: But the Global Theater starts...
[56:25] Bob Dobbs: No,
[56:25] Bob Dobbs: sorry.
[56:26] Bob Dobbs: The Global Village,
[56:27] Bob Dobbs: which actually was going on before electric anti-environment,
[56:30] Bob Dobbs: but
[56:31] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan Global Village,
[56:33] Bob Dobbs: in pop culture terms,
[56:34] Bob Dobbs: begins with the telegraph.
[56:35] Bob Dobbs: So telegraph to radio is the global...
[56:39] Bob Dobbs: No,
[56:40] Bob Dobbs: to television is the Global Village,
[56:43] Bob Dobbs: and then the computer atom bomb satellite,
[56:44] Bob Dobbs: you start moving to Global Theater.
[56:47] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[56:48] Bob Dobbs: those aren't Innis chart.
[56:49] Bob Dobbs: If you go back to the bottom up and top down and see the division,
[56:54] Bob Dobbs: but that's not important.
[56:55] Bob Dobbs: This is largely the interaction of an ongoing process where those global vision and global theater,
[57:03] Bob Dobbs: global village and global theater archetypes or markers are not important.
[57:13] Bob Dobbs: The two charts in the
[57:15] Bob Dobbs: 80s,
[57:16] Bob Dobbs: are didactic.
[57:18] Bob Dobbs: They're showing McLuhan.
[57:20] Bob Dobbs: This one,
[57:20] Bob Dobbs: because I put the two bottom up and top down together,
[57:23] Bob Dobbs: I'm beginning to get the interactive nowness that you're talking about Innis.
[57:28] Bob Dobbs: So it's loosening up a bit.
[57:29] Bob Dobbs: It's still sequential,
[57:32] Bob Dobbs: but you'll see it explodes into the simultaneity of what I call broke spirals in the tiny note chart.
[57:42] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[57:42] Bob Dobbs: so you got computer,
[57:44] Bob Dobbs: no,
[57:45] Bob Dobbs: television.
[57:46] Bob Dobbs: The interaction between movies,
[57:48] Bob Dobbs: radio,
[57:49] Bob Dobbs: telephone,
[57:49] Bob Dobbs: and
[57:50] Bob Dobbs: Roosevelt. And that's 1900,
[57:53] Bob Dobbs: 1918,
[57:54] Bob Dobbs: lockdown one half of the world government.
[57:59] Bob Dobbs: No,
[57:59] Bob Dobbs: wait a minute.
[58:01] Bob Dobbs: Did I do Lincoln?
[58:02] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[58:02] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[58:03] Bob Dobbs: okay.
[58:04] Bob Dobbs: Lockdown half the world government.
[58:10] Bob Dobbs: That's World War I.
[58:13] Bob Dobbs: There's still a lot of the...
[58:14] Bob Dobbs: global village to dominate,
[58:18] Bob Dobbs: invade.
[58:20] Bob Dobbs: And Roosevelt is in 1932,
[58:23] Bob Dobbs: which is dated beyond 1900,
[58:25] Bob Dobbs: 1918.
[58:26] Bob Dobbs: So this,
[58:26] Bob Dobbs: again,
[58:28] Bob Dobbs: gets your,
[58:29] Bob Dobbs: what you like,
[58:30] Bob Dobbs: the flow beyond tactility.
[58:34] Bob Dobbs: It's a blurring movement going on,
[58:37] Bob Dobbs: right?
[58:38] Bob Dobbs: So if someone just brought a literate eye to this and said,
[58:41] Bob Dobbs: well,
[58:41] Bob Dobbs: 1900,
[58:42] Bob Dobbs: 1918 locked down half the world government.
[58:45] Bob Dobbs: Rolls on 32,
[58:46] Bob Dobbs: how's that fit?
[58:47] Bob Dobbs: So that was intentional to show the effects over a span of time,
[58:53] Bob Dobbs: preceding and consolidating,
[58:55] Bob Dobbs: which you've already pointed out.
[58:58] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[58:58] Cameron McEwen: and which can already be seen in the Lincoln line.
[59:01] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[59:03] Bob Dobbs: So it's pretty obvious what I'm doing there.
[59:06] Bob Dobbs: So then you go to the computer in Atom Bomb.
[59:10] Bob Dobbs: You've got the automobile and the...
[59:14] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[59:14] Bob Dobbs: Kuhn,
[59:14] Bob Dobbs: what the heck is that?
[59:17] Bob Dobbs: But before we go into that automobile,
[59:19] Bob Dobbs: that's the beatnik,
[59:21] Bob Dobbs: the 50s.
[59:22] Bob Dobbs: The beatniks are racing around as cultural enemies.
[59:26] Bob Dobbs: It's interesting,
[59:26] Bob Dobbs: right?
[59:27] Bob Dobbs: They're using the automobile,
[59:29] Bob Dobbs: or the automobile is using them,
[59:32] Bob Dobbs: the Jack Kerouac and Cassidy and those guys,
[59:36] Bob Dobbs: Ginsburg and Gerd Stern,
[59:39] Bob Dobbs: who becomes an important colleague of McLuhan.
[59:44] Bob Dobbs: But in the
[59:44] Bob Dobbs: 50s, the automobile is the rogue medium in relation to this increasing paranoid concentration camp that the computer and the atom bomb is bringing in.
[59:57] Bob Dobbs: You get it?
[59:58] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[59:58] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[59:58] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[59:59] Cameron McEwen: So the automobile is,
[1:00:00] Cameron McEwen: quote,
[1:00:00] Cameron McEwen: unquote,
[1:00:01] Cameron McEwen: on the road.
[1:00:03] Bob Dobbs: On the rope?
[1:00:04] Bob Dobbs: Or on the road?
[1:00:06] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:00:07] Bob Dobbs: On the road,
[1:00:08] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[1:00:09] Bob Dobbs: On the ropes,
[1:00:10] Bob Dobbs: too.
[1:00:10] Bob Dobbs: But the,
[1:00:12] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:00:12] Bob Dobbs: and then Kennedy gets knocked out,
[1:00:16] Bob Dobbs: and it's the lockdown of the,
[1:00:17] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:00:18] Bob Dobbs: I didn't mention,
[1:00:20] Bob Dobbs: I didn't explain the industrial government of the movies phase or the electrical government,
[1:00:26] Bob Dobbs: but...
[1:00:28] Bob Dobbs: 1800,
[1:00:28] Bob Dobbs: 1840 is a hardware time.
[1:00:30] Bob Dobbs: 1840,
[1:00:32] Bob Dobbs: 1900,
[1:00:32] Bob Dobbs: you start to get into electrical,
[1:00:34] Bob Dobbs: even though it is later.
[1:00:35] Bob Dobbs: And radio is not even on the horizon,
[1:00:37] Bob Dobbs: but radio is being built by Ben Franklin in 1750 when he's doing the kite stuff.
[1:00:44] Bob Dobbs: It's all building on each other.
[1:00:48] Bob Dobbs: So you got half the world government,
[1:00:50] Bob Dobbs: World War I,
[1:00:51] Bob Dobbs: and then World War II is 1918,
[1:00:53] Bob Dobbs: 1945.
[1:00:57] Bob Dobbs: in the computer and atom bomb situation.
[1:00:59] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:01:00] Bob Dobbs: a quark tune,
[1:01:04] Bob Dobbs: quarks were named in 1963 by Murray Gell-Mann,
[1:01:11] Bob Dobbs: Gell-Mann,
[1:01:12] Bob Dobbs: I think.
[1:01:12] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:01:14] Bob Dobbs: And he got the word from Finnegans Wake.
[1:01:16] Bob Dobbs: And when McLuhan says in Mechanical Bride,
[1:01:24] Bob Dobbs: 1951,
[1:01:25] Bob Dobbs: that the ads...
[1:01:26] Bob Dobbs: and comics are characters,
[1:01:30] Bob Dobbs: the person or the hardware media are starting to get swallowed up in the global theater,
[1:01:39] Bob Dobbs: computer atom bomb phase.
[1:01:41] Bob Dobbs: So
[1:01:42] Bob Dobbs: I wanted to show that what McLuhan in the
[1:01:45] Bob Dobbs: 50s calls the mass man is super civilized and subatomic.
[1:01:51] Bob Dobbs: We are subatomic.
[1:01:52] Bob Dobbs: We're electrical particles.
[1:01:56] Bob Dobbs: mid-20th century.
[1:01:57] Bob Dobbs: So the media,
[1:01:59] Bob Dobbs: like a cartoon,
[1:02:01] Bob Dobbs: is itself becoming tiny.
[1:02:03] Bob Dobbs: So I call it a Kuhn.
[1:02:06] Bob Dobbs: That's what a cartoon slash quark.
[1:02:09] Bob Dobbs: So that's a neo,
[1:02:12] Bob Dobbs: a neologism,
[1:02:13] Bob Dobbs: what is it?
[1:02:14] Bob Dobbs: Syllogism?
[1:02:15] Bob Dobbs: Neologism?
[1:02:16] Bob Dobbs: What do they call when you make up words?
[1:02:19] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:02:19] Cameron McEwen: a neologism.
[1:02:23] Bob Dobbs: Or neologism.
[1:02:26] Bob Dobbs: Something like that.
[1:02:27] Bob Dobbs: Anyways,
[1:02:29] Bob Dobbs: so I stick Kuhn in there for a little creativity or improvisation,
[1:02:35] Bob Dobbs: but I'm trying to indicate that media are becoming subatomic and super civilized like people were in the media mix after
[1:02:50] Bob Dobbs: 1945,
[1:02:52] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:02:52] Bob Dobbs: in the atomic bomb world.
[1:02:55] Bob Dobbs: The computer world.
[1:03:00] Cameron McEwen: What I'm not following here is that you've been talking about technological
[1:03:15] Cameron McEwen: and sociological and individual changes in form.
[1:03:24] Cameron McEwen: In Gestalt,
[1:03:26] Cameron McEwen: in possibility.
[1:03:28] Cameron McEwen: But when you talk about something becoming small,
[1:03:33] Cameron McEwen: becoming tiny,
[1:03:35] Cameron McEwen: becoming a sub-particle,
[1:03:40] Cameron McEwen: you seem to get into a literal world,
[1:03:48] Cameron McEwen: a world where you look and you say,
[1:03:51] Cameron McEwen: okay,
[1:03:51] Cameron McEwen: that's big and that's small.
[1:03:53] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:03:54] Cameron McEwen: Whereas before,
[1:03:56] Cameron McEwen: when you're looking at history,
[1:03:57] Cameron McEwen: it's not literal at all because the technological forms that you're dealing with are anticipatory.
[1:04:07] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:04:09] Cameron McEwen: In a literal sense,
[1:04:10] Cameron McEwen: they're not there.
[1:04:12] Cameron McEwen: It's their effect that's there.
[1:04:14] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:04:15] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[1:04:15] Cameron McEwen: But when you say something is tiny,
[1:04:17] Cameron McEwen: you seem to be saying that it's literally tiny.
[1:04:21] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:04:21] Cameron McEwen: it's…
[1:04:21] Cameron McEwen: I don't get that.
[1:04:23] Bob Dobbs: No,
[1:04:23] Bob Dobbs: it's perceived as tiny as an effect because mass man begins to think he's tiny against these big electronic anti-environment.
[1:04:34] Bob Dobbs: Ah,
[1:04:35] Cameron McEwen: okay.
[1:04:36] Cameron McEwen: So you're speaking kind of from the inside out rather than from the outside in.
[1:04:42] Bob Dobbs: And I'm saying the media themselves begin to feel they're tiny and transitional.
[1:04:51] Bob Dobbs: ethereal or ephemeral.
[1:04:57] Cameron McEwen: Could you say that,
[1:04:59] Cameron McEwen: for example,
[1:04:59] Cameron McEwen: in regards to the atom bomb,
[1:05:02] Cameron McEwen: that people feel powerless and that smallness on their part reflects a
[1:05:18] Cameron McEwen: dominant or dominance that are themselves?
[1:05:27] Cameron McEwen: powerless at the level of archetypes.
[1:05:29] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[1:05:30] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan said about the atomic bomb,
[1:05:32] Bob Dobbs: it only had a short life as anti-environment,
[1:05:36] Bob Dobbs: unforeseen.
[1:05:37] Bob Dobbs: It quickly got managed or programmed.
[1:05:42] Bob Dobbs: And what the
[1:05:46] Bob Dobbs: American
[1:05:47] Bob Dobbs: CIA or military did by the mid-'50s is they went around to all the countries that were.
[1:05:55] Bob Dobbs: Thinking of developing bombs or trying to and said if you you set off the smallest bomb
[1:06:01] Bob Dobbs: In new york city or something we will nuke your whole country
[1:06:07] Bob Dobbs: That so they had that was programming controlling anti-environment
[1:06:12] Bob Dobbs: And so anybody who was thinking of bombing the united states
[1:06:17] Bob Dobbs: Would have to contend
[1:06:19] Bob Dobbs: With their whole culture being wiped out.
[1:06:23] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[1:06:24] Bob Dobbs: So this was the cold world that McLuhan predicted or commented on in Playboy magazine in December 68.
[1:06:33] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:06:33] Bob Dobbs: mind your media man or you catch a cold environment.
[1:06:36] Bob Dobbs: On the secret Big Brother level,
[1:06:39] Bob Dobbs: this was the first cold management technique.
[1:06:42] Bob Dobbs: Just go around and say,
[1:06:43] Bob Dobbs: hey,
[1:06:43] Bob Dobbs: you try to do something with us,
[1:06:45] Bob Dobbs: we'll wipe you out completely.
[1:06:48] Bob Dobbs: And then that got developed as more fears of rogue countries.
[1:06:53] Bob Dobbs: rogue dictators or whatever developed the might develop the bomb we're still doing it today so i thought it was interesting McLuhan called that it was no longer anti-environment it became programming controlled yeah yeah hello um McLuhan famously in 1939 said there would be no war no
[1:07:15] Cameron McEwen: problem and uh i'm not sure that he wasn't too optimistic about the um
[1:07:23] Cameron McEwen: management of modern weaponry.
[1:07:26] Cameron McEwen: He often said that there could no longer be a nuclear war because the consequences were so large and therefore we return to a smaller environment.
[1:07:41] Cameron McEwen: But just because the consequences are so large,
[1:07:47] Cameron McEwen: unfortunately,
[1:07:49] Cameron McEwen: does not mean that it might not happen.
[1:07:53] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[1:07:53] Bob Dobbs: but he's been pretty good.
[1:07:54] Bob Dobbs: It hasn't happened yet.
[1:07:56] Bob Dobbs: So he's pretty good so far.
[1:07:58] Bob Dobbs: He saw that TV was a bigger threat than the atom bomb.
[1:08:02] Bob Dobbs: So the atom bomb got programmed and sidelined as populations and management got distracted by the effects of television and computers and satellites on their Ivins,
[1:08:13] Bob Dobbs: on their citizens.
[1:08:16] Bob Dobbs: And that became a big war that some say...
[1:08:21] Bob Dobbs: In the United States was the LSD countercultural war was,
[1:08:25] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan says that in 69,
[1:08:27] Bob Dobbs: blast LSD as,
[1:08:29] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:08:30] Bob Dobbs: chemical bacteriological warfare.
[1:08:32] Bob Dobbs: Maybe he just said chemical,
[1:08:34] Bob Dobbs: chemical warfare.
[1:08:36] Bob Dobbs: And yet in 66,
[1:08:37] Bob Dobbs: he's writing about it's the greatest art form of that period,
[1:08:42] Bob Dobbs: LSD.
[1:08:43] Bob Dobbs: He gave way more interesting and...
[1:08:49] Bob Dobbs: illustrative effects of the global theater than any other art form of the day.
[1:08:54] Bob Dobbs: You ever seen that article?
[1:08:56] Cameron McEwen: I don't know that I have.
[1:08:58] Cameron McEwen: I think what you're talking about is interesting.
[1:09:01] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:09:01] Bob Dobbs: I'll have to send that to you.
[1:09:04] Bob Dobbs: He reviews Masters in Houston,
[1:09:06] Bob Dobbs: I think it is,
[1:09:08] Bob Dobbs: the varieties of psychedelic experience.
[1:09:10] Bob Dobbs: And he says,
[1:09:12] Bob Dobbs: obviously,
[1:09:13] Bob Dobbs: psychedelics are the closest anti-environment we need to this.
[1:09:19] Bob Dobbs: tremendous global theater anti-environment in.
[1:09:21] Bob Dobbs: And he says all the Gutenberg arts don't make it as anti-environment.
[1:09:26] Bob Dobbs: But three years later,
[1:09:28] Bob Dobbs: he's saying,
[1:09:29] Bob Dobbs: uh-oh,
[1:09:30] Bob Dobbs: this has been misused or gotten out of hand,
[1:09:34] Bob Dobbs: and now it's not an anti-environment in a way.
[1:09:39] Cameron McEwen: And is that a published article or an unpublished one?
[1:09:43] Bob Dobbs: Might be unpublished.
[1:09:46] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:09:46] Bob Dobbs: I got it from the archives.
[1:09:47] Bob Dobbs: I think it's unpublished.
[1:09:50] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:09:51] Cameron McEwen: So let me give you a little background here that's pretty interesting.
[1:09:56] Cameron McEwen: That is that his best friend for decades,
[1:10:04] Cameron McEwen: Bernard Muller-Thym,
[1:10:06] Cameron McEwen: who was the best man at the wedding,
[1:10:09] Cameron McEwen: he was the godfather of both Eric and Mary.
[1:10:14] Bob Dobbs: And probably
[1:10:15] Bob Dobbs: Terry, the twin,
[1:10:16] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:10:16] Bob Dobbs: They're twins.
[1:10:18] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:10:18] Cameron McEwen: but they had to have different godparents for the two twins.
[1:10:24] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[1:10:24] Bob Dobbs: okay.
[1:10:25] Cameron McEwen: And they didn't at the time,
[1:10:27] Cameron McEwen: they didn't even want to double up
[1:10:30] Cameron McEwen: Muller-Thym as both Eric and Mary.
[1:10:33] Cameron McEwen: But there was some kind of screw up.
[1:10:37] Cameron McEwen: They had to come up with a godfather at the last minute.
[1:10:41] Cameron McEwen: And so they tapped Muller-Thym again.
[1:10:46] Cameron McEwen: So
[1:10:47] Cameron McEwen: Muller-Thym was a huge influence on
[1:10:52] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan, especially.
[1:10:55] Cameron McEwen: family life.
[1:10:57] Cameron McEwen: Muller-Thym had a great wife,
[1:10:59] Cameron McEwen: Mary,
[1:11:01] Cameron McEwen: who was a close friend of
[1:11:03] Cameron McEwen: Corinne, and
[1:11:07] Cameron McEwen: Muller-Thym and his wife eventually had eight children and kind of gave a living picture of a
[1:11:18] Cameron McEwen: Catholic nuclear family to
[1:11:21] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan and his wife.
[1:11:23] Cameron McEwen: that they attempted to emulate.
[1:11:28] Cameron McEwen: So after the war,
[1:11:31] Cameron McEwen: Muller-Thym had been working for the Navy intelligence in
[1:11:37] Cameron McEwen: New York,
[1:11:40] Cameron McEwen: out of
[1:11:41] Cameron McEwen: Columbia University,
[1:11:43] Cameron McEwen: and then became a market analyst working for McKinsey Channer Company.
[1:11:48] Cameron McEwen: And one of the people that was an associate
[1:11:52] Cameron McEwen: of his in
[1:11:54] Cameron McEwen: McKinsey and who was a author of several articles,
[1:12:02] Cameron McEwen: I think.
[1:12:03] Bob Dobbs: What did you say was the name?
[1:12:05] Bob Dobbs: Ian McKinsey?
[1:12:07] Cameron McEwen: No,
[1:12:07] Cameron McEwen: McKinsey Associates.
[1:12:09] Bob Dobbs: Oh.
[1:12:10] Cameron McEwen: The name is still the largest business consulting firm in the world,
[1:12:16] Cameron McEwen: I believe.
[1:12:17] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[1:12:18] Bob Dobbs: I thought you said E.
[1:12:19] Bob Dobbs: McKinsey,
[1:12:20] Bob Dobbs: which was Wyndham Lewis name for McLuhan in
[1:12:23] Bob Dobbs: Self-Condemned.
[1:12:25] Cameron McEwen: No, no,
[1:12:26] Cameron McEwen: no.
[1:12:26] Cameron McEwen: I'm talking about the fact that Muller-Thym was a partner up until like 1953 or something in McKinsey Associates.
[1:12:36] Cameron McEwen: And McKinsey was doing consulting for
[1:12:41] Cameron McEwen: IBM and GE and everybody else.
[1:12:45] Cameron McEwen: And so...
[1:12:46] Cameron McEwen: The Muller-Thym may have helped
[1:12:48] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan get a small foothold with some of these people.
[1:12:54] Cameron McEwen: But at any rate,
[1:12:55] Cameron McEwen: the close associate of the Muller-Thym at
[1:13:03] Cameron McEwen: McKinsey was a very early advocate of LSD and published on it in the
[1:13:14] Bob Dobbs: 1940s. Who was that?
[1:13:16] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:13:17] Cameron McEwen: I'm trying to think of his name.
[1:13:20] Cameron McEwen: I'll look it up and I'll supply it to you as we go along.
[1:13:32] Cameron McEwen: The fact is that
[1:13:34] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan knew from
[1:13:37] Cameron McEwen: Muller-Thym already about the potential benefits and potential problems.
[1:13:46] Cameron McEwen: of
[1:13:48] Cameron McEwen: LSD already in the
[1:13:50] Cameron McEwen: 40s. So at the same time that he was influenced by Innis and by Havelock and was tuned into cybernetics by Gideon and
[1:14:04] Cameron McEwen: Don Thiel,
[1:14:06] Cameron McEwen: at the same time that all that was going on,
[1:14:09] Cameron McEwen: he was already knowledgeable.
[1:14:14] Cameron McEwen: or relatively knowledgeable about
[1:14:17] Cameron McEwen: LSD through
[1:14:19] Cameron McEwen: Muller-Thym. Yeah,
[1:14:21] Bob Dobbs: it makes me think of a person like Ezra Pound,
[1:14:24] Bob Dobbs: who knew everybody in London and then Paris.
[1:14:26] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:14:29] Bob Dobbs: he's a magnate,
[1:14:31] Bob Dobbs: and he meets and engages lots of people.
[1:14:35] Bob Dobbs: This is what McLuhan was.
[1:14:37] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[1:14:38] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.
[1:14:41] Cameron McEwen: He appreciated very much that he had been lucky in meeting especially these great European figures like Lewis and Gideon.
[1:14:54] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:14:55] Bob Dobbs: and if he had been born earlier,
[1:14:58] Bob Dobbs: he could have been in Paris in the 20s.
[1:15:01] Bob Dobbs: Like,
[1:15:04] Bob Dobbs: who's that Canadian author?
[1:15:06] Bob Dobbs: McClellan,
[1:15:08] Bob Dobbs: the guy that hung out with
[1:15:11] Bob Dobbs: Joyce and everybody.
[1:15:12] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:15:13] Cameron McEwen: I know who you mean.
[1:15:14] Cameron McEwen: Callaghan,
[1:15:15] Bob Dobbs: Morley Callaghan.
[1:15:16] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:15:17] Cameron McEwen: exactly,
[1:15:18] Cameron McEwen: exactly.
[1:15:19] Bob Dobbs: But I think McClellan,
[1:15:20] Bob Dobbs: if he was the way he was in the
[1:15:23] Bob Dobbs: 50s,
[1:15:24] Bob Dobbs: back in the 20s,
[1:15:25] Bob Dobbs: he'd be like Ezra Pound.
[1:15:28] Bob Dobbs: He'd be a key guy,
[1:15:30] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:15:30] Bob Dobbs: switchboard with all kinds of people in all kinds of fields.
[1:15:34] Bob Dobbs: So in that sense,
[1:15:36] Bob Dobbs: Lewis was like that in a way,
[1:15:37] Bob Dobbs: but more isolationist.
[1:15:39] Bob Dobbs: And Joyce knew everybody.
[1:15:41] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan distilled that vortices milieu in himself the way he was.
[1:15:49] Bob Dobbs: He was the 20s brought back,
[1:15:51] Bob Dobbs: so to speak.
[1:15:52] Bob Dobbs: in the way he relates to all kinds of fields of experience and information.
[1:15:58] Bob Dobbs: We don't,
[1:15:59] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:16:00] Bob Dobbs: the image that you see of this,
[1:16:02] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:16:03] Bob Dobbs: dour professor on the back of the Medium as a Massage album or any other pictures of him,
[1:16:09] Bob Dobbs: he gets a little more playful in the
[1:16:11] Bob Dobbs: 70s wearing the Scottish stuff,
[1:16:13] Bob Dobbs: but he looks quite professorial or staid in the published photos of himself in various magazines.
[1:16:23] Bob Dobbs: in the 50s and 60s.
[1:16:24] Bob Dobbs: But he was a one.
[1:16:27] Cameron McEwen: Especially in the pictures in the UT Varsity newspaper.
[1:16:33] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:16:33] Cameron McEwen: It's just funny.
[1:16:36] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:16:36] Cameron McEwen: so
[1:16:37] Cameron McEwen: I agree with you that McLuhan was a kind of switchboard in himself.
[1:16:41] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:16:41] Cameron McEwen: He wasn't good like Pound was,
[1:16:45] Cameron McEwen: for example,
[1:16:47] Cameron McEwen: in actually having these friendships.
[1:16:51] Cameron McEwen: He was terrible at most friendships because he needed to talk so much.
[1:16:58] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:16:59] Bob Dobbs: he was like Lewis in that sense.
[1:17:01] Bob Dobbs: He was alienating.
[1:17:03] Cameron McEwen: Correct.
[1:17:05] Cameron McEwen: But
[1:17:06] Cameron McEwen: Lewis alienated through his temper,
[1:17:08] Cameron McEwen: and McLuhan alienated through his energy.
[1:17:11] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[1:17:12] Bob Dobbs: He was super energetic.
[1:17:14] Bob Dobbs: but many on the Monday night seminars,
[1:17:18] Bob Dobbs: he was...
[1:17:19] Bob Dobbs: Quiet and attentive a lot.
[1:17:21] Bob Dobbs: He didn't have to talk so much in seminars.
[1:17:23] Bob Dobbs: He would end up talking.
[1:17:25] Bob Dobbs: But you saw him learning from whatever the jest of honor provided.
[1:17:31] Bob Dobbs: That's what they called the jest of honor,
[1:17:33] Bob Dobbs: not the guest of honor,
[1:17:34] Bob Dobbs: the jest of honor.
[1:17:37] Bob Dobbs: He,
[1:17:38] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:17:38] Bob Dobbs: was quiet.
[1:17:40] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[1:17:41] Cameron McEwen: I think he had
[1:17:43] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan gradually learned that he couldn't.
[1:17:48] Cameron McEwen: communicate,
[1:17:49] Cameron McEwen: he couldn't educate by talking.
[1:17:53] Cameron McEwen: People tuned out,
[1:17:55] Cameron McEwen: people were already experiencing what he talked about in a way that was antithetic to what he was talking about.
[1:18:03] Cameron McEwen: So that had the effect of making him tired and making him more inclined to listen than he had been.
[1:18:13] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:18:14] Bob Dobbs: maybe.
[1:18:15] Bob Dobbs: And maybe he slowed down.
[1:18:18] Bob Dobbs: from his operations and that and his illnesses.
[1:18:22] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:18:23] Cameron McEwen: I think that's true.
[1:18:24] Cameron McEwen: I think that's true.
[1:18:25] Bob Dobbs: But he still had energy,
[1:18:26] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:18:29] Bob Dobbs: at some point during the day.
[1:18:30] Bob Dobbs: You could see it.
[1:18:33] Bob Dobbs: He'd get energized.
[1:18:35] Cameron McEwen: I think he was,
[1:18:37] Cameron McEwen: my understanding isn't as personal and as close as your understanding of him in the
[1:18:46] Cameron McEwen: 70s, but I have the idea that
[1:18:48] Cameron McEwen: But he kind of flipped back and forth between a kind of hyper frenetic activity and a need to lie down and snooze.
[1:18:59] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:18:59] Bob Dobbs: that's right.
[1:19:01] Bob Dobbs: Let's see.
[1:19:04] Bob Dobbs: So lockdown half world government,
[1:19:07] Bob Dobbs: lockdown the other half.
[1:19:10] Bob Dobbs: Trying to remember what I actually meant.
[1:19:12] Bob Dobbs: I think it's World War
[1:19:15] Bob Dobbs: I and then World War
[1:19:16] Bob Dobbs: II. Two different.
[1:19:18] Bob Dobbs: It was a vaster scenario in the Second War,
[1:19:22] Bob Dobbs: and the American anti-environment over the whole globe.
[1:19:27] Bob Dobbs: Not so much.
[1:19:28] Cameron McEwen: I think you were probably thinking in part of the difference between League of Nations and United Nations.
[1:19:35] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[1:19:36] Bob Dobbs: yep.
[1:19:37] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:19:38] Bob Dobbs: and the Americans were dominating the Second One.
[1:19:41] Bob Dobbs: So in the cartoon,
[1:19:45] Bob Dobbs: the...
[1:19:46] Bob Dobbs: In the 50s,
[1:19:47] Bob Dobbs: you got television.
[1:19:48] Bob Dobbs: So its content,
[1:19:50] Bob Dobbs: at least on the news level,
[1:19:51] Bob Dobbs: is...
[1:19:53] Bob Dobbs: Comics,
[1:19:53] Bob Dobbs: advertising,
[1:19:54] Bob Dobbs: movies,
[1:19:55] Bob Dobbs: radio,
[1:19:56] Bob Dobbs: sports.
[1:19:58] Bob Dobbs: I was thinking of the image,
[1:20:01] Bob Dobbs: the icon taking over.
[1:20:03] Bob Dobbs: But there were so many of them that it was tiny.
[1:20:05] Bob Dobbs: And you'll see in the tiny note chart,
[1:20:08] Bob Dobbs: I call the whole chart a particle accelerator situation.
[1:20:14] Bob Dobbs: You know?
[1:20:15] Bob Dobbs: So that's what Kuhn is indicating.
[1:20:21] Cameron McEwen: You could say that.
[1:20:22] Cameron McEwen: But it's the explosion of the atomic bomb,
[1:20:27] Cameron McEwen: but on a different level.
[1:20:28] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:20:29] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:20:30] Bob Dobbs: So the let's see about Roosevelt.
[1:20:37] Bob Dobbs: He's the longest president,
[1:20:39] Bob Dobbs: so to speak.
[1:20:40] Bob Dobbs: And then Kennedy is one of the shortest.
[1:20:44] Bob Dobbs: What pattern would be in that?
[1:20:48] Bob Dobbs: The turnover of.
[1:20:51] Bob Dobbs: political figures.
[1:20:53] Bob Dobbs: It's more and more celebrity who is taking over politics.
[1:20:57] Bob Dobbs: So
[1:20:59] Bob Dobbs: Kennedy can be easily forgotten.
[1:21:02] Cameron McEwen: You could say that the difference between television and computer and atom bomb,
[1:21:10] Cameron McEwen: if we go down vertically on the left-hand column,
[1:21:15] Cameron McEwen: the difference between television and computer and atom bomb is that the
[1:21:21] Cameron McEwen: electrical technology has increased in speed.
[1:21:26] Cameron McEwen: It's the same electrical technology,
[1:21:29] Cameron McEwen: but it's much faster.
[1:21:31] Cameron McEwen: And because it's much faster,
[1:21:32] Cameron McEwen: there's new possibilities,
[1:21:34] Cameron McEwen: both positive and negative.
[1:21:37] Cameron McEwen: And that kind of acceleration,
[1:21:41] Cameron McEwen: you could say,
[1:21:42] Cameron McEwen: happens between Roosevelt and Kennedy.
[1:21:46] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:21:46] Bob Dobbs: you have a long,
[1:21:47] Bob Dobbs: stretched out...
[1:21:48] Bob Dobbs: Remember,
[1:21:48] Bob Dobbs: Innis is...
[1:21:50] Bob Dobbs: Definition,
[1:21:51] Bob Dobbs: the time-based civilizations like Samaria stretched over thousands or hundreds of thousands of years,
[1:22:00] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:22:01] Bob Dobbs: Whereas the space-based,
[1:22:03] Bob Dobbs: the ones that got out and dominated,
[1:22:06] Bob Dobbs: they got increasingly short lives.
[1:22:10] Bob Dobbs: So
[1:22:11] Bob Dobbs: Roosevelt is the time-based situation.
[1:22:18] Bob Dobbs: um,
[1:22:19] Bob Dobbs: Babylon,
[1:22:20] Bob Dobbs: I guess.
[1:22:20] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:22:20] Cameron McEwen: like stone,
[1:22:22] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:22:25] Cameron McEwen: What?
[1:22:26] Cameron McEwen: You're basically contrasting what Innis would call stone and vapor.
[1:22:30] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:22:31] Cameron McEwen: Or stone and papyrus.
[1:22:33] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[1:22:34] Bob Dobbs: So Roosevelt stretched out,
[1:22:36] Bob Dobbs: so he's stone and time,
[1:22:37] Bob Dobbs: and Kennedy is the shorter space domination and problems that the American anti-environment.
[1:22:48] Bob Dobbs: forced to deal with the constant state of crisis.
[1:22:52] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:22:52] Cameron McEwen: so that's a,
[1:22:54] Cameron McEwen: as you talk,
[1:22:55] Cameron McEwen: I'm beginning to understand the line better,
[1:22:58] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:22:59] Cameron McEwen: So at the archetypal level,
[1:23:01] Cameron McEwen: you could say you have the dancing quark tunes,
[1:23:07] Cameron McEwen: which are relatively small to each other,
[1:23:11] Cameron McEwen: simply because interaction has increased more than it ever was.
[1:23:16] Bob Dobbs: Yep.
[1:23:17] Cameron McEwen: which is the same thing that's happened between television and computer.
[1:23:22] Cameron McEwen: And so then if you think of the opposition to that at the level of culture,
[1:23:29] Cameron McEwen: then it's the automobile conceived as a trip from New York to
[1:23:35] Cameron McEwen: Los Angeles,
[1:23:36] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:23:37] Cameron McEwen: It's an attempt to reinstall an old sense.
[1:23:45] Cameron McEwen: of empire,
[1:23:46] Cameron McEwen: an old sense of time.
[1:23:49] Cameron McEwen: It's confused with freedom,
[1:23:52] Cameron McEwen: but it's actually a replay of something that's past.
[1:23:56] Bob Dobbs: Yep,
[1:23:57] Bob Dobbs: that's right.
[1:23:58] Bob Dobbs: Remember,
[1:24:00] Bob Dobbs: the cartoon also refers to the domination of Disney coming in in that period.
[1:24:10] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:24:10] Bob Dobbs: so the next one is Satellite and Laser Beam.
[1:24:15] Bob Dobbs: Laser beam is 1960.
[1:24:17] Bob Dobbs: That's when it was discovered,
[1:24:19] Bob Dobbs: invented.
[1:24:19] Bob Dobbs: So this is 1945 to 1960,
[1:24:26] Bob Dobbs: lockdown solar government,
[1:24:27] Bob Dobbs: which means satellite,
[1:24:29] Bob Dobbs: global theater stuff.
[1:24:33] Bob Dobbs: The beginning of,
[1:24:38] Bob Dobbs: well,
[1:24:38] Bob Dobbs: it's called Echelon.
[1:24:40] Bob Dobbs: Echelon is the...
[1:24:43] Bob Dobbs: The secret network between Britain,
[1:24:46] Bob Dobbs: America,
[1:24:48] Bob Dobbs: New Zealand,
[1:24:50] Bob Dobbs: Canada,
[1:24:50] Bob Dobbs: Australia.
[1:24:51] Bob Dobbs: It's the secret satellite management.
[1:24:55] Bob Dobbs: which starts in the 60s.
[1:24:57] Bob Dobbs: Have you ever heard of Echelon?
[1:25:01] Cameron McEwen: No,
[1:25:02] Cameron McEwen: but
[1:25:03] Cameron McEwen: I know what you're talking about.
[1:25:05] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:25:05] Bob Dobbs: global surveillance.
[1:25:08] Bob Dobbs: And so,
[1:25:10] Bob Dobbs: go ahead.
[1:25:11] Cameron McEwen: I just wanted to ask,
[1:25:13] Cameron McEwen: last time you said that the tiny note chart grew out of two of these lines.
[1:25:23] Cameron McEwen: I think
[1:25:24] Cameron McEwen: the satellite and laser beam line is not yet.
[1:25:28] Cameron McEwen: Correct.
[1:25:29] Cameron McEwen: Okay.
[1:25:30] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:25:31] Bob Dobbs: it's going to be holiopathic CLECI probes and Anthropomorphic Physical.
[1:25:35] Cameron McEwen: Gotcha.
[1:25:35] Cameron McEwen: Okay.
[1:25:36] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:25:38] Bob Dobbs: so this is the completion of the anti-environment,
[1:25:46] Bob Dobbs: which bureaucratically is the beginning of solar government,
[1:25:50] Bob Dobbs: where you have the satellites.
[1:25:52] Bob Dobbs: Starting to spy.
[1:25:55] Bob Dobbs: I remember
[1:25:56] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan had a dialogue with Bucky Fuller,
[1:26:01] Bob Dobbs: and it was in the Innis Herald in the
[1:26:03] Bob Dobbs: 70s, and
[1:26:04] Bob Dobbs: Fuller gave the shocking information.
[1:26:06] Bob Dobbs: He'd just been watching some government photographs from the satellites,
[1:26:12] Bob Dobbs: and he was saying,
[1:26:12] Bob Dobbs: man,
[1:26:13] Bob Dobbs: they're going to be able to see the license plates on your car.
[1:26:17] Bob Dobbs: You know?
[1:26:18] Bob Dobbs: That was a startling image.
[1:26:21] Bob Dobbs: early to mid-70s about the increasing power of satellite surveillance.
[1:26:27] Bob Dobbs: That's 50 years ago.
[1:26:30] Bob Dobbs: So it's amazing when you look at...
[1:26:33] Bob Dobbs: Go ahead.
[1:26:34] Cameron McEwen: I just wanted to say the other day I found an essay of McLuhan from 1964,
[1:26:42] Cameron McEwen: I think it was,
[1:26:44] Cameron McEwen: where he was talking about the anti-environment.
[1:26:50] Cameron McEwen: There weren't any satellites.
[1:26:52] Bob Dobbs: yet.
[1:26:52] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[1:26:52] Cameron McEwen: He's already talking about it.
[1:26:54] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:26:55] Bob Dobbs: He has in 62,
[1:26:57] Bob Dobbs: I think,
[1:26:58] Bob Dobbs: he's talking about the anti-environment turning television cliché to archetype,
[1:27:02] Bob Dobbs: not art form,
[1:27:03] Bob Dobbs: archetype.
[1:27:05] Bob Dobbs: So that's two years before your article.
[1:27:07] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:27:08] Bob Dobbs: he was on it.
[1:27:09] Bob Dobbs: He was studying the effects before the figure showed up,
[1:27:12] Bob Dobbs: so to speak.
[1:27:16] Bob Dobbs: But when I look at these phases and you think of the speed,
[1:27:21] Bob Dobbs: The Postman speed of our anti-environment today,
[1:27:24] Bob Dobbs: it's,
[1:27:25] Bob Dobbs: remember,
[1:27:26] Bob Dobbs: it was really,
[1:27:26] Bob Dobbs: in comparison,
[1:27:27] Bob Dobbs: it was very slow back then,
[1:27:28] Bob Dobbs: even though for most people it was super fast,
[1:27:34] Bob Dobbs: intimidatingly fast.
[1:27:35] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:27:36] Bob Dobbs: so the satellite and laser beam,
[1:27:38] Bob Dobbs: you have not the automobile,
[1:27:40] Bob Dobbs: you have the airplane,
[1:27:42] Bob Dobbs: and that's Vietnam,
[1:27:44] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:27:44] Bob Dobbs: the airplane bombing with
[1:27:47] Bob Dobbs: NAPOM and all that stuff,
[1:27:49] Bob Dobbs: and it's up against...
[1:27:50] Bob Dobbs: television coverage.
[1:27:51] Bob Dobbs: So the airplane's out there aggressive,
[1:27:54] Bob Dobbs: and television is making the American or the
[1:27:57] Bob Dobbs: West go inner,
[1:27:59] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:28:00] Bob Dobbs: Retreating from the images in their living room.
[1:28:04] Bob Dobbs: The cliche that McLuhan was always talking about,
[1:28:06] Bob Dobbs: the television war in the living room.
[1:28:08] Bob Dobbs: And then Nixon is an effect of that.
[1:28:11] Bob Dobbs: Nixon's a paradoxical guy.
[1:28:14] Bob Dobbs: He's running a 68 on the part he had been reading McLuhan.
[1:28:18] Bob Dobbs: and he was advocating a new participation type of presidency.
[1:28:24] Bob Dobbs: Yet he was phatic and involved with the dope cartel starting to take over.
[1:28:31] Bob Dobbs: So he was,
[1:28:32] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:28:33] Bob Dobbs: I guess you could say for the physical body,
[1:28:39] Bob Dobbs: he was a concentration camp creator or fascist.
[1:28:44] Bob Dobbs: But on the image...
[1:28:46] Bob Dobbs: in the Anti-environment,
[1:28:48] Bob Dobbs: he's trying to advocate some myth about participation in politics.
[1:28:54] Bob Dobbs: So he's a conflicted character as you come into the global theater.
[1:28:59] Bob Dobbs: And remember that quote I begin with,
[1:29:02] Bob Dobbs: that no politician is without conflict of interest in the
[1:29:07] Bob Dobbs: 60s and 70s.
[1:29:08] Bob Dobbs: So the airplane's like an outer trip and television is an inner trip.
[1:29:13] Bob Dobbs: And it's inside.
[1:29:16] Bob Dobbs: anti-environment of satellites and the laser beam means a hologram is created.
[1:29:26] Bob Dobbs: So as the satellites go up,
[1:29:29] Bob Dobbs: what McLuhan called the percent of marriage,
[1:29:31] Bob Dobbs: it's starting to make an iconic image,
[1:29:34] Bob Dobbs: not in television news,
[1:29:36] Bob Dobbs: but in the collective effect of movies,
[1:29:40] Bob Dobbs: radio,
[1:29:41] Bob Dobbs: TV,
[1:29:42] Bob Dobbs: and all the other sports and all this stuff.
[1:29:45] Bob Dobbs: People begin to think they're living in a hologram or a room,
[1:29:49] Bob Dobbs: like in the movie The Truman Show,
[1:29:52] Bob Dobbs: that later movie.
[1:29:54] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean by that movie,
[1:29:55] Bob Dobbs: Truman Show?
[1:29:56] Cameron McEwen: Yes,
[1:29:57] Cameron McEwen: I do.
[1:29:57] Cameron McEwen: But I didn't understand the phrase that you used.
[1:30:00] Cameron McEwen: Did you say more room?
[1:30:02] Cameron McEwen: R-O-O-M?
[1:30:05] Bob Dobbs: I think so.
[1:30:06] Cameron McEwen: You said people are starting to believe they live in anti-environment of...
[1:30:12] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:30:12] Cameron McEwen: maybe of room.
[1:30:14] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan has that quote from
[1:30:16] Bob Dobbs: Phineas Wake,
[1:30:17] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:30:18] Bob Dobbs: whirling womb world,
[1:30:20] Bob Dobbs: world room,
[1:30:22] Bob Dobbs: something like that.
[1:30:25] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:30:25] Bob Dobbs: so I'm saying that the actual hologram,
[1:30:28] Bob Dobbs: the laser beam,
[1:30:30] Bob Dobbs: I don't think it became used in art by Salvador Dali until the early
[1:30:35] Bob Dobbs: 70s. And we're dealing with 45 to 60 here.
[1:30:39] Bob Dobbs: But the idea that a hologram could come up over the horizon in New York City and beam down on New York City,
[1:30:47] Bob Dobbs: it's an actual picture on the cover of the Church of the SubGenius book in 1983.
[1:30:54] Bob Dobbs: People used to think that those that didn't like religion,
[1:30:58] Bob Dobbs: that some,
[1:30:59] Bob Dobbs: the Pope would conspire and make a hologram of Jesus come up over the horizon and everything would be the second coming.
[1:31:05] Bob Dobbs: Or UFOs were holograms made by the Pentagon or something.
[1:31:09] Bob Dobbs: But the idea that you were inside a virtual anti-environment starting to be felt before the hologram goes into action.
[1:31:21] Bob Dobbs: That's what I was...
[1:31:22] Bob Dobbs: moving into,
[1:31:23] Bob Dobbs: and that's where the word holopathy comes from.
[1:31:26] Bob Dobbs: As you go from the late 60s into 70s and 80s,
[1:31:31] Bob Dobbs: this hologramic effect of the global theater and then the global membrane,
[1:31:36] Bob Dobbs: or maybe both at the same time,
[1:31:39] Bob Dobbs: I see McLuhan uses the phrase global membrane,
[1:31:41] Bob Dobbs: I think,
[1:31:42] Bob Dobbs: first in 1964.
[1:31:45] Bob Dobbs: The effect of that implosion means that the hologram gets smaller and tighter.
[1:31:53] Bob Dobbs: digital miniaturization starts to happen.
[1:31:56] Bob Dobbs: So,
[1:31:57] Bob Dobbs: holopathic is a combination of hologram and homeopathy.
[1:32:01] Bob Dobbs: Homeopathy deals with very tiny amounts that still retain the memory of the substance,
[1:32:07] Bob Dobbs: even though it's very invisible.
[1:32:13] Bob Dobbs: So,
[1:32:13] Bob Dobbs: the hologram that people are living in is getting smaller,
[1:32:18] Bob Dobbs: and it's also still a hologram effect.
[1:32:23] Bob Dobbs: So there's more Kuhn,
[1:32:25] Bob Dobbs: the miniaturization of people.
[1:32:28] Bob Dobbs: But at the same time,
[1:32:30] Bob Dobbs: they are being expanded by the digital technologies.
[1:32:35] Bob Dobbs: And so,
[1:32:38] Bob Dobbs: let's see,
[1:32:39] Bob Dobbs: Nixon in 68,
[1:32:41] Bob Dobbs: then Reagan in 1980.
[1:32:43] Bob Dobbs: Now you see all the way through,
[1:32:45] Bob Dobbs: newspaper,
[1:32:49] Bob Dobbs: let's see,
[1:32:50] Bob Dobbs: movies becomes Kuhn.
[1:32:53] Bob Dobbs: Television becomes television in the next level,
[1:32:56] Bob Dobbs: moves across to the other column,
[1:32:58] Bob Dobbs: goes from cultural enemy to weaponry.
[1:33:01] Bob Dobbs: The computer and atom bomb goes from cultural enemy to weaponry.
[1:33:07] Bob Dobbs: So you see that mechanical process there,
[1:33:10] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:33:12] Bob Dobbs: In each,
[1:33:14] Bob Dobbs: what would that be?
[1:33:15] Bob Dobbs: Shem and Sean,
[1:33:17] Bob Dobbs: they hop over each other.
[1:33:21] Bob Dobbs: Do you see that?
[1:33:22] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:33:23] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[1:33:24] Bob Dobbs: so that's part of the movement.
[1:33:25] Bob Dobbs: So then you have Reagan,
[1:33:27] Bob Dobbs: and he's locked down universal government.
[1:33:32] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:33:32] Bob Dobbs: in the late 70s,
[1:33:34] Bob Dobbs: early
[1:33:35] Bob Dobbs: 80s, the fad of looking for UFOs really takes off.
[1:33:41] Bob Dobbs: And a lot of people are involved with
[1:33:44] Bob Dobbs: UFO culture.
[1:33:46] Bob Dobbs: And so the solar government is the immediate solar system.
[1:33:53] Bob Dobbs: But universal government gets into light years and other dimensions.
[1:34:00] Bob Dobbs: So the holiopathic cliche probe,
[1:34:02] Bob Dobbs: the hologram is getting tinier and broader and more involving.
[1:34:12] Bob Dobbs: And it's swallowing the physical universe.
[1:34:15] Bob Dobbs: So that's the whole process that's going on there that I'm trying to show how huge it is.
[1:34:21] Bob Dobbs: by calling it universal government.
[1:34:24] Bob Dobbs: People's imagination is all over the universe in the 70s and 80s.
[1:34:31] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:34:31] Bob Dobbs: Philip K.
[1:34:32] Bob Dobbs: Dick's novels are about that kind of phenomenon.
[1:34:37] Bob Dobbs: It was common for people to think that they were touched by an ET or something,
[1:34:42] Bob Dobbs: an extraterrestrial.
[1:34:43] Bob Dobbs: Do you remember these popular phenomena,
[1:34:47] Bob Dobbs: popular fads?
[1:34:51] Cameron McEwen: I do.
[1:34:52] Cameron McEwen: I do.
[1:34:53] Cameron McEwen: I'm,
[1:34:54] Cameron McEwen: I guess because...
[1:34:57] Cameron McEwen: Time itself is getting faster for these periods.
[1:35:04] Cameron McEwen: I'm not seeing as readily as I did in the lines above how the technology is moving both vertically
[1:35:18] Cameron McEwen: and horizontally up until computer and atom bomb.
[1:35:26] Cameron McEwen: And satellite and laser beam,
[1:35:29] Cameron McEwen: I see how that works.
[1:35:31] Cameron McEwen: And then satellite and laser beam to poliopathic cliché probes,
[1:35:39] Cameron McEwen: you seem to move from a kind of technology to something that is more than technology.
[1:35:49] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:35:50] Bob Dobbs: this is the weird...
[1:35:55] Bob Dobbs: Virtual realities might be the term that's coming in.
[1:36:00] Bob Dobbs: Holyopathic was,
[1:36:01] Bob Dobbs: and I explain it in the book,
[1:36:03] Bob Dobbs: how holyopathic is a term for memes and virtual images that are taking over,
[1:36:12] Bob Dobbs: virtual iconography,
[1:36:14] Bob Dobbs: and people are more involved in it,
[1:36:15] Bob Dobbs: living in it.
[1:36:17] Bob Dobbs: So there's a major rupture.
[1:36:22] Bob Dobbs: From the end of the global theater,
[1:36:25] Bob Dobbs: which is satellite and laser beam,
[1:36:26] Bob Dobbs: we're now moving into beyond the global theater.
[1:36:31] Bob Dobbs: And that's when I call it the Android Meme.
[1:36:34] Bob Dobbs: So this is a very strange period from Reagan through Perot and then me,
[1:36:39] Bob Dobbs: 1960 up to 2020.
[1:36:45] Bob Dobbs: So
[1:36:45] Bob Dobbs: I show that process from the Holy Path Ecclesia Probes and the Anthem of the Physical in the tiny note chart.
[1:36:52] Bob Dobbs: So the tiny note chart develops what you're kind of complaining about.
[1:36:58] Bob Dobbs: I don't understand what this change is.
[1:37:02] Bob Dobbs: That's what I'm trying to show in the tiny note chart,
[1:37:05] Bob Dobbs: and I'm calling it the Android Meme.
[1:37:07] Cameron McEwen: Okay.
[1:37:08] Cameron McEwen: And so am I right to think then that between the satellite and laser beam line and the holiopathic cliché probe line,
[1:37:18] Cameron McEwen: what has happened is that...
[1:37:21] Cameron McEwen: Ground as technology has been swallowed by ground as image.
[1:37:34] Bob Dobbs: Exactly.
[1:37:34] Bob Dobbs: This is the quote in,
[1:37:36] Bob Dobbs: did I bring up Zingroni's book?
[1:37:39] Cameron McEwen: You did last time,
[1:37:41] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[1:37:41] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:37:41] Bob Dobbs: in that quote,
[1:37:42] Bob Dobbs: page 246,
[1:37:44] Bob Dobbs: where the user consumes form.
[1:37:49] Bob Dobbs: You remember that?
[1:37:50] Cameron McEwen: Yes,
[1:37:50] Cameron McEwen: sir.
[1:37:51] Cameron McEwen: I think you said that was the very end of the book.
[1:37:54] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[1:37:54] Bob Dobbs: near the end.
[1:37:55] Bob Dobbs: What he was trying to get at is what I'm talking about,
[1:37:57] Bob Dobbs: holy phatic cliche probe.
[1:38:01] Bob Dobbs: The fantasies of people,
[1:38:03] Bob Dobbs: what they were living.
[1:38:04] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:38:05] Bob Dobbs: cyberpunk science fiction takes off.
[1:38:08] Bob Dobbs: Crazy huge movies with huge effects takes off.
[1:38:14] Bob Dobbs: People have lost contact with even technological anti-environment.
[1:38:20] Bob Dobbs: as they're laid out earlier.
[1:38:23] Bob Dobbs: They're in a nervous,
[1:38:26] Bob Dobbs: synaptic ecstasy of what Baudrillard called the ecstasy of communication.
[1:38:31] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:38:32] Bob Dobbs: this real dramatic alteration.
[1:38:37] Bob Dobbs: And,
[1:38:37] Bob Dobbs: of course,
[1:38:38] Bob Dobbs: the irony is the president becomes a guy from a small town.
[1:38:43] Bob Dobbs: He's representing small-town chemical body values.
[1:38:46] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:38:47] Bob Dobbs: Reagan,
[1:38:48] Bob Dobbs: you need it.
[1:38:49] Bob Dobbs: You needed an extreme figure,
[1:38:52] Bob Dobbs: an actor,
[1:38:53] Bob Dobbs: not even a politician,
[1:38:54] Bob Dobbs: so to speak.
[1:38:56] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:38:56] Bob Dobbs: and Trump develops that even further.
[1:38:58] Bob Dobbs: Each president is after Reagan.
[1:39:00] Bob Dobbs: But Reagan is a shock to people.
[1:39:04] Bob Dobbs: But he's a figure for what's going on in the holyopathic process.
[1:39:08] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:39:08] Cameron McEwen: So you could say that one half of Reagan is from
[1:39:14] Cameron McEwen: Dixon, Illinois,
[1:39:15] Cameron McEwen: and the other half is GE.
[1:39:18] Bob Dobbs: Exactly.
[1:39:19] Bob Dobbs: Yep.
[1:39:19] Bob Dobbs: He's a cyborg.
[1:39:21] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:39:22] Cameron McEwen: So would I be right to say that what happens between satellite and laser beam and holiopathic cliche probes is that the two columns,
[1:39:33] Cameron McEwen: the ALP column and the
[1:39:36] Cameron McEwen: HCE columns,
[1:39:37] Cameron McEwen: have become flipped?
[1:39:39] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:39:40] Cameron McEwen: And now with holiopathic cliche probes,
[1:39:45] Cameron McEwen: we have
[1:39:46] Cameron McEwen: HCE as ground.
[1:39:50] Cameron McEwen: he's not a good ground,
[1:39:51] Cameron McEwen: but he is the ground.
[1:39:53] Cameron McEwen: And the
[1:39:55] Cameron McEwen: ALP...
[1:39:56] Cameron McEwen: It's gone over to the other half and is the reaction to this new ground.
[1:40:06] Bob Dobbs: That's feminism.
[1:40:07] Bob Dobbs: That's the second wave of feminism and women taking over a lot of prominent positions in the iconography of media,
[1:40:17] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:40:18] Bob Dobbs: They become the top-down managers.
[1:40:21] Bob Dobbs: They become the spy bureaucrats.
[1:40:24] Bob Dobbs: That leads to political correctness.
[1:40:28] Cameron McEwen: Sure.
[1:40:28] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:40:29] Cameron McEwen: just think of the woman that's head of the CIA right now.
[1:40:35] Cameron McEwen: And
[1:40:36] Cameron McEwen: Biden has named a woman to be head of the National Security.
[1:40:43] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:40:45] Bob Dobbs: that's the rigidification of what's been going on for 50 years.
[1:40:51] Cameron McEwen: Right,
[1:40:53] Cameron McEwen: right.
[1:40:54] Cameron McEwen: But I just want to get back to this idea that the.
[1:40:57] Cameron McEwen: ALP and HCE have flipped.
[1:41:00] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:41:03] Cameron McEwen: I understand how
[1:41:05] Cameron McEwen: HCE works with holiopathic cliche probes,
[1:41:10] Cameron McEwen: but on the universal government side,
[1:41:16] Cameron McEwen: is there an ALP dimension to that or not?
[1:41:19] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:41:20] Bob Dobbs: that's the spiritual feminism.
[1:41:22] Bob Dobbs: That's the ISIS cult.
[1:41:25] Bob Dobbs: Women.
[1:41:26] Bob Dobbs: Women get very involved with archetypalizing the woman as goddess.
[1:41:34] Cameron McEwen: Okay,
[1:41:34] Cameron McEwen: so it's the playboy fool,
[1:41:37] Cameron McEwen: then.
[1:41:38] Bob Dobbs: No,
[1:41:38] Bob Dobbs: no,
[1:41:39] Bob Dobbs: it's the,
[1:41:39] Bob Dobbs: well,
[1:41:40] Bob Dobbs: no,
[1:41:40] Bob Dobbs: feminism rejects that.
[1:41:42] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:41:42] Bob Dobbs: Gloria Steinem.
[1:41:43] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:41:44] Cameron McEwen: but the
[1:41:46] Cameron McEwen: ISIS is not only a controlling figure,
[1:41:52] Cameron McEwen: she's also a woman.
[1:41:54] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[1:41:55] Bob Dobbs: the old,
[1:41:56] Bob Dobbs: the patriarchal gaze,
[1:41:59] Bob Dobbs: the subject of the gaze,
[1:42:00] Bob Dobbs: that,
[1:42:01] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:42:01] Bob Dobbs: G-A-Z-E,
[1:42:02] Bob Dobbs: that a lot of,
[1:42:05] Bob Dobbs: well,
[1:42:07] Bob Dobbs: cultural studies gets into the gaze,
[1:42:09] Bob Dobbs: which is visual space,
[1:42:11] Bob Dobbs: patriarchal.
[1:42:12] Bob Dobbs: But women are fragmenting off,
[1:42:15] Bob Dobbs: they're creating their own world,
[1:42:16] Bob Dobbs: they're celebrating the history of women in many ways.
[1:42:19] Bob Dobbs: Did you ever see that art form,
[1:42:20] Bob Dobbs: The Dinner Party,
[1:42:22] Bob Dobbs: by Judy?
[1:42:23] Cameron McEwen: I think I did.
[1:42:24] Cameron McEwen: I think I did see that.
[1:42:27] Cameron McEwen: Years ago.
[1:42:28] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:42:28] Bob Dobbs: so the women are archetypalizing,
[1:42:32] Bob Dobbs: romanticizing,
[1:42:33] Bob Dobbs: or signifying the female figure in history.
[1:42:39] Bob Dobbs: So that becomes the cultural control point like men were before.
[1:42:47] Bob Dobbs: Women take over,
[1:42:48] Bob Dobbs: and McLuhan said that,
[1:42:50] Bob Dobbs: that women will take over.
[1:42:52] Bob Dobbs: all the older industrial anti-environment.
[1:42:55] Cameron McEwen: Sure,
[1:42:56] Cameron McEwen: because women know about roles.
[1:42:59] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:42:59] Bob Dobbs: they can be better role players.
[1:43:01] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:43:03] Cameron McEwen: But
[1:43:03] Cameron McEwen: I think what I'm beginning to understand here is that if holiopathic cliché probes as
[1:43:12] Cameron McEwen: HCE becomes ground,
[1:43:15] Cameron McEwen: then on the other side,
[1:43:18] Cameron McEwen: women,
[1:43:19] Cameron McEwen: let's say ALP,
[1:43:23] Cameron McEwen: gets involved as figures that are,
[1:43:29] Cameron McEwen: you could say that they are dancing holiopathic cliche probes as trying to understand what they are,
[1:43:41] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:43:41] Cameron McEwen: So they're going through this kaleidoscope of roles as figures based on this new ground.
[1:43:51] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[1:43:51] Bob Dobbs: and you said they're trying to understand what they are or become.
[1:43:55] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:43:56] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:43:57] Cameron McEwen: Because there's so many rules and so many possibilities for women that they weren't allowed to explore before,
[1:44:11] Cameron McEwen: or it didn't occur to them to explore before.
[1:44:16] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:44:16] Cameron McEwen: Now that holiopathic cliche probe is...
[1:44:20] Cameron McEwen: the ground,
[1:44:22] Cameron McEwen: then it becomes obvious that that's what they have to do.
[1:44:26] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:44:27] Bob Dobbs: And I actually show this Innis flip that you're talking about in the tiny note chart.
[1:44:32] Cameron McEwen: Okay,
[1:44:32] Cameron McEwen: good.
[1:44:32] Cameron McEwen: It'll be interesting to see that.
[1:44:35] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:44:35] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:44:36] Bob Dobbs: what do you got?
[1:44:36] Bob Dobbs: 15 minutes left?
[1:44:39] Cameron McEwen: Let's say.
[1:44:40] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[1:44:41] Cameron McEwen: all that can happen.
[1:44:43] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:44:43] Cameron McEwen: yeah,
[1:44:44] Cameron McEwen: maybe we should think about
[1:44:46] Cameron McEwen: 10 minutes because I'm a little worried that Bye.
[1:44:49] Cameron McEwen: nephew might phone and it might interrupt the recording.
[1:44:54] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:44:54] Bob Dobbs: that's okay.
[1:44:56] Bob Dobbs: But,
[1:44:56] Bob Dobbs: yes,
[1:44:56] Bob Dobbs: we,
[1:44:57] Bob Dobbs: 10 minutes,
[1:44:58] Bob Dobbs: okay.
[1:44:59] Bob Dobbs: So.
[1:45:02] Bob Dobbs: We've got here,
[1:45:04] Bob Dobbs: well,
[1:45:04] Bob Dobbs: we've done a lot.
[1:45:05] Bob Dobbs: The computer and atom bomb versus the television in the holy apathy cliche probe.
[1:45:12] Bob Dobbs: So we're moving into the digital.
[1:45:15] Bob Dobbs: And then the Anthropomorphic Physical is humans are not being extended anymore.
[1:45:24] Bob Dobbs: They're machinic as opposed to machines.
[1:45:27] Bob Dobbs: Or the holy apathy cliche probes of...
[1:45:29] Bob Dobbs: anti-environment are interacting and extending each other.
[1:45:34] Bob Dobbs: So the Kroker develops this a lot.
[1:45:40] Bob Dobbs: The surplus flesh,
[1:45:41] Bob Dobbs: the chemical body,
[1:45:43] Bob Dobbs: physical body being sidelined.
[1:45:47] Bob Dobbs: Then humans,
[1:45:50] Bob Dobbs: what are they going to see as their projections?
[1:45:54] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:45:55] Bob Dobbs: the Anthropomorphic Physical impulse.
[1:45:57] Bob Dobbs: They can see machines in themselves,
[1:46:00] Bob Dobbs: and we've come to the point today,
[1:46:02] Bob Dobbs: as Tom wrote this on my show,
[1:46:06] Bob Dobbs: you got Chinese,
[1:46:07] Bob Dobbs: Hong Kong people marrying their dolls.
[1:46:12] Bob Dobbs: Have you heard about that?
[1:46:14] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:46:14] Cameron McEwen: in Japan,
[1:46:15] Cameron McEwen: I think that's where that's,
[1:46:17] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[1:46:17] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:46:18] Bob Dobbs: so there's confusion of what the heck is Anthropomorphic Physical,
[1:46:22] Bob Dobbs: or it is Anthropomorphic Physical to project human qualities into the object.
[1:46:27] Bob Dobbs: So
[1:46:29] Bob Dobbs: I'm saying that there is a rawness to being Innis post-holopathic phase.
[1:46:40] Bob Dobbs: And I'll go into more of it when we do the tiny note chart next time.
[1:46:46] Bob Dobbs: So you have the satellite laser beam.
[1:46:49] Bob Dobbs: Now it's cultural enemy,
[1:46:51] Bob Dobbs: and that's Star Wars.
[1:46:55] Bob Dobbs: invasions,
[1:46:56] Bob Dobbs: UFO invasions.
[1:46:57] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:46:58] Bob Dobbs: technological cultural enemy is a satellite laser beam turning in on us.
[1:47:04] Bob Dobbs: And then the weaponry is computers and atom bombs.
[1:47:07] Bob Dobbs: That's when people are worrying about third world countries getting the bomb.
[1:47:13] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:47:14] Bob Dobbs: nuclear terrorism by small countries or not even,
[1:47:22] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:47:22] Bob Dobbs: industrialized countries.
[1:47:25] Bob Dobbs: Like Iran,
[1:47:25] Bob Dobbs: maybe.
[1:47:26] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:47:27] Cameron McEwen: North Korea.
[1:47:28] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:47:29] Bob Dobbs: North Korea.
[1:47:30] Bob Dobbs: So now why Perot?
[1:47:33] Bob Dobbs: So
[1:47:35] Bob Dobbs: Reagan, in a way,
[1:47:37] Bob Dobbs: is the last
[1:47:39] Bob Dobbs: American archetype of a centralizing
[1:47:42] Bob Dobbs: White House figure.
[1:47:43] Bob Dobbs: Perot is a rogue.
[1:47:45] Bob Dobbs: People are into decentralized people,
[1:47:51] Bob Dobbs: people,
[1:47:52] Bob Dobbs: marginal heroes.
[1:47:53] Bob Dobbs: heroes from the margins,
[1:47:55] Bob Dobbs: or what were considered the margins.
[1:47:57] Bob Dobbs: So Perot is a symptom of that.
[1:48:01] Bob Dobbs: Remember,
[1:48:02] Bob Dobbs: he'd get on TV and give lectures.
[1:48:05] Bob Dobbs: He'd instruct the people on the economy.
[1:48:09] Bob Dobbs: And McLuhan said Castro was like that.
[1:48:13] Bob Dobbs: He would have long-involved educational instruction talks with the population through radio.
[1:48:21] Bob Dobbs: And he had many roles.
[1:48:24] Bob Dobbs: Perot is people looking for a classroom in the media,
[1:48:33] Bob Dobbs: implosion,
[1:48:35] Bob Dobbs: excess,
[1:48:39] Bob Dobbs: alienation,
[1:48:40] Bob Dobbs: Postman,
[1:48:42] Bob Dobbs: all that stuff that the mosh pit of the Holy Path Ecclesiastes probes makes people want to...
[1:48:51] Bob Dobbs: get something serious going on in the media.
[1:48:54] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:48:54] Bob Dobbs: we really have that now with the Jordan Peterson phenomenon.
[1:48:58] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:48:58] Bob Dobbs: over the last five years,
[1:49:00] Bob Dobbs: people have surprisingly got into watching lectures and dialogues on the computer or on their smartphone.
[1:49:11] Bob Dobbs: Do you know what I'm referring to?
[1:49:12] Cameron McEwen: Sure.
[1:49:14] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:49:14] Bob Dobbs: so this instruction,
[1:49:16] Bob Dobbs: people getting back to classes as entertainment.
[1:49:21] Bob Dobbs: And so Perot was an interesting prefiguring of this.
[1:49:26] Bob Dobbs: And it's mythic,
[1:49:29] Bob Dobbs: meaning there's McLuhan definition of myth,
[1:49:32] Bob Dobbs: which is an encapsulation of a lot of processes that become a reduced formula,
[1:49:38] Bob Dobbs: but it's a multilevel formula or capsule.
[1:49:41] Bob Dobbs: Also,
[1:49:42] Bob Dobbs: it can refer to more and more virtualization of communication.
[1:49:47] Bob Dobbs: So we've moved out of the physical.
[1:49:50] Bob Dobbs: The solar,
[1:49:51] Bob Dobbs: the world government,
[1:49:52] Bob Dobbs: the solar government,
[1:49:53] Bob Dobbs: the universal government,
[1:49:54] Bob Dobbs: though there's a lot of weirdness in the interdimensional stuff in the universal government,
[1:49:59] Bob Dobbs: now we're...
[1:50:00] Bob Dobbs: Where are we when we've got mythic government?
[1:50:04] Bob Dobbs: We're not in any human coordinates,
[1:50:07] Bob Dobbs: actually.
[1:50:08] Bob Dobbs: But it's bounced off by a human giving a lecture as a campaign.
[1:50:13] Bob Dobbs: I mean,
[1:50:14] Bob Dobbs: giving instruction in his campaign,
[1:50:18] Bob Dobbs: which is what LaRouche used to do all the time in his campaign commercials in the
[1:50:23] Bob Dobbs: 80s. But Perrault,
[1:50:24] Bob Dobbs: do you remember these?
[1:50:25] Bob Dobbs: Perrault's half-hour seminars?
[1:50:29] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:50:30] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[1:50:31] Bob Dobbs: And so that's showing even wealthy,
[1:50:35] Bob Dobbs: supposedly successful,
[1:50:37] Bob Dobbs: creative,
[1:50:37] Bob Dobbs: innovative people,
[1:50:39] Bob Dobbs: business,
[1:50:41] Bob Dobbs: what did McLuhan call them,
[1:50:42] Bob Dobbs: emperors,
[1:50:44] Bob Dobbs: looking,
[1:50:44] Bob Dobbs: having an identity crisis,
[1:50:47] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:50:47] Bob Dobbs: There's something bigger.
[1:50:49] Bob Dobbs: To have wealth and all these different things that are associated with the upper 1%
[1:50:53] Bob Dobbs: is not enough in the process of absorbing the information society.
[1:50:59] Bob Dobbs: it's more important to figure out what's going on or to think you've figured out what's going on or you're motivated by the drive to figure out what's going on,
[1:51:06] Bob Dobbs: which McLuhan says back in the 60s in a Tony Schwartz recording,
[1:51:11] Bob Dobbs: in the future,
[1:51:12] Bob Dobbs: all we'll have to do is to keep up and know what's happening.
[1:51:16] Bob Dobbs: That'll be your main job,
[1:51:18] Bob Dobbs: he said.
[1:51:18] Cameron McEwen: And you'll be paid for that.
[1:51:22] Bob Dobbs: Take a part,
[1:51:23] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[1:51:23] Bob Dobbs: and be paid.
[1:51:24] Bob Dobbs: And so
[1:51:25] Bob Dobbs: Perot...
[1:51:28] Bob Dobbs: And I did this in 95.
[1:51:30] Bob Dobbs: That's a pretty good projection there by me about the significance of Perot as a pattern that's going to unfold in every election.
[1:51:39] Bob Dobbs: There's going to be a Perot kind of character.
[1:51:42] Bob Dobbs: You could say,
[1:51:45] Bob Dobbs: who's the guy who did the automobiles?
[1:51:49] Bob Dobbs: Ralph Nader,
[1:51:51] Bob Dobbs: a Ralph Nader character.
[1:51:52] Bob Dobbs: Remember,
[1:51:53] Bob Dobbs: he ran a couple of times as a sober teacher.
[1:51:58] Bob Dobbs: Let's sober up,
[1:51:59] Bob Dobbs: people,
[1:52:00] Bob Dobbs: and get serious,
[1:52:01] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:52:03] Bob Dobbs: And that's after the Kuhn Reagan.
[1:52:06] Bob Dobbs: So it's very different in the Perot phase.
[1:52:10] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:52:11] Cameron McEwen: So let me ask you about the vertical line going from holiopathic cliché probes to the Anthropomorphic Physical.
[1:52:22] Cameron McEwen: Is the issue there that with the holiopathic cliché probes,
[1:52:29] Cameron McEwen: There is a kind of dancing of figures,
[1:52:43] Cameron McEwen: whatever they are.
[1:52:48] Bob Dobbs: That's the question,
[1:52:48] Bob Dobbs: whatever they are.
[1:52:49] Bob Dobbs: You remember the Tounder has the dance of thought among words.
[1:52:54] Bob Dobbs: This is what we have the dance of.
[1:52:57] Bob Dobbs: anti-environment virtual weirdness interacting with flesh or what people think is human,
[1:53:04] Bob Dobbs: you know?
[1:53:04] Bob Dobbs: They're not sure.
[1:53:05] Cameron McEwen: Correct.
[1:53:06] Cameron McEwen: So the movement from holiopathic cliche probes to Anthropomorphic Physical seems to me to be the movement from dancing images that are,
[1:53:21] Cameron McEwen: that in the end are only confusing.
[1:53:25] Cameron McEwen: to the question of,
[1:53:29] Cameron McEwen: well,
[1:53:29] Cameron McEwen: Innis confusion,
[1:53:31] Cameron McEwen: what is it to be an anthropoid?
[1:53:36] Cameron McEwen: What is it to be a human being?
[1:53:41] Bob Dobbs: Which
[1:53:42] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan got to that kind of question.
[1:53:44] Bob Dobbs: Who are we?
[1:53:46] Cameron McEwen: Oh,
[1:53:46] Cameron McEwen: of course.
[1:53:49] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[1:53:49] Cameron McEwen: in the background,
[1:53:52] Cameron McEwen: you could say that that's the...
[1:53:55] Cameron McEwen: dynamism.
[1:53:57] Cameron McEwen: The dynamism of that question is at play in the whole chart.
[1:54:02] Bob Dobbs: Is what the whole chart?
[1:54:03] Bob Dobbs: What was the verb?
[1:54:04] Cameron McEwen: Is at play in the whole chart.
[1:54:07] Cameron McEwen: And it's also at play in the persons of Joyce's family.
[1:54:12] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:54:14] Bob Dobbs: Joyce's what?
[1:54:14] Bob Dobbs: Hamlin?
[1:54:16] Cameron McEwen: Family.
[1:54:17] Bob Dobbs: Family.
[1:54:18] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[1:54:19] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[1:54:19] Cameron McEwen: Are you talking so indistinctly or What's,
[1:54:23] Cameron McEwen: is it just the...
[1:54:25] Cameron McEwen: phone is not,
[1:54:26] Bob Dobbs: No,
[1:54:27] Bob Dobbs: no,
[1:54:27] Bob Dobbs: no,
[1:54:27] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[1:54:28] Bob Dobbs: no,
[1:54:28] Bob Dobbs: it's okay,
[1:54:29] Bob Dobbs: but sometimes it's a little blurry.
[1:54:31] Bob Dobbs: I miss a word.
[1:54:32] Cameron McEwen: Sorry.
[1:54:34] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[1:54:35] Bob Dobbs: it's the family.
[1:54:36] Bob Dobbs: Um,
[1:54:37] Bob Dobbs: the interactive,
[1:54:38] Bob Dobbs: who's the mother,
[1:54:38] Bob Dobbs: who's the father?
[1:54:39] Bob Dobbs: That became a problem in the nuclear family.
[1:54:42] Bob Dobbs: Who's in charge here?
[1:54:44] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.
[1:54:46] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:54:46] Bob Dobbs: so the,
[1:54:46] Bob Dobbs: um...
[1:54:48] Cameron McEwen: It turned out to be the teenager that was in charge.
[1:54:52] Bob Dobbs: The what?
[1:54:53] Cameron McEwen: teenager turned out to be on a chart.
[1:54:56] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[1:54:56] Bob Dobbs: so as we've gone through this,
[1:55:00] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if you could take any other thinker and make a chart like this,
[1:55:08] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:55:09] Bob Dobbs: built from McLuhan thinking.
[1:55:11] Bob Dobbs: This is where the chart comes from.
[1:55:15] Bob Dobbs: No.
[1:55:15] Cameron McEwen: But it's not just McLuhan,
[1:55:20] Cameron McEwen: though,
[1:55:20] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:55:21] Cameron McEwen: This is,
[1:55:21] Cameron McEwen: I think,
[1:55:22] Cameron McEwen: what's not understood by the
[1:55:25] Cameron McEwen: Bob is nuts people is that
[1:55:29] Cameron McEwen: to conceive of this kind of chart built on McLuhan is itself a contribution.
[1:55:41] Cameron McEwen: It's not just a replay of McLuhan.
[1:55:44] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[1:55:44] Cameron McEwen: It's a recreation.
[1:55:46] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:55:47] Bob Dobbs: Perfect.
[1:55:49] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:55:54] Bob Dobbs: It's didactic,
[1:55:56] Bob Dobbs: but it's more than didactic also.
[1:56:00] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:56:00] Cameron McEwen: well,
[1:56:00] Cameron McEwen: there's a play involved,
[1:56:02] Cameron McEwen: and you have to understand the humor in the play that's working.
[1:56:10] Bob Dobbs: So then it becomes Finnegans Wake,
[1:56:12] Bob Dobbs: you know?
[1:56:12] Bob Dobbs: I'm illustrating Finnegans Wake,
[1:56:13] Bob Dobbs: too,
[1:56:14] Bob Dobbs: or applying Finnegans Wake,
[1:56:16] Bob Dobbs: like McLuhan did,
[1:56:17] Bob Dobbs: updating it.
[1:56:19] Cameron McEwen: Sure.
[1:56:19] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:56:19] Cameron McEwen: explicitly at the top,
[1:56:22] Cameron McEwen: where the ground is Joyce's family.
[1:56:28] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:56:30] Bob Dobbs: So we come to the final level and...
[1:56:46] Bob Dobbs: This is talked about in my tiny note chart,
[1:56:51] Bob Dobbs: but it is amazing for me as I understand it.
[1:56:55] Bob Dobbs: I predicted ion here.
[1:56:58] Bob Dobbs: It's incredible.
[1:56:59] Bob Dobbs: Because there's a nothingness to the lines under ALP,
[1:57:03] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:57:04] Bob Dobbs: This is like static.
[1:57:07] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:57:07] Bob Dobbs: lifeline,
[1:57:09] Bob Dobbs: person died,
[1:57:10] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:57:13] Bob Dobbs: Sure.
[1:57:13] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:57:13] Bob Dobbs: when the,
[1:57:14] Bob Dobbs: what do you call those machines that people,
[1:57:17] Bob Dobbs: it's going up and down and it goes,
[1:57:19] Bob Dobbs: it just becomes a level tone and the person's died.
[1:57:23] Bob Dobbs: What are those things called?
[1:57:26] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:57:27] Cameron McEwen: I don't know.
[1:57:28] Cameron McEwen: It's a monitor or something.
[1:57:29] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:57:29] Bob Dobbs: a flat line.
[1:57:30] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:57:32] Bob Dobbs: So that's kind of a flat line there.
[1:57:36] Cameron McEwen: The Anthropomorphic Physical eats itself.
[1:57:39] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:57:40] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:57:41] Bob Dobbs: There's something going on there.
[1:57:42] Bob Dobbs: but
[1:57:43] Bob Dobbs: I'll lay it all out in the tiny note chart.
[1:57:46] Cameron McEwen: Okay,
[1:57:47] Cameron McEwen: good.
[1:57:47] Bob Dobbs: And how does it get to lockdown Bob Rule?
[1:57:50] Bob Dobbs: What the hell is that?
[1:57:53] Bob Dobbs: How did I become president in 2012?
[1:57:56] Bob Dobbs: We're a cultural figure,
[1:57:58] Bob Dobbs: so that needs to be explained.
[1:58:02] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:58:04] Cameron McEwen: I think that's a good place to end because it leaves us with great anticipation.
[1:58:11] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[1:58:11] Bob Dobbs: many mysteries will be solved next week.
[1:58:15] Cameron McEwen: Perfect.
[1:58:17] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:58:17] Bob Dobbs: very good.
[1:58:18] Bob Dobbs: So it's quite a chart,
[1:58:20] Bob Dobbs: eh?
[1:58:21] Cameron McEwen: It is.
[1:58:22] Cameron McEwen: It is.
[1:58:22] Cameron McEwen: And
[1:58:24] Cameron McEwen: I want to thank you for helping me understand it better than
[1:58:30] Cameron McEwen: I did or could when I was reading it.
[1:58:33] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:58:33] Cameron McEwen: It's very helpful to have your sort of contemporaneous commentary on it.
[1:58:40] Bob Dobbs: That's great because we recorded this and other people can learn from it too.
[1:58:47] Bob Dobbs: So that's good.
[1:58:48] Bob Dobbs: And I'm getting lots of great reviews of our dialogues.
[1:58:52] Cameron McEwen: Oh,
[1:58:53] Cameron McEwen: yes.
[1:58:54] Cameron McEwen: Good.
[1:58:54] Cameron McEwen: I'm glad to hear that.
[1:58:55] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:58:56] Cameron McEwen: On the website,
[1:58:57] Cameron McEwen: there's just one,
[1:58:58] Cameron McEwen: I think,
[1:58:59] Cameron McEwen: from somebody saying it's okay.
[1:59:02] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[1:59:03] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:59:03] Bob Dobbs: no,
[1:59:03] Bob Dobbs: there's in my Facebook page,
[1:59:07] Bob Dobbs: there's commentary.
[1:59:09] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[1:59:09] Cameron McEwen: I see.
[1:59:10] Bob Dobbs: But people,
[1:59:12] Bob Dobbs: like somebody the other day just said,
[1:59:15] Bob Dobbs: keep them coming.
[1:59:19] Bob Dobbs: They want more.
[1:59:20] Bob Dobbs: No,
[1:59:20] Bob Dobbs: it really works.
[1:59:22] Bob Dobbs: We're doing something about McLuhan,
[1:59:24] Bob Dobbs: with McLuhan that's never been heard before.
[1:59:28] Cameron McEwen: Excellent.
[1:59:29] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:59:30] Bob Dobbs: and people like it.
[1:59:32] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:59:32] Bob Dobbs: so thank you very much.
[1:59:34] Bob Dobbs: Let's hope it gets all recorded.
[1:59:37] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:59:37] Bob Dobbs: it seems to be in the background.
[1:59:39] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[1:59:40] Bob Dobbs: Talk to you soon.
[1:59:42] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:59:42] Cameron McEwen: talk to you next week,
[1:59:43] Cameron McEwen: and thanks.
[1:59:44] Cameron McEwen: It was enjoyable.
[1:59:46] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[1:59:46] Bob Dobbs: have a good week.
[1:59:47] Bob Dobbs: Bye.
[1:59:48] Cameron McEwen: You too.
[1:59:48] Cameron McEwen: Bye-bye.