Dialogue 12 — Transcript

[00:02] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[00:02] Bob Dobbs: this is the

[00:03] Bob Dobbs: 12th recording in our series,

[00:07] Bob Dobbs: me,

[00:07] Bob Dobbs: Bob Dobbs,

[00:08] Bob Dobbs: and Cameron McEwen,

[00:10] Bob Dobbs: and we're looking at my charts,

[00:15] Bob Dobbs: which are a background to my present book on what we didn't know about Donald Trump,

[00:24] Bob Dobbs: and

[00:25] Bob Dobbs: Cameron indicated he wanted to say something about what we're doing.

[00:32] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[00:32] Cameron McEwen: so

[00:33] Cameron McEwen: I just wanted to make a couple comments about the formula chart that we're leaving off in order to go over to the Tiny Note chart.

[00:47] Cameron McEwen: And the first thing is that in order to appreciate sort of what's going on here with this chart and with the next chart,

[00:57] Cameron McEwen: and in fact,

[00:58] Cameron McEwen: with all the charts above it.

[01:00] Cameron McEwen: is the tremendous energy,

[01:04] Cameron McEwen: psychological energy,

[01:05] Cameron McEwen: that you bring to this stuff.

[01:07] Cameron McEwen: I think it's very hard to understand and to appreciate just how much energy it takes to shuffle all these cards.

[01:21] Cameron McEwen: And you appear to have done it for a long time and are still doing it.

[01:30] Cameron McEwen: And at least to my mind,

[01:33] Cameron McEwen: it's a marvel.

[01:36] Cameron McEwen: You do it with a great deal of humor and a great deal of optimism,

[01:41] Cameron McEwen: but it wouldn't be worth anything if it weren't engaging with gaps and with the sort of discrepancies that most people don't like to think about.

[01:56] Cameron McEwen: So you're kind of dancing.

[01:59] Cameron McEwen: over the riddles of human nature and attempting to Richard Cavell them to some extent.

[02:09] Cameron McEwen: And

[02:10] Cameron McEwen: I just,

[02:11] Cameron McEwen: I find it difficult to really appreciate in terms of imagining doing it myself.

[02:27] Cameron McEwen: I think I bring...

[02:29] Cameron McEwen: a certain psychological energy to other questions and other respects of unribbling.

[02:39] Cameron McEwen: But my experience in that regard,

[02:46] Cameron McEwen: I don't think is a very good standard,

[02:49] Cameron McEwen: if you will,

[02:50] Cameron McEwen: to what you're doing in all of these charts,

[02:54] Cameron McEwen: which are only a tiny fraction of the

[02:59] Cameron McEwen: shuffling of the metal deck that you're doing in other respects as well.

[03:06] Cameron McEwen: So that said,

[03:07] Cameron McEwen: I come to the bottom of the formula chart and we have the flat line there on the extreme left column.

[03:20] Cameron McEwen: And then on the right,

[03:22] Cameron McEwen: we have the presidential U.

[03:27] Cameron McEwen: And we have Bob Rule.

[03:29] Bob Dobbs: Lockdown Bob Rule.

[03:34] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[03:34] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[03:35] Cameron McEwen: all of the extreme HCE column is lockdowns of various sorts,

[03:41] Cameron McEwen: right?

[03:41] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[03:43] Cameron McEwen: Every one of them.

[03:43] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[03:44] Cameron McEwen: So the way that

[03:48] Cameron McEwen: I understand this may or may not be the way that you intended.

[03:54] Cameron McEwen: And so what I'm going to describe.

[03:57] Cameron McEwen: can be taken as a question.

[03:59] Cameron McEwen: And that is that all of the presidents with their masks and with their chronological and psychological lags to what's going on are

[04:14] Cameron McEwen: human beings.

[04:17] Cameron McEwen: And as human beings,

[04:22] Cameron McEwen: they have something.

[04:25] Cameron McEwen: of a grasp of what's going on and can even be taken to symbolize it,

[04:32] Cameron McEwen: but there's a vast gulf between their human nature,

[04:39] Cameron McEwen: maybe that's the chemical body,

[04:42] Cameron McEwen: and the demands of the overall situation.

[04:51] Cameron McEwen: So when we have this

[04:54] Cameron McEwen: Lockdown

[04:55] Cameron McEwen: Bob Rule apparently extending to 2020.

[05:00] Cameron McEwen: My understanding would be that by continuing the

[05:07] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan interrogation,

[05:10] Cameron McEwen: you might say,

[05:12] Cameron McEwen: that you have the necessary tool combined with the energy that I was speaking about previously to deal with the

[05:27] Cameron McEwen: overall situation.

[05:29] Cameron McEwen: But at the same time,

[05:31] Cameron McEwen: you're a human individual with all of the inherent discrepancies between being a human individual and

[05:46] Cameron McEwen: this vast riddle that requires unriddling.

[05:52] Cameron McEwen: And so my understanding of where we're going from the formula chart.

[05:59] Cameron McEwen: to the Tiny Note chart is that the flat line,

[06:04] Cameron McEwen: which is what has happened to the ground column,

[06:09] Cameron McEwen: the flat line represents both a disintegration of previous answers and previous attempts at unriddling and

[06:26] Cameron McEwen: the clue.

[06:28] Cameron McEwen: that you are going to attempt to use in your further unriddling in the Tiny Note chart.

[06:41] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[06:42] Cameron McEwen: How does that fit with your own meanings?

[06:47] Bob Dobbs: That's very good.

[06:50] Bob Dobbs: I want to thank you for what you said,

[06:52] Bob Dobbs: but I consider your work requires...

[06:56] Bob Dobbs: A lot of energy which I'm not inclined to do.

[06:59] Bob Dobbs: You're kind of etymological,

[07:04] Bob Dobbs: going back and detailing all these things.

[07:08] Bob Dobbs: I think that stuff,

[07:10] Bob Dobbs: but I talk it rather than write it out.

[07:14] Bob Dobbs: But what I like is that you have found the gold all over the place that I found.

[07:22] Bob Dobbs: So it's a delight to read your...

[07:25] Bob Dobbs: your columns,

[07:27] Bob Dobbs: your topics,

[07:30] Bob Dobbs: because you're the only person who's ever pointed out these quotes that I know about and thought about that I can think about.

[07:38] Bob Dobbs: And so

[07:39] Bob Dobbs: I guess I'm more oral in taking this encyclopedic corpus by McLuhan,

[07:44] Bob Dobbs: and you're more literate or writing.

[07:47] Bob Dobbs: You write it out,

[07:49] Bob Dobbs: but we understand each other really well.

[07:54] Bob Dobbs: from our different biases.

[07:58] Bob Dobbs: So

[07:58] Bob Dobbs: I appreciate what you said,

[08:02] Bob Dobbs: but feelings mutual in a sense.

[08:04] Bob Dobbs: I admire what you have done in your inventory.

[08:09] Bob Dobbs: And probably at the beginning,

[08:12] Bob Dobbs: your inventory is more valuable than mine because people got to find out what McLuhan said,

[08:17] Bob Dobbs: which you present.

[08:19] Bob Dobbs: And then they can see they have a way to understand what I...

[08:24] Bob Dobbs: developed from,

[08:25] Bob Dobbs: which is from all the stuff you point out.

[08:31] Bob Dobbs: So about the flat line.

[08:33] Bob Dobbs: So you're asking about how the Tiny Note chart comes out of the formula chart?

[08:41] Cameron McEwen: No,

[08:41] Cameron McEwen: maybe less than that.

[08:43] Cameron McEwen: I'm just asking if my understanding,

[08:46] Cameron McEwen: especially of the last horizontal row of the chart.

[08:53] Cameron McEwen: My understanding of that is the proper introduction to where you're going to go with your comments on the Tiny Note chart.

[09:04] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[09:04] Bob Dobbs: but we may have in the previous recording,

[09:07] Bob Dobbs: which unfortunately got cut off,

[09:09] Bob Dobbs: we may have talked about holeopathic˜ cliche probes and satellite and laser beam a little bit,

[09:13] Bob Dobbs: right?

[09:14] Bob Dobbs: Did we do anything on that?

[09:18] Cameron McEwen: Perhaps not enough.

[09:19] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[09:20] Cameron McEwen: Trying to...

[09:23] Cameron McEwen: If I understand the last row,

[09:25] Cameron McEwen: I kind of skip over those two,

[09:28] Cameron McEwen: and maybe that's inappropriate.

[09:31] Bob Dobbs: No,

[09:32] Bob Dobbs: they have to be understood.

[09:35] Bob Dobbs: You heard about,

[09:38] Bob Dobbs: on the news today,

[09:40] Bob Dobbs: a video game shop called Game

[09:44] Bob Dobbs: Shop.

[09:45] Bob Dobbs: Yeah. And there was like an Occupy Wall Street phenomenon coming out of Reddit.

[09:52] Bob Dobbs: that raised the stock of GameShop as it was getting ready to implode and upset the...

[10:01] Bob Dobbs: the designs of billionaires,

[10:04] Bob Dobbs: big companies,

[10:05] Bob Dobbs: which the populist sentiment in people loves.

[10:09] Bob Dobbs: The big guys get beat up like that.

[10:12] Bob Dobbs: But in people talking about it,

[10:15] Bob Dobbs: they kept using the word meme.

[10:17] Bob Dobbs: And

[10:19] Bob Dobbs: Wall Street is memeing stocks and this and that,

[10:21] Bob Dobbs: memeing,

[10:22] Bob Dobbs: memeing.

[10:22] Bob Dobbs: It was a verb.

[10:23] Bob Dobbs: And

[10:24] Bob Dobbs: I think I spelled this out in the book,

[10:27] Bob Dobbs: that you had 30 years ago the words virtual reality.

[10:37] Bob Dobbs: There was a couple of words about the new internet culture,

[10:41] Bob Dobbs: the virtual situation.

[10:43] Bob Dobbs: But I called it Android Meme.

[10:46] Bob Dobbs: I made the boast in my book a few months ago that my word became what people chose to describe what was going on.

[10:57] Bob Dobbs: The word meme.

[10:59] Bob Dobbs: They don't say virtualizing stocks or that.

[11:01] Bob Dobbs: They go memeing this,

[11:02] Bob Dobbs: memeing that.

[11:04] Bob Dobbs: So the millennials and younger,

[11:06] Bob Dobbs: they use this word meme.

[11:08] Bob Dobbs: And that's what I meant by holeopathic˜ cliche probes.

[11:13] Bob Dobbs: I don't know how much I was thinking about meme when I made the chart,

[11:19] Bob Dobbs: but within a couple of years,

[11:20] Bob Dobbs: by 97,

[11:22] Bob Dobbs: I came up with Android Meme.

[11:24] Bob Dobbs: And that's a robotic automatic process.

[11:28] Bob Dobbs: where the machines take over the situation.

[11:32] Bob Dobbs: But it's this software memeing that's going on,

[11:34] Bob Dobbs: and people spend their lives keeping up with the memes or dropping off.

[11:41] Bob Dobbs: So

[11:41] Bob Dobbs: I realized my meaning for Holeopathic˜ cliche probes was a reductionist process of living in the global hologram or the global theater and people engaging news stories or idea trends or fads.

[11:57] Bob Dobbs: or stars or art forms that rapidly moved around or inside our circuitry and got smaller and smaller and more and more ransacking old culture,

[12:11] Bob Dobbs: like in the big effects movies,

[12:13] Bob Dobbs: the Superman movies and that,

[12:15] Bob Dobbs: taking cliches and probing them,

[12:18] Bob Dobbs: using them as probes,

[12:19] Bob Dobbs: which is exactly what McLuhan spelled out would happen from cliché to archetype.

[12:25] Bob Dobbs: Holy Path Ecclesiastes Probes is tinier and faster memes is what it's referring to.

[12:31] Bob Dobbs: And it's interacting with the hardware of the satellite laser beam and on the ground fiber optics.

[12:41] Bob Dobbs: So that's the hardware,

[12:42] Bob Dobbs: but the content is this turnover of memes.

[12:47] Bob Dobbs: And I don't know when kids started talking about memes,

[12:50] Bob Dobbs: maybe five years ago.

[12:51] Bob Dobbs: Do you have an idea about that?

[12:53] Cameron McEwen: No.

[12:54] Bob Dobbs: But you know it's recently,

[12:55] Bob Dobbs: right?

[12:56] Bob Dobbs: Within the last five years.

[12:58] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[12:59] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.

[12:59] Cameron McEwen: But the phrase itself came from the 70s,

[13:02] Cameron McEwen: right?

[13:02] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[13:02] Bob Dobbs: In 1976,

[13:04] Bob Dobbs: Richard Dawkins'

[13:05] Bob Dobbs: book,

[13:05] Bob Dobbs: The Selfish Gene,

[13:07] Bob Dobbs: he invented the term and the definition.

[13:10] Bob Dobbs: So why did these kids pick up on that?

[13:12] Bob Dobbs: But this is the process McLuhan talked about.

[13:16] Bob Dobbs: The collective consciousness of people engaging media seemed to agree on an effect.

[13:24] Bob Dobbs: that's happening.

[13:25] Bob Dobbs: And so a word that shows up has the perfect pitch and people use it.

[13:31] Bob Dobbs: So back in the Malinowski,

[13:34] Bob Dobbs: I remember oddballs would say,

[13:36] Bob Dobbs: well,

[13:36] Bob Dobbs: I'm going to find out where it's at,

[13:38] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[13:39] Bob Dobbs: that uses phrase where it's at.

[13:42] Bob Dobbs: But within five years,

[13:44] Bob Dobbs: respectable postal clerks or lawyers were talking about finding out where it's at,

[13:49] Bob Dobbs: right?

[13:49] Bob Dobbs: The phrase.

[13:52] Bob Dobbs: It resonated with what people were perceiving consciously or Hans Selye.

[13:57] Bob Dobbs: And McLuhan picked up on this and said our consciousness,

[14:00] Bob Dobbs: when more and more as we went through the 70s,

[14:02] Bob Dobbs: would be constantly probing and finding out where it's at.

[14:05] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan understood the archetypal process in that cliché phrase.

[14:09] Bob Dobbs: Do you agree with me?

[14:11] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[14:13] Cameron McEwen: yeah,

[14:13] Cameron McEwen: I understand what you're saying,

[14:14] Cameron McEwen: but I'm confused about the term cliché probe.

[14:19] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[14:19] Bob Dobbs: that's...

[14:20] Cameron McEwen: at least on one level,

[14:22] Cameron McEwen: when people are picking up on these cliches,

[14:27] Cameron McEwen: they're doing anything but probing.

[14:30] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[14:30] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[14:32] Cameron McEwen: So you could say that probing occurs on a whole series of levels,

[14:40] Cameron McEwen: right?

[14:42] Cameron McEwen: On one level,

[14:44] Cameron McEwen: people's minds are sort of...

[14:49] Cameron McEwen: automatically searching for the proper word.

[14:54] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[14:55] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[14:55] Cameron McEwen: But they're unconscious that they're probing in that sense.

[15:00] Cameron McEwen: It's just something that sort of happens in a background mode.

[15:03] Cameron McEwen: and all of a sudden they find themselves talking in a certain way.

[15:10] Bob Dobbs: I want to just interject there.

[15:12] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan uses the phrase cliché probe from Cliché to archetype,

[15:17] Bob Dobbs: 1970.

[15:19] Bob Dobbs: I see anti-environment ransacks all through the book from Cliché to archetype.

[15:24] Bob Dobbs: He refers to

[15:26] Bob Dobbs: Yeats' poem,

[15:27] Bob Dobbs: The Circus Animal's Desertion,

[15:30] Bob Dobbs: about how the poet lays down and...

[15:32] Bob Dobbs: Sort of among the garbage and refuse of the time.

[15:36] Bob Dobbs: Right,

[15:36] Cameron McEwen: and the rag and bone shop.

[15:39] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[15:39] Bob Dobbs: And then he finds from those cliches a new,

[15:43] Bob Dobbs: well,

[15:44] Bob Dobbs: archetype,

[15:44] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan says.

[15:45] Bob Dobbs: Or he makes an effect in a new work,

[15:48] Bob Dobbs: which is new and surprising,

[15:49] Bob Dobbs: which has or retrieves archetypal resonances.

[15:53] Bob Dobbs: So anti-environment,

[15:55] Bob Dobbs: the Android Meme,

[15:56] Bob Dobbs: took over the creative process,

[15:58] Bob Dobbs: and it was taking cliché probes or clichés.

[16:01] Bob Dobbs: ransacking,

[16:03] Bob Dobbs: and McLuhan says at the end of Take Today,

[16:05] Bob Dobbs: that the global theater uses everything for its repertoire,

[16:09] Bob Dobbs: right?

[16:09] Bob Dobbs: It's got the whole past.

[16:12] Bob Dobbs: And that becomes a mental tourism,

[16:14] Bob Dobbs: but also a global tourism.

[16:16] Bob Dobbs: That was one of the major businesses since the

[16:18] Bob Dobbs: 80s, people going around engaging archetypal anti-environment,

[16:23] Bob Dobbs: but they would be always mixed up by the next generation and altered and be used in a new way.

[16:30] Bob Dobbs: So.

[16:34] Bob Dobbs: The Android Meme and people participating in it,

[16:37] Bob Dobbs: they are probing with garbage,

[16:39] Bob Dobbs: with cliches.

[16:40] Bob Dobbs: And they don't recognize it as a probing process.

[16:43] Bob Dobbs: But that's what's happening.

[16:44] Bob Dobbs: At least the Android Meme does that back to us.

[16:47] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[16:48] Cameron McEwen: So let's just say that what

[16:56] Cameron McEwen: Yeats saw as the poetic function.

[17:02] Cameron McEwen: I think you are saying got taken over,

[17:06] Cameron McEwen: perhaps in an unconscious way,

[17:09] Cameron McEwen: by the human collective.

[17:12] Bob Dobbs: And their media.

[17:14] Cameron McEwen: And their media,

[17:15] Cameron McEwen: okay.

[17:16] Cameron McEwen: So let me just back up for a minute here.

[17:19] Cameron McEwen: Isn't this exactly how language functions?

[17:24] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[17:24] Cameron McEwen: And how McLuhan always talked about language?

[17:27] Cameron McEwen: Language itself is constantly changing.

[17:32] Cameron McEwen: People have to learn how to engage it in new ways,

[17:36] Cameron McEwen: and people can contribute themselves to how language changes.

[17:44] Cameron McEwen: So to me,

[17:46] Cameron McEwen: what we're talking about here is language prior to Yeats,

[17:51] Cameron McEwen: let's say,

[17:53] Cameron McEwen: always had a certain...

[18:01] Cameron McEwen: sense-making cybernetic reality that captured everything that could possibly be

[18:17] Cameron McEwen: said or experienced,

[18:20] Cameron McEwen: only some of which possibilities were actually realized in language.

[18:25] Cameron McEwen: So when you come up to people like Yates,

[18:29] Cameron McEwen: then...

[18:30] Cameron McEwen: you have the poetic assumption of this task,

[18:37] Cameron McEwen: right?

[18:39] Cameron McEwen: There's a realization of what language is and of the need for poets to engage themselves with that language process.

[18:53] Cameron McEwen: And maybe Finnegans Wake represents sort of the end station of that.

[19:00] Cameron McEwen: need or that demand.

[19:04] Cameron McEwen: And so then what I'm a little bit confused about is that what you call the

[19:13] Cameron McEwen: Android Meme sort of takeover of that process seems to me to either be a renaming of that process

[19:29] Cameron McEwen: but it's the same process,

[19:31] Cameron McEwen: or you're saying that the renaming actually points out something new that's happened to that process.

[19:42] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[19:43] Bob Dobbs: I would take the new angle.

[19:44] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[19:45] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan final insight,

[19:47] Bob Dobbs: he talked about in the late

[19:49] Bob Dobbs: 70s, he repeated it all over the place in his letters,

[19:52] Bob Dobbs: and I don't know if he might say it in City as Classroom.

[19:58] Bob Dobbs: He

[20:00] Bob Dobbs: He said he realized,

[20:02] Bob Dobbs: wow,

[20:02] Bob Dobbs: all technologies are words.

[20:05] Bob Dobbs: And he would italicize words.

[20:09] Bob Dobbs: And that's what

[20:10] Bob Dobbs: I'm getting at,

[20:11] Bob Dobbs: that the anti-environment are linguistic.

[20:13] Bob Dobbs: They're not words,

[20:15] Bob Dobbs: but they're doing that cliché to archetype word process you just outlined.

[20:20] Bob Dobbs: But it's being done by something that requires a perceptual updating,

[20:25] Bob Dobbs: or you're going to be alienated by it.

[20:27] Bob Dobbs: You're going to think it's something new or external.

[20:30] Bob Dobbs: Or strange,

[20:32] Bob Dobbs: or maybe even totalitarian.

[20:37] Bob Dobbs: You have to look at this new snow and see the 50 kinds in a new way.

[20:42] Bob Dobbs: So the new demand might be the newness,

[20:46] Bob Dobbs: or anti-environment new and requires your old habits to be refreshed because you're dealing with something new.

[20:53] Bob Dobbs: So maybe it's hard to tell,

[20:55] Bob Dobbs: it's ambivalent,

[20:56] Bob Dobbs: about what is new.

[20:58] Bob Dobbs: the new demands on the traditional tools,

[21:02] Bob Dobbs: or anti-environment is completely new.

[21:04] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[21:04] Bob Dobbs: to me,

[21:05] Bob Dobbs: it seems completely new.

[21:08] Bob Dobbs: What people live is ridiculous.

[21:13] Bob Dobbs: If you remember previous societies,

[21:16] Bob Dobbs: the fact that people walk along looking at their cell phone all day long,

[21:21] Bob Dobbs: this is ridiculous,

[21:23] Bob Dobbs: right?

[21:23] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[21:24] Bob Dobbs: I can understand that the cell phone is new nature.

[21:27] Bob Dobbs: and way more engrossing than our physical nature or what's around us.

[21:32] Bob Dobbs: You have endless synaptic imagery triggering delight or shock,

[21:38] Bob Dobbs: endlessly engaged,

[21:40] Bob Dobbs: but it seems to be very irresponsible to be carried away like that.

[21:47] Bob Dobbs: And so it looks like...

[21:49] Bob Dobbs: To me,

[21:50] Cameron McEwen: it seems like the new gum.

[21:52] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[21:53] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[21:53] Cameron McEwen: In the 1950s...

[21:56] Cameron McEwen: Everybody's chewing gum.

[21:58] Cameron McEwen: It's smoking.

[22:00] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[22:01] Cameron McEwen: so in both of those,

[22:02] Cameron McEwen: you're showing that the thing that's going on with you is more important than what's going on on the outside.

[22:15] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[22:16] Cameron McEwen: You're showing that you're self-involved.

[22:19] Cameron McEwen: You don't give a shit,

[22:21] Cameron McEwen: actually,

[22:21] Cameron McEwen: right?

[22:22] Cameron McEwen: You don't give a shit about your own teeth,

[22:24] Cameron McEwen: you don't give a shit about your own lungs,

[22:27] Cameron McEwen: and you especially don't give a shit about anybody that may be looking at you,

[22:31] Cameron McEwen: right?

[22:31] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[22:32] Cameron McEwen: And in order to express those things,

[22:36] Cameron McEwen: you have to express the opposite,

[22:38] Cameron McEwen: right?

[22:38] Cameron McEwen: You wouldn't be chewing gum the way you are,

[22:40] Cameron McEwen: you wouldn't be smoking the way you are,

[22:42] Cameron McEwen: unless you were ultra uptight about people looking at you,

[22:48] Cameron McEwen: right?

[22:49] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[22:50] Cameron McEwen: The same thing is going on with these goddamn phones.

[22:54] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[22:54] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[22:55] Cameron McEwen: It's my world is what people are saying.

[22:58] Cameron McEwen: But,

[22:58] Cameron McEwen: of course,

[22:58] Cameron McEwen: what's on the phone is not their world.

[23:01] Cameron McEwen: And what's going on around them that they're consciously ignoring is the world.

[23:08] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[23:08] Bob Dobbs: They are saying this mental...

[23:14] Bob Dobbs: Tactile sensory engagement with the phone and all its content is way more fun than anything you humans could come up with.

[23:22] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.

[23:23] Cameron McEwen: Or that they themselves as humans.

[23:26] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[23:26] Bob Dobbs: that they would come up with,

[23:28] Bob Dobbs: that's right.

[23:30] Bob Dobbs: And you know,

[23:30] Bob Dobbs: there were postmodern terms that talked about the commodification of reality and of art,

[23:36] Bob Dobbs: and some other cliches I can't remember right now,

[23:38] Bob Dobbs: but you'd see it riddled in the books.

[23:41] Bob Dobbs: Kroker was a...

[23:42] Bob Dobbs: Good replay of a lot of these terms.

[23:44] Bob Dobbs: But he had a nice spin on it.

[23:46] Bob Dobbs: He'd add something to it.

[23:48] Bob Dobbs: But you'd find out what the jargon was in the postmodern authors that were prominent in the 80s and 90s from reading him.

[23:56] Bob Dobbs: Recombinant commodity was another one.

[23:59] Bob Dobbs: Android Meme processor.

[24:00] Bob Dobbs: But go ahead.

[24:06] Bob Dobbs: I was going to,

[24:06] Bob Dobbs: I'm not sure.

[24:07] Cameron McEwen: What he would point out,

[24:10] Cameron McEwen: not in these words.

[24:11] Cameron McEwen: But what he would point out and what McLuhan had already pointed out is that when people make this implied statement that what is going on here is much more important than what's going on in

[24:29] Cameron McEwen: the world or in my own mind or whatever,

[24:32] Cameron McEwen: what they're doing is they're repeating something that's been advertised or propagandized to them.

[24:40] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[24:40] Cameron McEwen: So they...

[24:41] Cameron McEwen: The trick is,

[24:43] Cameron McEwen: as the folks around 1950 in the Frankfurt School were already pointing out,

[24:51] Cameron McEwen: the trick is to get people to internalize.

[24:57] Cameron McEwen: what is an objective commercial message.

[25:03] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[25:04] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[25:04] Cameron McEwen: So they believe they're doing something that's personal and important to them,

[25:10] Cameron McEwen: but it's nothing other than them contributing their energy and money to

[25:17] Cameron McEwen: Apple or Facebook or whatever.

[25:21] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[25:21] Bob Dobbs: But the fact the user is the content,

[25:25] Bob Dobbs: there is a liberation.

[25:27] Bob Dobbs: Orwell and

[25:29] Bob Dobbs: Huxley got it wrong.

[25:30] Bob Dobbs: They didn't get it.

[25:31] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan got it.

[25:32] Bob Dobbs: He said,

[25:32] Bob Dobbs: this is amazing participation mystique.

[25:37] Bob Dobbs: People are not being brainwashed.

[25:40] Bob Dobbs: They're not being that.

[25:41] Bob Dobbs: It doesn't matter what the content was,

[25:43] Bob Dobbs: he used to say on the radio.

[25:44] Bob Dobbs: It's sharing the space.

[25:47] Bob Dobbs: And Canadians do it all the time,

[25:48] Bob Dobbs: right?

[25:49] Bob Dobbs: They get up and they listen to CBC Morning,

[25:52] Bob Dobbs: whoever that person was,

[25:53] Bob Dobbs: Noam Chomsky or somebody.

[25:55] Bob Dobbs: And...

[25:56] Bob Dobbs: It didn't matter who Noam Chomsky had on,

[25:59] Bob Dobbs: it was the fact they're all sharing this electric discarnate space,

[26:02] Bob Dobbs: just like in America would be Good Morning America,

[26:04] Bob Dobbs: one of those shows.

[26:06] Bob Dobbs: And so the messages of the culture,

[26:11] Bob Dobbs: if there was propagandistic purposes like ads on Good Morning America,

[26:16] Bob Dobbs: they don't work.

[26:18] Bob Dobbs: They're irrelevant to the large part of people's experience.

[26:22] Bob Dobbs: But then when they fall back and get lazy,

[26:24] Bob Dobbs: you could say into the chemical body,

[26:25] Bob Dobbs: then that might be subject to what they saw and they want to go get that car or something.

[26:30] Bob Dobbs: But most of their experience,

[26:32] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[26:32] Bob Dobbs: by the 60s is sharing electric space.

[26:36] Bob Dobbs: And this shocked the

[26:39] Bob Dobbs: Gutenberg culture controllers,

[26:43] Bob Dobbs: the conductors,

[26:43] Bob Dobbs: the symphony players,

[26:46] Bob Dobbs: all the old opera.

[26:48] Bob Dobbs: They didn't understand that people couldn't get involved in that stuff anymore.

[26:52] Bob Dobbs: They were involved in the new electric space,

[26:55] Bob Dobbs: which had a lot of teenage content.

[26:59] Cameron McEwen: Right,

[26:59] Cameron McEwen: right.

[27:00] Cameron McEwen: But the thing that needs to be remembered,

[27:06] Cameron McEwen: even for the Frankfurt School,

[27:08] Cameron McEwen: is that pointing out the commercialization of things is not the end point.

[27:15] Cameron McEwen: The end point,

[27:16] Cameron McEwen: also in McLuhan,

[27:18] Cameron McEwen: is to show that the commercialization is itself not important.

[27:24] Cameron McEwen: What is important is that the world is going down a shithole,

[27:29] Cameron McEwen: and there is an inability to deal with that,

[27:35] Cameron McEwen: where the commercialization is one aspect of that inability.

[27:40] Bob Dobbs: And two things.

[27:41] Bob Dobbs: You can see in the incredible corrupt world we're in,

[27:44] Bob Dobbs: in old moral ethical terms,

[27:47] Bob Dobbs: that

[27:48] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan concerned and said,

[27:50] Bob Dobbs: we better turn this off for a minute to get our bearings.

[27:54] Bob Dobbs: And we're doomed.

[27:56] Bob Dobbs: And so we have doomed ourselves.

[27:58] Bob Dobbs: So he was right in that point.

[27:59] Bob Dobbs: The other thing is the way they describe millennials and youngers,

[28:03] Bob Dobbs: younger people like Zoomers,

[28:04] Bob Dobbs: the way they are,

[28:06] Bob Dobbs: how they're very uninvolved in social realities.

[28:12] Bob Dobbs: They aren't even concerned about sex,

[28:14] Bob Dobbs: apparently.

[28:16] Bob Dobbs: And many of the Zoomers want to remain virgins and be devoted to,

[28:22] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[28:23] Bob Dobbs: pure marriage.

[28:25] Bob Dobbs: And that's just one part of it.

[28:26] Bob Dobbs: I understand they're not interested in football,

[28:28] Bob Dobbs: all kinds of things.

[28:30] Bob Dobbs: They just want to be stimulated.

[28:33] Bob Dobbs: And this is where my Tiny Note Chardin the Dobbs quadrant,

[28:37] Bob Dobbs: the main characteristic is ecstasy.

[28:40] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[28:40] Bob Dobbs: I was aware of Baudrillard important book in 87,

[28:43] Bob Dobbs: The Ecstasy of Communication.

[28:45] Bob Dobbs: So I was probably thinking of that,

[28:47] Bob Dobbs: plus the drug effect,

[28:50] Bob Dobbs: the ecstatic effect of television,

[28:53] Bob Dobbs: cable TV,

[28:54] Bob Dobbs: then the

[28:55] Bob Dobbs: Internet

[28:57] Bob Dobbs: 1.0, then 2.0,

[28:58] Bob Dobbs: then social media.

[29:00] Bob Dobbs: People are in a throes of eating lotus or something,

[29:04] Bob Dobbs: lotus eaters kind of thing,

[29:07] Bob Dobbs: in the engagement with the Android Meme and its contents.

[29:11] Bob Dobbs: That's the amazing situation.

[29:14] Bob Dobbs: And the ecstatic situation people are in.

[29:16] Bob Dobbs: So all the older ecstasies don't matter as much.

[29:21] Cameron McEwen: Right,

[29:22] Cameron McEwen: right.

[29:23] Cameron McEwen: When you use ecstasy there,

[29:27] Cameron McEwen: isn't that a variant or a synonym for lockdown?

[29:34] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[29:34] Cameron McEwen: In the formula chart?

[29:36] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[29:37] Bob Dobbs: yep.

[29:37] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[29:38] Cameron McEwen: okay.

[29:38] Bob Dobbs: Ecstatic paralysis.

[29:40] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[29:41] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[29:42] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[29:43] Cameron McEwen: the lockdown of everything.

[29:44] Cameron McEwen: The spider's net.

[29:46] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[29:47] Bob Dobbs: And,

[29:47] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[29:47] Bob Dobbs: people like to say Postman amusing themselves to death.

[29:51] Bob Dobbs: That's not violent enough,

[29:52] Bob Dobbs: that phrase.

[29:54] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[29:54] Bob Dobbs: amusing ourselves as if,

[29:56] Bob Dobbs: no,

[29:57] Bob Dobbs: we have been abducted ourselves to death,

[30:01] Bob Dobbs: possessed,

[30:03] Bob Dobbs: way beyond being amused.

[30:05] Bob Dobbs: People aren't amused.

[30:06] Bob Dobbs: They have to be in the space,

[30:09] Bob Dobbs: which they think is a shared space.

[30:12] Bob Dobbs: It is not perceptually.

[30:14] Cameron McEwen: Just back up there.

[30:15] Cameron McEwen: That seems to me to be an interesting thing you just said.

[30:20] Cameron McEwen: I think you said people aren't amused.

[30:23] Cameron McEwen: but they need to be in the space.

[30:25] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[30:26] Bob Dobbs: and they think it's shared,

[30:28] Bob Dobbs: but everybody's hallucinating.

[30:29] Bob Dobbs: Their user's content is dominating.

[30:31] Bob Dobbs: They're hyper-subjective.

[30:32] Bob Dobbs: That's another postmodern word.

[30:33] Bob Dobbs: Hyper-subjectivity is going on.

[30:36] Bob Dobbs: So large in terms of community matching,

[30:40] Bob Dobbs: no sharing.

[30:41] Bob Dobbs: But they are engaging in a space,

[30:43] Bob Dobbs: and everybody's in that digital node.

[30:45] Bob Dobbs: So that's being shared,

[30:47] Bob Dobbs: the raw ecstasy of it.

[30:49] Bob Dobbs: But the content can be expendable.

[30:52] Bob Dobbs: It's not important,

[30:53] Bob Dobbs: the content.

[30:54] Cameron McEwen: Right,

[30:55] Cameron McEwen: And so the billiard balls that are bouncing off each other Innis description you just made,

[31:05] Cameron McEwen: those billiard balls are the memes?

[31:09] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[31:10] Bob Dobbs: And the people are Königsbergian.

[31:12] Bob Dobbs: They're attached to the memes.

[31:13] Bob Dobbs: They're involved in it.

[31:14] Bob Dobbs: They're putting meaning in the meme.

[31:16] Bob Dobbs: They're preferring it.

[31:17] Bob Dobbs: Of course,

[31:18] Bob Dobbs: that's only a short time,

[31:19] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[31:20] Bob Dobbs: six weeks or something.

[31:21] Bob Dobbs: There's another meme.

[31:23] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[31:23] Bob Dobbs: we are.

[31:25] Bob Dobbs: So take the billiard ball of literate consciousness and it's still there.

[31:32] Bob Dobbs: It might even be even more reinforced by the autonomous floating over the planet,

[31:38] Bob Dobbs: discarnate satellite experience that people are doing,

[31:41] Bob Dobbs: the cybernauts.

[31:43] Bob Dobbs: But there's also an implosion and melting of things.

[31:47] Bob Dobbs: So it's,

[31:48] Bob Dobbs: you can see in Finnegans Wake,

[31:49] Bob Dobbs: Joyce describing the disappearance of community and individual and all kinds of disappearances while it's one person dreaming or looking at,

[31:59] Bob Dobbs: listening at media in a tavern.

[32:01] Bob Dobbs: You can see the mixture.

[32:03] Bob Dobbs: You can't use words to say it to cover the whole thing,

[32:10] Bob Dobbs: to the whole experience.

[32:13] Bob Dobbs: That's the new part is that people are

[32:16] Cameron McEwen: experiencing a non-community of traditional chemical body community of space but isn't it's not as if human beings ever lacked

[32:31] Cameron McEwen: gaps right the very first word that was ever spoken by humans I had to cross a gap between the two of them a gap of space yeah not only a gap of space a gap

[32:45] Cameron McEwen: between what was a grunt and now was a word.

[32:51] Bob Dobbs: A verbum.

[32:52] Cameron McEwen: The two individuals,

[32:53] Cameron McEwen: sorry.

[32:54] Bob Dobbs: Verbum.

[32:55] Bob Dobbs: Have you ever seen McLuhan tetrad on verbum?

[32:58] Cameron McEwen: Sure.

[32:59] Bob Dobbs: Right,

[32:59] Bob Dobbs: it's a grunt.

[33:01] Bob Dobbs: It's the stage before you get to word or something.

[33:05] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[33:08] Cameron McEwen: But the point is that from the very beginning,

[33:13] Cameron McEwen: human beings are characterized.

[33:15] Cameron McEwen: by gaps,

[33:16] Cameron McEwen: right?

[33:17] Cameron McEwen: And these gaps we've talked about in the past,

[33:21] Cameron McEwen: there's a gap between the particular possibility of human being that you're living and all of the possibilities of human being that you could be living,

[33:38] Cameron McEwen: which is like a language uses certain sounds in certain ways.

[33:45] Cameron McEwen: And each one of those sounds and each one of those ways has a vertical drop,

[33:56] Cameron McEwen: you could say,

[33:57] Cameron McEwen: underneath it that represents particular decisions,

[34:03] Cameron McEwen: but not decisions that were made by any individual person.

[34:07] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[34:07] Cameron McEwen: So the word,

[34:11] Cameron McEwen: the sound for cue,

[34:12] Cameron McEwen: let's say,

[34:14] Cameron McEwen: is.

[34:14] Cameron McEwen: probably not present in the Hawaiian language,

[34:18] Cameron McEwen: right?

[34:18] Cameron McEwen: Now,

[34:19] Cameron McEwen: they could have had the sound cue,

[34:21] Cameron McEwen: but somebody made the decision not to have,

[34:24] Cameron McEwen: or not,

[34:25] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[34:25] Cameron McEwen: the decision was made in the language process not to have that sound,

[34:31] Cameron McEwen: right?

[34:31] Cameron McEwen: So the Hawaiian language,

[34:33] Cameron McEwen: I believe,

[34:33] Cameron McEwen: only has something like,

[34:36] Cameron McEwen: I don't know,

[34:36] Cameron McEwen: 10 or 12 sounds,

[34:39] Cameron McEwen: right?

[34:39] Cameron McEwen: It's the

[34:41] Cameron McEwen: Polynesian languages are distinguished.

[34:44] Cameron McEwen: by their very restricted sound range,

[34:48] Cameron McEwen: which means that the languages have developed.

[34:53] Cameron McEwen: in distinctive ways that they can express everything they need to express,

[35:01] Cameron McEwen: but they do so with a very limited sound vocabulary,

[35:04] Cameron McEwen: you could say,

[35:05] Cameron McEwen: right?

[35:06] Bob Dobbs: Yep.

[35:06] Cameron McEwen: So all I'm trying to say here is that when languages develop or when human possibilities are developed into an individual,

[35:20] Cameron McEwen: there's a whole series of gaps.

[35:22] Cameron McEwen: that are implied below those things,

[35:25] Cameron McEwen: right?

[35:25] Cameron McEwen: And one of the purposes,

[35:29] Cameron McEwen: I would say,

[35:29] Cameron McEwen: of Finnegans Wake is to exploit the omnipresence of these gaps,

[35:39] Cameron McEwen: these horizontal and vertical gaps that are kind of the semantic and anti-environment.

[35:51] Cameron McEwen: of every human at every moment.

[35:56] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[35:56] Bob Dobbs: now the description of the takeover by the smartphone,

[36:00] Bob Dobbs: a wise person could see that speech did that to early humans.

[36:08] Bob Dobbs: Speech was this overpowering environment.

[36:11] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely,

[36:12] Cameron McEwen: that's where I was going.

[36:13] Cameron McEwen: I was going to ask you if the gaps that are inherent in human nature

[36:19] Cameron McEwen: are in some way engaged in a new way in your sort of vision of what's going on.

[36:31] Bob Dobbs: I would say in the gaps are the later technologies.

[36:36] Cameron McEwen: Sure.

[36:37] Cameron McEwen: Okay,

[36:37] Cameron McEwen: good.

[36:38] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[36:39] Cameron McEwen: the electric technology for McLuhan makes possible an understanding of media for the first time.

[36:48] Cameron McEwen: Because all media was based on gaps,

[36:51] Cameron McEwen: but electricity is a conscious foundation in a gap.

[36:58] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[36:59] Bob Dobbs: So he said the shaman,

[37:02] Bob Dobbs: the perceptive person or human,

[37:06] Bob Dobbs: always saw the ground rules of the culture.

[37:09] Bob Dobbs: They saw the Hillman in whatever media they were developed at.

[37:14] Bob Dobbs: So the shaman could see through...

[37:17] Bob Dobbs: The tricks of language or the enveloping of language and then early writing,

[37:23] Bob Dobbs: who was good at that could see through it because imagination was,

[37:27] Bob Dobbs: as McLuhan defined it,

[37:28] Bob Dobbs: was that faculty not embedded in the sensory environment,

[37:32] Bob Dobbs: not embedded Innis extensions.

[37:35] Bob Dobbs: You see,

[37:35] Bob Dobbs: he's not in it.

[37:36] Bob Dobbs: He or she is not in somehow they can see through the effects and it's very hard for them to communicate that to people who don't see it.

[37:47] Bob Dobbs: But then they get aberrated psychic effects from that,

[37:50] Bob Dobbs: so they appear to have second sight or something.

[37:52] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[37:53] Bob Dobbs: other odd anomalies comes out of the shaman.

[37:56] Bob Dobbs: Even their creative works,

[37:57] Bob Dobbs: painting and poetry,

[37:59] Bob Dobbs: is an odd production that comes out of their inability to get people to see what they see.

[38:07] Bob Dobbs: And so in the gaps is all other possibilities of human experience.

[38:13] Bob Dobbs: That's what I mean.

[38:14] Bob Dobbs: It contains,

[38:14] Bob Dobbs: the gaps contain all media.

[38:16] Bob Dobbs: And that's what you see in Finnegans Wake.

[38:18] Bob Dobbs: He presents all kinds of media from all through history on each page,

[38:23] Bob Dobbs: often symbolized by languages.

[38:25] Bob Dobbs: So he's showing the whole constantly,

[38:27] Bob Dobbs: but making a little particular angle on it about that particular pitch.

[38:36] Bob Dobbs: And that's represented by the 10 thunders and the changes they represent or the context.

[38:43] Bob Dobbs: So...

[38:47] Bob Dobbs: Once we have all these gaps expressed,

[38:51] Bob Dobbs: we're still subject to the laws of media,

[38:53] Bob Dobbs: but it can lead to our extinction.

[38:57] Bob Dobbs: I don't think speech could lead to our extinction.

[39:02] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[39:02] Bob Dobbs: speech as anti-environment,

[39:03] Bob Dobbs: a anti-environment,

[39:04] Bob Dobbs: taking over people.

[39:07] Bob Dobbs: It led to a lot of violence.

[39:09] Bob Dobbs: And maybe,

[39:09] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[39:10] Bob Dobbs: a couple of tribes were wiped out.

[39:12] Bob Dobbs: But to have the whole...

[39:15] Bob Dobbs: chemical body reality that people think is reality,

[39:20] Bob Dobbs: tossed off as not relevant,

[39:23] Bob Dobbs: which is where we're at now,

[39:25] Bob Dobbs: is a whole new thing.

[39:27] Bob Dobbs: A new,

[39:28] Bob Dobbs: well,

[39:28] Bob Dobbs: then again,

[39:29] Bob Dobbs: I would say,

[39:29] Bob Dobbs: well,

[39:30] Bob Dobbs: it was replay of all former Armageddons or apocalypses.

[39:36] Bob Dobbs: So this is the curious,

[39:38] Bob Dobbs: ambivalent situation,

[39:39] Bob Dobbs: the same anew.

[39:40] Bob Dobbs: That's a phrase in Finnegans Wake.

[39:42] Bob Dobbs: I think it's spelled S-E-I-M.

[39:44] Bob Dobbs: Anu,

[39:45] Bob Dobbs: the same Anu,

[39:46] Bob Dobbs: A-N-E-W.

[39:50] Bob Dobbs: And that's what I'm getting at.

[39:53] Bob Dobbs: And everybody else got to that.

[39:55] Bob Dobbs: If they got a pretty comprehensive art form going,

[39:59] Bob Dobbs: they could see.

[40:00] Bob Dobbs: And McLuhan has it on page 11 of Take Today.

[40:02] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[40:03] Bob Dobbs: the accidents of new media anti-environment happen,

[40:06] Bob Dobbs: but man is still the content.

[40:10] Bob Dobbs: So there's something that stays while the clothes change.

[40:18] Bob Dobbs: And that's...

[40:19] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[40:19] Bob Dobbs: I say that.

[40:21] Bob Dobbs: That's a simple,

[40:22] Bob Dobbs: it sort of sounds like a pretty good statement,

[40:24] Bob Dobbs: but it's nothing compared to what's going anti-environment today.

[40:30] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[40:31] Cameron McEwen: but am I right anti-environment has a kind of ambivalence to it?

[40:39] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[40:39] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[40:40] Cameron McEwen: So if

[40:41] Cameron McEwen: Nietzsche in

[40:46] Cameron McEwen: 1888, if that's the right year,

[40:48] Cameron McEwen: says that

[40:49] Cameron McEwen: with the true world we have also abolished the apparent one.

[40:55] Cameron McEwen: Now here we are 150 years later,

[40:59] Cameron McEwen: more or less,

[41:01] Cameron McEwen: and what Nietzsche was talking about is now the lived reality,

[41:08] Cameron McEwen: right?

[41:08] Cameron McEwen: And so you could say that it's the fate of the collective to live the

[41:18] Cameron McEwen: X

[41:19] Cameron McEwen: and the depression of what has been foreseen by somebody like Nietzsche,

[41:26] Cameron McEwen: but it requires that collective agony,

[41:32] Cameron McEwen: that collective drama,

[41:36] Cameron McEwen: for the problem posed by Nietzsche to be solved.

[41:44] Bob Dobbs: It needs a collectivity?

[41:46] Bob Dobbs: You're saying the drama?

[41:47] Bob Dobbs: needs to be collectivized yes and that's our global esperanto we were saying last week that's communicated yes the collective consciousness um well i wonder if i

[42:03] Cameron McEwen: don't know if that we may be talking about uh two slightly different things there well i would include both you emphasize one and then i might emphasize the other but i'm including yours

[42:16] Bob Dobbs: when I add mine.

[42:18] Cameron McEwen: Okay,

[42:18] Cameron McEwen: but what are the two that you're talking about besides you and me?

[42:22] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[42:23] Bob Dobbs: when I see a problem that somebody's going through,

[42:30] Bob Dobbs: I have to decide whether to get involved and assist.

[42:34] Bob Dobbs: And both responses,

[42:36] Bob Dobbs: getting involved or not,

[42:38] Bob Dobbs: are adequate.

[42:40] Bob Dobbs: That's the paradox.

[42:42] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[42:42] Bob Dobbs: sometimes it's not good to interfere and get involved.

[42:45] Bob Dobbs: So

[42:47] Bob Dobbs: Right now,

[42:48] Bob Dobbs: there are all kinds of voters for Trump,

[42:54] Bob Dobbs: Trump supporters,

[42:55] Bob Dobbs: 74 million is the iconic figure they toss around,

[42:59] Bob Dobbs: who are trying to figure out whether to do something about what they think is an abomination,

[43:04] Bob Dobbs: which is the Biden takeover,

[43:07] Bob Dobbs: right?

[43:07] Bob Dobbs: And who's to say whether you get involved or not,

[43:10] Bob Dobbs: if the public becomes indifferent and accepts Biden or others try to blow him up?

[43:16] Bob Dobbs: It's hard to judge which action is correct,

[43:21] Bob Dobbs: because if we are in real trouble,

[43:23] Bob Dobbs: which you talk about occasionally,

[43:27] Bob Dobbs: something should be done and always was done.

[43:31] Bob Dobbs: Might be a war,

[43:33] Bob Dobbs: but it gets to some resolution after a while.

[43:37] Bob Dobbs: So I mean both all the time.

[43:42] Bob Dobbs: So yoga,

[43:43] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan said in...

[43:44] Bob Dobbs: Forbes magazine in 66,

[43:47] Bob Dobbs: self-entertainment is the new yoga.

[43:50] Bob Dobbs: I consider my interaction with people anti-environment or technologies as a yoga,

[43:57] Bob Dobbs: a yoga thing.

[43:59] Bob Dobbs: And I mean by yoga,

[44:00] Bob Dobbs: a kind of a discipline.

[44:02] Bob Dobbs: I don't do sitting on a mat and put my hands on my kneecaps and get into this meditative posture.

[44:09] Bob Dobbs: I see a lot of it on the beach.

[44:10] Bob Dobbs: People are gazing into the sun and that.

[44:13] Bob Dobbs: I consider my walking along observing people and looking at their enrapture in the cell phone and noticing it,

[44:20] Bob Dobbs: being aware of it,

[44:21] Bob Dobbs: as my yoga.

[44:23] Bob Dobbs: You see what I'm saying?

[44:26] Cameron McEwen: Yes,

[44:26] Cameron McEwen: I do.

[44:28] Cameron McEwen: I think what I was trying to ask about,

[44:30] Cameron McEwen: though,

[44:30] Cameron McEwen: was something slightly different,

[44:32] Cameron McEwen: and that is that when we speak of the self-absorption of people in their phones,

[44:42] Cameron McEwen: and see it as,

[44:46] Cameron McEwen: in many respects,

[44:47] Cameron McEwen: an empty gesture.

[44:50] Cameron McEwen: right,

[44:50] Cameron McEwen: an empty mind,

[44:52] Cameron McEwen: empty of external world,

[44:54] Cameron McEwen: looking at an empty apparatus with empty junk going on there.

[45:06] Cameron McEwen: That replay of what was already seen in the 19th century by Nietzsche and others,

[45:16] Cameron McEwen: That replay.

[45:18] Cameron McEwen: may be the only way that the world actually can digest something like that

[45:29] Cameron McEwen: 19th century insight.

[45:31] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[45:31] Bob Dobbs: what do you say?

[45:31] Bob Dobbs: The replay is the only way we can digest it.

[45:34] Bob Dobbs: Is that what you said?

[45:36] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[45:36] Cameron McEwen: I'm saying,

[45:37] Cameron McEwen: well,

[45:37] Cameron McEwen: maybe it's the only way,

[45:39] Cameron McEwen: right?

[45:39] Cameron McEwen: So when Nietzsche foresees the end of the apparent world,

[45:48] Cameron McEwen: One thing he could be seen as saying is that we're going to blow up the whole goddamn thing,

[45:55] Cameron McEwen: and that's the end of the apparent world,

[45:58] Cameron McEwen: right?

[45:59] Cameron McEwen: Or he could be saying,

[46:01] Cameron McEwen: this is the problem,

[46:03] Cameron McEwen: the riddle that needs to be solved,

[46:07] Cameron McEwen: right?

[46:07] Cameron McEwen: We need to go through the vanishing point in order to come up with a sustainable world.

[46:17] Cameron McEwen: sustainable notion of human being,

[46:19] Cameron McEwen: if you will.

[46:20] Cameron McEwen: So if we're going to live through,

[46:29] Cameron McEwen: in many different takings of the word through,

[46:36] Cameron McEwen: if we're going to live through to a sustainable world and to sustainable human relationships and stuff,

[46:44] Cameron McEwen: then we have to ask,

[46:46] Cameron McEwen: what is the

[46:47] Cameron McEwen: process through which that happens.

[46:51] Cameron McEwen: And one answer to that might be that the collective,

[46:58] Cameron McEwen: Innis numbness,

[47:01] Cameron McEwen: Innis ignorance of what it's actually doing,

[47:06] Cameron McEwen: needs to assume that problem as a kind of world digestive process.

[47:16] Bob Dobbs: A political act,

[47:17] Cameron McEwen: you mean?

[47:20] Cameron McEwen: No,

[47:20] Cameron McEwen: not a political act.

[47:21] Cameron McEwen: Not as something that's completely unconscious,

[47:24] Cameron McEwen: but it's living out what language has always done.

[47:30] Cameron McEwen: Language has always taken whatever modifications were thrown at it and digested it and adopted it and gone on as language.

[47:43] Cameron McEwen: And what Joyce is doing in Finnegans Wake,

[47:46] Cameron McEwen: one of the things he's doing is he's saying,

[47:48] Cameron McEwen: well,

[47:49] Cameron McEwen: human beings aren't in charge of these processes.

[47:53] Cameron McEwen: These processes go on as if dreamt or as if seen in a trance.

[48:04] Cameron McEwen: And yet,

[48:07] Cameron McEwen: these processes are what the...

[48:12] Cameron McEwen: individual and the individual's family are.

[48:18] Bob Dobbs: So you're saying the solution is there in the digestive process?

[48:26] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[48:26] Cameron McEwen: really,

[48:26] Cameron McEwen: I was asking if that's what you had in mind.

[48:30] Bob Dobbs: Half of me,

[48:31] Cameron McEwen: or maybe one quarter of me does.

[48:35] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[48:35] Bob Dobbs: no.

[48:37] Bob Dobbs: You know that,

[48:38] Bob Dobbs: I think it's Alexander Pope's,

[48:40] Bob Dobbs: the essay.

[48:41] Bob Dobbs: he wrote the essay on man or of man,

[48:44] Bob Dobbs: the essay on man.

[48:46] Bob Dobbs: I think that ends with whatever is,

[48:48] Bob Dobbs: is right.

[48:50] Bob Dobbs: You remember that,

[48:51] Bob Dobbs: if that is the last line?

[48:52] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[48:52] Cameron McEwen: I remember you mentioning it in the past.

[48:55] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[48:55] Bob Dobbs: I thought about it for a long time because every argument possible in the world can be shone on that.

[49:04] Bob Dobbs: Is it satirical?

[49:06] Bob Dobbs: Is it actually a profound piece?

[49:09] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[49:09] Bob Dobbs: like the media ecology that McLuhan said we require,

[49:13] Bob Dobbs: he actually saw it happening in the updates of language,

[49:17] Bob Dobbs: the updating of words in the media processes.

[49:22] Bob Dobbs: For example,

[49:22] Bob Dobbs: when the printing press came in,

[49:24] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[49:25] Bob Dobbs: stepped up the eye,

[49:26] Bob Dobbs: there needed to be some balance in the ears,

[49:28] Bob Dobbs: so opera got made.

[49:30] Bob Dobbs: Humans solved it,

[49:32] Bob Dobbs: you know.

[49:33] Bob Dobbs: We're solving things.

[49:35] Bob Dobbs: But we also have anxiety.

[49:38] Bob Dobbs: The stages of apprehension,

[49:40] Bob Dobbs: the stages of apprehension meaning understanding,

[49:42] Bob Dobbs: or the stages of getting more and more nervous,

[49:46] Bob Dobbs: right?

[49:47] Bob Dobbs: Both are there.

[49:47] Cameron McEwen: There's always the two faces.

[49:49] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[49:50] Cameron McEwen: The Janus phenomenon.

[49:52] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[49:52] Bob Dobbs: the tragedy and the comedy.

[49:54] Bob Dobbs: And

[49:55] Bob Dobbs: I think people...

[49:57] Bob Dobbs: instinctively know that,

[50:00] Bob Dobbs: but they have different ways of talking.

[50:03] Bob Dobbs: And you have to talk a certain way in a certain group.

[50:05] Bob Dobbs: You can't talk another way.

[50:07] Bob Dobbs: And that's just talking.

[50:08] Bob Dobbs: That's a large part of our history.

[50:11] Bob Dobbs: But now,

[50:12] Bob Dobbs: what kind of YouTube do you make?

[50:14] Bob Dobbs: That's your talking.

[50:16] Bob Dobbs: They say the people,

[50:18] Bob Dobbs: the kids are very obsessive about their face when they get on Instagram or how they look.

[50:24] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[50:25] Bob Dobbs: this...

[50:25] Bob Dobbs: endless preoccupation of getting it right according to your interpretation of what the tone or pitch of anti-environment you're the bubble you're trying to be uh relevant in uh you have to know what it is so there's so many different what McLuhan would call maybe subcultures uh

[50:44] Bob Dobbs: genres of every kind of human media and communication that nobody can keep up

[50:52] Bob Dobbs: with the yoga or the discipline of being correct.

[50:56] Bob Dobbs: So there's a lot of misunderstanding,

[50:58] Bob Dobbs: which began with 1.0.

[51:00] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[51:01] Bob Dobbs: emailing and communicating digitally caused a lot of violence in people's relationships.

[51:09] Bob Dobbs: That didn't stop them.

[51:11] Bob Dobbs: They keep going in there.

[51:12] Bob Dobbs: They might have to move to another forum or another place because they got kicked out.

[51:17] Bob Dobbs: But now,

[51:19] Bob Dobbs: think of a little village.

[51:21] Bob Dobbs: and people are living,

[51:22] Bob Dobbs: and McLuhan used to point out that Billings had a lot of tensions and suppressed violence,

[51:28] Bob Dobbs: so the women meet at the well,

[51:31] Bob Dobbs: and they're talking,

[51:31] Bob Dobbs: and they've got their alliances and their jealousies,

[51:34] Bob Dobbs: and all this crap's going on.

[51:37] Bob Dobbs: Tension of consciousness,

[51:38] Bob Dobbs: the dynamic symmetry of tensions among proportions.

[51:43] Bob Dobbs: It's always happening.

[51:46] Bob Dobbs: I call that simply merging and blocking.

[51:51] Bob Dobbs: We now do it with huge anti-environment,

[51:54] Bob Dobbs: which also shrunk.

[51:56] Bob Dobbs: And right now,

[51:59] Bob Dobbs: when I'm on the radio,

[52:01] Bob Dobbs: there's a chat line,

[52:02] Bob Dobbs: and people are commenting,

[52:04] Bob Dobbs: insulting,

[52:05] Bob Dobbs: all kinds of crazy reactions to what I'm saying.

[52:09] Bob Dobbs: But I'm talking to people who are speaking,

[52:12] Bob Dobbs: who are there on the phone,

[52:13] Bob Dobbs: and I've got to pay attention to them.

[52:15] Bob Dobbs: I can't respond to all this commentary that's going on on the chat line,

[52:18] Bob Dobbs: you know?

[52:20] Bob Dobbs: And so it's an absurd situation.

[52:22] Bob Dobbs: A lot of communication going on,

[52:25] Bob Dobbs: and you only get to respond to a little tiny part.

[52:28] Bob Dobbs: And I don't know who these people are,

[52:31] Bob Dobbs: a lot of them.

[52:31] Bob Dobbs: They change their names or they're different people every week.

[52:34] Bob Dobbs: And they make,

[52:35] Bob Dobbs: if I go back and later review their comments,

[52:38] Bob Dobbs: very good stuff.

[52:39] Bob Dobbs: I'd love to have talked about it.

[52:41] Bob Dobbs: But what's amazing to me is that these people come in,

[52:44] Bob Dobbs: post it,

[52:45] Bob Dobbs: and they don't care if I get to it.

[52:48] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[52:49] Bob Dobbs: there's an incredible difference going on,

[52:51] Bob Dobbs: as well as super involvement.

[52:53] Bob Dobbs: So all directions are happening now in front of us or hearing.

[53:02] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[53:02] Bob Dobbs: in a simpler village,

[53:05] Bob Dobbs: one could make the case that a lot's going on,

[53:07] Bob Dobbs: because,

[53:08] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[53:08] Bob Dobbs: I remember the famous story of this tribe.

[53:12] Bob Dobbs: Everybody in the morning had to tell what they dreamt.

[53:15] Bob Dobbs: They had to process their dreams,

[53:17] Bob Dobbs: discuss them before the day unfolded.

[53:20] Bob Dobbs: You ever heard of that anthropological story?

[53:23] Cameron McEwen: No,

[53:23] Cameron McEwen: I haven't,

[53:24] Cameron McEwen: but it makes a certain amount of sense,

[53:26] Cameron McEwen: sure.

[53:27] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[53:27] Bob Dobbs: like humans are always balancing their interaction in the older days,

[53:34] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[53:34] Bob Dobbs: around speech and gesture.

[53:37] Bob Dobbs: But now you've got corporations doing press conferences.

[53:40] Bob Dobbs: all through the day.

[53:41] Bob Dobbs: And I think they have to do that.

[53:43] Bob Dobbs: And it's supposed to go to somebody out there that's going to respond and appreciate the press conference.

[53:49] Bob Dobbs: It's so absurd the amount of communications going on.

[53:53] Bob Dobbs: And then you find out that,

[53:54] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[53:55] Bob Dobbs: the National Security Agency or something can process and record every phone call,

[53:59] Bob Dobbs: every email.

[54:02] Bob Dobbs: It's all there,

[54:03] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[54:03] Bob Dobbs: if somebody needs it.

[54:05] Bob Dobbs: And so everybody is waiting for someone to make a false move.

[54:09] Bob Dobbs: And that's what happens on Twitter.

[54:11] Bob Dobbs: You make the wrong statement in the wrong place,

[54:13] Bob Dobbs: you get flamed,

[54:14] Bob Dobbs: and you're fired.

[54:14] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?

[54:16] Bob Dobbs: So if awareness,

[54:19] Bob Dobbs: as Charles Manson said,

[54:20] Bob Dobbs: it was paranoia,

[54:22] Bob Dobbs: we are at the highest decibels,

[54:23] Bob Dobbs: that's McLuhan's word,

[54:25] Bob Dobbs: of awareness and paranoia.

[54:28] Bob Dobbs: Everybody,

[54:29] Bob Dobbs: as they get more involved.

[54:30] Bob Dobbs: What a crazy,

[54:31] Bob Dobbs: it's like we're engaged in ESP,

[54:34] Bob Dobbs: and ESP is a really anti-environment.

[54:41] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[54:42] Bob Dobbs: so that's the present,

[54:43] Bob Dobbs: those tensions.

[54:45] Bob Dobbs: And maybe people always had those tensions,

[54:47] Bob Dobbs: and you have that great sentence,

[54:48] Bob Dobbs: a dynamic symmetry of tensions among proportions.

[54:52] Bob Dobbs: I think that's such a great...

[54:55] Bob Dobbs: a statement of the interactions of our multiple mirrors and senses.

[54:59] Bob Dobbs: And McLuhan says,

[55:01] Bob Dobbs: if you get it right,

[55:03] Bob Dobbs: you've got the golden section,

[55:05] Bob Dobbs: which some kind of balance or symmetry or perfection appears.

[55:09] Bob Dobbs: They don't last long.

[55:10] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[55:11] Bob Dobbs: so try to say your question again.

[55:14] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if I'm answering it.

[55:16] Bob Dobbs: I'd like to hear you attempt to say the question properly.

[55:20] Bob Dobbs: Let's have you say it better.

[55:23] Bob Dobbs: What is it the question you're directing at me?

[55:28] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[55:29] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[55:30] Cameron McEwen: originally I was talking about your formula chart and whether my understanding of the formula chart was a proper or satisfactory introduction

[55:46] Cameron McEwen: to your Tiny Note chart.

[55:49] Cameron McEwen: And then we got off from there.

[55:53] Cameron McEwen: talking about memes.

[55:57] Bob Dobbs: Which was my attempt to answer it.

[55:58] Bob Dobbs: So what was your initial,

[56:00] Bob Dobbs: can you remember apparently at least what you said that you thought the formula chart was doing?

[56:07] Cameron McEwen: Yes,

[56:08] Cameron McEwen: all right.

[56:10] Cameron McEwen: Before I do that,

[56:11] Cameron McEwen: though,

[56:11] Cameron McEwen: I'll just mention that my understanding of the last row,

[56:18] Cameron McEwen: horizontal row of the formula chart,

[56:22] Cameron McEwen: I didn't.

[56:23] Cameron McEwen: didn't really get into uh holeopathic˜ cliche probes and the satellite and laser beam interaction interaction right and so then a lot of what we just talked about for almost an hour was

[56:38] Cameron McEwen: um the uh your understanding of holeopathic˜ cliche probes and satellite laser beams and then from that we got into uh whether or not the

[56:54] Cameron McEwen: participation in memes could be understood as a cliche probe or only as cliche.

[57:03] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[57:04] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[57:05] Cameron McEwen: And so then the whole question came up,

[57:09] Cameron McEwen: or the background question,

[57:10] Cameron McEwen: at any rate,

[57:11] Cameron McEwen: came up,

[57:12] Cameron McEwen: what is a probe?

[57:15] Cameron McEwen: And then we discussed the fact that probes can be understood.

[57:21] Cameron McEwen: stood on many different levels and that probes are always going on whether we know it or not.

[57:30] Cameron McEwen: And so then the question came up,

[57:33] Cameron McEwen: at least in background mode,

[57:35] Cameron McEwen: of whether or not a certain kind of probing is going on now that might be different slash critical.

[57:51] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[57:53] Cameron McEwen: Because of our technology and because of the homogenization of the world,

[57:58] Cameron McEwen: the melting,

[58:00] Cameron McEwen: that we've come to a point where either we solve or find as solved certain problems or we're going to blow ourselves out of existence.

[58:13] Bob Dobbs: And elections are nowhere near the appropriate response to that dilemma.

[58:19] Cameron McEwen: No,

[58:20] Cameron McEwen: of course not.

[58:21] Bob Dobbs: Of course not.

[58:22] Bob Dobbs: Everybody knows that.

[58:25] Bob Dobbs: But they spend a whole two years focusing on it.

[58:30] Bob Dobbs: It's a ridiculous red herring situation.

[58:36] Bob Dobbs: But then McLuhan said we're distracted from distraction by distraction.

[58:40] Bob Dobbs: Being distracted helps the ecology balance.

[58:45] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[58:45] Cameron McEwen: that's...

[58:48] Cameron McEwen: an observation that belongs in the question of what is a probe.

[58:54] Cameron McEwen: If people are actually probing in a certain way in their distractions,

[59:02] Cameron McEwen: then a different kind of understanding of what is going on in human society is necessary.

[59:13] Cameron McEwen: Actually,

[59:13] Cameron McEwen: that brings me back to another point I wanted to make about the formula chart.

[59:17] Cameron McEwen: I'll just make it here in brackets,

[59:19] Cameron McEwen: although you may want to run with it.

[59:22] Cameron McEwen: And that is that aside from the energy of thought that you bring to these charts,

[59:29] Cameron McEwen: the formula chart is illustrative of how one of the chief problems that you're shuffling all the time is the question of time.

[59:43] Cameron McEwen: time.

[59:43] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[59:44] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[59:45] Cameron McEwen: And that's because what the chart sets out.

[59:50] Cameron McEwen: is that there are causes that sort of run before themselves.

[59:56] Cameron McEwen: There's a shadow before the event.

[1:00:01] Cameron McEwen: And so the effect shows itself before the cause.

[1:00:07] Cameron McEwen: And then when the cause finally does arrive,

[1:00:11] Cameron McEwen: then it shows itself as the effect of the effect that is now the cause.

[1:00:20] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:00:20] Bob Dobbs: they merge.

[1:00:24] Bob Dobbs: Which I have up top.

[1:00:25] Bob Dobbs: I have that.

[1:00:26] Bob Dobbs: Causes merging with effects and effects preceding causes.

[1:00:30] Bob Dobbs: It's there.

[1:00:31] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[1:00:32] Cameron McEwen: And what happens with this view of history is that you have a kind of maelstrom effect where

[1:00:48] Cameron McEwen: the attempt.

[1:00:50] Cameron McEwen: is being made by this shuffling of the cards of thought.

[1:00:54] Cameron McEwen: The attempt is being made in your brain to understand the new way of looking at time and looking at history.

[1:01:10] Cameron McEwen: Because the Gutenberg-Gauzy is still so powerful in us,

[1:01:15] Cameron McEwen: we tend to think that

[1:01:20] Cameron McEwen: If we're going to understand the story,

[1:01:22] Cameron McEwen: then we have to understand it in sequence.

[1:01:25] Cameron McEwen: And we have to understand it in definable bits in that sequence.

[1:01:32] Cameron McEwen: And of course,

[1:01:33] Cameron McEwen: all of this talk of sequence and definable bits and time's arrow is what

[1:01:40] Cameron McEwen: Gutenberg Galaxy is.

[1:01:42] Cameron McEwen: And if we're going to think beyond it...

[1:01:48] Cameron McEwen: and where both the danger and possible saving lies,

[1:01:56] Cameron McEwen: then what we have to be able to do is think not in sequence,

[1:02:01] Cameron McEwen: not in sequential bits,

[1:02:06] Cameron McEwen: but in something like the thinking that's going on in your chart here.

[1:02:11] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[1:02:13] Bob Dobbs: the Tiny Note is to move it out of the sequence of the formula chart.

[1:02:20] Cameron McEwen: Gotcha.

[1:02:20] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[1:02:21] Cameron McEwen: And so that's,

[1:02:22] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:02:24] Cameron McEwen: and in that sense,

[1:02:25] Cameron McEwen: I can see the Tiny Note chart as a kind of effusion,

[1:02:34] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:02:34] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:02:35] Cameron McEwen: the only impression I have...

[1:02:37] Bob Dobbs: DI?

[1:02:38] Bob Dobbs: Diffusion?

[1:02:39] Bob Dobbs: DI?

[1:02:40] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:02:40] Cameron McEwen: effusion.

[1:02:41] Cameron McEwen: Okay.

[1:02:41] Cameron McEwen: Effusion.

[1:02:42] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:02:43] Cameron McEwen: Flowering.

[1:02:43] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:02:46] Cameron McEwen: I understand almost nothing of the Tiny Note chart except.

[1:02:49] Cameron McEwen: that practically everything that has ever occurred in the history of the world is either there or implied there.

[1:02:59] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[1:03:02] Bob Dobbs: I charted,

[1:03:03] Bob Dobbs: I made Finnegans Wake into a chart.

[1:03:07] Bob Dobbs: Herculean Act.

[1:03:11] Cameron McEwen: Okay,

[1:03:11] Cameron McEwen: so let's just then,

[1:03:16] Cameron McEwen: if all of Finnegans Wake is there,

[1:03:19] Cameron McEwen: If you're attempting to clean out the stables by redirecting a river like Hercules,

[1:03:30] Cameron McEwen: let's just go back to my question from the final line of the chart.

[1:03:36] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:03:36] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[1:03:38] Cameron McEwen: The presidential mask and flag is you.

[1:03:43] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[1:03:46] Cameron McEwen: When you say me,

[1:03:47] Cameron McEwen: that's Bob,

[1:03:47] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:03:47] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:03:48] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:03:49] Cameron McEwen: Okay.

[1:03:50] Cameron McEwen: And then that goes on to lockdown Bob Rule.

[1:03:56] Cameron McEwen: And what I was saying is that what I find interesting there is to consider you as an individual person,

[1:04:09] Cameron McEwen: a chemical body person.

[1:04:11] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:04:12] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[1:04:12] Cameron McEwen: So our sense of all of this stuff that's...

[1:04:17] Cameron McEwen: going on with the holeopathic˜ cliche probes and their interaction with the satellite and laser beam anti-environment something that is absolutely huge but our only access to

[1:04:33] Cameron McEwen: it is in individual fleshly people yeah yeah right and so you have what I see is coming out of this bottom line

[1:04:46] Cameron McEwen: You have the...

[1:04:50] Cameron McEwen: I forgot what we were calling it.

[1:04:52] Cameron McEwen: What's the line that expresses sort of the depth of the whole chart on the bottom extreme left?

[1:05:05] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:05:06] Bob Dobbs: what is that?

[1:05:06] Bob Dobbs: The flat line.

[1:05:08] Cameron McEwen: The flat line,

[1:05:09] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[1:05:09] Cameron McEwen: Good,

[1:05:09] Cameron McEwen: exactly.

[1:05:10] Cameron McEwen: So the flat line represents both the

[1:05:18] Cameron McEwen: end of something and the potential new something.

[1:05:22] Bob Dobbs: Yep.

[1:05:23] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[1:05:24] Cameron McEwen: Yep.

[1:05:24] Cameron McEwen: And that needs to be born out of individual chemical bodies with all of their limitations and stuff,

[1:05:36] Cameron McEwen: but somehow with the ability to think this stuff.

[1:05:42] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:05:43] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[1:05:43] Cameron McEwen: Which I guess is going to get expressed in the next chart.

[1:05:47] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:05:47] Cameron McEwen: But it just seems to me that if somebody were looking at the formula chart,

[1:05:52] Cameron McEwen: they would have to realize that this sort of what might on the one hand be seen as a exaltation or inflation,

[1:06:01] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[1:06:02] Cameron McEwen: Bob as the president and Bob as the lockdown rule.

[1:06:06] Cameron McEwen: It has to be understood that,

[1:06:09] Cameron McEwen: number one,

[1:06:10] Cameron McEwen: this is a chemical body person and not some sort of.

[1:06:16] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[1:06:17] Cameron McEwen: Weltgeist,

[1:06:19] Cameron McEwen: world spirit enveloping the times or something,

[1:06:22] Cameron McEwen: number one.

[1:06:23] Cameron McEwen: And number two,

[1:06:24] Cameron McEwen: the lockdown Bob rule did not actually rule anything.

[1:06:32] Cameron McEwen: Everything was chaotic and got out of hand.

[1:06:39] Cameron McEwen: And so we need to,

[1:06:40] Cameron McEwen: if we go on to the Tiny Note chart from here,

[1:06:44] Cameron McEwen: We have to understand all of these sort of conflicts between end and beginning,

[1:06:52] Cameron McEwen: between great insight.

[1:06:55] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:06:56] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.

[1:06:56] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.

[1:06:58] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:06:58] Bob Dobbs: I think Alan Watts,

[1:07:00] Bob Dobbs: he wrote once,

[1:07:00] Bob Dobbs: total bang equals total void.

[1:07:06] Bob Dobbs: I think of that right now.

[1:07:07] Bob Dobbs: It occurs to me.

[1:07:08] Bob Dobbs: So let me just talk a bit about this.

[1:07:10] Bob Dobbs: As I look at it and hear you talk about it.

[1:07:13] Bob Dobbs: This is amazingly prophetic.

[1:07:15] Bob Dobbs: This is 1995.

[1:07:16] Bob Dobbs: This is,

[1:07:17] Bob Dobbs: the internet has just started,

[1:07:19] Bob Dobbs: which inflates people in a different way than Web 2.0 does.

[1:07:24] Bob Dobbs: Web 2.0 does make everybody a god techne-wise,

[1:07:30] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:07:30] Bob Dobbs: to use a modern term,

[1:07:32] Bob Dobbs: techne,

[1:07:33] Bob Dobbs: technically.

[1:07:35] Bob Dobbs: And I like Kroker idea to express the dire situation of the flatline.

[1:07:40] Bob Dobbs: Kroker says our genes left our bodies and leaped into the virtual technologies.

[1:07:47] Bob Dobbs: Our genes abandoned us.

[1:07:49] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[1:07:49] Bob Dobbs: he's reaching,

[1:07:51] Bob Dobbs: he's trying to figure out how to express how dire it is,

[1:07:53] Bob Dobbs: how flatlined we are.

[1:07:56] Bob Dobbs: So the flatline happened in 1945,

[1:08:03] Bob Dobbs: then with television,

[1:08:04] Bob Dobbs: then with the satellite.

[1:08:06] Bob Dobbs: I'm showing the ratios or phases of flatlining.

[1:08:11] Bob Dobbs: And then we become completely conscious of it,

[1:08:13] Bob Dobbs: somewhere recently,

[1:08:15] Bob Dobbs: and we're witnessing memes fighting the satellite communication structure that's happening,

[1:08:24] Bob Dobbs: which we don't even think of satellites now.

[1:08:26] Bob Dobbs: It's just,

[1:08:26] Bob Dobbs: it's all over the place,

[1:08:28] Bob Dobbs: and it's a huge surveillance thing that's going on.

[1:08:32] Bob Dobbs: So everybody becomes a me.

[1:08:35] Bob Dobbs: So this can be a Trump-Leo.

[1:08:37] Bob Dobbs: The me isn't necessarily Bob,

[1:08:40] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:08:40] Bob Dobbs: It's just you.

[1:08:41] Bob Dobbs: Anybody is flated by Web 2.0.

[1:08:44] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[1:08:45] Bob Dobbs: they can broadcast,

[1:08:45] Bob Dobbs: do all kinds of things.

[1:08:47] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:08:47] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[1:08:48] Cameron McEwen: That's why I asked if it was Bob or not.

[1:08:50] Bob Dobbs: It is,

[1:08:51] Bob Dobbs: but not just Bob.

[1:08:52] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:08:53] Cameron McEwen: no,

[1:08:53] Cameron McEwen: I understand.

[1:08:54] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:08:54] Cameron McEwen: yeah,

[1:08:54] Cameron McEwen: exactly.

[1:08:55] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:08:57] Cameron McEwen: There is no just.

[1:08:59] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[1:09:00] Bob Dobbs: And so lockdown can mean that I'm in jail,

[1:09:04] Bob Dobbs: you know?

[1:09:04] Bob Dobbs: I was ruling.

[1:09:06] Bob Dobbs: And then they stopped it.

[1:09:08] Bob Dobbs: They locked it down.

[1:09:09] Bob Dobbs: They put Bob away.

[1:09:10] Bob Dobbs: It was that way.

[1:09:11] Bob Dobbs: Or it can mean that Bob locked down everybody and rule.

[1:09:19] Bob Dobbs: It can be what?

[1:09:20] Bob Dobbs: I don't know how one would rule today.

[1:09:23] Bob Dobbs: But I'm thinking as I look at this,

[1:09:24] Bob Dobbs: this is exactly what Trump did.

[1:09:27] Bob Dobbs: The me of Trump took over,

[1:09:30] Bob Dobbs: and he locked everybody down.

[1:09:33] Bob Dobbs: And he just monitored media.

[1:09:36] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:09:37] Bob Dobbs: the rumors are that he'd watch TV all night,

[1:09:39] Bob Dobbs: watch the media talk about him,

[1:09:41] Bob Dobbs: that he'd say something outrageous or do something the next day.

[1:09:45] Bob Dobbs: And he freed up the economy because he allowed black money to come in without being taxed.

[1:09:54] Bob Dobbs: So that caused all kinds of new circulation.

[1:09:57] Bob Dobbs: He did all kinds of crazy things.

[1:10:00] Bob Dobbs: All the time being erasable or being erased.

[1:10:05] Bob Dobbs: And everybody just said,

[1:10:06] Bob Dobbs: we're going to put up with this idiot for four years,

[1:10:08] Bob Dobbs: then we'll get rid of him.

[1:10:09] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?

[1:10:12] Bob Dobbs: I see,

[1:10:14] Bob Dobbs: to me,

[1:10:14] Bob Dobbs: that I was predicting the Trump phenomenon,

[1:10:18] Bob Dobbs: the narcissism of Trump,

[1:10:19] Bob Dobbs: or whatever people thought was this crazy guy who was just into it for himself.

[1:10:24] Bob Dobbs: He appeared to be,

[1:10:25] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:10:26] Bob Dobbs: And he didn't have to have normal chemical body wisdom.

[1:10:30] Bob Dobbs: communication skills.

[1:10:31] Bob Dobbs: He actually,

[1:10:32] Bob Dobbs: the more I was watching somebody,

[1:10:34] Bob Dobbs: Frank Luntz,

[1:10:35] Bob Dobbs: the pollster,

[1:10:36] Bob Dobbs: saying the shock was that every mistake Trump made in the old terms,

[1:10:41] Bob Dobbs: in the human terms,

[1:10:43] Bob Dobbs: enhanced his image.

[1:10:45] Bob Dobbs: And so the newspapers,

[1:10:47] Bob Dobbs: New York Times,

[1:10:47] Bob Dobbs: they didn't know what to do with this.

[1:10:48] Bob Dobbs: This is like,

[1:10:49] Bob Dobbs: what?

[1:10:50] Bob Dobbs: What,

[1:10:50] Bob Dobbs: they're going around and expose the next problem with him,

[1:10:53] Bob Dobbs: the next evil thing he did?

[1:10:55] Bob Dobbs: And you're just going to inflate him.

[1:10:57] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[1:10:58] Bob Dobbs: it must have been crazy in the New York Times office,

[1:11:01] Bob Dobbs: trying to figure out how to deal with this,

[1:11:03] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:11:04] Bob Dobbs: through the last four years.

[1:11:06] Bob Dobbs: I heard a couple of interviews with them,

[1:11:07] Bob Dobbs: and then they'd go in like doctors that check the pulse of the New York Times,

[1:11:12] Bob Dobbs: and they'd complain about the whole situation,

[1:11:14] Bob Dobbs: or how bad it was,

[1:11:15] Bob Dobbs: and how to even keep up,

[1:11:16] Bob Dobbs: and the guy is not stable,

[1:11:18] Bob Dobbs: he doesn't say the safe thing,

[1:11:20] Bob Dobbs: he changes it.

[1:11:21] Bob Dobbs: It was a wonderful performance by Trump and his multiple bodies.

[1:11:27] Bob Dobbs: If you wanted to,

[1:11:28] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:11:28] Bob Dobbs: screw the anarchistic impulse in art,

[1:11:34] Bob Dobbs: and the famous one is Stravinsky,

[1:11:35] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:11:35] Bob Dobbs: 1913 put on his,

[1:11:37] Bob Dobbs: whatever the Rite of Spring,

[1:11:38] Bob Dobbs: whatever it was,

[1:11:39] Bob Dobbs: and there was a riot because the sound is so different,

[1:11:42] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:11:43] Bob Dobbs: So the Dionysian,

[1:11:46] Bob Dobbs: what?

[1:11:47] Cameron McEwen: Major composers that were at the concert got up in the middle and ceremoniously walked out.

[1:11:57] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:11:58] Bob Dobbs: and so this becomes a great artwork,

[1:12:00] Bob Dobbs: but it disrupts,

[1:12:02] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:12:02] Bob Dobbs: the regular month,

[1:12:04] Bob Dobbs: these senses,

[1:12:04] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:12:05] Bob Dobbs: that quote McLuhan used.

[1:12:07] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:12:09] Cameron McEwen: it's a quotation from

[1:12:11] Cameron McEwen: Ron Bull or somebody like that.

[1:12:13] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:12:13] Bob Dobbs: or L'Autremont or might have been some other guy,

[1:12:19] Bob Dobbs: Rene somebody.

[1:12:20] Bob Dobbs: Who's the guy that they?

[1:12:22] Bob Dobbs: They talked about,

[1:12:23] Bob Dobbs: it might have been Rotermont.

[1:12:24] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:12:24] Bob Dobbs: he was too early.

[1:12:25] Bob Dobbs: There was another guy in the 20s that they occasionally quoted that people didn't know so well.

[1:12:32] Bob Dobbs: But anyways,

[1:12:34] Bob Dobbs: but yes,

[1:12:35] Bob Dobbs: now I'm thinking that is Artaud or

[1:12:38] Bob Dobbs: Rambo. You might be right.

[1:12:40] Bob Dobbs: The Regulament des Sense-making might be Rambo.

[1:12:45] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:12:45] Bob Dobbs: so

[1:12:46] Bob Dobbs: I see Trump,

[1:12:48] Bob Dobbs: and I wrote about it after,

[1:12:50] Bob Dobbs: in the spring of his...

[1:12:52] Bob Dobbs: First of this term,

[1:12:53] Bob Dobbs: I said,

[1:12:54] Bob Dobbs: this guy is doing the causative method of art,

[1:12:57] Bob Dobbs: not the ethical cathartic method.

[1:13:00] Bob Dobbs: And it is an incredible hijacking,

[1:13:03] Bob Dobbs: which you'll see in my Tiny Note chart.

[1:13:05] Bob Dobbs: That's Rumpelstiltskin.

[1:13:06] Bob Dobbs: He did a Rumpelstiltskin on everybody.

[1:13:11] Bob Dobbs: But many people were doing that in their

[1:13:14] Bob Dobbs: Web 2.0 lives,

[1:13:16] Bob Dobbs: interrupting,

[1:13:17] Bob Dobbs: trolling,

[1:13:18] Bob Dobbs: jumping into conversations.

[1:13:20] Bob Dobbs: hijacking them,

[1:13:21] Bob Dobbs: becoming known for it.

[1:13:22] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?

[1:13:23] Bob Dobbs: He really did express what people were doing in the exodus of communication.

[1:13:31] Bob Dobbs: And that's part of the point here.

[1:13:32] Bob Dobbs: Each president,

[1:13:34] Bob Dobbs: like a perfect word,

[1:13:36] Bob Dobbs: has perfect pitch for the tone of the time,

[1:13:40] Bob Dobbs: of the milieu,

[1:13:41] Bob Dobbs: or the media mix.

[1:13:44] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:13:45] Bob Dobbs: so you have this death and rebirth.

[1:13:50] Bob Dobbs: or flatlining and what could be seen as not negative,

[1:13:57] Bob Dobbs: not a flatlining.

[1:13:58] Bob Dobbs: All possibilities are there in that blank.

[1:14:01] Bob Dobbs: And so that's some of the meanings I was trying to get at.

[1:14:07] Bob Dobbs: And I think it was accurate.

[1:14:13] Bob Dobbs: We saw the me,

[1:14:15] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[1:14:15] Bob Dobbs: Tom Wolfe,

[1:14:17] Bob Dobbs: 1970s,

[1:14:17] Bob Dobbs: that was the me decade.

[1:14:19] Bob Dobbs: But we never saw a me in politics.

[1:14:23] Bob Dobbs: Clinton Ignatov.

[1:14:24] Bob Dobbs: He was considered a narcissist.

[1:14:27] Bob Dobbs: George Bush was a me.

[1:14:29] Bob Dobbs: He refused to read the newspapers.

[1:14:31] Bob Dobbs: And these are the public bullshit about these people,

[1:14:33] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:14:34] Bob Dobbs: We don't know what they did,

[1:14:35] Bob Dobbs: but they create mythologies,

[1:14:37] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:14:39] Bob Dobbs: That George Bush Jr.

[1:14:40] Bob Dobbs: didn't read the newspapers,

[1:14:41] Bob Dobbs: didn't care,

[1:14:42] Bob Dobbs: couldn't read almost.

[1:14:44] Bob Dobbs: So each one...

[1:14:47] Bob Dobbs: So then Obama was narcissistic because he was such a big collective hope,

[1:14:51] Bob Dobbs: and he didn't do anything that people expected.

[1:14:54] Bob Dobbs: He's too busy.

[1:14:55] Bob Dobbs: doing something else for himself.

[1:14:58] Bob Dobbs: And then Trump,

[1:14:59] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:14:59] Bob Dobbs: caps it off with the ultimate me.

[1:15:02] Bob Dobbs: And Biden's so much a me,

[1:15:04] Bob Dobbs: he doesn't even show up.

[1:15:10] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:15:11] Bob Dobbs: there's a lot to say about what we say about Biden,

[1:15:13] Bob Dobbs: but I like my opening line is,

[1:15:16] Bob Dobbs: Trump created involvement like a stutterer by not finishing his sentences.

[1:15:21] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:15:21] Bob Dobbs: Biden squared Trump,

[1:15:22] Bob Dobbs: went further,

[1:15:23] Bob Dobbs: and he didn't finish his syllables.

[1:15:28] Bob Dobbs: It's created great involvement.

[1:15:31] Bob Dobbs: So involved were people in it that he didn't have to campaign.

[1:15:37] Bob Dobbs: So that's a flat line image.

[1:15:39] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.

[1:15:40] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:15:41] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:15:41] Bob Dobbs: so I think

[1:15:43] Bob Dobbs: I've laid it out and got close to answering your question somehow.

[1:15:49] Bob Dobbs: Let's go to the sacred Tiny Note chart,

[1:15:52] Bob Dobbs: which is what...

[1:15:53] Cameron McEwen: Okay,

[1:15:54] Cameron McEwen: good.

[1:15:54] Bob Dobbs: Everybody knows about the Tiny Note chart.

[1:15:56] Bob Dobbs: They don't know about the formula chart.

[1:15:59] Bob Dobbs: The Tiny Note chart is the one I put out there.

[1:16:02] Bob Dobbs: By 1996,

[1:16:05] Bob Dobbs: it got printed in a punk pop culture magazine called Flipside,

[1:16:12] Bob Dobbs: which was very popular among

[1:16:15] Bob Dobbs: 18-year-olds.

[1:16:17] Bob Dobbs: There were a lot of people writing in it about their local scenes from Minnesota or some obscure place.

[1:16:24] Bob Dobbs: And they'd make a big deal out of it.

[1:16:27] Bob Dobbs: This was during the zine,

[1:16:28] Bob Dobbs: but it was a bigger,

[1:16:29] Bob Dobbs: thicker zine in the

[1:16:31] Bob Dobbs: 90s. And,

[1:16:32] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:16:32] Bob Dobbs: it circulated all over the major stores.

[1:16:36] Bob Dobbs: And eventually,

[1:16:39] Bob Dobbs: some of these crazy columnists,

[1:16:40] Bob Dobbs: and they were very much younger than me,

[1:16:44] Bob Dobbs: one guy started complaining about me.

[1:16:46] Bob Dobbs: He said,

[1:16:47] Bob Dobbs: we are not a real magazine if we let Bob Dobbs be in here.

[1:16:52] Bob Dobbs: Which was hilarious.

[1:16:54] Bob Dobbs: And nobody cared.

[1:16:55] Bob Dobbs: Nobody listened to his complaint.

[1:16:57] Bob Dobbs: The editors wanted me in there,

[1:16:58] Bob Dobbs: so I just carried on.

[1:17:00] Bob Dobbs: But it was funny seeing generational conflict happening,

[1:17:05] Bob Dobbs: you know.

[1:17:05] Bob Dobbs: Somehow,

[1:17:07] Bob Dobbs: my chart did not appeal to the young kids,

[1:17:11] Bob Dobbs: or even having a Chardin there.

[1:17:14] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:17:15] Cameron McEwen: At some point,

[1:17:16] Cameron McEwen: I believe in eight books or...

[1:17:22] Cameron McEwen: Maybe an Amazon or something.

[1:17:25] Cameron McEwen: I saw that somebody was selling either a complete set or nearly a complete set of that magazine,

[1:17:34] Cameron McEwen: and so I bought it.

[1:17:35] Bob Dobbs: What?

[1:17:36] Bob Dobbs: You got all the flip sides?

[1:17:38] Cameron McEwen: I think so.

[1:17:39] Cameron McEwen: Wow.

[1:17:40] Cameron McEwen: I don't know.

[1:17:41] Cameron McEwen: I haven't thought about this for

[1:17:43] Cameron McEwen: 10 or 15 years or maybe even longer,

[1:17:47] Cameron McEwen: but

[1:17:47] Cameron McEwen: I believe somewhere,

[1:17:49] Cameron McEwen: maybe in the garage or something,

[1:17:50] Cameron McEwen: I have these things.

[1:17:53] Bob Dobbs: Why did you buy them?

[1:17:54] Bob Dobbs: Am I responsible for that act?

[1:17:57] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:17:58] Cameron McEwen: well,

[1:17:58] Cameron McEwen: I knew that you'd been in the magazine,

[1:18:00] Cameron McEwen: and that basically they were selling the complete set for

[1:18:04] Cameron McEwen: $11 or something.

[1:18:07] Cameron McEwen: And so I thought,

[1:18:08] Cameron McEwen: what the hell,

[1:18:09] Cameron McEwen: and I just bought it.

[1:18:10] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:18:10] Bob Dobbs: you may have more than me.

[1:18:12] Bob Dobbs: I've got all of them since I was in it,

[1:18:15] Bob Dobbs: and they're out in the garage.

[1:18:16] Bob Dobbs: We should go look at them together at some point.

[1:18:21] Cameron McEwen: All right.

[1:18:22] Cameron McEwen: We'll take that as a task for the future.

[1:18:25] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[1:18:25] Cameron McEwen: I don't even know if I can find them.

[1:18:28] Cameron McEwen: Right,

[1:18:28] Bob Dobbs: but that's incredible.

[1:18:29] Bob Dobbs: That's pretty good detective work on me.

[1:18:32] Bob Dobbs: But let's go find out where Bob was.

[1:18:36] Bob Dobbs: I take that as a great compliment.

[1:18:38] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:18:39] Cameron McEwen: sure.

[1:18:39] Bob Dobbs: Tracking me down.

[1:18:40] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:18:40] Bob Dobbs: I think it was important what I did in that place in a flatline situation.

[1:18:47] Bob Dobbs: Remember,

[1:18:47] Bob Dobbs: the flatline is 1990 to 2020.

[1:18:51] Bob Dobbs: 30-year flatline.

[1:18:52] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:18:52] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[1:18:56] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:18:56] Bob Dobbs: so let me explain the first vision,

[1:19:02] Bob Dobbs: the first structure,

[1:19:03] Bob Dobbs: which I didn't complete.

[1:19:04] Bob Dobbs: We got cut off.

[1:19:06] Bob Dobbs: So we're in New York City,

[1:19:08] Bob Dobbs: and the introduction of how we got to New York is at the end of the last recording,

[1:19:12] Bob Dobbs: so they can hear that.

[1:19:14] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:19:14] Cameron McEwen: We got cut off just where the people in New York contact.

[1:19:20] Cameron McEwen: you and your wife in Toronto and ask if you're interested in a certain machine and then they come to Toronto I believe to talk with you guys maybe to do a demo,

[1:19:33] Cameron McEwen: a dog and pony show maybe and at that it's exactly at that point where they're coming to Toronto to see you where we got cut off.

[1:19:43] Bob Dobbs: Well

[1:19:44] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[1:19:45] Bob Dobbs: and I will pick it up from there,

[1:19:47] Bob Dobbs: but I do talk about the recording I have.

[1:19:53] Bob Dobbs: That's in August 1990,

[1:19:55] Bob Dobbs: and Carolyn used it.

[1:19:57] Bob Dobbs: for a year till the last week of December 1991 and really liked it and it was working on our AIDS patients and other problems and so then that was it.

[1:20:11] Bob Dobbs: We got ready to go to New York for the new study and we had to wait a whole year all through 92 until the funding came in and the funding came from the nephew of the Shah of Iran.

[1:20:22] Bob Dobbs: It's pretty interesting who was funding this.

[1:20:26] Bob Dobbs: And this is

[1:20:30] Bob Dobbs: 10 years after he's evicted from Iran.

[1:20:36] Bob Dobbs: Let me just check to see what year he died.

[1:20:38] Bob Dobbs: I wonder if he was dead by then.

[1:20:41] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:20:42] Bob Dobbs: so Shah of Iran,

[1:20:43] Bob Dobbs: he died,

[1:20:43] Bob Dobbs: wow,

[1:20:50] Bob Dobbs: he died in 1980.

[1:20:55] Bob Dobbs: What?

[1:20:55] Bob Dobbs: Does that make sense?

[1:20:56] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:20:56] Bob Dobbs: I remember him,

[1:20:57] Bob Dobbs: the Rockefellers,

[1:20:59] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:20:59] Bob Dobbs: brought him into America after the Khomeini took over in 79.

[1:21:06] Bob Dobbs: And I guess he died really quickly.

[1:21:08] Bob Dobbs: So this is 10,

[1:21:11] Bob Dobbs: 11,

[1:21:11] Bob Dobbs: 12 years later.

[1:21:13] Bob Dobbs: He is survived by his sister,

[1:21:15] Bob Dobbs: who is like the dragon lady or something,

[1:21:19] Bob Dobbs: rumored to be a dope dealer.

[1:21:21] Bob Dobbs: And she lives Innis luxurious apartment in New York.

[1:21:25] Bob Dobbs: And her nephew has got money to support this new technology.

[1:21:33] Bob Dobbs: So we met all these people,

[1:21:36] Bob Dobbs: and they got treated by the technology.

[1:21:39] Bob Dobbs: I don't know,

[1:21:40] Bob Dobbs: I don't think they had AIDS,

[1:21:41] Bob Dobbs: but they liked what it did for them.

[1:21:44] Bob Dobbs: So that's not...

[1:21:47] Bob Dobbs: Go ahead.

[1:21:50] Cameron McEwen: When they contacted you out of New York,

[1:21:53] Cameron McEwen: They were doing so on the basis of your work or Carolyn's work or what was the connection?

[1:22:03] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:22:04] Bob Dobbs: it was all medicine.

[1:22:05] Bob Dobbs: The invention was for medicine.

[1:22:07] Bob Dobbs: And

[1:22:08] Bob Dobbs: Jim George,

[1:22:10] Bob Dobbs: who's a prominent Canadian ambassador,

[1:22:13] Bob Dobbs: he grew up in Ontario.

[1:22:16] Bob Dobbs: And he went to Paris in

[1:22:19] Bob Dobbs: 1950. He did Athens.

[1:22:22] Bob Dobbs: Greece,

[1:22:23] Bob Dobbs: he did India,

[1:22:24] Bob Dobbs: a career of being an ambassador all over the place.

[1:22:29] Bob Dobbs: And he's written a book,

[1:22:30] Bob Dobbs: Jim George,

[1:22:32] Bob Dobbs: G-E-O-R-G-E,

[1:22:34] Bob Dobbs: James George.

[1:22:35] Bob Dobbs: I forget the title.

[1:22:36] Bob Dobbs: Maybe I'll come up with it.

[1:22:37] Bob Dobbs: It's out in the garage,

[1:22:38] Bob Dobbs: the book.

[1:22:41] Bob Dobbs: In the late 60s,

[1:22:43] Bob Dobbs: he was the ambassador,

[1:22:44] Bob Dobbs: Canadian ambassador to India,

[1:22:46] Bob Dobbs: and the Dalai

[1:22:47] Bob Dobbs: Lama came to him because it got around that

[1:22:51] Bob Dobbs: Jim George was a mystic.

[1:22:54] Bob Dobbs: He was very interested in Gurdjieff,

[1:22:55] Bob Dobbs: and he gets to Paris to meet Gurdjieff,

[1:22:57] Bob Dobbs: but

[1:22:58] Bob Dobbs: Gurdjieff had died in the middle of 49 or something,

[1:23:02] Bob Dobbs: and he missed him by six months,

[1:23:05] Bob Dobbs: but he meant the heir of his work,

[1:23:07] Bob Dobbs: Madame de Saltzman.

[1:23:09] Bob Dobbs: So he was very involved with Gurdjieff,

[1:23:11] Bob Dobbs: and that leads to a lot of other

[1:23:13] Bob Dobbs: New Age groups and stuff.

[1:23:15] Bob Dobbs: And maybe he's...

[1:23:19] Bob Dobbs: studied Tibetan Buddhism or something,

[1:23:21] Bob Dobbs: but the Dalai Lama found out about him and came to him in India and said,

[1:23:25] Bob Dobbs: I have all my stuff that I took with me when I escaped from Tibet to some place in India,

[1:23:32] Bob Dobbs: but it was a anti-environment and all their sacred documents,

[1:23:36] Bob Dobbs: manuscripts and stuff were melting and just dissolving.

[1:23:40] Bob Dobbs: So he asked Jim Stewart microfiche,

[1:23:44] Bob Dobbs: microfilm everything.

[1:23:46] Bob Dobbs: on the condition that Jim didn't read it while he was doing it.

[1:23:51] Bob Dobbs: The Dalai Lama did not want another human or a white person or a non-Tibetan

[1:23:58] Bob Dobbs: Buddhist or something to engage it.

[1:24:00] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:24:01] Bob Dobbs: Jim did that.

[1:24:03] Bob Dobbs: And this is before the world knew much about the Dalai Lama,

[1:24:06] Bob Dobbs: and so he became a friend,

[1:24:07] Bob Dobbs: an insider to the Dalai Lama world in the late

[1:24:12] Bob Dobbs: 60s. And as the Dalai Lama's image rose in the 80s and

[1:24:15] Bob Dobbs: 90s,

[1:24:16] Bob Dobbs: Jim was always on the inside.

[1:24:18] Bob Dobbs: And he met a lot of other wealthy people who got into the Dalai Lama.

[1:24:23] Bob Dobbs: And then these wealthy people formed a committee,

[1:24:28] Bob Dobbs: and he was the chairman of it or something.

[1:24:32] Bob Dobbs: And they started the Antigonish movement.

[1:24:36] Bob Dobbs: It was a threshold foundation.

[1:24:38] Bob Dobbs: All these rich people who funded Jim and these people.

[1:24:42] Bob Dobbs: Greenpeace was happening in the 70s.

[1:24:44] Bob Dobbs: I don't know how much they interacted with Greenpeace,

[1:24:46] Bob Dobbs: but they made some changes in the whaling industry by the early

[1:24:50] Bob Dobbs: 80s.

[1:24:52] Bob Dobbs: Meanwhile, he was...

[1:24:53] Cameron McEwen: Greenpeace was also started in Canada,

[1:24:55] Cameron McEwen: so there may have been...

[1:24:56] Cameron McEwen: that connection.

[1:24:57] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:24:57] Bob Dobbs: well,

[1:24:57] Bob Dobbs: Greenpeace's early

[1:24:59] Bob Dobbs: 70s, I know his threshold is the late

[1:25:01] Bob Dobbs: 70s. And they weren't,

[1:25:03] Bob Dobbs: as far as I know,

[1:25:03] Bob Dobbs: they weren't out in the boats.

[1:25:04] Bob Dobbs: They did something else.

[1:25:06] Bob Dobbs: Maybe they lobbied governments.

[1:25:07] Bob Dobbs: They had the clout.

[1:25:09] Bob Dobbs: But it's spelled out in his biography.

[1:25:12] Bob Dobbs: But in between that,

[1:25:15] Bob Dobbs: he was in Iran in the

[1:25:17] Bob Dobbs: 70s and became very involved with the Shah of Iran's world.

[1:25:22] Bob Dobbs: And so So the...

[1:25:25] Bob Dobbs: I don't know how Jim met the inventor of this device,

[1:25:29] Bob Dobbs: Walter Fischman,

[1:25:31] Bob Dobbs: but probably Jim brought the nephew into funding the second study.

[1:25:38] Bob Dobbs: The first study was done in 87,

[1:25:41] Bob Dobbs: 88,

[1:25:44] Bob Dobbs: 89,

[1:25:45] Bob Dobbs: 25 people.

[1:25:47] Bob Dobbs: So they started taking the treatment,

[1:25:49] Bob Dobbs: doing well,

[1:25:50] Bob Dobbs: then AZT got promoted.

[1:25:53] Bob Dobbs: by probably Dr.

[1:25:54] Bob Dobbs: Fauci,

[1:25:55] Bob Dobbs: our present guy in the White House.

[1:25:59] Bob Dobbs: Fauci,

[1:26:02] Bob Dobbs: they started promoting AZT,

[1:26:04] Bob Dobbs: and so let's say 12 of them dropped out of the device that Walter was doing and took AZT,

[1:26:13] Bob Dobbs: and they all died.

[1:26:15] Bob Dobbs: And the ones that didn't take AZT and stuck to the program,

[1:26:18] Bob Dobbs: they survived and did well.

[1:26:20] Bob Dobbs: So that was only 25 people.

[1:26:22] Bob Dobbs: So the idea was to do a bigger study and get bigger funding.

[1:26:27] Bob Dobbs: And the doctor that did the first study,

[1:26:30] Bob Dobbs: it was so controversial,

[1:26:31] Bob Dobbs: he didn't want anybody to know that he did it,

[1:26:33] Bob Dobbs: the one who oversaw the application of it.

[1:26:36] Bob Dobbs: He was nervous at the end of it,

[1:26:38] Bob Dobbs: so he didn't want to be part of the second one.

[1:26:40] Bob Dobbs: He wanted to go back and just be a nobody,

[1:26:42] Bob Dobbs: an anonymous doctor.

[1:26:43] Bob Dobbs: So they were looking for a doctor to oversee it,

[1:26:47] Bob Dobbs: and Jim George was a patient of Carolyn's.

[1:26:50] Bob Dobbs: In Toronto.

[1:26:51] Bob Dobbs: And so

[1:26:52] Bob Dobbs: Jim would go back and forth to New York and Toronto.

[1:26:55] Bob Dobbs: So he knew how great Carolyn was as a doctor.

[1:26:58] Bob Dobbs: So he said to Walter,

[1:26:59] Bob Dobbs: I think I have the person we want.

[1:27:01] Bob Dobbs: So he arranged for Walter's wife,

[1:27:04] Bob Dobbs: Nancy,

[1:27:05] Bob Dobbs: to come and meet Carolyn in August 1990.

[1:27:09] Bob Dobbs: And Carolyn was shown the thing.

[1:27:11] Bob Dobbs: And she actually got an injection from it.

[1:27:14] Bob Dobbs: And she almost fainted from it.

[1:27:17] Bob Dobbs: But she said,

[1:27:17] Bob Dobbs: wow,

[1:27:18] Bob Dobbs: I've never had a reaction like that from...

[1:27:21] Bob Dobbs: a healthy modality,

[1:27:22] Bob Dobbs: apparently.

[1:27:22] Bob Dobbs: So she was very intrigued.

[1:27:24] Bob Dobbs: She knew that it affected you,

[1:27:26] Bob Dobbs: or affected one.

[1:27:27] Bob Dobbs: So she accepted it and did it for a year,

[1:27:33] Bob Dobbs: and then waited to go to New York to do the study,

[1:27:35] Bob Dobbs: which started in 93.

[1:27:37] Bob Dobbs: And it involved...

[1:27:40] Cameron McEwen: One thing I,

[1:27:41] Cameron McEwen: and that's,

[1:27:42] Cameron McEwen: and what you're saying there,

[1:27:44] Cameron McEwen: what's the connection between a machine and an injection?

[1:27:51] Cameron McEwen: I didn't finish it.

[1:27:52] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:27:52] Bob Dobbs: I didn't finish the description,

[1:27:54] Bob Dobbs: so I'll describe the machine in a minute.

[1:27:57] Bob Dobbs: But just to finish that trajectory,

[1:27:59] Bob Dobbs: so to speak,

[1:28:02] Bob Dobbs: so we're in 93,

[1:28:05] Bob Dobbs: 94,

[1:28:06] Bob Dobbs: they start a clinic.

[1:28:08] Bob Dobbs: And

[1:28:10] Bob Dobbs: Mario Cuomo,

[1:28:10] Bob Dobbs: the governor of New York,

[1:28:11] Bob Dobbs: changed the law so that people could do alternative therapies a little more.

[1:28:19] Bob Dobbs: Not so much pressured and resistance and arresting and stuff.

[1:28:26] Bob Dobbs: He loosened up alternative modalities.

[1:28:28] Bob Dobbs: It was the perfect time to do MIHR.

[1:28:30] Bob Dobbs: It was not going to be harassed.

[1:28:32] Bob Dobbs: And so that's 93,

[1:28:34] Bob Dobbs: 94,

[1:28:35] Bob Dobbs: 95.

[1:28:35] Bob Dobbs: And by 95,

[1:28:37] Bob Dobbs: I'm witnessing this incredible development.

[1:28:40] Bob Dobbs: We actually have a treatment for AIDS.

[1:28:42] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:28:42] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:28:43] Bob Dobbs: you want the world to find out about this.

[1:28:46] Bob Dobbs: And that,

[1:28:47] Bob Dobbs: this...

[1:28:48] Bob Dobbs: The miracle of it showed me there was a new kind of something,

[1:28:52] Bob Dobbs: because this was not explainable by normal science,

[1:28:56] Bob Dobbs: and that inspired me to make the chart.

[1:28:59] Bob Dobbs: I had experienced something new,

[1:29:01] Bob Dobbs: the positive part of the flat line.

[1:29:04] Bob Dobbs: And so that's why I'm giving you the background.

[1:29:06] Bob Dobbs: It's important.

[1:29:07] Bob Dobbs: This thing caused the chart.

[1:29:09] Cameron McEwen: So you were being treated or interacting with this machine?

[1:29:16] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[1:29:16] Bob Dobbs: and I would hear all about it.

[1:29:17] Bob Dobbs: I'd go to the lab,

[1:29:19] Bob Dobbs: which was on

[1:29:21] Bob Dobbs: E65th Street.

[1:29:22] Bob Dobbs: I think it was 325.

[1:29:23] Bob Dobbs: If you want to look at the building,

[1:29:25] Bob Dobbs: anybody listening,

[1:29:25] Bob Dobbs: 325 E65th Street.

[1:29:28] Bob Dobbs: And it impressed people.

[1:29:29] Cameron McEwen: It's a high rent.

[1:29:30] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:29:31] Bob Dobbs: it impressed people that Carolyn had this incredible address.

[1:29:35] Bob Dobbs: Like when we joined the Finnegans Wake Group in New York in late 93,

[1:29:39] Bob Dobbs: 94,

[1:29:40] Bob Dobbs: and eventually we didn't run around and say,

[1:29:41] Bob Dobbs: hey,

[1:29:41] Bob Dobbs: we live at 325 E65th.

[1:29:43] Bob Dobbs: And eventually they...

[1:29:44] Bob Dobbs: They got to know us and they'd come visit Carolyn at the lab and find out about it.

[1:29:49] Bob Dobbs: And all these longtime New Yorkers said,

[1:29:51] Bob Dobbs: wow,

[1:29:52] Bob Dobbs: you're at the heart of the best place in New York or the most prestigious area,

[1:29:57] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:29:57] Bob Dobbs: in the 60s on the east side.

[1:30:07] Bob Dobbs: So there's charisma in the building.

[1:30:09] Bob Dobbs: And Walter,

[1:30:11] Bob Dobbs: he got it.

[1:30:12] Bob Dobbs: He was a writer for Reader's Digest and Dilettante.

[1:30:16] Bob Dobbs: And he went to Asia and learned acupuncture and homeopathy,

[1:30:19] Bob Dobbs: all these different things.

[1:30:21] Bob Dobbs: He wasn't a doctor.

[1:30:22] Bob Dobbs: He was an inventor.

[1:30:24] Bob Dobbs: He made gadgets and did,

[1:30:26] Bob Dobbs: did

[1:30:27] Bob Dobbs: I say Reader's Digest?

[1:30:29] Bob Dobbs: I meant popular mechanics.

[1:30:31] Bob Dobbs: He wrote for Popular Mechanics.

[1:30:33] Cameron McEwen: That's a little better.

[1:30:35] Bob Dobbs: Beg your pardon?

[1:30:36] Cameron McEwen: That's a little better.

[1:30:37] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[1:30:39] Bob Dobbs: So he invented this thing in the middle

[1:30:42] Bob Dobbs: 80s.

[1:30:43] Bob Dobbs: He made it.

[1:30:45] Bob Dobbs: And then he,

[1:30:46] Bob Dobbs: probably because he was a charismatic guy and he'd get people to believe in him,

[1:30:50] Bob Dobbs: so he got that apartment,

[1:30:53] Bob Dobbs: that basement layout,

[1:30:56] Bob Dobbs: for pretty well nothing.

[1:30:58] Bob Dobbs: That's bad.

[1:30:59] Bob Dobbs: He read hardly.

[1:31:00] Bob Dobbs: So he was lucky that way.

[1:31:02] Bob Dobbs: Otherwise,

[1:31:02] Bob Dobbs: he couldn't have afforded it because he didn't have any regular well-paying job going.

[1:31:07] Bob Dobbs: He was too much of a dilettante and doing his own thing and scraping by.

[1:31:12] Bob Dobbs: His wife was a ballet teacher,

[1:31:13] Bob Dobbs: but I think by the 80s,

[1:31:16] Bob Dobbs: she wasn't doing that anymore.

[1:31:18] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:31:20] Bob Dobbs: Waller was a very interesting person,

[1:31:25] Bob Dobbs: but I never got to meet him.

[1:31:26] Bob Dobbs: What happened was...

[1:31:29] Bob Dobbs: When we went to New York in February 1993,

[1:31:34] Bob Dobbs: Walter wanted Carolyn to go out to his branch office in L.A.

[1:31:37] Bob Dobbs: first.

[1:31:39] Bob Dobbs: So we went to

[1:31:41] Bob Dobbs: L.A. in February 1993,

[1:31:43] Bob Dobbs: not New York.

[1:31:44] Bob Dobbs: But if I'm not going to get into details,

[1:31:46] Bob Dobbs: I just say we go to New York in February 1993.

[1:31:48] Bob Dobbs: We're working for New York,

[1:31:50] Bob Dobbs: but we're in L.A.

[1:31:51] Bob Dobbs: And so Carolyn goes back to New York while I'm staying at Jerry Fialka,

[1:31:57] Bob Dobbs: who hits home and...

[1:31:59] Bob Dobbs: small cottage home in

[1:32:01] Bob Dobbs: Venice, a great place.

[1:32:03] Bob Dobbs: He was working for Frank Zappa,

[1:32:05] Bob Dobbs: who I was a great fan of.

[1:32:07] Bob Dobbs: And so we stayed there,

[1:32:11] Bob Dobbs: but by April,

[1:32:12] Bob Dobbs: Carolyn went back because the National Institutes of Health had heard of this technology.

[1:32:22] Bob Dobbs: And,

[1:32:23] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[1:32:24] Bob Dobbs: this is

[1:32:27] Bob Dobbs: April of 95.

[1:32:29] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:32:29] Bob Dobbs: no,

[1:32:29] Bob Dobbs: no,

[1:32:29] Bob Dobbs: no.

[1:32:30] Bob Dobbs: April 93.

[1:32:31] Bob Dobbs: But,

[1:32:31] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:32:31] Bob Dobbs: the second study has been going along.

[1:32:34] Bob Dobbs: And so in the first week,

[1:32:40] Bob Dobbs: April 93,

[1:32:41] Bob Dobbs: in People magazine,

[1:32:42] Bob Dobbs: they had an article on the new director of the National Institutes of Health.

[1:32:47] Bob Dobbs: I think that's what it's called.

[1:32:49] Bob Dobbs: And he was an American Indian or American,

[1:32:52] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:32:53] Bob Dobbs: a native.

[1:32:54] Bob Dobbs: So he's an interesting character.

[1:32:56] Bob Dobbs: And there's an interview with him.

[1:32:58] Bob Dobbs: And that week,

[1:33:00] Bob Dobbs: Walter and Carolyn went to him and the scene there and presented the MIHR technology to the board there to get grants and get support.

[1:33:10] Bob Dobbs: And so they presented their case,

[1:33:12] Bob Dobbs: and the people at the National Institute of Health said,

[1:33:15] Bob Dobbs: well,

[1:33:16] Bob Dobbs: this is great,

[1:33:16] Bob Dobbs: we're going to do it.

[1:33:17] Bob Dobbs: And then a voice spoke up in the back,

[1:33:20] Bob Dobbs: said,

[1:33:20] Bob Dobbs: no,

[1:33:20] Bob Dobbs: you're not going to do it.

[1:33:21] Bob Dobbs: And it was a representative of the FDA.

[1:33:24] Bob Dobbs: And they were pretty police-like.

[1:33:28] Bob Dobbs: Just a minute.

[1:33:28] Bob Dobbs: Hello.

[1:33:30] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:33:30] Bob Dobbs: still going.

[1:33:31] Bob Dobbs: Just checking the recording.

[1:33:34] Cameron McEwen: Okay,

[1:33:34] Cameron McEwen: good.

[1:33:35] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:33:36] Cameron McEwen: But what was the word you used when you said the something technology?

[1:33:43] Cameron McEwen: When you were just,

[1:33:44] Cameron McEwen: you were describing the machine or describing the therapy or something and you called it the something technology,

[1:33:50] Cameron McEwen: but I didn't pick up.

[1:33:51] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:33:52] Bob Dobbs: it was not important.

[1:33:54] Bob Dobbs: I haven't described it yet.

[1:33:56] Cameron McEwen: Okay.

[1:33:57] Bob Dobbs: But the point is,

[1:33:58] Bob Dobbs: is that the FDA's representative was at the meeting and they objected to supporting this crazy technology.

[1:34:06] Cameron McEwen: Sure.

[1:34:06] Bob Dobbs: And they stopped it.

[1:34:08] Bob Dobbs: So it showed the power of the...

[1:34:12] Cameron McEwen: They probably weren't...

[1:34:15] Cameron McEwen: They probably didn't care about the technology or,

[1:34:20] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[1:34:22] Cameron McEwen: anything that was actually going on.

[1:34:24] Cameron McEwen: What they cared about was the turf battle.

[1:34:27] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[1:34:28] Bob Dobbs: Yep,

[1:34:29] Bob Dobbs: exactly.

[1:34:31] Cameron McEwen: Between the NIH and the FDA,

[1:34:33] Cameron McEwen: there's always a contest between who has authority over whatever is going on.

[1:34:40] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[1:34:42] Bob Dobbs: And so they didn't get their grants or whatever,

[1:34:48] Bob Dobbs: but they still were doing their second study.

[1:34:50] Bob Dobbs: So they go back to New York,

[1:34:52] Bob Dobbs: and Carolyn stays there a couple of weeks and then comes and...

[1:34:56] Bob Dobbs: stays at Jerry's through,

[1:34:59] Bob Dobbs: say,

[1:34:59] Bob Dobbs: the middle of April into May and June,

[1:35:02] Bob Dobbs: and then...

[1:35:07] Bob Dobbs: uh Carolyn gets a call out of the blue and uh hillary is visiting hillary clinton you know she's first lady she's visiting hawaii i think it was and walter and the and the woman who was guiding hillary around the islands whatever island was uh was um a former worker for for uh the lab and

[1:35:31] Bob Dobbs: she says i have a great opportunity to tell hillary about this technology

[1:35:35] Bob Dobbs: And,

[1:35:35] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:35:35] Bob Dobbs: this is in that period when,

[1:35:37] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:35:37] Bob Dobbs: nobody knows what to do about AIDS.

[1:35:39] Bob Dobbs: It's very bad.

[1:35:41] Bob Dobbs: They don't have a solution.

[1:35:45] Bob Dobbs: So the lady,

[1:35:47] Bob Dobbs: Walter,

[1:35:48] Bob Dobbs: gave,

[1:35:49] Bob Dobbs: we'll just call her Karen,

[1:35:51] Bob Dobbs: Carolyn's phone number and called and said,

[1:35:55] Bob Dobbs: I'm going to be with Hillary in a couple hours.

[1:35:57] Bob Dobbs: How can I explain the technology?

[1:35:59] Bob Dobbs: So Carolyn dictated a statement for her to make,

[1:36:03] Bob Dobbs: because she didn't really...

[1:36:04] Bob Dobbs: Didn't have the clues about it to say it.

[1:36:08] Bob Dobbs: So Carolyn rehearsed the woman for Hillary.

[1:36:11] Bob Dobbs: And then when Hillary showed up,

[1:36:13] Bob Dobbs: the lady,

[1:36:14] Bob Dobbs: former nurse or whatever,

[1:36:15] Bob Dobbs: demonstrated it and talked it up the way Carolyn said.

[1:36:18] Bob Dobbs: So that was interesting.

[1:36:20] Bob Dobbs: Nothing came of it,

[1:36:21] Bob Dobbs: but it was a dramatic intervention sort of potential there.

[1:36:26] Bob Dobbs: And then,

[1:36:27] Bob Dobbs: let's see,

[1:36:28] Bob Dobbs: in June,

[1:36:30] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[1:36:30] Bob Dobbs: so she's there in April.

[1:36:31] Bob Dobbs: She goes back in June.

[1:36:33] Bob Dobbs: And I think this Hillary thing happened in July.

[1:36:36] Bob Dobbs: But in June,

[1:36:37] Bob Dobbs: Walter taught Carolyn how to make the secret herbal formulas.

[1:36:42] Bob Dobbs: And that was really lucky,

[1:36:44] Bob Dobbs: because Walter was going to be dead two months later.

[1:36:47] Bob Dobbs: So anyways,

[1:36:48] Bob Dobbs: Carolyn stays in New York for a month in June,

[1:36:51] Bob Dobbs: and then comes back to L.A.

[1:36:53] Bob Dobbs: through July,

[1:36:53] Bob Dobbs: and then they have this Hillary incident.

[1:36:57] Bob Dobbs: And then she has to,

[1:36:59] Bob Dobbs: what?

[1:37:02] Bob Dobbs: She goes back to

[1:37:06] Bob Dobbs: New York in the first of August,

[1:37:09] Bob Dobbs: and then on August 12th,

[1:37:12] Bob Dobbs: I'm getting ready to go to New York,

[1:37:15] Bob Dobbs: finishing up with Jerry,

[1:37:17] Bob Dobbs: because he had a friend coming to stay,

[1:37:19] Bob Dobbs: a girlfriend from Paris.

[1:37:21] Bob Dobbs: And so it was just a new relationship,

[1:37:23] Bob Dobbs: so I was going to have to leave.

[1:37:25] Bob Dobbs: So that was okay.

[1:37:28] Bob Dobbs: A couple of days before I was going to leave on August 12th,

[1:37:31] Bob Dobbs: I get a call from Carolyn and

[1:37:33] Bob Dobbs: Walter had just dropped in.

[1:37:35] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:37:35] Bob Dobbs: it might have been under the disappointment or the frustration of getting so close to having it recognized and then it didn't happen.

[1:37:44] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:37:45] Bob Dobbs: I flew back to Toronto to check out the people staying in our home there and then

[1:37:52] Bob Dobbs: I went down to New York and got there a week later and then we started living in New York.

[1:37:59] Bob Dobbs: And we stayed there.

[1:38:00] Bob Dobbs: So for me,

[1:38:01] Bob Dobbs: I show up,

[1:38:01] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:38:01] Bob Dobbs: like August 22nd in 93,

[1:38:05] Bob Dobbs: and we're there for 15 years till

[1:38:08] Bob Dobbs: June 2008.

[1:38:11] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:38:11] Bob Dobbs: so that's the background of the inspiration for the chart,

[1:38:16] Bob Dobbs: which if the chart is important,

[1:38:20] Bob Dobbs: you got to know where it came from.

[1:38:22] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:38:22] Bob Dobbs: so how I organized it was this device.

[1:38:27] Bob Dobbs: And I only got half of it talked about when it disconnected on my recording.

[1:38:34] Bob Dobbs: So you take a herb and you potentize it,

[1:38:38] Bob Dobbs: which means you make it a liquid,

[1:38:44] Bob Dobbs: what is called homeopathy.

[1:38:45] Bob Dobbs: Do you know what that is?

[1:38:47] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:38:48] Bob Dobbs: You're diluting it so that there's a very tiny memory of the herb in the liquid part.

[1:38:57] Bob Dobbs: So that's the tetrad herb.

[1:39:00] Bob Dobbs: Then you take that liquid and you put it in a syringe needle.

[1:39:04] Bob Dobbs: Then you lay the syringe needle in a little plastic flat device that you could put a needle in,

[1:39:14] Bob Dobbs: but it has a bit of an electrical thing inside it,

[1:39:17] Bob Dobbs: some circuitry.

[1:39:18] Bob Dobbs: So when you inject the needle in an acupuncture point,

[1:39:23] Bob Dobbs: so you've got herbs,

[1:39:24] Bob Dobbs: homeopathy,

[1:39:24] Bob Dobbs: and acupuncture here.

[1:39:26] Bob Dobbs: You inject the needle into the acupuncture point,

[1:39:28] Bob Dobbs: and as the solution goes into the acupuncture point,

[1:39:32] Bob Dobbs: you zap it electrically.

[1:39:35] Bob Dobbs: And that's what the little,

[1:39:40] Bob Dobbs: it's like a little cell phone,

[1:39:41] Bob Dobbs: a little flat thing,

[1:39:42] Bob Dobbs: you know what I mean?

[1:39:43] Bob Dobbs: A little smartphone,

[1:39:44] Bob Dobbs: a modern phone today.

[1:39:46] Bob Dobbs: And it had the hole,

[1:39:50] Bob Dobbs: the pathway to lay the needle in.

[1:39:52] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:39:53] Bob Dobbs: so you're spinning electrical effects.

[1:39:55] Bob Dobbs: on a combination of acupuncture,

[1:39:57] Bob Dobbs: herbs,

[1:39:57] Bob Dobbs: and homeopathy.

[1:39:58] Bob Dobbs: Quite a brilliant thing.

[1:40:00] Bob Dobbs: And it worked.

[1:40:01] Bob Dobbs: on all kinds of problems and especially AIDS.

[1:40:05] Bob Dobbs: So that was a technology.

[1:40:07] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:40:08] Bob Dobbs: I'm there two years later and

[1:40:14] Bob Dobbs: I'm thinking about this technology and how we're going to introduce it to the world.

[1:40:19] Bob Dobbs: And

[1:40:22] Bob Dobbs: I don't know how I say,

[1:40:24] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[1:40:24] Bob Dobbs: there's Marshall McLuhan.

[1:40:26] Bob Dobbs: You talk about me doing a lot of work.

[1:40:27] Bob Dobbs: I did a lot of work and a lot of people.

[1:40:29] Bob Dobbs: and distilled it down to four people,

[1:40:32] Bob Dobbs: maybe six,

[1:40:34] Bob Dobbs: of studying intently these people,

[1:40:36] Bob Dobbs: not just McLuhan.

[1:40:38] Bob Dobbs: So you've got

[1:40:39] Bob Dobbs: Lyndon LaRouche,

[1:40:40] Bob Dobbs: Mae Brussel,

[1:40:42] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan,

[1:40:42] Bob Dobbs: Zappa,

[1:40:45] Bob Dobbs: J.

[1:40:45] Bob Dobbs: Krishnamurti,

[1:40:46] Bob Dobbs: William Aaron Thompson,

[1:40:48] Bob Dobbs: Dr.

[1:40:49] Bob Dobbs: Beder,

[1:40:51] Bob Dobbs: and my mentor back in Halifax,

[1:40:56] Bob Dobbs: Dartmouth,

[1:40:56] Bob Dobbs: Nova Scotia,

[1:40:57] Bob Dobbs: Garrett Dean.

[1:40:59] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:41:01] Bob Dobbs: I was thinking these four levels,

[1:41:04] Bob Dobbs: but I added Kroker to it.

[1:41:07] Bob Dobbs: So the four levels were

[1:41:09] Bob Dobbs: LaRouche,

[1:41:11] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan,

[1:41:14] Bob Dobbs: Thompson, Kroker,

[1:41:15] Bob Dobbs: and myself.

[1:41:17] Bob Dobbs: And

[1:41:18] Bob Dobbs: I said,

[1:41:18] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[1:41:19] Bob Dobbs: each one of these guys helped to conceptualize the unfolding of MIHR.

[1:41:24] Bob Dobbs: And MIHR was the name for the technology.

[1:41:26] Bob Dobbs: It stood for...

[1:41:27] Bob Dobbs: molecularly influenced herbal remedies or magnetic magnetically influenced uh holeopathic remedies they they altered it you know what i mean and i can't remember what's m m i h r yeah yeah

[1:41:43] Cameron McEwen: capital m capital i k capital h capital r and um and was it intended was it intended as um uh to suggest mirror i Bye.

[1:41:57] Bob Dobbs: don't know if he,

[1:41:59] Bob Dobbs: no,

[1:41:59] Bob Dobbs: it was the space station,

[1:42:02] Bob Dobbs: MIR,

[1:42:03] Bob Dobbs: the Russian space station.

[1:42:05] Bob Dobbs: He was reflecting that.

[1:42:07] Bob Dobbs: Now there's the satellite,

[1:42:09] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:42:09] Bob Dobbs: laser beam level.

[1:42:11] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:42:13] Bob Dobbs: he was thinking of a space thing as some important futuristic or a symbol of something.

[1:42:20] Bob Dobbs: And

[1:42:21] Bob Dobbs: I'm sure that's why I make the the bottom level.

[1:42:26] Bob Dobbs: have the satellite in there.

[1:42:27] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:42:28] Bob Dobbs: Mir is embedded in there secretly,

[1:42:30] Bob Dobbs: so to speak,

[1:42:31] Bob Dobbs: even though satellites have to be there because they're the next technology.

[1:42:34] Bob Dobbs: But yes,

[1:42:35] Bob Dobbs: Mir,

[1:42:36] Bob Dobbs: I was punning on it.

[1:42:37] Bob Dobbs: In my mind,

[1:42:38] Bob Dobbs: my organizing of the data,

[1:42:42] Bob Dobbs: I have my own idiosyncratic imagery,

[1:42:47] Bob Dobbs: so to speak.

[1:42:50] Cameron McEwen: In Russian,

[1:42:51] Cameron McEwen: Mir means world,

[1:42:53] Cameron McEwen: I believe.

[1:42:54] Bob Dobbs: M-I-R?

[1:42:56] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:42:56] Bob Dobbs: Wow.

[1:42:58] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:42:59] Bob Dobbs: I might have known that back then.

[1:43:03] Bob Dobbs: But yeah,

[1:43:03] Bob Dobbs: I said molecularly influenced.

[1:43:05] Bob Dobbs: I think it's magnetically influenced herbal or holeopathic remedies.

[1:43:11] Bob Dobbs: So meanwhile,

[1:43:12] Bob Dobbs: Walter's getting it patented,

[1:43:14] Bob Dobbs: and he managed in that period to get it patented.

[1:43:17] Bob Dobbs: And

[1:43:19] Bob Dobbs: Malcolm Forbes,

[1:43:21] Bob Dobbs: the father of Stephen Forbes,

[1:43:23] Bob Dobbs: the original guy.

[1:43:24] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?

[1:43:25] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[1:43:25] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:43:25] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[1:43:26] Bob Dobbs: He was gay,

[1:43:27] Bob Dobbs: and he had a gay lover,

[1:43:29] Bob Dobbs: and he brought the gay lover to

[1:43:33] Bob Dobbs: Walter, and Walter fixed him,

[1:43:35] Bob Dobbs: got rid of the AIDS for all intents and purposes.

[1:43:38] Bob Dobbs: So Malcolm Forbes,

[1:43:39] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:43:40] Bob Dobbs: he's getting old,

[1:43:41] Bob Dobbs: and he wants to make a big splash,

[1:43:43] Bob Dobbs: so he gets his friend Liz Taylor involved,

[1:43:46] Bob Dobbs: and they are going to promote the second study once it's completed.

[1:43:52] Bob Dobbs: So Walter is really,

[1:43:53] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:43:53] Bob Dobbs: doing well at this point.

[1:43:54] Bob Dobbs: point.

[1:43:55] Bob Dobbs: This is 1991,

[1:43:58] Bob Dobbs: 92.

[1:43:59] Bob Dobbs: Everything's looking good.

[1:44:00] Bob Dobbs: And then,

[1:44:02] Bob Dobbs: but he wanted to get a famous patient.

[1:44:04] Bob Dobbs: So they made overtures to Magic Johnson,

[1:44:08] Bob Dobbs: who's on my chart.

[1:44:10] Bob Dobbs: And Johnson,

[1:44:11] Bob Dobbs: it never got clarified whether he had it done or not.

[1:44:16] Bob Dobbs: He wanted to keep all his AIDS reality secret or something,

[1:44:20] Bob Dobbs: but he survived and did well.

[1:44:22] Bob Dobbs: And And...

[1:44:23] Bob Dobbs: We didn't know that would have happened before

[1:44:28] Bob Dobbs: Walter died,

[1:44:29] Bob Dobbs: and Walter never told Carolyn what happened with him,

[1:44:32] Bob Dobbs: and that might have been the deal not to tell anybody what Magic Johnson was doing because it was very scandalous.

[1:44:40] Bob Dobbs: He got in trouble anyways for doing other remedies for his AIDS,

[1:44:45] Bob Dobbs: which might have been a metaphor for a red herring for MIHR.

[1:44:49] Bob Dobbs: He said,

[1:44:50] Bob Dobbs: yes,

[1:44:50] Bob Dobbs: I had alternative things,

[1:44:51] Bob Dobbs: and they worked.

[1:44:52] Bob Dobbs: But he never named MIHR.

[1:44:54] Bob Dobbs: He named something else.

[1:44:55] Bob Dobbs: So it was all complicated.

[1:44:56] Bob Dobbs: So getting him to promote the thing didn't really work,

[1:45:00] Bob Dobbs: but he did get helped.

[1:45:03] Bob Dobbs: So that's

[1:45:06] Bob Dobbs: 90s.

[1:45:07] Bob Dobbs: So Walter dies August

[1:45:08] Bob Dobbs: 12th. I show up a week or so later,

[1:45:11] Bob Dobbs: and then the law gets changed.

[1:45:14] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:45:14] Bob Dobbs: Walter's wife and Carolyn open a clinic while doing a study on people.

[1:45:22] Bob Dobbs: So that went well for three years until 97.

[1:45:27] Bob Dobbs: But then the American Medical Association got wind of all this,

[1:45:31] Bob Dobbs: And they...

[1:45:33] Bob Dobbs: In New York,

[1:45:34] Bob Dobbs: they're like a mafia kind of thing.

[1:45:37] Bob Dobbs: They'll sabotage you.

[1:45:39] Bob Dobbs: They sabotaged or overrode

[1:45:47] Bob Dobbs: Mario Cuomo's law,

[1:45:49] Bob Dobbs: and they prevented Carolyn from sending the MIHR needles across the country.

[1:45:56] Bob Dobbs: They couldn't get it out of the state.

[1:45:58] Bob Dobbs: So it was quarantined in New York.

[1:46:01] Bob Dobbs: So that made it.

[1:46:02] Bob Dobbs: pretty limited.

[1:46:04] Bob Dobbs: And so the operation diminished.

[1:46:11] Bob Dobbs: There wasn't much business happening.

[1:46:14] Bob Dobbs: There were people in New York doing it,

[1:46:16] Bob Dobbs: and the study was going forward,

[1:46:18] Bob Dobbs: but they had a lot bigger ambitions.

[1:46:21] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:46:22] Bob Dobbs: Carolyn decided to put her time into something else.

[1:46:26] Bob Dobbs: So she decided to,

[1:46:29] Bob Dobbs: she was taking classes on Chinese herbs.

[1:46:31] Bob Dobbs: So you

[1:46:35] Bob Dobbs: The kid who taught the Chinese herbs,

[1:46:38] Bob Dobbs: we would call it a cult,

[1:46:39] Bob Dobbs: but it was part of Chinese culture.

[1:46:41] Bob Dobbs: He had a special way of doing herbs.

[1:46:43] Bob Dobbs: And it was passed on through the generations like the Dalai Lama is.

[1:46:49] Bob Dobbs: And so this kid was part of this lineage.

[1:46:51] Bob Dobbs: He went back centuries.

[1:46:52] Bob Dobbs: And so Carolyn studied his stuff and then went to Random House and said,

[1:46:57] Bob Dobbs: Hey,

[1:46:57] Bob Dobbs: let's do a book on this unique Chinese medicine.

[1:47:01] Bob Dobbs: And they said,

[1:47:01] Bob Dobbs: we just did a book.

[1:47:03] Bob Dobbs: But we have a book here,

[1:47:04] Bob Dobbs: a proposal on magnesium.

[1:47:07] Bob Dobbs: What do you think of this?

[1:47:08] Bob Dobbs: And so Carolyn didn't know anything about magnesium.

[1:47:10] Bob Dobbs: So she looked into it,

[1:47:11] Bob Dobbs: met the scientists who had done 25 years of studies with all kinds of great results and no interest in the scientific world.

[1:47:19] Bob Dobbs: So Carolyn took on the book,

[1:47:22] Bob Dobbs: and the book came out in 1999,

[1:47:25] Bob Dobbs: and she got on The View.

[1:47:28] Bob Dobbs: You know that show?

[1:47:30] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[1:47:31] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:47:31] Bob Dobbs: so...

[1:47:31] Cameron McEwen: I've never seen it,

[1:47:32] Cameron McEwen: but it's like four or five women,

[1:47:35] Cameron McEwen: isn't it?

[1:47:36] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:47:37] Bob Dobbs: The main woman at that time was Barbara Walters,

[1:47:39] Bob Dobbs: who was famous.

[1:47:41] Bob Dobbs: So she was on the show a lot for three years to 2002.

[1:47:46] Bob Dobbs: Then the government passed a law that drug companies can advertise on TV directly to people,

[1:47:54] Bob Dobbs: no policing of it or something.

[1:47:56] Bob Dobbs: So that caused a bonanza for drugs.

[1:48:00] Bob Dobbs: drug therapies,

[1:48:01] Bob Dobbs: and they told the view that they can't have Carolyn on because she gets on and talks about these alternatives to drugs,

[1:48:11] Bob Dobbs: and then they go to a drug commercial.

[1:48:15] Bob Dobbs: So it conflicted from what the drug companies wanted,

[1:48:18] Bob Dobbs: so they asked

[1:48:21] Bob Dobbs: Barbara and them not to have her on anymore,

[1:48:22] Bob Dobbs: and they followed that because I guess they needed the money from the drug company.

[1:48:26] Bob Dobbs: So that ended Carolyn's TV career.

[1:48:29] Bob Dobbs: And...

[1:48:31] Bob Dobbs: And the mirror faded off.

[1:48:34] Bob Dobbs: No opportunity to do it anymore.

[1:48:36] Bob Dobbs: So that led to a bunch of interesting things she looked into.

[1:48:43] Bob Dobbs: I won't go into it.

[1:48:44] Bob Dobbs: And it eventually led to our breakthrough stuff.

[1:48:49] Bob Dobbs: And why it's a breakthrough is it's PICO-sized.

[1:48:53] Bob Dobbs: She found a guy that could take the mineral magnesium and make it so tiny that it gets in the cells.

[1:49:00] Bob Dobbs: And if you get magnesium in the cells,

[1:49:02] Bob Dobbs: you don't get diarrhea.

[1:49:04] Bob Dobbs: And it has tremendous effects.

[1:49:06] Bob Dobbs: And no one had ever put magnesium on the cellular level into the cell.

[1:49:13] Bob Dobbs: It made tremendous effects.

[1:49:14] Bob Dobbs: So that became a big success story.

[1:49:17] Bob Dobbs: So it's led to our products are as good as mere.

[1:49:23] Bob Dobbs: And that was partly helped by

[1:49:26] Bob Dobbs: ION, which showed up to me in March.

[1:49:29] Bob Dobbs: 18,

[1:49:29] Bob Dobbs: 2009.

[1:49:31] Bob Dobbs: I evoked this man,

[1:49:34] Bob Dobbs: have a voice come through him.

[1:49:35] Bob Dobbs: So that's another story.

[1:49:37] Bob Dobbs: And that's

[1:49:40] Bob Dobbs: 16 years later after arriving in New York.

[1:49:45] Bob Dobbs: And nine months after we came to Hawaii in June 2008.

[1:49:49] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:49:50] Bob Dobbs: so that's what my opening thoughts are.

[1:49:54] Bob Dobbs: So now we've got to look at what I developed from that on the chart.

[1:49:59] Cameron McEwen: And so we...

[1:50:01] Cameron McEwen: Did you get injected or inoculated,

[1:50:05] Cameron McEwen: whatever the term is?

[1:50:07] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[1:50:07] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[1:50:08] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:50:09] Bob Dobbs: I took the shots regularly.

[1:50:11] Bob Dobbs: I didn't have any problems.

[1:50:13] Bob Dobbs: But it would give you extra energy or something.

[1:50:15] Bob Dobbs: It had a good effect.

[1:50:18] Bob Dobbs: But I didn't have AIDS or anything.

[1:50:20] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[1:50:21] Bob Dobbs: I wasn't.

[1:50:24] Cameron McEwen: I don't think you were deficient in energy.

[1:50:28] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:50:28] Bob Dobbs: I wasn't.

[1:50:29] Bob Dobbs: I was healthy.

[1:50:30] Bob Dobbs: and it made me healthier.

[1:50:33] Cameron McEwen: Okay,

[1:50:34] Cameron McEwen: good.

[1:50:34] Cameron McEwen: But it seems like it had at least what you considered to be a psychological effect,

[1:50:43] Cameron McEwen: or not psychological,

[1:50:46] Cameron McEwen: cognitive.

[1:50:48] Bob Dobbs: It had all kinds of great effects.

[1:50:49] Bob Dobbs: It was holistic.

[1:50:51] Bob Dobbs: It affected everything in oneself.

[1:50:54] Bob Dobbs: And

[1:50:55] Bob Dobbs: I'd always been a guinea pig for Carolyn.

[1:50:58] Bob Dobbs: since the late 60s,

[1:50:59] Bob Dobbs: early

[1:51:00] Bob Dobbs: 70s.

[1:51:01] Bob Dobbs: She was looking alternative therapies before she got into medicine.

[1:51:07] Bob Dobbs: But I always was,

[1:51:10] Bob Dobbs: she'd try stuff out on me.

[1:51:12] Bob Dobbs: And when she was in med school in 75,

[1:51:15] Bob Dobbs: 74 to 78,

[1:51:16] Bob Dobbs: in Halifax at Dalhousie

[1:51:19] Bob Dobbs: University, she found a guy who taught acupuncture,

[1:51:23] Bob Dobbs: which was pretty rare.

[1:51:25] Bob Dobbs: Nixon had just...

[1:51:26] Bob Dobbs: brought it over in 71,

[1:51:27] Bob Dobbs: 72 when he went to China.

[1:51:30] Bob Dobbs: And that was new stuff for Americans.

[1:51:34] Bob Dobbs: So Carolyn did acupuncture on me back in 75 in Nova Scotia.

[1:51:40] Bob Dobbs: And so that was neat.

[1:51:41] Bob Dobbs: And

[1:51:42] Bob Dobbs: I got guinea pigged all kinds of therapies,

[1:51:44] Bob Dobbs: alternative therapies.

[1:51:45] Bob Dobbs: So it was natural for me to do MIHR.

[1:51:48] Bob Dobbs: And

[1:51:49] Bob Dobbs: I am the remarkable person I am today due to that.

[1:51:53] Bob Dobbs: Thanks to the MIHR.

[1:51:57] Bob Dobbs: Are you there?

[1:51:59] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:51:59] Cameron McEwen: I'm here.

[1:52:01] Bob Dobbs: You're supposed to laugh there.

[1:52:02] Bob Dobbs: You're supposed to laugh when I said remarkable person.

[1:52:11] Cameron McEwen: What I understood from the story before is that

[1:52:14] Cameron McEwen: MIHR was,

[1:52:18] Cameron McEwen: in your consideration,

[1:52:19] Cameron McEwen: it was very successful.

[1:52:22] Cameron McEwen: But because of external...

[1:52:26] Cameron McEwen: factors,

[1:52:28] Cameron McEwen: it sort of never took off.

[1:52:29] Cameron McEwen: And then it didn't play much of a role with you personally anymore after that either.

[1:52:41] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:52:49] Bob Dobbs: Carolyn,

[1:52:49] Bob Dobbs: when she was getting on The View and getting her book out,

[1:52:54] Bob Dobbs: The Miracle of Magnesium,

[1:52:56] Bob Dobbs: It was always with the agenda,

[1:52:58] Bob Dobbs: well,

[1:52:58] Bob Dobbs: I'll get some attention this way,

[1:52:59] Bob Dobbs: then I'll be able to talk about MIHR.

[1:53:02] Bob Dobbs: But it never got to that level,

[1:53:03] Bob Dobbs: because she got kicked off TV,

[1:53:06] Bob Dobbs: and the wife was getting a little depressed about it all,

[1:53:10] Bob Dobbs: that it didn't take off as soon as she wanted it to do.

[1:53:13] Bob Dobbs: So the energy for it just dissipated.

[1:53:17] Bob Dobbs: And then 9-1-1 happened,

[1:53:20] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[1:53:20] Bob Dobbs: 2001.

[1:53:22] Bob Dobbs: That sucker-punched New Yorkers.

[1:53:24] Bob Dobbs: What I noticed in New York...

[1:53:26] Bob Dobbs: A malaise took over the city,

[1:53:28] Bob Dobbs: and it never recovered.

[1:53:32] Bob Dobbs: I knew a lot of people who knew people who had died in the towers.

[1:53:36] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:53:37] Bob Dobbs: New York became a depressed place.

[1:53:39] Bob Dobbs: And by 2007,

[1:53:40] Bob Dobbs: we were thinking of moving somewhere.

[1:53:43] Bob Dobbs: And

[1:53:44] Bob Dobbs: Hawaii was not in our mind.

[1:53:46] Bob Dobbs: But I won't go into how we ended up there,

[1:53:48] Bob Dobbs: but it was a great move.

[1:53:50] Cameron McEwen: Another day we'll do that.

[1:53:51] Cameron McEwen: That'd be an interesting story.

[1:53:53] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:53:53] Bob Dobbs: But the,

[1:53:54] Bob Dobbs: but,

[1:53:55] Bob Dobbs: um...

[1:53:55] Bob Dobbs: So the world changed after 9-1-1,

[1:53:58] Bob Dobbs: so that took the energy out of the MIHR project too.

[1:54:03] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:54:06] Bob Dobbs: what else?

[1:54:11] Bob Dobbs: We continued to do,

[1:54:12] Bob Dobbs: I always could take the MIHR stuff.

[1:54:17] Bob Dobbs: We continued to do it,

[1:54:18] Bob Dobbs: apply it to ourselves and other people.

[1:54:22] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:54:23] Bob Dobbs: what's interesting,

[1:54:24] Bob Dobbs: the Kohler.

[1:54:26] Bob Dobbs: They own some big drug company or something.

[1:54:29] Bob Dobbs: Purdue.

[1:54:31] Bob Dobbs: You might know the name,

[1:54:32] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:54:32] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:54:33] Cameron McEwen: yeah,

[1:54:33] Cameron McEwen: sure.

[1:54:34] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:54:34] Bob Dobbs: so the Sackler,

[1:54:35] Bob Dobbs: their daughter,

[1:54:37] Bob Dobbs: who might have been in her 40s or something,

[1:54:40] Bob Dobbs: they had a whole room section in the museum,

[1:54:45] Bob Dobbs: what is it,

[1:54:46] Bob Dobbs: Metropolitan Museum of New York or whatever it's called,

[1:54:48] Bob Dobbs: the one over on Fifth Avenue,

[1:54:51] Bob Dobbs: Metropolitan Museum of Art,

[1:54:52] Bob Dobbs: I think it is.

[1:54:53] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:54:53] Bob Dobbs: So the...

[1:54:55] Bob Dobbs: The daughter of the Sackler oligarchy in Big Pharma was a patient of Carolyn's.

[1:55:02] Bob Dobbs: at 325 E-60 fix and took MIHR and knew what it could do.

[1:55:07] Bob Dobbs: But she never helped the project.

[1:55:13] Bob Dobbs: She just took it selfishly.

[1:55:14] Bob Dobbs: She didn't want to undermine her own income from her drug company,

[1:55:19] Bob Dobbs: which we would obsolesce if we'd gotten out there,

[1:55:25] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:55:25] Bob Dobbs: A lot of things would have been fixed up.

[1:55:27] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:55:28] Bob Dobbs: I'm looking at Malcolm Forbes.

[1:55:30] Bob Dobbs: He dies in February 1990.

[1:55:33] Bob Dobbs: So that's a few months before Carolyn's going to hear about it.

[1:55:36] Bob Dobbs: So that took a bit of wind out of it,

[1:55:39] Bob Dobbs: but it wasn't that bad,

[1:55:42] Bob Dobbs: because the Shah took over.

[1:55:45] Bob Dobbs: Liz Taylor was still interested.

[1:55:47] Bob Dobbs: But then Walter died in 93.

[1:55:50] Bob Dobbs: So they had to recover from that.

[1:55:53] Bob Dobbs: And they lasted four years,

[1:55:56] Bob Dobbs: and then it wasn't so good.

[1:56:00] Bob Dobbs: In terms of spreading,

[1:56:01] Bob Dobbs: because the

[1:56:02] Bob Dobbs: AMA said you can't send this to other states.

[1:56:06] Bob Dobbs: And so in some ways,

[1:56:10] Bob Dobbs: in some ways,

[1:56:10] Bob Dobbs: Carolyn was up against.

[1:56:12] Bob Dobbs: What?

[1:56:13] Cameron McEwen: The business model was to try to interest people in using the mechanism.

[1:56:22] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:56:22] Bob Dobbs: it was to get a big name.

[1:56:24] Bob Dobbs: This is what Walter wanted to do,

[1:56:25] Bob Dobbs: get a big name to promote it.

[1:56:27] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[1:56:28] Cameron McEwen: But there's different.

[1:56:29] Cameron McEwen: possible business models.

[1:56:32] Cameron McEwen: One business model would be to sell the machine,

[1:56:36] Cameron McEwen: as it were,

[1:56:38] Cameron McEwen: but you could also have

[1:56:40] Cameron McEwen: business model where you would kind of franchise clinics.

[1:56:44] Bob Dobbs: That was the goal.

[1:56:45] Bob Dobbs: And that would be that would get around the export problem because people would have to come to New York to be trained and then they would be able to take the equipment not as something

[1:57:04] Bob Dobbs: being sold across state lines but as personal property back

[1:57:09] Bob Dobbs: to wherever they were going to do the practice.

[1:57:12] Bob Dobbs: And there were other possible business models.

[1:57:16] Bob Dobbs: So we did do that one.

[1:57:18] Bob Dobbs: So they did start in 94.

[1:57:20] Bob Dobbs: They had many seminars,

[1:57:22] Bob Dobbs: and people came and learned it.

[1:57:24] Bob Dobbs: But one guy went up to Alaska,

[1:57:26] Bob Dobbs: another went back to L.A.,

[1:57:28] Bob Dobbs: but they didn't do it well,

[1:57:29] Bob Dobbs: or they couldn't do it,

[1:57:30] Bob Dobbs: or they screwed it up.

[1:57:31] Bob Dobbs: It never really got going.

[1:57:34] Bob Dobbs: And so that was a drag.

[1:57:37] Bob Dobbs: And...

[1:57:38] Bob Dobbs: But Carolyn thought,

[1:57:39] Bob Dobbs: well,

[1:57:39] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[1:57:40] Bob Dobbs: can't be impatient.

[1:57:41] Bob Dobbs: Maybe in five or ten years we'll be able to do it if she got a higher profile.

[1:57:45] Bob Dobbs: And she was on her way to getting a higher profile.

[1:57:48] Bob Dobbs: But it didn't work in the long run.

[1:57:50] Bob Dobbs: It faded off.

[1:57:52] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:57:54] Bob Dobbs: Malcolm Forbes died in 1990.

[1:57:57] Bob Dobbs: Let's see,

[1:57:58] Bob Dobbs: when did Liz Taylor die?

[1:58:00] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[1:58:00] Cameron McEwen: much later.

[1:58:01] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:58:02] Cameron McEwen: probably another ten years.

[1:58:04] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[1:58:05] Cameron McEwen: yeah,

[1:58:05] Cameron McEwen: 2011.

[1:58:06] Bob Dobbs: But she wasn't around.

[1:58:08] Bob Dobbs: after Malcolm died very much.

[1:58:11] Bob Dobbs: So we did get,

[1:58:15] Bob Dobbs: the Mellons are a famous family on the level of the Rockefellers,

[1:58:19] Bob Dobbs: and one of their daughters,

[1:58:23] Bob Dobbs: they're a huge family,

[1:58:26] Bob Dobbs: one of their daughters became a friend of ours,

[1:58:28] Bob Dobbs: and she took the treatment,

[1:58:30] Bob Dobbs: and so she was another possibility,

[1:58:32] Bob Dobbs: but she got too involved with the Dalai Lama and what was called the Tibet House,

[1:58:36] Bob Dobbs: so she didn't.

[1:58:37] Bob Dobbs: do anything.

[1:58:38] Bob Dobbs: So for some reason,

[1:58:40] Bob Dobbs: it never really got the attention it should have.

[1:58:44] Bob Dobbs: But where we are today is way better than that.

[1:58:47] Bob Dobbs: That's a bulky thing compared to what we have now.

[1:58:49] Cameron McEwen: It contributed.

[1:58:51] Cameron McEwen: It got you thinking in sort of more commercial terms.

[1:58:57] Bob Dobbs: Also got me thinking more cosmically.

[1:58:59] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[1:59:00] Bob Dobbs: what if someone showed up and gave you,

[1:59:01] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:59:02] Bob Dobbs: a perfect energy device?

[1:59:04] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:59:05] Bob Dobbs: Cameron,

[1:59:07] Bob Dobbs: present it to the world.

[1:59:09] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:59:09] Bob Dobbs: first thing,

[1:59:10] Bob Dobbs: you have to deal with the oil companies.

[1:59:11] Bob Dobbs: They won't like you doing this,

[1:59:13] Bob Dobbs: and they'll try to kill you.

[1:59:14] Bob Dobbs: Anyways,

[1:59:16] Bob Dobbs: it made me think on a bigger level of responsibility about this thing.

[1:59:21] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[1:59:21] Bob Dobbs: I had a lot of time to think about it.

[1:59:22] Bob Dobbs: I wasn't doing it to anybody.

[1:59:25] Bob Dobbs: I wasn't the doctor.

[1:59:26] Bob Dobbs: But I was watching this unfold,

[1:59:29] Bob Dobbs: and I thought it might work.

[1:59:32] Bob Dobbs: And when I was interviewed for Bosnia and Herzegovina,

[1:59:35] Bob Dobbs: I would talk about what we had and that we were going to cure AIDS and all that.

[1:59:41] Cameron McEwen: But you would always,

[1:59:43] Cameron McEwen: unless I'm mistaken,

[1:59:45] Cameron McEwen: you would always had a sense of a kind of mission,

[1:59:48] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:59:49] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:59:49] Bob Dobbs: we both did.

[1:59:51] Cameron McEwen: What's that?

[1:59:52] Bob Dobbs: We both did.

[1:59:54] Bob Dobbs: We used to call it back in the late 60s,

[1:59:56] Bob Dobbs: early 70s,

[1:59:57] Bob Dobbs: the great work.

[1:59:58] Bob Dobbs: We knew we were going to do the great work,

[2:00:00] Bob Dobbs: whatever it is.

[2:00:01] Bob Dobbs: whatever we thought it was,

[2:00:03] Bob Dobbs: went through many different inspirational places,

[2:00:07] Bob Dobbs: like going to McLuhan.

[2:00:08] Bob Dobbs: There's a guy who had a big view.

[2:00:11] Bob Dobbs: He was someone that you had to be differently around.

[2:00:15] Bob Dobbs: You had to think differently.

[2:00:17] Bob Dobbs: You couldn't be a little person with little mind and little stupid issues.

[2:00:21] Bob Dobbs: And I was attracted to all kinds of geniuses,

[2:00:23] Bob Dobbs: and they became names on my chart.

[2:00:26] Bob Dobbs: So

[2:00:27] Bob Dobbs: I always was looking to do something huge.

[2:00:30] Bob Dobbs: That was just natural,

[2:00:31] Bob Dobbs: and so did Carolyn.

[2:00:33] Bob Dobbs: But we were very casual about it.

[2:00:35] Bob Dobbs: We weren't maniacs.

[2:00:36] Bob Dobbs: We had a good disposition about it,

[2:00:38] Bob Dobbs: a good sense of humor about it all.

[2:00:40] Bob Dobbs: But it was always there.

[2:00:41] Bob Dobbs: We knew we were going to do something.

[2:00:44] Bob Dobbs: But when you have a treatment for AIDS in the middle of that crisis,

[2:00:46] Bob Dobbs: that's quite a responsibility,

[2:00:50] Bob Dobbs: or you've got to be careful you don't go crazy in that situation.

[2:00:53] Bob Dobbs: You know?

[2:00:56] Bob Dobbs: Think you're superior or get mad because nobody's listening.

[2:01:00] Bob Dobbs: stuff like that.

[2:01:01] Bob Dobbs: We had to be cool about it.

[2:01:03] Bob Dobbs: So definitely that made me think bigger or something.

[2:01:10] Bob Dobbs: And it produced this chart.

[2:01:12] Bob Dobbs: Here's the thing I had arrived at.

[2:01:19] Bob Dobbs: So I'm thinking about the parts from the mirror machine.

[2:01:22] Bob Dobbs: Then I'm thinking of all the geniuses I had met and wondered how did they

[2:01:28] Bob Dobbs: influenced our destiny to get there,

[2:01:32] Bob Dobbs: to get to where we had gotten in the mid-90s.

[2:01:36] Bob Dobbs: And what was the other thing?

[2:01:40] Bob Dobbs: So I decided that patriarchy,

[2:01:46] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[2:01:47] Bob Dobbs: when in 99,

[2:01:50] Bob Dobbs: I interviewed Peggy Hitchcock about her life,

[2:01:55] Bob Dobbs: which was pretty amazing,

[2:01:57] Bob Dobbs: and her mother came through.

[2:02:01] Bob Dobbs: Oh yeah,

[2:02:02] Bob Dobbs: I got her to be interviewed by a psychic,

[2:02:04] Bob Dobbs: to have a session with a psychic lady was pretty good.

[2:02:07] Bob Dobbs: And her mother came through.

[2:02:11] Bob Dobbs: and told her that the era of men was over.

[2:02:17] Bob Dobbs: Men had blown it.

[2:02:18] Bob Dobbs: The patriarchy was gone,

[2:02:20] Bob Dobbs: and women are going to take over.

[2:02:22] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[2:02:22] Bob Dobbs: that was said in 1999.

[2:02:24] Bob Dobbs: That's four years after the chart.

[2:02:25] Bob Dobbs: But I somehow had that idea that Karen represented a breakthrough where women could take over science with this new technology,

[2:02:33] Bob Dobbs: a new kind of knowledge.

[2:02:34] Bob Dobbs: So my chart was the history of...

[2:02:39] Bob Dobbs: the patriarchy,

[2:02:40] Bob Dobbs: and then something happens that ends the patriarchy.

[2:02:43] Bob Dobbs: So my joke part of the chart was I was making a list of the best people that women should pay attention to if they're taken over.

[2:02:53] Bob Dobbs: So

[2:02:54] Bob Dobbs: I consider myself the last guy,

[2:02:57] Bob Dobbs: and I knew enough to accept the transition,

[2:03:00] Bob Dobbs: but I knew that the women wouldn't know what I knew,

[2:03:04] Bob Dobbs: especially from McLuhan and

[2:03:06] Bob Dobbs: Innis, and they need to know that.

[2:03:08] Bob Dobbs: So the chart was meant to be a celebration of people that the women,

[2:03:16] Bob Dobbs: whoever they are,

[2:03:16] Bob Dobbs: that quote take over,

[2:03:18] Bob Dobbs: they need to study.

[2:03:19] Bob Dobbs: The best that men had to produce.

[2:03:21] Bob Dobbs: It wasn't all a complete waste of time,

[2:03:24] Bob Dobbs: you know what I mean?

[2:03:26] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:03:27] Bob Dobbs: So that was another level that went into thinking of it,

[2:03:33] Bob Dobbs: and then it just got more and more involved.

[2:03:37] Bob Dobbs: because then I said,

[2:03:38] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[2:03:39] Bob Dobbs: these people are actually machinic.

[2:03:42] Bob Dobbs: They're media.

[2:03:44] Bob Dobbs: And I knew from Eric's thesis that people in Finnegans Wake were media,

[2:03:51] Bob Dobbs: like they could be a radio or a TV.

[2:03:54] Bob Dobbs: HCE was a radio transmitter on page like 308 or something in Finnegans Wake,

[2:04:00] Bob Dobbs: the beginning of the chapter after the school classroom book.

[2:04:06] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:04:06] Bob Dobbs: it was about 308,

[2:04:07] Bob Dobbs: I think,

[2:04:07] Bob Dobbs: 309.

[2:04:09] Bob Dobbs: HCE is described as a radio.

[2:04:11] Bob Dobbs: And a key quote in that section is,

[2:04:14] Bob Dobbs: In warm peace in the global village.

[2:04:16] Bob Dobbs: So I started to cyborg my characters.

[2:04:19] Bob Dobbs: And then I was saying,

[2:04:21] Bob Dobbs: well,

[2:04:21] Bob Dobbs: women are taking over because the anti-environment change people.

[2:04:25] Bob Dobbs: And so I wanted to show the evolution of the electric phases.

[2:04:29] Bob Dobbs: And I matched the different people to different phases.

[2:04:33] Bob Dobbs: So

[2:04:34] Bob Dobbs: LaRouche is...

[2:04:35] Bob Dobbs: is a Marxist.

[2:04:38] Bob Dobbs: That's what he was.

[2:04:39] Bob Dobbs: And then he updated Marxism with a semi-McLuhan understanding of technology as the ground.

[2:04:46] Bob Dobbs: So he made a very interesting new kind of economics.

[2:04:49] Bob Dobbs: But that's the

[2:04:51] Bob Dobbs: 19th century world,

[2:04:52] Bob Dobbs: I considered him.

[2:04:53] Bob Dobbs: So if you look on the chart,

[2:04:55] Bob Dobbs: he represents 1840 to 1900.

[2:05:00] Bob Dobbs: And it's crystallized as

[2:05:05] Bob Dobbs: 1947 to 57,

[2:05:09] Bob Dobbs: focused on 1960.

[2:05:11] Bob Dobbs: And this chart is from 1960 to 1990.

[2:05:16] Bob Dobbs: And it is the

[2:05:19] Bob Dobbs: Android Meme as hidden ground.

[2:05:21] Bob Dobbs: And then the Android Meme surfaces in the mid-90s as the Internet or the information highway.

[2:05:27] Bob Dobbs: So

[2:05:28] Bob Dobbs: I said,

[2:05:28] Bob Dobbs: I'm making a picture of the background.

[2:05:32] Bob Dobbs: to the anti-environment,

[2:05:34] Bob Dobbs: but anti-environment is a figure,

[2:05:37] Bob Dobbs: and it's ground from 60 to 90,

[2:05:39] Bob Dobbs: okay?

[2:05:40] Bob Dobbs: So that was another structural point.

[2:05:44] Cameron McEwen: Let me just make sure I understand here.

[2:05:46] Cameron McEwen: You were talking about

[2:05:49] Cameron McEwen: Lyndon LaRouche in the...

[2:05:52] Bob Dobbs: 19th century.

[2:05:52] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:05:53] Cameron McEwen: 1840 to 1900,

[2:05:56] Cameron McEwen: and then you jumped to the

[2:05:59] Cameron McEwen: Pentad level.

[2:06:01] Cameron McEwen: Porsche in 1960 to 1990,

[2:06:06] Cameron McEwen: and you're saying that this

[2:06:08] Cameron McEwen: 100 years later is the ground of...

[2:06:14] Bob Dobbs: I jumped ahead.

[2:06:17] Bob Dobbs: I have to go back and redo it better for you.

[2:06:21] Bob Dobbs: So the chart is going to be a picture of the Internet,

[2:06:26] Bob Dobbs: but the Internet was an afterimage of the Android Meme.

[2:06:30] Bob Dobbs: which was grown from 1960 to 1990.

[2:06:34] Bob Dobbs: The digital world was grown out of MIT.

[2:06:36] Bob Dobbs: There's different companies.

[2:06:38] Bob Dobbs: You don't read any history.

[2:06:40] Bob Dobbs: MIT was doing stuff in the late 60s and early...

[2:06:44] Bob Dobbs: late 50s,

[2:06:44] Bob Dobbs: early 60s,

[2:06:45] Bob Dobbs: and there's a progression of companies taking over coming up to 1969 when they did the first Internet connection between UCLA and maybe the University of Utah or something,

[2:07:00] Bob Dobbs: or Berkeley.

[2:07:00] Bob Dobbs: I get them mixed up.

[2:07:02] Bob Dobbs: It's either Berkeley or...

[2:07:03] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:07:04] Cameron McEwen: I think it's Berkeley.

[2:07:05] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[2:07:06] Bob Dobbs: And it's the first week of September 69,

[2:07:10] Bob Dobbs: and the first message is an incompleted...

[2:07:13] Bob Dobbs: It becomes

[2:07:14] Bob Dobbs: L-O. I think they were typing in hello,

[2:07:17] Bob Dobbs: and it just got to be

[2:07:18] Bob Dobbs: L-O, low,

[2:07:20] Bob Dobbs: like the magician's wand.

[2:07:21] Cameron McEwen: It's like a replay of Alexander Graham Bell.

[2:07:24] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[2:07:25] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[2:07:26] Bob Dobbs: So,

[2:07:28] Bob Dobbs: and then every month,

[2:07:30] Bob Dobbs: the first week of the month,

[2:07:31] Bob Dobbs: they'd add another connection,

[2:07:33] Bob Dobbs: and they went across,

[2:07:35] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[2:07:36] Bob Dobbs: four or five universities across the country.

[2:07:38] Bob Dobbs: I think it ended up at MIT.

[2:07:40] Bob Dobbs: But...

[2:07:42] Bob Dobbs: That was being built,

[2:07:46] Bob Dobbs: and then that would blossom in the

[2:07:48] Bob Dobbs: 90s with Mosaic in 93 and then Netscape,

[2:07:54] Bob Dobbs: and Watson,

[2:07:55] Bob Dobbs: Tim Berners-Lee,

[2:07:55] Bob Dobbs: inventing the

[2:07:57] Bob Dobbs: HTML in 91.

[2:07:58] Bob Dobbs: So I had all that history.

[2:08:00] Bob Dobbs: So I was trying to process what everybody was trying to do in the mid-90s.

[2:08:04] Bob Dobbs: What the hell is this thing that gets everybody talking to everybody,

[2:08:07] Bob Dobbs: right?

[2:08:07] Bob Dobbs: It's quite a...

[2:08:09] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:08:09] Bob Dobbs: Internet was quite a surprise for everybody.

[2:08:12] Bob Dobbs: And,

[2:08:13] Bob Dobbs: of course,

[2:08:13] Bob Dobbs: I knew what McLuhan had said,

[2:08:15] Bob Dobbs: and later they say,

[2:08:16] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[2:08:17] Bob Dobbs: he predicted the Internet.

[2:08:18] Bob Dobbs: But so I had a lot of these good thoughts from my studies that were worth putting into order.

[2:08:26] Bob Dobbs: With a the main McLuhan aspect is the hidden anti-environment being built and no one notices it.

[2:08:34] Bob Dobbs: And then when it's obsolesced,

[2:08:36] Bob Dobbs: it becomes the figure and everybody knows it.

[2:08:39] Bob Dobbs: So the digital work that was being done in universities and all over the place from 60 to 90 completed in 1990,

[2:08:48] Bob Dobbs: and I have other reasons why it completed in 1990.

[2:08:51] Bob Dobbs: And then we had the afterimage.

[2:08:53] Bob Dobbs: So I considered the Internet an afterimage.

[2:08:56] Bob Dobbs: So that was a conscious understanding of what the picture was going to be.

[2:09:02] Bob Dobbs: But

[2:09:03] Bob Dobbs: I had to deal with all the different knowledge forms from 1840 to 1960.

[2:09:09] Bob Dobbs: the analog media history,

[2:09:12] Bob Dobbs: right?

[2:09:13] Bob Dobbs: I'm doing the analog.

[2:09:15] Bob Dobbs: And so

[2:09:21] Bob Dobbs: I considered

[2:09:22] Bob Dobbs: LaRouche, McLuhan,

[2:09:24] Bob Dobbs: Thompson,

[2:09:25] Bob Dobbs: Kroker,

[2:09:25] Bob Dobbs: myself,

[2:09:27] Bob Dobbs: as after images of the ground of analog technology development.

[2:09:35] Bob Dobbs: So now let's look at the chart.

[2:09:38] Bob Dobbs: Let's look at some of the words here.

[2:09:39] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:09:41] Cameron McEwen: Bob,

[2:09:41] Cameron McEwen: I think we're getting close to the end because I'm going to have to sign off in the next five minutes or so.

[2:09:51] Cameron McEwen: I wonder if,

[2:09:53] Cameron McEwen: am I correct in thinking that what you're setting out is a number of different sort of structural principles that went into...

[2:10:06] Cameron McEwen: how the chart was conceived and assembled.

[2:10:11] Cameron McEwen: So you have the history of technology idea,

[2:10:18] Cameron McEwen: you have the handing on to the matriarchy idea,

[2:10:24] Cameron McEwen: you have the mirror idea somehow in here.

[2:10:31] Cameron McEwen: By the way,

[2:10:31] Cameron McEwen: at one point you talked about the parts of mirror.

[2:10:35] Cameron McEwen: And I didn't know what you meant when you said the parts of mirror.

[2:10:40] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:10:40] Bob Dobbs: that's the herbs,

[2:10:41] Bob Dobbs: the homeopathy,

[2:10:44] Bob Dobbs: the magnetic and the acupuncture.

[2:10:45] Bob Dobbs: So let me tell you if I remember it right.

[2:10:50] Bob Dobbs: I think Thompson,

[2:10:51] Bob Dobbs: who was a New Age guru and talked about

[2:10:56] Bob Dobbs: Gaia, I think he was herbs.

[2:10:59] Bob Dobbs: LaRouche was technology.

[2:11:03] Bob Dobbs: So he was the magnetic.

[2:11:04] Bob Dobbs: electrical magnetic part.

[2:11:06] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan was acupuncture because I have him interacting with China,

[2:11:14] Bob Dobbs: and he says China is the new ground in the

[2:11:16] Bob Dobbs: 60s. And then

[2:11:18] Bob Dobbs: Kroker would have to be the holeopathic process.

[2:11:22] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[2:11:24] Bob Dobbs: See,

[2:11:24] Bob Dobbs: the holeopathic process is what Jean Baudrillard talked about.

[2:11:28] Bob Dobbs: He saw technology being homeopathized,

[2:11:32] Bob Dobbs: and so did McLuhan.

[2:11:33] Bob Dobbs: in one sentence back in the

[2:11:35] Bob Dobbs: 50s.

[2:11:37] Bob Dobbs: But so the parts were hardware technology.

[2:11:42] Bob Dobbs: That's LaRouche.

[2:11:44] Bob Dobbs: And he represented technological liberalism.

[2:11:46] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan represented Catholicism and Thomism in particular.

[2:11:51] Bob Dobbs: So he was acupuncture.

[2:11:52] Bob Dobbs: And I had some thinking about,

[2:11:55] Bob Dobbs: I don't know,

[2:11:55] Bob Dobbs: Through the Vanishing Point or some aspect of McLuhan thinking expressed acupuncture.

[2:12:01] Bob Dobbs: And then the Earth's idealism was Thomson.

[2:12:07] Bob Dobbs: That's herbs.

[2:12:09] Bob Dobbs: And then

[2:12:10] Bob Dobbs: Kroker is...

[2:12:12] Bob Dobbs: the homeopathy process he developed it from Baudrillard and then i was the integration the integration of them all i was the effect

[2:12:26] Cameron McEwen: i like i like the idea of McLuhan as acupuncture because acupuncture has a number of different nodes and

[2:12:34] Cameron McEwen: you um uh the uh acupuncture system um

[2:12:40] Cameron McEwen: you could say is a network,

[2:12:43] Cameron McEwen: right?

[2:12:45] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[2:12:46] Cameron McEwen: So

[2:12:46] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan can be a probe,

[2:12:50] Cameron McEwen: can be conceived as an acupuncture needle which needs to be placed in the proper part of the network in order to pay off.

[2:13:05] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[2:13:05] Bob Dobbs: you'll see that McLuhan has the category rhizome in it.

[2:13:09] Bob Dobbs: And that's...

[2:13:11] Bob Dobbs: Like the meridians that acupuncture through the body,

[2:13:14] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[2:13:14] Bob Dobbs: the rhizome,

[2:13:15] Bob Dobbs: the subterranean spreading out of the strawberry plant is in the central nervous system.

[2:13:24] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:13:24] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[2:13:25] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[2:13:25] Cameron McEwen: and that's great for McLuhan because I personally,

[2:13:28] Cameron McEwen: I think at his best,

[2:13:31] Cameron McEwen: he's talking about media as groups,

[2:13:36] Cameron McEwen: as principles.

[2:13:39] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:13:40] Bob Dobbs: I was just thinking,

[2:13:41] Bob Dobbs: I think his probing,

[2:13:43] Bob Dobbs: stinging people with Menippean satire,

[2:13:46] Bob Dobbs: that might have been part of it,

[2:13:47] Bob Dobbs: the needle part.

[2:13:49] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:13:50] Cameron McEwen: needling.

[2:13:50] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:13:51] Bob Dobbs: needling.

[2:13:52] Bob Dobbs: And what did he say?

[2:13:55] Bob Dobbs: Doesn't he have a famous quote with the word needles in it?

[2:14:01] Bob Dobbs: He has that one,

[2:14:02] Bob Dobbs: the buzzsaw of technology.

[2:14:04] Bob Dobbs: Why do people put their hands in the buzzsaw?

[2:14:07] Bob Dobbs: Buzz saw of technology,

[2:14:09] Bob Dobbs: or,

[2:14:09] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[2:14:09] Bob Dobbs: they embrace new technology and then their hands get cut off.

[2:14:13] Cameron McEwen: I'm thinking something about the teeth of the saw.

[2:14:17] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:14:17] Bob Dobbs: but there,

[2:14:18] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if that's the right quote,

[2:14:19] Bob Dobbs: but there was something in McLuhan,

[2:14:21] Bob Dobbs: a quote that fit.

[2:14:23] Bob Dobbs: But anyways,

[2:14:26] Bob Dobbs: I haven't thought about this stuff too much in that part.

[2:14:30] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[2:14:30] Bob Dobbs: I do remember Herb's and LaRouche's magnetism,

[2:14:34] Bob Dobbs: electrical magnetism and electromagnetism.

[2:14:38] Bob Dobbs: Kroker is easy.

[2:14:39] Bob Dobbs: He's holeopathic because it comes from Baudrillard.

[2:14:42] Bob Dobbs: But I can't remember the angle that made it very appropriate that McLuhan was acupuncture.

[2:14:46] Bob Dobbs: But you're getting parts of it.

[2:14:48] Bob Dobbs: It may not be exactly what I was thinking,

[2:14:50] Bob Dobbs: but it works.

[2:14:52] Bob Dobbs: So let's leave it.

[2:14:55] Bob Dobbs: And then those are going to become anti-environment,

[2:14:57] Bob Dobbs: which is the satellite is the ground,

[2:15:01] Bob Dobbs: but it's being processed.

[2:15:02] Bob Dobbs: So I have holeopathic radio,

[2:15:05] Bob Dobbs: holeopathic television.

[2:15:07] Bob Dobbs: That's McLuhan.

[2:15:08] Bob Dobbs: Radio is LaRouche.

[2:15:09] Bob Dobbs: Computer is Thompson.

[2:15:11] Bob Dobbs: Holeopathic Satellite is Kroker.

[2:15:15] Bob Dobbs: So that's the cyborg part.

[2:15:18] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?

[2:15:19] Bob Dobbs: And there is a gap between the human and the technology,

[2:15:23] Bob Dobbs: but a visual map might make people think they're joined.

[2:15:31] Bob Dobbs: See,

[2:15:31] Bob Dobbs: it fosters linear connections.

[2:15:33] Bob Dobbs: So the chart is biased.

[2:15:35] Bob Dobbs: It's a biased view.

[2:15:37] Bob Dobbs: of the Android Meme as figure so i'm going to explain to you what uh i would do if i made a video out of it it'd be very different you know what i mean yeah but maybe we have to just uh start uh

[2:15:54] Bob Dobbs: next time yeah um with um an explanation of um you know what that was a lot of stuff i got i got to explain the dating

[2:16:07] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:16:08] Bob Dobbs: and then there's why the triad comes before the diad.

[2:16:13] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:16:14] Bob Dobbs: It seems so.

[2:16:15] Cameron McEwen: That's important.

[2:16:17] Bob Dobbs: Just to say,

[2:16:18] Bob Dobbs: since the Android Meme actually was a replay after the satellite,

[2:16:24] Bob Dobbs: it was moving out of the human dimension or analog media.

[2:16:28] Bob Dobbs: So McLuhan and Kroker Thompson are not the ground.

[2:16:34] Bob Dobbs: The ground is the vortices.

[2:16:37] Bob Dobbs: So...

[2:16:38] Bob Dobbs: LaRouche Burroughs Ezra Pound.

[2:16:41] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan Burroughs Lewis.

[2:16:42] Bob Dobbs: Thompson Burroughs T.S.

[2:16:44] Bob Dobbs: Eliot.

[2:16:45] Bob Dobbs: Kroker Burroughs

[2:16:46] Bob Dobbs: WBH. And I redo Joyce.

[2:16:49] Bob Dobbs: You're thinking,

[2:16:49] Bob Dobbs: I'm the integrator.

[2:16:50] Bob Dobbs: That's the fitting is wake.

[2:16:52] Bob Dobbs: So that's what's going on here.

[2:16:55] Bob Dobbs: You'll see how they're a replay of when it was still unfolding,

[2:17:01] Bob Dobbs: the analog media evolution.

[2:17:03] Bob Dobbs: So that's really interesting.

[2:17:05] Bob Dobbs: I remember in your book.

[2:17:09] Bob Dobbs: I can't remember his name.

[2:17:10] Bob Dobbs: The one with the blue cover.

[2:17:13] Bob Dobbs: Phatic communion.

[2:17:16] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[2:17:16] Bob Dobbs: Phatic communion.

[2:17:17] Bob Dobbs: Absolutely.

[2:17:18] Bob Dobbs: So the four figures in there,

[2:17:22] Bob Dobbs: the four figures you're talking about here in the chart,

[2:17:25] Bob Dobbs: right?

[2:17:25] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:17:25] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:17:27] Cameron McEwen: The book was done in 92 before the chart,

[2:17:30] Cameron McEwen: but it's the effect preceding the cause.

[2:17:33] Cameron McEwen: That's the contents of the important quotes of each one of them.

[2:17:38] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[2:17:38] Bob Dobbs: And then you,

[2:17:39] Bob Dobbs: in

[2:17:39] Bob Dobbs: 99 or 98,

[2:17:41] Bob Dobbs: I can't remember when it was that we met at Mark's place.

[2:17:45] Bob Dobbs: 98.

[2:17:46] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:17:46] Bob Dobbs: you gave me that book.

[2:17:48] Cameron McEwen: Ah,

[2:17:49] Cameron McEwen: now it's purple cover,

[2:17:50] Cameron McEwen: not blue,

[2:17:51] Cameron McEwen: purple.

[2:17:52] Bob Dobbs: Ah,

[2:17:52] Bob Dobbs: well,

[2:17:53] Bob Dobbs: there you go.

[2:17:54] Bob Dobbs: I have that in the garage somewhere along with the...

[2:17:58] Cameron McEwen: With the flip side.

[2:17:59] Cameron McEwen: You got a Bob box.

[2:18:01] Cameron McEwen: Maybe you get a Bob box.

[2:18:03] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[2:18:04] Bob Dobbs: Absolutely.

[2:18:05] Cameron McEwen: But look for it when you get a chance.

[2:18:07] Cameron McEwen: if it's not too difficult.

[2:18:08] Cameron McEwen: But the...

[2:18:10] Bob Dobbs: So we just begun.

[2:18:12] Bob Dobbs: It becomes incredibly complicated and encyclopedic.

[2:18:15] Bob Dobbs: I built on it,

[2:18:16] Bob Dobbs: you know.

[2:18:17] Bob Dobbs: It didn't take me very long,

[2:18:18] Bob Dobbs: a week or something,

[2:18:20] Bob Dobbs: to think it through.

[2:18:21] Bob Dobbs: But I had everything was ready to spill out.

[2:18:25] Bob Dobbs: And so I have to explain the beginning at the top.

[2:18:28] Bob Dobbs: Rye,

[2:18:29] Bob Dobbs: Eloy,

[2:18:29] Bob Dobbs: Too,

[2:18:29] Bob Dobbs: Lofty,

[2:18:30] Bob Dobbs: and Bob.

[2:18:31] Bob Dobbs: Okay?

[2:18:31] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:18:32] Bob Dobbs: That's the beginning point.

[2:18:34] Bob Dobbs: So...

[2:18:37] Cameron McEwen: That's obviously a basketball team.

[2:18:41] Bob Dobbs: Which one?

[2:18:42] Bob Dobbs: You're saying the players,

[2:18:43] Bob Dobbs: the names refer to basketball?

[2:18:45] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:18:45] Bob Dobbs: five players.

[2:18:45] Cameron McEwen: I'm just joking on the fact that there's five of them.

[2:18:50] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[2:18:50] Bob Dobbs: there is.

[2:18:50] Bob Dobbs: Wilt Chamberlain's in the chart.

[2:18:52] Cameron McEwen: There you go.

[2:18:55] Bob Dobbs: But the thing is,

[2:18:57] Bob Dobbs: the Android Meme.

[2:18:58] Cameron McEwen: Magic Johnson.

[2:19:00] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:19:00] Bob Dobbs: Are you looking at it?

[2:19:02] Cameron McEwen: No,

[2:19:02] Cameron McEwen: no.

[2:19:02] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:19:03] Bob Dobbs: and Magic Johnson.

[2:19:04] Bob Dobbs: He's down there.

[2:19:07] Bob Dobbs: with Wayne Gretzky,

[2:19:09] Bob Dobbs: and there's a reason for that.

[2:19:12] Bob Dobbs: So a certain bigger view that we can end with is the Android Meme is post-analogical media,

[2:19:20] Bob Dobbs: which ended with the satellite,

[2:19:21] Bob Dobbs: which was an extension of the planet after doing all our faculties.

[2:19:25] Bob Dobbs: So that was a completion,

[2:19:27] Bob Dobbs: and then we went into this weird world of the digital,

[2:19:29] Bob Dobbs: which is,

[2:19:30] Bob Dobbs: I would say,

[2:19:30] Bob Dobbs: machines extending themselves,

[2:19:32] Bob Dobbs: not our faculties,

[2:19:35] Bob Dobbs: and not the planet.

[2:19:36] Bob Dobbs: So

[2:19:38] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan and all them are after images,

[2:19:41] Bob Dobbs: no,

[2:19:42] Bob Dobbs: replays,

[2:19:43] Bob Dobbs: cliche probes of when it was real back in the 1910s and

[2:19:49] Bob Dobbs: 20s when people mattered.

[2:19:52] Bob Dobbs: Before you get the end of history in 1945,

[2:19:55] Bob Dobbs: those guys are the ground of the analog media.

[2:19:59] Bob Dobbs: And so they get replayed and each one of them represents,

[2:20:04] Bob Dobbs: LaRouche represents.

[2:20:06] Bob Dobbs: 10 years.

[2:20:09] Bob Dobbs: 47 to 57.

[2:20:11] Bob Dobbs: Crystallized in 1960.

[2:20:13] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan represents

[2:20:15] Bob Dobbs: 57 to 67.

[2:20:17] Bob Dobbs: Crystallized in 1965.

[2:20:20] Bob Dobbs: Thompson is 67 to 72.

[2:20:22] Bob Dobbs: Crystallized in 1970.

[2:20:24] Bob Dobbs: That's when

[2:20:25] Bob Dobbs: Earth Day started.

[2:20:26] Bob Dobbs: He was part of that world.

[2:20:28] Bob Dobbs: And then Kroker is 72 to 77.

[2:20:31] Bob Dobbs: Crystallized in 1980.

[2:20:33] Bob Dobbs: And that's when Reagan,

[2:20:34] Bob Dobbs: the virtual president,

[2:20:35] Bob Dobbs: comes in.

[2:20:36] Bob Dobbs: And that's the postmodern era.

[2:20:38] Bob Dobbs: So that's how you read the dates within the structure in the middle of it.

[2:20:46] Bob Dobbs: Okay?

[2:20:48] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:20:48] Cameron McEwen: I'm just trying to look up something here that you might be interested in as a Empson.

[2:21:05] Cameron McEwen: This is in

[2:21:06] Cameron McEwen: Media and the Inflation Crowd.

[2:21:09] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:21:10] Cameron McEwen: An essay that was in

[2:21:12] Cameron McEwen: George Sanderson

[2:21:16] Cameron McEwen: Annie Ganesh review and then in his book.

[2:21:19] Cameron McEwen: And apparently it was written in the

[2:21:23] Cameron McEwen: 60s, but didn't get published until the

[2:21:27] Bob Dobbs: 80s. What was it called?

[2:21:30] Cameron McEwen: The essay,

[2:21:31] Cameron McEwen: Media and the Inflation Crowd.

[2:21:33] Cameron McEwen: Right,

[2:21:33] Cameron McEwen: right.

[2:21:34] Cameron McEwen: Whereas the one,

[2:21:35] Cameron McEwen: the great one in 74 is a media approach to inflation.

[2:21:38] Cameron McEwen: This was before that.

[2:21:40] Cameron McEwen: I think I had written 73.

[2:21:41] Cameron McEwen: I have the original,

[2:21:43] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[2:21:44] Cameron McEwen: Xerox typing thing.

[2:21:47] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[2:21:47] Cameron McEwen: interesting.

[2:21:48] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:21:49] Cameron McEwen: You know,

[2:21:50] Cameron McEwen: all of these,

[2:21:50] Cameron McEwen: excuse me,

[2:21:52] Cameron McEwen: I got a frog in my throat here.

[2:21:54] Cameron McEwen: All of these late essays are basically thrown together out of earlier notes,

[2:22:05] Cameron McEwen: some of which were published,

[2:22:07] Cameron McEwen: some of them not.

[2:22:08] Cameron McEwen: And then the interesting stuff always comes in the middle where he joined up the fragments that came from another time.

[2:22:16] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[2:22:18] Cameron McEwen: But anyway,

[2:22:19] Cameron McEwen: here in

[2:22:20] Cameron McEwen: Media and the Inflation Crowd,

[2:22:23] Cameron McEwen: he says that,

[2:22:26] Cameron McEwen: this is a quote from McLuhan,

[2:22:28] Cameron McEwen: Sputnik,

[2:22:28] Cameron McEwen: October 4th,

[2:22:29] Cameron McEwen: 1957,

[2:22:31] Cameron McEwen: and its successors represent something quite different,

[2:22:35] Cameron McEwen: namely an extension of the planet itself,

[2:22:38] Cameron McEwen: creating new ground for man in the sky and calling despotically for a new equilibrium.

[2:22:46] Cameron McEwen: and harmony of action and knowledge.

[2:22:51] Cameron McEwen: I think I may have read that in one of our earlier conversations.

[2:22:54] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:22:54] Cameron McEwen: last week.

[2:22:56] Cameron McEwen: But it still seems to me to capture what we're talking about.

[2:23:04] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:23:05] Bob Dobbs: the process.

[2:23:05] Bob Dobbs: And it's later,

[2:23:09] Bob Dobbs: what's the phrase?

[2:23:12] Cameron McEwen: Sputnik and its successors.

[2:23:15] Cameron McEwen: created something quite different,

[2:23:17] Cameron McEwen: namely an extension of the planet itself,

[2:23:20] Cameron McEwen: creating a new ground for man in the sky.

[2:23:24] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[2:23:24] Cameron McEwen: Calling despotic,

[2:23:26] Cameron McEwen: sorry?

[2:23:27] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:23:27] Bob Dobbs: no,

[2:23:27] Bob Dobbs: and despotic.

[2:23:28] Bob Dobbs: But that is,

[2:23:30] Bob Dobbs: I knew that essay back then,

[2:23:33] Bob Dobbs: and I'm sure that was part of my thinking in the holeopathic process.

[2:23:40] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:23:40] Cameron McEwen: this,

[2:23:40] Cameron McEwen: but the,

[2:23:41] Cameron McEwen: not only the new ground in the sky.

[2:23:46] Cameron McEwen: is a big theme in your thinking.

[2:23:49] Cameron McEwen: But this calling despotically for a new equilibrium and harmony of action and knowledge,

[2:23:56] Cameron McEwen: that's the demand that has increasingly been made since

[2:24:03] Cameron McEwen: 1945 and has now reached a crescendo.

[2:24:10] Cameron McEwen: If we don't find the new equilibrium.

[2:24:11] Bob Dobbs: It's reached lockdown proportions.

[2:24:16] Bob Dobbs: Look at this COVID thing.

[2:24:18] Bob Dobbs: It's a global lockdown.

[2:24:23] Bob Dobbs: And there's a lot of stuff that's happened with me,

[2:24:26] Bob Dobbs: Carolyn,

[2:24:27] Bob Dobbs: and Ion that the chart predicted.

[2:24:30] Bob Dobbs: That'll be interesting.

[2:24:31] Bob Dobbs: But that'll be way,

[2:24:33] Bob Dobbs: I'm not going into that way down there,

[2:24:35] Bob Dobbs: down the road.

[2:24:36] Bob Dobbs: But it's pretty interesting what has unfolded.

[2:24:39] Bob Dobbs: And this chart anticipated,

[2:24:44] Bob Dobbs: caused it,

[2:24:45] Bob Dobbs: something.

[2:24:47] Bob Dobbs: All right.

[2:24:49] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:24:50] Cameron McEwen: we'll start to take that up in detail next time,

[2:24:53] Cameron McEwen: Bob.

[2:24:53] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[2:24:54] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[2:24:54] Bob Dobbs: we may not get to that thing,

[2:24:56] Bob Dobbs: but no,

[2:24:56] Bob Dobbs: there's a whole talk I've got to give of how this

[2:25:01] Bob Dobbs: I've got to explain a lot of the encyclopedic part of it and why it's this way.

[2:25:08] Bob Dobbs: And I forgot to say that after

[2:25:10] Bob Dobbs: Kroker, 72 to 77,

[2:25:12] Bob Dobbs: crystallized in 1980,

[2:25:13] Bob Dobbs: the Dobbs quadrant is

[2:25:15] Bob Dobbs: 77 to 90 or 92.

[2:25:17] Bob Dobbs: I put 92 in there,

[2:25:20] Bob Dobbs: but it could be 90.

[2:25:21] Bob Dobbs: But anyways,

[2:25:21] Bob Dobbs: it crystallizes in 1990.

[2:25:24] Bob Dobbs: That's when the walls fall,

[2:25:26] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[2:25:29] Bob Dobbs: the European

[2:25:31] Bob Dobbs: Berlin Wall and other walls.

[2:25:38] Bob Dobbs: So that's why it's 1990.

[2:25:40] Bob Dobbs: And it started with LaRouche in

[2:25:43] Bob Dobbs: 1960.

[2:25:44] Bob Dobbs: replays of 1840 to 1945,

[2:25:53] Cameron McEwen: 1959.

[2:25:54] Cameron McEwen: But I mean,

[2:25:55] Cameron McEwen: what's interesting to me Innis stuff is the psychological decentralization of the names and the events.

[2:26:07] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:26:07] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[2:26:12] Cameron McEwen: You're thinking jumps...

[2:26:14] Cameron McEwen: around and that's and it's uh that's the interesting part of it to me uh that uh how the jumps are made what the rhythm is what the jazz is of your of your thinking but i think if anybody were

[2:26:31] Cameron McEwen: to go to the chart and were to say okay here's magic johnson and gretzky and so um that means the person of Magic Johnson and the person of

[2:26:43] Cameron McEwen: Gretzky.

[2:26:44] Cameron McEwen: I think they're just approaching it wrongly.

[2:26:47] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[2:26:48] Cameron McEwen: They have to ask themselves.

[2:26:51] Cameron McEwen: How are these names and these events representative?

[2:26:55] Bob Dobbs: In each quadrant.

[2:26:57] Bob Dobbs: How are they resonant with each section?

[2:26:59] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:27:00] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[2:27:01] Cameron McEwen: That's very good.

[2:27:02] Cameron McEwen: So the first thing you have to do is deliteralize and try to understand the rhythm and the boom of these things.

[2:27:14] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[2:27:14] Bob Dobbs: exactly.

[2:27:16] Bob Dobbs: Because this is...

[2:27:17] Bob Dobbs: A swirling at the bottom,

[2:27:19] Bob Dobbs: it says,

[2:27:19] Bob Dobbs: Orphic Baroque Spirals.

[2:27:21] Bob Dobbs: This is a spiraling,

[2:27:24] Bob Dobbs: what do you call that thing,

[2:27:25] Bob Dobbs: xyrogoat,

[2:27:26] Bob Dobbs: xyroscope,

[2:27:27] Bob Dobbs: gyroscope.

[2:27:28] Cameron McEwen: Gyroscope,

[2:27:29] Cameron McEwen: yeah,

[2:27:29] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.

[2:27:30] Bob Dobbs: Gyroscopic action,

[2:27:32] Bob Dobbs: all kinds of stuff that would be quite a video,

[2:27:36] Bob Dobbs: if I ever got the time or situation to make it.

[2:27:41] Bob Dobbs: But,

[2:27:42] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[2:27:42] Bob Dobbs: this is a total lie.

[2:27:47] Bob Dobbs: The

[2:27:48] Bob Dobbs: Dobbs formula chart is visually biased and meant to be that way.

[2:27:52] Bob Dobbs: It's sequential.

[2:27:53] Bob Dobbs: But this Tiny Note is the big now with all these levels,

[2:27:59] Bob Dobbs: resonance,

[2:28:00] Bob Dobbs: and spheres interacting,

[2:28:03] Bob Dobbs: interpellating,

[2:28:04] Bob Dobbs: as they say.

[2:28:07] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:28:08] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[2:28:09] Bob Dobbs: So one of the last words on the chart is danced.

[2:28:14] Bob Dobbs: um

[2:28:16] Cameron McEwen: So there's a dance going on here that needs to be understood.

[2:28:25] Bob Dobbs: What we talked about today are the structural membranes of the thing.

[2:28:33] Cameron McEwen: Of the Decad Dance,

[2:28:35] Cameron McEwen: which is at the top.

[2:28:38] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:28:39] Cameron McEwen: dance is probably the only,

[2:28:40] Cameron McEwen: well,

[2:28:41] Cameron McEwen: the word bacteria is repeated,

[2:28:42] Cameron McEwen: but...

[2:28:43] Cameron McEwen: Dance is one of the few words repeated.

[2:28:46] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:28:46] Cameron McEwen: no,

[2:28:46] Cameron McEwen: Holy Apostate is repeated.

[2:28:48] Bob Dobbs: Is it the Decad Dance?

[2:28:48] Bob Dobbs: I don't see that.

[2:28:49] Cameron McEwen: At the very top,

[2:28:50] Cameron McEwen: the Innis Bob's Tiny Note equals the Grand Wazoo Decad Dance.

[2:28:54] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[2:28:54] Bob Dobbs: there it is.

[2:28:54] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:28:56] Cameron McEwen: And then you've got the cyclotron,

[2:28:59] Cameron McEwen: you know.

[2:28:59] Cameron McEwen: There's a lot of spinning going on there.

[2:29:04] Cameron McEwen: So it's actually very interesting,

[2:29:08] Cameron McEwen: the whole thing,

[2:29:09] Cameron McEwen: when you talk about its parts.

[2:29:13] Bob Dobbs: Good.

[2:29:13] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[2:29:14] Bob Dobbs: we'll get into that next time.

[2:29:16] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[2:29:17] Bob Dobbs: All right.

[2:29:19] Bob Dobbs: Your interpretation is very smart.

[2:29:25] Bob Dobbs: It helps me explain it.

[2:29:32] Bob Dobbs: Actually,

[2:29:34] Bob Dobbs: your second sight is getting the explanation from my brain.

[2:29:41] Bob Dobbs: You're picking up on it.

[2:29:42] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:29:42] Cameron McEwen: I'm trying to...

[2:29:44] Cameron McEwen: I'm trying to be a mimesis of a great interviewer in Hawaii.

[2:29:57] Cameron McEwen: I'm trying to interview you in a way that brings this stuff out.

[2:30:01] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:30:01] Bob Dobbs: you're doing a good job.

[2:30:03] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[2:30:04] Bob Dobbs: so thank you very much,

[2:30:05] Bob Dobbs: and we'll talk next week.

[2:30:07] Cameron McEwen: All right.

[2:30:08] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[2:30:08] Bob Dobbs: bye.

[2:30:09] Cameron McEwen: Bye.