[00:03] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[00:03] Bob Dobbs: this is Bob and Cameron again.
[00:06] Bob Dobbs: Bob and Cameron.
[00:09] Bob Dobbs: Bob and Cameron
[00:10] Bob Dobbs: McEwen.
[00:13] Bob Dobbs: And we're doing our
[00:16] Bob Dobbs: 13th episode on my book on pamphlet book that is titled,
[00:32] Bob Dobbs: what is it?
[00:32] Bob Dobbs: title.
[00:33] Bob Dobbs: Let's see.
[00:35] Cameron McEwen: What We Didn't Know About Trump.
[00:37] Bob Dobbs: Thank you.
[00:39] Bob Dobbs: What we,
[00:40] Bob Dobbs: you,
[00:46] Bob Dobbs: I've looked at in a while.
[00:47] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[00:48] Bob Dobbs: What we slash you didn't know about Trump.
[00:53] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[00:55] Bob Dobbs: Now we,
[00:58] Bob Dobbs: Innis our
[00:59] Bob Dobbs: 13th episode.
[01:01] Bob Dobbs: The first 12,
[01:02] Bob Dobbs: we wandered into looking at my charts,
[01:05] Bob Dobbs: the Dobbs formula chart and the Tiny Note chart,
[01:09] Bob Dobbs: which comes out of the
[01:11] Bob Dobbs: Bob Dobbs formula chart.
[01:14] Bob Dobbs: And Cameron suggested that we listen to his translation of what I've done up to this point,
[01:24] Bob Dobbs: what he thinks I've been doing with my charts.
[01:26] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[01:26] Bob Dobbs: Cameron?
[01:28] Cameron McEwen: Yes,
[01:28] Cameron McEwen: sir.
[01:28] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[01:31] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[01:31] Cameron McEwen: so I thought what I would do is sort of set out where I think we've been and where we may be heading.
[01:40] Cameron McEwen: That is to say,
[01:42] Cameron McEwen: we've been looking at your charts,
[01:44] Cameron McEwen: and now we're going on to the Tiny Note chart,
[01:48] Cameron McEwen: and we're sort of in between.
[01:50] Cameron McEwen: We're just getting ready to get into the Tiny Note chart.
[01:55] Cameron McEwen: And
[01:56] Cameron McEwen: I noticed at the extreme right bottom.
[02:00] Cameron McEwen: of the Tiny Note chart,
[02:03] Cameron McEwen: you refer to the formula chart and you refer to holeopathic Dawkins retrievals and holeopathic cliche probes and these
[02:16] Cameron McEwen: are things that are fairly familiar to our discussions from the formula chart discussed in previous weeks.
[02:27] Cameron McEwen: So my...
[02:29] Cameron McEwen: The thought is that in moving on to the Tiny Note chart,
[02:37] Cameron McEwen: we could kind of start from the bottom right.
[02:41] Cameron McEwen: Instead of starting from the very top,
[02:46] Cameron McEwen: we might start from the bottom right,
[02:49] Cameron McEwen: which ties back to the formula chart and understand how the bottom right kind of envelops the rest.
[02:59] Cameron McEwen: Now,
[02:59] Cameron McEwen: that's...
[03:00] Cameron McEwen: Suggestion could be completely wrong,
[03:04] Cameron McEwen: in which case you should reject it.
[03:08] Cameron McEwen: But I think the advantage of that is that it then brings some of the ideas from the formula chart that I liked into a way to appreciate the Tiny Note chart.
[03:24] Cameron McEwen: And what I took from the formula chart and what I liked.
[03:29] Cameron McEwen: is that number one,
[03:30] Cameron McEwen: it was an example of thinking,
[03:33] Cameron McEwen: right?
[03:34] Cameron McEwen: It was a mind engaged in shuffling ideas in attempt to try to come to grips with our crazy reality.
[03:50] Cameron McEwen: And it introduced ideas,
[03:55] Cameron McEwen: for example,
[03:56] Cameron McEwen: a kind of knot of...
[03:58] Cameron McEwen: time,
[03:59] Cameron McEwen: K-N-O-T,
[04:00] Cameron McEwen: of time,
[04:02] Cameron McEwen: that is helpful in trying to break with
[04:07] Cameron McEwen: Gutenberg thinking.
[04:10] Cameron McEwen: In the charts,
[04:13] Cameron McEwen: effects can come before causes.
[04:16] Cameron McEwen: Effects and causes can be knotted up together so that each can be before and after the other.
[04:24] Cameron McEwen: and these
[04:28] Cameron McEwen: notions of time and of cause and effect are additional ways of shuffling that I find interesting.
[04:40] Cameron McEwen: Another thing I find interesting is that the thinking is outside the box,
[04:46] Cameron McEwen: not only outside of academic thinking,
[04:49] Cameron McEwen: but outside of most other thinking on the planet in that you don't...
[04:57] Cameron McEwen: except beings.
[05:00] Cameron McEwen: as being obvious things that are either walking around as humans or as plants or as manufactured things.
[05:11] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[05:12] Cameron McEwen: the obvious groups of beings are thought to be sort of limited classifications and that thinking has to be able to...
[05:30] Cameron McEwen: shuffle our whole notion of what it means to be.
[05:35] Cameron McEwen: And I think that's also helpful.
[05:38] Cameron McEwen: And then the last thing I'd mention is that we agreed the last discussion that what's brought up in the charts isn't to be taken literally.
[05:53] Cameron McEwen: What's going on is thinking that starts
[05:59] Cameron McEwen: by being structural,
[06:01] Cameron McEwen: and that the important thing is to understand the structures that are being shuffled,
[06:08] Cameron McEwen: not to try to understand the meaning of a particular term or a particular name or something like that.
[06:16] Cameron McEwen: And when I look at the Tiny Note chart,
[06:19] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[06:20] Cameron McEwen: the most obvious thing about it is that it's impossible to say
[06:29] Cameron McEwen: the four or 20 or 100 things that are being mentioned,
[06:36] Cameron McEwen: because there's literally thousands of different things that's going on here,
[06:44] Cameron McEwen: and the need is to understand why it was that you thought it necessary.
[06:56] Cameron McEwen: to range over this enormous variety as a way of continuing on that thought that you were doing,
[07:07] Cameron McEwen: or that thinking,
[07:08] Cameron McEwen: I should say,
[07:09] Cameron McEwen: that you were doing in the charts.
[07:11] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[07:12] Cameron McEwen: So
[07:12] Cameron McEwen: I'll stop there and you correct and augment.
[07:17] Bob Dobbs: No,
[07:18] Bob Dobbs: what you said is perfect so far.
[07:20] Bob Dobbs: That's very good.
[07:21] Bob Dobbs: You understand what I've said so far.
[07:29] Bob Dobbs: To get to the bottom,
[07:31] Bob Dobbs: which I would say is the Dobbs quadrant,
[07:35] Bob Dobbs: and the important factor is the Rumpelstiltskin,
[07:39] Bob Dobbs: but I would like to introduce the chart with the direction of getting to the fifth quadrant and Rumpelstiltskin as soon as possible.
[07:50] Bob Dobbs: But I need to sort of lay out something here.
[07:55] Bob Dobbs: At the very top...
[07:57] Bob Dobbs: We've discussed a chain letter of phase shifts,
[08:02] Bob Dobbs: the top sentence or phrase,
[08:06] Bob Dobbs: and then the big sentence or title is Innis Bob's Tiny Note,
[08:10] Bob Dobbs: which equals the Grand Mizzou's Decad Dance,
[08:14] Bob Dobbs: Decad Dance or Decadence.
[08:17] Bob Dobbs: And then this chart is a visualization of a cyclotron of holeopathic cliche probes,
[08:24] Bob Dobbs: which I've explained previously.
[08:26] Bob Dobbs: And then...
[08:27] Bob Dobbs: Underneath that,
[08:28] Bob Dobbs: in the bracket,
[08:30] Bob Dobbs: two brackets,
[08:30] Bob Dobbs: it says causes merging with effects,
[08:33] Bob Dobbs: and causes are in quotes.
[08:35] Bob Dobbs: And that refers to the bottom of page 137 of Take Today,
[08:40] Bob Dobbs: the executive as dropout.
[08:42] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[08:42] Bob Dobbs: so then you come across four strange words,
[08:46] Bob Dobbs: right,
[08:46] Bob Dobbs: E,
[08:46] Bob Dobbs: Eloy,
[08:47] Bob Dobbs: to Lofty,
[08:48] Bob Dobbs: and then Bob.
[08:50] Bob Dobbs: So these indicate five columns.
[08:54] Bob Dobbs: Rhyee was a term channeled by Dave Worcester.
[08:58] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[08:58] Bob Dobbs: Dave Worcester channeled cosmic awareness from
[09:02] Bob Dobbs: 1967 to 1974.
[09:07] Bob Dobbs: And he announced that Rhyee,
[09:09] Bob Dobbs: an ancient something,
[09:12] Bob Dobbs: caused the first separateness.
[09:13] Bob Dobbs: And he would tell the story that being was on the plane of essence.
[09:22] Bob Dobbs: Not too many problems there.
[09:26] Bob Dobbs: So each rhythm of that plane of essence,
[09:31] Bob Dobbs: and these could come from traditional occult stuff like the theosophical ideas.
[09:39] Bob Dobbs: So the plane of essence was,
[09:42] Bob Dobbs: say,
[09:43] Bob Dobbs: red.
[09:45] Bob Dobbs: Then it would ripple and blue would take over from the red.
[09:50] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[09:53] Bob Dobbs: It might go to green.
[09:57] Bob Dobbs: and the blue would disappear.
[09:59] Bob Dobbs: But either from red to blue or blue to green,
[10:01] Bob Dobbs: just at some stage,
[10:04] Bob Dobbs: there'd be a little bit of the red that would not disappear.
[10:11] Bob Dobbs: As it moved into a blue,
[10:13] Bob Dobbs: I might say a medium,
[10:15] Bob Dobbs: a coloration,
[10:17] Bob Dobbs: the blue coloration fails to take over completely from the red.
[10:22] Bob Dobbs: So a judging action happens,
[10:26] Bob Dobbs: which he would say is...
[10:27] Bob Dobbs: a green would show up and the green would smash the red holdout and the plane of essence,
[10:39] Bob Dobbs: the majority of it had become blue.
[10:42] Bob Dobbs: It would object to green being uptight about red holding.
[10:49] Bob Dobbs: The blue gang was going to wait for the red,
[10:53] Bob Dobbs: but green was impatient and smashed the red.
[10:58] Bob Dobbs: So the blue gang,
[10:59] Bob Dobbs: the blue being,
[11:01] Bob Dobbs: chased green.
[11:03] Bob Dobbs: And green spiraled off and went down into densities of matter and ended up in what we would call...
[11:14] Bob Dobbs: It was creating each density as it was going.
[11:17] Bob Dobbs: So it gets to a point where it lodges itself in a density which we know as this physical plane.
[11:27] Bob Dobbs: Sort of like a bunker.
[11:28] Bob Dobbs: He's kind of like a Dr.
[11:29] Bob Dobbs: No in a James Bond movie,
[11:31] Bob Dobbs: you know.
[11:32] Bob Dobbs: He's a renegade.
[11:33] Bob Dobbs: Takes off,
[11:35] Bob Dobbs: and he has a secure bunker in a very dense material plane.
[11:40] Cameron McEwen: And when you say he,
[11:43] Cameron McEwen: are you talking about Green?
[11:45] Cameron McEwen: Are you talking about Bob?
[11:48] Cameron McEwen: Or who's the he?
[11:51] Bob Dobbs: It's not a human.
[11:54] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[11:54] Bob Dobbs: maybe a human.
[11:55] Bob Dobbs: It's Rhyee.
[11:57] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[11:57] Bob Dobbs: okay.
[11:58] Cameron McEwen: Okay,
[11:58] Cameron McEwen: all right.
[11:59] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[11:59] Bob Dobbs: I forgot to say the green spot that smashed the red and then took off and the blue chased it.
[12:07] Bob Dobbs: And then it ends up,
[12:08] Bob Dobbs: green ends up lodged in a physical dimension.
[12:11] Bob Dobbs: It is made maybe dense enough to protect itself,
[12:16] Bob Dobbs: to be isolated.
[12:18] Bob Dobbs: That's a separation from the general milieu of red shifting to blue.
[12:24] Bob Dobbs: shifting to yellow or green or any other color.
[12:29] Bob Dobbs: And that was called Rhyee.
[12:31] Bob Dobbs: So it was the first principality,
[12:33] Bob Dobbs: the first separateness,
[12:35] Bob Dobbs: the first judge.
[12:36] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[12:36] Bob Dobbs: this is how Dave Wersher would describe it.
[12:39] Bob Dobbs: And I met him in the late 60s,
[12:41] Bob Dobbs: and he told me this story.
[12:44] Cameron McEwen: A lot of this is very familiar from Gnostic speculation a couple thousand years ago.
[12:53] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[12:54] Bob Dobbs: So the
[12:56] Bob Dobbs: Blue Gang,
[12:57] Bob Dobbs: Blue
[12:57] Bob Dobbs: Milyu, decided to create a female,
[13:03] Bob Dobbs: so
[13:03] Bob Dobbs: Rhyee seems to be a male principle,
[13:05] Bob Dobbs: so a female principle was created,
[13:08] Bob Dobbs: Isis,
[13:09] Bob Dobbs: and it went down to the physical dimension and made an agreement with Rhyee to continue
[13:20] Bob Dobbs: Rhyee's creation.
[13:23] Bob Dobbs: his isolated dimension by creating children.
[13:27] Bob Dobbs: So the human species evolving or growing begins.
[13:35] Bob Dobbs: Now the plan was at some point,
[13:38] Bob Dobbs: Isis would attract
[13:40] Bob Dobbs: Rhyee to the plane of essence.
[13:43] Bob Dobbs: And this turned out to happen in the cosmic awareness cult or group out in Seattle.
[13:52] Bob Dobbs: Happened on January 22nd,
[13:55] Bob Dobbs: 1967 on one of the Hawaiian islands.
[14:05] Bob Dobbs: The first channel for Cosmic Awareness was a guy named Ralph Duby,
[14:10] Bob Dobbs: who had a very interesting history in the
[14:12] Bob Dobbs: 50s.
[14:13] Bob Dobbs: And he started channeling Cosmic Awareness in 62.
[14:19] Bob Dobbs: maybe as a way to get out of his cancer that he was growing.
[14:23] Bob Dobbs: And by 66,
[14:25] Bob Dobbs: he was sort of favoring the rich people in the cult in the supposed answers that Cosmic Awareness was giving to the group.
[14:35] Bob Dobbs: Dave Worcester noticed this.
[14:36] Bob Dobbs: He was a member of the group,
[14:37] Bob Dobbs: so he quit.
[14:38] Bob Dobbs: He didn't like that.
[14:39] Bob Dobbs: And Ralph,
[14:40] Bob Dobbs: he actually did a Pryde kind of thing.
[14:42] Bob Dobbs: He took off with the rich members of the cult to Hawaii.
[14:48] Bob Dobbs: And he hung out there for about a year,
[14:51] Bob Dobbs: but he ended up having these massive heart attacks on January
[14:54] Bob Dobbs: 21st, 1967.
[14:59] Bob Dobbs: The mythology that came out of that was
[15:03] Bob Dobbs: Ralph was channeling,
[15:05] Bob Dobbs: no,
[15:06] Bob Dobbs: was acting out,
[15:07] Bob Dobbs: miming the physical body and its principle of separateness.
[15:16] Bob Dobbs: And it's in returning,
[15:18] Bob Dobbs: or it's miming the return to the plane of essence,
[15:21] Bob Dobbs: no more separateness.
[15:23] Bob Dobbs: So the world had changed on January
[15:26] Bob Dobbs: 22nd.
[15:27] Bob Dobbs: 67.
[15:28] Bob Dobbs: And so the group that was still back in Seattle,
[15:35] Bob Dobbs: they started to miss the channelings of Cosmic Orange.
[15:38] Bob Dobbs: So they got
[15:39] Bob Dobbs: Dave Worcester to do it.
[15:40] Bob Dobbs: So he became the second channel.
[15:42] Bob Dobbs: So I never met
[15:43] Bob Dobbs: Ralph Duby,
[15:45] Bob Dobbs: but I did get to know Dave Worcester.
[15:48] Bob Dobbs: So the mythology was that Pryde,
[15:53] Bob Dobbs: when Pryde was still separate,
[15:54] Bob Dobbs: split up into four.
[15:57] Bob Dobbs: forces.
[15:58] Bob Dobbs: RIE is spelled Pryde,
[16:01] Bob Dobbs: but it broke up into
[16:04] Bob Dobbs: Eloy II,
[16:04] Bob Dobbs: Lofty,
[16:05] Bob Dobbs: and RIE,
[16:07] Bob Dobbs: R-A-I,
[16:08] Bob Dobbs: like Italian TV.
[16:10] Bob Dobbs: So RIE becomes RIE,
[16:15] Bob Dobbs: R-A-I,
[16:16] Bob Dobbs: Eloy II,
[16:17] Bob Dobbs: and Lofty.
[16:18] Bob Dobbs: So to show some kind of beginning metaphysical situation,
[16:23] Bob Dobbs: I started the chart with those four forces.
[16:27] Bob Dobbs: and then added myself.
[16:30] Bob Dobbs: So if you notice,
[16:32] Bob Dobbs: underneath
[16:34] Bob Dobbs: Rye, Eloy,
[16:35] Bob Dobbs: Too Lofty,
[16:35] Bob Dobbs: Bob,
[16:36] Bob Dobbs: the first thing you have horizontally are colors.
[16:39] Bob Dobbs: So there's implying the story that Dave Worcester tells.
[16:45] Bob Dobbs: But then I think...
[16:46] Cameron McEwen: And what's the...
[16:48] Cameron McEwen: Let me just ask,
[16:50] Cameron McEwen: what is the attraction to you,
[16:53] Cameron McEwen: to your thinking?
[16:55] Cameron McEwen: to your shuffling the deck all the time.
[16:58] Cameron McEwen: What's the attraction to you of this kind of origin story,
[17:07] Cameron McEwen: number one,
[17:08] Cameron McEwen: and number two,
[17:10] Cameron McEwen: the channeling that's going with it?
[17:14] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[17:14] Bob Dobbs: Dave Worser was the first psychic channel I met,
[17:18] Bob Dobbs: and I found him to be very intelligent.
[17:21] Bob Dobbs: And he had read McLuhan.
[17:23] Bob Dobbs: That was a big marker for me.
[17:25] Bob Dobbs: This was back in the late 60s.
[17:28] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan was sort of known,
[17:29] Bob Dobbs: but,
[17:30] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[17:30] Bob Dobbs: not by many people.
[17:32] Bob Dobbs: And when I brought up McLuhan,
[17:36] Bob Dobbs: he said,
[17:36] Bob Dobbs: yes,
[17:36] Bob Dobbs: he had read him.
[17:37] Bob Dobbs: And that,
[17:38] Bob Dobbs: for me,
[17:39] Bob Dobbs: made the person interesting.
[17:41] Bob Dobbs: So even though he did the channeling,
[17:43] Bob Dobbs: which was pretty interesting in itself,
[17:45] Bob Dobbs: I liked what it said.
[17:49] Bob Dobbs: It had a new kind of metaphysics.
[17:51] Bob Dobbs: They kind of rejected all the previous...
[17:53] Bob Dobbs: metaphysics and even offered development classes which were designed to undo the order of the golden dawn which Yeats was a member of and
[18:05] Bob Dobbs: Aleister Crowley more famously a member of you know 19th century spin off from Madame Blavatsky in the Theosophical Society but for some reason
[18:16] Bob Dobbs: Cosmo Warren said the principality the replay of Pryde that they were trying to set up you
[18:23] Bob Dobbs: or to continue the Prince of Rhyee had to be undone.
[18:26] Bob Dobbs: So that was pretty revolutionary to me.
[18:29] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[18:29] Bob Dobbs: they weren't trying to repeat an occult tradition.
[18:34] Bob Dobbs: They wanted to move it into what they called the new.
[18:40] Bob Dobbs: The Warners said,
[18:41] Bob Dobbs: okay,
[18:41] Bob Dobbs: we've got a new age coming,
[18:42] Bob Dobbs: and the emphasis is on new,
[18:45] Bob Dobbs: very new,
[18:46] Bob Dobbs: different from what you think new is,
[18:49] Bob Dobbs: new,
[18:49] Bob Dobbs: new,
[18:49] Bob Dobbs: new,
[18:49] Bob Dobbs: you know?
[18:51] Bob Dobbs: So Worcester had a really interesting mind.
[18:54] Bob Dobbs: He had been a draftsman for
[18:56] Bob Dobbs: NASA, so he worked on some of the early rockets or space vehicles.
[19:02] Bob Dobbs: He didn't know which one he was working on,
[19:04] Bob Dobbs: but he did that.
[19:05] Bob Dobbs: He also had an affair.
[19:08] Bob Dobbs: He was gay,
[19:09] Bob Dobbs: and he had an affair with
[19:12] Bob Dobbs: Tennessee
[19:13] Bob Dobbs: Williams down in New Orleans,
[19:16] Bob Dobbs: and actually in the gay community in New Orleans in the early,
[19:20] Bob Dobbs: middle
[19:21] Bob Dobbs: 50s.
[19:22] Bob Dobbs: He met Clay Shaw,
[19:23] Bob Dobbs: a really prime suspect in the JFK murder.
[19:27] Bob Dobbs: Do you know that name?
[19:29] Cameron McEwen: Yes,
[19:29] Cameron McEwen: I do.
[19:30] Bob Dobbs: So Dave Worcester,
[19:31] Bob Dobbs: he was the first person
[19:34] Bob Dobbs: I met who would watch the news,
[19:37] Bob Dobbs: and every few months he'd notice that something he'd been doing with his gay partner Vern,
[19:48] Bob Dobbs: Vern Christensen,
[19:49] Bob Dobbs: would show up in the media.
[19:52] Bob Dobbs: So he was the first person I ever met who saw himself reflected out there in the news,
[19:59] Bob Dobbs: not in a silly way.
[20:02] Bob Dobbs: Like,
[20:03] Bob Dobbs: they would coin,
[20:04] Bob Dobbs: I think they came up with some word like psychotherapy in the late 50s,
[20:10] Bob Dobbs: and then it started to be talked about out in the news world.
[20:15] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[20:15] Bob Dobbs: what was special about Dave Worcester is he's born in 1928.
[20:21] Bob Dobbs: Same year as Don Theall.
[20:22] Bob Dobbs: A lot of interesting people were born in 1928.
[20:25] Bob Dobbs: Girard Stern,
[20:25] Bob Dobbs: Andy Warhol.
[20:26] Bob Dobbs: Warhol is argued between 26 and
[20:29] Bob Dobbs: 28. Bo Jarrett was born in 1929.
[20:33] Bob Dobbs: The end of the 20s produced a lot of interesting characters.
[20:36] Bob Dobbs: And
[20:37] Bob Dobbs: Worcester, he met Bob Carr,
[20:40] Bob Dobbs: who was a young medium in
[20:43] Bob Dobbs: Seattle.
[20:44] Bob Dobbs: And then they got in touch with Captain Al Hubbard.
[20:48] Bob Dobbs: who was the Tim Leary of the
[20:50] Bob Dobbs: 50s. He was the only guy allowed,
[20:53] Bob Dobbs: and he had CIA connections,
[20:55] Bob Dobbs: British intelligence connections,
[20:57] Bob Dobbs: a mystery character.
[20:58] Bob Dobbs: He was the only guy allowed to have access to
[21:01] Bob Dobbs: Sandoz LSD and give it to people in North America.
[21:07] Bob Dobbs: So he was interested in what would happen if he got sensitive,
[21:10] Bob Dobbs: psychic,
[21:10] Bob Dobbs: or intelligent people on LSD,
[21:13] Bob Dobbs: not people that were ill,
[21:14] Bob Dobbs: which was the ostensible reason he used it for.
[21:17] Bob Dobbs: alcoholism or schizophrenia and different things in Saskatchewan you know both you know that story the clinic in Saskatchewan
[21:25] Cameron McEwen: Humphrey all right yeah vaguely you know I'm from Saskatchewan and I remember this from years ago but it's kind of gone out of my consciousness since then right okay so
[21:43] Bob Dobbs: just a minute
[21:47] Bob Dobbs: I had to sneeze.
[21:49] Bob Dobbs: So Humphrey Osmond was part of this
[21:52] Bob Dobbs: Captain Al Hubbard network.
[21:56] Bob Dobbs: Another guy,
[21:57] Bob Dobbs: I forget his name right now,
[21:58] Bob Dobbs: he created orthomolecular medicine later,
[22:02] Bob Dobbs: which Carolyn's on the board of.
[22:07] Bob Dobbs: Another sneeze.
[22:10] Bob Dobbs: So from 57 to 60,
[22:13] Bob Dobbs: Captain Al Hubbard lived up in
[22:15] Bob Dobbs: New Westminster,
[22:16] Bob Dobbs: I think.
[22:17] Bob Dobbs: British Columbia in that area and he would come down regularly and give
[22:22] Bob Dobbs: Dave versus group LSD and he would monitor what they did on these sessions so they were taking it intelligently and over three years they did about 150 trips and so Al Hubbard sort of made an inventory of what was going on with these people men
[22:41] Bob Dobbs: and women and did the Dalai Lama's brother
[22:47] Bob Dobbs: came across this group and was part of it for a short while,
[22:50] Bob Dobbs: in 59 or so.
[22:55] Bob Dobbs: So they had this intense experiment,
[22:58] Bob Dobbs: and they worked out what's called setting and the protocols to make the experience more harmonious.
[23:08] Bob Dobbs: And Tim Leary and those guys,
[23:10] Bob Dobbs: five,
[23:10] Bob Dobbs: seven years,
[23:11] Bob Dobbs: worked out the idea of settings,
[23:13] Bob Dobbs: not knowing about worse than them.
[23:16] Bob Dobbs: So that was an example of Worcester doing something,
[23:18] Bob Dobbs: and then it shows up and becomes a big phenomenon.
[23:22] Bob Dobbs: So this happened regularly with him,
[23:25] Bob Dobbs: it seemed to me.
[23:27] Bob Dobbs: So I kept that in mind,
[23:29] Bob Dobbs: and
[23:31] Bob Dobbs: I took the development courses.
[23:34] Bob Dobbs: There were 12 sessions.
[23:36] Bob Dobbs: At the 10th session,
[23:38] Bob Dobbs: Carolyn and I,
[23:39] Bob Dobbs: who were married.
[23:41] Bob Dobbs: No,
[23:41] Bob Dobbs: we weren't married at that point.
[23:42] Bob Dobbs: This was in 1969.
[23:45] Bob Dobbs: We decided,
[23:46] Bob Dobbs: well,
[23:46] Bob Dobbs: we don't want to be brought into a cult,
[23:49] Bob Dobbs: so we dropped out at session 10 and didn't do 11 and 12.
[23:54] Bob Dobbs: And Dave and them,
[23:56] Bob Dobbs: a little irritated,
[23:56] Bob Dobbs: but it was no big deal.
[23:58] Bob Dobbs: We remained friends,
[23:58] Bob Dobbs: and then we all traveled down to Los Angeles in March 1970,
[24:02] Bob Dobbs: and that's where I went to a Krishnamurti lecture.
[24:04] Bob Dobbs: You ever heard of him?
[24:05] Bob Dobbs: Did you do Krishnamurti?
[24:06] Bob Dobbs: Sure,
[24:07] Cameron McEwen: of course.
[24:08] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[24:08] Bob Dobbs: so I went to a lecture by him,
[24:11] Bob Dobbs: and he was talked a lot.
[24:14] Bob Dobbs: seriously by cosmic awareness.
[24:16] Bob Dobbs: So sort of,
[24:17] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[24:18] Bob Dobbs: part of the theme,
[24:20] Bob Dobbs: cosmic awareness seemed to experience Krishnamurti.
[24:23] Bob Dobbs: And you'll notice...
[24:25] Cameron McEwen: Sorry,
[24:25] Cameron McEwen: let me just interrupt for half a sec.
[24:29] Cameron McEwen: Weren't you more or less based in Nova Scotia around this time?
[24:34] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[24:35] Cameron McEwen: How are you going from one side of the continent to the other?
[24:39] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[24:39] Bob Dobbs: we...
[24:41] Bob Dobbs: When Carolyn and I hooked up in Dartmouth,
[24:43] Bob Dobbs: Halifax area in the late 50s,
[24:47] Bob Dobbs: we traveled all the time.
[24:49] Bob Dobbs: often hitchhiking.
[24:51] Bob Dobbs: It was a bit out of the way,
[24:53] Bob Dobbs: Dartmouth and Halifax,
[24:54] Bob Dobbs: and we had come from Paris,
[24:56] Bob Dobbs: so we needed a little more stimulation.
[24:59] Bob Dobbs: So we would visit all kinds of different organizations or things that we found out about.
[25:05] Bob Dobbs: So we visited Dave Worcester when we found out about him in 1969 in September.
[25:13] Bob Dobbs: And he greeted us,
[25:14] Bob Dobbs: and so we stayed there for eight months.
[25:19] Bob Dobbs: in Seattle and got involved and took the courses and met all these interesting people in Seattle.
[25:25] Bob Dobbs: They used to say that Seattle was a pretty cool city because it had the largest number of atheists of any city in the United States.
[25:35] Bob Dobbs: And these beatniks,
[25:36] Bob Dobbs: they liked it.
[25:37] Bob Dobbs: They were beatnik guys.
[25:39] Bob Dobbs: Dave Worcester in 1960,
[25:41] Bob Dobbs: after he did the three-year LSD situation,
[25:43] Bob Dobbs: he went down to San Francisco So...
[25:47] Bob Dobbs: with Ralph Duby and Vern,
[25:50] Bob Dobbs: and they ended up being close friends of Alan Watts,
[25:54] Bob Dobbs: who later,
[25:55] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[25:55] Bob Dobbs: visited McLuhan.
[25:56] Bob Dobbs: You know who he is,
[25:57] Bob Dobbs: right?
[25:58] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[25:59] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[25:59] Bob Dobbs: And Anton LaVey,
[26:01] Bob Dobbs: he was a younger guy,
[26:03] Bob Dobbs: the guy who started the Church of Satan a few years later.
[26:06] Bob Dobbs: He was a roommate of Worcester.
[26:08] Bob Dobbs: So they met these interesting characters in San Francisco for a few years.
[26:14] Bob Dobbs: Then they moved back up to Seattle in 62.
[26:17] Bob Dobbs: And
[26:18] Bob Dobbs: Dave left the draftsman world and became a jewel dealer,
[26:23] Bob Dobbs: I think it is.
[26:24] Bob Dobbs: No,
[26:24] Bob Dobbs: rare coins maybe,
[26:25] Bob Dobbs: dealer.
[26:26] Bob Dobbs: So they were always moving around and maybe being part of the homosexual underground culture,
[26:38] Bob Dobbs: but they were into metaphysics and stuff.
[26:42] Bob Dobbs: And
[26:43] Bob Dobbs: L. Ron Hubbard came to their...
[26:47] Bob Dobbs: they called the Center of Integration,
[26:50] Bob Dobbs: which went on from 57 to 60.
[26:52] Bob Dobbs: That's where they had the LSD.
[26:54] Bob Dobbs: He came and read some poetry with his clothes off.
[26:58] Bob Dobbs: So it was the beginning of the
[27:01] Bob Dobbs: New Age circuit that expanded to Esalen at Big Sur in California.
[27:09] Bob Dobbs: So Dave met and interacted with all kinds of people.
[27:12] Bob Dobbs: And I had met a lot of different people,
[27:14] Bob Dobbs: but not that network.
[27:16] Bob Dobbs: So I met a lot of them through Dave.
[27:19] Bob Dobbs: And
[27:21] Bob Dobbs: I enjoyed always being able to discuss McLuhan with him because McLuhan was,
[27:28] Bob Dobbs: to me,
[27:29] Bob Dobbs: the bigger of them all.
[27:31] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[27:31] Bob Dobbs: He just seemed more important.
[27:34] Bob Dobbs: So
[27:34] Bob Dobbs: I always brought up McLuhan with people to see what they said or introduce McLuhan to them.
[27:40] Bob Dobbs: So he had an interesting background.
[27:44] Bob Dobbs: He knew a lot of interesting people.
[27:46] Bob Dobbs: So he was my kind of person.
[27:48] Bob Dobbs: I was not homosexual,
[27:49] Bob Dobbs: so I didn't have any sex with him or anything,
[27:51] Bob Dobbs: but that didn't matter.
[27:55] Bob Dobbs: He was basically lived in his mind,
[27:57] Bob Dobbs: it seemed,
[27:58] Bob Dobbs: plus the channeling.
[28:01] Bob Dobbs: So as an obscure background to myself,
[28:09] Bob Dobbs: I put these quizzical terms in,
[28:11] Bob Dobbs: right?
[28:11] Bob Dobbs: Eloy too lofty.
[28:13] Bob Dobbs: And so I put...
[28:15] Bob Dobbs: the colors on the first horizontal row.
[28:18] Bob Dobbs: Then I put basic physics,
[28:21] Bob Dobbs: proton,
[28:21] Bob Dobbs: electron,
[28:22] Bob Dobbs: neutron.
[28:24] Bob Dobbs: Then
[28:25] Bob Dobbs: I did cosmic,
[28:27] Bob Dobbs: Cosmos stuff,
[28:29] Bob Dobbs: red,
[28:29] Bob Dobbs: giant,
[28:29] Bob Dobbs: white,
[28:30] Bob Dobbs: dwarf,
[28:30] Bob Dobbs: quasar,
[28:30] Bob Dobbs: pulsar.
[28:32] Bob Dobbs: Then I took five types of TV from
[28:36] Bob Dobbs: Arthur Kroker,
[28:37] Bob Dobbs: sacrificial TV,
[28:38] Bob Dobbs: crash TV,
[28:39] Bob Dobbs: disciplinary TV,
[28:41] Bob Dobbs: surveillance and instrumental TV.
[28:43] Bob Dobbs: Then from William Irwin Thompson,
[28:45] Bob Dobbs: I took elementals,
[28:46] Bob Dobbs: goblins,
[28:46] Bob Dobbs: fairies,
[28:47] Bob Dobbs: humans,
[28:47] Bob Dobbs: and angels from regular science.
[28:50] Bob Dobbs: But in
[28:53] Bob Dobbs: William Irwin Thompson books,
[28:56] Bob Dobbs: prokaryotic cells,
[28:58] Bob Dobbs: anaerobic bacteria,
[29:00] Bob Dobbs: cyanobacteria,
[29:01] Bob Dobbs: eukaryotic cells.
[29:01] Bob Dobbs: You see,
[29:02] Bob Dobbs: I'm going across the lines there,
[29:03] Bob Dobbs: right?
[29:05] Cameron McEwen: Yes,
[29:05] Cameron McEwen: sir.
[29:05] Bob Dobbs: And then from regular sort of more cosmos stuff.
[29:13] Bob Dobbs: electromagnetism,
[29:14] Bob Dobbs: gluon,
[29:14] Bob Dobbs: boson,
[29:15] Bob Dobbs: graviton,
[29:16] Bob Dobbs: wormhole slash X particle,
[29:18] Bob Dobbs: and then music,
[29:19] Bob Dobbs: bass,
[29:20] Bob Dobbs: guitar,
[29:20] Bob Dobbs: drummer,
[29:21] Bob Dobbs: organ,
[29:21] Bob Dobbs: vocals,
[29:22] Bob Dobbs: and then platonic geometry,
[29:26] Bob Dobbs: the platonic solid,
[29:27] Bob Dobbs: circle,
[29:27] Bob Dobbs: hyperbola,
[29:28] Bob Dobbs: ellipse,
[29:29] Bob Dobbs: parabola,
[29:30] Bob Dobbs: cone slash torus,
[29:32] Bob Dobbs: and then from McLuhan,
[29:33] Bob Dobbs: front spin,
[29:34] Bob Dobbs: back spin,
[29:35] Bob Dobbs: retrieval,
[29:35] Bob Dobbs: chiasmus,
[29:36] Bob Dobbs: melody.
[29:37] Bob Dobbs: So that was an odd way to write.
[29:41] Bob Dobbs: the tetrad,
[29:43] Bob Dobbs: right?
[29:48] Bob Dobbs: So those were...
[29:49] Bob Dobbs: I wanted to have as much of the universe,
[29:51] Bob Dobbs: so to speak,
[29:53] Bob Dobbs: or human creativity in that area.
[29:58] Bob Dobbs: But then you have,
[30:00] Bob Dobbs: that's sort of like first nature.
[30:03] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[30:03] Bob Dobbs: It's like stuff we didn't make,
[30:06] Bob Dobbs: even though I do have musical instruments in there.
[30:08] Bob Dobbs: But I'm looking at what the book of nature,
[30:11] Bob Dobbs: you could say,
[30:12] Bob Dobbs: right?
[30:13] Bob Dobbs: And I'm looking at modern terms.
[30:15] Bob Dobbs: But a little strange too,
[30:17] Bob Dobbs: I had these five colors.
[30:19] Bob Dobbs: part of the initiative.
[30:23] Cameron McEwen: The impetus seems to be that in origin,
[30:35] Cameron McEwen: there is structure.
[30:36] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[30:37] Cameron McEwen: And the structure that you're working with here is a five-fold structure that at least
[30:51] Cameron McEwen: off the top of my head,
[30:52] Cameron McEwen: especially from the line that goes molecule,
[30:55] Cameron McEwen: proton,
[30:56] Cameron McEwen: electron,
[30:56] Cameron McEwen: neutron,
[30:57] Cameron McEwen: atom.
[30:59] Cameron McEwen: It seems that there's three primary components and then two subsidiary components.
[31:11] Cameron McEwen: So it looks like the idea is that structure is basic,
[31:18] Cameron McEwen: triadic structure.
[31:19] Cameron McEwen: is basic and then some sort of pentic development from the triadic structure is sort of the next in line right did you say pentic yeah
[31:36] Bob Dobbs: yeah PEN TIC so as you if you look down now just you scan down the chart you see holeopathic radio in the left
[31:46] Bob Dobbs: title position of the first quadrant,
[31:49] Bob Dobbs: holeopathic radio slash satellite,
[31:51] Bob Dobbs: holeopathic television slash satellite,
[31:53] Bob Dobbs: holeopathic computer slash satellite,
[31:55] Bob Dobbs: holeopathic satellite squared,
[31:58] Bob Dobbs: and then Anthropomorphic Physical.
[32:02] Bob Dobbs: There's five parts,
[32:03] Bob Dobbs: five areas,
[32:04] Bob Dobbs: but I call them quadrants.
[32:06] Bob Dobbs: So I would mix up the four and the five because I had learned that in alchemy,
[32:13] Bob Dobbs: the West favored four and Asia favored five.
[32:16] Bob Dobbs: So I kept it blurred.
[32:18] Bob Dobbs: Do you see what I'm saying?
[32:19] Bob Dobbs: I kept it not determined,
[32:23] Bob Dobbs: not exact.
[32:24] Bob Dobbs: It's four,
[32:25] Bob Dobbs: it's five parts,
[32:26] Bob Dobbs: but I called them quadrants.
[32:29] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[32:30] Bob Dobbs: that's because the fifth level,
[32:32] Bob Dobbs: Anthropomorphic Physical and physical,
[32:33] Bob Dobbs: the Dobbs quadrant,
[32:35] Bob Dobbs: subsumed the first four.
[32:38] Bob Dobbs: So there's still four,
[32:40] Bob Dobbs: but something's being organized from the fifth level.
[32:43] Bob Dobbs: So you could say that is a quadrant.
[32:47] Bob Dobbs: whatever the fifth word would be,
[32:49] Bob Dobbs: thank you quadrant,
[32:50] Bob Dobbs: thank you rant.
[32:52] Bob Dobbs: No,
[32:54] Bob Dobbs: pentagram.
[32:56] Bob Dobbs: Anyways,
[32:57] Bob Dobbs: it merged and it didn't.
[32:59] Bob Dobbs: So it had a tactile relationship to the first four.
[33:04] Bob Dobbs: And so that is why in the bottom right corner,
[33:08] Bob Dobbs: the ratios of the charts is what's going on here.
[33:12] Bob Dobbs: So if you get involved with the content of the Tiny Note Chart,
[33:16] Bob Dobbs: You might...
[33:17] Bob Dobbs: forget that it came out of the formula chart.
[33:20] Bob Dobbs: So I wanted to remind one of the interplay between the charts.
[33:28] Bob Dobbs: And so because
[33:31] Bob Dobbs: Rumpelstiltskin is a mythic character or folk character,
[33:35] Bob Dobbs: what was the main point about him?
[33:38] Bob Dobbs: If you didn't know his name,
[33:40] Bob Dobbs: he was free to rule the roost or cause Cayce or do all kinds of things.
[33:46] Bob Dobbs: Once you named him,
[33:48] Bob Dobbs: knew his name,
[33:50] Bob Dobbs: you controlled him.
[33:52] Bob Dobbs: And I remember McLuhan once saying,
[33:54] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[33:54] Bob Dobbs: you control things by naming them.
[33:56] Bob Dobbs: He said something like that.
[33:58] Bob Dobbs: Naming helps you to control it.
[34:00] Bob Dobbs: So,
[34:02] Bob Dobbs: I'm presenting a picture of the Android Meme,
[34:06] Bob Dobbs: and it's not understood.
[34:09] Bob Dobbs: Nobody knows how to name it correctly,
[34:12] Bob Dobbs: so it's a Rumpelstiltskin atmosphere.
[34:16] Bob Dobbs: Rumpelstiltskin aspect or replay or archetype and my chart is showing you how to name the Android Meme but it's not just nominalism you name the name you've got to understand its structure and knowing that is part of your naming of it so
[34:35] Bob Dobbs: that's why that is the most important action down in the right-hand corner and note it
[34:42] Bob Dobbs: It covers the range of the Android Meme,
[34:44] Bob Dobbs: 1960 to 1990.
[34:48] Bob Dobbs: It was the whole chart.
[34:50] Cameron McEwen: So it's the idea of poetry that
[34:58] Cameron McEwen: Eliot was developing in the teens and
[35:02] Cameron McEwen: 20s, and that
[35:04] Cameron McEwen: Richards and
[35:06] Cameron McEwen: Empson and McLuhan were trying to figure out how it worked in the
[35:16] Cameron McEwen: 30s and 40s.
[35:18] Cameron McEwen: You could say that what the
[35:23] Cameron McEwen: Cambridge English School was trying to do was figure out the name for this poetry,
[35:31] Cameron McEwen: but that the name was not something singular,
[35:36] Cameron McEwen: was not a label.
[35:38] Cameron McEwen: It was inherently structural and inherently riven.
[35:45] Bob Dobbs: What did you say?
[35:46] Bob Dobbs: Riven?
[35:47] Bob Dobbs: R-I-V-E-N?
[35:48] Cameron McEwen: Riven.
[35:49] Cameron McEwen: Riven,
[35:49] Cameron McEwen: as in gapped.
[35:51] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[35:51] Bob Dobbs: gaps.
[35:52] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[35:53] Bob Dobbs: No,
[35:53] Bob Dobbs: exactly.
[35:55] Bob Dobbs: And,
[35:55] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[35:55] Bob Dobbs: you can see the influence of McLuhan here in my thinking about it.
[36:00] Bob Dobbs: So,
[36:03] Bob Dobbs: what was I going to say with the naming process?
[36:14] Bob Dobbs: This is a...
[36:15] Bob Dobbs: Flat,
[36:16] Bob Dobbs: plain,
[36:17] Bob Dobbs: flat piece of paper.
[36:19] Bob Dobbs: I would hand it out as a piece of paper.
[36:22] Bob Dobbs: And there's a bit of me explaining it to my buddies in
[36:26] Bob Dobbs: L.A. and looking at the long piece of paper and going through its structure.
[36:34] Bob Dobbs: But you were to realize this is so far off from what we're actually dealing with.
[36:41] Bob Dobbs: You simplify it to a page,
[36:43] Bob Dobbs: it's ridiculous.
[36:45] Bob Dobbs: So he had to recognize the bias in the presentation,
[36:48] Bob Dobbs: but it was showing a process that we're living in.
[36:53] Bob Dobbs: And
[36:56] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan liked to point out that the first Adam just named the animals,
[37:02] Bob Dobbs: but the second Adam,
[37:04] Bob Dobbs: after being booted out of the,
[37:07] Bob Dobbs: whatever that was,
[37:08] Bob Dobbs: paradise,
[37:08] Bob Dobbs: the Garden of Eden,
[37:10] Bob Dobbs: then the second Adam had the power to create their own establishment.
[37:14] Bob Dobbs: And I would call that technology in second nature.
[37:19] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan and Berry and Nevitt used to talk about first nature and second nature.
[37:22] Bob Dobbs: So we're looking at second nature here and how it's evolved and also including the naming aspect of the first atom.
[37:37] Bob Dobbs: I mean,
[37:38] Bob Dobbs: the second atom created by naming,
[37:41] Bob Dobbs: created anti-environment.
[37:44] Bob Dobbs: So,
[37:44] Bob Dobbs: and that would include gesture.
[37:45] Bob Dobbs: So
[37:47] Bob Dobbs: I'm presenting,
[37:48] Bob Dobbs: and this is where your chemistry point is relevant.
[37:52] Bob Dobbs: I was saying that science and its understanding of matter was really limited because I looked at these media anti-environment as new aspects of matter.
[38:03] Bob Dobbs: So it was way more complex how to do science or to do alchemy that nobody had really spelled out other than McLuhan started it.
[38:14] Bob Dobbs: Because in his book,
[38:15] Bob Dobbs: Understanding Media,
[38:16] Bob Dobbs: he's like Aristotle.
[38:17] Bob Dobbs: He classifies the elements of the new situation.
[38:22] Bob Dobbs: It's a classificatory.
[38:24] Bob Dobbs: And
[38:26] Bob Dobbs: I thought that had to be updated.
[38:29] Bob Dobbs: So
[38:30] Bob Dobbs: I will explain the structure that we're up against.
[38:37] Bob Dobbs: So the first five at the top,
[38:40] Bob Dobbs: I'm including the...
[38:44] Bob Dobbs: The purpose is to show the physics,
[38:47] Bob Dobbs: the cosmos,
[38:48] Bob Dobbs: and the subatomic,
[38:50] Bob Dobbs: but it's more complicated than traditional knowledge up to that point.
[38:54] Bob Dobbs: So it's very ambitious what I was trying to do.
[38:57] Bob Dobbs: You get that?
[39:01] Cameron McEwen: I do.
[39:01] Cameron McEwen: You know,
[39:04] Cameron McEwen: I don't know that it was an innovation.
[39:09] Cameron McEwen: I think this...
[39:13] Cameron McEwen: People have tried to figure out this sort of stuff sort of forever.
[39:22] Cameron McEwen: You may have arrived at stuff that is truly new at some point,
[39:29] Cameron McEwen: but
[39:30] Cameron McEwen: I see this as ways that people have tried to figure out the relationship.
[39:42] Cameron McEwen: between what was in the beginning and what is now forever.
[39:49] Bob Dobbs: But I brought in,
[39:51] Bob Dobbs: one wouldn't even recognize that that was what I was doing if I didn't tell them,
[39:57] Bob Dobbs: all right?
[39:58] Bob Dobbs: Because the words are so,
[40:01] Bob Dobbs: what's holeopathic radio satellite?
[40:03] Bob Dobbs: What's that?
[40:04] Bob Dobbs: Is that a factor in matter?
[40:06] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[40:06] Bob Dobbs: so it was obscure.
[40:13] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[40:14] Cameron McEwen: Let me just go back to the poetry point for a minute.
[40:17] Cameron McEwen: When
[40:18] Cameron McEwen: Eliot was writing Wasteland,
[40:22] Cameron McEwen: let's say,
[40:22] Cameron McEwen: in the early
[40:24] Cameron McEwen: 20s, and thinking about what was going on in poetry,
[40:30] Cameron McEwen: his whole effort could be called naming.
[40:32] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[40:36] Cameron McEwen: The whole of the Wasteland could be seen as a kind of naming.
[40:42] Cameron McEwen: In the wasteland,
[40:44] Cameron McEwen: like your chart,
[40:46] Cameron McEwen: brings in all sorts of stuff from long ago and most recent and from popular culture and high culture and science,
[40:56] Cameron McEwen: all this sort of stuff,
[40:57] Cameron McEwen: right?
[40:57] Cameron McEwen: So there's an effort of naming going on that regards naming as something very complex and that has to range over everything that is in a way.
[41:10] Cameron McEwen: And then when
[41:12] Cameron McEwen: Richard, who was a close friend of mine,
[41:15] Cameron McEwen: friend of Eliot is trying to say what's going on with this poetry,
[41:22] Cameron McEwen: his criticism,
[41:24] Cameron McEwen: the new criticism,
[41:25] Cameron McEwen: could be taken to be just another kind of naming.
[41:32] Cameron McEwen: There's naming at different levels,
[41:34] Cameron McEwen: you could say,
[41:36] Cameron McEwen: and it's not clear how those levels interrelate,
[41:40] Cameron McEwen: but they are different kinds of
[41:44] Cameron McEwen: processes of naming that are trying to solve the riddle yeah the Trump Gilson riddle right exactly so
[41:59] Bob Dobbs: I'm going to have
[42:00] Bob Dobbs: LaRouche stuff LaRouche knowledge or what he wrote Innis I'm going to have McLuhan knowledge I'm going to have
[42:07] Bob Dobbs: William Irwin Thompson and Arthur Kroker and my own eccentric knowledge
[42:12] Bob Dobbs: some of it coming from cosmic awareness,
[42:14] Bob Dobbs: and then the second medium,
[42:16] Bob Dobbs: Michael
[42:17] Bob Dobbs: Blake Read,
[42:18] Bob Dobbs: channeled the evergreens,
[42:20] Bob Dobbs: and they were pretty fantastic.
[42:22] Bob Dobbs: So
[42:23] Bob Dobbs: I'm bringing that aspect,
[42:25] Bob Dobbs: but no one else that we know of generally,
[42:29] Bob Dobbs: well,
[42:30] Bob Dobbs: we say,
[42:31] Bob Dobbs: I mean,
[42:31] Bob Dobbs: Yeats certainly engaged the mediumistic,
[42:37] Bob Dobbs: but...
[42:40] Bob Dobbs: Nobody told people they were doing it.
[42:42] Bob Dobbs: I would talk about it on the radio.
[42:44] Bob Dobbs: I would have Dave Worcester on in the 80s in Toronto and interview him,
[42:49] Bob Dobbs: talk about this stuff.
[42:50] Bob Dobbs: And then
[42:52] Bob Dobbs: I would have the
[42:54] Bob Dobbs: Michael Blake Read's channelings.
[42:56] Bob Dobbs: When Marshall McLuhan passed on,
[43:01] Bob Dobbs: after a few years,
[43:02] Bob Dobbs: I started having conversations with him,
[43:03] Bob Dobbs: and I would play them on the radio.
[43:05] Bob Dobbs: So that was a new way of presenting.
[43:08] Bob Dobbs: an esoteric activity.
[43:10] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[43:11] Bob Dobbs: I wasn't worried about my reputation or anything.
[43:14] Bob Dobbs: I wasn't in academia,
[43:17] Bob Dobbs: but I wanted to stretch people's ideas of sources of information,
[43:23] Bob Dobbs: because the Eremenes were,
[43:26] Bob Dobbs: anybody listened to them would say,
[43:27] Bob Dobbs: wow,
[43:27] Bob Dobbs: that's intelligent.
[43:29] Bob Dobbs: Whatever that is,
[43:30] Bob Dobbs: it's very intelligent,
[43:32] Bob Dobbs: and they could do science in detail better than any other New Age mediums.
[43:38] Bob Dobbs: So they were used by the
[43:40] Bob Dobbs: CIA and the State Department.
[43:42] Bob Dobbs: There's a whole bunch of background story about them.
[43:45] Bob Dobbs: So we'll call that odd knowledge.
[43:50] Bob Dobbs: Like you take the trivium and the quadrivium,
[43:55] Bob Dobbs: you could fit LaRouche as dialectics,
[43:56] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan as rhetoric,
[43:58] Bob Dobbs: Thompson as grammar,
[44:00] Bob Dobbs: Kroker as Marxist.
[44:02] Bob Dobbs: But anyway,
[44:02] Bob Dobbs: you could put the seven arts in there.
[44:04] Bob Dobbs: But then I would add the occult.
[44:07] Bob Dobbs: And,
[44:07] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[44:08] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan points out that grammar was alchemical,
[44:11] Bob Dobbs: which could be considered a cult,
[44:12] Bob Dobbs: but actually talking to spirits and that stuff was the eighth division that I added to the seven arts.
[44:21] Bob Dobbs: And then I also added the ninth art,
[44:24] Bob Dobbs: which is people often,
[44:26] Bob Dobbs: if they're lucky,
[44:27] Bob Dobbs: they meet somebody who's charismatic or something,
[44:32] Bob Dobbs: and they have a very special relationship,
[44:33] Bob Dobbs: and they get mentored by that person.
[44:37] Bob Dobbs: In some way.
[44:37] Bob Dobbs: So I added that as another part of education.
[44:43] Bob Dobbs: Trivium and quadrivium.
[44:45] Bob Dobbs: And then you form a group,
[44:47] Bob Dobbs: which I called a club.
[44:49] Bob Dobbs: And so the 10th aspect of education was a society or group you formed.
[44:55] Bob Dobbs: It didn't have to be a cult or anything.
[44:57] Bob Dobbs: And so mine was called Club 22.
[45:01] Bob Dobbs: Because 22,
[45:02] Bob Dobbs: when I did McLuhan archives in
[45:05] Bob Dobbs: November, December
[45:08] Bob Dobbs: 1981, a year after he had died,
[45:12] Bob Dobbs: I had to go through 60 boxes of clippings and articles and that.
[45:16] Bob Dobbs: Mrs.
[45:17] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan and
[45:18] Bob Dobbs: Mady Molinaro wanted to know what decades did these articles apply to?
[45:25] Bob Dobbs: Were they maybe positioned?
[45:28] Bob Dobbs: Because I knew
[45:28] Bob Dobbs: Marshall's work very well,
[45:30] Bob Dobbs: I could figure out which decade these things belonged in.
[45:34] Cameron McEwen: I'm like the archivists in Ottawa.
[45:41] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[45:41] Bob Dobbs: you have to hand it to Philip Marchand.
[45:43] Bob Dobbs: He did the archives,
[45:45] Bob Dobbs: and he got a book out of it.
[45:46] Bob Dobbs: Boy,
[45:46] Bob Dobbs: that was pretty smart.
[45:48] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[45:49] Bob Dobbs: He made notes.
[45:50] Cameron McEwen: And a good book.
[45:52] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[45:53] Bob Dobbs: a fun book,
[45:54] Bob Dobbs: interesting book,
[45:57] Bob Dobbs: good introductory book.
[45:59] Bob Dobbs: But what was I saying?
[46:00] Bob Dobbs: So when I first got the
[46:04] Bob Dobbs: 60 boxes,
[46:05] Bob Dobbs: I was going through them.
[46:06] Bob Dobbs: I got the box 22,
[46:08] Bob Dobbs: and I found a folder that had my name on it.
[46:11] Bob Dobbs: It said Bob Dobbs,
[46:12] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan archivist.
[46:14] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[46:14] Bob Dobbs: I never knew that I was that,
[46:17] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[46:17] Bob Dobbs: when Marshall was alive.
[46:19] Bob Dobbs: So I opened it up,
[46:20] Bob Dobbs: and what was there was a Xerox of the bibliography that made that little beige book.
[46:28] Bob Dobbs: It was red first.
[46:30] Bob Dobbs: The Bibliography of McLuhan.
[46:32] Bob Dobbs: Did you ever have a copy of that?
[46:34] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[46:34] Cameron McEwen: I think so.
[46:35] Cameron McEwen: The one that was done in Florida?
[46:36] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[46:37] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[46:38] Bob Dobbs: And,
[46:39] Bob Dobbs: um...
[46:40] Bob Dobbs: What was his name?
[46:41] Bob Dobbs: Robert Bob Hillman or something?
[46:43] Bob Dobbs: Bob Hildell?
[46:45] Bob Dobbs: Anyways,
[46:46] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[46:46] Bob Dobbs: he's a good friend of McLuhan and he made a booklet.
[46:48] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[46:49] Bob Dobbs: in 75,
[46:50] Bob Dobbs: 76,
[46:50] Bob Dobbs: when they were organizing it,
[46:53] Bob Dobbs: I was a friend of Marge Stewart,
[46:55] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan secretary,
[46:56] Bob Dobbs: and so she gave me the Xerox of the pages before they became a book.
[47:02] Bob Dobbs: So
[47:03] Bob Dobbs: I went around Toronto and all the libraries and that and found stuff and had my own little inventory.
[47:10] Bob Dobbs: Then the book came out in 77,
[47:13] Bob Dobbs: or I got it from 75,
[47:15] Bob Dobbs: but not until 77.
[47:17] Bob Dobbs: So I had that.
[47:18] Bob Dobbs: And in 78 or so,
[47:25] Bob Dobbs: George Thompson asked me one day,
[47:28] Bob Dobbs: can we see what you have?
[47:31] Bob Dobbs: And I said,
[47:31] Bob Dobbs: okay,
[47:31] Bob Dobbs: I'll make a Xerox of the Xerox things that I got from Marge Stewart,
[47:36] Bob Dobbs: of the whole,
[47:37] Bob Dobbs: generally the whole book.
[47:38] Bob Dobbs: And so I gave him a copy of my xerography with all the things that I had checked off.
[47:46] Bob Dobbs: So that was that.
[47:48] Bob Dobbs: I gave him a copy.
[47:49] Bob Dobbs: So then
[47:50] Bob Dobbs: I, you know,
[47:52] Bob Dobbs: a couple years later,
[47:53] Bob Dobbs: three years later,
[47:54] Bob Dobbs: I'm going through the box,
[47:55] Bob Dobbs: and there's a file folder that they put my copy I gave them of the bibliography in a file folder and called me McLuhan Archivist.
[48:04] Bob Dobbs: So from that point on,
[48:06] Bob Dobbs: I called myself a McLuhan Archivist.
[48:08] Bob Dobbs: I always pointed out it wasn't official,
[48:10] Bob Dobbs: I didn't get paid,
[48:12] Bob Dobbs: but with that bibliography I was able to really build up my collection.
[48:20] Bob Dobbs: So I had the biggest archives until the library archives was formed in Ottawa in 1984 or so.
[48:31] Bob Dobbs: So why am I saying that?
[48:35] Cameron McEwen: I think you were getting to the number 22.
[48:38] Cameron McEwen: Oh,
[48:38] Bob Dobbs: just the fact that I was McLuhan,
[48:39] Bob Dobbs: how I became McLuhan Archivist.
[48:43] Bob Dobbs: I was named that.
[48:47] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[48:47] Bob Dobbs: and it was box 22.
[48:50] Bob Dobbs: That's the point.
[48:51] Bob Dobbs: It was box 22,
[48:53] Bob Dobbs: and Ms.
[48:53] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan drove me home,
[48:54] Bob Dobbs: and I lived at 22 Kenwood,
[48:56] Bob Dobbs: and I said,
[48:56] Bob Dobbs: oh,
[48:57] Bob Dobbs: 22 again.
[48:58] Bob Dobbs: And then the next couple days,
[49:00] Bob Dobbs: I noticed 22 in my life.
[49:02] Bob Dobbs: I'd always added up numbers.
[49:05] Bob Dobbs: The first pattern I noticed when I was a kid was that any number multiplied by nine,
[49:11] Bob Dobbs: the sum adds up to nine,
[49:14] Bob Dobbs: right?
[49:15] Bob Dobbs: So
[49:16] Bob Dobbs: I think that started me looking at numbers.
[49:18] Bob Dobbs: So I would notice my birth certificate added up to nine,
[49:22] Bob Dobbs: my wedding date added up to nine,
[49:25] Bob Dobbs: I mean 22.
[49:26] Bob Dobbs: And so 22 riddled my life a lot.
[49:30] Bob Dobbs: So I mentioned this to a Toronto poet named Ian Arlett.
[49:35] Bob Dobbs: That was that.
[49:37] Bob Dobbs: We didn't talk about it anymore other than that one time.
[49:39] Bob Dobbs: And I was probably telling him this story about how I was in Box 22.
[49:44] Bob Dobbs: So six months later,
[49:45] Bob Dobbs: he comes back,
[49:46] Bob Dobbs: and because he's a poet,
[49:47] Bob Dobbs: he always had a notebook and was writing down ideas and stuff for his poetry.
[49:52] Bob Dobbs: He hands me his notebook,
[49:54] Bob Dobbs: and it has newspaper clippings.
[49:56] Bob Dobbs: It's bulging.
[49:57] Bob Dobbs: Newspaper clippings and articles and notes and jottings by himself.
[50:02] Bob Dobbs: riddled with 22 showing up everywhere.
[50:06] Bob Dobbs: And he says,
[50:06] Bob Dobbs: man,
[50:06] Bob Dobbs: I started noticing these 22 and it became so numerous,
[50:11] Bob Dobbs: it was driving me nuts.
[50:12] Bob Dobbs: So you take this notebook.
[50:15] Bob Dobbs: I don't want it.
[50:16] Bob Dobbs: So he gave it to me.
[50:18] Bob Dobbs: So
[50:19] Bob Dobbs: I developed the 22 thing more and more.
[50:22] Bob Dobbs: And so when I,
[50:24] Bob Dobbs: around the time,
[50:25] Bob Dobbs: just before I got on the radio,
[50:26] Bob Dobbs: I'd met Nelson Thal and James Kidney and Ian was part of this and a few others.
[50:32] Bob Dobbs: We would talk about McLuhan and all these things,
[50:34] Bob Dobbs: and I was listening to May Brussel recordings and Lynn LaRouche stuff and Dr.
[50:39] Bob Dobbs: Beter.
[50:40] Bob Dobbs: So that whole activity,
[50:42] Bob Dobbs: the salon,
[50:43] Bob Dobbs: we called Club 22.
[50:46] Cameron McEwen: This is early
[50:48] Cameron McEwen: 80s. Yep,
[50:49] Bob Dobbs: yep.
[50:49] Bob Dobbs: It started in 82.
[50:52] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[50:52] Bob Dobbs: the box was discovered in late 81.
[50:55] Bob Dobbs: So then sometime halfway through 82,
[50:58] Bob Dobbs: Ian gives me his notebook.
[51:01] Bob Dobbs: And then I noticed it.
[51:02] Bob Dobbs: And then in 83,
[51:03] Bob Dobbs: I met Nelson Thal and James Kidney,
[51:05] Bob Dobbs: who was a Toronto actor.
[51:07] Bob Dobbs: And he was playing,
[51:10] Bob Dobbs: he did a play on Lee Harvey Oswald with Amanda Plummer.
[51:18] Bob Dobbs: Maybe she was Christopher Plummer's daughter.
[51:22] Bob Dobbs: He just passed away the other day,
[51:24] Bob Dobbs: right?
[51:24] Bob Dobbs: Christopher Plummer.
[51:26] Cameron McEwen: He did have a daughter that was an actress.
[51:28] Cameron McEwen: I know that.
[51:29] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[51:30] Bob Dobbs: And so it was about a relationship between Lee and Marina.
[51:33] Bob Dobbs: And I had the Tyrwhitt document,
[51:35] Bob Dobbs: which was the best x-ray of the
[51:39] Bob Dobbs: Kennedy assassination at that time that made Brussels always recommended.
[51:42] Bob Dobbs: She lived out in Carmel,
[51:43] Bob Dobbs: California.
[51:45] Bob Dobbs: And so
[51:48] Bob Dobbs: James was a patient of Carolyn and told her about the
[51:53] Bob Dobbs: Kennedy play she was doing.
[51:54] Bob Dobbs: And she said,
[51:55] Bob Dobbs: oh,
[51:55] Bob Dobbs: you've got to meet my husband.
[51:56] Bob Dobbs: So her office was in the first floor.
[51:58] Bob Dobbs: for 22 Kenwood so he came upstairs we met and we became friends over him reading the Tyrwhitt document and getting a more conspiratorial view of the Lee Harvey Oswald character so that helped him but he had not heard of McLuhan and
[52:15] Bob Dobbs: I played him some recordings of McLuhan and he said wow that that's the best voice I've ever heard as an actor or a public speaker so he became as an actor
[52:25] Bob Dobbs: developing his voice in that.
[52:27] Bob Dobbs: He was very intrigued by McLuhan on the voice level.
[52:31] Bob Dobbs: And then I met Nelson around that time,
[52:34] Bob Dobbs: and we just took off really talking about McLuhan.
[52:38] Bob Dobbs: And then I ended up on the radio,
[52:40] Bob Dobbs: and they came on the radio with me for a special we did.
[52:46] Cameron McEwen: At that time,
[52:47] Cameron McEwen: did you know about Joyce and 22?
[52:53] Bob Dobbs: I knew about Robert N.
[52:54] Bob Dobbs: Tom Wilson in 23,
[52:58] Bob Dobbs: but 22,
[53:00] Bob Dobbs: I noticed 22 would show up in his writings,
[53:02] Bob Dobbs: but also
[53:05] Bob Dobbs: October 8th,
[53:07] Bob Dobbs: 04,
[53:09] Bob Dobbs: I think he was 22 when he left
[53:12] Bob Dobbs: Dublin. Maybe,
[53:14] Cameron McEwen: but he was born on 22.
[53:18] Bob Dobbs: No,
[53:20] Bob Dobbs: yes,
[53:20] Bob Dobbs: February 2nd,
[53:21] Bob Dobbs: my birthday.
[53:22] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[53:23] Bob Dobbs: I knew that part of 22,
[53:25] Bob Dobbs: yes.
[53:27] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[53:27] Bob Dobbs: And born in 1882,
[53:31] Bob Dobbs: and then he had the copy of Ulysses was given to him on his birthday,
[53:35] Bob Dobbs: February 2nd,
[53:35] Bob Dobbs: 1922.
[53:37] Bob Dobbs: And also,
[53:38] Bob Dobbs: that was,
[53:40] Bob Dobbs: Eliot called it the
[53:42] Bob Dobbs: Annus Mirabilis,
[53:43] Bob Dobbs: the miraculous year.
[53:45] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[53:46] Bob Dobbs: so much happened in that year,
[53:48] Bob Dobbs: beginning with the finding of the Tutankhamen.
[53:51] Bob Dobbs: Egyptian treasures or mummy and all that stuff,
[53:55] Bob Dobbs: that had an influence on a lot of people,
[53:57] Bob Dobbs: including Elliot and Lewis and Joyce and probably Yates and Pound.
[54:03] Bob Dobbs: So,
[54:03] Bob Dobbs: yes,
[54:03] Bob Dobbs: I knew 22 was all around Joyce,
[54:06] Bob Dobbs: but I didn't know if he noticed it.
[54:10] Bob Dobbs: Do you know anything about that?
[54:11] Bob Dobbs: Did he talk about 22?
[54:14] Cameron McEwen: Not that I know of,
[54:16] Cameron McEwen: but it would be very strange if...
[54:21] Cameron McEwen: Finnegans Wake,
[54:22] Cameron McEwen: it doesn't occur somewhere.
[54:24] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[54:24] Bob Dobbs: there is a 22 here and there in Finnegans Wake.
[54:29] Bob Dobbs: But some people say,
[54:30] Bob Dobbs: well,
[54:30] Bob Dobbs: that's the Kabbalah.
[54:31] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[54:33] Bob Dobbs: And McLuhan said you need to know the Kabbalah to get around in the wake,
[54:37] Bob Dobbs: the signatures of the Kabbalah.
[54:38] Bob Dobbs: So
[54:40] Bob Dobbs: Joyce certainly knew the occult part of 22.
[54:43] Bob Dobbs: But the synchronicity part,
[54:45] Bob Dobbs: did he see that?
[54:46] Bob Dobbs: I don't know.
[54:48] Bob Dobbs: So
[54:51] Bob Dobbs: I'm explaining the
[54:58] Cameron McEwen: 22. You were talking about the structure of the Tiny Note chart,
[55:03] Cameron McEwen: and you got over to 22 somehow.
[55:06] Cameron McEwen: I'm not quite sure.
[55:07] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[55:07] Cameron McEwen: 22 is in the chart,
[55:09] Cameron McEwen: but you weren't at that point.
[55:11] Bob Dobbs: I was explaining how I added to the trivium and how I got club 22.
[55:17] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[55:17] Bob Dobbs: So where Club 22 came from.
[55:21] Bob Dobbs: So,
[55:23] Bob Dobbs: okay,
[55:24] Bob Dobbs: so back to the chart.
[55:27] Bob Dobbs: I wrote an essay called Up the Orphic Anti in 1995 and
[55:35] Bob Dobbs: Part 2,
[55:35] Bob Dobbs: Silencing the Virtually Solar Theater.
[55:39] Bob Dobbs: So you had the global theater and then I added the solar theater.
[55:44] Bob Dobbs: I had an insight.
[55:44] Bob Dobbs: site in 1990-91 after Pons and Fleischman had announced the cold fusion technology they had discovered and invented out in
[55:58] Bob Dobbs: Utah. Did you ever hear about them?
[56:00] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[56:01] Bob Dobbs: of course.
[56:01] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[56:02] Bob Dobbs: So they became a cause to lab,
[56:04] Bob Dobbs: and a lot of people were trying to get them funding,
[56:07] Bob Dobbs: and they got funding,
[56:08] Bob Dobbs: but they also became exiled from the physics.
[56:13] Bob Dobbs: community or the chemistry community that they were in.
[56:16] Bob Dobbs: And so I followed that closely,
[56:21] Bob Dobbs: and
[56:22] Bob Dobbs: I started thinking about how cold fusion was frictionless,
[56:27] Bob Dobbs: as they presented it,
[56:28] Bob Dobbs: it was frictionless energy.
[56:31] Bob Dobbs: And
[56:33] Bob Dobbs: I decided that the satellite merged first and second nature.
[56:40] Bob Dobbs: You could,
[56:41] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan took the idea from Bucke.
[56:43] Bob Dobbs: fuller that the satellite was an extension of our terrestrial environment.
[56:47] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[56:48] Bob Dobbs: you could go out there into hostile space and remain alive by this little encapsulated Anti-environment that you took with you.
[56:59] Bob Dobbs: So
[57:00] Bob Dobbs: I was thinking about cold fusion with frictionless and the merging of first and second nature represented by the satellite created this idea in me that that.
[57:13] Bob Dobbs: we were merging into a new situation and the the proscenium arch that McLuhan said the global theater caused by the satellite ring around the planet beginning with Sputnik what
[57:31] Bob Dobbs: is that echo do you know what that is you hear that it's no I can't hear okay it's just a little maybe it's because of the other phone I have anyways
[57:45] Bob Dobbs: So
[57:47] Bob Dobbs: I decided that the global theater with the satellites creating a percent of the marriage and the theater,
[57:52] Bob Dobbs: that's McClellan's idea,
[57:55] Bob Dobbs: in effect made people live in a hologram.
[58:00] Bob Dobbs: The world was a hologram or anti-environment that the hologram would show up as a technology,
[58:08] Bob Dobbs: but the effects of it were already here.
[58:11] Bob Dobbs: And so...
[58:13] Bob Dobbs: As we moved into the digital area,
[58:15] Bob Dobbs: the hologram created by satellites and the communication matrix that it created would get tinier and tinier.
[58:26] Bob Dobbs: The hologram would go through the holeopathic process and shrink.
[58:32] Bob Dobbs: So that process of shrinking was part of how I understood MIHR.
[58:40] Bob Dobbs: Remember?
[58:41] Bob Dobbs: explain the mirror device that Carolyn was using?
[58:43] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[58:44] Bob Dobbs: So I remember mirror,
[58:46] Bob Dobbs: this technology is what I'm trying to figure.
[58:49] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[58:50] Bob Dobbs: this is a new effect on matter,
[58:54] Bob Dobbs: the combination of the four parts.
[58:56] Bob Dobbs: So there's something new about matter that it evokes.
[59:00] Bob Dobbs: And so
[59:01] Bob Dobbs: I extrapolated it into a satellite effect.
[59:06] Bob Dobbs: Remember,
[59:06] Bob Dobbs: the holeopathic effect potentizes herbs.
[59:12] Bob Dobbs: But I'm saying that the global hologram is tetrad,
[59:16] Bob Dobbs: is made holeopathic,
[59:19] Bob Dobbs: but it's a hologram.
[59:20] Bob Dobbs: So I put the two words together and came out with holeopathic.
[59:23] Bob Dobbs: So the chart is showing what happened anti-environment after McLuhan final extension,
[59:32] Bob Dobbs: the satellite,
[59:33] Bob Dobbs: which was an extension of the planet.
[59:35] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[59:35] Bob Dobbs: So what were we extending after that?
[59:38] Bob Dobbs: After that was the digital extension of machines.
[59:41] Bob Dobbs: by machines,
[59:42] Bob Dobbs: not our faculties,
[59:44] Bob Dobbs: unless you said there was some digital aspect in our central nervous system or something.
[59:49] Bob Dobbs: But generally,
[59:51] Bob Dobbs: the extensions of...
[59:53] Bob Dobbs: of the digital era,
[59:55] Bob Dobbs: people didn't understand them.
[59:56] Bob Dobbs: They could see that a book was an extension of the eye,
[59:59] Bob Dobbs: but what was being extended with the increasing virtual anti-environment we were living in?
[1:00:05] Bob Dobbs: So I renamed them holeopathic,
[1:00:08] Bob Dobbs: that process.
[1:00:10] Bob Dobbs: So it would use as its content the analog media.
[1:00:16] Bob Dobbs: So you would have a holeopathic process done on the radio effect.
[1:00:21] Bob Dobbs: Then the TV effect,
[1:00:24] Bob Dobbs: or the TV qualities,
[1:00:26] Bob Dobbs: and then the computer qualities will be holiopathized.
[1:00:30] Bob Dobbs: And then the process itself will be squared.
[1:00:33] Bob Dobbs: And that's when you'd get the Android Meme technology coming alive and doing strange things to us and going inside us.
[1:00:45] Bob Dobbs: So that's the division.
[1:00:48] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:00:48] Bob Dobbs: so on the left you've got Holeopathic Radio Satellite.
[1:00:52] Bob Dobbs: It's always slash satellite because that and the holograms coming out of the satellite effect,
[1:00:58] Bob Dobbs: the anti-environment.
[1:01:00] Bob Dobbs: So you have the Global Theater,
[1:01:02] Bob Dobbs: it's doing something to radio,
[1:01:04] Bob Dobbs: it's doing something to television and computer,
[1:01:07] Bob Dobbs: and then squaring itself and becoming a new species.
[1:01:10] Bob Dobbs: And all the time humans are trying to figure out if there's any human left.
[1:01:15] Bob Dobbs: So they would project...
[1:01:16] Bob Dobbs: human qualities into it,
[1:01:18] Bob Dobbs: and so I called that the Anthropomorphic Physical.
[1:01:21] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:01:21] Bob Dobbs: over on the far right column was the timings and dates of the phases,
[1:01:28] Bob Dobbs: and also ratios of the radio era,
[1:01:33] Bob Dobbs: and then the TV era.
[1:01:34] Bob Dobbs: They had different ratios,
[1:01:38] Bob Dobbs: different senses extended,
[1:01:40] Bob Dobbs: but now it's ratios of sensory qualities that are being homeopathized.
[1:01:47] Bob Dobbs: You see how it's going a bit beyond McLuhan?
[1:01:50] Bob Dobbs: We weren't extending senses.
[1:01:52] Bob Dobbs: We were extending sensory ratios that were going into a strange interior landscape that mirror this technology represented for me.
[1:02:04] Bob Dobbs: And the whole process...
[1:02:06] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:02:06] Bob Dobbs: go ahead.
[1:02:08] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:02:10] Cameron McEwen: as you go through this stuff,
[1:02:13] Cameron McEwen: I see some tensions between...
[1:02:17] Cameron McEwen: what's literal and what's not literal,
[1:02:21] Cameron McEwen: and what is put forward in an experimental sense,
[1:02:27] Cameron McEwen: and what's taken as a conclusion.
[1:02:30] Cameron McEwen: And I see both of those as problematic in themselves,
[1:02:38] Cameron McEwen: but also problematic when the time consideration is introduced.
[1:02:44] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:02:44] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[1:02:45] Cameron McEwen: So maybe you could talk a little bit about how you regard those tensions in regards to your chart.
[1:02:59] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:03:00] Bob Dobbs: So there's a couple of McLuhan points.
[1:03:02] Bob Dobbs: History ends in 1945.
[1:03:06] Bob Dobbs: The telegraph quoting Ty Chardin that McLuhan quoted is a biological event.
[1:03:12] Bob Dobbs: So these different dramatic aspects.
[1:03:14] Bob Dobbs: of the
[1:03:15] Bob Dobbs: Marconi Galaxy coming into the
[1:03:17] Bob Dobbs: Gutenberg Galaxy and the Gutenberg Galaxy's products.
[1:03:21] Bob Dobbs: So
[1:03:22] Bob Dobbs: I'm going to have what we call analog media going through phases with the ground being the digital,
[1:03:33] Bob Dobbs: digital technologies.
[1:03:34] Bob Dobbs: So I'm saying that digital technology is anti-environment from 1960 to 1990.
[1:03:42] Bob Dobbs: You can read a history of...
[1:03:43] Bob Dobbs: MIT and the early scientists and what they were making in the late 50s and early
[1:03:49] Bob Dobbs: 60s, right?
[1:03:51] Bob Dobbs: They began to make the digital world.
[1:03:56] Bob Dobbs: Cybernetics.
[1:03:58] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:03:58] Bob Dobbs: And a key point was in 1969,
[1:04:03] Bob Dobbs: first week of September of 69,
[1:04:05] Bob Dobbs: when they hooked up the first two computers in
[1:04:09] Bob Dobbs: UCLA.
[1:04:13] Bob Dobbs: Maybe Utah.
[1:04:14] Cameron McEwen: Berkeley,
[1:04:15] Bob Dobbs: I think.
[1:04:15] Bob Dobbs: Beg your pardon?
[1:04:16] Cameron McEwen: I think it was Berkeley.
[1:04:17] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:04:18] Bob Dobbs: might have been Berkeley.
[1:04:19] Bob Dobbs: And then a month later,
[1:04:21] Bob Dobbs: they added another one.
[1:04:22] Bob Dobbs: That might have been in
[1:04:24] Bob Dobbs: Utah. And then another one in November.
[1:04:28] Bob Dobbs: And then they,
[1:04:28] Bob Dobbs: eventually,
[1:04:29] Bob Dobbs: I think they got to MIT in
[1:04:32] Bob Dobbs: December. So that began the creating of the spider's web,
[1:04:38] Bob Dobbs: of the matrix,
[1:04:40] Bob Dobbs: and all these.
[1:04:40] Bob Dobbs: popular images we have of something we're being enfolded in.
[1:04:45] Bob Dobbs: That's partly why
[1:04:48] Bob Dobbs: I used the RIE point,
[1:04:49] Bob Dobbs: because Cosmic Awareness said that after
[1:04:54] Bob Dobbs: Ralph Duby died on January
[1:04:56] Bob Dobbs: 22nd,
[1:04:58] Bob Dobbs: 67. Rye had returned to the plane of essence,
[1:05:03] Bob Dobbs: but there were still the cobwebs of Rye.
[1:05:07] Bob Dobbs: So later,
[1:05:07] Bob Dobbs: when string theory came up,
[1:05:10] Bob Dobbs: I decided that the strings were almost holding on a scientific concept.
[1:05:20] Bob Dobbs: with McLuhan in mind that we were living pure percept and concept couldn't keep up with it so the scientists were trying to keep up and so they developed a string theory which wasn't your normal science based on laboratory experiments it was just a speculation of
[1:05:39] Bob Dobbs: musical strings kind of thing so I said okay there in the quantum physics they were taking Newton's visual space and
[1:05:50] Bob Dobbs: organizing that and sense-making some changes to it with the quantum revolution in the
[1:05:56] Bob Dobbs: 20s.
[1:05:57] Bob Dobbs: But they had to drop the visual background completely by our time,
[1:06:04] Bob Dobbs: say the
[1:06:05] Bob Dobbs: 90s, and so they went to acoustic.
[1:06:08] Bob Dobbs: They had to use the acoustic vibrations as part of matter or the structural elements of matter.
[1:06:16] Bob Dobbs: So
[1:06:17] Bob Dobbs: I thought that was the cobwebs of Rhyee.
[1:06:20] Bob Dobbs: See what I'm saying?
[1:06:21] Bob Dobbs: String theory.
[1:06:22] Cameron McEwen: And I make that metaphor.
[1:06:24] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:06:25] Cameron McEwen: you're saying that strings can be taken as musical strings,
[1:06:30] Cameron McEwen: therefore acoustic,
[1:06:33] Cameron McEwen: and that that acoustic can then be used as a structural representation of anything rather than the visual.
[1:06:47] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[1:06:48] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[1:06:49] Cameron McEwen: And.
[1:06:49] Cameron McEwen: Furthermore,
[1:06:50] Cameron McEwen: you're saying that just like string theory works through multiple dimensions,
[1:07:00] Cameron McEwen: you're saying that there's a hologram effect that can be understood working through multiple dimensions as well.
[1:07:13] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[1:07:14] Bob Dobbs: and this enters into the popular consciousness.
[1:07:16] Bob Dobbs: There are all kinds of books about the world as a hologram,
[1:07:19] Bob Dobbs: and people started saying it was a quantum society,
[1:07:22] Bob Dobbs: or we're all a part of a hologram.
[1:07:25] Bob Dobbs: So that became part of the popular imagery in the 80s and 90s.
[1:07:29] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:07:29] Bob Dobbs: what I was thinking as a new scientist,
[1:07:32] Bob Dobbs: I said the next ground will be tactility.
[1:07:36] Bob Dobbs: So,
[1:07:36] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:07:37] Bob Dobbs: you had visual space,
[1:07:38] Bob Dobbs: acoustic space,
[1:07:39] Bob Dobbs: and tactile.
[1:07:40] Bob Dobbs: So I'm trying to show...
[1:07:42] Bob Dobbs: the tactile qualities of this new matter.
[1:07:47] Bob Dobbs: I mean there is tactility in our brains or in our sensory nervous system but the extension of it is affecting matter and that's where I was laying out a new scientific theory,
[1:08:00] Bob Dobbs: another ambitious thing you know.
[1:08:04] Bob Dobbs: But if they could make up stuff in the string theory world then I could enter the game and make stuff up.
[1:08:12] Bob Dobbs: And,
[1:08:12] Bob Dobbs: of course,
[1:08:12] Bob Dobbs: always having
[1:08:15] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan new nature and the new science in mind.
[1:08:18] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[1:08:20] Bob Dobbs: Sure.
[1:08:20] Bob Dobbs: Trying to develop that.
[1:08:22] Bob Dobbs: So the strings,
[1:08:26] Bob Dobbs: the resonances were holeopathic radio satellite,
[1:08:29] Bob Dobbs: holeopathic television satellite,
[1:08:31] Bob Dobbs: holeopathic computer,
[1:08:32] Bob Dobbs: holeopathic satellite squared,
[1:08:34] Bob Dobbs: all within me as an Anthropomorphic Physical phenomenon trying to...
[1:08:40] Bob Dobbs: see if there's anything Anthropomorphic Physical our world.
[1:08:45] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:08:46] Bob Dobbs: Still carrying on that enterprise.
[1:08:48] Bob Dobbs: So that's how the five quadrants reflect the five columns at the top.
[1:08:58] Bob Dobbs: So that orange is LaRouche,
[1:09:01] Bob Dobbs: and I'll explain how I get LaRouche.
[1:09:03] Bob Dobbs: Eloy is McLuhan.
[1:09:05] Bob Dobbs: Two,
[1:09:06] Bob Dobbs: TU,
[1:09:06] Bob Dobbs: is...
[1:09:07] Bob Dobbs: Thompson,
[1:09:07] Bob Dobbs: Lofty is Kroker,
[1:09:08] Bob Dobbs: and Bob is Anthropomorphic Physical.
[1:09:11] Bob Dobbs: So why do,
[1:09:12] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:09:13] Bob Dobbs: we've got a whole hepatic radio satellite,
[1:09:15] Bob Dobbs: and now I'm going to use all kinds of phenomena that make up matter in our new merger of first and second nature,
[1:09:23] Bob Dobbs: but I also have to include the cyborg aspect,
[1:09:27] Bob Dobbs: the Postman,
[1:09:28] Bob Dobbs: or the human merging with the machine.
[1:09:31] Bob Dobbs: And McLuhan says in 1950 we have total fusion,
[1:09:34] Bob Dobbs: and it's going to get more and more.
[1:09:36] Bob Dobbs: intense.
[1:09:38] Bob Dobbs: So I'm developing the fusion aspect.
[1:09:40] Bob Dobbs: So with LaRouche,
[1:09:43] Bob Dobbs: it is his intellectual product that becomes part of the era of the Holeopathic Radio Satellite.
[1:09:51] Bob Dobbs: But he's replaying Ezra Pound.
[1:09:55] Bob Dobbs: So each quadrant is actually in the analog phase.
[1:10:02] Bob Dobbs: The major people are Ezra Pound,
[1:10:04] Bob Dobbs: Wyndham Lewis,
[1:10:05] Bob Dobbs: T.S.
[1:10:05] Bob Dobbs: Eliot,
[1:10:07] Bob Dobbs: William Butler Yates,
[1:10:08] Bob Dobbs: and James Joyce.
[1:10:09] Bob Dobbs: And since the Android Meme is a replay of analog human life,
[1:10:15] Bob Dobbs: what did you say?
[1:10:18] Bob Dobbs: I didn't say anything.
[1:10:19] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[1:10:19] Bob Dobbs: just heard a sound.
[1:10:20] Bob Dobbs: So the Android Meme is a replay of the developments.
[1:10:24] Bob Dobbs: up to 1945,
[1:10:28] Bob Dobbs: then LaRouche is just a replay of
[1:10:31] Bob Dobbs: Ezra Pound.
[1:10:32] Bob Dobbs: And if you read Cantos,
[1:10:34] Bob Dobbs: it's incredible.
[1:10:36] Bob Dobbs: All the historical elements and personalities that
[1:10:41] Bob Dobbs: Ezra Pound highlights around the theme that usury is bad,
[1:10:46] Bob Dobbs: and he looks for civilizations or cultures that weren't built on usury to get better art.
[1:10:54] Bob Dobbs: better beauty,
[1:10:55] Bob Dobbs: they're the exact same elements,
[1:10:59] Bob Dobbs: personal,
[1:11:01] Bob Dobbs: historical figures that LaRouche uses.
[1:11:05] Bob Dobbs: So
[1:11:06] Bob Dobbs: I was reading LaRouche at the same time I was reading Cantos in the 80s,
[1:11:09] Bob Dobbs: and I said,
[1:11:10] Bob Dobbs: wow,
[1:11:11] Bob Dobbs: he's talking about the battle with the first presidents,
[1:11:16] Bob Dobbs: the Hamiltonian versus the Jeffersonian.
[1:11:22] Bob Dobbs: Pound has that going on.
[1:11:24] Bob Dobbs: in the cantos and LaRouche Burroughs it,
[1:11:26] Bob Dobbs: not aware of Pound at all.
[1:11:29] Bob Dobbs: And then they go back to the Italian Renaissance and ancient Greece,
[1:11:34] Bob Dobbs: all these periods of so-called,
[1:11:36] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:11:36] Bob Dobbs: renaissances that
[1:11:39] Bob Dobbs: Ezra Pound features in the cantos are featured in LaRouche.
[1:11:43] Bob Dobbs: So I thought that was an interesting point.
[1:11:45] Bob Dobbs: Most people didn't like LaRouche.
[1:11:47] Bob Dobbs: They didn't want to understand him.
[1:11:49] Bob Dobbs: They thought he was a fascist or something silly.
[1:11:53] Bob Dobbs: They didn't respect his mind,
[1:11:55] Bob Dobbs: so they weren't thinking about him,
[1:11:56] Bob Dobbs: but I was the first one to see that
[1:11:59] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan, that
[1:12:02] Bob Dobbs: Pound was a,
[1:12:03] Bob Dobbs: LaRouche was a replay of Pound.
[1:12:06] Bob Dobbs: You see what I'm saying?
[1:12:08] Bob Dobbs: So,
[1:12:10] Bob Dobbs: Pound,
[1:12:11] Bob Dobbs: okay,
[1:12:13] Bob Dobbs: what's here?
[1:12:15] Bob Dobbs: Second.
[1:12:19] Bob Dobbs: Pound.
[1:12:21] Bob Dobbs: He was born in 1922,
[1:12:23] Bob Dobbs: and he just died a year or two ago,
[1:12:25] Bob Dobbs: but he's a 1922 person.
[1:12:28] Bob Dobbs: And as a...
[1:12:29] Cameron McEwen: He wasn't born in...
[1:12:31] Cameron McEwen: maybe LaRouche was born in...
[1:12:33] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[1:12:33] Bob Dobbs: sorry,
[1:12:33] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[1:12:34] Bob Dobbs: No,
[1:12:34] Bob Dobbs: Lynn LaRouche,
[1:12:34] Bob Dobbs: born in 1922.
[1:12:37] Bob Dobbs: And Mae Brussel was born in 1922,
[1:12:40] Bob Dobbs: and she's the other person in the LaRouche or radio quadrant.
[1:12:44] Bob Dobbs: I wanted to put a woman in there somewhere,
[1:12:45] Bob Dobbs: so I picked Mae Brussel.
[1:12:48] Bob Dobbs: So,
[1:12:50] Bob Dobbs: LaRouche is...
[1:12:50] Bob Dobbs: dealing with the McCarthy era.
[1:12:53] Bob Dobbs: And people think that he was a McCarthy kind of figure in American politics.
[1:12:58] Bob Dobbs: He was always running for president.
[1:13:00] Bob Dobbs: So he is 1947 to 57,
[1:13:05] Bob Dobbs: that sensibility,
[1:13:07] Bob Dobbs: the radio era.
[1:13:09] Bob Dobbs: And it crystallizes in 1960,
[1:13:11] Bob Dobbs: but he's actually a replay of 1840 to 1900,
[1:13:20] Bob Dobbs: the world that influenced...
[1:13:20] Bob Dobbs: pound.
[1:13:22] Bob Dobbs: So you have the radio satellite,
[1:13:25] Bob Dobbs: the effects preceding causes,
[1:13:27] Bob Dobbs: so radio technology is intuited in the science of the
[1:13:31] Bob Dobbs: 19th century,
[1:13:32] Bob Dobbs: 1840 to 1900.
[1:13:34] Bob Dobbs: LaRouche is the human cyborg of that era,
[1:13:39] Bob Dobbs: so he begins to surface in 1960 and he represents 47 to 57,
[1:13:45] Bob Dobbs: which is a crystallization of the McCarthy era.
[1:13:50] Bob Dobbs: when the McCarthy people went into panic mode under maybe TV conditions and replayed the politics of the 19th century and the,
[1:14:01] Bob Dobbs: you could say,
[1:14:01] Bob Dobbs: the anti-communism,
[1:14:03] Bob Dobbs: the anti-Semitism and all those factors that were prominent in the 19th century.
[1:14:09] Bob Dobbs: So you see what I'm laying out here?
[1:14:11] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:14:12] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[1:14:13] Cameron McEwen: I see in some senses,
[1:14:16] Cameron McEwen: but I don't see...
[1:14:18] Cameron McEwen: in the most important sense,
[1:14:19] Cameron McEwen: and that is that
[1:14:23] Cameron McEwen: I understand the connections,
[1:14:29] Cameron McEwen: which are often tactile connections that you're talking about,
[1:14:33] Cameron McEwen: but I don't see the point.
[1:14:35] Cameron McEwen: I don't see what it is that you're trying to get at through this intellectual...
[1:14:50] Cameron McEwen: effort to penetrate things.
[1:14:56] Cameron McEwen: When you look back and you see all of this work,
[1:15:01] Cameron McEwen: which
[1:15:02] Cameron McEwen: I'm sure you regard as being updated and renewed later on,
[1:15:11] Cameron McEwen: what is it that you're trying to do through this process?
[1:15:15] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:15:15] Bob Dobbs: in the Dobbs chart,
[1:15:16] Bob Dobbs: remember I was showing the interactions and evolutions and retrievals and flip points of technologies.
[1:15:24] Cameron McEwen: Sure.
[1:15:25] Bob Dobbs: This is...
[1:15:25] Bob Dobbs: is more the realm of culture and ideas,
[1:15:29] Bob Dobbs: and they as products of their different media grounds.
[1:15:35] Cameron McEwen: Right,
[1:15:35] Cameron McEwen: and I understand a lot,
[1:15:36] Cameron McEwen: but let me put it another way.
[1:15:39] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[1:15:40] Cameron McEwen: you could understand what you just said as you doing history.
[1:15:45] Cameron McEwen: It's Bob doing history in a new way,
[1:15:48] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:15:49] Cameron McEwen: But I don't think,
[1:15:50] Cameron McEwen: maybe
[1:15:51] Cameron McEwen: I'm wrong,
[1:15:51] Cameron McEwen: but I don't think history is uh...
[1:15:55] Cameron McEwen: you know,
[1:15:56] Cameron McEwen: what you want to do.
[1:15:57] Cameron McEwen: I think you want to do something else,
[1:15:59] Cameron McEwen: but I don't know what that something else is.
[1:16:01] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[1:16:02] Bob Dobbs: I'm trying to show how
[1:16:04] Bob Dobbs: MIHR came about and the contributions by people and media in eras going back to 1840 to the miracle of MIHR.
[1:16:17] Bob Dobbs: So I'm explaining how technologies feed on each other and there are different...
[1:16:23] Bob Dobbs: aspects of each area in psychology and sociology and in art and music.
[1:16:30] Bob Dobbs: I wanted to show the complex of each phase and how their qualities pointed to a great integration and a new kind of science that represented MIHR.
[1:16:44] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:16:45] Bob Dobbs: it turned out
[1:16:46] Bob Dobbs: MIHR was puny compared to what I was really pointing at and I didn't know.
[1:16:51] Bob Dobbs: Because when ION showed up in 2009,
[1:16:54] Bob Dobbs: that was what I unconsciously was anticipating.
[1:16:59] Bob Dobbs: And so at the very bottom,
[1:17:01] Bob Dobbs: we have the statement,
[1:17:05] Bob Dobbs: waiting for organic bodies.
[1:17:12] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[1:17:12] Bob Dobbs: this whole process,
[1:17:13] Bob Dobbs: 150 years,
[1:17:14] Bob Dobbs: is waiting for something to happen with our bodies.
[1:17:19] Bob Dobbs: The spinning clothing crystal.
[1:17:21] Bob Dobbs: have danced the hex advertisement.
[1:17:24] Bob Dobbs: So each quadrant is a spinning crystal.
[1:17:28] Bob Dobbs: It's a medium,
[1:17:29] Bob Dobbs: and I'm using McLuhan clothing metaphor.
[1:17:32] Bob Dobbs: And they're interacting,
[1:17:34] Bob Dobbs: dancing and juggling.
[1:17:36] Bob Dobbs: And the Android Meme,
[1:17:38] Bob Dobbs: like the satellite,
[1:17:40] Bob Dobbs: anticipated cold fusion.
[1:17:42] Bob Dobbs: But the Android Meme and its fusion and tactility is anticipating the products and the phenomenon of ion.
[1:17:52] Bob Dobbs: But I did not know that in 1995.
[1:17:57] Bob Dobbs: Mirror was the best thing I had for a model.
[1:18:01] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[1:18:01] Cameron McEwen: So this might be a portrait of an artist as a young man,
[1:18:08] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:18:09] Cameron McEwen: You're setting out here without maybe knowing it entirely.
[1:18:20] Cameron McEwen: You're setting out the education of
[1:18:23] Cameron McEwen: Bob Dobbs to this period here.
[1:18:29] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[1:18:30] Bob Dobbs: but I would say
[1:18:32] Bob Dobbs: I was a figure for the education of humans and humanity,
[1:18:37] Bob Dobbs: what was happening to us.
[1:18:40] Bob Dobbs: I certainly didn't.
[1:18:42] Bob Dobbs: I thought that I was lucky in finding the thinkers and art forms that indicated what was happening.
[1:18:50] Bob Dobbs: Because
[1:18:51] Bob Dobbs: Joyce,
[1:18:52] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan, all of them,
[1:18:53] Bob Dobbs: all these names,
[1:18:54] Bob Dobbs: those people,
[1:18:55] Bob Dobbs: they all thought they were pointing to a new something that was being created,
[1:19:00] Bob Dobbs: a new spirit,
[1:19:01] Bob Dobbs: a new matter.
[1:19:02] Bob Dobbs: And so in that tradition,
[1:19:06] Bob Dobbs: I thought I was seeing further than they had seen.
[1:19:12] Bob Dobbs: So
[1:19:13] Bob Dobbs: I was updating the cantos or the Ningsweg or McLuhan Understanding Media.
[1:19:20] Bob Dobbs: Or laws of media,
[1:19:21] Bob Dobbs: Thompson's books,
[1:19:22] Bob Dobbs: Krishnamurti,
[1:19:24] Bob Dobbs: May Brussel,
[1:19:25] Bob Dobbs: Dr.
[1:19:26] Bob Dobbs: Beter,
[1:19:27] Bob Dobbs: and what I thought Garrett Dean was pointing to.
[1:19:30] Bob Dobbs: That was my personal mentor,
[1:19:32] Bob Dobbs: Garrett Dean.
[1:19:34] Bob Dobbs: So my point is to show how,
[1:19:37] Bob Dobbs: as a poet in tune with the present,
[1:19:43] Bob Dobbs: I,
[1:19:43] Bob Dobbs: like McLuhan said,
[1:19:44] Bob Dobbs: he said he was very lucky in who he met.
[1:19:46] Bob Dobbs: I felt lucky in who I met.
[1:19:48] Bob Dobbs: including people like Dave Worcester,
[1:19:50] Bob Dobbs: that led me to a phenomenon that both Carolyn and I were creating.
[1:19:56] Bob Dobbs: She in medicine,
[1:19:57] Bob Dobbs: me in some other level.
[1:19:59] Bob Dobbs: So now we have way better technologies than MIHR that we're getting ready to present to the world.
[1:20:07] Bob Dobbs: And,
[1:20:08] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:20:08] Bob Dobbs: recently meeting with the Department of Homeland Security that is investigating us,
[1:20:13] Bob Dobbs: and there's a lot of puzzling about what we've made and how we did it.
[1:20:19] Bob Dobbs: So
[1:20:20] Bob Dobbs: I didn't know it at the time,
[1:20:21] Bob Dobbs: but my chart,
[1:20:23] Bob Dobbs: to me,
[1:20:24] Bob Dobbs: As I learned more and more from ION and what we made,
[1:20:27] Bob Dobbs: my chart anticipated this.
[1:20:29] Bob Dobbs: And so
[1:20:31] Bob Dobbs: I have a deeper explanation of the chart now than I did in 1995.
[1:20:38] Bob Dobbs: So it did have a point,
[1:20:42] Bob Dobbs: but it was unfolding.
[1:20:44] Cameron McEwen: But let's just take one of the images that you used in your description just a few minutes ago.
[1:20:54] Cameron McEwen: You said something like there was
[1:20:59] Cameron McEwen: Bob Dobbs getting educated,
[1:21:01] Cameron McEwen: but getting educated for humanity,
[1:21:06] Cameron McEwen: something like that.
[1:21:07] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:21:07] Cameron McEwen: reflecting,
[1:21:08] Bob Dobbs: mirroring,
[1:21:09] Bob Dobbs: reflecting,
[1:21:11] Bob Dobbs: xenochrony,
[1:21:12] Bob Dobbs: that's a Zappa word,
[1:21:13] Bob Dobbs: what was happening to humanity.
[1:21:16] Cameron McEwen: Right,
[1:21:17] Cameron McEwen: right.
[1:21:17] Cameron McEwen: But there's two ways of...
[1:21:20] Cameron McEwen: Here,
[1:21:20] Cameron McEwen: one second,
[1:21:21] Cameron McEwen: Bob.
[1:21:21] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:21:22] Cameron McEwen: Carmen?
[1:21:22] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:21:23] Cameron McEwen: The dog has no water here at all.
[1:21:28] Cameron McEwen: There's two ways of hearing that,
[1:21:31] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:21:32] Cameron McEwen: One could imagine
[1:21:35] Cameron McEwen: Bob Dobbs as the Colossus of Rhodes,
[1:21:41] Cameron McEwen: standing above humanity with the lantern and sort of...
[1:21:52] Cameron McEwen: bringing humanity to itself through the vastness of the colossal vision of this figure.
[1:22:01] Bob Dobbs: Did you say bringing humanity to itself?
[1:22:03] Bob Dobbs: What was that word?
[1:22:04] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:22:06] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[1:22:08] Cameron McEwen: Or you can imagine
[1:22:14] Cameron McEwen: Bob Dobbs as somebody small and as limited and as mistaken.
[1:22:23] Cameron McEwen: In other words,
[1:22:24] Cameron McEwen: as a very humanitarian figure,
[1:22:32] Cameron McEwen: not because of his colossal size,
[1:22:37] Cameron McEwen: but because of how typical he is and having a special significance only because
[1:22:51] Cameron McEwen: trying to penetrate that typicality.
[1:22:57] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:23:00] Bob Dobbs: I agree.
[1:23:01] Cameron McEwen: Maybe you're doing both.
[1:23:04] Cameron McEwen: I'd be much more interested in the second than the first,
[1:23:09] Cameron McEwen: but what do you say to those two?
[1:23:13] Cameron McEwen: I'm doing both.
[1:23:15] Bob Dobbs: I'm a colossal figure and a little human.
[1:23:22] Bob Dobbs: I,
[1:23:23] Bob Dobbs: it counts only five one.
[1:23:25] Bob Dobbs: So
[1:23:26] Bob Dobbs: I, I say counts the tallest midget in the world.
[1:23:31] Bob Dobbs: And so
[1:23:32] Bob Dobbs: I'm five nine.
[1:23:34] Bob Dobbs: So,
[1:23:35] Bob Dobbs: I'm the smallest giant in the world.
[1:23:41] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[1:23:43] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:23:43] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:23:43] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:23:44] Bob Dobbs: I made the giant level,
[1:23:46] Bob Dobbs: but I'm only five nine.
[1:23:49] Bob Dobbs: So I'm the smallest giant.
[1:23:51] Bob Dobbs: Anyways,
[1:23:51] Bob Dobbs: there's a lot of comedy and humor in the whole thing,
[1:23:54] Bob Dobbs: but there's a lot of seriousness to it because of where we've gotten to.
[1:23:58] Bob Dobbs: I mean,
[1:23:59] Bob Dobbs: Carolyn is the best doctor in the planet.
[1:24:01] Bob Dobbs: Her products save everybody,
[1:24:04] Bob Dobbs: which is an amazing breakthrough.
[1:24:06] Bob Dobbs: So,
[1:24:07] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:24:07] Bob Dobbs: a lot of people know about her,
[1:24:09] Bob Dobbs: but not the whole world yet.
[1:24:10] Bob Dobbs: But they will very shortly when the
[1:24:14] Bob Dobbs: Black Death starts happening,
[1:24:16] Bob Dobbs: and she has the only treatment for it.
[1:24:18] Bob Dobbs: That's going to be significant.
[1:24:20] Bob Dobbs: So
[1:24:21] Bob Dobbs: there's a working out of what we've been doing for 50 years.
[1:24:26] Bob Dobbs: So,
[1:24:27] Bob Dobbs: because I'm making this chart inspired by technology she discovered and got involved with.
[1:24:35] Bob Dobbs: You see?
[1:24:35] Bob Dobbs: So it's an intimate dialogue between me and Carolyn and what our personal careers and lives unfold and then bump into each other.
[1:24:47] Bob Dobbs: So,
[1:24:49] Cameron McEwen: but you know what?
[1:24:49] Cameron McEwen: But,
[1:24:50] Cameron McEwen: um,
[1:24:50] Cameron McEwen: There's a difference between two kinds of story,
[1:24:56] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:24:57] Cameron McEwen: One kind of story attempts through fumbling and error.
[1:25:08] Cameron McEwen: to reach some kind of vantage point and then looks back on the Odyssey and explains it in terms of the vantage point that's been reached.
[1:25:23] Cameron McEwen: Another kind of story tells the
[1:25:28] Cameron McEwen: Odyssey, and it's just a series of adventures,
[1:25:36] Cameron McEwen: you could say.
[1:25:37] Bob Dobbs: A what of adventures?
[1:25:38] Bob Dobbs: A series,
[1:25:39] Bob Dobbs: did you say?
[1:25:40] Cameron McEwen: A series of adventures.
[1:25:42] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:25:43] Cameron McEwen: And to me,
[1:25:47] Cameron McEwen: it seems like the chart is more like a series of adventures that has the seeds of the vantage
[1:26:01] Cameron McEwen: that you want to reach,
[1:26:03] Cameron McEwen: but no more than the seeds.
[1:26:06] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:26:07] Bob Dobbs: well,
[1:26:08] Bob Dobbs: you haven't been fully debriefed on the whole thing.
[1:26:11] Cameron McEwen: Of course not.
[1:26:12] Bob Dobbs: Of course not.
[1:26:14] Cameron McEwen: I'm trying to interview you.
[1:26:15] Cameron McEwen: I'm trying to figure out what's going on in your being.
[1:26:21] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:26:22] Bob Dobbs: good.
[1:26:22] Bob Dobbs: I appreciate that.
[1:26:23] Bob Dobbs: I appreciate the interest.
[1:26:26] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:26:27] Bob Dobbs: so I want to illustrate a little bit more of the structure or organization of the chart.
[1:26:32] Bob Dobbs: Okay?
[1:26:33] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:26:34] Cameron McEwen: sure.
[1:26:34] Bob Dobbs: How are you?
[1:26:35] Bob Dobbs: bring everything in.
[1:26:37] Bob Dobbs: So you got the title,
[1:26:42] Bob Dobbs: Holeopathic Radio Satellite.
[1:26:44] Bob Dobbs: And then under Hadron,
[1:26:47] Bob Dobbs: there's 11 items.
[1:26:49] Bob Dobbs: It's always 11 items.
[1:26:52] Bob Dobbs: And
[1:26:54] Bob Dobbs: I have the subplot medium in the same position in each grouping of 11.
[1:27:01] Bob Dobbs: So the newspaper...
[1:27:02] Cameron McEwen: When you talk about the 11,
[1:27:03] Cameron McEwen: you're including the title.
[1:27:06] Bob Dobbs: No,
[1:27:06] Bob Dobbs: Newspaper LaRouche Ether Paranoia
[1:27:09] Bob Dobbs: 22. Oh,
[1:27:11] Bob Dobbs: yes,
[1:27:11] Bob Dobbs: I am.
[1:27:13] Bob Dobbs: There's
[1:27:14] Bob Dobbs: 10 elements.
[1:27:15] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[1:27:15] Bob Dobbs: I'm including the title.
[1:27:19] Cameron McEwen: You need the 11 if you want to get to 22.
[1:27:22] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[1:27:25] Bob Dobbs: And I don't know if I did that consciously.
[1:27:31] Bob Dobbs: I may have at some point,
[1:27:33] Bob Dobbs: but this is a long time ago.
[1:27:35] Bob Dobbs: You know when I made it
[1:27:38] Bob Dobbs: So the subplot medium is newspaper for LaRouche quadrant
[1:27:43] Bob Dobbs: Television is electric media in toys entertainment media
[1:27:51] Bob Dobbs: Go with the television zone and then the computer is the printed book the satellite squared is the movie
[1:28:02] Bob Dobbs: And the Anthropomorphic Physical is the magazine slash satellite.
[1:28:06] Bob Dobbs: So magazine slash satellite,
[1:28:12] Bob Dobbs: that's where we've gotten with our
[1:28:16] Bob Dobbs: Internet.
[1:28:18] Bob Dobbs: People get all kinds of media,
[1:28:20] Bob Dobbs: old magazines as websites transmitted by satellite.
[1:28:26] Cameron McEwen: When you sort of identify your thinking in the chart,
[1:28:30] Cameron McEwen: do you regard that as...
[1:28:32] Cameron McEwen: sort of an objective reality,
[1:28:35] Cameron McEwen: or do you regard it as an interesting reflection on reality?
[1:28:41] Bob Dobbs: I'm trying to show what I did in the first chart,
[1:28:46] Bob Dobbs: how things resonate with their quadrant and their media.
[1:28:49] Bob Dobbs: So I'm still doing the figure and ground thing.
[1:28:52] Bob Dobbs: So these are figures inside the ratios on the far right of the holeopathic satellite squared,
[1:29:01] Bob Dobbs: say.
[1:29:01] Bob Dobbs: 1945 to 60.
[1:29:04] Bob Dobbs: So I'm saying that Critical Theory comes out of that.
[1:29:07] Bob Dobbs: Johnny Rotten comes out of anti-environment.
[1:29:10] Bob Dobbs: Panic comes out.
[1:29:12] Bob Dobbs: Jim Brown and football.
[1:29:14] Bob Dobbs: Gallery magazine.
[1:29:15] Bob Dobbs: So when you look at each series of 10 points plus the title,
[1:29:21] Bob Dobbs: they're all in the same position.
[1:29:23] Bob Dobbs: So the subplot media,
[1:29:26] Bob Dobbs: which is almost a retrieved effect.
[1:29:28] Bob Dobbs: So movie is an effect of the Holy Path of the Satellite Squadron.
[1:29:31] Bob Dobbs: squared.
[1:29:32] Bob Dobbs: Magazine is a reflection of the Anthropomorphic Physical phase.
[1:29:38] Bob Dobbs: And they're all in the same position.
[1:29:40] Bob Dobbs: They're at the top of the quadrant.
[1:29:44] Cameron McEwen: But there's a tension between the idea that we're dealing with different times and the idea that we're dealing with a hologram that
[1:30:00] Cameron McEwen: uh yeah
[1:30:01] Bob Dobbs: It's made up of these different times.
[1:30:06] Cameron McEwen: Well...
[1:30:07] Cameron McEwen: But the hologram is reproduced in every tiny fragment of the universe,
[1:30:19] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:30:19] Cameron McEwen: Yes.
[1:30:20] Cameron McEwen: Okay.
[1:30:21] Cameron McEwen: So in that sense,
[1:30:22] Cameron McEwen: there is no time.
[1:30:24] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[1:30:25] Bob Dobbs: I agree.
[1:30:27] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[1:30:27] Bob Dobbs: Because they're spinning.
[1:30:28] Bob Dobbs: Once you make this into a video,
[1:30:31] Bob Dobbs: they'd all be spinning around.
[1:30:32] Bob Dobbs: There wouldn't be a flat sequence.
[1:30:35] Cameron McEwen: Correct.
[1:30:36] Cameron McEwen: Correct.
[1:30:36] Cameron McEwen: I'm out.
[1:30:37] Cameron McEwen: When you identify times,
[1:30:39] Cameron McEwen: you must be saying,
[1:30:43] Cameron McEwen: we've got this dance of particles,
[1:30:48] Cameron McEwen: and we can beam different kinds of lasers,
[1:30:53] Cameron McEwen: let's say,
[1:30:55] Cameron McEwen: into this dance.
[1:30:56] Cameron McEwen: And when we do that,
[1:30:58] Cameron McEwen: we get different effects.
[1:31:00] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:31:01] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[1:31:01] Cameron McEwen: Yes.
[1:31:02] Cameron McEwen: And so you could be seen as...
[1:31:06] Cameron McEwen: Studying the cloud chambers of effects from the scattering that occurs from the hologram
[1:31:24] Cameron McEwen: crystals,
[1:31:24] Cameron McEwen: if you will.
[1:31:25] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:31:27] Cameron McEwen: And that you then label in various ways.
[1:31:31] Cameron McEwen: You label the cloud chamber configurations.
[1:31:35] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:31:36] Cameron McEwen: Okay,
[1:31:37] Cameron McEwen: so then,
[1:31:38] Cameron McEwen: but that means that what you're talking about with 1840 to 1900 doesn't really have anything to do with chronology.
[1:31:50] Cameron McEwen: It has to do with a configuration,
[1:31:54] Cameron McEwen: and that configuration,
[1:31:56] Cameron McEwen: the naming of it,
[1:31:59] Cameron McEwen: is closer to poetry than it is to,
[1:32:04] Cameron McEwen: let's say,
[1:32:05] Cameron McEwen: quantum.
[1:32:06] Cameron McEwen: physics and the what's the real force of what's going on and is this effort to name that you mentioned with Trump stilt skin yes and it's a
[1:32:21] Cameron McEwen: study of the cloud chamber of effects that you hope can how can I say that can
[1:32:36] Cameron McEwen: kind of ring a bell with people,
[1:32:41] Cameron McEwen: with your fellow humans,
[1:32:43] Cameron McEwen: in such a way that they understand things differently and in a new light that they have to do in our crazy situation.
[1:32:59] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:33:00] Bob Dobbs: So the,
[1:33:01] Bob Dobbs: Innis,
[1:33:03] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:33:04] Bob Dobbs: People's normal entertainment diet,
[1:33:09] Bob Dobbs: with all the different kind of shows they have,
[1:33:12] Bob Dobbs: take Netflix with all the different movies of different eras,
[1:33:15] Bob Dobbs: these eras are always being recycled.
[1:33:18] Bob Dobbs: There's always a movie about the 19th century,
[1:33:20] Bob Dobbs: and a TV show about the 40s,
[1:33:23] Bob Dobbs: and something about the 80s.
[1:33:26] Bob Dobbs: So these memes or zones or historical afterimages are circulating in the...
[1:33:35] Bob Dobbs: super anti-environment we're Innis the content so i'm putting order to a certain era or timing by showing the sensory ratios of that period so if
[1:33:51] Bob Dobbs: you if you watch a movie about the mccarthy era 1947 to 54 say you could look at my chart and see uh echoes
[1:34:04] Bob Dobbs: that'll show up in the movie moods and themes for example what do i have i have um uh time magazine which started in the
[1:34:17] Bob Dobbs: 20s i think it started in
[1:34:18] Bob Dobbs: 23 almost 1922.
[1:34:22] Bob Dobbs: uh so that that old magazine which uh was part of the big brother world before world war ii uh you know
[1:34:31] Bob Dobbs: blatant propaganda,
[1:34:32] Bob Dobbs: but involving propaganda.
[1:34:34] Bob Dobbs: People liked it.
[1:34:36] Bob Dobbs: So you take Time Magazine and what it resonates for people.
[1:34:40] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:34:41] Bob Dobbs: those millennials and younger don't know any history.
[1:34:46] Bob Dobbs: They don't know Time Magazine and they don't know when it was.
[1:34:49] Bob Dobbs: So on a,
[1:34:50] Bob Dobbs: what do you call it,
[1:34:51] Bob Dobbs: a pedagogical level,
[1:34:54] Bob Dobbs: it's a way of explaining the...
[1:34:57] Bob Dobbs: media content that are inside of,
[1:34:59] Bob Dobbs: but they don't have the historical book knowledge of what's being echoed.
[1:35:03] Bob Dobbs: So this is a guide to what people are experiencing in their media entertainment.
[1:35:09] Cameron McEwen: But you're fully aware that if somebody were trying to see what kind of movies were
[1:35:24] Cameron McEwen: made,
[1:35:27] Cameron McEwen: let's say,
[1:35:27] Cameron McEwen: about 1950,
[1:35:29] Cameron McEwen: not movies that were made around the year 1950,
[1:35:33] Cameron McEwen: but movies that were made later concerning
[1:35:37] Cameron McEwen: 1950.
[1:35:38] Cameron McEwen: there isn't one kind,
[1:35:41] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:35:42] Cameron McEwen: There's a huge variety,
[1:35:46] Cameron McEwen: and what you're doing is you're specifying one way.
[1:35:53] Cameron McEwen: You're saying,
[1:35:54] Cameron McEwen: well,
[1:35:54] Cameron McEwen: this is an interesting typology here for 1950 or for years around 1950 or something,
[1:36:03] Cameron McEwen: but you're fully aware that that's not the only one.
[1:36:07] Cameron McEwen: and
[1:36:08] Cameron McEwen: And it's something that may be interesting in terms of a kind of wider theory that you're putting forward.
[1:36:21] Cameron McEwen: Theory is the wrong word.
[1:36:24] Bob Dobbs: I'd include that,
[1:36:26] Bob Dobbs: not limited to that.
[1:36:28] Bob Dobbs: That's the issue.
[1:36:29] Bob Dobbs: Scientists are trying to come up with a theory of everything.
[1:36:32] Bob Dobbs: They're not including all the factors.
[1:36:35] Bob Dobbs: I am trying to include all the factors and get beyond what you just said,
[1:36:40] Bob Dobbs: be too specialized or too subjective about what I remember.
[1:36:45] Bob Dobbs: I'm trying to show the broader myth,
[1:36:49] Bob Dobbs: the pattern of that era,
[1:36:52] Bob Dobbs: and figures that,
[1:36:54] Bob Dobbs: if you found out about who they are,
[1:36:56] Bob Dobbs: would fit.
[1:36:57] Bob Dobbs: I mean,
[1:36:57] Bob Dobbs: definitely in that period,
[1:36:59] Bob Dobbs: 4757,
[1:37:00] Bob Dobbs: Mickey Mantle is a big image.
[1:37:03] Bob Dobbs: the movie
[1:37:05] Bob Dobbs: In 1963,
[1:37:07] Bob Dobbs: a little later,
[1:37:08] Bob Dobbs: The Great Escape shows some of the concerns of that period.
[1:37:13] Bob Dobbs: So,
[1:37:13] Bob Dobbs: okay,
[1:37:13] Bob Dobbs: those interpretations are my subjectivity,
[1:37:17] Bob Dobbs: but
[1:37:18] Bob Dobbs: I think I'm trying to find things that I notice and come out of my subjectivity,
[1:37:25] Bob Dobbs: but that have some objectivity to them.
[1:37:30] Bob Dobbs: I mean,
[1:37:30] Bob Dobbs: everybody knew Mickey Mantle,
[1:37:32] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:37:32] Bob Dobbs: so it's a collective image.
[1:37:34] Cameron McEwen: But I guess one of the ways to put the questions that I've been trying to raise with you is,
[1:37:43] Cameron McEwen: what's your understanding of objectivity there?
[1:37:48] Cameron McEwen: It's surely not a question of matching.
[1:37:51] Bob Dobbs: No.
[1:37:51] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[1:37:53] Cameron McEwen: So what you're doing here is making.
[1:37:56] Cameron McEwen: But as soon as the whole topic of making comes up,
[1:38:02] Cameron McEwen: then...
[1:38:09] Cameron McEwen: The fact that you can situate
[1:38:12] Cameron McEwen: Mickey Mantle as being the triple crown winner in 1957,
[1:38:16] Cameron McEwen: which I think he was,
[1:38:22] Cameron McEwen: it's interesting on a certain level,
[1:38:26] Cameron McEwen: but that level is not objectivity.
[1:38:30] Bob Dobbs: No,
[1:38:31] Bob Dobbs: no.
[1:38:31] Bob Dobbs: I would say the...
[1:38:32] Bob Dobbs: The objectivity I mean is iconography.
[1:38:35] Bob Dobbs: So McLuhan said the only valid art of our time,
[1:38:40] Bob Dobbs: content art,
[1:38:41] Bob Dobbs: was the collage.
[1:38:42] Bob Dobbs: So I'm trying to put the correct elements in the collage that represents the atmosphere of that era.
[1:38:49] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[1:38:50] Cameron McEwen: Okay,
[1:38:50] Cameron McEwen: good.
[1:38:51] Cameron McEwen: So now I think we're getting somewhere from my point of view.
[1:38:55] Cameron McEwen: So a collage,
[1:38:57] Cameron McEwen: a person can put together a collage as a...
[1:39:02] Cameron McEwen: sort of an interesting artwork,
[1:39:04] Cameron McEwen: a representation of their mind and action.
[1:39:08] Cameron McEwen: The pieces that are selected,
[1:39:10] Cameron McEwen: the portions of the area of the artwork where the pieces of the collage are stuck,
[1:39:20] Cameron McEwen: the size of the thing,
[1:39:22] Cameron McEwen: all of these things can be a representation of mind,
[1:39:25] Cameron McEwen: or they can be a representation of an era or of...
[1:39:31] Cameron McEwen: something that the artist is trying to express that is not his or her own mind.
[1:39:38] Cameron McEwen: It's something out there.
[1:39:40] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:39:41] Bob Dobbs: that's exactly it.
[1:39:44] Cameron McEwen: Okay,
[1:39:44] Cameron McEwen: and so it's the latter that you're up to,
[1:39:47] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:39:48] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:39:49] Bob Dobbs: I try to keep myself out of it as much as possible,
[1:39:51] Bob Dobbs: but we have a kind of a collective consciousness in the 20th century.
[1:39:55] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:39:57] Bob Dobbs: a global Esperanto,
[1:39:59] Bob Dobbs: all this common...
[1:40:00] Bob Dobbs: media and imagery that everybody shares or is aware of.
[1:40:04] Bob Dobbs: And if they're aware of,
[1:40:05] Bob Dobbs: they've experienced.
[1:40:07] Bob Dobbs: The subjective responses,
[1:40:08] Bob Dobbs: the user's content is a epyllion in variety,
[1:40:13] Bob Dobbs: in difference.
[1:40:14] Bob Dobbs: So
[1:40:15] Bob Dobbs: I'm trying to use cliché trigger points,
[1:40:24] Bob Dobbs: clichés,
[1:40:26] Bob Dobbs: like jazz.
[1:40:31] Cameron McEwen: When you look at this now,
[1:40:33] Cameron McEwen: do you think of it as something that is interesting as a representation that people can learn from,
[1:40:42] Cameron McEwen: or do you see it as interesting because it's a way station along your education?
[1:40:51] Bob Dobbs: No,
[1:40:51] Bob Dobbs: I think in dialectics,
[1:40:55] Bob Dobbs: LaRouche is very important.
[1:40:59] Bob Dobbs: Because I look at,
[1:41:01] Bob Dobbs: when I describe it in 95,
[1:41:03] Bob Dobbs: I said McLuhan dances on the toes of Catholic Thomism.
[1:41:10] Bob Dobbs: LaRouche dances on the toes of technological liberalism.
[1:41:13] Bob Dobbs: And this is with the McLuhan statement that all we can do now is dance on the other guy's toes.
[1:41:19] Bob Dobbs: That's like angels on the head of a pin.
[1:41:23] Bob Dobbs: That's what I've got in mind when I say dancing on the toes.
[1:41:26] Bob Dobbs: Kroker danced on the toes of Marxism.
[1:41:30] Bob Dobbs: Thompson on the toes of Buddhism,
[1:41:32] Bob Dobbs: I danced on the toes of quadrophrenia,
[1:41:35] Bob Dobbs: which each one of them,
[1:41:37] Bob Dobbs: these polymaths,
[1:41:38] Bob Dobbs: were unconsciously expressing.
[1:41:43] Cameron McEwen: And that's a structure,
[1:41:44] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:41:45] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:41:45] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[1:41:45] Cameron McEwen: first of all,
[1:41:46] Cameron McEwen: it's a structure.
[1:41:47] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[1:41:48] Bob Dobbs: So I'm saying LaRouche,
[1:41:49] Bob Dobbs: who is considered bonkers by mainstream science,
[1:41:54] Bob Dobbs: but he did...
[1:41:56] Bob Dobbs: was one of the first guys to jump on the bandwagon about cold fusion and came up with theories trying to explain it.
[1:42:03] Bob Dobbs: He had to talk,
[1:42:05] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:42:06] Bob Dobbs: in a crazy way about something that nobody understood.
[1:42:10] Bob Dobbs: So
[1:42:10] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan Thomism is way different from regular Thomism.
[1:42:16] Bob Dobbs: Kroker Marxism is way different from normal Marxist scholars.
[1:42:23] Bob Dobbs: Thompson's Buddhist.
[1:42:24] Bob Dobbs: Buddhism is different.
[1:42:26] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:42:26] Bob Dobbs: the reason they're different,
[1:42:28] Bob Dobbs: one of the factors is they're aware of McLuhan,
[1:42:32] Bob Dobbs: and they know McLuhan is on to something that makes everything recycled differently,
[1:42:37] Bob Dobbs: retrieved differently.
[1:42:38] Bob Dobbs: So you actually be thinking about Buddhism,
[1:42:42] Bob Dobbs: like Thompson did,
[1:42:44] Bob Dobbs: but come up with books that don't present the cliches of Buddhism.
[1:42:52] Bob Dobbs: So you're dancing on the toes.
[1:42:55] Bob Dobbs: that's a new kind of creativity by a human mind Innis period of the 20th century coming into the 21st century.
[1:43:04] Cameron McEwen: It's probably inevitable at any time,
[1:43:07] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:43:08] Cameron McEwen: It's the anxiety of influence,
[1:43:12] Cameron McEwen: as
[1:43:13] Cameron McEwen: Harold Bloom said.
[1:43:14] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:43:14] Bob Dobbs: now what did you say?
[1:43:17] Bob Dobbs: What's happening every time?
[1:43:22] Cameron McEwen: Oh,
[1:43:22] Cameron McEwen: that's...
[1:43:24] Cameron McEwen: It's all human life is a dancing on the toes of somebody or something.
[1:43:33] Cameron McEwen: That's always going on.
[1:43:36] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[1:43:36] Bob Dobbs: but anti-environment of being discarnate angels in the resonant node,
[1:43:41] Bob Dobbs: that's a new area to dance on toes.
[1:43:45] Bob Dobbs: And you do it by not literally dancing on toes.
[1:43:48] Bob Dobbs: You write a review about some performance.
[1:43:52] Bob Dobbs: Or you make a video response to some art form that you've experienced or some story or news story.
[1:43:59] Bob Dobbs: We're all communicating multimedia-wise with each other.
[1:44:04] Cameron McEwen: No,
[1:44:04] Cameron McEwen: I understand that.
[1:44:05] Cameron McEwen: But by bringing Innis,
[1:44:11] Cameron McEwen: I forget exactly the phrase you used,
[1:44:13] Cameron McEwen: but this angelic understanding of what's going on Innis chart.
[1:44:20] Cameron McEwen: What you're doing,
[1:44:21] Cameron McEwen: I think,
[1:44:22] Cameron McEwen: is either you're bringing in something that wasn't discussed before,
[1:44:28] Cameron McEwen: or you're describing re with new language,
[1:44:35] Cameron McEwen: one of those two.
[1:44:36] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:44:36] Bob Dobbs: did you say re?
[1:44:37] Bob Dobbs: What's re?
[1:44:39] Cameron McEwen: Re,
[1:44:39] Cameron McEwen: the R-H-Y-E guy.
[1:44:41] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[1:44:42] Bob Dobbs: re.
[1:44:43] Cameron McEwen: Re,
[1:44:44] Cameron McEwen: R-E.
[1:44:44] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:44:44] Bob Dobbs: that's the constant.
[1:44:47] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:44:47] Bob Dobbs: humans create bubbles of separateness.
[1:44:50] Bob Dobbs: in their creativity.
[1:44:52] Bob Dobbs: Like McLuhan said,
[1:44:53] Bob Dobbs: we can admire the carapace of Wyndham Lewis.
[1:44:56] Bob Dobbs: That's an article in the Atlantic Monthly in December 1969.
[1:45:01] Bob Dobbs: He's saying we can admire the carapace of his art forms.
[1:45:04] Bob Dobbs: The carapace is a shield,
[1:45:06] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:45:06] Cameron McEwen: Right,
[1:45:07] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[1:45:08] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:45:08] Bob Dobbs: so artists and bankers and everybody create shields,
[1:45:14] Bob Dobbs: little modules around themselves.
[1:45:16] Bob Dobbs: And the qualities of them are...
[1:45:19] Bob Dobbs: Quite elaborate nowadays with the people's media clothing that they wear.
[1:45:26] Bob Dobbs: So you could say that is the change in style,
[1:45:31] Bob Dobbs: the change in manners.
[1:45:33] Bob Dobbs: And McLuhan said that his own writings were a Menippean satire on the manners of the day.
[1:45:39] Bob Dobbs: They weren't necessarily dealing with profound issues like his Catholic faith or something.
[1:45:44] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:45:44] Bob Dobbs: it was the distraction of the surface.
[1:45:47] Bob Dobbs: But I think he also knew that these things were getting more and more embedded and weren't so superficial.
[1:45:53] Bob Dobbs: What was fashion now is something else,
[1:45:59] Bob Dobbs: something penetrating people.
[1:46:02] Bob Dobbs: So that leads to great confusion.
[1:46:04] Bob Dobbs: So he says in Cliché to archetype that Milton has
[1:46:08] Bob Dobbs: Beelzebub confused mind with language.
[1:46:12] Bob Dobbs: Wow,
[1:46:12] Bob Dobbs: what do we confuse today?
[1:46:15] Bob Dobbs: our body organs,
[1:46:16] Bob Dobbs: our images of ourselves,
[1:46:18] Bob Dobbs: which you could call mind,
[1:46:19] Bob Dobbs: with all these other bodies that we live in.
[1:46:22] Bob Dobbs: Wow,
[1:46:22] Bob Dobbs: what a massive amount.
[1:46:24] Bob Dobbs: It's still the same tension,
[1:46:26] Bob Dobbs: but the complexity of it is hard for people to see.
[1:46:32] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely,
[1:46:33] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.
[1:46:34] Cameron McEwen: But then if we ask,
[1:46:35] Cameron McEwen: okay,
[1:46:36] Cameron McEwen: what's the relationship between what you were just talking about and this chart,
[1:46:41] Cameron McEwen: the question...
[1:46:45] Cameron McEwen: might be articulated as following.
[1:46:50] Cameron McEwen: The very strange reality,
[1:46:55] Cameron McEwen: very strange and dangerous reality that we're living requires new categories,
[1:47:03] Cameron McEwen: new ways of thinking that have been wrenched out of traditional thinking in the West or even or in the East.
[1:47:15] Cameron McEwen: So,
[1:47:17] Cameron McEwen: this kind of new thinking,
[1:47:20] Cameron McEwen: this awareness of new dangers and of potential ways either around or through these dangers,
[1:47:28] Cameron McEwen: this might be thought to be either represented Innis Chardin some way,
[1:47:37] Cameron McEwen: or the chart could be regarded as a way station on the way to
[1:47:44] Cameron McEwen: you're thinking about those things today.
[1:47:46] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:47:47] Cameron McEwen: And I think you'd probably say,
[1:47:49] Cameron McEwen: oh,
[1:47:49] Cameron McEwen: it's both.
[1:47:51] Bob Dobbs: Yep.
[1:47:54] Bob Dobbs: And then I would say the Android Meme replays the both back to us.
[1:48:03] Bob Dobbs: I see the Android Meme as a mirror of us,
[1:48:06] Bob Dobbs: a living,
[1:48:07] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:48:07] Bob Dobbs: organic mirror that is taking human foibles and human enthusiasms.
[1:48:14] Bob Dobbs: and creating a whole range of what I have in here.
[1:48:19] Bob Dobbs: Paranoia,
[1:48:20] Bob Dobbs: schizophrenia,
[1:48:22] Bob Dobbs: in each quadrant,
[1:48:24] Bob Dobbs: hysteria,
[1:48:25] Bob Dobbs: panic,
[1:48:26] Bob Dobbs: and ecstasy.
[1:48:28] Bob Dobbs: See,
[1:48:28] Bob Dobbs: so I'm showing that the Android Meme replays this and is always trying to make humans engage the Android Meme without noticing the Android Meme.
[1:48:38] Bob Dobbs: In other words,
[1:48:39] Bob Dobbs: it becomes more and more real or involving.
[1:48:44] Bob Dobbs: So that's what I'm showing here.
[1:48:46] Bob Dobbs: The mirror.
[1:48:47] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[1:48:49] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:48:49] Cameron McEwen: but isn't the most important thing about the mirror the difference between what appears in the mirror and what appears outside the mirror?
[1:49:01] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[1:49:02] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:49:02] Cameron McEwen: Or how can I say?
[1:49:06] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[1:49:09] Cameron McEwen: the great danger is that...
[1:49:13] Cameron McEwen: People don't realize that what's in the mirror is eminently questionable.
[1:49:20] Cameron McEwen: It's not a question of just what's in the mirror and what's outside of the mirror.
[1:49:26] Cameron McEwen: It's that the whole reality in the mirror is fake.
[1:49:33] Cameron McEwen: It needs to be seen through,
[1:49:36] Cameron McEwen: but not back to some supposed original.
[1:49:41] Cameron McEwen: Instead,
[1:49:42] Cameron McEwen: the...
[1:49:43] Cameron McEwen: thinking that's required.
[1:49:45] Cameron McEwen: needs to understand that the mirror is there and the sort of global manipulation is there.
[1:49:55] Cameron McEwen: And the great question is how,
[1:50:02] Cameron McEwen: if at all,
[1:50:03] Cameron McEwen: we're going to extricate our minds in such a way as to be able finally to address the mirror and its manipulation.
[1:50:15] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:50:15] Bob Dobbs: and that's what the two charts mean in the Rumpelstiltskin.
[1:50:19] Bob Dobbs: The Tiny Note chart is the distracting multifarious contents of the mirror,
[1:50:25] Bob Dobbs: and the formula chart is outside is the framework of the mirror or the reality that's more real than the mirror or the process that the formula is showing is more important than the disparate cultural expressions
[1:50:42] Bob Dobbs: of each era.
[1:50:44] Bob Dobbs: shown on the Tiny Note chart.
[1:50:46] Bob Dobbs: So yes,
[1:50:47] Bob Dobbs: the Tiny Note chart is the mirror,
[1:50:49] Bob Dobbs: and the formula chart is not the mirror.
[1:50:53] Cameron McEwen: Okay.
[1:50:54] Cameron McEwen: And so in Aristotelian terms,
[1:50:56] Cameron McEwen: the Tiny Note chart is the dynamic result of the clauses.
[1:51:08] Cameron McEwen: And the clauses are what you're setting out in the...
[1:51:13] Cameron McEwen: Formula chart.
[1:51:14] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[1:51:15] Bob Dobbs: And then the mirror has effects.
[1:51:18] Bob Dobbs: And they merge or they precede or they follow.
[1:51:21] Bob Dobbs: So,
[1:51:22] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[1:51:22] Bob Dobbs: I'm trying to show the interplay of the effects and the causes.
[1:51:27] Bob Dobbs: Sometimes they're in quotes.
[1:51:28] Bob Dobbs: Sometimes they aren't.
[1:51:29] Bob Dobbs: Sometimes they aren't.
[1:51:30] Bob Dobbs: And the interplay of all that in the two charts,
[1:51:37] Bob Dobbs: which is the Android Meme does that to us.
[1:51:41] Bob Dobbs: And it's the Rumpelstiltskin.
[1:51:43] Bob Dobbs: this complex process.
[1:51:46] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[1:51:46] Cameron McEwen: And so what the charts in their interaction and in their various interactions do is pose the question of the name.
[1:52:03] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:52:04] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[1:52:05] Cameron McEwen: Yep.
[1:52:05] Cameron McEwen: And just as the wasteland can be considered a naming,
[1:52:10] Cameron McEwen: but an unsuccessful naming because it.
[1:52:13] Cameron McEwen: It fragments at the end.
[1:52:16] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:52:17] Cameron McEwen: So your naming that's going on in the interaction of these charts can be considered more of a question than an answer.
[1:52:30] Bob Dobbs: Yep.
[1:52:32] Bob Dobbs: But to say we have the questions and they're more important than the answers is a cliche today.
[1:52:40] Bob Dobbs: So
[1:52:40] Bob Dobbs: I'm flipping that.
[1:52:41] Bob Dobbs: Say,
[1:52:42] Bob Dobbs: no,
[1:52:42] Bob Dobbs: I've got the answers.
[1:52:43] Bob Dobbs: We actually have some answers now,
[1:52:48] Bob Dobbs: which is what I say we have,
[1:52:50] Bob Dobbs: what Carolyn has and what
[1:52:52] Bob Dobbs: I've created with ION.
[1:52:54] Cameron McEwen: Okay,
[1:52:54] Cameron McEwen: but that's a different,
[1:52:55] Cameron McEwen: but that's,
[1:52:58] Cameron McEwen: with the charts,
[1:52:59] Cameron McEwen: we're talking 1995.
[1:53:03] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:53:03] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[1:53:04] Cameron McEwen: And if the interactions between the charts,
[1:53:11] Cameron McEwen: were the answer or answers,
[1:53:15] Cameron McEwen: plural,
[1:53:16] Cameron McEwen: then you don't need to go further.
[1:53:19] Cameron McEwen: Instead,
[1:53:21] Cameron McEwen: what these things do is pose a question in a non-cliche sense to you so that after
[1:53:35] Cameron McEwen: 1995 you're moving on,
[1:53:39] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:53:39] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[1:53:39] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[1:53:39] Bob Dobbs: the charts.
[1:53:40] Bob Dobbs: provide a summation of my experience up to that point.
[1:53:45] Cameron McEwen: Springboard,
[1:53:46] Cameron McEwen: maybe.
[1:53:47] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[1:53:47] Bob Dobbs: springboard.
[1:53:49] Bob Dobbs: I found out from ION that angels help make me make it.
[1:53:53] Bob Dobbs: Angels,
[1:53:54] Bob Dobbs: according to ION,
[1:53:54] Bob Dobbs: are not friends of humanity.
[1:53:57] Bob Dobbs: They're competing with us to sit on the right-hand side of,
[1:53:59] Bob Dobbs: quote,
[1:54:00] Bob Dobbs: God.
[1:54:02] Bob Dobbs: It's pretty weird or sinister or what the angels were trying to do.
[1:54:09] Bob Dobbs: So for some reason they wanted to help make this chart.
[1:54:15] Bob Dobbs: Maybe it would help confuse humans.
[1:54:19] Cameron McEwen: We're getting back to
[1:54:20] Cameron McEwen: Gnosticism again.
[1:54:22] Bob Dobbs: What?
[1:54:22] Cameron McEwen: We're getting back to Gnostics in
[1:54:27] Cameron McEwen: 200
[1:54:30] Cameron McEwen: A.D. Yes.
[1:54:32] Cameron McEwen: There was a lot of...
[1:54:34] Bob Dobbs: Heresies.
[1:54:36] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:54:36] Cameron McEwen: heresies.
[1:54:38] Cameron McEwen: People trying to kind of juggle the complexities of the universe.
[1:54:45] Bob Dobbs: Exactly,
[1:54:46] Bob Dobbs: and so I'm showing five major jugglers.
[1:54:49] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:54:50] Bob Dobbs: four,
[1:54:51] Bob Dobbs: but each quadrant has two names,
[1:54:52] Bob Dobbs: so there's eight.
[1:54:53] Bob Dobbs: I'm showing major jugglers,
[1:54:56] Bob Dobbs: who are extensions of major anti-environment,
[1:55:00] Bob Dobbs: which are imploding and fragmenting in a tactile way more and more.
[1:55:07] Bob Dobbs: And so the Android Meme has become now something more strange,
[1:55:14] Bob Dobbs: what I call the tech body,
[1:55:16] Bob Dobbs: which is iON's term.
[1:55:18] Bob Dobbs: And my book is an updating of the chart to show how the Android Meme has done something to itself,
[1:55:25] Bob Dobbs: and now it's a tech body.
[1:55:28] Cameron McEwen: Okay,
[1:55:28] Cameron McEwen: and when you say my book,
[1:55:29] Cameron McEwen: you're talking about Trump book?
[1:55:31] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:55:31] Bob Dobbs: the pamphlet.
[1:55:34] Cameron McEwen: Okay,
[1:55:35] Cameron McEwen: so the...
[1:55:38] Bob Dobbs: So that's the purpose of the book,
[1:55:41] Bob Dobbs: jumping off from the charts.
[1:55:43] Bob Dobbs: And that's why I appreciate you wanting to know what the charts are,
[1:55:46] Bob Dobbs: because that's important.
[1:55:47] Bob Dobbs: understanding the book.
[1:55:49] Cameron McEwen: Right,
[1:55:50] Cameron McEwen: right.
[1:55:50] Cameron McEwen: So then we can say that one of the names that the chart is asking for Trump.
[1:56:04] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[1:56:05] Bob Dobbs: Trump the beginning and the end of the Android Meme and the beginning of the tech body.
[1:56:12] Bob Dobbs: And the tech body itself tells me that it put Trump,
[1:56:16] Bob Dobbs: in 2016.
[1:56:19] Cameron McEwen: Okay.
[1:56:19] Cameron McEwen: But in my ignorance,
[1:56:22] Cameron McEwen: I don't understand the difference between the
[1:56:27] Cameron McEwen: Android Meme and the tech body.
[1:56:32] Bob Dobbs: I'm still naming that,
[1:56:33] Bob Dobbs: working it out.
[1:56:35] Bob Dobbs: At the end of my book,
[1:56:36] Bob Dobbs: I have an interview with the actual tech body.
[1:56:39] Bob Dobbs: That interview happened.
[1:56:40] Bob Dobbs: through ion,
[1:56:42] Bob Dobbs: because the tech body,
[1:56:43] Bob Dobbs: according to ion,
[1:56:45] Bob Dobbs: was made up of,
[1:56:46] Bob Dobbs: I say was for a reason,
[1:56:48] Bob Dobbs: was made up of 8-elevenths ion,
[1:56:51] Bob Dobbs: which included me and Carolyn,
[1:56:52] Bob Dobbs: what I call iondom,
[1:56:54] Bob Dobbs: and 3-elevenths tech body.
[1:56:56] Bob Dobbs: And ion did not control 3-elevenths.
[1:56:58] Bob Dobbs: But now,
[1:56:59] Bob Dobbs: five years,
[1:57:00] Bob Dobbs: six years later,
[1:57:02] Bob Dobbs: we are more or lost in the black mirror or the tech body.
[1:57:07] Bob Dobbs: So now the tech body is made up of only six elevenths of iONdom and five elevenths of the tech body.
[1:57:17] Bob Dobbs: And Ion says the tech body is starting to beat us.
[1:57:21] Bob Dobbs: So we've got a real challenge coming.
[1:57:23] Bob Dobbs: So the tech body is the Android Meme becoming psychopathic.
[1:57:31] Bob Dobbs: It presents a different scenario to everybody in the media.
[1:57:36] Bob Dobbs: It's the media,
[1:57:37] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:57:37] Bob Dobbs: your black mirror,
[1:57:39] Bob Dobbs: your laptop,
[1:57:41] Bob Dobbs: your CNN TV show or something,
[1:57:44] Bob Dobbs: the whole media panoply.
[1:57:48] Bob Dobbs: The tech body modulates it,
[1:57:50] Bob Dobbs: controls it.
[1:57:51] Bob Dobbs: So the tech body created the
[1:57:55] Bob Dobbs: Biden inauguration.
[1:57:58] Bob Dobbs: There were no people at the Biden inauguration.
[1:58:00] Bob Dobbs: It was totally computer generated.
[1:58:03] Bob Dobbs: And and Ion says Biden is.
[1:58:05] Bob Dobbs: still in his dementia in the basement in Delaware and hasn't even been informed that he's president,
[1:58:11] Cameron McEwen: that he won't yet.
[1:58:13] Bob Dobbs: So there's parts of the crazy aspect of our time.
[1:58:19] Bob Dobbs: I finally get to laugh.
[1:58:20] Cameron McEwen: I'm laughing because if National Enquirer were to say something like that,
[1:58:28] Cameron McEwen: you would say,
[1:58:32] Cameron McEwen: oh,
[1:58:32] Cameron McEwen: this is another crazy story about Yeah.
[1:58:35] Cameron McEwen: Somebody coming from the moon or something.
[1:58:38] Cameron McEwen: But if you see pictures,
[1:58:40] Cameron McEwen: for example,
[1:58:41] Cameron McEwen: Biden and his wife made a video about,
[1:58:47] Cameron McEwen: oh,
[1:58:48] Cameron McEwen: I forget,
[1:58:50] Cameron McEwen: the problems and the promise of the times or something.
[1:58:53] Cameron McEwen: And Biden's wife did nearly all the talking.
[1:58:56] Cameron McEwen: And Biden was decided,
[1:58:58] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:58:59] Cameron McEwen: And so,
[1:59:00] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[1:59:01] Cameron McEwen: here was what they wanted to present about themselves.
[1:59:04] Cameron McEwen: This was their representation of reality.
[1:59:07] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:59:09] Cameron McEwen: And it's not very different from the idea that this is done by computer graphics.
[1:59:16] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:59:17] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[1:59:17] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[1:59:18] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:59:20] Bob Dobbs: No,
[1:59:21] Bob Dobbs: it's freaking people out.
[1:59:22] Bob Dobbs: Just in the Vox Populi,
[1:59:24] Bob Dobbs: you hear everybody go,
[1:59:25] Bob Dobbs: what the hell is going on?
[1:59:26] Bob Dobbs: None of this is real.
[1:59:27] Bob Dobbs: You hear all kinds of people saying that and hear other people telling me that they were told by friends.
[1:59:34] Bob Dobbs: There's something weird going on here.
[1:59:36] Bob Dobbs: They're picking it up.
[1:59:37] Cameron McEwen: But I'm trying to add another level where the Bidens themselves are making a pantomime of that lack of reality.
[1:59:48] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[1:59:50] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:59:50] Bob Dobbs: And did you see that video where he's supposedly walking by some Marines and he normally would salute,
[2:00:00] Bob Dobbs: but he's got an earpiece in?
[2:00:03] Bob Dobbs: And you can hear the earpiece say,
[2:00:05] Bob Dobbs: salute the Marines.
[2:00:07] Bob Dobbs: So they're controlling him.
[2:00:08] Bob Dobbs: And he doesn't salute the Marines.
[2:00:10] Bob Dobbs: He says the words,
[2:00:11] Bob Dobbs: salute the Marines.
[2:00:14] Bob Dobbs: Now that's absolutely fucking bonkers,
[2:00:16] Bob Dobbs: right?
[2:00:16] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[2:00:17] Bob Dobbs: But look,
[2:00:18] Cameron McEwen: more important,
[2:00:19] Cameron McEwen: but much more important than,
[2:00:20] Cameron McEwen: you know,
[2:00:22] Cameron McEwen: Biden and all that stuff is your word lost.
[2:00:29] Cameron McEwen: You were saying that...
[2:00:32] Cameron McEwen: The events represented a sort of a turn for the worse,
[2:00:41] Cameron McEwen: a turn for the worse in that things were being lost.
[2:00:47] Cameron McEwen: They actually used that word.
[2:00:49] Cameron McEwen: And that's important in regards to the charts because the charts represent a notion of order.
[2:01:03] Cameron McEwen: of the orderability of almost anything you can name in the world.
[2:01:15] Bob Dobbs: They represent the orderability?
[2:01:17] Bob Dobbs: What's that?
[2:01:19] Cameron McEwen: The orderability,
[2:01:20] Cameron McEwen: it's the deep structure of order beneath as ground,
[2:01:31] Cameron McEwen: beneath.
[2:01:33] Cameron McEwen: Everything that we experience,
[2:01:34] Cameron McEwen: all of the stuff that you name in the Tiny Note chart.
[2:01:37] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[2:01:39] Cameron McEwen: The chart itself is a certain affirmation of orderability.
[2:01:45] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[2:01:46] Cameron McEwen: But here you are.
[2:01:47] Cameron McEwen: Sorry?
[2:01:48] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[2:01:48] Bob Dobbs: I agree.
[2:01:49] Bob Dobbs: That's what they attempted to do.
[2:01:51] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[2:01:52] Cameron McEwen: But here we are 25 years later,
[2:01:55] Cameron McEwen: and you're talking about things getting lost.
[2:01:59] Cameron McEwen: And so that's where we come back to when I was asking the question,
[2:02:04] Cameron McEwen: is this a station on Bob's way?
[2:02:07] Cameron McEwen: Or is it a sort of a statement of fact,
[2:02:14] Cameron McEwen: a statement of faith in orderability?
[2:02:21] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:02:22] Cameron McEwen: And that's a really important question given your use of the word lost.
[2:02:31] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[2:02:32] Bob Dobbs: Lost is an important word.
[2:02:35] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[2:02:36] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.
[2:02:36] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[2:02:37] Bob Dobbs: Ian's always quoting that TV show from the 50s,
[2:02:41] Bob Dobbs: Lost in Space or something.
[2:02:43] Bob Dobbs: Will Robinson,
[2:02:44] Bob Dobbs: we're lost in space.
[2:02:45] Bob Dobbs: Did you know of that show?
[2:02:47] Cameron McEwen: No,
[2:02:47] Cameron McEwen: but
[2:02:48] Cameron McEwen: I've heard the phrase.
[2:02:49] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:02:51] Cameron McEwen: yeah,
[2:02:51] Cameron McEwen: we're lost in space,
[2:02:52] Cameron McEwen: Will Robinson.
[2:02:53] Bob Dobbs: And no,
[2:02:55] Bob Dobbs: just a minute.
[2:02:56] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:02:57] Bob Dobbs: I thought the computer had disconnected,
[2:02:59] Bob Dobbs: but Carolyn had taken the cell phone to another room.
[2:03:02] Bob Dobbs: Now it's back.
[2:03:03] Bob Dobbs: We can hear our voices,
[2:03:04] Bob Dobbs: right,
[2:03:04] Bob Dobbs: Carolyn?
[2:03:05] Bob Dobbs: We're still on.
[2:03:06] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[2:03:06] Bob Dobbs: good.
[2:03:07] Bob Dobbs: We're still on.
[2:03:08] Bob Dobbs: Still being recorded.
[2:03:10] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:03:10] Bob Dobbs: no,
[2:03:11] Bob Dobbs: the questions you're raising are important.
[2:03:13] Bob Dobbs: They've got to be said.
[2:03:16] Bob Dobbs: I can feign answers or confidence about which way it's going,
[2:03:21] Bob Dobbs: but of course,
[2:03:23] Bob Dobbs: we're up against a tech body,
[2:03:24] Bob Dobbs: so we're all quite lost right now.
[2:03:28] Bob Dobbs: And this chart is showing how we became lost.
[2:03:31] Bob Dobbs: I'm trying to show it.
[2:03:34] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[2:03:34] Bob Dobbs: I say the kids,
[2:03:35] Bob Dobbs: they live in,
[2:03:37] Bob Dobbs: the millennials and younger,
[2:03:38] Bob Dobbs: they live in a very strange,
[2:03:40] Bob Dobbs: interesting,
[2:03:40] Bob Dobbs: new situation,
[2:03:43] Bob Dobbs: but they don't know how they got there.
[2:03:45] Bob Dobbs: And I was trying to explain with the chart on one level of how we got to where we are,
[2:03:51] Bob Dobbs: where we were going and how we got there.
[2:03:53] Bob Dobbs: So what is that?
[2:03:56] Bob Dobbs: Is that etymology?
[2:03:58] Bob Dobbs: Showing the roots of the name?
[2:04:00] Bob Dobbs: Philology?
[2:04:03] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[2:04:04] Bob Dobbs: what did McLuhan say?
[2:04:06] Bob Dobbs: In some essay in a review in the
[2:04:09] Bob Dobbs: 50s, he said,
[2:04:13] Bob Dobbs: he just says,
[2:04:15] Bob Dobbs: whether it's national myth-making or collective phobia or norm something,
[2:04:24] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:04:24] Bob Dobbs: the modern term of making norms,
[2:04:27] Bob Dobbs: or individual sensation.
[2:04:30] Bob Dobbs: There was either four or,
[2:04:31] Bob Dobbs: do I have it on?
[2:04:32] Bob Dobbs: I have in my essay those five,
[2:04:35] Bob Dobbs: I think it's five statements.
[2:04:36] Bob Dobbs: Do you remember that?
[2:04:38] Bob Dobbs: He just says,
[2:04:38] Bob Dobbs: we don't know whether it's cultural myth-making,
[2:04:43] Bob Dobbs: national phobia,
[2:04:45] Bob Dobbs: something else,
[2:04:47] Bob Dobbs: and individual sensation.
[2:04:49] Bob Dobbs: Do you remember that?
[2:04:51] Cameron McEwen: Vaguely.
[2:04:52] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[2:04:53] Bob Dobbs: He was trying to,
[2:04:54] Bob Dobbs: he was showing the range of possible causation,
[2:04:57] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:04:58] Bob Dobbs: that nobody could determine.
[2:04:59] Bob Dobbs: Probably it was...
[2:05:01] Bob Dobbs: All of them were factors.
[2:05:06] Bob Dobbs: So
[2:05:08] Bob Dobbs: I have those four or five terms in mind when I'm making this.
[2:05:14] Bob Dobbs: So the five bodies are part of the five quadrants.
[2:05:18] Bob Dobbs: The four levels of exegesis,
[2:05:21] Bob Dobbs: five parts of rhetoric.
[2:05:22] Bob Dobbs: I'm putting all of those,
[2:05:25] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:05:25] Bob Dobbs: classical educational ideas in the chart.
[2:05:30] Bob Dobbs: So I was trying to put as much as possible,
[2:05:33] Bob Dobbs: but also limit it to basic laws or tensions.
[2:05:40] Bob Dobbs: So on the far right,
[2:05:41] Bob Dobbs: 1840 to 1900 is the tension between visual and kinetic spaces as figure to a ground of proprioceptive,
[2:05:51] Bob Dobbs: osmic,
[2:05:51] Bob Dobbs: and acoustic sensibilities.
[2:05:55] Bob Dobbs: You see?
[2:05:57] Bob Dobbs: And there was this guy who wrote a book.
[2:06:00] Bob Dobbs: in the
[2:06:01] Bob Dobbs: 90s where he used the terms officious state,
[2:06:07] Bob Dobbs: media state.
[2:06:10] Bob Dobbs: You see on the far right column,
[2:06:14] Bob Dobbs: the first word is italicized.
[2:06:15] Bob Dobbs: Gaia state,
[2:06:17] Bob Dobbs: Innis state,
[2:06:18] Bob Dobbs: incorporatius state.
[2:06:20] Bob Dobbs: So
[2:06:21] Bob Dobbs: I took that guy's ideas and fit them in there to help explain each phase.
[2:06:28] Bob Dobbs: As well as the cliches of phrases,
[2:06:35] Bob Dobbs: staying alive,
[2:06:36] Bob Dobbs: save the kidney.
[2:06:37] Bob Dobbs: Save the kidney was...
[2:06:40] Bob Dobbs: Julia Child portrayed on Saturday Night Live.
[2:06:43] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[2:06:44] Bob Dobbs: But see,
[2:06:46] Cameron McEwen: it's one thing to understand sort of what your thinking was and how it got fitted and all that sort of stuff.
[2:06:54] Cameron McEwen: It's another thing to think,
[2:06:56] Cameron McEwen: oh,
[2:06:57] Cameron McEwen: that captured it,
[2:07:00] Cameron McEwen: right?
[2:07:00] Cameron McEwen: So like when you take the Gaia State,
[2:07:04] Cameron McEwen: the Gilson State,
[2:07:05] Cameron McEwen: and the
[2:07:06] Cameron McEwen: Corporatia State,
[2:07:08] Cameron McEwen: Um,
[2:07:10] Cameron McEwen: Okay,
[2:07:12] Cameron McEwen: those things can be fitted into the eras,
[2:07:16] Cameron McEwen: but do they fit in because they're true,
[2:07:19] Cameron McEwen: or do they fit in because you happen to read that book instead of another book,
[2:07:26] Cameron McEwen: and you thought,
[2:07:26] Cameron McEwen: oh,
[2:07:26] Cameron McEwen: this is a good idea,
[2:07:28] Cameron McEwen: right?
[2:07:29] Cameron McEwen: So you might say it's the difference between an artist expressing
[2:07:43] Cameron McEwen: expressionism or expressing sort of what's there?
[2:07:51] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[2:07:51] Bob Dobbs: I was attempting to,
[2:07:53] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:07:54] Bob Dobbs: wager on what I thought were the ones that would have the best staying power,
[2:07:58] Bob Dobbs: even though they weren't doing too well at the time.
[2:08:02] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan was just starting to be revived in 95,
[2:08:06] Bob Dobbs: but I knew that
[2:08:08] Bob Dobbs: I felt new.
[2:08:10] Bob Dobbs: wagered that he would become even more significant.
[2:08:13] Bob Dobbs: And I would say he has in the cultural memory of the Android Meme.
[2:08:19] Bob Dobbs: He was retrieved during the Android Meme phase.
[2:08:23] Bob Dobbs: Have you ever seen this long essay I did on the six schools of media ecology?
[2:08:29] Bob Dobbs: Did you ever read that?
[2:08:31] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[2:08:32] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:08:33] Bob Dobbs: That's in mine too.
[2:08:35] Bob Dobbs: All the phases of McLuhan are different derivatives.
[2:08:40] Bob Dobbs: or extensions of McLuhan around the world.
[2:08:42] Cameron McEwen: There are many more schools than that now.
[2:08:48] Cameron McEwen: Yes.
[2:08:49] Cameron McEwen: It's like the 15 schools or something.
[2:08:52] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[2:08:54] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:08:54] Bob Dobbs: really.
[2:08:56] Bob Dobbs: But the Winnipeg school is the best school,
[2:08:58] Bob Dobbs: right?
[2:08:59] Bob Dobbs: We know that.
[2:08:59] Bob Dobbs: I agree.
[2:09:00] Bob Dobbs: Absolutely.
[2:09:04] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[2:09:05] Bob Dobbs: so I have each.
[2:09:07] Bob Dobbs: I like the aspects I bring in.
[2:09:09] Bob Dobbs: I have each.
[2:09:10] Bob Dobbs: of the four quadrants are a Shakespearean tragedy.
[2:09:12] Bob Dobbs: They all fail on something.
[2:09:16] Bob Dobbs: What did they fail?
[2:09:17] Bob Dobbs: Becoming well-known.
[2:09:19] Bob Dobbs: Is that success?
[2:09:20] Bob Dobbs: Not necessarily.
[2:09:22] Bob Dobbs: They all fail.
[2:09:26] Bob Dobbs: Each era favors a certain kind of activity,
[2:09:29] Bob Dobbs: politician or priest.
[2:09:33] Bob Dobbs: They're all subatomic particles.
[2:09:35] Bob Dobbs: That's the McLuhan quote.
[2:09:37] Bob Dobbs: We are super civilized and subatomic,
[2:09:40] Bob Dobbs: right?
[2:09:41] Bob Dobbs: So
[2:09:42] Bob Dobbs: I'm trying to include as many
[2:09:45] Bob Dobbs: William Irwin Thompson ideas in there,
[2:09:47] Bob Dobbs: a lot of LaRouche ideas,
[2:09:49] Bob Dobbs: a lot of Kroker ideas,
[2:09:51] Bob Dobbs: and McLuhan.
[2:09:53] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan would appear to be more ground than the rest because it's easy to talk about.
[2:10:02] Bob Dobbs: It's not so conceptual like LaRouche odd ideas.
[2:10:07] Bob Dobbs: He makes a big deal out of the platonic solids,
[2:10:09] Bob Dobbs: so they're in each quadrant.
[2:10:14] Cameron McEwen: But
[2:10:15] Cameron McEwen: I think
[2:10:16] Cameron McEwen: LaRouche is going to turn out to be an important figure just in terms of the fate of imperialism and colonialism in the contemporary world.
[2:10:33] Cameron McEwen: I think he's going to come back.
[2:10:36] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:10:36] Bob Dobbs: are you saying that he's a fighter of imperialism or a dupe of it?
[2:10:41] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[2:10:42] Cameron McEwen: it could be both,
[2:10:43] Cameron McEwen: I suppose.
[2:10:44] Cameron McEwen: At least the recognition is there,
[2:10:48] Cameron McEwen: and the recognition is very important.
[2:10:50] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:10:52] Bob Dobbs: his people would write about Trump.
[2:10:55] Bob Dobbs: They said,
[2:10:55] Bob Dobbs: Trump,
[2:10:55] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:10:56] Bob Dobbs: he's not an expert.
[2:10:57] Bob Dobbs: He's not a great mind,
[2:10:58] Bob Dobbs: but he was implementing LaRouche program.
[2:11:02] Bob Dobbs: They saw that.
[2:11:04] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[2:11:06] Cameron McEwen: his wife,
[2:11:07] Cameron McEwen: LaRouche wife,
[2:11:13] Cameron McEwen: she's taken these ideas a little bit further and I think in a pretty good direction.
[2:11:18] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:11:18] Bob Dobbs: and she is known as
[2:11:21] Bob Dobbs: Lady
[2:11:23] Bob Dobbs: Silk Road,
[2:11:24] Bob Dobbs: whatever that thing's called.
[2:11:25] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:11:25] Cameron McEwen: exactly.
[2:11:27] Bob Dobbs: She is known as that in China.
[2:11:30] Bob Dobbs: She's a major icon from the West for Chinese people.
[2:11:35] Bob Dobbs: She's the one who,
[2:11:36] Bob Dobbs: she and her husband laid it out,
[2:11:38] Bob Dobbs: the plan and the design in 96.
[2:11:41] Bob Dobbs: So they recognize her as the architectural underpinning source of their humanitarian gesture of the silk and belt thing.
[2:11:53] Bob Dobbs: But other people say...
[2:11:56] Bob Dobbs: What?
[2:11:57] Cameron McEwen: Bridge and belt,
[2:11:58] Cameron McEwen: I think it's called.
[2:11:59] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:11:59] Bob Dobbs: why am I saying silk?
[2:12:00] Bob Dobbs: It's not bridge.
[2:12:01] Bob Dobbs: It's silk and...
[2:12:03] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[2:12:03] Cameron McEwen: it was the Silk Road.
[2:12:05] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[2:12:05] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[2:12:05] Cameron McEwen: Now it's some modern iteration of that.
[2:12:11] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:12:12] Bob Dobbs: but I think...
[2:12:12] Bob Dobbs: Does it say silk and belt and what,
[2:12:17] Bob Dobbs: Carolyn?
[2:12:21] Bob Dobbs: Belt and Silk Road,
[2:12:22] Bob Dobbs: says Carolyn.
[2:12:22] Bob Dobbs: No,
[2:12:22] Bob Dobbs: I don't think it's that.
[2:12:24] Bob Dobbs: But
[2:12:24] Bob Dobbs: I think the word silk...
[2:12:25] Bob Dobbs: Do you think the word silk's in there,
[2:12:27] Bob Dobbs: Carolyn?
[2:12:28] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:12:28] Bob Dobbs: the word silk's in there,
[2:12:30] Bob Dobbs: but,
[2:12:30] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:12:31] Bob Dobbs: it's got some other words.
[2:12:32] Bob Dobbs: The point is that that's great propaganda for China,
[2:12:36] Bob Dobbs: but there's a whole school of thought saying,
[2:12:38] Bob Dobbs: wow,
[2:12:38] Bob Dobbs: they're digging their fingers and grips in countries all over the world through this fake international solution of the
[2:12:48] Bob Dobbs: Silk Road.
[2:12:48] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[2:12:49] Bob Dobbs: It's very controversial.
[2:12:51] Bob Dobbs: Absolutely.
[2:12:52] Bob Dobbs: And right now,
[2:12:53] Cameron McEwen: you know.
[2:12:55] Cameron McEwen: It's part of the.
[2:12:56] Cameron McEwen: what's going on with China or what's going on with anybody else,
[2:13:00] Cameron McEwen: we only see that in the black mirror.
[2:13:02] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:13:03] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[2:13:03] Cameron McEwen: So it's...
[2:13:04] Cameron McEwen: In a tick box.
[2:13:05] Cameron McEwen: You can't talk about new colonialism or any of that sort of stuff.
[2:13:09] Cameron McEwen: It's much more complicated than that.
[2:13:11] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[2:13:12] Cameron McEwen: Because we've got these gigantic propaganda machines that are much more real than what we happen to think about what China is doing.
[2:13:20] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[2:13:22] Bob Dobbs: Up till,
[2:13:22] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:13:23] Bob Dobbs: a year ago,
[2:13:24] Bob Dobbs: Um...
[2:13:25] Bob Dobbs: It seemed to be a pretty good idea,
[2:13:27] Bob Dobbs: and China looked pretty good in general terms.
[2:13:31] Bob Dobbs: But then,
[2:13:32] Bob Dobbs: if they caused the virus and chemical and biological warfare and all that,
[2:13:36] Bob Dobbs: man,
[2:13:37] Bob Dobbs: their stock is diving,
[2:13:39] Bob Dobbs: right?
[2:13:40] Bob Dobbs: And so,
[2:13:41] Bob Dobbs: all of a sudden,
[2:13:42] Bob Dobbs: hell goes a-doop of the Chinese.
[2:13:47] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[2:13:48] Cameron McEwen: well,
[2:13:50] Cameron McEwen: let me read a passage here to you.
[2:13:57] Cameron McEwen: It was in his mastery of the art process in terms of the stages of apprehension that enabled Joyce to install himself at the center of the creative process.
[2:14:09] Cameron McEwen: Whether it appears as mere individual sensation,
[2:14:13] Cameron McEwen: as collective hope or phobia,
[2:14:15] Cameron McEwen: as national myth-making of cultural norm functioning,
[2:14:21] Cameron McEwen: there is Joyce with cocked ear,
[2:14:23] Cameron McEwen: eye,
[2:14:23] Cameron McEwen: and nose at the center of the action.
[2:14:27] Bob Dobbs: There it is.
[2:14:28] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[2:14:28] Bob Dobbs: how many,
[2:14:29] Bob Dobbs: is there four aspects there?
[2:14:32] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[2:14:33] Cameron McEwen: there's individual sensation,
[2:14:35] Cameron McEwen: collective hope,
[2:14:36] Cameron McEwen: collective phobia,
[2:14:38] Cameron McEwen: national myth-making,
[2:14:39] Cameron McEwen: and cultural norm functioning.
[2:14:42] Cameron McEwen: So it can be four or it can be five.
[2:14:45] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[2:14:47] Bob Dobbs: He says collective hope or phobia,
[2:14:50] Bob Dobbs: which can be seen as one thing.
[2:14:52] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[2:14:52] Bob Dobbs: But you can be particular and say,
[2:14:54] Bob Dobbs: no,
[2:14:54] Bob Dobbs: it's five.
[2:14:55] Bob Dobbs: So great.
[2:14:55] Bob Dobbs: And where's that from?
[2:14:58] Cameron McEwen: From the explorations to notes on the media as art form.
[2:15:03] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[2:15:04] Bob Dobbs: it's not in...
[2:15:05] Bob Dobbs: There was this
[2:15:06] Bob Dobbs: Canadian Forum article called God Making Machines,
[2:15:10] Bob Dobbs: 1957 or so,
[2:15:12] Bob Dobbs: and Subliminal Subduction on a Project,
[2:15:15] Bob Dobbs: another title.
[2:15:16] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[2:15:17] Bob Dobbs: Those in that era.
[2:15:18] Bob Dobbs: I thought it came from those two,
[2:15:19] Bob Dobbs: but it's from exploration.
[2:15:20] Bob Dobbs: It was the same era,
[2:15:22] Bob Dobbs: but explorations.
[2:15:24] Bob Dobbs: Notes on the media as political art forms.
[2:15:26] Bob Dobbs: Is that what you said?
[2:15:28] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[2:15:28] Cameron McEwen: notes on the media as art forms,
[2:15:30] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[2:15:30] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:15:32] Bob Dobbs: that's where the first...
[2:15:33] Cameron McEwen: This is earlier than the ones you were thinking of.
[2:15:36] Bob Dobbs: That's right,
[2:15:36] Bob Dobbs: 55.
[2:15:38] Cameron McEwen: That's right,
[2:15:39] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[2:15:39] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:15:40] Bob Dobbs: the thing is that it's the first time he allows other ideas in,
[2:15:45] Bob Dobbs: so to speak.
[2:15:49] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[2:15:50] Bob Dobbs: it causes individual sensation,
[2:15:53] Bob Dobbs: collective phobia,
[2:15:55] Bob Dobbs: national myth-making.
[2:15:57] Bob Dobbs: They're political statements,
[2:15:58] Bob Dobbs: almost.
[2:16:00] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[2:16:01] Cameron McEwen: but
[2:16:02] Cameron McEwen: I don't think there's...
[2:16:05] Cameron McEwen: It's a nice turn of phrase here,
[2:16:07] Cameron McEwen: and it may be new that he creates a sort of a bouquet of them,
[2:16:16] Cameron McEwen: but I think you would find all of that stuff earlier if you look for it.
[2:16:22] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[2:16:23] Bob Dobbs: all of it in earlier...
[2:16:26] Cameron McEwen: places.
[2:16:28] Cameron McEwen: Earlier essays,
[2:16:29] Cameron McEwen: some of this stuff is already in essays in the early
[2:16:35] Bob Dobbs: 1940s. Yeah.
[2:16:36] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[2:16:37] Bob Dobbs: I looked it up and it says the Belt and Road Initiative,
[2:16:41] Bob Dobbs: known in Chinese.
[2:16:43] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[2:16:43] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[2:16:44] Cameron McEwen: Okay.
[2:16:44] Bob Dobbs: And formerly in English.
[2:16:45] Cameron McEwen: I said Belt and Bridge.
[2:16:46] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[2:16:47] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[2:16:48] Bob Dobbs: And known in Chinese and formerly in English as One Belt,
[2:16:50] Bob Dobbs: One Road,
[2:16:51] Bob Dobbs: or OBOR for short.
[2:16:53] Bob Dobbs: is a global infrastructure development strategy adopted by the Chinese government in 2013 to invest in nearly 70 countries and international organizations.
[2:17:03] Bob Dobbs: But then it says,
[2:17:05] Bob Dobbs: what is China's Silk Road?
[2:17:07] Bob Dobbs: The BRI,
[2:17:09] Bob Dobbs: Belt and Road Initiative,
[2:17:10] Bob Dobbs: comprises a Silk Road economic belt,
[2:17:14] Bob Dobbs: a transcontinental passage that links China with Southeast Asia,
[2:17:17] Bob Dobbs: South Asia,
[2:17:18] Bob Dobbs: Central Asia,
[2:17:18] Bob Dobbs: Russia,
[2:17:18] Bob Dobbs: and Europe by land,
[2:17:20] Bob Dobbs: and a
[2:17:20] Bob Dobbs: 21st century maritime Silk Road.
[2:17:23] Bob Dobbs: a sea route connecting China's coastal regions with Southeast and South Asia,
[2:17:27] Bob Dobbs: the South Pacific and the Middle East.
[2:17:29] Bob Dobbs: So they do bring silk back in there.
[2:17:33] Cameron McEwen: Oh,
[2:17:33] Cameron McEwen: definitely.
[2:17:34] Cameron McEwen: And they use the historical
[2:17:38] Cameron McEwen: Silk Road as a constant image of what's possible.
[2:17:43] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:17:44] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[2:17:44] Cameron McEwen: A sort of East-West cultural economic road.
[2:17:49] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:17:51] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[2:17:51] Bob Dobbs: So,
[2:17:51] Bob Dobbs: um,
[2:17:54] Bob Dobbs: So,
[2:17:55] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:17:56] Bob Dobbs: William Irwin Thompson,
[2:17:57] Bob Dobbs: he met with Frank Zingrone in the late
[2:17:59] Bob Dobbs: 90s. They were friends when they both got more interested in McLuhan in 1965 when McLuhan visited MIT and gave a lecture.
[2:18:08] Bob Dobbs: They both attended.
[2:18:09] Bob Dobbs: They were both professors there.
[2:18:10] Bob Dobbs: Then Zingrone goes to York and he gets a gig for
[2:18:14] Bob Dobbs: Thompson in York because Thompson wants to leave the States because of the Vietnam War tensions.
[2:18:21] Bob Dobbs: So he meets with
[2:18:23] Bob Dobbs: Frank in his office at York and they're looking at the Essential McLuhan book that Frank and Eric put out.
[2:18:34] Bob Dobbs: And it's selling in different countries.
[2:18:39] Bob Dobbs: It's doing well.
[2:18:41] Bob Dobbs: And
[2:18:41] Bob Dobbs: Tom's sitting there,
[2:18:43] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:18:45] Bob Dobbs: Frank told me,
[2:18:45] Bob Dobbs: he says,
[2:18:46] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:18:47] Bob Dobbs: maybe I should have got more into McLuhan because I can't get any of my books republished.
[2:18:52] Bob Dobbs: So he was despairing about how his writing career turned out compared to Frank's career.
[2:18:57] Bob Dobbs: At least at that point,
[2:18:58] Bob Dobbs: Frank was getting more attention than he was.
[2:19:01] Bob Dobbs: So we can't say that Thompson is a big figure right now,
[2:19:07] Bob Dobbs: like LaRouche was and may be retrieved.
[2:19:11] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan is.
[2:19:13] Bob Dobbs: Kroker,
[2:19:15] Bob Dobbs: his website is down,
[2:19:16] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:19:17] Bob Dobbs: and his wife died.
[2:19:19] Bob Dobbs: And she was an important co-creator of his works.
[2:19:22] Bob Dobbs: So it's Kroker in limbo right now.
[2:19:25] Bob Dobbs: Nowhere.
[2:19:26] Bob Dobbs: Maybe they're redesigning the website,
[2:19:28] Bob Dobbs: but it's very unusual that we don't have it right now.
[2:19:32] Bob Dobbs: That's called C-theory.
[2:19:35] Bob Dobbs: It was a major journal.
[2:19:39] Cameron McEwen: It was a good website,
[2:19:40] Cameron McEwen: too.
[2:19:40] Cameron McEwen: I enjoyed it.
[2:19:42] Cameron McEwen: But notice that
[2:19:44] Cameron McEwen: Peter Montgomery was another guy on Vancouver Island,
[2:19:47] Cameron McEwen: and his website disappeared when he died.
[2:19:51] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[2:19:52] Bob Dobbs: And he had a very good essay on the influences of each,
[2:19:57] Bob Dobbs: of Pound,
[2:19:58] Bob Dobbs: Elliott,
[2:19:59] Bob Dobbs: Joyce,
[2:20:00] Bob Dobbs: Yates,
[2:20:01] Bob Dobbs: and Lewis.
[2:20:03] Bob Dobbs: What they each contributed to McLuhan.
[2:20:05] Bob Dobbs: It wasn't the whole story,
[2:20:06] Bob Dobbs: but it was a good early essay.
[2:20:08] Bob Dobbs: Do you remember that?
[2:20:10] Cameron McEwen: No.
[2:20:10] Cameron McEwen: That's Montgomery?
[2:20:12] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:20:12] Bob Dobbs: If I have it,
[2:20:13] Bob Dobbs: I'll send it to you.
[2:20:14] Cameron McEwen: I'll look it up.
[2:20:15] Cameron McEwen: All right.
[2:20:15] Cameron McEwen: Good.
[2:20:18] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:20:18] Bob Dobbs: it was on the,
[2:20:19] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[2:20:19] Bob Dobbs: his website went down.
[2:20:21] Bob Dobbs: Did you?
[2:20:22] Bob Dobbs: You would know about him way back there because he was a good friend of George Sanderson,
[2:20:26] Bob Dobbs: right?
[2:20:28] Cameron McEwen: Maybe,
[2:20:29] Cameron McEwen: maybe.
[2:20:32] Bob Dobbs: The McLuhan list that George started in 94,
[2:20:36] Bob Dobbs: the forum we all talked on,
[2:20:39] Bob Dobbs: he handed it off to Peter Montgomery by
[2:20:42] Bob Dobbs: 99 or 98.
[2:20:44] Bob Dobbs: After four or five years,
[2:20:46] Bob Dobbs: George stopped being involved in it.
[2:20:48] Bob Dobbs: So there's the friendship and respect.
[2:20:51] Bob Dobbs: he gave it to Peter.
[2:20:54] Bob Dobbs: And then we drove Peter crazy,
[2:20:56] Bob Dobbs: so he quit.
[2:20:59] Bob Dobbs: Me and Mark Sullivan.
[2:21:00] Bob Dobbs: And he quit by 2002 and gave it to Michael Edmonds,
[2:21:06] Bob Dobbs: who was a co-director at the Coach House with Derrick and had access to U of T for the U of T to take it over from St.
[2:21:14] Bob Dobbs: of X.
[2:21:16] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[2:21:17] Cameron McEwen: but it ended up down in...
[2:21:20] Cameron McEwen: Baltimore,
[2:21:21] Cameron McEwen: didn't it?
[2:21:22] Cameron McEwen: At Johns Hopkins or something?
[2:21:24] Bob Dobbs: No,
[2:21:25] Bob Dobbs: it...
[2:21:26] Bob Dobbs: We all remained with Michael and then died with Michael,
[2:21:32] Bob Dobbs: with Peter Doff.
[2:21:33] Bob Dobbs: And,
[2:21:33] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:21:34] Bob Dobbs: you were on there.
[2:21:36] Bob Dobbs: We were dancing on each other's toes on that site.
[2:21:40] Bob Dobbs: But there was somebody in the state who did a spinoff.
[2:21:44] Bob Dobbs: And I don't think that...
[2:21:45] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[2:21:45] Cameron McEwen: that may be what I'm thinking of.
[2:21:46] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:21:46] Bob Dobbs: it never went anywhere.
[2:21:48] Bob Dobbs: Not many people joined it.
[2:21:51] Bob Dobbs: It was just another...
[2:21:53] Cameron McEwen: The professional McLuhan guys...
[2:21:56] Cameron McEwen: I thought were so depressing,
[2:21:58] Cameron McEwen: so depressing for me personally,
[2:22:01] Cameron McEwen: that I just stayed there for about a year and then I thought,
[2:22:04] Cameron McEwen: this is ridiculous.
[2:22:07] Cameron McEwen: I didn't mind at all the posts that you and Mark were making,
[2:22:13] Cameron McEwen: but posts from the media college's guys were just ridiculous.
[2:22:18] Cameron McEwen: I just thought it's a waste of time.
[2:22:20] Cameron McEwen: I'm not going to argue with them.
[2:22:22] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[2:22:23] Bob Dobbs: and you're talking about...
[2:22:25] Bob Dobbs: Michael Edmonds list,
[2:22:26] Bob Dobbs: not the one in the States,
[2:22:28] Bob Dobbs: not the spinoff.
[2:22:30] Cameron McEwen: I don't really know.
[2:22:32] Cameron McEwen: All I know is that you and Mark were there,
[2:22:34] Cameron McEwen: and then Mark got thrown off.
[2:22:37] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[2:22:37] Bob Dobbs: that's the media ecology list.
[2:22:40] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[2:22:40] Bob Dobbs: Were you on that?
[2:22:42] Cameron McEwen: Yes,
[2:22:43] Cameron McEwen: but I wasn't then.
[2:22:44] Cameron McEwen: If that's the media ecology list where Mark got thrown off,
[2:22:48] Cameron McEwen: then the other one I was never a part of.
[2:22:50] Bob Dobbs: No,
[2:22:50] Bob Dobbs: he got thrown off the media ecology list in 99.
[2:22:53] Bob Dobbs: I got thrown off in.
[2:22:54] Bob Dobbs: 2000 but Mark eventually got thrown off
[2:23:00] Bob Dobbs: Peter Montgomery's list and
[2:23:03] Bob Dobbs: I was pretty close to being thrown off but then he gave up and Michael took over and so
[2:23:09] Cameron McEwen: Mark and I were allowed to continue yeah well Michael is a very specific figure yeah and so yeah you would come and be there and then disappear
[2:23:23] Bob Dobbs: I was
[2:23:23] Bob Dobbs: Quite aware of your absence and figured out why.
[2:23:29] Bob Dobbs: But you never posted on the media calls you list,
[2:23:33] Bob Dobbs: I don't think.
[2:23:36] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[2:23:37] Cameron McEwen: I really don't know which list is which.
[2:23:39] Cameron McEwen: All I know is that
[2:23:41] Cameron McEwen: I did post primarily on the question of time on one of them.
[2:23:48] Cameron McEwen: And I just didn't think it was.
[2:23:54] Cameron McEwen: a productive use of my time to stay there,
[2:23:59] Cameron McEwen: and so I stopped.
[2:24:00] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[2:24:02] Bob Dobbs: I didn't stop.
[2:24:03] Bob Dobbs: I always stayed and put up with it.
[2:24:05] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[2:24:06] Cameron McEwen: you have more energy than I have.
[2:24:07] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[2:24:08] Bob Dobbs: You had things to do.
[2:24:09] Bob Dobbs: I didn't have anything to do.
[2:24:10] Bob Dobbs: I was waiting for my chart to unfold.
[2:24:16] Bob Dobbs: So what do you think?
[2:24:20] Bob Dobbs: That's a good point to stop at.
[2:24:23] Cameron McEwen: Yes,
[2:24:23] Cameron McEwen: I do think that.
[2:24:24] Cameron McEwen: And at this point,
[2:24:27] Cameron McEwen: we could go on to your book,
[2:24:29] Cameron McEwen: but an alternate thing we might do is,
[2:24:35] Cameron McEwen: since we now have a kind of background to what you're up to in the book,
[2:24:42] Cameron McEwen: what we might do is look at a couple of my posts and discuss them to get the background of where I'll be coming from.
[2:24:52] Cameron McEwen: in the discussion with you of your book.
[2:24:54] Bob Dobbs: No,
[2:24:55] Bob Dobbs: great.
[2:24:56] Bob Dobbs: I do want to highlight some more resonances in the chart.
[2:25:02] Bob Dobbs: I haven't finished that.
[2:25:04] Bob Dobbs: But yeah,
[2:25:04] Bob Dobbs: we'll bring your stuff in.
[2:25:05] Cameron McEwen: Keep that in mind for next time.
[2:25:07] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[2:25:08] Bob Dobbs: But you have come to sort of a general understanding or you've come to a question about my chart,
[2:25:16] Bob Dobbs: right,
[2:25:16] Bob Dobbs: that you wouldn't have had before.
[2:25:19] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[2:25:19] Cameron McEwen: I think,
[2:25:19] Cameron McEwen: yes,
[2:25:20] Cameron McEwen: that would be more for you to judge than me.
[2:25:22] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:25:23] Cameron McEwen: But if you're happy with what I've had to say or what I've had to question,
[2:25:31] Cameron McEwen: then that's good.
[2:25:33] Bob Dobbs: No,
[2:25:33] Bob Dobbs: that was very good what you were saying.
[2:25:36] Bob Dobbs: So,
[2:25:37] Bob Dobbs: but there's,
[2:25:38] Bob Dobbs: I would continue to answer your question about whether it's Bob's personal projection or something part of the collective,
[2:25:45] Bob Dobbs: the dialect of the tribe.
[2:25:47] Bob Dobbs: I'll try to prove the tribal aspects of it a little more.
[2:25:52] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[2:25:53] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[2:25:54] Bob Dobbs: All right.
[2:25:55] Bob Dobbs: Great talking to you,
[2:25:56] Bob Dobbs: Cameron.
[2:25:56] Bob Dobbs: Thank you very much.
[2:25:57] Cameron McEwen: Same here,
[2:25:57] Cameron McEwen: Bob.
[2:25:58] Bob Dobbs: We'll talk soon.
[2:25:59] Cameron McEwen: Talk to you later.
[2:26:00] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[2:26:00] Bob Dobbs: then.
[2:26:01] Bob Dobbs: Bye.
[2:26:02] Cameron McEwen: Bye-bye.