Dialogue 14 — Transcript

[00:02] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[00:03] Bob Dobbs: this is Bob Dobbs.

[00:04] Bob Dobbs: I'm with

[00:05] Bob Dobbs: Cameron McEwen for episode number 14 of our ongoing series,

[00:12] Bob Dobbs: and we're looking at my Tiny Note chart,

[00:16] Bob Dobbs: continuing from last week and the week before.

[00:20] Bob Dobbs: So,

[00:21] Bob Dobbs: assuming the listener has caught up to where we are,

[00:28] Bob Dobbs: what I wanted to say was we left off

[00:32] Bob Dobbs: For example,

[00:32] Bob Dobbs: in the Holeopathic Radio slash Satellite,

[00:36] Bob Dobbs: you have 89 is the first word underneath it.

[00:41] Bob Dobbs: So that's part of the gene.

[00:53] Bob Dobbs: And you'll see in the same position another part.

[00:59] Bob Dobbs: If you go down to the Holy of Paths television satellite,

[01:01] Bob Dobbs: you'll see in the same position,

[01:03] Bob Dobbs: the first word underneath,

[01:06] Bob Dobbs: you will see guanine.

[01:10] Bob Dobbs: Then you'll go down to the Holy of Paths computer slash satellite,

[01:14] Bob Dobbs: you'll see thymine.

[01:16] Bob Dobbs: And then Holy of Paths satellite,

[01:19] Bob Dobbs: first word underneath that title,

[01:21] Bob Dobbs: cytosine.

[01:22] Bob Dobbs: So that's your four parts of your DNA.

[01:27] Bob Dobbs: But the fifth one under...

[01:29] Bob Dobbs: Anthropomorphic Physical,

[01:31] Bob Dobbs: you will see in that first position,

[01:33] Bob Dobbs: far left column,

[01:36] Bob Dobbs: uracil.

[01:37] Bob Dobbs: That means we're now dealing with RNA.

[01:41] Bob Dobbs: So

[01:44] Bob Dobbs: RNA is known to be part of the messaging or information processes of the gene.

[01:54] Bob Dobbs: So...

[02:01] Bob Dobbs: I think

[02:02] Bob Dobbs: I started to get that from

[02:06] Bob Dobbs: Baudrillard. I think Baudrillard talked about the recombinant

[02:11] Bob Dobbs: RNA and mentioning the RNA more than the DNA.

[02:17] Bob Dobbs: So I want to...

[02:18] Cameron McEwen: I think you talk about that a little bit in the book.

[02:24] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[02:25] Bob Dobbs: yes.

[02:26] Bob Dobbs: And the point is that...

[02:30] Bob Dobbs: This chart is about the messaging of media.

[02:38] Bob Dobbs: So I want to have the cell parts for the first four quadrants,

[02:50] Bob Dobbs: and then

[02:52] Bob Dobbs: I have this part indicating the

[02:57] Bob Dobbs: RNA.

[02:59] Bob Dobbs: Let me just put this in here.

[03:04] Cameron McEwen: And the vaccines for COVID are RNA-based,

[03:13] Cameron McEwen: at least the ones that work.

[03:16] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[03:16] Cameron McEwen: So you're looking ahead here to something,

[03:20] Cameron McEwen: or at least

[03:23] Cameron McEwen: I guess you're looking ahead both to your own stuff and to the...

[03:29] Cameron McEwen: vaccines,

[03:31] Cameron McEwen: and with the vaccines at least,

[03:33] Cameron McEwen: there's a great question of whether or not the

[03:38] Cameron McEwen: RNA messaging to DNA is a good idea in the long run.

[03:47] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[03:47] Bob Dobbs: this is 1995,

[03:52] Bob Dobbs: and

[03:53] Bob Dobbs: I'm not a scientist at that point,

[03:56] Bob Dobbs: and I might think in terms of DNA.

[04:00] Bob Dobbs: But I shifted to

[04:02] Bob Dobbs: RNA and that became very appropriate because when we started to talk to

[04:10] Bob Dobbs: ION in 2009 and 2010,

[04:15] Bob Dobbs: ION stressed the importance of the RNA over the DNA.

[04:19] Bob Dobbs: And our first product,

[04:21] Bob Dobbs: the RNA drops.

[04:27] Bob Dobbs: They affected the RNA,

[04:28] Bob Dobbs: which affected chromosome 14,

[04:30] Bob Dobbs: which then altered the DNA.

[04:34] Bob Dobbs: And so Carolyn learned a lot more about the RNA at that time and thought more about it.

[04:42] Cameron McEwen: At which time?

[04:43] Bob Dobbs: About 2010.

[04:46] Cameron McEwen: Okay,

[04:46] Cameron McEwen: so you're talking 15 years later.

[04:50] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[04:51] Bob Dobbs: And,

[04:52] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[04:52] Bob Dobbs: Ian shows up 2009.

[04:54] Bob Dobbs: And I had based the chart on the mirror technology,

[05:00] Bob Dobbs: the injection of potentizer herbs.

[05:06] Bob Dobbs: In the acupuncture points.

[05:09] Bob Dobbs: So there was...

[05:11] Cameron McEwen: You had based it on the mere analogy,

[05:17] Cameron McEwen: if I could say,

[05:18] Cameron McEwen: but that's four.

[05:21] Cameron McEwen: So then by going to the five,

[05:25] Cameron McEwen: you were already beyond the original organizing principle.

[05:32] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[05:32] Bob Dobbs: I was thinking of my role interfacing between...

[05:36] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan,

[05:37] Bob Dobbs: LaRouche,

[05:38] Bob Dobbs: Thompson,

[05:39] Bob Dobbs: and Kroker.

[05:40] Bob Dobbs: Also,

[05:41] Bob Dobbs: the different analog media in each quadrant,

[05:45] Bob Dobbs: which we'll get to in a minute.

[05:46] Bob Dobbs: But I wanted to point out that

[05:49] Bob Dobbs: Carolyn started thinking and learning a lot about the RNA from

[05:54] Bob Dobbs: ION.

[05:56] Bob Dobbs: And within a few years,

[05:58] Bob Dobbs: a lot of other scientists,

[06:04] Bob Dobbs: like in Science Magazine,

[06:07] Bob Dobbs: they started emphasizing RNA more and more.

[06:10] Bob Dobbs: So

[06:11] Bob Dobbs: Ian said that Carolyn was on the leading edge of the

[06:16] Bob Dobbs: RNA and it prompted more and more attention to the RNA.

[06:20] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[06:21] Bob Dobbs: 10 years later,

[06:23] Bob Dobbs: RNA is like they talk about in chocolate bars.

[06:26] Bob Dobbs: This has got RNA.

[06:27] Bob Dobbs: Have you noticed that?

[06:30] Cameron McEwen: Sure.

[06:31] Cameron McEwen: I think that's because of the

[06:32] Cameron McEwen: COVID vaccines.

[06:34] Bob Dobbs: No,

[06:34] Bob Dobbs: no.

[06:34] Bob Dobbs: This is like five years ago.

[06:37] Bob Dobbs: The word,

[06:39] Bob Dobbs: the RNA function in the cell,

[06:43] Bob Dobbs: the gene,

[06:44] Bob Dobbs: was way more prominent in pop culture than it was in 2010.

[06:52] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[06:52] Cameron McEwen: sure.

[06:53] Cameron McEwen: I think that's because people started to see that there were environmental factors to

[07:04] Cameron McEwen: DNA.

[07:06] Cameron McEwen: There's a technical name for that,

[07:07] Cameron McEwen: but I forget what it is,

[07:10] Cameron McEwen: that were very important in the expression of DNA.

[07:17] Cameron McEwen: And

[07:18] Cameron McEwen: RNA was certainly a big part of anti-environment.

[07:22] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[07:24] Bob Dobbs: it was the knowledge that people had of ourselves started to emphasize the RNA over the last 10 years more and more.

[07:33] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[07:34] Cameron McEwen: that's right.

[07:35] Cameron McEwen: The co-anesthetic environment.

[07:38] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[07:38] Bob Dobbs: So in that sense,

[07:40] Bob Dobbs: I was lucky to emphasize the RNA in the Dobbs quadrant.

[07:47] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[07:47] Bob Dobbs: So in that position,

[07:50] Bob Dobbs: right under the title of each quadrant,

[07:51] Bob Dobbs: you have the parts of the cell.

[07:57] Bob Dobbs: Then you will,

[07:59] Bob Dobbs: underneath in the LaRouche quadrant,

[08:02] Bob Dobbs: holeopathic greater satellite,

[08:03] Bob Dobbs: you've got a number seven.

[08:05] Bob Dobbs: And then you go down television,

[08:06] Bob Dobbs: same position,

[08:07] Bob Dobbs: underneath Guinean,

[08:08] Bob Dobbs: you have 22.

[08:10] Bob Dobbs: And then 18 in that position.

[08:13] Bob Dobbs: So all these words are lined up,

[08:16] Bob Dobbs: and once you know that it's repeating the order,

[08:19] Bob Dobbs: it's easy to follow once you see that,

[08:22] Bob Dobbs: right?

[08:22] Bob Dobbs: So the third word down is a movie,

[08:26] Bob Dobbs: The Great Escape.

[08:28] Bob Dobbs: Television Satellite or the McLuhan Quadrant is blow-up and easy rider.

[08:33] Bob Dobbs: you

[08:33] Bob Dobbs: If you want to see the phases,

[08:36] Bob Dobbs: you just take a position in the column and see what words are in the same position in the next quadrant below.

[08:46] Bob Dobbs: So the sports heroes go from Mickey Mantle to Gordie Howe to Wilt Chamberlain to Jim Brown and then Wayne Gretzky and Magic Johnson.

[08:58] Bob Dobbs: I added two figures in the Dobbs quadrant.

[09:02] Bob Dobbs: rather than just one,

[09:04] Bob Dobbs: just one athlete.

[09:06] Bob Dobbs: So in the next column,

[09:13] Bob Dobbs: going to the right,

[09:15] Bob Dobbs: right beside Holeopathic

[09:16] Bob Dobbs: Radio Satellite,

[09:17] Bob Dobbs: that's when you have opposite 89,

[09:22] Bob Dobbs: you have newspaper.

[09:24] Bob Dobbs: And in the McLuhan Quadrant,

[09:25] Bob Dobbs: electric media is the top name in that column.

[09:30] Bob Dobbs: Underneath the...

[09:31] Bob Dobbs: bigger,

[09:32] Bob Dobbs: darker words,

[09:34] Bob Dobbs: printed book,

[09:36] Bob Dobbs: movie,

[09:38] Bob Dobbs: and magazine slash satellite.

[09:42] Bob Dobbs: So the Dobbs quadrant,

[09:45] Bob Dobbs: because I was like the

[09:47] Bob Dobbs: RNA interfacing the different parts of the cell,

[09:54] Bob Dobbs: I saw the magazine served that role,

[09:57] Bob Dobbs: say Time magazine.

[09:59] Bob Dobbs: They would cover all kinds of...

[10:01] Bob Dobbs: of the modern electronic culture.

[10:06] Bob Dobbs: Different categories,

[10:07] Bob Dobbs: politics,

[10:07] Bob Dobbs: education,

[10:09] Bob Dobbs: nation,

[10:11] Bob Dobbs: sports,

[10:11] Bob Dobbs: movies.

[10:12] Bob Dobbs: So

[10:13] Bob Dobbs: I made magazine the integrating medium.

[10:18] Cameron McEwen: But

[10:20] Cameron McEwen: I'd just like to emphasize the word made there.

[10:24] Cameron McEwen: You said I made magazine the integrating medium.

[10:31] Cameron McEwen: It seems to me that all of...

[10:35] Cameron McEwen: the labels that you're talking about here can be seen as saying something like you might think about this matter under

[10:50] Cameron McEwen: this heading,

[10:53] Bob Dobbs: right?

[10:56] Cameron McEwen: There's a notable difference between that kind of suggestion where um

[11:05] Cameron McEwen: You have to kind of follow what you were thinking,

[11:10] Cameron McEwen: not only about some specific matter,

[11:13] Cameron McEwen: but what was going on in the whole chart.

[11:17] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[11:17] Cameron McEwen: There's quite a big difference between that and the way science works,

[11:23] Cameron McEwen: right?

[11:23] Cameron McEwen: Because science doesn't say you might think about this in these terms or something like that,

[11:28] Cameron McEwen: except on its very leading edge.

[11:30] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[11:30] Cameron McEwen: It does think like that.

[11:32] Cameron McEwen: But in everyday science...

[11:36] Cameron McEwen: it's not a question of labels and opinions and where this might be.

[11:41] Cameron McEwen: They're dealing with things that are fixed.

[11:44] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[11:45] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[11:47] Cameron McEwen: And so it seems to me that it's important to think about the kind of method that you're dealing with in the Tiny Note chart where

[12:03] Cameron McEwen: it's

[12:05] Cameron McEwen: more like the cliche of art than it is like the cliche of science.

[12:10] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[12:11] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[12:12] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[12:12] Cameron McEwen: And to me,

[12:15] Cameron McEwen: it's like an attempt on your part to both organize where you were at the time,

[12:23] Cameron McEwen: 1995,

[12:25] Cameron McEwen: and an attempt to feel your way forward sort of tentatively.

[12:32] Cameron McEwen: Your antennae are out.

[12:34] Cameron McEwen: And you're trying to figure out how that 1995 position precipitates something else.

[12:44] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[12:45] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[12:46] Bob Dobbs: so Innis second column from the left,

[12:52] Bob Dobbs: I have subatomic particles.

[12:55] Bob Dobbs: The LaRouche quadrant is Giedion.

[12:57] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan is Mason.

[12:59] Bob Dobbs: And you just keep going down looking for that position in the...

[13:03] Bob Dobbs: in the quadrant,

[13:04] Bob Dobbs: so at the top it's baryon in the Thompson quadrant,

[13:07] Bob Dobbs: discarnate in the

[13:09] Bob Dobbs: Kroker quadrant,

[13:10] Bob Dobbs: and demon nuclei in the Dobbs quadrant.

[13:13] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[13:13] Bob Dobbs: I got those five subatomic categories from a book reviewing science in all kinds of fields by a guy named John Brockman,

[13:29] Bob Dobbs: who was a student of McLuhan.

[13:32] Bob Dobbs: New York literary agent who got very involved with studying McLuhan in 1969.

[13:40] Bob Dobbs: He spent a weekend reading Bucky Fuller,

[13:44] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan,

[13:45] Bob Dobbs: and all these different things due to the influence of Girard Stern,

[13:49] Bob Dobbs: who was on page 198 from Cliché to archetype,

[13:53] Bob Dobbs: or 200,

[13:54] Bob Dobbs: but either 198 or 200.

[13:59] Bob Dobbs: And John Brockman...

[14:00] Bob Dobbs: He produced a book that weekend called By the Late John Brockman,

[14:04] Bob Dobbs: and it made a little splash.

[14:06] Bob Dobbs: But that was the kind of ideas he came up with,

[14:10] Bob Dobbs: processing McLuhan and

[14:12] Bob Dobbs: Bucky Fuller.

[14:15] Bob Dobbs: He had an article...

[14:19] Cameron McEwen: Doing in a weekend what actually takes

[14:22] Cameron McEwen: 20 or 30 years.

[14:24] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[14:26] Bob Dobbs: He was a manager,

[14:28] Bob Dobbs: businessman.

[14:30] Bob Dobbs: But Gerd got him thinking intellectually,

[14:33] Bob Dobbs: and it led to this weekend where he was crash-coursing himself and trying to figure out stuff.

[14:42] Bob Dobbs: But he did an article on subatomic particles within the book.

[14:46] Bob Dobbs: The book was called Einstein,

[14:48] Bob Dobbs: Wittgenstein,

[14:51] Bob Dobbs: and a couple of other Steins.

[14:56] Cameron McEwen: So I thought you said before the book was...

[14:59] Cameron McEwen: titled by the late John Brockman,

[15:02] Cameron McEwen: but that was the author?

[15:05] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[15:05] Bob Dobbs: that was the author,

[15:06] Bob Dobbs: and that was his first book.

[15:09] Bob Dobbs: I should have said,

[15:10] Bob Dobbs: but in the mid-80s,

[15:11] Bob Dobbs: 85,

[15:11] Bob Dobbs: 86,

[15:12] Bob Dobbs: he did a second book.

[15:15] Bob Dobbs: And that's the one Einstein,

[15:18] Bob Dobbs: Wittgenstein,

[15:20] Bob Dobbs: Gertrude Stein,

[15:21] Bob Dobbs: and someone else.

[15:23] Bob Dobbs: And so he was doing a survey of a lot of sciences and that.

[15:28] Bob Dobbs: Because as a literary agent,

[15:31] Bob Dobbs: did you ever hear of the third wave in popular science books?

[15:37] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[15:38] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[15:38] Bob Dobbs: he was a literary agent that got that going.

[15:43] Bob Dobbs: He would meet the...

[15:44] Bob Dobbs: the Fritjof Capra's the let's see Fritjof Capra and the dancing wooly masters yeah those kind of books yeah sure usually professors and he became an agent for William Irwin Thompson also but

[16:04] Bob Dobbs: the subatomic particles I wasn't up on on the hadron and demon nuclei but his essay on that part of his Einstein book.

[16:14] Bob Dobbs: gave me those five categories.

[16:16] Bob Dobbs: So that's where I got them from.

[16:18] Bob Dobbs: Demon nuclei didn't last.

[16:21] Bob Dobbs: That wasn't around,

[16:22] Bob Dobbs: I think,

[16:22] Bob Dobbs: five or ten years later.

[16:24] Bob Dobbs: I never saw anybody continue talking about demon nuclei.

[16:28] Bob Dobbs: It was showing the fad in science,

[16:32] Bob Dobbs: the fad element of science.

[16:34] Bob Dobbs: So demon nuclei was an idea of a particular kind of particle in the mid-'80s,

[16:40] Bob Dobbs: but it wasn't around,

[16:41] Bob Dobbs: it seemed.

[16:43] Bob Dobbs: Any I came across 10 years later.

[16:45] Bob Dobbs: So I also have a middle column with the monad,

[16:53] Bob Dobbs: dyad,

[16:53] Bob Dobbs: triad,

[16:54] Bob Dobbs: tetrad,

[16:54] Bob Dobbs: pentad.

[16:55] Bob Dobbs: But note,

[16:56] Bob Dobbs: I have a dyad is in the third position rather than underneath monad.

[17:03] Bob Dobbs: Sequentially,

[17:04] Bob Dobbs: it should be monad,

[17:05] Bob Dobbs: dyad,

[17:06] Bob Dobbs: triad.

[17:07] Bob Dobbs: But because three was McLuhan favorite number,

[17:12] Bob Dobbs: according to Marge Stewart and other people,

[17:15] Bob Dobbs: the McLuhan quadrant,

[17:16] Bob Dobbs: which was in the second position,

[17:17] Bob Dobbs: had to be triad.

[17:19] Bob Dobbs: And

[17:20] Bob Dobbs: Thompson, he was a mystical,

[17:25] Bob Dobbs: dialectical thinker,

[17:27] Bob Dobbs: so he was dyad.

[17:29] Bob Dobbs: And

[17:30] Bob Dobbs: Kroker was tetrad.

[17:33] Bob Dobbs: And myself was pentad,

[17:35] Bob Dobbs: which was the tetrad done by the Android Meme.

[17:41] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[17:44] Cameron McEwen: Let me ask you a couple of questions.

[17:46] Cameron McEwen: One is with

[17:49] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan and the triad,

[17:54] Cameron McEwen: you said that was his favorite number,

[17:56] Cameron McEwen: so he had to be triad.

[17:59] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[18:00] Cameron McEwen: What's the force of had to be,

[18:04] Cameron McEwen: right?

[18:04] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[18:06] Cameron McEwen: does that mean anything more than some idea flashed through your head?

[18:11] Cameron McEwen: And you said,

[18:12] Cameron McEwen: okay,

[18:12] Cameron McEwen: and wrote it down?

[18:14] Bob Dobbs: No,

[18:15] Bob Dobbs: I want to get to pentad.

[18:17] Bob Dobbs: So something had to be tetrad,

[18:20] Bob Dobbs: another quadrant had to be dyad,

[18:21] Bob Dobbs: triad,

[18:22] Bob Dobbs: and the fifth one monad.

[18:24] Bob Dobbs: It's the order I'm talking about.

[18:26] Cameron McEwen: I understand that.

[18:30] Cameron McEwen: But then you say,

[18:31] Cameron McEwen: okay,

[18:31] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan is three,

[18:34] Cameron McEwen: Thompson is two.

[18:36] Cameron McEwen: What's the force of that connection?

[18:41] Cameron McEwen: beyond you just authorizing it,

[18:47] Cameron McEwen: specifying it.

[18:49] Bob Dobbs: Since McLuhan developed the tetrad,

[18:55] Bob Dobbs: his quadrant is triad,

[18:57] Bob Dobbs: but he is actually operating from the fourth level,

[19:01] Bob Dobbs: the tetrad.

[19:02] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[19:02] Bob Dobbs: LaRouche was a monist,

[19:05] Bob Dobbs: very influenced by Leibniz,

[19:06] Bob Dobbs: so he actually was very...

[19:09] Bob Dobbs: politically dialectical.

[19:11] Bob Dobbs: So he was actually from a two level.

[19:14] Bob Dobbs: So his figure was monad,

[19:17] Bob Dobbs: but his ground was two.

[19:18] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan figure was three,

[19:20] Bob Dobbs: but his ground was four.

[19:21] Bob Dobbs: Thompson's figure was dyad,

[19:26] Bob Dobbs: and therefore his ground was three.

[19:29] Bob Dobbs: And

[19:30] Bob Dobbs: Kroker figure is four,

[19:32] Bob Dobbs: tetrad,

[19:34] Bob Dobbs: but he was pointing to the Android Meme.

[19:36] Bob Dobbs: So he was pointing to the pentad.

[19:39] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[19:39] Bob Dobbs: my figure is Tetrad,

[19:41] Bob Dobbs: but my ground is the Decad.

[19:43] Bob Dobbs: See?

[19:44] Bob Dobbs: Remember,

[19:45] Bob Dobbs: I'm pointing off the chart to the Decad,

[19:48] Bob Dobbs: the HEX advertisement,

[19:50] Bob Dobbs: it says.

[19:51] Bob Dobbs: So each middle column in each quadrant is the figure,

[19:56] Bob Dobbs: and it's implying the next number.

[20:01] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[20:02] Cameron McEwen: What's another question at this point?

[20:06] Cameron McEwen: Because

[20:07] Cameron McEwen: I've been...

[20:08] Cameron McEwen: confused about it the whole time we've been talking about the chart.

[20:12] Cameron McEwen: What is the difference between the Android Meme and the Anthropomorphic Physical?

[20:22] Bob Dobbs: The Android Meme is the chip body level.

[20:27] Bob Dobbs: So the Lewis quadrant is chemical body.

[20:31] Bob Dobbs: The Thompson quadrant is the astrobody level.

[20:36] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan is the TV body level because he was properly known as the TV.

[20:42] Bob Dobbs: analyst.

[20:43] Bob Dobbs: And then

[20:45] Bob Dobbs: Kroker is the Postman 90s chip body philosopher.

[20:51] Bob Dobbs: The Anthropomorphic Physical is the Dobbs quadrant,

[20:55] Bob Dobbs: which is the ground for the other four quadrants,

[21:01] Bob Dobbs: so that each quadrant is an Anthropomorphic Physical projection anti-environment.

[21:09] Bob Dobbs: So the first four are um

[21:13] Bob Dobbs: humans finding human qualities in technology.

[21:19] Bob Dobbs: Another aspect

[21:20] Bob Dobbs: I should say that I mean is each quadrant is a cyborg,

[21:27] Bob Dobbs: but Dobbs is the level of projecting cyborg phenomena.

[21:38] Bob Dobbs: So because the entomological physical is the mystery body,

[21:44] Bob Dobbs: the unknown factor,

[21:46] Bob Dobbs: then we don't know if it contains the Anthropomorphic Physical.

[21:52] Bob Dobbs: What is it?

[21:53] Bob Dobbs: What is the mystery body?

[21:55] Bob Dobbs: How much are we something else rather than what we imagine as human?

[22:04] Cameron McEwen: When you talk about projecting at the

[22:09] Cameron McEwen: Dobbs level,

[22:11] Cameron McEwen: how is that different from...

[22:14] Cameron McEwen: the expression of the Anthropomorphic Physical in the four anti-environment above it.

[22:28] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[22:29] Bob Dobbs: Dobbs is the ground.

[22:31] Bob Dobbs: Dobbs is the bottom right-hand corner,

[22:33] Bob Dobbs: Rumpelstiltskin.

[22:34] Bob Dobbs: And 1960 to 1990 is the dates in the Dobbs quadrant.

[22:42] Bob Dobbs: So.

[22:48] Bob Dobbs: The idea is that Dobbs swallows the previous four.

[22:52] Bob Dobbs: So this explains why in each quadrant,

[22:56] Bob Dobbs: in the middle column,

[23:00] Bob Dobbs: under Monad,

[23:01] Bob Dobbs: you'll have a Shakespeare play,

[23:04] Bob Dobbs: Macbeth.

[23:04] Bob Dobbs: That's a tragedy.

[23:08] Bob Dobbs: Triad,

[23:08] Bob Dobbs: the McLuhan quadrant,

[23:10] Bob Dobbs: has another tragedy,

[23:11] Bob Dobbs: King Lear.

[23:12] Bob Dobbs: It's in the same position in each.

[23:14] Bob Dobbs: each quadrant.

[23:16] Bob Dobbs: Dyad is Othello,

[23:18] Bob Dobbs: another tragedy.

[23:19] Bob Dobbs: Tetrad,

[23:20] Bob Dobbs: Kroker,

[23:21] Bob Dobbs: so Thompson is

[23:22] Bob Dobbs: Othello. Kroker is Hamlet,

[23:25] Bob Dobbs: and that's another tragedy.

[23:28] Bob Dobbs: But

[23:29] Bob Dobbs: Dobbs' quadrant is Henry

[23:33] Bob Dobbs: V, not a tragedy.

[23:37] Bob Dobbs: But you have two of everything in the Dobbs'

[23:39] Bob Dobbs: quadrant,

[23:39] Bob Dobbs: so you also have Prospero,

[23:41] Bob Dobbs: which is a fantasy alchemist.

[23:44] Bob Dobbs: And that's pointing to the science that me and Carolyn were first doing with MIHR.

[23:51] Bob Dobbs: And then what we didn't know,

[23:52] Bob Dobbs: but I predicted it,

[23:53] Bob Dobbs: what we do with ion.

[23:56] Bob Dobbs: So

[23:57] Bob Dobbs: I'm emphasizing now that the thing was modeled.

[24:01] Bob Dobbs: The chart is modeled on

[24:03] Bob Dobbs: MIHR in the mid-90s,

[24:05] Bob Dobbs: but it turned out to be more accurate in terms of what ion gave us.

[24:11] Bob Dobbs: So the chart is predicting ion more than mirror in the long run.

[24:15] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[24:15] Cameron McEwen: That's why I say that mirror is a four part,

[24:19] Cameron McEwen: but the chart is a five part.

[24:21] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[24:22] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[24:22] Cameron McEwen: So it inherently reaches beyond the four.

[24:25] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[24:26] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[24:27] Cameron McEwen: But

[24:28] Cameron McEwen: I think it's important to say,

[24:29] Cameron McEwen: you say that the Anthropomorphic Physical is both the ground of the four things above it or the four anti-environment.

[24:40] Cameron McEwen: above it,

[24:41] Cameron McEwen: but it's also kind of the unknown projection from them.

[24:47] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[24:47] Bob Dobbs: the unknown qualities of human consciousness,

[24:50] Bob Dobbs: whatever we are.

[24:52] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[24:53] Cameron McEwen: But it's important to note that there's a circle or a knot,

[24:59] Cameron McEwen: K-N-O-T,

[25:00] Cameron McEwen: in time there.

[25:02] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[25:02] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[25:02] Cameron McEwen: So you have a ground that is actually producing if

[25:09] Cameron McEwen: sex.

[25:11] Cameron McEwen: but at the same time,

[25:13] Cameron McEwen: that ground is pointing towards itself in the future.

[25:20] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[25:20] Cameron McEwen: So this is an example of the kind of effect before cause that was constantly going on in the charts.

[25:29] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[25:31] Bob Dobbs: exactly.

[25:32] Bob Dobbs: So

[25:36] Bob Dobbs: I'm trying to put all kinds of knowledges.

[25:39] Bob Dobbs: Knowledge categories like Shakespeare plays in the chart.

[25:43] Bob Dobbs: I'm trying to have physics,

[25:47] Bob Dobbs: sociology,

[25:48] Bob Dobbs: philosophy,

[25:49] Bob Dobbs: psychology.

[25:50] Bob Dobbs: For example,

[25:52] Bob Dobbs: on the second column on the left,

[25:55] Bob Dobbs: three from the bottom,

[25:57] Bob Dobbs: LaRouche Quadrant,

[25:58] Bob Dobbs: you have nominalism,

[26:00] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan Quadrant,

[26:01] Bob Dobbs: analytical positivism.

[26:04] Cameron McEwen: Which,

[26:05] Cameron McEwen: is this the...

[26:11] Cameron McEwen: For example,

[26:11] Cameron McEwen: in

[26:12] Cameron McEwen: LaRouche, where do I find,

[26:14] Cameron McEwen: oh,

[26:14] Cameron McEwen: I see,

[26:15] Cameron McEwen: nominalism down there.

[26:16] Cameron McEwen: Okay,

[26:16] Cameron McEwen: I got it.

[26:17] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[26:18] Bob Dobbs: So you go to the same position for the McLuhan,

[26:20] Bob Dobbs: and that's analytical positivism.

[26:23] Bob Dobbs: And then Berion,

[26:25] Bob Dobbs: the Thompson quadrant is sensationalism,

[26:28] Bob Dobbs: and Kroker is critical theory.

[26:32] Bob Dobbs: And then

[26:33] Bob Dobbs: I'm quadrophrenia plus,

[26:35] Bob Dobbs: which is,

[26:35] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[26:36] Bob Dobbs: a syllogism I make up.

[26:38] Bob Dobbs: It's a process that refers to,

[26:42] Bob Dobbs: on the idea-thinking level,

[26:45] Bob Dobbs: you're adequate,

[26:46] Bob Dobbs: you're familiar with the first four levels.

[26:50] Bob Dobbs: But you're hopping from one to another,

[26:51] Bob Dobbs: so I call that quadrophrenia.

[26:53] Bob Dobbs: I think I explained quadrophrenia was humans are naturally split,

[27:00] Bob Dobbs: and literacy exaggerated that,

[27:02] Bob Dobbs: especially the printing press exaggerated that split.

[27:05] Bob Dobbs: So McLuhan said schizophrenia is a necessary product of...

[27:09] Bob Dobbs: of the printing press.

[27:11] Bob Dobbs: But the Android Meme is simulating us more and more and mirroring us back,

[27:15] Bob Dobbs: and it's going inside us.

[27:18] Bob Dobbs: Those are the clichés of the cyborg.

[27:20] Bob Dobbs: So the schizophrenia in the Android Meme combines with the schizophrenia in the literate person,

[27:26] Bob Dobbs: and you put the two together and you get quadrophrenia.

[27:30] Bob Dobbs: So that is a new level of complexity that's happening in the human.

[27:35] Bob Dobbs: And in that phase...

[27:38] Bob Dobbs: 1977 to 92.

[27:40] Bob Dobbs: Now look across to the column going to the right after the middle column,

[27:47] Bob Dobbs: and you'll see in the Dobbs quadrant,

[27:50] Bob Dobbs: four terms down,

[27:51] Bob Dobbs: it says 1990,

[27:52] Bob Dobbs: and then in brackets,

[27:53] Bob Dobbs: 1977 to 92 is the span that 1990 crystallizes.

[28:01] Bob Dobbs: You follow that?

[28:03] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[28:04] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[28:05] Cameron McEwen: I...

[28:06] Cameron McEwen: see what you're saying and I get the gist,

[28:09] Cameron McEwen: but to me,

[28:12] Cameron McEwen: it comes across a little bit like the description of Plato by Nietzsche in his History of an Error.

[28:21] Cameron McEwen: Remember we discussed

[28:23] Cameron McEwen: Nietzsche History of an Error way back in the first or second conversation,

[28:29] Cameron McEwen: and

[28:30] Cameron McEwen: Nietzsche characterizes

[28:32] Cameron McEwen: Plato as the first stage

[28:35] Cameron McEwen: sort of in the self-consciousness of truth,

[28:40] Cameron McEwen: the characterization is,

[28:42] Cameron McEwen: I,

[28:42] Cameron McEwen: Plato,

[28:43] Cameron McEwen: am the truth,

[28:45] Cameron McEwen: right?

[28:45] Cameron McEwen: And then throughout history,

[28:47] Cameron McEwen: that gets to be more and more complex until the whole notion kind of dissolves.

[28:55] Cameron McEwen: So,

[28:55] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[28:58] Cameron McEwen: what you seem to be doing here is you're doing interesting things in that you're

[29:05] Cameron McEwen: expressing complications in time,

[29:09] Cameron McEwen: complications in mind,

[29:11] Cameron McEwen: complications between individual and collective,

[29:16] Cameron McEwen: complications between levels of being.

[29:21] Cameron McEwen: All of these things are very interesting to contemplate,

[29:28] Cameron McEwen: but they're always problematic.

[29:32] Cameron McEwen: both in themselves and in their relationship to each other.

[29:35] Cameron McEwen: So when you say,

[29:38] Cameron McEwen: well,

[29:39] Cameron McEwen: think about it this way,

[29:42] Cameron McEwen: to me what you're doing is you're saying,

[29:44] Cameron McEwen: I,

[29:44] Cameron McEwen: Bob Dobbs,

[29:46] Cameron McEwen: am the truth.

[29:48] Cameron McEwen: It's like at one point you have second coming here.

[29:52] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[29:52] Bob Dobbs: in the Dobbs quadrant.

[29:54] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[29:56] Bob Dobbs: I'm billing for Dobbs,

[29:57] Bob Dobbs: eh?

[29:58] Bob Dobbs: I'm billing.

[30:00] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[30:01] Cameron McEwen: So.

[30:02] Cameron McEwen: I,

[30:04] Cameron McEwen: what I am going to,

[30:06] Cameron McEwen: when you're finished with the explication of the chart.

[30:12] Cameron McEwen: What I'm going to try to do is identify two different ways of coming out of the chart,

[30:19] Cameron McEwen: yours and mine.

[30:21] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[30:22] Cameron McEwen: And yours,

[30:23] Cameron McEwen: I'll say,

[30:24] Cameron McEwen: is one that is insistent of personality,

[30:34] Cameron McEwen: you could say,

[30:35] Cameron McEwen: and mine is the abrogation of personality.

[30:40] Bob Dobbs: Application or abrogation?

[30:43] Cameron McEwen: Abrogation.

[30:44] Bob Dobbs: A-B-R-O.

[30:45] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[30:47] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[30:47] Bob Dobbs: The canceling.

[30:49] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[30:50] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[30:51] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[30:52] Bob Dobbs: All right.

[30:52] Bob Dobbs: So

[30:53] Bob Dobbs: I'm saying the chart is not complicated.

[30:56] Bob Dobbs: If you realize each section has a theme,

[31:00] Bob Dobbs: a bunch of themes,

[31:01] Bob Dobbs: and they're in the same position in each quadrant.

[31:04] Bob Dobbs: So you would say,

[31:07] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[31:07] Bob Dobbs: what's in the second position?

[31:09] Bob Dobbs: In the second column from the right,

[31:12] Bob Dobbs: which at the top is under lofty.

[31:15] Bob Dobbs: So you'll see

[31:16] Bob Dobbs: God, sex,

[31:18] Bob Dobbs: politics,

[31:18] Bob Dobbs: and consciousness.

[31:20] Bob Dobbs: I think I got those four categories from Kroker.

[31:24] Bob Dobbs: He talked them as,

[31:25] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[31:25] Bob Dobbs: the old constants or truths or something.

[31:29] Bob Dobbs: The old categories,

[31:30] Bob Dobbs: God,

[31:31] Bob Dobbs: sex,

[31:31] Bob Dobbs: politics,

[31:32] Bob Dobbs: and consciousness.

[31:33] Bob Dobbs: But then because they're all spinning as clothing crystals,

[31:37] Bob Dobbs: I added Orphic Baroque.

[31:39] Bob Dobbs: spirals.

[31:40] Bob Dobbs: That's where the flatness of the chart belies the fact,

[31:44] Bob Dobbs: no,

[31:45] Bob Dobbs: they're all rotating around each other.

[31:48] Bob Dobbs: I'd have to make a video to show that.

[31:53] Cameron McEwen: To me,

[31:53] Cameron McEwen: that's what's interesting.

[31:54] Cameron McEwen: I hate to keep saying to me,

[31:57] Cameron McEwen: if I say it again,

[31:58] Cameron McEwen: hit me with a stick or something.

[32:02] Cameron McEwen: What's interesting to me about what's going on here is that,

[32:08] Cameron McEwen: did I say it?

[32:09] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[32:09] Bob Dobbs: you said,

[32:09] Bob Dobbs: what's interesting to me?

[32:10] Bob Dobbs: You did it again.

[32:11] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[32:12] Cameron McEwen: shit.

[32:12] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[32:13] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[32:14] Cameron McEwen: I guess that's because I don't want to be authoritative.

[32:19] Cameron McEwen: I don't want to say what's interesting as if I had a godlike view and could specify that,

[32:26] Cameron McEwen: right?

[32:27] Cameron McEwen: However,

[32:30] Cameron McEwen: when you talk about spiraling and when you talk about the contamination of the different categories,

[32:37] Cameron McEwen: All right.

[32:38] Cameron McEwen: That's very interesting because you're insisting that nothing can be understood on its own and everything needs to be understood together with other things,

[32:54] Cameron McEwen: but what other things mean and what understanding with other things means is kind of up in the air.

[33:06] Cameron McEwen: by

[33:09] Cameron McEwen: exemplifying those things in your chart,

[33:12] Cameron McEwen: you seem to me to be doing something that's very important.

[33:16] Cameron McEwen: Most thinking is simply a way of stating something that's bothersome in some way and then either

[33:31] Cameron McEwen: finds an answer to it so it ceases to be bothersome or states that well

[33:38] Cameron McEwen: being bothered Innis way is just the way it is.

[33:41] Cameron McEwen: But interesting thinking goes far beyond that by making things complex,

[33:48] Cameron McEwen: complex in time,

[33:49] Cameron McEwen: complex in being,

[33:51] Cameron McEwen: complex in all sorts of ways.

[33:53] Cameron McEwen: And your chart is an example of those sorts of complexing moves in action.

[34:02] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[34:03] Bob Dobbs: Now that's what the third column is supposed to be.

[34:06] Bob Dobbs: The third column.

[34:07] Bob Dobbs: is like the layout in the formula chart,

[34:10] Bob Dobbs: the big one,

[34:10] Bob Dobbs: 1750 to 2020.

[34:13] Bob Dobbs: So I'm showing in interaction the arrows,

[34:16] Bob Dobbs: one,

[34:17] Bob Dobbs: two,

[34:17] Bob Dobbs: three arrows,

[34:19] Bob Dobbs: pointing out six factors.

[34:22] Bob Dobbs: So in the

[34:24] Bob Dobbs: LaRouche quadrant,

[34:25] Bob Dobbs: Beatnik,

[34:26] Bob Dobbs: so this is the

[34:27] Bob Dobbs: 50s, SubGenius interacting with organization men.

[34:30] Bob Dobbs: Remember that book,

[34:30] Bob Dobbs: The Organization Man?

[34:31] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan used to quote it in the

[34:35] Cameron McEwen: 50s. Yeah,

[34:36] Cameron McEwen: I know.

[34:36] Cameron McEwen: That was by a guy by the name of White.

[34:39] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[34:40] Cameron McEwen: And

[34:41] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan actually liked that book because he thought it sort of specified the way things are.

[34:51] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[34:52] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[34:52] Bob Dobbs: so the sequential part is I'm showing changes from 1960-1990,

[35:01] Bob Dobbs: but actually 1947 to...

[35:05] Bob Dobbs: It's at the bottom there,

[35:06] Bob Dobbs: 1992.

[35:10] Bob Dobbs: I'm showing cultural shifts with the McLuhan idea that we're living 200 years every 12 months.

[35:17] Bob Dobbs: So we're showing cultural evolution,

[35:19] Bob Dobbs: cultural sociology,

[35:21] Bob Dobbs: and the changes.

[35:22] Bob Dobbs: So the 47 to 57 period is a more innocent period.

[35:29] Bob Dobbs: So you have four from the bottom on the left column,

[35:33] Bob Dobbs: inside column,

[35:34] Bob Dobbs: under hadron.

[35:36] Bob Dobbs: Four from the bottom is kiss.

[35:37] Bob Dobbs: And then you move to the Kuhn quadrant,

[35:40] Bob Dobbs: and you have fellatio slash cunnilingus.

[35:42] Bob Dobbs: That is the...

[35:45] Bob Dobbs: Starting to move into porn and more and more people picking up porn.

[35:50] Bob Dobbs: The big breakthrough was Deep Throat in the early 70s.

[35:53] Bob Dobbs: That's the Thompson quadrant year-wise,

[35:58] Bob Dobbs: 67 to 72.

[35:59] Bob Dobbs: But I put unisex in that one.

[36:03] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan used to write about unisex and explain it.

[36:06] Bob Dobbs: And then in the Kroker,

[36:09] Bob Dobbs: it's joined at the hip.

[36:14] Bob Dobbs: Sexual process.

[36:15] Bob Dobbs: and then the

[36:17] Bob Dobbs: Dobs quadrant is a horny device.

[36:19] Bob Dobbs: People start having sexual dildos and things,

[36:23] Bob Dobbs: right?

[36:24] Bob Dobbs: Objects.

[36:25] Bob Dobbs: So

[36:27] Bob Dobbs: I'm showing a process of the change of consciousness through 60 to 90,

[36:33] Bob Dobbs: which is leading to the dramatic point that Kroker writes about where he says our genes leave our body.

[36:44] Bob Dobbs: and jump into the virtual technology,

[36:47] Bob Dobbs: the digital weirdness of the digital reality,

[36:52] Bob Dobbs: which is a parallel operation to the analog extensions,

[36:58] Bob Dobbs: which finish with the satellite.

[37:00] Bob Dobbs: And then the digital was not extending our faculties.

[37:04] Bob Dobbs: It was the machines,

[37:05] Bob Dobbs: the machining extending itself.

[37:08] Bob Dobbs: So that causes a different kind of music.

[37:13] Bob Dobbs: which I have over on the left,

[37:16] Bob Dobbs: the second column from the right under God.

[37:22] Bob Dobbs: You'll see the music is rap.

[37:25] Bob Dobbs: And,

[37:25] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[37:26] Bob Dobbs: more and more,

[37:26] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if the millennials,

[37:28] Bob Dobbs: they probably don't know this stuff,

[37:29] Bob Dobbs: but we know growing up when we did,

[37:34] Bob Dobbs: we know about disco.

[37:36] Bob Dobbs: That's just before rap.

[37:38] Bob Dobbs: And we know that rock is the

[37:41] Bob Dobbs: 60s and rock and roll.

[37:43] Bob Dobbs: is the

[37:43] Bob Dobbs: 50s and jazz is the

[37:45] Bob Dobbs: 40s. So it's a mechanical inventory of figures that people can identify with each decade approximately.

[37:58] Bob Dobbs: But I'm trying to show the textural qualities of change.

[38:02] Bob Dobbs: So that's the McLuhan aspect of it.

[38:04] Bob Dobbs: But also

[38:05] Bob Dobbs: I got LaRouche in here.

[38:07] Bob Dobbs: So you have in the second column from the Thank you.

[38:12] Bob Dobbs: right in the third position from the bottom i've got tetrahedron and then i've got in the Thompson McLuhan quadrant i've got cube Thompson quadrant octahedron Kroker's dodecahedron and dobbs icosahedron and those are the platonic solids they

[38:33] Bob Dobbs: aren't necessarily sequential right they're part of whatever plato meant by nesting the different uh

[38:42] Bob Dobbs: forms.

[38:44] Bob Dobbs: So it's not only sequence,

[38:47] Bob Dobbs: it's also,

[38:49] Bob Dobbs: I don't know,

[38:49] Bob Dobbs: intensities,

[38:50] Bob Dobbs: a denser culture,

[38:55] Bob Dobbs: more holeopathic.

[38:57] Bob Dobbs: So I'm trying to include different ways the forms are changing,

[39:04] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[39:04] Bob Dobbs: what McLuhan would call the language of forms.

[39:07] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[39:08] Cameron McEwen: But in fact,

[39:10] Cameron McEwen: you already said that.

[39:11] Cameron McEwen: but in different language when we were talking about how the first four levels were projections or grounded in the fifth.

[39:26] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[39:28] Cameron McEwen: What's being said there is that the four levels are not sequential.

[39:35] Cameron McEwen: They're in some kind of dynamic simultaneity.

[39:42] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[39:42] Bob Dobbs: especially because they have sequentially happened.

[39:46] Bob Dobbs: 47 to 57 is the LaRouche quadrant.

[39:48] Bob Dobbs: 57 to 67 is the McLuhan quadrant.

[39:50] Bob Dobbs: So I work my way through until we get up to 1990,

[39:55] Bob Dobbs: which is the

[39:56] Bob Dobbs: 1977 to 92 phase.

[39:58] Bob Dobbs: What was I going to say about that?

[40:04] Cameron McEwen: I kind of interrupted you,

[40:10] Cameron McEwen: I guess.

[40:11] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[40:12] Cameron McEwen: You were talking about how the platonic solids are not diachronic,

[40:17] Cameron McEwen: they're synchronic.

[40:19] Bob Dobbs: Right,

[40:20] Bob Dobbs: and that's

[40:21] Bob Dobbs: LaRouche knowledge.

[40:22] Bob Dobbs: You learn about

[40:24] Bob Dobbs: Plato and the higher hypothesis from LaRouche.

[40:26] Bob Dobbs: That's his organizing mentor.

[40:30] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan has the vortices.

[40:32] Bob Dobbs: Thompson has something else.

[40:35] Bob Dobbs: So I'm interweaving the cultural evolution Thompson point of view,

[40:40] Bob Dobbs: with McLuhan point of view,

[40:42] Bob Dobbs: with Kroker point of view,

[40:44] Bob Dobbs: and LaRouche point of view,

[40:46] Bob Dobbs: and then the Giedion view,

[40:48] Bob Dobbs: which is...

[40:51] Bob Dobbs: uh some kind of successful outcome is what the dobbs quadrant uh it's you could say in civil terms it's a optimistic view of where we were going in 1995 five years before the the

[41:10] Bob Dobbs: millennial what they call it yeah

[41:12] Bob Dobbs: 2000 was a millennial millennium right and there was lots of cultural anxiety leading up to that

[41:20] Bob Dobbs: expressed by Y2K in 1999.

[41:25] Bob Dobbs: So

[41:26] Bob Dobbs: I'm including,

[41:27] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[41:28] Bob Dobbs: the biblical,

[41:29] Bob Dobbs: second coming,

[41:30] Bob Dobbs: Armageddon,

[41:30] Bob Dobbs: and apocalypse.

[41:32] Bob Dobbs: That's implied.

[41:34] Bob Dobbs: So all these memes,

[41:36] Bob Dobbs: well,

[41:36] Bob Dobbs: what become memes in the information society,

[41:40] Bob Dobbs: all these processes that then become tetrad,

[41:47] Bob Dobbs: softwareized.

[41:49] Bob Dobbs: evaporated and then less hardware more software i'm i'm projecting we're going somewhere there's an order uh to from different thinkers they all have an order uh that's unfolding and i'm showing the mixture of of

[42:05] Bob Dobbs: orders because i'm showing the different systems by LaRouche technology in my up the orphaganti essay that this chart is illustrating LaRouche technological liberalism McLuhan is

[42:18] Bob Dobbs: Catholic Thomism,

[42:21] Bob Dobbs: Thompson is Buddhism,

[42:23] Bob Dobbs: Kroker is Marxism,

[42:25] Bob Dobbs: and

[42:25] Bob Dobbs: I'm, you could say maybe anarchy,

[42:29] Bob Dobbs: but I'm not,

[42:30] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[42:31] Bob Dobbs: nihilist.

[42:33] Bob Dobbs: Comprehensive,

[42:34] Bob Dobbs: maybe the encyclopedic function that's happening to people as the

[42:40] Bob Dobbs: 60s, 70s,

[42:41] Bob Dobbs: 80s unfold,

[42:42] Bob Dobbs: if you're still alive,

[42:43] Bob Dobbs: you can become quite comprehensive in your thinking

[42:47] Bob Dobbs: way beyond any previous centuries in terms of cultural acquaintance.

[42:54] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[42:54] Bob Dobbs: you could easily be aware of all parts of cultures around the globe in the global theater,

[43:02] Bob Dobbs: whereas it was a lot slower to acquaint yourself with everything on the planet,

[43:08] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[43:08] Bob Dobbs: 100,

[43:08] Bob Dobbs: 200,

[43:09] Bob Dobbs: 500 years before.

[43:10] Bob Dobbs: You could travel around the planet,

[43:12] Bob Dobbs: but in 30 years.

[43:15] Bob Dobbs: walk from one part of the seven continents to another.

[43:20] Bob Dobbs: There's a speed up here and an axis.

[43:24] Cameron McEwen: But also,

[43:25] Cameron McEwen: you could say,

[43:32] Cameron McEwen: if you imagine two spectra,

[43:37] Cameron McEwen: one horizontal and one vertical,

[43:42] Cameron McEwen: you might say that the horizontal spectra...

[43:45] Cameron McEwen: spectrum could designate speed.

[43:52] Cameron McEwen: And with time,

[43:56] Cameron McEwen: there was a tremendous speed up so that the position of the planet tended towards the speed end of the horizontal spectrum.

[44:08] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[44:08] Cameron McEwen: But if the vertical spectrum represented depth of thought,

[44:13] Cameron McEwen: Um,

[44:16] Cameron McEwen: I think you might find that there was an increasing superficiality going on that was roughly parallel to the increasing speed.

[44:31] Cameron McEwen: So if you want to talk about 500 years ago,

[44:34] Cameron McEwen: there wasn't this speed in getting around the planet.

[44:38] Cameron McEwen: That's definitely true,

[44:42] Cameron McEwen: but also the superficiality level.

[44:46] Cameron McEwen: was not so great.

[44:47] Cameron McEwen: So in looking at history,

[44:50] Cameron McEwen: we have to look at these two crossing spectra.

[44:56] Cameron McEwen: We can't just look at one.

[44:59] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[45:00] Bob Dobbs: I saw Joseph Beuys.

[45:01] Bob Dobbs: You ever heard of him?

[45:02] Bob Dobbs: B-E-U-Y-S,

[45:05] Bob Dobbs: the German artist?

[45:08] Bob Dobbs: B-E-U-Y-S,

[45:09] Bob Dobbs: I think that's how he spelled his name.

[45:11] Bob Dobbs: He spoke at the

[45:13] Bob Dobbs: Nova Scotia College of Art and Design and

[45:15] Bob Dobbs: 1977.

[45:16] Bob Dobbs: He was the graduation speaker,

[45:18] Bob Dobbs: and I was living in Halifax,

[45:20] Bob Dobbs: so I attended it.

[45:21] Bob Dobbs: But he was a theosophical thinker,

[45:24] Bob Dobbs: but he had two lines,

[45:25] Bob Dobbs: one going up on a...

[45:27] Bob Dobbs: 90 degree angle and another going down in a 90 degree angle.

[45:31] Bob Dobbs: So he said something was ascending,

[45:33] Bob Dobbs: but something also was descending.

[45:36] Bob Dobbs: So it was a Gnostic view probably.

[45:38] Bob Dobbs: But what were you saying?

[45:41] Cameron McEwen: Heraclitus was saying this before Plato,

[45:44] Cameron McEwen: right?

[45:45] Cameron McEwen: He was in

[45:46] Cameron McEwen: 550 BC or something.

[45:49] Cameron McEwen: Heraclitus was saying the way up is the way down.

[45:52] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[45:53] Bob Dobbs: So,

[45:54] Bob Dobbs: um...

[45:56] Bob Dobbs: I'm taking,

[45:59] Bob Dobbs: what was I going to say about that?

[46:02] Bob Dobbs: Oh yeah,

[46:03] Bob Dobbs: so LaRouche saw,

[46:04] Bob Dobbs: he bemoaned the superficiality that was taking over society and,

[46:09] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[46:10] Bob Dobbs: wars and

[46:13] Bob Dobbs: AIDS things,

[46:14] Bob Dobbs: plagues,

[46:16] Bob Dobbs: starvation.

[46:18] Bob Dobbs: He saw us going into a new dark age.

[46:23] Bob Dobbs: Thompson saw a new dark age on another level or content.

[46:28] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan said we've been in a dark age for most of the 20th century.

[46:32] Bob Dobbs: And

[46:33] Bob Dobbs: Kroker said,

[46:34] Bob Dobbs: well,

[46:34] Bob Dobbs: we're not even here anymore.

[46:36] Bob Dobbs: The genes have left us and the machines have abandoned us.

[46:40] Bob Dobbs: So there was different dire levels of Armageddon apocalypse and the superficialization of human experience.

[46:48] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[46:48] Bob Dobbs: what was the frog?

[46:50] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[46:50] Bob Dobbs: he's slowly boiling the water.

[46:52] Bob Dobbs: The frog doesn't know it's getting boiled to death,

[46:54] Bob Dobbs: right?

[46:55] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[46:56] Bob Dobbs: So I'm including all these processes,

[46:58] Bob Dobbs: which

[46:59] Bob Dobbs: Kroker accused McLuhan of being an emergent philosopher.

[47:04] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[47:04] Bob Dobbs: accused,

[47:06] Bob Dobbs: categorized him as that.

[47:08] Bob Dobbs: And Kroker was not an emergent philosopher.

[47:11] Bob Dobbs: And he had Whitehead and different guys before McLuhan that fit the emergent kind of thinking.

[47:19] Cameron McEwen: The problem is that Kroker...

[47:23] Cameron McEwen: was and presumably is just a die-hard conceptualist.

[47:29] Bob Dobbs: Yep.

[47:30] Cameron McEwen: He's always got somebody in some position,

[47:35] Cameron McEwen: right?

[47:40] Bob Dobbs: I found a new statement by him.

[47:43] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[47:43] Cameron McEwen: yeah?

[47:44] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[47:45] Bob Dobbs: I just posted it.

[47:47] Bob Dobbs: He's speaking,

[47:48] Bob Dobbs: it seems like...

[47:51] Bob Dobbs: It's after his wife died in 2018.

[47:54] Bob Dobbs: She actually died four days after Eric McLuhan.

[47:58] Bob Dobbs: He died May 18,

[47:59] Bob Dobbs: 2018,

[48:00] Bob Dobbs: and she died May 22,

[48:01] Bob Dobbs: 2018.

[48:03] Bob Dobbs: And I think she had met Eric.

[48:06] Bob Dobbs: Somewhere in there,

[48:07] Bob Dobbs: Kroker,

[48:07] Bob Dobbs: being a McLuhan student,

[48:09] Bob Dobbs: he would have bumped into Eric.

[48:11] Bob Dobbs: And he and his wife were a creative partnership.

[48:15] Bob Dobbs: So it looks like he went to Cape Breton.

[48:19] Bob Dobbs: Twice.

[48:21] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[48:21] Bob Dobbs: no,

[48:22] Bob Dobbs: he begins by talking about his youth.

[48:25] Bob Dobbs: When he was first or second year of college,

[48:29] Bob Dobbs: he worked,

[48:30] Bob Dobbs: he grew up in a place a thousand miles north of Sudbury or something.

[48:35] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[48:36] Bob Dobbs: way up there.

[48:38] Bob Dobbs: I forget,

[48:39] Bob Dobbs: I think it was called Deep Rock or something.

[48:41] Bob Dobbs: So his father worked up there in some factory,

[48:44] Bob Dobbs: and so he worked in the factory in the summer.

[48:47] Bob Dobbs: And so it's 67,

[48:49] Bob Dobbs: 68,

[48:50] Bob Dobbs: and he had bought

[48:51] Bob Dobbs: Understanding Media and Medium as a Massage,

[48:54] Bob Dobbs: and he would read them during breaks in the factory,

[48:57] Bob Dobbs: but it was a really dangerous job he had.

[49:00] Bob Dobbs: He had to,

[49:00] Bob Dobbs: and he goes into details,

[49:02] Bob Dobbs: and if he slipped,

[49:03] Bob Dobbs: he would fall down the hole and die,

[49:05] Bob Dobbs: and the guy he replaced died falling.

[49:09] Bob Dobbs: So he was commenting on reading McLuhan in that situation and trying to figure out what the Medium as a Massage,

[49:14] Bob Dobbs: what that meant.

[49:16] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[49:17] Bob Dobbs: And I've heard him say that story,

[49:18] Bob Dobbs: not in that detail,

[49:19] Bob Dobbs: but I knew that he was reading it in a factory.

[49:24] Bob Dobbs: So he gave a little more detail.

[49:26] Bob Dobbs: What do you think?

[49:28] Cameron McEwen: Didn't Kroker start off thinking that he was going to become a priest?

[49:33] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[49:34] Bob Dobbs: he was what they call a seminarian,

[49:36] Bob Dobbs: right?

[49:37] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[49:37] Cameron McEwen: exactly.

[49:38] Cameron McEwen: So usually that means that he had a mother that was...

[49:46] Cameron McEwen: religious and kind of religious in a good sense,

[49:56] Cameron McEwen: right?

[49:57] Cameron McEwen: Usually a person wants to become a priest because they've seen the mother as a kind of role model of somebody who's well-fitted to life,

[50:10] Cameron McEwen: you could say.

[50:11] Cameron McEwen: Does he say anything about his mother?

[50:13] Bob Dobbs: No.

[50:14] Bob Dobbs: He did say one thing.

[50:16] Bob Dobbs: he mentioned his father and the...

[50:20] Bob Dobbs: The tragedy of that labor class being obsolesce,

[50:24] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[50:24] Bob Dobbs: whatever kind of hardware work he did was,

[50:27] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[50:27] Bob Dobbs: over in the 70s and 80s.

[50:29] Bob Dobbs: And he kind of felt he was on a mission,

[50:32] Bob Dobbs: he said,

[50:32] Bob Dobbs: to remember what his father's generation had done.

[50:36] Bob Dobbs: That was one of his stated points was to retrieve cultural memory and not have the Android Meme cancel everybody's memory of human days.

[50:45] Cameron McEwen: That's a very...

[50:50] Cameron McEwen: important insight and goal.

[50:53] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[50:57] Bob Dobbs: So he rejected the seminary after a couple of years,

[51:00] Bob Dobbs: and he ended up at

[51:01] Bob Dobbs: McMaster and Hamilton,

[51:04] Bob Dobbs: where he met Marilouise,

[51:06] Bob Dobbs: who was from Boston,

[51:08] Bob Dobbs: was an American.

[51:10] Bob Dobbs: But that got him into political economy,

[51:12] Bob Dobbs: and then he became,

[51:13] Bob Dobbs: I guess,

[51:13] Bob Dobbs: a Marxist.

[51:15] Bob Dobbs: So he went from Catholicism to...

[51:17] Bob Dobbs: Marxism,

[51:18] Bob Dobbs: but then he became a postmodern Marxist and even went further.

[51:24] Bob Dobbs: But he did a great book with Michael Weinstein,

[51:26] Bob Dobbs: who is an American professor in Chicago,

[51:29] Bob Dobbs: I think,

[51:30] Bob Dobbs: and they did Data Trash in 1994.

[51:33] Bob Dobbs: That's a year before the Internet becomes a popular phenomenon.

[51:38] Bob Dobbs: And they're updating Marx's

[51:40] Bob Dobbs: Capital or whatever other books Marx did by saying we have a virtual class,

[51:46] Bob Dobbs: not just

[51:47] Bob Dobbs: the traditional working class,

[51:49] Bob Dobbs: middle class,

[51:51] Bob Dobbs: oligarch class,

[51:52] Bob Dobbs: you have this new phenomenon of information and Königsbergian people that were global and not subject to the conflicts and tensions of the chemical body,

[52:05] Bob Dobbs: which was working class,

[52:07] Bob Dobbs: middle class,

[52:08] Bob Dobbs: wealthy people.

[52:09] Bob Dobbs: And so they update Marx.

[52:11] Bob Dobbs: They do what McLuhan said Marx failed to do.

[52:14] Bob Dobbs: Marx failed to deal with the communications bus.

[52:17] Bob Dobbs: And so

[52:19] Bob Dobbs: Kroker does that,

[52:20] Bob Dobbs: and it's an excellent book in updating the

[52:26] Bob Dobbs: Marxist genre.

[52:29] Bob Dobbs: So have you ever read it,

[52:31] Bob Dobbs: looked at it?

[52:32] Cameron McEwen: No.

[52:33] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[52:33] Bob Dobbs: it's called Data Trash.

[52:35] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[52:36] Cameron McEwen: Kroker,

[52:38] Cameron McEwen: I don't really have a taste for his stuff.

[52:43] Cameron McEwen: It just seems to me to be,

[52:45] Cameron McEwen: as I said before,

[52:46] Cameron McEwen: too.

[52:48] Cameron McEwen: Classificatory.

[52:52] Bob Dobbs: Classificatory.

[52:54] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[52:54] Cameron McEwen: Maybe I should take another look at it,

[52:56] Cameron McEwen: at his stuff,

[52:58] Cameron McEwen: particularly the book you're recommending here from 94 Data Trash.

[53:02] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[53:03] Cameron McEwen: But

[53:06] Cameron McEwen: I've just never developed a taste for his stuff.

[53:09] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[53:10] Bob Dobbs: you stayed mainly with McLuhan,

[53:13] Bob Dobbs: And

[53:14] Bob Dobbs: Saul McLuhan was covering...

[53:16] Bob Dobbs: whatever would be coming down the pike over the next 50 years,

[53:19] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan had it covered.

[53:23] Bob Dobbs: I know that your friend George Sanderson was on a panel with Kroker.

[53:28] Bob Dobbs: He told me,

[53:29] Bob Dobbs: or somehow I know this,

[53:32] Bob Dobbs: and he really blasted Kroker on the panel.

[53:35] Bob Dobbs: He did not respect

[53:37] Bob Dobbs: Kroker McLuhan.

[53:38] Bob Dobbs: I don't know what Kroker said,

[53:40] Bob Dobbs: but

[53:42] Bob Dobbs: George didn't appreciate it.

[53:43] Bob Dobbs: You probably would have agreed with George.

[53:46] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[53:47] Cameron McEwen: and the Catholic thing would have been involved there too.

[53:50] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[53:51] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[53:52] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[53:52] Cameron McEwen: George was very religious,

[53:53] Cameron McEwen: and the idea that

[53:56] Cameron McEwen: Kroker had sort of turned against that part of his past wouldn't have sat well with George.

[54:02] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[54:03] Bob Dobbs: So Kroker makes this statement,

[54:05] Bob Dobbs: and it seems to be after his

[54:08] Bob Dobbs: I can't get the exact date,

[54:11] Bob Dobbs: but it seems to be after his wife died in 2018.

[54:14] Bob Dobbs: And he hasn't,

[54:16] Bob Dobbs: his C-theory,

[54:17] Bob Dobbs: his website has been,

[54:19] Bob Dobbs: he hasn't done anything much in his traditional work on a C-theory virtual magazine,

[54:26] Bob Dobbs: online magazine,

[54:29] Bob Dobbs: since his wife died.

[54:32] Bob Dobbs: So for the first time,

[54:33] Bob Dobbs: he did a TED Talk,

[54:34] Bob Dobbs: 15 minutes,

[54:36] Bob Dobbs: and he talks about,

[54:37] Bob Dobbs: he doesn't say why,

[54:38] Bob Dobbs: but he's hurt.

[54:40] Bob Dobbs: And he goes to

[54:41] Bob Dobbs: Cape Breton to find out who he is.

[54:43] Bob Dobbs: So he's going through a crisis.

[54:45] Bob Dobbs: and he goes back to Cape Breton twice.

[54:47] Bob Dobbs: So he's talking very personally,

[54:49] Bob Dobbs: which he never does,

[54:51] Bob Dobbs: not in his writing.

[54:53] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[54:53] Cameron McEwen: I hope you'll send me a link.

[54:55] Cameron McEwen: I'd be interested in that.

[54:56] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[54:56] Bob Dobbs: I'll send it.

[54:59] Cameron McEwen: Why Cape Breton?

[55:00] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[55:03] Cameron McEwen: if he was working in northern Ontario.

[55:07] Bob Dobbs: No,

[55:08] Bob Dobbs: This is now.

[55:09] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[55:09] Bob Dobbs: northern Ontario is when he's a kid,

[55:11] Bob Dobbs: and then he goes to university.

[55:13] Cameron McEwen: My point is...

[55:15] Cameron McEwen: Why go to...

[55:17] Cameron McEwen: If you're trying to find your identity,

[55:20] Cameron McEwen: if that's not where you came from.

[55:22] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[55:23] Bob Dobbs: he seemed to be puzzled why he went there,

[55:25] Bob Dobbs: but he said he went back.

[55:28] Bob Dobbs: But when I was with him one time in 1997,

[55:33] Bob Dobbs: he said,

[55:33] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[55:33] Bob Dobbs: he knew I had lived in Nova Scotia.

[55:35] Bob Dobbs: So he asked me about it.

[55:37] Bob Dobbs: He was quite intrigued with it and he may have been there and he liked it.

[55:42] Bob Dobbs: So that was interesting that they.

[55:45] Bob Dobbs: They had some fascination with Nova Scotia,

[55:47] Bob Dobbs: so he went to Cape Britain and he described some experiences there.

[55:52] Bob Dobbs: But he is laying out a theory of what the Canadian identity is.

[55:56] Bob Dobbs: I think it's called

[55:58] Bob Dobbs: Canada and the Digital Future or something.

[56:01] Bob Dobbs: So he's developing from his 1984 book called

[56:06] Bob Dobbs: Technology and the Canadian Mind,

[56:08] Bob Dobbs: and then subtitled

[56:11] Bob Dobbs: Innis, McLuhan,

[56:12] Bob Dobbs: and Grant.

[56:13] Bob Dobbs: So he's explaining...

[56:15] Bob Dobbs: that book and then,

[56:17] Bob Dobbs: um,

[56:18] Bob Dobbs: then,

[56:18] Bob Dobbs: then as later works,

[56:20] Bob Dobbs: which is pretty science fiction for most people.

[56:22] Bob Dobbs: Um,

[56:24] Bob Dobbs: but it's,

[56:26] Bob Dobbs: go ahead.

[56:26] Cameron McEwen: He had a parallel track where he was doing philosophy as well as,

[56:33] Cameron McEwen: this,

[56:34] Cameron McEwen: data crash stuff.

[56:35] Cameron McEwen: So,

[56:35] Bob Dobbs: um,

[56:35] Bob Dobbs: he has,

[56:38] Cameron McEwen: he has a book on,

[56:39] Cameron McEwen: um,

[56:40] Cameron McEwen: I think it's Hegel,

[56:41] Cameron McEwen: Nietzsche and Heidegger.

[56:42] Bob Dobbs: Yep.

[56:44] Cameron McEwen: And one of the big problems I have with

[56:51] Cameron McEwen: Kroker and with many

[56:54] Cameron McEwen: Canadian intellectuals is that they,

[56:59] Cameron McEwen: especially recently,

[57:02] Cameron McEwen: they talk more and more about Heidegger.

[57:05] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[57:06] Cameron McEwen: Very few of these people have any German.

[57:10] Cameron McEwen: They're reading Heidegger.

[57:13] Cameron McEwen: in what are almost always bad translations,

[57:16] Cameron McEwen: ridiculous translations,

[57:20] Cameron McEwen: but they get published by,

[57:22] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[57:22] Cameron McEwen: University of Toronto Press or whoever.

[57:26] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[57:28] Cameron McEwen: And with Kroker,

[57:31] Cameron McEwen: Heidegger is very,

[57:32] Cameron McEwen: very important,

[57:33] Cameron McEwen: right?

[57:34] Cameron McEwen: For not only what he says in philosophy,

[57:37] Cameron McEwen: but what he says overall.

[57:39] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[57:40] Cameron McEwen: So it seems to be.

[57:41] Cameron McEwen: to me that he may be right that Heidegger is that important,

[57:44] Cameron McEwen: but if he's right,

[57:46] Cameron McEwen: then you have to learn good German.

[57:49] Cameron McEwen: That's just the law of the thing.

[57:55] Bob Dobbs: Let me say this.

[57:56] Bob Dobbs: With the wealth unfolding since the

[58:00] Bob Dobbs: 60s, despite inflation,

[58:02] Bob Dobbs: stagflation,

[58:03] Bob Dobbs: all these crises in different economies or cultures.

[58:07] Cameron McEwen: Wealth in quotation marks.

[58:09] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[58:09] Bob Dobbs: Incredible wealth is on.

[58:11] Bob Dobbs: unfolding.

[58:11] Bob Dobbs: So you're complaining a bit about the slackers of academia and its publishing.

[58:19] Bob Dobbs: It's like the NHL.

[58:22] Bob Dobbs: I stopped watching the NHL when there were more than six teams.

[58:27] Bob Dobbs: When there were six teams,

[58:28] Bob Dobbs: man,

[58:28] Bob Dobbs: they were really good players.

[58:30] Bob Dobbs: And you had to be really good to make it,

[58:32] Bob Dobbs: right?

[58:33] Bob Dobbs: But it got diluted.

[58:34] Bob Dobbs: And then there's 100 million teams,

[58:36] Bob Dobbs: and I don't care about them.

[58:38] Bob Dobbs: I remember going to the...

[58:40] Bob Dobbs: to a hockey game with Nelson Thal,

[58:42] Bob Dobbs: 1988 or something,

[58:45] Bob Dobbs: at the Maple Leaf Gardens.

[58:47] Bob Dobbs: And I was a pretty good player myself,

[58:49] Bob Dobbs: and almost got into the pros.

[58:53] Bob Dobbs: But I was shocked at how they were just kids The NHL,

[58:57] Bob Dobbs: this amazing thing that was so important in Canadian culture.

[59:02] Bob Dobbs: And so I'm watching these kids,

[59:03] Bob Dobbs: they're professional hockey players.

[59:05] Bob Dobbs: That's the way.

[59:06] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if it comes with age or something,

[59:08] Bob Dobbs: but it was all watered down.

[59:09] Bob Dobbs: That's what happened to academia.

[59:11] Bob Dobbs: Because of the general wealth that was unfolding in the last 50 years,

[59:17] Bob Dobbs: everybody got published.

[59:18] Bob Dobbs: The universities had to publish,

[59:20] Bob Dobbs: right?

[59:21] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[59:22] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[59:22] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[59:22] Cameron McEwen: the universities themselves multiplied.

[59:27] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[59:27] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[59:27] Cameron McEwen: It went from having sort of six good universities in Canada or six acceptable universities in Canada to,

[59:37] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[59:38] Cameron McEwen: the same thing as the NHL.

[59:39] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[59:40] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[59:41] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[59:46] Bob Dobbs: so we have an update from Kroker,

[59:49] Bob Dobbs: and he's always putting on Canada.

[59:53] Bob Dobbs: His dream or purpose is we need a new kind of university,

[59:58] Bob Dobbs: and I've seen him write and talk about this,

[1:00:00] Bob Dobbs: I don't know,

[1:00:01] Bob Dobbs: at least 10 years or something,

[1:00:03] Bob Dobbs: but I hadn't seen it lately with his books in the last 10 years,

[1:00:07] Bob Dobbs: but now he's come back to that.

[1:00:09] Bob Dobbs: And he's talking about Canadian identity cannot survive unless we come up with something new.

[1:00:16] Bob Dobbs: And it's the university he wants to be really innovative in.

[1:00:21] Bob Dobbs: So I don't know if he's making any progress,

[1:00:23] Bob Dobbs: but he presents it to this TED Talk.

[1:00:25] Bob Dobbs: I think it's a TED Talk.

[1:00:28] Bob Dobbs: It might be something to do with Moses Nimer's

[1:00:32] Bob Dobbs: Idea City.

[1:00:34] Bob Dobbs: annual thing he puts on.

[1:00:35] Bob Dobbs: I couldn't get the exact...

[1:00:38] Bob Dobbs: Kroker did speak at Idea City,

[1:00:40] Bob Dobbs: and I think it is,

[1:00:40] Bob Dobbs: but it's confusing because I think at the beginning it seems to be a TED Talk.

[1:00:46] Bob Dobbs: Anyways,

[1:00:47] Bob Dobbs: we have what seems to be the new Kroker after recovering from his wife's passing.

[1:00:56] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[1:00:56] Bob Dobbs: she was very important in his work.

[1:00:59] Bob Dobbs: They were a great team.

[1:01:02] Cameron McEwen: And by the way,

[1:01:03] Cameron McEwen: I consider...

[1:01:03] Cameron McEwen: completely agree with what you just said was Kroker opinion about Canada.

[1:01:11] Cameron McEwen: Canada is evaporating before our eyes,

[1:01:17] Cameron McEwen: and unless it develops ways of recovering its identity and solidifying its identity against...

[1:01:33] Cameron McEwen: the internationalizing forces of the United States.

[1:01:40] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:01:40] Cameron McEwen: it's just gone.

[1:01:41] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:01:43] Bob Dobbs: And he said,

[1:01:46] Bob Dobbs: he closes by saying,

[1:01:47] Bob Dobbs: what Canadian intellectual life is really good at is at being futurists.

[1:01:55] Cameron McEwen: I think that's the case,

[1:01:57] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[1:01:57] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:01:58] Cameron McEwen: I think that's the case.

[1:01:59] Bob Dobbs: Technological futurists.

[1:02:01] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:02:02] Bob Dobbs: anyways.

[1:02:03] Bob Dobbs: Good to hear from him.

[1:02:04] Bob Dobbs: I've been wondering,

[1:02:06] Bob Dobbs: his

[1:02:07] Bob Dobbs: Sea Theory magazine has been shut down for a couple of years.

[1:02:10] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if they're remodeling it or what.

[1:02:13] Bob Dobbs: I suppose I could phone the university and talk to him,

[1:02:17] Bob Dobbs: ask him if he's there.

[1:02:21] Bob Dobbs: I think he's still teaching there.

[1:02:22] Bob Dobbs: Anyways,

[1:02:23] Bob Dobbs: Kroker is important in my system,

[1:02:26] Bob Dobbs: quote,

[1:02:26] Bob Dobbs: system.

[1:02:28] Bob Dobbs: I think he was one of the best poets of the

[1:02:30] Bob Dobbs: 90s.

[1:02:31] Bob Dobbs: He wrote a new kind of poetry.

[1:02:32] Bob Dobbs: If you look at McLuhan as a poet,

[1:02:34] Bob Dobbs: Kroker,

[1:02:35] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:02:36] Bob Dobbs: in the McLuhan genre,

[1:02:37] Bob Dobbs: made a new next generation kind of poetry in his writing.

[1:02:42] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:02:43] Bob Dobbs: I value that.

[1:02:45] Bob Dobbs: So what you have in my chart,

[1:02:47] Bob Dobbs: you've got two Americans,

[1:02:49] Bob Dobbs: Thompson and LaRouche,

[1:02:51] Bob Dobbs: versus or interplaying with two Canadians,

[1:02:54] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan and Kroker.

[1:02:56] Bob Dobbs: And LaRouche was born in 1922,

[1:02:59] Bob Dobbs: Thompson's younger,

[1:02:59] Bob Dobbs: 1938.

[1:03:01] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan 1911,

[1:03:03] Bob Dobbs: Kroker 1945.

[1:03:05] Bob Dobbs: So you've got a young and old from each country.

[1:03:08] Bob Dobbs: And

[1:03:09] Bob Dobbs: I'm here today with dual citizenship.

[1:03:14] Bob Dobbs: I'm a Canadian and an American,

[1:03:16] Bob Dobbs: so I'm bridging.

[1:03:18] Bob Dobbs: I'm the interface.

[1:03:22] Bob Dobbs: But I'm saying that the technology that comes after the four phases is an integrating thing.

[1:03:30] Bob Dobbs: So the analog media in Kroker is movie.

[1:03:34] Bob Dobbs: It's at the top of the column in his quadrant.

[1:03:38] Bob Dobbs: The analog media in

[1:03:40] Bob Dobbs: Thompson is to print a book,

[1:03:42] Bob Dobbs: and McLuhan electric media,

[1:03:45] Bob Dobbs: and

[1:03:46] Bob Dobbs: LaRouche newspaper.

[1:03:48] Bob Dobbs: So it's the complementary medium that goes with the era.

[1:03:54] Bob Dobbs: So radio and newspaper go together.

[1:03:57] Bob Dobbs: Television and pop,

[1:03:59] Bob Dobbs: electric.

[1:04:00] Bob Dobbs: pop culture go together now the computer retrieves the book a lot of people in the 70s and 80s started reading books and McLuhan predicted that he said the the boomer generation I don't think he had that term but the TV generation he said would discover books in

[1:04:20] Bob Dobbs: their 30s and 40s when they had finally developed an identity you know the young tribal kids

[1:04:29] Bob Dobbs: in the early years don't have a private identity yet.

[1:04:32] Bob Dobbs: It takes them 30,

[1:04:33] Bob Dobbs: 40 years.

[1:04:34] Bob Dobbs: So I noticed as boomers got older,

[1:04:38] Bob Dobbs: they did a lot more reading than they did in their

[1:04:41] Bob Dobbs: 20s.

[1:04:42] Bob Dobbs: In their 20s was the 70s,

[1:04:44] Bob Dobbs: and people,

[1:04:45] Bob Dobbs: the main medium was movies,

[1:04:47] Bob Dobbs: if you remember.

[1:04:48] Bob Dobbs: Everybody went to movies.

[1:04:50] Bob Dobbs: It seemed to get their cultural meaning from cinema.

[1:04:54] Bob Dobbs: Do you remember that phase?

[1:04:56] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:04:56] Cameron McEwen: sort of,

[1:04:57] Cameron McEwen: but I mean,

[1:04:57] Cameron McEwen: you could also.

[1:04:58] Bob Dobbs: argue they got it from music oh yeah music is all it's the more more powerful ground as McLuhan said we're leaving it living entirely by music probably the interplay of radio television

[1:05:13] Bob Dobbs: computer and holy pathy satellite squared is a musical process and therefore you have the non views the non musical media as a complimentary so newspaper

[1:05:29] Cameron McEwen: One thing I'd note about the chart is that if you're looking,

[1:05:33] Cameron McEwen: for example,

[1:05:34] Cameron McEwen: at newspaper,

[1:05:35] Cameron McEwen: electric media,

[1:05:36] Cameron McEwen: printed book,

[1:05:38] Cameron McEwen: and movie,

[1:05:40] Cameron McEwen: this is obviously not time in our usual thinking about it.

[1:05:48] Cameron McEwen: You're skipping around,

[1:05:50] Cameron McEwen: and that skipping around is kind of what builds.

[1:05:57] Cameron McEwen: the chart and what comes out of the chart as its question.

[1:06:02] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[1:06:04] Bob Dobbs: right.

[1:06:04] Bob Dobbs: So the middle thing is showing,

[1:06:10] Bob Dobbs: because we're virtualized,

[1:06:14] Bob Dobbs: magnetic city,

[1:06:15] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan called it,

[1:06:17] Bob Dobbs: we're in the global membrane.

[1:06:19] Bob Dobbs: I had to cite ineffable,

[1:06:22] Bob Dobbs: intangible civilizations.

[1:06:23] Bob Dobbs: So the Thompson

[1:06:26] Bob Dobbs: quadrant plays

[1:06:29] Bob Dobbs: Atlantis off of Tokyo and that's Thompson's book Pacific shift 1985 that's culture business moving towards China the Pacific shift he called it in the mid 80s and then

[1:06:44] Bob Dobbs: Los Angeles is Hollywood and more and more virtual entertainment so that's Lemurian and Lemurian is it based on a very private

[1:06:55] Bob Dobbs: source of information,

[1:06:57] Bob Dobbs: the

[1:06:57] Bob Dobbs: Evergreens channel through Michael Blake Read,

[1:07:00] Bob Dobbs: described the difference between the Atlantis culture and the earlier Lemurian culture.

[1:07:06] Bob Dobbs: And the main thing about Lemuria was the king could not see anything below the court.

[1:07:13] Bob Dobbs: So if a bridge fell down,

[1:07:18] Bob Dobbs: he would make a gesture with his hand.

[1:07:24] Bob Dobbs: And a couple days later,

[1:07:25] Bob Dobbs: the bridge was back,

[1:07:27] Bob Dobbs: but he couldn't see the people who built it.

[1:07:30] Bob Dobbs: So he thought he made,

[1:07:32] Bob Dobbs: he manifested it.

[1:07:33] Bob Dobbs: So this is very early consciousness,

[1:07:37] Bob Dobbs: according to the evolutionary setup of the evergreens philosophy or history of cultural evolution.

[1:07:46] Bob Dobbs: Lemuria was about 18...

[1:07:48] Cameron McEwen: Remember in the history of an error from Nietzsche,

[1:07:52] Cameron McEwen: I,

[1:07:52] Cameron McEwen: Plato,

[1:07:53] Cameron McEwen: am the truth.

[1:07:55] Bob Dobbs: Say that again?

[1:07:56] Bob Dobbs: In Nietzsche,

[1:07:58] Bob Dobbs: what?

[1:07:58] Cameron McEwen: In Nietzsche,

[1:07:59] Cameron McEwen: in his History of an Error,

[1:08:01] Cameron McEwen: which we've talked about many times,

[1:08:03] Cameron McEwen: he begins with,

[1:08:05] Cameron McEwen: I,

[1:08:05] Cameron McEwen: Plato,

[1:08:06] Cameron McEwen: am the truth.

[1:08:08] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:08:09] Cameron McEwen: I brought that up as being sort of I,

[1:08:12] Cameron McEwen: Bob Dobbs,

[1:08:13] Cameron McEwen: am the truth earlier in our conversation tonight.

[1:08:17] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:08:18] Cameron McEwen: But here,

[1:08:18] Cameron McEwen: I'm just saying that your representation of the Lemurian king is...

[1:08:24] Cameron McEwen: just that.

[1:08:26] Bob Dobbs: I,

[1:08:27] Cameron McEwen: the Lemurian king,

[1:08:28] Cameron McEwen: am the truth.

[1:08:29] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[1:08:30] Bob Dobbs: And Plato wrote about Atlantis.

[1:08:33] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.

[1:08:34] Cameron McEwen: So

[1:08:35] Cameron McEwen: I was just going to ask you about that.

[1:08:36] Cameron McEwen: When you say the opposite point from

[1:08:41] Cameron McEwen: Tokyo is

[1:08:43] Cameron McEwen: Atlantea, it's hard to know if that's the current sort of NATO structure you

[1:08:55] Cameron McEwen: based on the Atlantic Ocean,

[1:08:57] Cameron McEwen: or if it's some sort of mythic idea of Atlantis.

[1:09:01] Bob Dobbs: It's mythic.

[1:09:03] Bob Dobbs: It would have to say Atlantic if it was

[1:09:05] Bob Dobbs: NATO.

[1:09:07] Bob Dobbs: But look at what I have in the LaRouche quadrant.

[1:09:10] Bob Dobbs: It's Egyptian versus Paris,

[1:09:14] Bob Dobbs: interplaying with Paris.

[1:09:16] Bob Dobbs: And Napoleon and these guys,

[1:09:17] Bob Dobbs: they brought a lot of Egyptian artifacts to Paris.

[1:09:23] Bob Dobbs: And so,

[1:09:23] Bob Dobbs: and Paris was...

[1:09:25] Bob Dobbs: the hip place for people in their

[1:09:30] Bob Dobbs: 20s and 30s.

[1:09:31] Bob Dobbs: They would go to Paris.

[1:09:32] Bob Dobbs: Trudeau,

[1:09:32] Bob Dobbs: after World War II,

[1:09:33] Bob Dobbs: went to Paris.

[1:09:34] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:09:34] Bob Dobbs: you went to Paris in the 40s and early 50s.

[1:09:37] Bob Dobbs: You didn't go to New York so much.

[1:09:39] Bob Dobbs: But then New York became the hip place in the

[1:09:43] Bob Dobbs: 50s and 60s.

[1:09:43] Bob Dobbs: So you have Chinese versus New York.

[1:09:48] Bob Dobbs: So these are cultural ghosts or horror,

[1:09:52] Bob Dobbs: horizontal.

[1:09:54] Bob Dobbs: Horizontal phenomena,

[1:09:55] Bob Dobbs: threats in the global theater.

[1:09:58] Bob Dobbs: And then Atlantis versus Tokyo,

[1:10:01] Bob Dobbs: and Lemurian is Los Angeles.

[1:10:03] Bob Dobbs: And since the Lemurian king didn't see anything below them,

[1:10:08] Bob Dobbs: that's the metaphor for Los Angeles executives who manage these colossal entertainment anti-environment,

[1:10:17] Bob Dobbs: and you don't have much access to them.

[1:10:20] Bob Dobbs: They're the virtual class.

[1:10:22] Bob Dobbs: It's evolved to that point in the 70s.

[1:10:25] Bob Dobbs: So that's why Lemuria is retrieved in relation to Los Angeles.

[1:10:29] Bob Dobbs: But it's a very particular source,

[1:10:33] Bob Dobbs: Michael Blake Read channeled the evergreens.

[1:10:35] Bob Dobbs: That's an idiosyncratic source for me to use,

[1:10:39] Bob Dobbs: but

[1:10:40] Bob Dobbs: I liked what I learned from the evergreens,

[1:10:42] Bob Dobbs: so I stuck it in there.

[1:10:44] Bob Dobbs: So sometimes you have some of my personal quirky biography in here.

[1:10:49] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:10:49] Bob Dobbs: I'm not trying to say that I'm the truth,

[1:10:52] Bob Dobbs: but I'm saying that media...

[1:10:54] Bob Dobbs: is becoming co-anesthetic.

[1:10:57] Bob Dobbs: That's a Theall term.

[1:10:59] Bob Dobbs: Do you know that term?

[1:11:01] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:11:02] Cameron McEwen: you've talked about it in the past,

[1:11:04] Cameron McEwen: but I'm not familiar with it.

[1:11:05] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:11:06] Bob Dobbs: more and more,

[1:11:07] Bob Dobbs: media is putting you in the driver's seat.

[1:11:09] Bob Dobbs: So today,

[1:11:10] Bob Dobbs: a kid can make their own video,

[1:11:12] Bob Dobbs: their own movie,

[1:11:13] Bob Dobbs: with the digital equipment they have,

[1:11:16] Bob Dobbs: on a small screen or even on their smartphone.

[1:11:19] Bob Dobbs: They are directing a vast...

[1:11:22] Bob Dobbs: previously vast media anti-environment in the analog phase.

[1:11:26] Bob Dobbs: So they've shrunk.

[1:11:27] Cameron McEwen: True,

[1:11:28] Cameron McEwen: but that's a good example of how things are getting faster,

[1:11:36] Cameron McEwen: more software,

[1:11:38] Cameron McEwen: more manipulable,

[1:11:40] Cameron McEwen: etc.

[1:11:41] Cameron McEwen: on the horizontal line,

[1:11:43] Cameron McEwen: but on the vertical line of superficiality and deep thinking,

[1:11:50] Cameron McEwen: as you might say.

[1:11:52] Cameron McEwen: then superficiality is just issuing red alerts.

[1:11:59] Cameron McEwen: We're at the very end of that vertical axis.

[1:12:04] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:12:04] Bob Dobbs: remember,

[1:12:06] Bob Dobbs: Trump couldn't finish his sentences,

[1:12:07] Bob Dobbs: but Biden's even more evolved.

[1:12:09] Bob Dobbs: He Antigonish his syllables.

[1:12:15] Bob Dobbs: There's a weird involution or something that's happening.

[1:12:19] Bob Dobbs: But the...

[1:12:21] Bob Dobbs: So I'm trying to show those kind of negative effects,

[1:12:25] Bob Dobbs: Ivins,

[1:12:26] Bob Dobbs: as well as services.

[1:12:28] Bob Dobbs: And we can't tell who's winning,

[1:12:31] Bob Dobbs: services or Ivins.

[1:12:32] Bob Dobbs: What did you say?

[1:12:34] Cameron McEwen: What is 2214 in the

[1:12:37] Cameron McEwen: Lemurian spot,

[1:12:39] Cameron McEwen: but in your sector?

[1:12:42] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:12:42] Bob Dobbs: I'm glad you brought them up.

[1:12:43] Bob Dobbs: It's very important.

[1:12:45] Bob Dobbs: If you look in the far left column,

[1:12:50] Bob Dobbs: You'll see in the second position under the title,

[1:12:52] Bob Dobbs: Holeopathic Radius Satellite,

[1:12:53] Bob Dobbs: you'll see seven in LaRouche.

[1:12:56] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan is 22,

[1:12:59] Bob Dobbs: Thompson's 18,

[1:13:00] Bob Dobbs: Kroker is 14,

[1:13:01] Bob Dobbs: and I'm eight.

[1:13:03] Bob Dobbs: But it's eight on its side,

[1:13:04] Bob Dobbs: so it's an Mae Brussell strip or infinity.

[1:13:11] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:13:11] Bob Dobbs: again,

[1:13:12] Bob Dobbs: eccentric reasons.

[1:13:14] Bob Dobbs: The Evergreens told me that...

[1:13:16] Bob Dobbs: seven was no longer going to be the archetypal lucky number.

[1:13:20] Bob Dobbs: It was shifting to eight.

[1:13:22] Bob Dobbs: It didn't say why,

[1:13:23] Bob Dobbs: but it was changing.

[1:13:25] Bob Dobbs: So since LaRouche is a bit of an old-fashioned hardware guy,

[1:13:30] Bob Dobbs: I slapped seven on him.

[1:13:32] Bob Dobbs: He's got the old-fashioned luck plane,

[1:13:37] Bob Dobbs: to quote the Church of the SubGenius.

[1:13:40] Bob Dobbs: So lucky seven.

[1:13:41] Bob Dobbs: So to indicate he's a bit out of date.

[1:13:44] Bob Dobbs: But you have to know what I've said,

[1:13:45] Bob Dobbs: and I do say it on my shows occasionally.

[1:13:47] Bob Dobbs: I explain the difference between 7 and 8.

[1:13:50] Bob Dobbs: So he's 7.

[1:13:51] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:13:51] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan is the analog,

[1:13:54] Bob Dobbs: what is it,

[1:13:56] Bob Dobbs: the analogy of proportions,

[1:14:00] Bob Dobbs: Thomism.

[1:14:00] Bob Dobbs: He has a phrase for that,

[1:14:02] Bob Dobbs: analogical something of proportions.

[1:14:05] Bob Dobbs: That's 2 as to 2.

[1:14:07] Bob Dobbs: A is to B is C is to D.

[1:14:08] Bob Dobbs: So he's 22.

[1:14:10] Cameron McEwen: Analogical awareness.

[1:14:12] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:14:14] Bob Dobbs: And so

[1:14:15] Bob Dobbs: 22 is not a number.

[1:14:18] Bob Dobbs: Many people will say in numerology that's a master number or something.

[1:14:23] Bob Dobbs: I'm looking at the shape of the number.

[1:14:25] Bob Dobbs: 2 and 2.

[1:14:27] Bob Dobbs: A is to B and C is to

[1:14:30] Bob Dobbs: D. Now 18 is

[1:14:32] Bob Dobbs: Isis. In mythology,

[1:14:36] Bob Dobbs: I can't remember where I saw it,

[1:14:38] Bob Dobbs: maybe in the occult,

[1:14:39] Bob Dobbs: Isis was symbolized by the number 18.

[1:14:42] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:14:42] Bob Dobbs: you'll look in the

[1:14:44] Bob Dobbs: Thompson Quadrant,

[1:14:46] Bob Dobbs: you will see

[1:14:47] Bob Dobbs: Cowgirl, second from the bottom,

[1:14:51] Bob Dobbs: as opposed to Detective.

[1:14:53] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan used to say he was a detective.

[1:14:56] Bob Dobbs: And lawyers,

[1:14:57] Bob Dobbs: Zappa said in the 80s,

[1:14:58] Bob Dobbs: we've got too many lawyers,

[1:14:59] Bob Dobbs: so that's the Kroker Quadrant.

[1:15:04] Bob Dobbs: And in mine,

[1:15:05] Bob Dobbs: it's producer.

[1:15:07] Bob Dobbs: And that's a general term.

[1:15:08] Bob Dobbs: People were able to produce all kinds of media by the

[1:15:12] Bob Dobbs: 90s.

[1:15:12] Bob Dobbs: And one of the phenomena was zines.

[1:15:14] Bob Dobbs: And you'll see above producer,

[1:15:16] Bob Dobbs: Ben is Dead.

[1:15:16] Bob Dobbs: That was one of the first and more popular well-known zines called Ben is Dead.

[1:15:24] Bob Dobbs: I've just outlined the meaning of the numbers in the left-hand column.

[1:15:33] Cameron McEwen: 18 is ISIS.

[1:15:33] Cameron McEwen: Let me just ask some questions about this.

[1:15:36] Cameron McEwen: First,

[1:15:37] Cameron McEwen: when you say 18 is ISIS,

[1:15:39] Cameron McEwen: probably that has to do with the numerical equivalence of the word ISIS in Greek,

[1:15:47] Cameron McEwen: because all the Greek letters were also numbers,

[1:15:49] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:15:49] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:15:50] Cameron McEwen: So if the ancient association was...

[1:15:53] Cameron McEwen: with Isis was 18,

[1:15:55] Cameron McEwen: then that'll be the sum of the Greek letters.

[1:15:58] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[1:15:59] Cameron McEwen: Then when you have the

[1:16:02] Cameron McEwen: 8 on its side in your quadrant or your section,

[1:16:09] Cameron McEwen: yeah,

[1:16:09] Cameron McEwen: in your quadrant,

[1:16:10] Cameron McEwen: the 8 on its side is infinity,

[1:16:14] Cameron McEwen: but it might also be taken as the line in the formula chart.

[1:16:23] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:16:24] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:16:24] Cameron McEwen: the flat line.

[1:16:26] Cameron McEwen: That's right,

[1:16:26] Cameron McEwen: the flat line.

[1:16:27] Bob Dobbs: Yep.

[1:16:28] Cameron McEwen: So it's a kind of reaching back to the formula chart.

[1:16:33] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:16:33] Cameron McEwen: At the same time that it's reaching ahead into something unknown on the other side of the Tiny Note chart.

[1:16:42] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:16:43] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:16:43] Bob Dobbs: let me,

[1:16:43] Bob Dobbs: I didn't explain 14.

[1:16:45] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:16:45] Bob Dobbs: this is unique.

[1:16:46] Bob Dobbs: Because we were in the global membrane,

[1:16:49] Bob Dobbs: which is like an intense,

[1:16:51] Bob Dobbs: dense global theater,

[1:16:53] Bob Dobbs: with less theatrical structure.

[1:16:56] Bob Dobbs: People are just super angels,

[1:16:58] Bob Dobbs: as McClellan's term,

[1:16:59] Bob Dobbs: everywhere at once.

[1:17:03] Bob Dobbs: That unity factor is symbolized by one.

[1:17:07] Bob Dobbs: But four is quadrophrenia.

[1:17:09] Bob Dobbs: And in each quadrant,

[1:17:11] Bob Dobbs: you have a condition,

[1:17:12] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:17:13] Bob Dobbs: paranoia,

[1:17:14] Bob Dobbs: schizophrenia,

[1:17:15] Bob Dobbs: hysteria,

[1:17:16] Bob Dobbs: and panic.

[1:17:17] Bob Dobbs: So people put on the surface.

[1:17:21] Bob Dobbs: more and more surface of their lives,

[1:17:22] Bob Dobbs: they put on these emotional intensities.

[1:17:28] Bob Dobbs: And they fake these panics,

[1:17:32] Bob Dobbs: hysterias,

[1:17:33] Bob Dobbs: and schizophrenia,

[1:17:34] Bob Dobbs: or they exaggerate it as they flow around the global membrane.

[1:17:39] Bob Dobbs: So one and four has a symbolic meaning,

[1:17:43] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:17:43] Bob Dobbs: See what I'm saying?

[1:17:45] Bob Dobbs: It's one and your four.

[1:17:49] Bob Dobbs: And then eight is the most.

[1:17:51] Cameron McEwen: That's like the way

[1:17:53] Cameron McEwen: ISIS might be a sum.

[1:17:57] Cameron McEwen: The

[1:17:58] Cameron McEwen: 14 is not a number.

[1:18:03] Cameron McEwen: It's a configuration.

[1:18:04] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[1:18:05] Bob Dobbs: It's a condition.

[1:18:07] Bob Dobbs: And you'll see it in the Dobbs quadrant,

[1:18:09] Bob Dobbs: three from the bottom,

[1:18:11] Bob Dobbs: second column from the left,

[1:18:13] Bob Dobbs: quadrophrenia plus,

[1:18:15] Bob Dobbs: and then the column second from the right.

[1:18:20] Bob Dobbs: And in the position two from the bottom,

[1:18:22] Bob Dobbs: all four,

[1:18:23] Bob Dobbs: the previous four,

[1:18:24] Bob Dobbs: plus stages of apprehension.

[1:18:27] Bob Dobbs: So you see the four-five situation is happening.

[1:18:30] Bob Dobbs: And then you see it under demon nuclei in the opposite quadrant.

[1:18:34] Bob Dobbs: In the fourth position,

[1:18:34] Bob Dobbs: you've got quadrophrenia slash ecstasy.

[1:18:38] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:18:38] Bob Dobbs: Harlot's ghost never got written.

[1:18:42] Bob Dobbs: Norman Mailer,

[1:18:44] Bob Dobbs: who was,

[1:18:44] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:18:44] Bob Dobbs: I'm a clue,

[1:18:45] Bob Dobbs: and he...

[1:18:47] Cameron McEwen: Nah,

[1:18:48] Cameron McEwen: he was the opposite of him.

[1:18:50] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:18:50] Cameron McEwen: If you mean a

[1:18:51] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan, he was a McLuhan groupie,

[1:18:55] Cameron McEwen: but he understood very little of

[1:19:01] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan. He suspected that

[1:19:05] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan had stuff to say to him in the realm of metaphor,

[1:19:11] Cameron McEwen: let's say.

[1:19:12] Cameron McEwen: But in his life,

[1:19:15] Cameron McEwen: Mailer was the exact embodiment of...

[1:19:20] Cameron McEwen: what McLuhan was not and did not think.

[1:19:25] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[1:19:26] Bob Dobbs: exactly.

[1:19:27] Bob Dobbs: And I put it into,

[1:19:28] Bob Dobbs: it's an American version of media ecology versus a Canadian type of media ecology.

[1:19:35] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:19:35] Bob Dobbs: I agree with that.

[1:19:38] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:19:38] Bob Dobbs: You saying you agree?

[1:19:40] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:19:40] Cameron McEwen: I agree with what you just said very much.

[1:19:43] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:19:44] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:19:44] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan says on,

[1:19:45] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:19:45] Bob Dobbs: page 136 of Cliché to archetype,

[1:19:47] Bob Dobbs: the eight types of sensory.

[1:19:50] Bob Dobbs: biases for plenary awareness,

[1:19:52] Bob Dobbs: America is kinetic manipulatory.

[1:19:54] Bob Dobbs: That's what Mailer is.

[1:19:55] Bob Dobbs: He's a punch-drunk kinetic manipulatory American.

[1:19:59] Bob Dobbs: We don't have a category for Canadians,

[1:20:02] Bob Dobbs: but I did a talk in 2001.

[1:20:05] Bob Dobbs: I decided that Canadians were quadrophrenia intense because we were the borderline case.

[1:20:14] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan defined Canada as interacting with all kinds of borders,

[1:20:18] Bob Dobbs: so we had to be a little more passive and not so hyped up in our national identity.

[1:20:22] Bob Dobbs: Remember that kind of talk he would make?

[1:20:26] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:20:26] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.

[1:20:27] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:20:27] Bob Dobbs: so McLuhan was that.

[1:20:29] Bob Dobbs: And you see that panel with him,

[1:20:32] Bob Dobbs: Mailer,

[1:20:34] Bob Dobbs: and Malcolm Muggeridge done in 1968.

[1:20:38] Bob Dobbs: That's amazing.

[1:20:39] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan just sitting there very relaxed,

[1:20:41] Bob Dobbs: kind of smirking,

[1:20:43] Bob Dobbs: above it all kind of thing.

[1:20:45] Bob Dobbs: Muggeridge is the visually biased British person who's in there defending the

[1:20:50] Bob Dobbs: 19th century or something.

[1:20:53] Bob Dobbs: The Goomberg-Gaussie in Mailer's The Electronic,

[1:20:55] Bob Dobbs: Kinetic,

[1:20:56] Bob Dobbs: Aggressive

[1:20:57] Bob Dobbs: American.

[1:20:59] Bob Dobbs: You see it there in the interplay of the three of them with Robert Fulford,

[1:21:04] Bob Dobbs: the moderator.

[1:21:06] Bob Dobbs: Anyways,

[1:21:06] Bob Dobbs: that's a great...

[1:21:08] Bob Dobbs: I've shown that to people.

[1:21:10] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:21:11] Bob Dobbs: in the McLuhan revival,

[1:21:13] Bob Dobbs: Americans I met in New York in the

[1:21:15] Bob Dobbs: 90s, they didn't know much about McLuhan,

[1:21:18] Bob Dobbs: but they could look at the debate between McLuhan and...

[1:21:22] Bob Dobbs: And Mailer,

[1:21:22] Bob Dobbs: 1967,

[1:21:24] Bob Dobbs: some CBC show,

[1:21:26] Bob Dobbs: is actually broadcast the day that McLuhan was having surgery,

[1:21:30] Bob Dobbs: November 25th,

[1:21:30] Bob Dobbs: 1967,

[1:21:32] Bob Dobbs: brain surgery.

[1:21:33] Bob Dobbs: But this American guy said,

[1:21:37] Bob Dobbs: wow,

[1:21:38] Bob Dobbs: Mailer is so hot,

[1:21:39] Bob Dobbs: he's so moralistic.

[1:21:42] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan is really cool.

[1:21:44] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:21:44] Bob Dobbs: I remember back in 67,

[1:21:47] Bob Dobbs: a couple of my friends watched it and said,

[1:21:48] Bob Dobbs: what's wrong with McLuhan?

[1:21:49] Bob Dobbs: He's not saying anything.

[1:21:51] Bob Dobbs: They thought McLuhan was too passive,

[1:21:53] Bob Dobbs: but that was a different sensibility in the 60s.

[1:21:56] Bob Dobbs: Then you get maybe worn-out Americans who are sick of all the crazy fights that America got into the last 50 years,

[1:22:05] Bob Dobbs: that they appreciate the cool,

[1:22:07] Bob Dobbs: relaxed McLuhan in the year 2000.

[1:22:13] Cameron McEwen: Unfortunately,

[1:22:15] Cameron McEwen: in the United States,

[1:22:17] Cameron McEwen: that idea of being relaxed,

[1:22:20] Cameron McEwen: has basically lost out to the mailer.

[1:22:26] Cameron McEwen: Mailer's whole need was to be a unit,

[1:22:30] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:22:31] Cameron McEwen: Everything that he did in life,

[1:22:35] Cameron McEwen: the fighting,

[1:22:35] Cameron McEwen: the drinking,

[1:22:36] Cameron McEwen: the speeding,

[1:22:38] Cameron McEwen: the writing,

[1:22:40] Cameron McEwen: was all intended to remove him from complexity to singularity.

[1:22:50] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:22:51] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[1:22:52] Cameron McEwen: So all of the stuff about the unique nation and

[1:22:59] Cameron McEwen: America being number one and all this sort of stuff is the victory of that kind of thinking,

[1:23:06] Cameron McEwen: which is a terrible danger both to the country and to the world.

[1:23:10] Bob Dobbs: Yep.

[1:23:12] Bob Dobbs: And I guess,

[1:23:13] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:23:13] Bob Dobbs: Trump represented that for a lot of people.

[1:23:16] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.

[1:23:18] Cameron McEwen: Okay.

[1:23:19] Cameron McEwen: But I think we'll get,

[1:23:21] Cameron McEwen: when we get into your book.

[1:23:24] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:23:24] Bob Dobbs: it's about Trump.

[1:23:26] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:23:28] Cameron McEwen: we'll probably see that the figure is more complex than that.

[1:23:32] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[1:23:32] Bob Dobbs: it is.

[1:23:33] Cameron McEwen: That there's stuff going on.

[1:23:35] Cameron McEwen: He is definitely,

[1:23:38] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[1:23:38] Cameron McEwen: a number one guy.

[1:23:40] Cameron McEwen: But at the same time,

[1:23:42] Cameron McEwen: there's some strange countercurrents going on.

[1:23:46] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:23:47] Bob Dobbs: And that would bring in my five-body model.

[1:23:50] Bob Dobbs: There's multiple bodies going on Trump.

[1:23:55] Cameron McEwen: All right.

[1:23:55] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:23:55] Cameron McEwen: we'll talk about that.

[1:23:56] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:23:58] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:23:58] Bob Dobbs: So back to now,

[1:23:59] Bob Dobbs: why 2214 versus Dobstown?

[1:24:04] Bob Dobbs: In my up phatic entity,

[1:24:08] Bob Dobbs: I call the baby boomers,

[1:24:10] Bob Dobbs: I assign them the number 22,

[1:24:12] Bob Dobbs: because they're more with the television era.

[1:24:16] Bob Dobbs: Generation X and Generation

[1:24:20] Bob Dobbs: Y are closer to the computer chip body era.

[1:24:24] Bob Dobbs: So that's 14.

[1:24:26] Bob Dobbs: That's Kroker,

[1:24:27] Bob Dobbs: 1-4.

[1:24:27] Bob Dobbs: Remember,

[1:24:28] Bob Dobbs: Kroker chip body.

[1:24:29] Bob Dobbs: So you have the two generations,

[1:24:31] Bob Dobbs: 22 and 14,

[1:24:34] Bob Dobbs: and they're fighting or interacting with me,

[1:24:39] Bob Dobbs: which is Dobstown,

[1:24:41] Bob Dobbs: and

[1:24:42] Bob Dobbs: ION another level.

[1:24:44] Bob Dobbs: And...

[1:24:49] Bob Dobbs: In the essay,

[1:24:50] Bob Dobbs: I talk about the kids born around 1990,

[1:24:53] Bob Dobbs: at the end of the Cold War,

[1:24:54] Bob Dobbs: and I say that has a big effect on them.

[1:24:57] Bob Dobbs: And so they become the millennials.

[1:25:00] Bob Dobbs: And

[1:25:03] Bob Dobbs: I was talking tonight with Carolyn about the characteristics of the millennials.

[1:25:07] Bob Dobbs: And I said,

[1:25:08] Bob Dobbs: a lot of those are what people think I have.

[1:25:12] Bob Dobbs: So I said,

[1:25:12] Bob Dobbs: these are my kids.

[1:25:14] Bob Dobbs: And that's what I predicted in 95,

[1:25:16] Bob Dobbs: what I wrote about it.

[1:25:18] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:25:18] Bob Dobbs: I represent the kids,

[1:25:21] Bob Dobbs: Generation

[1:25:22] Bob Dobbs: Y or Z,

[1:25:23] Bob Dobbs: whatever they are,

[1:25:24] Bob Dobbs: the Postman X,

[1:25:26] Bob Dobbs: the millennials.

[1:25:27] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:25:29] Bob Dobbs: yes,

[1:25:29] Bob Dobbs: there is a part where Bob is,

[1:25:33] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:25:34] Bob Dobbs: I am Bob Dobbs,

[1:25:35] Bob Dobbs: the Center of Culture and Technology.

[1:25:39] Bob Dobbs: But I'm also saying it's a tendency that everybody's getting into.

[1:25:43] Bob Dobbs: Everybody becomes the co-anesthetic director or producer of their five-body structure.

[1:25:50] Bob Dobbs: And they're all quadrophrenia.

[1:25:52] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:25:53] Bob Dobbs: I'm an artist.

[1:25:54] Bob Dobbs: the mirror of what has happened to the generations.

[1:26:01] Cameron McEwen: I follow your description,

[1:26:03] Cameron McEwen: but I just note that if everybody's quadrophrenia,

[1:26:09] Cameron McEwen: but on their own as a director,

[1:26:12] Cameron McEwen: then everybody turns into billiard balls and everybody's just a cloud of particles.

[1:26:23] Cameron McEwen: interacting with each other.

[1:26:25] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[1:26:26] Bob Dobbs: exactly.

[1:26:27] Bob Dobbs: And that's what I have the subatomic particles there.

[1:26:31] Bob Dobbs: Because in the end,

[1:26:33] Bob Dobbs: this is a chart of five billiard balls in 1995 in the afterimage of the Android Meme,

[1:26:44] Bob Dobbs: which is leading to the tech body,

[1:26:46] Bob Dobbs: though I didn't know that at the time.

[1:26:49] Bob Dobbs: I just knew we were going someplace very strange.

[1:26:52] Bob Dobbs: And

[1:26:53] Bob Dobbs: I was trying to show how we got there,

[1:26:56] Bob Dobbs: the steps in the chart.

[1:27:01] Cameron McEwen: But notice that if you say,

[1:27:06] Cameron McEwen: I'm trying to indicate how we got there,

[1:27:10] Cameron McEwen: there presumably is the tech body.

[1:27:13] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:27:14] Cameron McEwen: And so when somebody writes the history,

[1:27:22] Cameron McEwen: the genealogy,

[1:27:24] Cameron McEwen: the etymology of something,

[1:27:28] Cameron McEwen: they have to go back from the new thing.

[1:27:33] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:27:34] Cameron McEwen: So one of the problems,

[1:27:37] Cameron McEwen: as I see it,

[1:27:38] Cameron McEwen: with the Tiny Note chart,

[1:27:40] Cameron McEwen: is that you want to have it both be something And.

[1:27:49] Cameron McEwen: indicative of something in 1995 and be the proper background of something that happens

[1:28:01] Cameron McEwen: 15 or 25 years later.

[1:28:04] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:28:05] Cameron McEwen: And

[1:28:08] Cameron McEwen: I'm not so sure that those things are very compatible.

[1:28:14] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:28:14] Bob Dobbs: I don't know.

[1:28:17] Bob Dobbs: I'm trying to explain.

[1:28:17] Bob Dobbs: Explain how they resonate or overlap like a moire.

[1:28:22] Bob Dobbs: That was Thompson's term,

[1:28:24] Bob Dobbs: M-O-I-R-E,

[1:28:26] Bob Dobbs: with an acute over the E,

[1:28:28] Bob Dobbs: I think it was.

[1:28:30] Cameron McEwen: That means fate in Greek.

[1:28:34] Bob Dobbs: Does it?

[1:28:35] Bob Dobbs: But I was thinking of those things on tables,

[1:28:39] Bob Dobbs: those cloths,

[1:28:42] Bob Dobbs: little patterns that you put maybe a dish on.

[1:28:47] Bob Dobbs: and it's a mosaic or a moiré pattern,

[1:28:51] Bob Dobbs: this is overlaying.

[1:28:53] Bob Dobbs: This chart is overlaying five levels,

[1:28:57] Bob Dobbs: maybe six levels,

[1:28:59] Bob Dobbs: six nice dainty little moirés.

[1:29:03] Bob Dobbs: What are they called?

[1:29:05] Bob Dobbs: Dusters?

[1:29:06] Cameron McEwen: I don't know.

[1:29:08] Cameron McEwen: Doilies or something.

[1:29:08] Bob Dobbs: Doilies.

[1:29:09] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:29:10] Bob Dobbs: doily kind of things.

[1:29:12] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:29:13] Cameron McEwen: But that's not a moiré,

[1:29:14] Cameron McEwen: at least as far as I know.

[1:29:16] Cameron McEwen: Maybe.

[1:29:16] Cameron McEwen: There may be some English word that

[1:29:18] Cameron McEwen: I don't know,

[1:29:19] Cameron McEwen: or French word,

[1:29:21] Cameron McEwen: or even Greek word,

[1:29:22] Cameron McEwen: but

[1:29:24] Cameron McEwen: I'm sure Thompson is using

[1:29:27] Cameron McEwen: M-O-I-R-E, he's using the Greek sense of the faith.

[1:29:33] Cameron McEwen: In fact,

[1:29:33] Cameron McEwen: there were three of them.

[1:29:35] Bob Dobbs: Faith,

[1:29:37] Bob Dobbs: F-A-I-T-H is what you're saying.

[1:29:40] Cameron McEwen: Faith,

[1:29:40] Cameron McEwen: F-A-T-E.

[1:29:42] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[1:29:43] Bob Dobbs: no,

[1:29:44] Bob Dobbs: he meant that...

[1:29:46] Bob Dobbs: isomorphic.

[1:29:47] Bob Dobbs: They're overlaying.

[1:29:48] Bob Dobbs: And so each layer,

[1:29:52] Bob Dobbs: each doily had holes in them.

[1:29:55] Cameron McEwen: That's M-O-R-P-H-E.

[1:29:59] Cameron McEwen: Morphe.

[1:30:01] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:30:01] Bob Dobbs: he spelled it M-O-I-R-E.

[1:30:04] Bob Dobbs: Let's just see what happens if you put that in.

[1:30:08] Cameron McEwen: Morphe.

[1:30:09] Cameron McEwen: It'll come up as fate.

[1:30:11] Cameron McEwen: Great.

[1:30:13] Cameron McEwen: Destiny.

[1:30:14] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:30:14] Bob Dobbs: so So...

[1:30:15] Bob Dobbs: It's called the Moray Pattern,

[1:30:18] Bob Dobbs: and it says,

[1:30:19] Bob Dobbs: in mathematics,

[1:30:20] Bob Dobbs: physics,

[1:30:20] Bob Dobbs: and art,

[1:30:21] Bob Dobbs: Moray Patterns or Moray Fringes are large-scale interference patterns that can be produced when an opaque ruled parent with...

[1:30:31] Bob Dobbs: When an opaque ruled pattern with transparent gaps is overlaid on another similar pattern.

[1:30:38] Bob Dobbs: You get that?

[1:30:38] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[1:30:38] Cameron McEwen: that's interesting.

[1:30:40] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:30:40] Cameron McEwen: so what I would like to know is the etymology of that.

[1:30:45] Cameron McEwen: That's very interesting.

[1:30:46] Cameron McEwen: Sure,

[1:30:47] Cameron McEwen: that's like an interference pattern in a wave particle experiment.

[1:30:53] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:30:53] Bob Dobbs: which would be included in my chart.

[1:30:58] Bob Dobbs: So that's a side.

[1:31:01] Bob Dobbs: Picture of it and a statement,

[1:31:02] Bob Dobbs: but under moiré as a dictionary,

[1:31:05] Bob Dobbs: it says,

[1:31:05] Bob Dobbs: Noun,

[1:31:06] Bob Dobbs: silk fabric that has been subjected to heat and pressure rollers after weaving to give it a rippled appearance.

[1:31:15] Bob Dobbs: And as a quote,

[1:31:16] Bob Dobbs: a backless dress fashioned out of moiré in the new fashionable color.

[1:31:22] Bob Dobbs: And as an adjective,

[1:31:24] Bob Dobbs: of silk having a rippled lustrous finish.

[1:31:27] Bob Dobbs: But it doesn't give the...

[1:31:29] Bob Dobbs: philology,

[1:31:29] Bob Dobbs: etymology of the word.

[1:31:33] Bob Dobbs: I have to go into a dictionary,

[1:31:35] Bob Dobbs: I guess,

[1:31:35] Bob Dobbs: to see that.

[1:31:37] Bob Dobbs: Anyways,

[1:31:38] Bob Dobbs: that's how Thompson meant it,

[1:31:40] Bob Dobbs: and that's what I mean.

[1:31:42] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:31:42] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[1:31:42] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:31:42] Cameron McEwen: that's interesting.

[1:31:43] Cameron McEwen: I'm learning something there.

[1:31:44] Bob Dobbs: All right.

[1:31:46] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:31:46] Bob Dobbs: in mathematics,

[1:31:47] Bob Dobbs: physics,

[1:31:47] Bob Dobbs: and art,

[1:31:48] Bob Dobbs: moire patterns or moire fringes are large-scale interference patterns that can be produced when an opaque ruled pattern with transparent gaps is overlaid on another similar pattern.

[1:31:58] Cameron McEwen: And how is Moiré spelled there?

[1:32:01] Bob Dobbs: M-O-I-R-E with the acute over the E.

[1:32:10] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:32:11] Cameron McEwen: I see that.

[1:32:11] Cameron McEwen: I'm looking it up now.

[1:32:14] Cameron McEwen: And it seems to be a French word.

[1:32:16] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:32:22] Cameron McEwen: Interesting.

[1:32:22] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:32:23] Bob Dobbs: So the Tiny Note chart is McLuhan.

[1:32:28] Bob Dobbs: Each anti-environment makes the previous one an art form.

[1:32:33] Bob Dobbs: So that pattern is in the chart.

[1:32:35] Bob Dobbs: Then the Moray pattern is in the chart Thompson.

[1:32:39] Bob Dobbs: And then the nested five platonic solids is from LaRouche is in the chart,

[1:32:47] Bob Dobbs: or the chart can be seen that way.

[1:32:50] Bob Dobbs: Kroker,

[1:32:52] Bob Dobbs: when is Kroker?

[1:32:58] Bob Dobbs: It's not human,

[1:33:00] Bob Dobbs: is the Kroker thing,

[1:33:01] Bob Dobbs: Postman,

[1:33:03] Bob Dobbs: which joined at the hip I have.

[1:33:10] Bob Dobbs: Male and female joined at the hip.

[1:33:13] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:33:14] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:33:15] Bob Dobbs: Kroker quadrant is quite different.

[1:33:19] Bob Dobbs: And then

[1:33:21] Bob Dobbs: I retrieve Anthropomorphic Physical by bringing it back to quadrophrenia.

[1:33:27] Bob Dobbs: Rather than saying my genes have left me and gone into a virtual circuitry.

[1:33:34] Bob Dobbs: You see what I'm saying?

[1:33:34] Bob Dobbs: That's Kroker.

[1:33:36] Bob Dobbs: The body is dumped and the genes leave.

[1:33:39] Bob Dobbs: But I'm balancing the interplay of these four phases.

[1:33:44] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:33:45] Bob Dobbs: I'm trying to get it back into the Anthropomorphic Physical,

[1:33:47] Bob Dobbs: perhaps.

[1:33:49] Bob Dobbs: Don't know if it will work.

[1:33:56] Bob Dobbs: You see?

[1:33:57] Bob Dobbs: I'm being an ecologist there.

[1:33:59] Bob Dobbs: Apophenia.

[1:33:59] Bob Dobbs: I call it apophenia ecology.

[1:34:02] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:34:03] Bob Dobbs: so each,

[1:34:04] Bob Dobbs: the disservice or disease element is in the second column on the left,

[1:34:11] Bob Dobbs: second from the left,

[1:34:14] Bob Dobbs: two from the bottom.

[1:34:15] Bob Dobbs: So back in the

[1:34:18] Bob Dobbs: 50s, people were smokers and lung cancer.

[1:34:22] Bob Dobbs: Then as the...

[1:34:24] Bob Dobbs: software effect of the global theater came in in the later 50s and

[1:34:29] Bob Dobbs: 60s people's emotions started to get more aggravated so you had heart disease then you get into the crazy

[1:34:40] Bob Dobbs: 70s and people are their discarnate super angelic selves are becoming uh irritated by the the chemical body McLuhan used to say we were yearning to drop the physical

[1:34:53] Bob Dobbs: go technosis,

[1:34:54] Bob Dobbs: so to speak.

[1:34:56] Bob Dobbs: So you develop environmental allergies.

[1:34:59] Bob Dobbs: And then in the Android Meme phase,

[1:35:02] Bob Dobbs: you can't keep up with the Android Meme,

[1:35:04] Bob Dobbs: so you have chronic fatigue.

[1:35:07] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:35:07] Bob Dobbs: I knew these conditions from Carolyn.

[1:35:12] Bob Dobbs: She was an alternative doctor,

[1:35:14] Bob Dobbs: so she took on some of these things like chronic fatigue that mainstream medicine didn't even recognize.

[1:35:21] Bob Dobbs: I'm showing these new phenomena that I got from Carolyn's practice,

[1:35:25] Bob Dobbs: like environmental allergies.

[1:35:28] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:35:28] Bob Dobbs: mainstream doctors didn't see that.

[1:35:30] Bob Dobbs: And then you get into the Dobstown

[1:35:35] Bob Dobbs: Antimicrobial Physical,

[1:35:36] Bob Dobbs: and you just have...

[1:35:38] Bob Dobbs: Immune deficiency.

[1:35:42] Bob Dobbs: It's like an increasing,

[1:35:45] Bob Dobbs: worse problem than chronic fatigue.

[1:35:47] Bob Dobbs: Now people have no protection.

[1:35:50] Bob Dobbs: They're totally vulnerable on all five body levels,

[1:35:53] Bob Dobbs: and that also is the time of AIDS.

[1:35:55] Bob Dobbs: Do you see that?

[1:35:59] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[1:36:00] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[1:36:02] Cameron McEwen: So like many things in the chart,

[1:36:04] Cameron McEwen: immune deficiency both points...

[1:36:07] Cameron McEwen: backwards to a problem and forwards to a potential solution.

[1:36:12] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:36:13] Bob Dobbs: And,

[1:36:14] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:36:14] Bob Dobbs: our solution,

[1:36:16] Bob Dobbs: the mirror is the solution for immune deficiency,

[1:36:22] Bob Dobbs: that technology.

[1:36:26] Bob Dobbs: So 22 slash 14.

[1:36:29] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:36:30] Bob Dobbs: this has come about.

[1:36:32] Bob Dobbs: The boomers and the Generation Xers,

[1:36:34] Bob Dobbs: they don't understand millennials.

[1:36:37] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:36:37] Bob Dobbs: I'm talking journalistic,

[1:36:38] Bob Dobbs: the mythology of journalism,

[1:36:41] Bob Dobbs: and the crazy issues that journalists come up with,

[1:36:43] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:36:44] Bob Dobbs: We don't understand these kids.

[1:36:47] Bob Dobbs: These millennials are very different.

[1:36:49] Bob Dobbs: And that's addressed to the baby boomers and

[1:36:54] Bob Dobbs: Generation X,

[1:36:55] Bob Dobbs: which were their parents.

[1:36:57] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:36:57] Bob Dobbs: another sequence in the middle column is you go from beatniks to hippies to yippies.

[1:37:07] Bob Dobbs: to yuppies to slackers and guppies those were fads those were terms through the

[1:37:17] Bob Dobbs: 30-year period see so there's a journalistic level too of one form of a youthful alienation after another you get me sure and

[1:37:33] Bob Dobbs: then under god the column uh

[1:37:37] Bob Dobbs: Two from the right,

[1:37:38] Bob Dobbs: you have scandals,

[1:37:42] Bob Dobbs: almost conspiracy scandals.

[1:37:44] Bob Dobbs: So you have

[1:37:46] Bob Dobbs: McCarthyism in the 50s,

[1:37:47] Bob Dobbs: 47 to 57,

[1:37:49] Bob Dobbs: crystallized in 1960.

[1:37:51] Bob Dobbs: You've got the Kennedy assassination in the 57 to 67 period,

[1:37:55] Bob Dobbs: crystallized in 65.

[1:37:57] Bob Dobbs: You've got Watergate,

[1:37:59] Bob Dobbs: 67 to 72,

[1:38:02] Bob Dobbs: crystallized in 1970.

[1:38:04] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:38:04] Bob Dobbs: the Battle of the Harvest Moon comes from Dr.

[1:38:06] Bob Dobbs: Beter.

[1:38:07] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:38:08] Bob Dobbs: if you look at the LaRouche Quadrant,

[1:38:10] Bob Dobbs: you'll see the other name,

[1:38:13] Bob Dobbs: second column from the right,

[1:38:15] Bob Dobbs: is May Bressel,

[1:38:17] Bob Dobbs: a pretty amazing investigative journalist.

[1:38:21] Bob Dobbs: And parallel to McLuhan is Zappa.

[1:38:25] Bob Dobbs: Parallel to Thompson is Jiddu Krishnamurti.

[1:38:28] Bob Dobbs: He was the world savior in the

[1:38:30] Bob Dobbs: 20s. You ever heard of him?

[1:38:33] Cameron McEwen: Sure,

[1:38:33] Cameron McEwen: of course.

[1:38:33] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:38:34] Bob Dobbs: and then

[1:38:36] Bob Dobbs: Kroker is paralleled by Peter Beter,

[1:38:39] Bob Dobbs: Dr.

[1:38:40] Bob Dobbs: Peter Beter,

[1:38:40] Bob Dobbs: who created the idea of the organic robotoid.

[1:38:45] Bob Dobbs: So the Rosenberg of whole societies that Kroker talks about,

[1:38:50] Bob Dobbs: he talks about societies being cloned,

[1:38:52] Bob Dobbs: you have the individual Rosenberg,

[1:38:55] Bob Dobbs: which is the organic robotoid,

[1:38:56] Bob Dobbs: which replaced the double.

[1:39:00] Bob Dobbs: That's pretty obscure.

[1:39:01] Bob Dobbs: And then...

[1:39:03] Bob Dobbs: In the Dobbs quadrant,

[1:39:04] Bob Dobbs: you have Garrett Dean.

[1:39:05] Bob Dobbs: He was my personal mentor in Halifax.

[1:39:09] Bob Dobbs: I add the personal mentor to the trivium and quadrivium.

[1:39:12] Bob Dobbs: I think we talked about that.

[1:39:15] Bob Dobbs: Also,

[1:39:16] Bob Dobbs: underneath the name for

[1:39:19] Bob Dobbs: LaRouche quadrant,

[1:39:19] Bob Dobbs: you've got God is Dead under Mae Brussell.

[1:39:22] Bob Dobbs: So that was a slogan in 1960.

[1:39:25] Bob Dobbs: Then,

[1:39:25] Bob Dobbs: if it feels good,

[1:39:26] Bob Dobbs: do it.

[1:39:27] Bob Dobbs: That's the Malinowski,

[1:39:28] Bob Dobbs: the hedonistic

[1:39:29] Bob Dobbs: 60s. And then you have The Whole World is Watching.

[1:39:32] Bob Dobbs: That was chanted at the

[1:39:35] Bob Dobbs: Chicago Convention in 1968,

[1:39:37] Bob Dobbs: the one with the riots.

[1:39:39] Bob Dobbs: And then disco is indicated by staying alive.

[1:39:44] Bob Dobbs: The

[1:39:46] Bob Dobbs: John whatever he was,

[1:39:49] Bob Dobbs: disco duck guy who played the disco actor.

[1:39:53] Bob Dobbs: John Travolta,

[1:39:54] Bob Dobbs: John Revolta is what McLuhan called him.

[1:39:57] Bob Dobbs: Did you ever see that?

[1:39:59] Bob Dobbs: He talks about the John.

[1:40:00] Bob Dobbs: The John Revoltas of our time.

[1:40:04] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:40:04] Cameron McEwen: I didn't know the

[1:40:06] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan take,

[1:40:09] Cameron McEwen: but it's funny.

[1:40:10] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:40:11] Bob Dobbs: that's an unpublished interview in the late

[1:40:13] Bob Dobbs: 70s.

[1:40:15] Bob Dobbs: It was his last insult,

[1:40:18] Bob Dobbs: his last Postman term.

[1:40:20] Bob Dobbs: John Revolta,

[1:40:22] Bob Dobbs: and staying alive.

[1:40:25] Bob Dobbs: And that's getting into 1980.

[1:40:29] Bob Dobbs: Remember 7980,

[1:40:32] Bob Dobbs: Paul Volcker,

[1:40:34] Bob Dobbs: 20%

[1:40:35] Bob Dobbs: interest rates,

[1:40:36] Bob Dobbs: gold goes way up.

[1:40:37] Bob Dobbs: Remember the economic crisis in 79 and 80,

[1:40:40] Bob Dobbs: 81?

[1:40:41] Cameron McEwen: Very well,

[1:40:41] Cameron McEwen: very well.

[1:40:42] Bob Dobbs: Yeah?

[1:40:42] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:40:43] Cameron McEwen: mortgages at 18%.

[1:40:45] Bob Dobbs: Right,

[1:40:46] Bob Dobbs: so it was tough to stay alive in those conditions.

[1:40:49] Bob Dobbs: And then after that,

[1:40:51] Bob Dobbs: you get into the Dobbs quadrant.

[1:40:52] Bob Dobbs: We've been splayed,

[1:40:54] Bob Dobbs: splattered.

[1:40:55] Bob Dobbs: We're into five different bodies.

[1:40:58] Bob Dobbs: And so the Saturday Night Live skit with...

[1:41:01] Bob Dobbs: Julia Child cooking and she'd go,

[1:41:03] Bob Dobbs: Save the kidney

[1:41:06] Bob Dobbs: So that's what that refers to.

[1:41:09] Bob Dobbs: Humans'

[1:41:10] Bob Dobbs: chemical bodies had been so cut up in the buzzsaw of this evolution in the virtuality that people were trying to save one part of their body.

[1:41:19] Bob Dobbs: That's all they had left.

[1:41:21] Bob Dobbs: One-fifth of themselves.

[1:41:23] Bob Dobbs: So that's what that means,

[1:41:24] Bob Dobbs: save the kidney.

[1:41:25] Bob Dobbs: So he went from God is dead to save the kidney.

[1:41:28] Bob Dobbs: See the evolution there?

[1:41:34] Bob Dobbs: Are you with me?

[1:41:35] Cameron McEwen: I'm with you.

[1:41:37] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.

[1:41:38] Bob Dobbs: So there was this guy who did a report in the

[1:41:41] Bob Dobbs: 90s. I found the book,

[1:41:43] Bob Dobbs: and he did it for some

[1:41:47] Bob Dobbs: Rockefeller institution or something.

[1:41:49] Bob Dobbs: And he came up with these five worlds.

[1:41:50] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:41:50] Bob Dobbs: he had McLuhan first world,

[1:41:52] Bob Dobbs: second world,

[1:41:53] Bob Dobbs: third world,

[1:41:53] Bob Dobbs: fourth world.

[1:41:54] Bob Dobbs: He started talking about 1973.

[1:41:57] Bob Dobbs: First world being advanced capitalism.

[1:42:00] Bob Dobbs: Second world is Russian bureaucracy.

[1:42:02] Bob Dobbs: Third world is...

[1:42:04] Bob Dobbs: undeveloped world or developing world.

[1:42:07] Bob Dobbs: And the fourth world is the electric world that goes around the first three,

[1:42:11] Bob Dobbs: though some people use the fourth world for aboriginal cultures,

[1:42:16] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:42:17] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:42:18] Bob Dobbs: Parallel to that was,

[1:42:22] Bob Dobbs: I have them italicized.

[1:42:24] Bob Dobbs: So at the top of the far right column underneath the dates,

[1:42:28] Bob Dobbs: say 1840,

[1:42:29] Bob Dobbs: 1900,

[1:42:30] Bob Dobbs: you have officia state.

[1:42:33] Bob Dobbs: 1900,

[1:42:33] Bob Dobbs: 1980 is media state.

[1:42:35] Bob Dobbs: 1918 to 1945 is Gaia state,

[1:42:40] Bob Dobbs: Gilson state.

[1:42:41] Bob Dobbs: And what this journalist,

[1:42:43] Bob Dobbs: the book writer was meaning was officia state is the growing bureaucracies in cultures and nations around the world.

[1:42:54] Bob Dobbs: The media state is the McLuhan sense,

[1:42:57] Bob Dobbs: the first world new media anti-environment.

[1:43:00] Bob Dobbs: Then the Thompson is the ecology.

[1:43:03] Bob Dobbs: world of 1970,

[1:43:04] Bob Dobbs: so I took the term Gaia State from the book.

[1:43:12] Cameron McEwen: We talked about this last time,

[1:43:14] Cameron McEwen: I believe.

[1:43:15] Bob Dobbs: I don't remember going into it,

[1:43:16] Bob Dobbs: but okay.

[1:43:18] Bob Dobbs: But

[1:43:18] Bob Dobbs: I have fourth world beside Gaia State.

[1:43:20] Bob Dobbs: That's not McClellan's electric fourth world.

[1:43:22] Bob Dobbs: That's the aboriginal world.

[1:43:24] Bob Dobbs: Because the Thompson Quadrant celebrates ecology and primitive tribes and the Gaia stuff.

[1:43:32] Bob Dobbs: That's the planet becoming art form or archetype in McLuhan terms.

[1:43:39] Bob Dobbs: And then

[1:43:40] Bob Dobbs: Kroker talked about the dispossession of humanity.

[1:43:46] Bob Dobbs: Our genes have left us.

[1:43:47] Bob Dobbs: So that's the Gilson state.

[1:43:49] Bob Dobbs: That's the term that this guy came up with,

[1:43:52] Bob Dobbs: which was identified as third world problems.

[1:43:55] Bob Dobbs: And then corporatia state is not media,

[1:44:01] Bob Dobbs: not officia.

[1:44:02] Bob Dobbs: Not Gaia.

[1:44:03] Bob Dobbs: It is the global theater,

[1:44:07] Bob Dobbs: the Android Meme,

[1:44:09] Bob Dobbs: the super corporation.

[1:44:12] Bob Dobbs: You could even say,

[1:44:13] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:44:13] Bob Dobbs: big tech.

[1:44:14] Bob Dobbs: So corporatia,

[1:44:16] Bob Dobbs: he meant it was first world advanced global technological environmental companies.

[1:44:24] Bob Dobbs: And that was the fifth mentality.

[1:44:27] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[1:44:28] Cameron McEwen: Does that fit with the Anthropomorphic Physical?

[1:44:31] Cameron McEwen: physical?

[1:44:33] Cameron McEwen: I thought the Anthropomorphic Physical was an ambiguous state,

[1:44:44] Cameron McEwen: sort of the question of the Anthropomorphic Physical.

[1:44:48] Cameron McEwen: And here this seems to be a very kind of negative,

[1:44:55] Cameron McEwen: only negative thing.

[1:44:57] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:44:58] Bob Dobbs: it's Thompson in his sequence.

[1:45:01] Bob Dobbs: The fifth mentality is the strange world we were going into that nobody understood.

[1:45:07] Bob Dobbs: So that could be put in the Kroker quadrant,

[1:45:11] Bob Dobbs: Android Meme,

[1:45:13] Bob Dobbs: but I wanted to bring in the political concern of cultures starving,

[1:45:19] Bob Dobbs: dying,

[1:45:20] Bob Dobbs: being wiped out,

[1:45:21] Bob Dobbs: destroyed,

[1:45:21] Bob Dobbs: genocide.

[1:45:22] Bob Dobbs: Kroker emphasizes that kind of view,

[1:45:25] Bob Dobbs: so I put Dissie Estate there.

[1:45:28] Bob Dobbs: You could put Dissie Estate in the Dobbs quadrant.

[1:45:31] Bob Dobbs: the Armageddon apocalyptic scenario by 1990,

[1:45:38] Bob Dobbs: but I used the Thompson...

[1:45:39] Bob Dobbs: So you've got to look up what Thompson meant by fifth mentality.

[1:45:43] Bob Dobbs: It's a metaphysical condition.

[1:45:47] Bob Dobbs: It's sort of like the end of Arthur Clarke's

[1:45:51] Bob Dobbs: Childhood's End.

[1:45:52] Bob Dobbs: You ever read that book?

[1:45:54] Bob Dobbs: No.

[1:45:55] Bob Dobbs: So it's a science fiction book,

[1:45:57] Bob Dobbs: and he has humanity disappearing into a cloud.

[1:46:00] Bob Dobbs: It's actually the end of a

[1:46:03] Bob Dobbs: TV series called Lost.

[1:46:05] Bob Dobbs: Did you watch that?

[1:46:07] Cameron McEwen: No.

[1:46:07] Cameron McEwen: It sounds like the end of...

[1:46:09] Cameron McEwen: 2001.

[1:46:10] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[1:46:11] Bob Dobbs: that's similar.

[1:46:12] Bob Dobbs: An updating of that,

[1:46:14] Bob Dobbs: or

[1:46:14] Bob Dobbs: 2001 was an updating of Childhood's End,

[1:46:17] Bob Dobbs: which was written in the early

[1:46:18] Bob Dobbs: 50s, I think.

[1:46:20] Bob Dobbs: So the fifth mentality is something like that.

[1:46:24] Bob Dobbs: And certainly it's prophetic what I'm saying about the Dobbs Quadrant,

[1:46:28] Bob Dobbs: because Ian shows up to describe that that's what is happening to us.

[1:46:33] Bob Dobbs: But that's another topic.

[1:46:37] Bob Dobbs: big digression to explain that,

[1:46:39] Bob Dobbs: but the weirdness that Ian says is happening to us with the changes in the elements and material frequencies and all that kind of stuff that Ian talks about,

[1:46:50] Bob Dobbs: which has made a new kind of medicine that we are dominating.

[1:46:56] Bob Dobbs: And Emory University in Atlanta has recognized,

[1:46:59] Bob Dobbs: so that's a whole success story that the chart predicted.

[1:47:06] Bob Dobbs: That's

[1:47:06] Bob Dobbs: Lockdown Bob Rule,

[1:47:14] Cameron McEwen: and that's me talking.

[1:47:14] Cameron McEwen: Surely Lockdown Bob Rule is a kind of joke.

[1:47:21] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:47:22] Cameron McEwen: In that this quadrant,

[1:47:25] Cameron McEwen: which isn't actually a quadrant,

[1:47:29] Cameron McEwen: right,

[1:47:29] Cameron McEwen: because it's the fifth position,

[1:47:30] Cameron McEwen: not the fourth position.

[1:47:32] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:47:33] Cameron McEwen: This quadrant is...

[1:47:36] Cameron McEwen: Utterly ambiguous everywhere.

[1:47:38] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:47:40] Cameron McEwen: And you could say the lockdown Bob rule is the absence of lockdown and the absence of rule.

[1:47:49] Bob Dobbs: Exactly.

[1:47:50] Bob Dobbs: Or it can be

[1:47:51] Bob Dobbs: Bob is in jail.

[1:47:56] Cameron McEwen: I like that one.

[1:47:57] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:47:58] Bob Dobbs: Bob got locked out.

[1:47:59] Bob Dobbs: Arrested finally.

[1:48:05] Bob Dobbs: So yeah,

[1:48:05] Bob Dobbs: people go on,

[1:48:06] Bob Dobbs: you megalomaniac,

[1:48:08] Bob Dobbs: you talk about locking down everybody and you're in rule.

[1:48:10] Bob Dobbs: And I said,

[1:48:11] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[1:48:11] Bob Dobbs: but what about the other meeting?

[1:48:13] Bob Dobbs: That shuts them up.

[1:48:15] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:48:15] Cameron McEwen: good.

[1:48:16] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:48:17] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:48:18] Bob Dobbs: I got all possible.

[1:48:20] Bob Dobbs: I think it's from Ulysses.

[1:48:21] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan used to quote it,

[1:48:23] Bob Dobbs: every move is your next.

[1:48:27] Bob Dobbs: So what's interesting,

[1:48:28] Bob Dobbs: then we come back at the bottom right,

[1:48:30] Bob Dobbs: the relationship of the charts,

[1:48:32] Bob Dobbs: which is what we began with.

[1:48:34] Bob Dobbs: the Tiny Note chart popped out of the dobbs formula chart so then also on the far right column you got sensory you know chemical body parts different senses of the chemical body in ratio as

[1:48:52] Bob Dobbs: opposed to other more ethereal things like egyptian atlantean and lemurian so you see i pretty well got uh every damn idea you could have in there

[1:49:06] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:49:06] Cameron McEwen: every damn idea that you have.

[1:49:08] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:49:08] Bob Dobbs: that I was aware of,

[1:49:09] Bob Dobbs: and that's pretty encyclopedic,

[1:49:11] Bob Dobbs: you know.

[1:49:11] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:49:13] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[1:49:14] Bob Dobbs: Thompson,

[1:49:14] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan,

[1:49:15] Bob Dobbs: Kroker,

[1:49:16] Bob Dobbs: and LaRouche are polymaths,

[1:49:17] Bob Dobbs: so I took these polymaths and jumbled them together for the Dobstown holeopathic extraordinaire.

[1:49:25] Bob Dobbs: So I got everything.

[1:49:26] Bob Dobbs: And we go back up to the top.

[1:49:27] Bob Dobbs: You'll see the sequence of Sacrificial TV,

[1:49:32] Bob Dobbs: Crash TV,

[1:49:33] Bob Dobbs: Four from the...

[1:49:34] Bob Dobbs: Top four categories,

[1:49:37] Bob Dobbs: disciplinary TV,

[1:49:38] Bob Dobbs: surveillance TV,

[1:49:39] Bob Dobbs: extramental TV,

[1:49:39] Bob Dobbs: those are very interesting categories by Kroker.

[1:49:45] Bob Dobbs: And he describes each one in detail.

[1:49:47] Cameron McEwen: I don't see where you are.

[1:49:49] Bob Dobbs: At the very top under Rhyee,

[1:49:50] Bob Dobbs: Eloy,

[1:49:51] Bob Dobbs: Tulafti,

[1:49:51] Bob Dobbs: and Bob.

[1:49:52] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:49:54] Bob Dobbs: Four lines down.

[1:49:56] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[1:49:56] Cameron McEwen: I see.

[1:49:57] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:49:58] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[1:49:59] Cameron McEwen: Crash,

[1:49:59] Cameron McEwen: discipline.

[1:50:00] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[1:50:01] Cameron McEwen: I get it.

[1:50:02] Cameron McEwen: But I kind of think we should go on to the question of all four stages,

[1:50:10] Cameron McEwen: all four plus stages of apprehension.

[1:50:13] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:50:15] Cameron McEwen: That kind of names the chart.

[1:50:17] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:50:18] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[1:50:19] Bob Dobbs: Exactly.

[1:50:20] Cameron McEwen: So then,

[1:50:23] Cameron McEwen: to my way of thinking,

[1:50:26] Cameron McEwen: what we need to do is consider the meaning of that.

[1:50:32] Cameron McEwen: Because I think you have one meaning and I have another.

[1:50:36] Cameron McEwen: And it would be good to define those.

[1:50:40] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:50:40] Bob Dobbs: so stages of apprehension is a phrase I got from McLuhan from Interior landscape,

[1:50:45] Bob Dobbs: his early

[1:50:46] Bob Dobbs: 50s essays on Joyce.

[1:50:48] Bob Dobbs: So I take his stages,

[1:50:50] Bob Dobbs: and he once said in the

[1:50:52] Bob Dobbs: 60s that students think in levels or stages,

[1:50:56] Bob Dobbs: and that's actually a

[1:50:57] Bob Dobbs: 19th century literate way of thinking,

[1:51:00] Bob Dobbs: sort of like a sequence or fragmented levels.

[1:51:04] Bob Dobbs: doesn't get to the simultaneous vision McLuhan had in the sphere,

[1:51:10] Bob Dobbs: the spherical situation of acoustic space and then the interpenetrating tactility.

[1:51:16] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:51:18] Bob Dobbs: I'm not saying that we are limited to stages of apprehension.

[1:51:22] Bob Dobbs: There's a simultaneity going on in the chart.

[1:51:26] Cameron McEwen: Sure.

[1:51:26] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:51:27] Cameron McEwen: when McLuhan uses the phrase stages of apprehension,

[1:51:33] Cameron McEwen: the overriding Thank you.

[1:51:35] Cameron McEwen: meaning is nonlinear.

[1:51:39] Bob Dobbs: Yep.

[1:51:40] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[1:51:40] Cameron McEwen: It's the stages of apprehension overturn linearity.

[1:51:46] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[1:51:47] Bob Dobbs: And he used Finney's way to criticize those popular philosophers who made stages,

[1:51:54] Bob Dobbs: who would go through five stages,

[1:51:56] Bob Dobbs: like

[1:51:56] Bob Dobbs: Thompson does that.

[1:51:58] Bob Dobbs: He makes a linear inventory of phases based in time.

[1:52:03] Bob Dobbs: Like I have in my chart,

[1:52:05] Bob Dobbs: but that's not the whole chart.

[1:52:06] Bob Dobbs: That's a subplot of the chart or the literate angle on the chart.

[1:52:12] Cameron McEwen: Although you do love updating and correlation of perceptions with new technologies.

[1:52:24] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:52:24] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[1:52:25] Cameron McEwen: So there definitely is an affection in your thinking for...

[1:52:34] Bob Dobbs: uh linearity well i'm putting on my audience i'm putting on my western audience they're used to that and especially if i make a book out of it or a pamphlet that's enhancing the linearity it's a total put on i'm not limited to that well

[1:52:50] Bob Dobbs: you have a linearity that bites its own ass yes yes i cancel it or i do the the uh mobius strip on it um yeah you know

[1:53:01] Bob Dobbs: staring at fitting its weight for 50 years,

[1:53:04] Bob Dobbs: I'm not so linear,

[1:53:05] Bob Dobbs: you know?

[1:53:06] Cameron McEwen: Correct,

[1:53:07] Cameron McEwen: correct.

[1:53:08] Cameron McEwen: So let me,

[1:53:09] Cameron McEwen: what I did was,

[1:53:11] Cameron McEwen: lately

[1:53:12] Cameron McEwen: I've been very involved trying to figure out what McLuhan was doing between sort of 1948,

[1:53:23] Cameron McEwen: 1952.

[1:53:24] Cameron McEwen: I think that was a very important period for him.

[1:53:26] Cameron McEwen: And what I found was a couple quotations.

[1:53:30] Cameron McEwen: that,

[1:53:32] Cameron McEwen: to my mind,

[1:53:34] Cameron McEwen: describe the Tiny Note chart and then describe the question that comes out of it.

[1:53:41] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:53:43] Cameron McEwen: I'll just read these two quotations.

[1:53:45] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[1:53:46] Cameron McEwen: The first one's from his review of 11 books on T.S.

[1:53:50] Cameron McEwen: Eliot,

[1:53:52] Cameron McEwen: which appeared in

[1:53:53] Cameron McEwen: Renascence in 1950.

[1:53:56] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:53:57] Bob Dobbs: I know it.

[1:53:57] Bob Dobbs: I have that.

[1:53:59] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:53:59] Cameron McEwen: of course.

[1:54:00] Cameron McEwen: So he says that

[1:54:02] Cameron McEwen: LaFord's type of landscape effected that complete break from the Cartesian tyranny of continuous statement as the mode of unifying discourse.

[1:54:14] Cameron McEwen: Dynamic,

[1:54:16] Cameron McEwen: analogical apposition of widely diverse thoughts,

[1:54:20] Cameron McEwen: feelings,

[1:54:21] Cameron McEwen: and experience as facts of existence quite independent of logical...

[1:54:29] Cameron McEwen: coherence or conceptual unity,

[1:54:33] Cameron McEwen: such was the perception which led to the end of Descartes and also of

[1:54:38] Cameron McEwen: Lockean associationism in modern poetry.

[1:54:42] Cameron McEwen: And to me,

[1:54:42] Cameron McEwen: that seems like a very good statement of what the Tiny Note chart's doing.

[1:54:47] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:54:49] Bob Dobbs: I should type that up and stick it on any presentation online of the chart.

[1:54:57] Cameron McEwen: All right.

[1:54:58] Cameron McEwen: It's an excellent statement.

[1:55:00] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[1:55:00] Cameron McEwen: So I can certainly send that to you.

[1:55:02] Cameron McEwen: It's no problem.

[1:55:05] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:55:05] Bob Dobbs: let me give you an idea.

[1:55:07] Bob Dobbs: This is the third Copernican Revolution pattern recognition that he talked about.

[1:55:14] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:55:14] Bob Dobbs: the three Copernican Revolutions?

[1:55:15] Bob Dobbs: You ever read that part?

[1:55:18] Cameron McEwen: I don't know that I have,

[1:55:20] Cameron McEwen: although the phrase kind of rings a vague bell.

[1:55:24] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:55:24] Bob Dobbs: I think in Global Village.

[1:55:26] Bob Dobbs: There's a tetrad on the Copernican revolutions,

[1:55:29] Bob Dobbs: but what he said in an obscure Etc.

[1:55:32] Bob Dobbs: magazine article in the 70s sometime,

[1:55:36] Bob Dobbs: he said you had Copernicus,

[1:55:38] Bob Dobbs: that was number one,

[1:55:40] Bob Dobbs: that was a change from the Ptolemaic.

[1:55:44] Bob Dobbs: universe.

[1:55:45] Bob Dobbs: The second Copernican Revolution was Kant.

[1:55:48] Bob Dobbs: And Kant threw,

[1:55:50] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[1:55:50] Bob Dobbs: the first Copernican Revolution threw man's image out to the edges of the universe.

[1:55:55] Bob Dobbs: The second Copernican Revolution threw us inside.

[1:55:59] Bob Dobbs: That's what he called Kant did.

[1:56:01] Bob Dobbs: So it was the romantic retrieval of acoustic space,

[1:56:05] Bob Dobbs: perhaps,

[1:56:06] Bob Dobbs: the interior landscape.

[1:56:08] Bob Dobbs: So that was the Kantian.

[1:56:10] Bob Dobbs: And then the third Copernican Revolution.

[1:56:12] Bob Dobbs: is pattern recognition,

[1:56:14] Bob Dobbs: and I see that as a vortices phenomenon.

[1:56:17] Bob Dobbs: Pound,

[1:56:18] Bob Dobbs: Eliot,

[1:56:19] Bob Dobbs: Joyce,

[1:56:21] Bob Dobbs: and Lewis,

[1:56:23] Bob Dobbs: but especially

[1:56:24] Bob Dobbs: Joyce and Pound with Cantos and Ulysses and Fittings Wake.

[1:56:28] Bob Dobbs: That's the pattern recognition format,

[1:56:31] Bob Dobbs: the Third Copernican Revolution.

[1:56:33] Bob Dobbs: Then McLuhan was the Fourth Copernican.

[1:56:35] Bob Dobbs: He never named it,

[1:56:36] Bob Dobbs: but it's implied that media ecology.

[1:56:40] Bob Dobbs: Global management of anti-environment is the fourth Copernican revolution.

[1:56:46] Cameron McEwen: Okay.

[1:56:47] Cameron McEwen: I agree with all of that.

[1:56:49] Cameron McEwen: And

[1:56:50] Cameron McEwen: I would just add that from the third to the fourth,

[1:56:56] Cameron McEwen: that raises the kinds of questions that I've been raising about your chart.

[1:57:00] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:57:01] Cameron McEwen: Because as soon as you talk,

[1:57:03] Cameron McEwen: as soon as somebody emphasizes pattern recognition,

[1:57:08] Cameron McEwen: There.

[1:57:09] Cameron McEwen: implicitly or explicitly raising the question of,

[1:57:14] Cameron McEwen: okay,

[1:57:14] Cameron McEwen: what is the pattern of the pattern recognition?

[1:57:17] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:57:18] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[1:57:19] Cameron McEwen: You're right.

[1:57:20] Cameron McEwen: So either that goes on forever or there's an answer to it.

[1:57:25] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:57:26] Cameron McEwen: And in McLuhan,

[1:57:28] Cameron McEwen: I say there is an answer to it.

[1:57:32] Bob Dobbs: How would you say that answer?

[1:57:35] Cameron McEwen: That answer is the science of...

[1:57:38] Cameron McEwen: the interior landscape.

[1:57:41] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:57:42] Bob Dobbs: is that pattern recognition?

[1:57:45] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:57:46] Cameron McEwen: it's the pattern of pattern recognition.

[1:57:49] Cameron McEwen: So all human experience is pattern recognition.

[1:57:55] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[1:57:55] Cameron McEwen: Humans never get away from pattern recognition.

[1:57:58] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:57:58] Cameron McEwen: So the science of pattern recognition is

[1:58:06] Cameron McEwen: the pattern recognition of pattern recognition.

[1:58:10] Cameron McEwen: But what happens with McLuhan is that he says it would be Königsbergian to think that we have the pattern.

[1:58:22] Cameron McEwen: Rather,

[1:58:23] Cameron McEwen: what happens is we come into what he calls open perspective,

[1:58:31] Cameron McEwen: where

[1:58:34] Cameron McEwen: I can probably read you some interesting quotes on this from McLuhan.

[1:58:39] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:58:39] Cameron McEwen: do that.

[1:58:41] Cameron McEwen: Okay,

[1:58:41] Cameron McEwen: well,

[1:58:41] Cameron McEwen: I'll do that in a second.

[1:58:43] Cameron McEwen: But let me read the second quotation that comes from his Dos Passos technique versus sensibility essay in 1951.

[1:58:58] Bob Dobbs: Same time as the Renascence article.

[1:59:01] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:59:02] Cameron McEwen: well,

[1:59:02] Cameron McEwen: there's a...

[1:59:03] Cameron McEwen: In 1951,

[1:59:05] Cameron McEwen: there was kind of an explosion of articles.

[1:59:09] Cameron McEwen: He published maybe five or six articles that year,

[1:59:14] Cameron McEwen: most of them literary essays,

[1:59:18] Cameron McEwen: but all of them raising questions of time,

[1:59:23] Cameron McEwen: of pattern recognition,

[1:59:30] Cameron McEwen: of education,

[1:59:31] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:59:33] Cameron McEwen: It's a very interesting period,

[1:59:35] Cameron McEwen: this

[1:59:35] Cameron McEwen: 48 to 52.

[1:59:37] Bob Dobbs: Which he's corresponding with Pound in that period.

[1:59:41] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely,

[1:59:42] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.

[1:59:43] Cameron McEwen: Especially early in that period.

[1:59:46] Cameron McEwen: It kind of drops off a little bit.

[1:59:47] Cameron McEwen: But yeah,

[1:59:49] Cameron McEwen: Pound is definitely a very important figure for

[1:59:55] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan. And there's twice as many letters between the two of them.

[2:00:03] Cameron McEwen: as have been published in the letters.

[2:00:06] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[2:00:06] Cameron McEwen: So the complete correspondence between

[2:00:12] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan and Pound,

[2:00:13] Cameron McEwen: I hope,

[2:00:13] Cameron McEwen: is going to be published at some point,

[2:00:16] Cameron McEwen: and it's very interesting for sort of the evolution of

[2:00:21] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan thought.

[2:00:23] Cameron McEwen: Yep.

[2:00:24] Cameron McEwen: Anyway,

[2:00:24] Cameron McEwen: here's a quotation from the Dos Passos,

[2:00:27] Cameron McEwen: say,

[2:00:27] Cameron McEwen: 1951,

[2:00:30] Cameron McEwen: and to me it's a kind of comment.

[2:00:33] Cameron McEwen: on what I just read from

[2:00:35] Cameron McEwen: T.S. Eliot.

[2:00:37] Cameron McEwen: So he says,

[2:00:38] Cameron McEwen: it's hard to see how anyone who set himself to rendering the diverse existence of multitudes of people could dispense with the technique of discontinuous landscapes.

[2:00:52] Cameron McEwen: In fact,

[2:00:52] Cameron McEwen: until the technique of discontinuous juxtaposition was brought into play,

[2:00:58] Cameron McEwen: it was not even possible to entertain such an ambition.

[2:01:03] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:01:03] Cameron McEwen: wow.

[2:01:05] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:01:05] Cameron McEwen: so I take it that that's exactly what you are miming or what you are presenting in gymnastics,

[2:01:17] Cameron McEwen: you could say,

[2:01:18] Cameron McEwen: in your chart.

[2:01:19] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:01:19] Bob Dobbs: exactly.

[2:01:21] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[2:01:21] Bob Dobbs: it is.

[2:01:21] Cameron McEwen: So the question that comes out of that is,

[2:01:26] Cameron McEwen: is it possible to specify these things so that...

[2:01:34] Cameron McEwen: When we have problems,

[2:01:36] Cameron McEwen: let's say,

[2:01:36] Cameron McEwen: of war and peace,

[2:01:38] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[2:01:39] Cameron McEwen: let alone problems in education,

[2:01:43] Cameron McEwen: politics,

[2:01:44] Cameron McEwen: business,

[2:01:45] Cameron McEwen: etc.,

[2:01:46] Cameron McEwen: but especially the questions of war and peace,

[2:01:50] Cameron McEwen: is it possible for us to apply these insights to these other problems,

[2:01:59] Cameron McEwen: yes or no?

[2:02:01] Cameron McEwen: That's the name problem of war and peace.

[2:02:04] Cameron McEwen: Rumpelstiltskin,

[2:02:05] Cameron McEwen: by the way,

[2:02:07] Cameron McEwen: is it possible to apply these things or not?

[2:02:10] Cameron McEwen: And I think McLuhan answer is yes,

[2:02:13] Cameron McEwen: it is possible,

[2:02:15] Cameron McEwen: but only when we realize how science actually works.

[2:02:20] Cameron McEwen: And science doesn't work by coming to conclusions that are valid for all time.

[2:02:28] Cameron McEwen: Rather,

[2:02:28] Cameron McEwen: what happens is science identifies what might be called and

[2:02:34] Cameron McEwen: Essential foci,

[2:02:35] Cameron McEwen: right?

[2:02:37] Cameron McEwen: And chemistry was...

[2:02:39] Bob Dobbs: Foci,

[2:02:39] Bob Dobbs: F-O-C-I.

[2:02:41] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:02:41] Cameron McEwen: exactly.

[2:02:42] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:02:42] Cameron McEwen: I'm not sure how it would be pronounced.

[2:02:46] Bob Dobbs: I've heard it's pronounced as foci,

[2:02:48] Bob Dobbs: soft C.

[2:02:50] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:02:50] Cameron McEwen: maybe.

[2:02:51] Cameron McEwen: It probably comes from Latin,

[2:02:53] Cameron McEwen: or it would be a hard one.

[2:02:55] Cameron McEwen: But leave that aside.

[2:02:58] Cameron McEwen: Science needs to have some kind of focus.

[2:03:03] Cameron McEwen: But that focus is what might be called a soft focus,

[2:03:09] Cameron McEwen: because although it enables science in a new way,

[2:03:15] Cameron McEwen: and it does so on the basis of things that are taken to be more or less fixed,

[2:03:22] Cameron McEwen: like the chemical elements,

[2:03:25] Cameron McEwen: the science that results from that is open-ended,

[2:03:29] Cameron McEwen: and there's nothing fixed about that science.

[2:03:33] Cameron McEwen: It's dynamic.

[2:03:36] Cameron McEwen: So what I see coming out of the chart where you talk about all four plus stages of apprehension,

[2:03:49] Cameron McEwen: I think

[2:03:50] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan could be seen in that phrase as saying that

[2:04:05] Cameron McEwen: We have the possibility of an open-ended science,

[2:04:11] Cameron McEwen: which either produces weapons of mass destruction that destroy us or produces pattern recognition also of the interior landscape,

[2:04:25] Cameron McEwen: in which case we can save ourselves.

[2:04:29] Bob Dobbs: Exactly.

[2:04:29] Bob Dobbs: That's well said.

[2:04:35] Bob Dobbs: That's what I intend to do in Lockdown Bob Rule.

[2:04:42] Bob Dobbs: You're welcome to join me.

[2:04:43] Bob Dobbs: We could have a little

[2:04:45] Bob Dobbs: Cameron

[2:04:46] Bob Dobbs: Rule,

[2:04:47] Bob Dobbs: Lockdown Cameron Rule.

[2:04:50] Cameron McEwen: I'll read two other,

[2:04:55] Cameron McEwen: or yeah,

[2:04:56] Cameron McEwen: one other quotation from 1951.

[2:05:01] Bob Dobbs: Before you do that,

[2:05:02] Bob Dobbs: what comes to my mind is...

[2:05:06] Bob Dobbs: When I spoke at the

[2:05:08] Bob Dobbs: Fordham conference in 1998,

[2:05:11] Bob Dobbs: I said if people could recognize the breakthrough of McLuhan,

[2:05:16] Bob Dobbs: then he'd be hired to run the United Nations with his media ecology,

[2:05:22] Bob Dobbs: computerized media ecology.

[2:05:25] Bob Dobbs: But nobody listened to him.

[2:05:28] Bob Dobbs: Too much liberation in many modalities going on,

[2:05:33] Bob Dobbs: new openings.

[2:05:35] Bob Dobbs: for human experience in the global theater and so he was lost in the din and that's uh what we're replaying here if we've got a unique understanding that the administrators of the world could use though

[2:05:52] Bob Dobbs: i think they they picked up on it remember i was explaining they they discovered the death tread in their own researches in the

[2:06:00] Bob Dobbs: 80s but um if they uh

[2:06:04] Bob Dobbs: or at least an elite of the management,

[2:06:07] Bob Dobbs: the NSA say,

[2:06:10] Bob Dobbs: they heard us,

[2:06:11] Bob Dobbs: we might be able to communicate something that would bring a bit of sanity.

[2:06:15] Bob Dobbs: But how are we going to get heard?

[2:06:17] Bob Dobbs: Everybody else,

[2:06:18] Bob Dobbs: as Wayne

[2:06:20] Bob Dobbs: Constantino used to say,

[2:06:21] Bob Dobbs: everybody's a consultant to everybody else.

[2:06:25] Bob Dobbs: Everybody's a consultant.

[2:06:26] Bob Dobbs: We're trying to be a consultant.

[2:06:28] Bob Dobbs: So that's why we're Innis hopeless Cayce.

[2:06:33] Bob Dobbs: Nobody can get the authoritative position anymore.

[2:06:40] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[2:06:41] Cameron McEwen: So how a new authority emerges that is not authoritarian is the great question.

[2:06:54] Cameron McEwen: But it's not only a question in the humanities and in politics.

[2:07:00] Cameron McEwen: It's also...

[2:07:01] Cameron McEwen: The great question that once was addressed to science,

[2:07:04] Cameron McEwen: because that's exactly what happened.

[2:07:08] Cameron McEwen: Before 1800 or so,

[2:07:12] Cameron McEwen: the alchemists were all authorities,

[2:07:16] Cameron McEwen: and they were rival authorities with their own disciples and their own labs and their own equipment and all that sort of stuff,

[2:07:23] Cameron McEwen: right?

[2:07:24] Cameron McEwen: What happened was humans developed a kind of authority.

[2:07:30] Cameron McEwen: that wasn't authoritarian,

[2:07:32] Cameron McEwen: that was open-ended,

[2:07:33] Cameron McEwen: and that allowed discovery to be made,

[2:07:37] Cameron McEwen: right?

[2:07:37] Cameron McEwen: So

[2:07:38] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan always talking about how Whitehead said that the

[2:07:43] Cameron McEwen: 19th century was the invention of discovery.

[2:07:46] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[2:07:47] Bob Dobbs: the technique of discovery.

[2:07:49] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[2:07:50] Cameron McEwen: And so then the question of the 20th century,

[2:07:58] Cameron McEwen: according to McLuhan,

[2:08:00] Cameron McEwen: was what

[2:08:02] Cameron McEwen: Bertrand Russell identified as the technique of suspended judgment.

[2:08:09] Cameron McEwen: That is exactly right.

[2:08:10] Cameron McEwen: That is exactly right.

[2:08:12] Cameron McEwen: And so the question for the humanities is how,

[2:08:15] Cameron McEwen: out of the invention of discovery,

[2:08:19] Cameron McEwen: how we are going to be able to earn suspended judgment.

[2:08:26] Cameron McEwen: And the great question there is,

[2:08:29] Cameron McEwen: How are we going to internalize the gap,

[2:08:32] Cameron McEwen: internalize the,

[2:08:37] Cameron McEwen: at one point called the technique of flight,

[2:08:42] Cameron McEwen: that at once opens humans to truth,

[2:08:49] Cameron McEwen: but to a truth that's open-ended.

[2:08:53] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:08:53] Bob Dobbs: he says in 53,

[2:08:54] Bob Dobbs: in the first explorations,

[2:08:56] Bob Dobbs: You have your discussions about the allowance of self-correction.

[2:09:02] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:09:02] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.

[2:09:04] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.

[2:09:06] Cameron McEwen: Which goes a long way to explain why he was a Catholic,

[2:09:09] Cameron McEwen: right?

[2:09:10] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:09:11] Cameron McEwen: The whole idea of confession and of self-abnegation,

[2:09:19] Cameron McEwen: et cetera,

[2:09:19] Cameron McEwen: was very much a part of his,

[2:09:21] Cameron McEwen: yeah,

[2:09:22] Cameron McEwen: very much a part of his thinking.

[2:09:24] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:09:25] Cameron McEwen: A part of...

[2:09:26] Bob Dobbs: A friend of mine discovered,

[2:09:27] Bob Dobbs: I think I told you that the meaning of repentance originally,

[2:09:30] Bob Dobbs: or way back there,

[2:09:30] Bob Dobbs: was retracing.

[2:09:32] Bob Dobbs: That would be the stages of apprehension.

[2:09:35] Bob Dobbs: And then understanding that that becomes a simultaneity situation.

[2:09:42] Bob Dobbs: So,

[2:09:43] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan was always retracing,

[2:09:44] Bob Dobbs: and he spells that out in his Joyce essays.

[2:09:47] Bob Dobbs: The artist retraces the stages of apprehension.

[2:09:51] Bob Dobbs: And so,

[2:09:53] Bob Dobbs: there is a value to the linear.

[2:09:55] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[2:09:56] Bob Dobbs: in his chart of the brain hemispheres he had in the 70s that's in Laws of Media,

[2:10:01] Bob Dobbs: you have significant pattern recognition or something under right hemisphere,

[2:10:08] Bob Dobbs: and then a similar kind of thing under the left hemisphere.

[2:10:12] Bob Dobbs: Do you remember?

[2:10:13] Bob Dobbs: Maybe significant linear progression or something?

[2:10:17] Bob Dobbs: He has the two types of pattern recognition,

[2:10:20] Bob Dobbs: left and right hemisphere.

[2:10:23] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:10:23] Cameron McEwen: that's,

[2:10:24] Cameron McEwen: I don't...

[2:10:24] Cameron McEwen: remember exactly that well do you have laws of media right there beside you do i have what you have laws of media right beside you there no it's another room yeah okay i wouldn't be able to put my hand on it but um the

[2:10:42] Cameron McEwen: the chart um is the chart that he had when he was lecturing with in uh in us college in 78 you were there i think yes um

[2:10:53] Cameron McEwen: and there's a video online,

[2:10:55] Cameron McEwen: and he's sitting below that chart.

[2:10:58] Cameron McEwen: I think it irritated Havelock.

[2:11:01] Cameron McEwen: And the chart's also repeatedly in

[2:11:07] Cameron McEwen: Global Village.

[2:11:08] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[2:11:10] Cameron McEwen: So

[2:11:11] Cameron McEwen: I'm familiar with it in general terms,

[2:11:13] Cameron McEwen: and I'm also familiar with the idea that linearity isn't all bad.

[2:11:20] Cameron McEwen: It's only bad when it's exclusive.

[2:11:22] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[2:11:23] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[2:11:24] Cameron McEwen: And so linearity and simultaneity need to be thought together,

[2:11:29] Cameron McEwen: and that's what he calls inclusive thinking,

[2:11:33] Cameron McEwen: inclusive perception.

[2:11:35] Cameron McEwen: And that raises...

[2:11:39] Cameron McEwen: The problem of what I was just saying a few minutes ago,

[2:11:42] Cameron McEwen: that in order to think two different things together,

[2:11:48] Cameron McEwen: you need a gap.

[2:11:50] Cameron McEwen: And humans are reluctant to introduce a gap into their identity.

[2:11:59] Bob Dobbs: Even though they have it in their physiology,

[2:12:01] Bob Dobbs: in their brain.

[2:12:04] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:12:04] Cameron McEwen: they have it in every way.

[2:12:07] Cameron McEwen: The gap is there.

[2:12:09] Cameron McEwen: every conceivable sense.

[2:12:11] Cameron McEwen: So it's not admitting the gap is a self contradiction.

[2:12:19] Cameron McEwen: Humans become humans when they begin to speak.

[2:12:22] Cameron McEwen: The speaking is based on the gap.

[2:12:27] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[2:12:29] Bob Dobbs: Tactility,

[2:12:30] Bob Dobbs: the common sense.

[2:12:32] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[2:12:33] Cameron McEwen: There is no such thing as a human without gaps.

[2:12:39] Cameron McEwen: And yet,

[2:12:41] Cameron McEwen: after all of this time,

[2:12:43] Cameron McEwen: nobody knows if it's millions of years or hundreds of thousands of years or what the length of time is that humans have been around,

[2:12:51] Cameron McEwen: but they have not,

[2:12:54] Cameron McEwen: and I would say increasingly have not,

[2:12:57] Cameron McEwen: been able to acclimatize themselves to who they are,

[2:13:02] Cameron McEwen: the gapped animal.

[2:13:04] Cameron McEwen: And it's only if the gap...

[2:13:07] Cameron McEwen: animal can come to terms with being that,

[2:13:10] Cameron McEwen: that we're going to be able to have peace,

[2:13:12] Cameron McEwen: because peace is a condition of the gap.

[2:13:17] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[2:13:17] Bob Dobbs: And we have made the gap an externalized environment.

[2:13:20] Bob Dobbs: It's right there offering its ecology.

[2:13:23] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[2:13:24] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:13:24] Cameron McEwen: but it's offering its ecology,

[2:13:27] Cameron McEwen: but also offering its danger,

[2:13:29] Cameron McEwen: right?

[2:13:30] Cameron McEwen: Because...

[2:13:30] Cameron McEwen: What was the last word?

[2:13:31] Bob Dobbs: Offering its...

[2:13:33] Cameron McEwen: Danger.

[2:13:33] Bob Dobbs: Its danger.

[2:13:34] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[2:13:35] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:13:36] Cameron McEwen: Because the digital world is inherently gapped.

[2:13:40] Cameron McEwen: The digit itself is gapped.

[2:13:42] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[2:13:43] Cameron McEwen: But so far,

[2:13:46] Cameron McEwen: all we've done is invent incredible weapons of mass destruction on its basis that are threatening us.

[2:13:58] Cameron McEwen: So unless we understand how the gap also...

[2:14:04] Cameron McEwen: can provide a science of the internal world,

[2:14:08] Cameron McEwen: of the anti-environment,

[2:14:11] Cameron McEwen: then we're going to be increasingly at peril.

[2:14:15] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:14:16] Bob Dobbs: now,

[2:14:17] Bob Dobbs: I went and got Laws of Media,

[2:14:19] Bob Dobbs: page 68,

[2:14:21] Bob Dobbs: and so you have the left hemisphere and the right hemisphere,

[2:14:24] Bob Dobbs: and

[2:14:25] Bob Dobbs: 1, 2,

[2:14:25] Bob Dobbs: 3,

[2:14:29] Bob Dobbs: 4,

[2:14:31] Bob Dobbs: 5,

[2:14:32] Bob Dobbs: 6,

[2:14:32] Bob Dobbs: 7,

[2:14:32] Bob Dobbs: 8,

[2:14:32] Bob Dobbs: 9,

[2:14:32] Bob Dobbs: 10,

[2:14:32] Bob Dobbs: 11,

[2:14:32] Bob Dobbs: 11 pairs.

[2:14:33] Bob Dobbs: So speech slash...

[2:14:34] Bob Dobbs: verbal,

[2:14:34] Bob Dobbs: spatial slash musical.

[2:14:36] Bob Dobbs: Logical.

[2:14:38] Cameron McEwen: You like lists of 11?

[2:14:40] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[2:14:41] Bob Dobbs: I'm glad you noticed that.

[2:14:42] Bob Dobbs: I thought of that.

[2:14:43] Bob Dobbs: I noticed that.

[2:14:44] Bob Dobbs: But that's the easy pairing.

[2:14:48] Bob Dobbs: But then the bottom four are something else.

[2:14:52] Bob Dobbs: So the first 11 are logical,

[2:14:54] Bob Dobbs: mathematical versus holistic.

[2:14:56] Bob Dobbs: Linear,

[2:14:57] Bob Dobbs: detailed versus artistic symbolic.

[2:14:59] Bob Dobbs: Sequential versus simultaneous.

[2:15:01] Bob Dobbs: Controlled versus emotional.

[2:15:03] Bob Dobbs: So you've got 11 of these cliche dialectics,

[2:15:06] Bob Dobbs: right?

[2:15:07] Bob Dobbs: Active and receptive.

[2:15:08] Bob Dobbs: Then analytic versus synesthetic Gestalt.

[2:15:12] Bob Dobbs: Then it becomes reading,

[2:15:14] Bob Dobbs: writing,

[2:15:15] Bob Dobbs: naming versus facial recognition.

[2:15:19] Bob Dobbs: Or sequential ordering,

[2:15:22] Bob Dobbs: simultaneous comprehension.

[2:15:24] Bob Dobbs: That's what I was trying to say.

[2:15:26] Bob Dobbs: Sequential ordering versus simultaneous comprehension.

[2:15:29] Bob Dobbs: And then perception of significant order.

[2:15:33] Bob Dobbs: versus perception of abstract patterns.

[2:15:37] Bob Dobbs: Sometimes McLuhan would say visual space was abstract,

[2:15:41] Bob Dobbs: but there was two kinds of abstract.

[2:15:46] Bob Dobbs: And then the final one is complex motor sequences,

[2:15:49] Bob Dobbs: that's athletic stuff,

[2:15:52] Bob Dobbs: versus recognition of complex figures.

[2:15:54] Bob Dobbs: So those three and four,

[2:15:58] Bob Dobbs: reading,

[2:15:59] Bob Dobbs: writing,

[2:15:59] Bob Dobbs: naming versus facial recognition,

[2:16:02] Bob Dobbs: that's a borderline case.

[2:16:03] Bob Dobbs: But I like these,

[2:16:04] Bob Dobbs: sequential ordering versus simultaneous comprehension,

[2:16:07] Bob Dobbs: two kinds of orders,

[2:16:09] Bob Dobbs: two perceptions,

[2:16:10] Bob Dobbs: significant order versus abstract patterns,

[2:16:13] Bob Dobbs: and then complex motor sequences,

[2:16:14] Bob Dobbs: recognition of complex figures.

[2:16:17] Cameron McEwen: Humans are always on both sides.

[2:16:20] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:16:22] Bob Dobbs: and he spells it out.

[2:16:22] Bob Dobbs: The chart,

[2:16:23] Bob Dobbs: this is a chart by

[2:16:24] Bob Dobbs: R.H. Trotter.

[2:16:25] Bob Dobbs: That's the name at the bottom.

[2:16:27] Bob Dobbs: But he recognized the wording is very good,

[2:16:32] Bob Dobbs: very useful.

[2:16:34] Bob Dobbs: to summing up his work.

[2:16:38] Bob Dobbs: So the...

[2:16:40] Bob Dobbs: Perception of significant order versus perception of abstract patterns.

[2:16:46] Bob Dobbs: You've got to do some thinking to figure out the difference.

[2:16:50] Bob Dobbs: You've got to do some perceiving to figure out the difference.

[2:16:53] Bob Dobbs: And then complex motor sequences versus recognition of complex figures.

[2:16:58] Bob Dobbs: So

[2:17:00] Bob Dobbs: I'm engaging that on the chart.

[2:17:03] Bob Dobbs: I've got those two types intermingling in the chart.

[2:17:10] Bob Dobbs: the recognition of,

[2:17:15] Bob Dobbs: you see,

[2:17:15] Bob Dobbs: sometimes

[2:17:17] Bob Dobbs: I'll say Thompson got the answer more than McLuhan.

[2:17:21] Bob Dobbs: Then I'll know McLuhan got the answer in terms of understanding something.

[2:17:25] Bob Dobbs: You need to understand Thompson.

[2:17:27] Bob Dobbs: You need to understand McLuhan,

[2:17:29] Bob Dobbs: where that leads to in your own behavior and perception.

[2:17:32] Bob Dobbs: That's hard to determine.

[2:17:35] Bob Dobbs: And LaRouche had a breakthrough.

[2:17:40] Bob Dobbs: Kroker.

[2:17:41] Bob Dobbs: So

[2:17:42] Bob Dobbs: I'm always juggling these things.

[2:17:43] Bob Dobbs: If I was asked to solve these problems that you were mentioning,

[2:17:48] Bob Dobbs: I'd go in juggling these four approaches plus my extra thing with Ion.

[2:17:55] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[2:17:57] Bob Dobbs: if you can solve physical stresses and diseases,

[2:18:02] Bob Dobbs: that is a breakthrough.

[2:18:04] Bob Dobbs: And we've done that in medicine and we're gradually being recognized in the world.

[2:18:09] Bob Dobbs: And then also if you have a free energy device or endless electricity,

[2:18:13] Bob Dobbs: that's a big breakthrough from discarnate society to frictionless-based society.

[2:18:18] Bob Dobbs: So

[2:18:21] Bob Dobbs: I am quite confident that we have some of the steps toward the solution you're saying we've got to recognize.

[2:18:33] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:18:33] Cameron McEwen: good.

[2:18:35] Bob Dobbs: Good.

[2:18:36] Cameron McEwen: I have a different idea about how we get there.

[2:18:42] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[2:18:42] Cameron McEwen: no,

[2:18:42] Cameron McEwen: let's hear it.

[2:18:42] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:18:43] Cameron McEwen: that's what I always talk about,

[2:18:44] Cameron McEwen: that the science of the interior landscape can only take off when there is significant pattern recognition.

[2:18:58] Cameron McEwen: A little bit like the chemistry,

[2:19:03] Cameron McEwen: the recognition of the chemical structure set off the...

[2:19:09] Cameron McEwen: scientific breakthroughs,

[2:19:12] Cameron McEwen: inventions,

[2:19:14] Cameron McEwen: complete change of the economy,

[2:19:17] Cameron McEwen: the politics,

[2:19:19] Cameron McEwen: everything of the

[2:19:21] Cameron McEwen: 19th century,

[2:19:22] Cameron McEwen: all of that depended on the pattern recognition of what's going on in the material universe.

[2:19:30] Cameron McEwen: That was the chemical element.

[2:19:32] Cameron McEwen: And so

[2:19:33] Cameron McEwen: I say what McLuhan did was recognize the elements.

[2:19:38] Cameron McEwen: of the interior landscape,

[2:19:41] Cameron McEwen: called them media,

[2:19:43] Cameron McEwen: and that how that can have a positive effect is analogous to how the chemical elements gradually had and still have more and more and more influence

[2:20:03] Cameron McEwen: in the physical world,

[2:20:06] Cameron McEwen: in the external world.

[2:20:07] Cameron McEwen: interior landscape.

[2:20:09] Cameron McEwen: So McLuhan didn't say,

[2:20:11] Cameron McEwen: here's the answer and hand us a piece of paper that had the answer on it.

[2:20:16] Cameron McEwen: What he tried to do was ignite a way of investigating that could have as great effect on the world as the recognition of the chemical elements

[2:20:31] Cameron McEwen: has had.

[2:20:33] Bob Dobbs: Great.

[2:20:33] Bob Dobbs: So you...

[2:20:36] Bob Dobbs: Interior landscape,

[2:20:40] Bob Dobbs: you got the external landscape and the interior.

[2:20:44] Bob Dobbs: You mean something beyond how he uses those terms in describing the stages of romantic poetry in interior landscape.

[2:20:55] Bob Dobbs: You mean something else.

[2:20:57] Bob Dobbs: So you're saying that the outer world is chemistry,

[2:21:01] Bob Dobbs: the effects of media are more interior.

[2:21:07] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[2:21:08] Cameron McEwen: Although each world has definite effects on the other.

[2:21:13] Cameron McEwen: It's not as if there are two independent spheres,

[2:21:17] Cameron McEwen: but the two spheres have different laws.

[2:21:21] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[2:21:22] Bob Dobbs: So

[2:21:22] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan was Postman,

[2:21:26] Bob Dobbs: Postman for psychological problems.

[2:21:29] Bob Dobbs: He also had dealt with sociological issues.

[2:21:34] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[2:21:34] Cameron McEwen: So in common with Richards and Epson and Levis,

[2:21:40] Cameron McEwen: he took the linguistic research to be not psychological.

[2:21:54] Cameron McEwen: Everything is subject to linguistic analysis.

[2:21:58] Cameron McEwen: So

[2:21:59] Cameron McEwen: Levis already published a book,

[2:22:01] Cameron McEwen: I think it was in 1932.

[2:22:04] Cameron McEwen: anti-environment.

[2:22:06] Bob Dobbs: Culture anti-environment,

[2:22:07] Bob Dobbs: 1933 is the date I have for that.

[2:22:12] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:22:12] Cameron McEwen: Denys Thompson.

[2:22:13] Cameron McEwen: So the tools that were being developed in the English school were self-consciously tools for everything human,

[2:22:28] Cameron McEwen: not just poetry,

[2:22:30] Cameron McEwen: not just anything,

[2:22:31] Cameron McEwen: but for the whole...

[2:22:33] Cameron McEwen: what McLuhan called the interior landscape.

[2:22:35] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[2:22:36] Cameron McEwen: So when you say,

[2:22:39] Cameron McEwen: you said that the interior landscape,

[2:22:42] Cameron McEwen: the book,

[2:22:45] Cameron McEwen: the interior landscape was concerned with developments in Romantic poetry.

[2:22:50] Cameron McEwen: But just think what's in there,

[2:22:51] Cameron McEwen: right?

[2:22:52] Cameron McEwen: Especially how it ends.

[2:22:53] Cameron McEwen: It ends with the southern quality and ancient coral and modern America and stuff.

[2:22:59] Cameron McEwen: And that's far beyond.

[2:23:01] Cameron McEwen: just a consideration of poetry.

[2:23:03] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[2:23:04] Cameron McEwen: So for McLuhan,

[2:23:06] Cameron McEwen: the consideration of poetry is a way of isolating patterns which can then be applied to the economic world or the political world or to the world of war and peace.

[2:23:21] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[2:23:23] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:23:23] Bob Dobbs: it's quite an achievement that he did or created.

[2:23:27] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.

[2:23:29] Cameron McEwen: And so what I tried to do is I...

[2:23:31] Cameron McEwen: I try to sort of distill

[2:23:33] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan. Yeah.

[2:23:35] Cameron McEwen: Working with Clinton,

[2:23:36] Cameron McEwen: I'm going to develop some diagrams to show how this works.

[2:23:41] Cameron McEwen: But the diagram that I've verbally talked about with you in our conversations is simply a spectrum of figure and ground relations.

[2:23:53] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:23:54] Cameron McEwen: And that,

[2:23:54] Cameron McEwen: that spectrum tends from all figure at one end to all ground at the other.

[2:24:01] Cameron McEwen: And over the spectrum,

[2:24:03] Cameron McEwen: you go from all figure,

[2:24:10] Cameron McEwen: its neighbor configuration,

[2:24:12] Cameron McEwen: if you will,

[2:24:13] Cameron McEwen: is

[2:24:14] Cameron McEwen: 99% figure and 1%

[2:24:16] Cameron McEwen: ground.

[2:24:18] Cameron McEwen: And the next one is 98%

[2:24:22] Cameron McEwen: figure and

[2:24:23] Cameron McEwen: 2% ground.

[2:24:25] Cameron McEwen: And so as you go along the spectrum,

[2:24:28] Cameron McEwen: at the other end,

[2:24:29] Cameron McEwen: you have

[2:24:30] Cameron McEwen: 2%.

[2:24:31] Cameron McEwen: figure and 98%

[2:24:32] Cameron McEwen: ground,

[2:24:33] Cameron McEwen: and then 1%

[2:24:34] Cameron McEwen: figure and 99%

[2:24:36] Cameron McEwen: ground,

[2:24:37] Cameron McEwen: and then all ground.

[2:24:39] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[2:24:39] Cameron McEwen: And the inclusive consciousness for McLuhan is at 50-50,

[2:24:48] Cameron McEwen: 50%

[2:24:49] Cameron McEwen: figure and 50%

[2:24:50] Cameron McEwen: ground.

[2:24:51] Cameron McEwen: And the exclusive consciousness is everything outside of inclusive.

[2:25:01] Cameron McEwen: on both sides of it,

[2:25:03] Cameron McEwen: on the spectrum.

[2:25:04] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[2:25:05] Cameron McEwen: So what McLuhan suggests is that when anything is experienced,

[2:25:11] Cameron McEwen: when anything is expressed in the interior landscape,

[2:25:17] Cameron McEwen: it needs to be situated on this spectrum.

[2:25:23] Cameron McEwen: And when it's situated on this spectrum,

[2:25:27] Cameron McEwen: its laws,

[2:25:28] Cameron McEwen: the laws of that particular...

[2:25:31] Cameron McEwen: configuration will be,

[2:25:34] Cameron McEwen: if not elucidated,

[2:25:37] Cameron McEwen: at least elucifiable,

[2:25:41] Cameron McEwen: if that's the right word.

[2:25:43] Bob Dobbs: Elucifiable?

[2:25:45] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:25:46] Cameron McEwen: In other words,

[2:25:47] Cameron McEwen: subject to elucidation.

[2:25:49] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:25:50] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[2:25:50] Bob Dobbs: Elucifiable.

[2:25:51] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[2:25:51] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:25:52] Cameron McEwen: I don't know what the word is.

[2:25:53] Cameron McEwen: It probably isn't a word.

[2:25:56] Cameron McEwen: But just,

[2:25:58] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[2:25:58] Cameron McEwen: for example,

[2:26:00] Cameron McEwen: when And...

[2:26:01] Cameron McEwen: chemistry first took off around 1790.

[2:26:07] Cameron McEwen: If you had asked

[2:26:10] Cameron McEwen: Lavoisier or Priestley,

[2:26:16] Cameron McEwen: what effect will this have on the world?

[2:26:18] Cameron McEwen: They would have had no idea,

[2:26:21] Cameron McEwen: right?

[2:26:22] Cameron McEwen: If you had said to them,

[2:26:26] Cameron McEwen: what relationship do you see between And.

[2:26:30] Cameron McEwen: these chemical structures and genetics.

[2:26:35] Cameron McEwen: They would have had zero or less than zero,

[2:26:39] Cameron McEwen: minus zero to infinity idea about DNA.

[2:26:42] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:26:44] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[2:26:44] Cameron McEwen: And yet,

[2:26:45] Cameron McEwen: DNA is chemistry.

[2:26:46] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:26:48] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[2:26:48] Cameron McEwen: So

[2:26:49] Cameron McEwen: I take it that what McLuhan is saying is,

[2:26:52] Cameron McEwen: look,

[2:26:53] Cameron McEwen: these problems with war and peace and business and relating cultures in time and space and all this sort of stuff,

[2:27:01] Cameron McEwen: these are extremely complicated questions.

[2:27:05] Cameron McEwen: But in order to tackle them,

[2:27:07] Cameron McEwen: you have to start off with a pattern recognition that achieves common focus in the same way chemistry did.

[2:27:16] Cameron McEwen: And then you begin to probe and investigate and experiment,

[2:27:23] Cameron McEwen: try to find out something about your ignorance.

[2:27:28] Cameron McEwen: And eventually,

[2:27:31] Cameron McEwen: through time,

[2:27:32] Cameron McEwen: through hard work,

[2:27:33] Cameron McEwen: sits Fleish.

[2:27:35] Cameron McEwen: is the word in German,

[2:27:37] Cameron McEwen: you will find answers.

[2:27:42] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[2:27:42] Bob Dobbs: and the way you described your chart,

[2:27:45] Bob Dobbs: I think that's what I'm trying to show in mine,

[2:27:48] Bob Dobbs: a spectrum.

[2:27:51] Bob Dobbs: All ground is the flat line.

[2:27:54] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:27:55] Cameron McEwen: so is all figure.

[2:27:56] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:27:57] Cameron McEwen: Right,

[2:27:57] Cameron McEwen: and McLuhan always talked about how the extremes flip into each other.

[2:28:01] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[2:28:03] Cameron McEwen: And so all figure and ground is the flatline,

[2:28:06] Cameron McEwen: for sure.

[2:28:06] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:28:07] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.

[2:28:08] Bob Dobbs: And then the Mobius strip.

[2:28:11] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[2:28:12] Bob Dobbs: So the Mobius strip is a well-known figure now.

[2:28:18] Bob Dobbs: A lot of people know it.

[2:28:20] Bob Dobbs: They might even incorporate it in their understanding of their psychology or of cycles.

[2:28:27] Bob Dobbs: But we're doing it with technologies now.

[2:28:32] Bob Dobbs: They're Mobius stripping.

[2:28:34] Bob Dobbs: Or we've hit a flat line with the screenal economy.

[2:28:37] Bob Dobbs: That's Kroker term,

[2:28:38] Bob Dobbs: the screenal economy.

[2:28:42] Bob Dobbs: Someone said that quote by McLuhan in the Malinowski where the human actually is being forced to be awake because they can't stay in their particular culture or

[2:28:56] Bob Dobbs: another culture because there's too many conflicting.

[2:28:59] Bob Dobbs: But then someone said,

[2:29:00] Bob Dobbs: well,

[2:29:00] Bob Dobbs: we flipped into...

[2:29:02] Bob Dobbs: a new sleep because it all became one medium,

[2:29:08] Bob Dobbs: not a conflicting media like the

[2:29:11] Bob Dobbs: 60s. It's all the screen.

[2:29:13] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[2:29:14] Cameron McEwen: But you see,

[2:29:16] Cameron McEwen: as soon as somebody does this,

[2:29:18] Cameron McEwen: and it reminds me of the quotation that you read from the end of

[2:29:24] Cameron McEwen: Frank

[2:29:26] Cameron McEwen: Xenochrony book.

[2:29:27] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:29:28] Bob Dobbs: Users the content.

[2:29:29] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[2:29:30] Cameron McEwen: As soon as somebody says you have this complication and then you have this one,

[2:29:38] Cameron McEwen: you recognize that this is analogous to a complex chemical protein that part of it is built out of a figure and ground configuration and part of it is built

[2:29:57] Cameron McEwen: out of...

[2:29:58] Cameron McEwen: the refusal of figure and ground,

[2:30:00] Cameron McEwen: so either all figure or all ground.

[2:30:03] Cameron McEwen: And that's the kind of complex molecule that we're dealing with here.

[2:30:08] Cameron McEwen: And we know that it's flawed because all molecules of that kind ultimately end up at war.

[2:30:21] Cameron McEwen: And they end up at war because they insist on different pathways.

[2:30:28] Cameron McEwen: to the one,

[2:30:30] Cameron McEwen: right?

[2:30:30] Cameron McEwen: Whereas what's needed are the complex molecules that are inherently inclusive,

[2:30:39] Bob Dobbs: as

[2:30:40] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan would say.

[2:30:43] Cameron McEwen: But what lies the problem that lies behind all this sort of stuff is that humans want to have a point of view.

[2:30:54] Cameron McEwen: They want to have an identity.

[2:30:57] Cameron McEwen: They don't

[2:30:57] Cameron McEwen: want to say that

[2:31:00] Cameron McEwen: I myself,

[2:31:00] Cameron McEwen: my identity and my views are subject to laws that exceed me.

[2:31:08] Cameron McEwen: But if we don't,

[2:31:09] Cameron McEwen: then we're screwed.

[2:31:12] Bob Dobbs: Unless the school that says empower the individual and that they realize they make their own world.

[2:31:22] Bob Dobbs: I think this is Ion's bias.

[2:31:27] Bob Dobbs: Aion doesn't like the idea that you're limited by these anti-environment and thinks you can overcome them with recognizing your own powers of making.

[2:31:38] Bob Dobbs: And maybe that's a dialectic,

[2:31:40] Bob Dobbs: so...

[2:31:41] Bob Dobbs: You shift from side to side,

[2:31:43] Bob Dobbs: but I'm just stating the counter to what you're saying.

[2:31:47] Bob Dobbs: The recognition.

[2:31:48] Bob Dobbs: I actually,

[2:31:49] Bob Dobbs: someone criticized me a few years ago.

[2:31:51] Bob Dobbs: They said,

[2:31:51] Bob Dobbs: well,

[2:31:51] Bob Dobbs: Bob's always talking about anti-environment as if we're controlled by something.

[2:31:56] Bob Dobbs: And they were taking the Ion side.

[2:31:59] Bob Dobbs: Look,

[2:31:59] Bob Dobbs: I can make my own reality.

[2:32:02] Bob Dobbs: I can make it.

[2:32:04] Bob Dobbs: But I would say you can't do that without recognizing the complementary externalities.

[2:32:13] Bob Dobbs: You've got to include both.

[2:32:15] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[2:32:15] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.

[2:32:16] Bob Dobbs: And then that's a difficult act.

[2:32:19] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:32:20] Cameron McEwen: yes,

[2:32:21] Cameron McEwen: it is difficult,

[2:32:21] Cameron McEwen: but it's the condition of survival.

[2:32:26] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:32:26] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[2:32:26] Cameron McEwen: So McLuhan constantly talked about his work as a survival strategy.

[2:32:32] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:32:33] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[2:32:33] Cameron McEwen: He says in his interview with Nina

[2:32:35] Cameron McEwen: Sutton, he says,

[2:32:36] Cameron McEwen: well,

[2:32:36] Cameron McEwen: if you want to

[2:32:37] Cameron McEwen: if you want to survive,

[2:32:39] Cameron McEwen: then you have to listen to me.

[2:32:41] Cameron McEwen: If you don't want to survive,

[2:32:43] Bob Dobbs: yes.

[2:32:45] Cameron McEwen: And

[2:32:45] Cameron McEwen: I think he felt that that was the case.

[2:32:48] Cameron McEwen: But he also knew from talking to his children that talk wouldn't do it.

[2:32:55] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[2:32:57] Bob Dobbs: and that's where you have to anti-environment.

[2:32:59] Bob Dobbs: And that's where economics went that way.

[2:33:02] Bob Dobbs: They give Nobel Prizes to the latest mathematics.

[2:33:07] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[2:33:07] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:33:09] Cameron McEwen: One of my roommates,

[2:33:10] Cameron McEwen: by the way,

[2:33:11] Cameron McEwen: you mentioned playing hockey.

[2:33:15] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[2:33:16] Cameron McEwen: I played hockey to the end of college.

[2:33:19] Bob Dobbs: That's good.

[2:33:21] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:33:25] Cameron McEwen: there's a lot of players in college that go immediately to the

[2:33:31] Cameron McEwen: NHL, no question about that.

[2:33:32] Bob Dobbs: No,

[2:33:33] Bob Dobbs: you had to be good to play in Canadian college hockey.

[2:33:37] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:33:37] Cameron McEwen: well,

[2:33:37] Cameron McEwen: this was American college hockey,

[2:33:39] Cameron McEwen: but we played against Canadian teams and sometimes beat the Canadian teams.

[2:33:45] Cameron McEwen: And we played against the

[2:33:47] Cameron McEwen: U.S. national team.

[2:33:49] Cameron McEwen: And

[2:33:51] Cameron McEwen: I've also played against the Canadian national team.

[2:33:54] Cameron McEwen: So these are good.

[2:33:56] Bob Dobbs: What position did you play?

[2:33:59] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:34:00] Cameron McEwen: I was a natural Postman,

[2:34:01] Cameron McEwen: but usually on the teams I played,

[2:34:05] Cameron McEwen: there was a deficiency.

[2:34:07] Cameron McEwen: in defensemen.

[2:34:08] Cameron McEwen: And so I would get taken from being a center to being a defenseman.

[2:34:12] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[2:34:13] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:34:13] Bob Dobbs: I went from center back and forth to right wing,

[2:34:17] Bob Dobbs: depending who ran the team.

[2:34:20] Bob Dobbs: But I never went back to defense,

[2:34:21] Bob Dobbs: though.

[2:34:23] Bob Dobbs: But I was a good center.

[2:34:27] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:34:30] Cameron McEwen: Okay,

[2:34:30] Cameron McEwen: so I was just going to say.

[2:34:31] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:34:31] Bob Dobbs: why did we bring up the hockey?

[2:34:33] Bob Dobbs: Your point was?

[2:34:35] Cameron McEwen: My point,

[2:34:35] Cameron McEwen: well,

[2:34:36] Cameron McEwen: you had just brought up

[2:34:37] Cameron McEwen: Nobel Prize winners,

[2:34:39] Cameron McEwen: but one of my roommates and one of my teammates in hockey won a Nobel Prize about two years after we graduated.

[2:34:48] Bob Dobbs: Wow.

[2:34:49] Cameron McEwen: It was unbelievable.

[2:34:51] Bob Dobbs: What was it?

[2:34:51] Cameron McEwen: That's from Toronto.

[2:34:53] Cameron McEwen: Sorry?

[2:34:54] Bob Dobbs: What was it for?

[2:34:56] Cameron McEwen: For a new model in economics.

[2:34:59] Bob Dobbs: Ah,

[2:35:01] Bob Dobbs: did you become wealthy with that?

[2:35:04] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:35:04] Cameron McEwen: I don't know.

[2:35:05] Cameron McEwen: he became wealthy,

[2:35:06] Cameron McEwen: but he became wealthy enough.

[2:35:08] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:35:09] Bob Dobbs: And where did he end up?

[2:35:13] Cameron McEwen: I think he's back on the East Coast now,

[2:35:15] Cameron McEwen: but for a long time he was a dean at Stanford and is very involved in international affairs as a consultant.

[2:35:27] Bob Dobbs: As a tetrad manager.

[2:35:30] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:35:31] Cameron McEwen: basically.

[2:35:32] Bob Dobbs: And what college was this?

[2:35:36] Bob Dobbs: Princeton or what?

[2:35:39] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:35:40] Bob Dobbs: Princeton.

[2:35:40] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[2:35:40] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[2:35:40] Cameron McEwen: That's interesting.

[2:35:41] Cameron McEwen: Our coach at Princeton was Johnny Wilson.

[2:35:43] Cameron McEwen: I don't know if you remember Johnny Wilson was on some very good

[2:35:49] Cameron McEwen: Detroit Red Wings teams in the

[2:35:55] Cameron McEwen: 50s and 60s.

[2:35:58] Cameron McEwen: Then he got sort of traded around as a great guy.

[2:36:03] Bob Dobbs: great guy like johnny a lot right just a few years ago yeah the uh i played in halifax darmouth area and two players came out of there and made the nhl one of them was hilliard graves he played for vancouver does that name mean anything to you or you didn't follow hockey right

[2:36:22] Cameron McEwen: i followed hockey enough but i didn't i don't remember him yeah no he didn't become a big star,

[2:36:27] Bob Dobbs: but he played for many years.

[2:36:31] Cameron McEwen: Sidney Crosby is...

[2:36:33] Cameron McEwen: from the Halifax area.

[2:36:34] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:36:35] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[2:36:36] Bob Dobbs: I didn't know about him,

[2:36:38] Bob Dobbs: and I was visiting Dartmouth.

[2:36:40] Bob Dobbs: in 2008 and I was visiting an old friend and we were driving out of Colby Village where he lived and there was a sign there and it said this is the home of Sidney

[2:36:52] Bob Dobbs: Crosby and

[2:36:54] Bob Dobbs: I had not been following sports for decades.

[2:36:57] Bob Dobbs: I didn't know Canadian media anymore being in New York City and that's New York City in the canyon of stone walls acoustic space of Manhattan you know that's

[2:37:10] Bob Dobbs: That's quite removed from mainland America and Canada.

[2:37:15] Bob Dobbs: So lost in the canyons of

[2:37:17] Bob Dobbs: Manhattan, I didn't know anything about what was happening.

[2:37:21] Bob Dobbs: So I said,

[2:37:21] Bob Dobbs: who's Sidney Crosby?

[2:37:23] Bob Dobbs: And if you don't know who he is,

[2:37:26] Bob Dobbs: no.

[2:37:26] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:37:26] Cameron McEwen: the guy drove off the road.

[2:37:29] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:37:29] Bob Dobbs: he almost did.

[2:37:31] Bob Dobbs: As a Canadian,

[2:37:31] Bob Dobbs: he was shocked.

[2:37:32] Bob Dobbs: And so I went home,

[2:37:34] Bob Dobbs: and I was staying at a friend's.

[2:37:35] Bob Dobbs: So

[2:37:36] Bob Dobbs: I looked him up on

[2:37:37] Bob Dobbs: YouTube.

[2:37:39] Bob Dobbs: And

[2:37:40] Bob Dobbs: I just quickly crashed that night,

[2:37:43] Bob Dobbs: crashed knowledge about him.

[2:37:45] Bob Dobbs: And I noticed he played like me.

[2:37:48] Bob Dobbs: He had incredible luck.

[2:37:49] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[2:37:50] Bob Dobbs: he'd dive in one direction,

[2:37:51] Bob Dobbs: fire the puck behind him,

[2:37:53] Bob Dobbs: and it would go in the net.

[2:37:54] Bob Dobbs: Have you ever noticed that about him?

[2:37:56] Bob Dobbs: That's what I was seeing.

[2:37:58] Bob Dobbs: Maybe they were just featuring his lucky goals,

[2:38:00] Bob Dobbs: but that's the way I was,

[2:38:02] Bob Dobbs: very ridiculously lucky.

[2:38:05] Bob Dobbs: And then a couple...

[2:38:08] Bob Dobbs: Months later,

[2:38:09] Bob Dobbs: that was April.

[2:38:10] Cameron McEwen: The saying is,

[2:38:12] Cameron McEwen: if you don't shoot,

[2:38:13] Cameron McEwen: you won't score.

[2:38:14] Bob Dobbs: Right,

[2:38:14] Bob Dobbs: right.

[2:38:15] Bob Dobbs: So the guy just shot,

[2:38:17] Bob Dobbs: no matter what.

[2:38:20] Bob Dobbs: So a couple months later,

[2:38:21] Bob Dobbs: he was in the Stanley Cup,

[2:38:23] Bob Dobbs: and he won.

[2:38:24] Bob Dobbs: And I saw a picture of him.

[2:38:25] Bob Dobbs: This was back,

[2:38:25] Bob Dobbs: I was in New York then,

[2:38:27] Bob Dobbs: 2008.

[2:38:32] Bob Dobbs: And I looked at the picture,

[2:38:34] Bob Dobbs: and I took it,

[2:38:36] Bob Dobbs: and I walked over to Carolyn and said,

[2:38:37] Bob Dobbs: who's that look like?

[2:38:39] Bob Dobbs: And she looks,

[2:38:40] Bob Dobbs: she says,

[2:38:40] Bob Dobbs: it looks like you.

[2:38:42] Bob Dobbs: And

[2:38:43] Bob Dobbs: I said,

[2:38:43] Bob Dobbs: that's right.

[2:38:44] Bob Dobbs: This is Sidney Cosby,

[2:38:45] Bob Dobbs: the greatest player in history is me.

[2:38:49] Bob Dobbs: So

[2:38:50] Bob Dobbs: I made up this theory that

[2:38:52] Bob Dobbs: I played in the Halifax region for

[2:38:56] Bob Dobbs: 15 years in the 60s.

[2:39:00] Cameron McEwen: What was the highest level you played?

[2:39:03] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[2:39:03] Bob Dobbs: I was older,

[2:39:04] Bob Dobbs: so I wasn't in school or in college or anything.

[2:39:07] Bob Dobbs: So it was just makeup hockey among working company people.

[2:39:17] Bob Dobbs: But it was really well organized,

[2:39:19] Bob Dobbs: and they had trophies and everything.

[2:39:21] Bob Dobbs: So

[2:39:22] Bob Dobbs: I played in that level,

[2:39:24] Bob Dobbs: older guys.

[2:39:25] Bob Dobbs: And

[2:39:28] Bob Dobbs: I also played ball hockey and won a trophy for that,

[2:39:32] Bob Dobbs: for most valuable player.

[2:39:34] Bob Dobbs: But.

[2:39:36] Bob Dobbs: My theory,

[2:39:37] Bob Dobbs: instant theory,

[2:39:37] Bob Dobbs: was that

[2:39:40] Bob Dobbs: I plowed the ground for Sidney Crosby.

[2:39:43] Bob Dobbs: I opened up the vibes.

[2:39:45] Bob Dobbs: And

[2:39:46] Bob Dobbs: Ion talks about the soul has unrealized creation.

[2:39:49] Bob Dobbs: So I never made it to the NHL.

[2:39:52] Bob Dobbs: But I laid a track that Sidney played in the same rinks,

[2:39:56] Bob Dobbs: same area,

[2:39:58] Bob Dobbs: and he completed my unrealized creations.

[2:40:03] Bob Dobbs: So that was my explanation with Ion's help.

[2:40:07] Bob Dobbs: of the similarity.

[2:40:08] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:40:10] Cameron McEwen: that's a good example of what I wanted to say about the two paths that come out of the Tiny Note chart.

[2:40:19] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[2:40:20] Cameron McEwen: One is lockdown Bob Rule,

[2:40:24] Cameron McEwen: Bob being the greatest hockey player that ever existed,

[2:40:28] Cameron McEwen: along with other stuff.

[2:40:29] Cameron McEwen: And my way out of it is a passage I'm going to read here from 1960.

[2:40:37] Cameron McEwen: The Humanities and the Electronic Age is the name of the essay,

[2:40:41] Cameron McEwen: and it was in the bulletin of the

[2:40:45] Cameron McEwen: Humanities Association of Canada.

[2:40:49] Cameron McEwen: And

[2:40:51] Cameron McEwen: I take the point of view with McLuhan that he made a series of lectures and a series of essays for Canada.

[2:41:02] Cameron McEwen: Prospect is one of them in 1962.

[2:41:07] Cameron McEwen: The first time he mentioned Global Village was in Winnipeg in 1959.

[2:41:13] Cameron McEwen: The first time he mentioned the medium is the message was in Vancouver in 1958.

[2:41:20] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[2:41:20] Cameron McEwen: And then the

[2:41:22] Cameron McEwen: Borderline lecture in Toronto.

[2:41:26] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:41:26] Cameron McEwen: the Borderline,

[2:41:27] Bob Dobbs: that's in 67,

[2:41:28] Bob Dobbs: right?

[2:41:30] Cameron McEwen: I think so.

[2:41:31] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:41:31] Bob Dobbs: the university lectures,

[2:41:33] Bob Dobbs: Massey lectures or something.

[2:41:35] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:41:36] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:41:36] Cameron McEwen: exactly.

[2:41:38] Cameron McEwen: It was two lectures,

[2:41:40] Cameron McEwen: and that was either the first or the second of the two.

[2:41:44] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:41:45] Cameron McEwen: But at any rate,

[2:41:46] Cameron McEwen: I take it that he made major statements to and for

[2:41:51] Cameron McEwen: Canada.

[2:41:53] Cameron McEwen: And this one from 1961 reads as follows.

[2:41:59] Cameron McEwen: He says,

[2:41:59] Cameron McEwen: Bertrand Russell pointed out the great achievement of the 20th century is a technique of suspended judgment.

[2:42:06] Cameron McEwen: as you correctly recalled a few minutes ago.

[2:42:09] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:42:09] Cameron McEwen: That is,

[2:42:10] Cameron McEwen: it made the discovery of the process of insight itself,

[2:42:15] Cameron McEwen: the technique of avoiding the automatic closure or involuntary fixing of attitudes that so easily results from any given cultural situation,

[2:42:28] Cameron McEwen: the discovery of the technique of open field perception.

[2:42:33] Cameron McEwen: I'll go on with this.

[2:42:34] Cameron McEwen: quotation in a minute.

[2:42:35] Cameron McEwen: Here I'll just note that in regards to the spectrum we're talking about,

[2:42:41] Cameron McEwen: the idea of automatic closure,

[2:42:45] Cameron McEwen: involuntary fixing is the need to go to the ends of the spectrum in order to specify your position.

[2:42:58] Cameron McEwen: In another of our conversations,

[2:43:01] Cameron McEwen: not this morning,

[2:43:03] Cameron McEwen: but in the future,

[2:43:04] Cameron McEwen: I'll talk about the laws of hauntology,

[2:43:08] Cameron McEwen: and one of the laws of hauntology is that you cannot have two.

[2:43:12] Cameron McEwen: You cannot have two what?

[2:43:18] Cameron McEwen: You cannot have two in an ontological sense.

[2:43:22] Cameron McEwen: Some people talk about,

[2:43:24] Cameron McEwen: oh,

[2:43:25] Cameron McEwen: that's an ontological dualism.

[2:43:28] Cameron McEwen: There is no such thing,

[2:43:29] Cameron McEwen: and there cannot be,

[2:43:30] Cameron McEwen: because if there are two,

[2:43:33] Cameron McEwen: that are equally real and equally most real,

[2:43:37] Cameron McEwen: there must be a third that mediates them in the ontological quadrant,

[2:43:46] Cameron McEwen: if you will.

[2:43:47] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[2:43:47] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[2:43:49] Cameron McEwen: Because in the ontological quadrant,

[2:43:53] Cameron McEwen: anything that's there,

[2:43:55] Cameron McEwen: number one,

[2:43:55] Cameron McEwen: is there forever,

[2:43:57] Cameron McEwen: and number two has supreme power.

[2:44:00] Cameron McEwen: So if there were two...

[2:44:02] Cameron McEwen: two and only two over eternity,

[2:44:08] Cameron McEwen: and with their supreme power,

[2:44:11] Cameron McEwen: one of them would have to overpower the other unless there were some third that mediated them and allowed them to coexist.

[2:44:22] Cameron McEwen: So hauntology can be one,

[2:44:26] Cameron McEwen: where there is only one basic reality,

[2:44:30] Cameron McEwen: or it can be three or four or five.

[2:44:32] Cameron McEwen: five or six,

[2:44:34] Cameron McEwen: up to who knows what number,

[2:44:37] Cameron McEwen: but it cannot be two.

[2:44:39] Cameron McEwen: So when people put forward a position,

[2:44:44] Cameron McEwen: nearly always it's dualistic,

[2:44:46] Cameron McEwen: but precisely because it's dualistic,

[2:44:49] Cameron McEwen: it has to be monistic at the end of the day.

[2:44:52] Cameron McEwen: And that is what could be called the mathematical specification of the Gutenberg Galaxy.

[2:45:00] Cameron McEwen: is that the Gutenberg Galaxy is always dualistic in a way that must be monistic.

[2:45:07] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[2:45:07] Bob Dobbs: So

[2:45:08] Bob Dobbs: I think of Hendieties.

[2:45:10] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan used that term.

[2:45:12] Bob Dobbs: One by means of two.

[2:45:15] Bob Dobbs: I think of

[2:45:17] Bob Dobbs: Wyndham Lewis believed in two-ness,

[2:45:19] Bob Dobbs: not one-ness.

[2:45:20] Bob Dobbs: And that's excerpted in

[2:45:23] Bob Dobbs: Cliché to archetype.

[2:45:25] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[2:45:25] Bob Dobbs: Blast,

[2:45:25] Bob Dobbs: 1914.

[2:45:28] Bob Dobbs: It's a manifesto.

[2:45:29] Bob Dobbs: You remember that part?

[2:45:30] Bob Dobbs: He believes in two-ness,

[2:45:31] Bob Dobbs: not one-ness.

[2:45:33] Cameron McEwen: Yes,

[2:45:33] Cameron McEwen: but,

[2:45:34] Cameron McEwen: okay.

[2:45:35] Bob Dobbs: And he said you have to switch in mid-career and become completely opposite of what you were thinking.

[2:45:41] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:45:42] Bob Dobbs: And McLuhan kind of did that for those that knew him in the 30s and

[2:45:46] Bob Dobbs: 40s.

[2:45:47] Bob Dobbs: And, you know,

[2:45:48] Bob Dobbs: Clinton's reading the stuff no one has had access to.

[2:45:54] Bob Dobbs: And he's a crazy moralist.

[2:45:57] Bob Dobbs: Nietzschean moralist kind of guy in the 40s,

[2:46:00] Bob Dobbs: and then he flips into this impersonal non-entity doing media ecology in the

[2:46:04] Bob Dobbs: 50s.

[2:46:05] Bob Dobbs: He changed his career.

[2:46:08] Bob Dobbs: He switched.

[2:46:11] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:46:11] Cameron McEwen: well,

[2:46:11] Cameron McEwen: I think that's,

[2:46:13] Cameron McEwen: again,

[2:46:14] Cameron McEwen: something that we can talk about in the future because I think what's going on there is something very complicated.

[2:46:22] Cameron McEwen: He never had some sort of simplistic black-white...

[2:46:28] Cameron McEwen: view of things.

[2:46:30] Bob Dobbs: No,

[2:46:30] Bob Dobbs: that's right.

[2:46:32] Cameron McEwen: Even,

[2:46:33] Cameron McEwen: for example,

[2:46:33] Cameron McEwen: his Dagwood article from,

[2:46:35] Cameron McEwen: I think it was 1942,

[2:46:41] Cameron McEwen: is on the surface,

[2:46:43] Cameron McEwen: it seems to be very black,

[2:46:45] Cameron McEwen: white and very decided and things.

[2:46:48] Cameron McEwen: But if you give it a close reading,

[2:46:50] Cameron McEwen: it's quite complicated.

[2:46:53] Cameron McEwen: And so

[2:46:54] Cameron McEwen: I think McLuhan is always complicated,

[2:46:57] Cameron McEwen: but he wasn't very aware.

[2:47:00] Cameron McEwen: of his complications.

[2:47:01] Cameron McEwen: He didn't know how to articulate his complications,

[2:47:04] Cameron McEwen: and that's what happened in the 50s.

[2:47:06] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[2:47:08] Bob Dobbs: Do you know that article,

[2:47:10] Bob Dobbs: Out of the Counting House?

[2:47:13] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[2:47:14] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:47:14] Bob Dobbs: that's a pretty good article that people aren't aware of,

[2:47:17] Bob Dobbs: where he takes on feminism.

[2:47:19] Cameron McEwen: 46 or something like that.

[2:47:20] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:47:20] Bob Dobbs: 46,

[2:47:21] Bob Dobbs: and he takes on feminism and what's going to happen to the family.

[2:47:24] Bob Dobbs: It's really an important article.

[2:47:27] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[2:47:27] Bob Dobbs: And then the third thing

[2:47:29] Bob Dobbs: is Augustine's third term.

[2:47:33] Bob Dobbs: When you talk about getting a third term,

[2:47:35] Bob Dobbs: Kroker writes about this.

[2:47:36] Bob Dobbs: And it may have come from Talcott Parsons,

[2:47:39] Bob Dobbs: I think that was his PhD topic,

[2:47:43] Bob Dobbs: about the resolution of the endless dichotomies in the Hellenic culture.

[2:47:51] Bob Dobbs: And then Augustine comes along,

[2:47:52] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[2:47:53] Bob Dobbs: 400 years later and resolves it with the third term.

[2:47:56] Cameron McEwen: Kroker got this from...

[2:47:57] Cameron McEwen: Kroker got this from Charles Cochran.

[2:48:00] Bob Dobbs: No,

[2:48:00] Bob Dobbs: that's right.

[2:48:00] Cameron McEwen: Who was a good friend of Harold Innis.

[2:48:03] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[2:48:04] Bob Dobbs: Cochran and then Parsons and then Kroker.

[2:48:06] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:48:06] Cameron McEwen: that's the lineage.

[2:48:08] Cameron McEwen: So Cochran died a young man,

[2:48:11] Cameron McEwen: or he made fairly young,

[2:48:12] Cameron McEwen: 50s,

[2:48:12] Cameron McEwen: in 1945,

[2:48:17] Cameron McEwen: which was too bad because he was a very acute intellect.

[2:48:23] Cameron McEwen: And he just,

[2:48:24] Cameron McEwen: he left two books.

[2:48:26] Cameron McEwen: One on

[2:48:28] Cameron McEwen: Thucydides, I believe,

[2:48:30] Cameron McEwen: and the other on

[2:48:32] Cameron McEwen: Augustine. And recently,

[2:48:35] Cameron McEwen: notes that he put together on Augustine have been published.

[2:48:41] Cameron McEwen: So now he has a third book.

[2:48:44] Bob Dobbs: So you know about the third term idea then?

[2:48:47] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[2:48:48] Cameron McEwen: But the problem is the third term.

[2:48:51] Cameron McEwen: You see,

[2:48:52] Cameron McEwen: all of these phrases,

[2:48:54] Cameron McEwen: dualism,

[2:48:56] Cameron McEwen: triads,

[2:48:58] Cameron McEwen: third,

[2:48:59] Cameron McEwen: fourth,

[2:48:59] Cameron McEwen: all these sorts of things need to be analyzed because they're all complex molecules.

[2:49:07] Cameron McEwen: And the question is,

[2:49:08] Cameron McEwen: what are the elements in them?

[2:49:11] Cameron McEwen: If one of the elements in these things is all figure or all ground,

[2:49:20] Cameron McEwen: then the whole element becomes part of the problem.

[2:49:25] Cameron McEwen: rather than part of the solution.

[2:49:30] Cameron McEwen: This is what

[2:49:34] Cameron McEwen: I like in McLuhan and what I continually learn from him is that any of these questions require very precise focus and it's very difficult to achieve focus because

[2:49:49] Cameron McEwen: you have to work against yourself and you have to try to understand

[2:49:54] Cameron McEwen: understand from the other person's perspective what's going on,

[2:50:02] Cameron McEwen: right?

[2:50:03] Cameron McEwen: In a certain sense,

[2:50:04] Cameron McEwen: every position possible in the interior landscape is true.

[2:50:10] Cameron McEwen: It's true in the sense that somebody either did believe it to be true or could believe it to be true.

[2:50:18] Cameron McEwen: And so when McLuhan says,

[2:50:19] Cameron McEwen: well,

[2:50:20] Cameron McEwen: I don't pay any attention to values,

[2:50:22] Cameron McEwen: what do you...

[2:50:24] Cameron McEwen: He means that in senses that people don't appreciate.

[2:50:28] Cameron McEwen: He paid very great attention to values in some senses,

[2:50:32] Cameron McEwen: but in the sense of discounting whether or not something is true on the surface,

[2:50:43] Cameron McEwen: he paid no attention to that whatsoever.

[2:50:46] Cameron McEwen: And that's because everything you analyze in the interior landscape could be true.

[2:50:53] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[2:50:55] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[2:50:55] Bob Dobbs: that's very good.

[2:50:57] Bob Dobbs: So lockdown Bob.

[2:50:58] Cameron McEwen: Let me just.

[2:50:59] Cameron McEwen: Go ahead.

[2:51:00] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:51:00] Bob Dobbs: lockdown Bob rule is external environment lockdowns Bob,

[2:51:05] Bob Dobbs: or the technology raises Bob to the center of the situation,

[2:51:09] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[2:51:09] Bob Dobbs: co-anesthetic.

[2:51:11] Bob Dobbs: And so I lock down anti-environment.

[2:51:14] Bob Dobbs: So it's a two meaning there of what you're talking about.

[2:51:17] Bob Dobbs: I have to recognize the external stuff or else I'll get locked down.

[2:51:23] Bob Dobbs: And yet I have to recognize my own power of perception,

[2:51:26] Bob Dobbs: whatever that means.

[2:51:29] Bob Dobbs: And that's the other part of lockdown,

[2:51:31] Bob Dobbs: Bob Rule.

[2:51:31] Bob Dobbs: So what you're describing is a two-way street.

[2:51:35] Bob Dobbs: two-way song.

[2:51:36] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[2:51:37] Cameron McEwen: So it's not just two-way.

[2:51:40] Cameron McEwen: We don't even know how many ways that street runs.

[2:51:44] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[2:51:45] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[2:51:45] Cameron McEwen: And that's because if you think about when the structure of chemical elements first began to be intuitive,

[2:51:59] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[2:51:59] Cameron McEwen: people are still talking about the structure of chemical elements right now as a problem.

[2:52:04] Cameron McEwen: I don't mean to indicate that people saw it and that was it.

[2:52:08] Cameron McEwen: No,

[2:52:08] Cameron McEwen: they began to get an intuition of it.

[2:52:11] Cameron McEwen: But when they did,

[2:52:12] Cameron McEwen: it was one element,

[2:52:14] Cameron McEwen: namely oxygen.

[2:52:16] Cameron McEwen: And then they were able to gradually go from oxygen in

[2:52:20] Cameron McEwen: 1790 to Mendeleev's table 80 years later.

[2:52:25] Cameron McEwen: So it took a long time to figure out what was in there.

[2:52:29] Cameron McEwen: But anyway,

[2:52:30] Cameron McEwen: you're talking about subject and object.

[2:52:35] Cameron McEwen: Bob anti-environment is the way you're putting it.

[2:52:38] Bob Dobbs: Which is a printing press effect.

[2:52:41] Bob Dobbs: I recognize the limitation of that dialectic.

[2:52:45] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:52:45] Cameron McEwen: but it's not,

[2:52:46] Cameron McEwen: you see,

[2:52:46] Cameron McEwen: it's not just a dialectic.

[2:52:48] Cameron McEwen: It needs to be put on this spectrum where there's,

[2:52:53] Cameron McEwen: at one end anti-environment and the other end is all Bob.

[2:52:57] Cameron McEwen: And there's an unknown number of figure and ground configurations between those two.

[2:53:05] Cameron McEwen: I think that's what I'm showing in my chart.

[2:53:07] Bob Dobbs: That's what I'm doing in my chart.

[2:53:09] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:53:09] Cameron McEwen: exactly.

[2:53:10] Cameron McEwen: I think that's true.

[2:53:11] Cameron McEwen: That's true.

[2:53:12] Cameron McEwen: That's absolutely true.

[2:53:14] Cameron McEwen: But now what we're doing is we're coming back to the question I tried to raise before about how we come out of chart.

[2:53:24] Cameron McEwen: And what I'm going to read here is my way of coming out of the chart.

[2:53:28] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[2:53:28] Cameron McEwen: And I think what you will say as well,

[2:53:32] Cameron McEwen: that is

[2:53:33] Cameron McEwen: Bob.

[2:53:34] Cameron McEwen: That is Bob,

[2:53:35] Cameron McEwen: but Bob with a line through him.

[2:53:37] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:53:37] Bob Dobbs: I'll absorb you regardless of what you say.

[2:53:41] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:53:43] Cameron McEwen: So anyway,

[2:53:44] Cameron McEwen: I was just talking about avoiding the automatic closure or involuntary fixing of attitudes that so easily results from any given cultural situation.

[2:53:55] Cameron McEwen: Send me that quote,

[2:53:56] Bob Dobbs: too.

[2:53:57] Bob Dobbs: Any of these quotes then,

[2:53:58] Bob Dobbs: send me.

[2:53:59] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:53:59] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:54:00] Cameron McEwen: this is in a post that I just.

[2:54:02] Cameron McEwen: did so I'll send you the link to the post.

[2:54:05] Cameron McEwen: So it's not just any given cultural situation,

[2:54:10] Cameron McEwen: it's any given individual psychological situation because humans as humans have increasingly needed to have an identity associated with one

[2:54:27] Cameron McEwen: end or the other of the spectrum and that's that

[2:54:30] Cameron McEwen: basically defines all of our problems.

[2:54:34] Cameron McEwen: The fact that humans are increasingly less able to be flexible in life to relate to others as having equally valid solutions to problems of identity.

[2:54:52] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:54:52] Bob Dobbs: they say that the millennials,

[2:54:54] Bob Dobbs: they need safe zones.

[2:54:56] Bob Dobbs: They can't hear an opposing idea.

[2:54:59] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[2:54:59] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.

[2:55:00] Cameron McEwen: correct.

[2:55:01] Cameron McEwen: So this is what McLuhan calls the discovery of the technique of open field perception.

[2:55:11] Cameron McEwen: I hope that the word technique comes increasingly into

[2:55:16] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan vocabulary in the late

[2:55:20] Cameron McEwen: 40s and early

[2:55:21] Cameron McEwen: 50s. And what he's taught,

[2:55:22] Cameron McEwen: what he means by technique is basically how poets uh

[2:55:30] Cameron McEwen: operate their vocabulary.

[2:55:33] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[2:55:33] Bob Dobbs: Technique versus sensibility.

[2:55:36] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[2:55:36] Cameron McEwen: And so what he says in that same essay is that for

[2:55:44] Cameron McEwen: Eliot, there is no sensibility aside from technique.

[2:55:48] Cameron McEwen: But what people want to do is just talk about sensibility.

[2:55:53] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[2:55:53] Cameron McEwen: And you can see there how what McLuhan is saying is that

[2:55:58] Cameron McEwen: If people just want to talk about sensibility,

[2:56:00] Cameron McEwen: they want to get to one end or the other of the spectrum.

[2:56:04] Cameron McEwen: They don't want to be bothered by the complication of technique.

[2:56:09] Cameron McEwen: But there is no such thing as having a sensibility aside from technique.

[2:56:16] Bob Dobbs: So that's the cul-de-sac?

[2:56:21] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:56:21] Cameron McEwen: the cul-de-sac is the lack of...

[2:56:28] Cameron McEwen: social and individual ability to get away from the need to go to one end or the other of the spectrum.

[2:56:39] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[2:56:40] Cameron McEwen: When the cul-de-sac really involves a further step,

[2:56:45] Cameron McEwen: and that is that at the ends of the spectrum,

[2:56:49] Cameron McEwen: which lack articulation,

[2:56:51] Cameron McEwen: there is nothing.

[2:56:53] Cameron McEwen: Those are two nihilistic positions that flatline,

[2:56:59] Cameron McEwen: right?

[2:57:00] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[2:57:00] Cameron McEwen: So there's another tie to your chart.

[2:57:04] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[2:57:05] Cameron McEwen: But let me just go on here,

[2:57:06] Cameron McEwen: because this is a very,

[2:57:07] Cameron McEwen: very interesting...

[2:57:10] Cameron McEwen: quotation from McLuhan and one where he was self-consciously addressing his fellow academics right the the humanities Association is sort of the top level of the

[2:57:27] Cameron McEwen: of Canadian intellectuals okay so he's talked about the process of discovery of the process of insight itself which relates

[2:57:39] Cameron McEwen: to the stages of apprehension,

[2:57:43] Cameron McEwen: which relates to the early

[2:57:47] Cameron McEwen: 1950s essays that you and I are always talking about.

[2:57:51] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[2:57:51] Cameron McEwen: So you have the discovery of the process of insight itself,

[2:57:56] Cameron McEwen: technique of avoiding automatic closure,

[2:57:59] Cameron McEwen: the discovery of the technique of open field perception.

[2:58:03] Cameron McEwen: Then he goes on to say,

[2:58:05] Cameron McEwen: the technique of insight itself.

[2:58:08] Cameron McEwen: is a natural phase to succeed the

[2:58:11] Cameron McEwen: 19th century discovery of the technique of invention because,

[2:58:16] Cameron McEwen: he says,

[2:58:18] Cameron McEwen: it is the means of abstracting oneself from the bias and consequence of one's own culture.

[2:58:26] Cameron McEwen: And one's own culture is both social and individual.

[2:58:31] Bob Dobbs: What was that?

[2:58:33] Bob Dobbs: Read that last sentence.

[2:58:35] Cameron McEwen: I was adding a editorial note.

[2:58:37] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[2:58:38] Cameron McEwen: Culture is both individual and social.

[2:58:41] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:58:42] Cameron McEwen: Harold,

[2:58:42] Cameron McEwen: and now I'm going back to McLuhan.

[2:58:44] Cameron McEwen: Harold Ennis'

[2:58:45] Cameron McEwen: concern and the bias of communication is with the technique of suspended judgment.

[2:58:51] Cameron McEwen: That means not the willingness to admit other points of view,

[2:58:56] Cameron McEwen: but the technique of how not to have a point of view.

[2:59:01] Cameron McEwen: Very,

[2:59:01] Cameron McEwen: very important.

[2:59:02] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:59:02] Bob Dobbs: that is.

[2:59:03] Cameron McEwen: Not the willingness to admit other points of view,

[2:59:05] Cameron McEwen: but the technique of how not.

[2:59:07] Cameron McEwen: to have a point of view.

[2:59:09] Cameron McEwen: So that's important.

[2:59:11] Cameron McEwen: Very important.

[2:59:12] Cameron McEwen: And what that means for me is that thinking elevates itself above the spectrum so that it recognizes every single point on the spectrum as potentially

[2:59:28] Cameron McEwen: true and only relates to anything on the basis of that superposition.

[2:59:37] Cameron McEwen: And that's how not to have a point of view.

[2:59:39] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[2:59:40] Bob Dobbs: And so

[2:59:41] Bob Dobbs: I want to show,

[2:59:43] Bob Dobbs: Barry mentioned this,

[2:59:44] Bob Dobbs: Barry Nevitt,

[2:59:45] Bob Dobbs: the generalist of collecting different points of view.

[2:59:51] Bob Dobbs: That's the multi-specialist.

[2:59:54] Bob Dobbs: But the multi-perceptualist does not collect different points of view or different opinions or schools of thought.

[3:00:02] Bob Dobbs: They deal with different perceptual anti-environment or perceptual styles.

[3:00:07] Bob Dobbs: So that's why my chart isn't just Catholicism versus Buddhism versus science and

[3:00:15] Bob Dobbs: Marxism.

[3:00:17] Bob Dobbs: That's why I have to make everything Königsbergian and bring in the anti-environment to merge with the people that make the ideas that are systems in themselves.

[3:00:27] Bob Dobbs: So the complexity of the chart is of the same purpose of that last section you read.

[3:00:34] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[3:00:36] Cameron McEwen: But the question...

[3:00:37] Cameron McEwen: that gets raised there is,

[3:00:40] Cameron McEwen: is it possible to have a technique of not having a point of view aside from a certain pattern recognition that achieves common focus?

[3:00:53] Cameron McEwen: And the problem I see between your view and my view is that you seem to want to have a

[3:01:08] Cameron McEwen: recognition of a pattern that is yours.

[3:01:13] Cameron McEwen: And for my way of thinking,

[3:01:16] Cameron McEwen: the recognition of a pattern isn't really a recognition or a pattern unless it's collective.

[3:01:26] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[3:01:26] Bob Dobbs: I'm pointing the collectivity out just like McLuhan did,

[3:01:32] Bob Dobbs: and he put himself in the center,

[3:01:34] Bob Dobbs: Center for Culture and Technology.

[3:01:37] Bob Dobbs: because he could see it and others didn't.

[3:01:40] Bob Dobbs: I'm claiming to see something that others don't,

[3:01:43] Bob Dobbs: but it certainly includes...

[3:01:44] Bob Dobbs: perception of collectivities,

[3:01:46] Bob Dobbs: and then it got proven when I evoked ION,

[3:01:50] Bob Dobbs: which is,

[3:01:51] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[3:01:51] Bob Dobbs: the realm of what top secret stuff hasn't been revealed yet,

[3:01:57] Bob Dobbs: but you will hear about it.

[3:01:59] Cameron McEwen: All right,

[3:02:01] Cameron McEwen: let me go on.

[3:02:04] Cameron McEwen: I know where you're going with that,

[3:02:07] Cameron McEwen: and I know it's nothing we can talk about today.

[3:02:10] Bob Dobbs: That's right,

[3:02:12] Bob Dobbs: you have to wait till I prove it.

[3:02:14] Bob Dobbs: All right,

[3:02:15] Cameron McEwen: fine.

[3:02:16] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[3:02:16] Cameron McEwen: So there's two different ways of proof.

[3:02:20] Cameron McEwen: There's proof that overwhelms objections,

[3:02:24] Cameron McEwen: and there's proof that is just practical science that goes on plotting day after day,

[3:02:33] Cameron McEwen: making prosaic discoveries.

[3:02:35] Cameron McEwen: And through those prosaic discoveries,

[3:02:40] Cameron McEwen: revolutionizes the world.

[3:02:42] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[3:02:43] Cameron McEwen: You seem to me to tend to the overwhelming question of Prufrock,

[3:02:49] Cameron McEwen: and

[3:02:50] Cameron McEwen: I tend to the plotting science.

[3:02:55] Bob Dobbs: No,

[3:02:55] Bob Dobbs: no,

[3:02:56] Bob Dobbs: I'm plotting too.

[3:02:57] Bob Dobbs: I've been plotting with technologies and breakthroughs for 10 years.

[3:03:00] Bob Dobbs: Slowly we enter the inner sanctum,

[3:03:05] Bob Dobbs: and they must put their arms down,

[3:03:10] Bob Dobbs: or put their hands up and surrender.

[3:03:12] Bob Dobbs: That's what we're doing right now.

[3:03:14] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[3:03:15] Bob Dobbs: we meet regularly with the inner elite.

[3:03:19] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[3:03:20] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[3:03:21] Cameron McEwen: good.

[3:03:21] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[3:03:22] Cameron McEwen: I'll just finish this quotation,

[3:03:24] Cameron McEwen: right?

[3:03:24] Cameron McEwen: So we have...

[3:03:26] Bob Dobbs: And they track everything I do,

[3:03:28] Bob Dobbs: so they're listening to you now.

[3:03:30] Bob Dobbs: So you have an audience.

[3:03:34] Cameron McEwen: The technique of how not to have a point of view.

[3:03:37] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[3:03:38] Cameron McEwen: This is identical with the problem facing physicists.

[3:03:42] Cameron McEwen: in correcting the bias of the instruments of research.

[3:03:48] Cameron McEwen: And it draws attention to the fact that the historian,

[3:03:52] Cameron McEwen: the poet,

[3:03:53] Cameron McEwen: the critic,

[3:03:54] Cameron McEwen: and the philosopher now,

[3:03:56] Cameron McEwen: as always,

[3:03:58] Cameron McEwen: face exactly the same situation as the scientist.

[3:04:04] Bob Dobbs: Interesting.

[3:04:04] Cameron McEwen: So there you have it.

[3:04:05] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[3:04:06] Bob Dobbs: And you got historian,

[3:04:07] Bob Dobbs: poet,

[3:04:07] Bob Dobbs: critic,

[3:04:09] Bob Dobbs: and scientist?

[3:04:11] Cameron McEwen: Historian,

[3:04:12] Cameron McEwen: poet,

[3:04:12] Cameron McEwen: critic,

[3:04:13] Cameron McEwen: and philosopher all face the same situation as the scientist.

[3:04:17] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[3:04:18] Bob Dobbs: now the historian is the perception of significant order,

[3:04:25] Bob Dobbs: sequential ordering.

[3:04:27] Bob Dobbs: But the poet does the perception of abstract patterns.

[3:04:33] Bob Dobbs: In other words,

[3:04:33] Bob Dobbs: the historian's linear,

[3:04:35] Bob Dobbs: and the poet is simultaneous,

[3:04:38] Bob Dobbs: and the critic is maybe in between.

[3:04:41] Bob Dobbs: And then the philosopher can be in between or on either side.

[3:04:44] Bob Dobbs: So I see the eye-ear played out in those four terms.

[3:04:49] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[3:04:49] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.

[3:04:50] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.

[3:04:51] Cameron McEwen: By the way,

[3:04:54] Cameron McEwen: I think the key page for all of McLuhan is Take Today 22.

[3:04:59] Cameron McEwen: And on Take Today 22,

[3:05:01] Cameron McEwen: he says there are only two extreme forms of human experience,

[3:05:05] Cameron McEwen: the eye and the ear.

[3:05:07] Cameron McEwen: And what he means by that is that on the spectrum,

[3:05:11] Cameron McEwen: of human experience,

[3:05:12] Cameron McEwen: you can have all ear at one end and all eye at the other.

[3:05:16] Cameron McEwen: In between,

[3:05:17] Cameron McEwen: you always have figure and ground of eye and ear.

[3:05:21] Cameron McEwen: And in order to have figure and ground,

[3:05:24] Cameron McEwen: you have to have a gap between them,

[3:05:26] Cameron McEwen: and that gap is tactility,

[3:05:28] Cameron McEwen: as we both know.

[3:05:29] Cameron McEwen: So

[3:05:30] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan position is that all human experience can be arrayed along the spectrum of eye-ear with...

[3:05:39] Cameron McEwen: tactility in the middle and it's not the case that all human experience is just those points along the spectrum but rather that those points along the figure

[3:05:54] Cameron McEwen: ground spectrum of eye and ear and tactility supply the correct focus for investigating probing the world of interior landscape sorry

[3:06:08] Bob Dobbs: The world of insight,

[3:06:11] Bob Dobbs: probing the world of insight.

[3:06:14] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[3:06:15] Cameron McEwen: I would say that it's not you probe the world of insight,

[3:06:20] Cameron McEwen: it's probing is the exercise of insight in investigating the interior world.

[3:06:28] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[3:06:28] Cameron McEwen: It's not that insight is all along that spectrum.

[3:06:33] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan reserves insight for the very center of the spectrum.

[3:06:38] Bob Dobbs: If that's what he means when he says insight,

[3:06:41] Bob Dobbs: remember you read that one of the quotes

[3:06:44] Bob Dobbs: The word was used.

[3:06:46] Bob Dobbs: Can you find that quickly and state the few words around insight?

[3:06:56] Cameron McEwen: I will look for it.

[3:07:21] Cameron McEwen: I'm not immediately finding it,

[3:07:25] Cameron McEwen: no.

[3:07:25] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[3:07:28] Bob Dobbs: here.

[3:07:28] Cameron McEwen: So you're probably,

[3:07:30] Cameron McEwen: I was looking too far back into an older quotation.

[3:07:34] Cameron McEwen: The quotation that I gave here was Bertrand Russell pointed to the great achievement of the 20th century as the technique of suspended judgment.

[3:07:43] Cameron McEwen: That is,

[3:07:44] Cameron McEwen: it made the discovery of the process of insight itself.

[3:07:50] Cameron McEwen: So insight is what he is going to call,

[3:07:55] Cameron McEwen: a few sentences later,

[3:07:57] Cameron McEwen: the technique of how not to have a point of view.

[3:08:01] Cameron McEwen: And that is possible only for somebody that is able to range over the entire spectrum of points of view.

[3:08:11] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[3:08:14] Bob Dobbs: Retracing the stage of apprehension.

[3:08:19] Bob Dobbs: The process of insight.

[3:08:21] Bob Dobbs: Thompson says that the mind has five charts,

[3:08:24] Bob Dobbs: five phases,

[3:08:25] Bob Dobbs: and there's different victims in each phase over

[3:08:28] Bob Dobbs: 20,000 years.

[3:08:29] Bob Dobbs: But the modern one is the victim is the mind.

[3:08:33] Bob Dobbs: It's probably a left hemisphere opinionated mind.

[3:08:36] Bob Dobbs: And the process of insight,

[3:08:40] Bob Dobbs: you get out of that,

[3:08:42] Bob Dobbs: you transcend that.

[3:08:45] Bob Dobbs: If you think of insight as mind,

[3:08:47] Bob Dobbs: that's a victim.

[3:08:49] Bob Dobbs: in the 20th century.

[3:08:52] Bob Dobbs: So once McLuhan was on front page challenge and he said he liked working with businessmen because they were interested in ideas.

[3:09:04] Bob Dobbs: Now there was a direct slap in academia.

[3:09:08] Bob Dobbs: Academia doesn't know what they're doing and they're getting fixed positions.

[3:09:11] Bob Dobbs: So McLuhan had to go into the wild world of commerce where there were people who had to live in the present and deal with self-correction.

[3:09:19] Bob Dobbs: and all those things you're quoting.

[3:09:22] Bob Dobbs: And so he's saying they exploit ideas,

[3:09:25] Bob Dobbs: they sell them,

[3:09:26] Bob Dobbs: because ideas are not the issue,

[3:09:29] Bob Dobbs: it's the process of insight,

[3:09:31] Bob Dobbs: the stages of awareness that McLuhan was pointing out.

[3:09:35] Bob Dobbs: So

[3:09:36] Bob Dobbs: I take that's what he meant by saying he's interested in ideas and businessmen are,

[3:09:42] Bob Dobbs: because you know back then in 1970,

[3:09:45] Bob Dobbs: 71,

[3:09:45] Bob Dobbs: when he said that,

[3:09:47] Bob Dobbs: Everybody thought businessmen were not interested in ideas.

[3:09:49] Bob Dobbs: That was the problem.

[3:09:51] Bob Dobbs: They were too practical,

[3:09:53] Bob Dobbs: right?

[3:09:53] Bob Dobbs: Too cynical.

[3:09:54] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[3:09:56] Cameron McEwen: I could talk about that some,

[3:09:58] Cameron McEwen: but

[3:09:59] Cameron McEwen: I think it's getting sort of off.

[3:10:01] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[3:10:01] Bob Dobbs: see,

[3:10:01] Bob Dobbs: make a note.

[3:10:02] Bob Dobbs: Make a note.

[3:10:03] Bob Dobbs: We'll pick up on that.

[3:10:05] Cameron McEwen: Okay.

[3:10:05] Cameron McEwen: Because that's,

[3:10:07] Cameron McEwen: I would say,

[3:10:08] Cameron McEwen: starting with McLuhan greater acquaintance with businessmen,

[3:10:13] Cameron McEwen: let's say around 1960,

[3:10:15] Cameron McEwen: that he realized

[3:10:16] Cameron McEwen: that you had to revise that opinion a little bit.

[3:10:20] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[3:10:21] Cameron McEwen: It was from 50 to 60 when he was under the influence of Mueller team,

[3:10:26] Cameron McEwen: and Mueller team was this big consultant,

[3:10:28] Cameron McEwen: and

[3:10:29] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan had the idea that Mueller team went into a big business like GE with his

[3:10:35] Cameron McEwen: Thomistic thoughts,

[3:10:37] Cameron McEwen: and he could straighten out this huge corporation and all that sort of stuff.

[3:10:42] Cameron McEwen: He soon found that...

[3:10:44] Cameron McEwen: dealing with big businesses like NBC and

[3:10:47] Cameron McEwen: New York Times and all that sort of stuff wasn't so easy and wasn't so pleasurable.

[3:10:55] Cameron McEwen: But leaving that aside,

[3:10:56] Cameron McEwen: let me try to relate the process of insight itself,

[3:11:01] Cameron McEwen: the stages of apprehension,

[3:11:04] Cameron McEwen: the drama of cognition.

[3:11:06] Cameron McEwen: Let me try to relate those to the means of abstracting oneself from the bias.

[3:11:13] Cameron McEwen: and consequences of one's own culture.

[3:11:16] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[3:11:17] Cameron McEwen: The technique of how not to have a point of view is the scientific recognition of the spectrum of figure

[3:11:31] Cameron McEwen: ground configurations,

[3:11:33] Cameron McEwen: let's say between the ear and the eye,

[3:11:37] Cameron McEwen: each of which configurations implicates

[3:11:43] Cameron McEwen: a certain

[3:11:46] Cameron McEwen: application of tactility.

[3:11:49] Cameron McEwen: So you at the very ends of the spectrum,

[3:11:53] Cameron McEwen: you have no tactility.

[3:11:56] Cameron McEwen: The figure and ground have lost touch with each other.

[3:12:00] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan often talked about the wheel and the axle.

[3:12:04] Cameron McEwen: Innis context,

[3:12:06] Cameron McEwen: one extreme of the wheel and axle is the wheel falls off.

[3:12:10] Cameron McEwen: They've completely lost touch.

[3:12:12] Cameron McEwen: And on the other extreme,

[3:12:14] Cameron McEwen: they've seized.

[3:12:15] Cameron McEwen: And they're too much in touch.

[3:12:18] Cameron McEwen: In fact,

[3:12:19] Cameron McEwen: they have ceased to have different identities.

[3:12:21] Cameron McEwen: They've become merged.

[3:12:23] Cameron McEwen: And those are the two extremes where there's no tactility.

[3:12:28] Cameron McEwen: But in between,

[3:12:29] Cameron McEwen: there's increasing tactility until at 50-50,

[3:12:34] Cameron McEwen: tactility is a major force,

[3:12:39] Cameron McEwen: you could say.

[3:12:40] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[3:12:41] Cameron McEwen: On the sides,

[3:12:43] Cameron McEwen: either figure and ground is...

[3:12:45] Cameron McEwen: overwhelming the other side,

[3:12:50] Cameron McEwen: and in doing so,

[3:12:51] Cameron McEwen: it's also overwhelming tactility.

[3:12:54] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[3:12:55] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[3:12:56] Cameron McEwen: Okay.

[3:12:57] Cameron McEwen: So for McLuhan,

[3:13:00] Cameron McEwen: what's necessary is some kind of recognition,

[3:13:05] Cameron McEwen: a social-slash-scientific recognition of these structures,

[3:13:12] Cameron McEwen: which enables...

[3:13:13] Cameron McEwen: the investigation of the interior landscape.

[3:13:17] Cameron McEwen: And you might,

[3:13:18] Cameron McEwen: so then the question arises,

[3:13:20] Cameron McEwen: well,

[3:13:20] Cameron McEwen: why is this even possible,

[3:13:23] Cameron McEwen: right?

[3:13:23] Cameron McEwen: Why is such a position before the configurations of experience possible?

[3:13:31] Cameron McEwen: Why is it not some sort of infinite regress where the scientist has one configuration and that's necessarily somewhere along the spectrum?

[3:13:44] Cameron McEwen: And then the scientist has views of other positions along the spectrum.

[3:13:52] Cameron McEwen: But that's just one more position on the spectrum that you never get out of that.

[3:13:57] Cameron McEwen: How is it possible to get out of that cul-de-sac or that spider's web?

[3:14:02] Cameron McEwen: And McLuhan answer to that is the process of insight,

[3:14:06] Cameron McEwen: the drama of cognition.

[3:14:09] Cameron McEwen: And why is that?

[3:14:10] Cameron McEwen: because McLuhan says

[3:14:13] Cameron McEwen: The great poets,

[3:14:16] Cameron McEwen: especially in the

[3:14:18] Cameron McEwen: 19th and 20th century,

[3:14:20] Cameron McEwen: have reverse engineered how that happens.

[3:14:24] Cameron McEwen: And how it happens is that at every instant in time,

[3:14:28] Cameron McEwen: human beings have a superposition to the possibilities of experience,

[3:14:35] Cameron McEwen: only one of which,

[3:14:37] Cameron McEwen: or some configuration of which,

[3:14:38] Cameron McEwen: I'm not saying that all experience is elemental.

[3:14:42] Cameron McEwen: It must be molecular and compound and all sorts of experience.

[3:14:46] Cameron McEwen: But human beings at every instant in time are faced with the possibilities of experience.

[3:14:53] Cameron McEwen: So the scientist in recognizing the truth value of all of the positions on the spectrum is doing nothing but be conscious of the drama of cognition that's going on at every second.

[3:15:08] Cameron McEwen: Every human being is constantly skipping.

[3:15:11] Cameron McEwen: from one position to another and unconsciously is doing what the scientist does consciously,

[3:15:19] Cameron McEwen: namely is faced with these possibilities and decides to jump to another one,

[3:15:25] Cameron McEwen: right?

[3:15:26] Cameron McEwen: That's what's always going on.

[3:15:27] Cameron McEwen: That's the drama of cognition.

[3:15:29] Cameron McEwen: That's what reverse engineering achieved in poetry and what reverse engineering achieved with Poe in detective stories,

[3:15:40] Cameron McEwen: right?

[3:15:41] Cameron McEwen: The evaluation of possibilities generating experience.

[3:15:49] Bob Dobbs: All right.

[3:15:49] Bob Dobbs: So in my book,

[3:15:51] Bob Dobbs: there's this quote.

[3:15:52] Bob Dobbs: I think I brought it up before.

[3:15:54] Bob Dobbs: So that Joyce thought only was,

[3:15:56] Bob Dobbs: James Joyce,

[3:15:57] Bob Dobbs: not only was the first to reveal the link between the stages of apprehension and the creative process,

[3:16:02] Bob Dobbs: he was the first to understand how the drama of cognition itself was the key archetype of all human ritual,

[3:16:08] Bob Dobbs: myth,

[3:16:08] Bob Dobbs: and legend.

[3:16:10] Bob Dobbs: And thus he was able to incorporate at every point in his work the body of the past in immediate relation to the slightest current of perception.

[3:16:19] Bob Dobbs: That's what you were just saying.

[3:16:20] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[3:16:21] Bob Dobbs: The slightest current of perception.

[3:16:23] Cameron McEwen: That is absolutely correct.

[3:16:26] Cameron McEwen: That,

[3:16:28] Cameron McEwen: what you just read,

[3:16:31] Cameron McEwen: is exactly

[3:16:32] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan suggestion for how we might achieve peace.

[3:16:38] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[3:16:39] Cameron McEwen: Peace at every level.

[3:16:41] Bob Dobbs: And so you're writing your blog.

[3:16:44] Bob Dobbs: A few people read it.

[3:16:46] Bob Dobbs: Do you think anti-environment is doing something to help people get to this point?

[3:16:51] Bob Dobbs: Or we've lost benefits from the present matrix?

[3:17:03] Cameron McEwen: I'll try to give you an interesting answer to that.

[3:17:09] Cameron McEwen: In the

[3:17:10] Cameron McEwen: 1980s and

[3:17:14] Cameron McEwen: 90s,

[3:17:15] Cameron McEwen: I was spending a lot of time in

[3:17:18] Cameron McEwen: Europe and the question always came up what the best airport would be.

[3:17:26] Cameron McEwen: Because normally I was renting a car and I was going to various places.

[3:17:32] Cameron McEwen: And so should I fly to Frankfurt or Stuttgart or Zurich or where?

[3:17:41] Cameron McEwen: Usually,

[3:17:42] Cameron McEwen: because I had friends in South Germany and

[3:17:45] Cameron McEwen: I was doing a lot of work in South Germany,

[3:17:49] Cameron McEwen: the answer was

[3:17:51] Cameron McEwen: Zurich.

[3:17:52] Cameron McEwen: So Swiss Air or whoever flew into

[3:17:55] Cameron McEwen: Zurich, that's where I would go.

[3:17:58] Cameron McEwen: And

[3:17:59] Cameron McEwen: I realized at a certain point that there was a

[3:18:03] Cameron McEwen: James, not only was James Joyce buried there,

[3:18:06] Cameron McEwen: but there was a

[3:18:08] Cameron McEwen: James Joyce Foundation,

[3:18:09] Cameron McEwen: a Stiftung.

[3:18:11] Cameron McEwen: It's called in German.

[3:18:13] Cameron McEwen: And they had a kind of

[3:18:17] Cameron McEwen: James Joyce museum with manuscripts and all that sort of stuff.

[3:18:22] Cameron McEwen: And so

[3:18:23] Cameron McEwen: I started to go there.

[3:18:25] Cameron McEwen: I would fly into Zurich,

[3:18:27] Cameron McEwen: and then I would go to the

[3:18:30] Cameron McEwen: I might visit Joyce's grave,

[3:18:33] Cameron McEwen: and then I would go to the if it was a nice day,

[3:18:37] Cameron McEwen: I'd go up in the

[3:18:38] Cameron McEwen: on the hill where his grave was,

[3:18:42] Cameron McEwen: and or I would go to the museum.

[3:18:45] Bob Dobbs: What was up on the hill?

[3:18:48] Cameron McEwen: His grave.

[3:18:49] Bob Dobbs: Grave,

[3:18:50] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[3:18:50] Bob Dobbs: go ahead.

[3:18:51] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[3:18:52] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[3:18:54] Cameron McEwen: So then I would...

[3:18:55] Bob Dobbs: Didn't Fritz Senn's group meet there?

[3:18:58] Cameron McEwen: Exactly.

[3:18:59] Cameron McEwen: That's where I'm going.

[3:19:01] Cameron McEwen: By going to the museum,

[3:19:05] Cameron McEwen: I got to...

[3:19:07] Cameron McEwen: I don't know,

[3:19:07] Cameron McEwen: be friends,

[3:19:08] Cameron McEwen: but at least

[3:19:11] Cameron McEwen: Dan and I knew each other,

[3:19:12] Cameron McEwen: had lots of discussions about things.

[3:19:15] Cameron McEwen: And in one of our discussions,

[3:19:17] Cameron McEwen: exactly the point that you just brought up came up.

[3:19:21] Cameron McEwen: And that was,

[3:19:24] Cameron McEwen: is it possible by doing something like what

[3:19:28] Cameron McEwen: Joyce did?

[3:19:30] Cameron McEwen: Or at the time,

[3:19:31] Cameron McEwen: I was trying to do a lot with Heidegger,

[3:19:34] Cameron McEwen: with what

[3:19:34] Cameron McEwen: Heidegger did.

[3:19:36] Cameron McEwen: Or what McLuhan did.

[3:19:39] Cameron McEwen: Is it possible to bend the arc of history,

[3:19:42] Cameron McEwen: as our buddy Obama was always talking about,

[3:19:48] Cameron McEwen: from

[3:19:48] Cameron McEwen: Martin Luther King?

[3:19:49] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[3:19:50] Cameron McEwen: Is it possible to bend the arc of history?

[3:19:53] Cameron McEwen: And what Fritz Zinn said to me is,

[3:19:59] Cameron McEwen: there is no answer to something like that.

[3:20:02] Cameron McEwen: That is a question that's entirely...

[3:20:06] Cameron McEwen: controlled by fate.

[3:20:08] Cameron McEwen: All we can do is work as hard as possible and keep hoping that something like that can eventuate beyond our powers of causing it.

[3:20:24] Bob Dobbs: Our powers of what?

[3:20:27] Cameron McEwen: Beyond our powers of causing it.

[3:20:29] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[3:20:31] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[3:20:31] Cameron McEwen: And I think he was right.

[3:20:33] Cameron McEwen: I think that's

[3:20:37] Cameron McEwen: you have to have the faith that something like this can happen,

[3:20:41] Cameron McEwen: but you also have to know that it does not depend upon human effort,

[3:20:48] Cameron McEwen: and above all,

[3:20:49] Cameron McEwen: it does not depend on my effort.

[3:20:54] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[3:20:55] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[3:20:56] Cameron McEwen: Even though the imperative of working as hard as possible is always there.

[3:21:02] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[3:21:05] Bob Dobbs: So you would,

[3:21:07] Bob Dobbs: did you sit in and present Joyce groups?

[3:21:10] Cameron McEwen: No,

[3:21:11] Cameron McEwen: no,

[3:21:12] Cameron McEwen: I was never there.

[3:21:14] Cameron McEwen: I would land,

[3:21:15] Cameron McEwen: I would spend some hours there,

[3:21:19] Cameron McEwen: or maybe the reverse.

[3:21:20] Cameron McEwen: I would be going out,

[3:21:22] Cameron McEwen: so I would arrive in Zurich early in the morning,

[3:21:25] Cameron McEwen: spend some time at the museum,

[3:21:27] Cameron McEwen: and then fly out.

[3:21:28] Cameron McEwen: So

[3:21:29] Cameron McEwen: I was never there in the evenings.

[3:21:33] Cameron McEwen: for lectures or things like that.

[3:21:35] Cameron McEwen: The museum there,

[3:21:37] Cameron McEwen: the foundation,

[3:21:39] Cameron McEwen: constantly has...

[3:21:42] Cameron McEwen: stuff from local Zurich people or from visiting scholars.

[3:21:49] Cameron McEwen: And,

[3:21:49] Cameron McEwen: of course,

[3:21:50] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[3:21:50] Cameron McEwen: Zurich,

[3:21:51] Cameron McEwen: that's where the

[3:21:52] Cameron McEwen: Gideon papers are.

[3:21:54] Cameron McEwen: That's where the

[3:21:56] Cameron McEwen: Jung papers are.

[3:21:57] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[3:21:58] Cameron McEwen: it's an incredible intellectual atmosphere there.

[3:22:02] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[3:22:03] Bob Dobbs: That's where Thompson spent the 80s in Zurich.

[3:22:07] Bob Dobbs: And he started writing a lot of poetry about that.

[3:22:12] Bob Dobbs: Did you ever bring up McLuhan with sin?

[3:22:14] Bob Dobbs: That's what I always wanted to do.

[3:22:16] Bob Dobbs: Never came up.

[3:22:17] Bob Dobbs: You weren't into McLuhan at that point,

[3:22:19] Bob Dobbs: I guess.

[3:22:21] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[3:22:21] Cameron McEwen: of course,

[3:22:23] Cameron McEwen: I had read a lot of McLuhan and there was a lot of McLuhan bouncing around in my head.

[3:22:28] Cameron McEwen: But at that point,

[3:22:32] Cameron McEwen: I thought there were problems in

[3:22:35] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan that he didn't realize.

[3:22:37] Cameron McEwen: And

[3:22:38] Cameron McEwen: I thought that the...

[3:22:41] Cameron McEwen: People like Heidegger or Hegel had done better work than him on what I thought were the important problems.

[3:22:52] Cameron McEwen: I came to revise that a little bit,

[3:22:54] Cameron McEwen: and now I think that although McLuhan certainly wasn't the historian that some of those people were,

[3:23:06] Cameron McEwen: he was probably better as a Postman.

[3:23:11] Cameron McEwen: of events.

[3:23:13] Bob Dobbs: What?

[3:23:15] Cameron McEwen: He was better at prognosis.

[3:23:17] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[3:23:19] Bob Dobbs: Kroker.

[3:23:19] Bob Dobbs: Canadians are good at the future of technology.

[3:23:22] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[3:23:26] Bob Dobbs: So you were saying,

[3:23:28] Bob Dobbs: yes,

[3:23:29] Bob Dobbs: you reappraise McLuhan.

[3:23:30] Bob Dobbs: Now that's,

[3:23:31] Bob Dobbs: you've told me before,

[3:23:32] Bob Dobbs: you would go to seminars with Derrida and stuff in Europe,

[3:23:36] Bob Dobbs: right?

[3:23:38] Bob Dobbs: Workshops.

[3:23:39] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[3:23:40] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[3:23:40] Bob Dobbs: you did a lot of that.

[3:23:42] Bob Dobbs: And that's your philosophical development or conceptual expertise,

[3:23:47] Bob Dobbs: right?

[3:23:48] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[3:23:49] Cameron McEwen: expertise,

[3:23:50] Cameron McEwen: I don't know.

[3:23:52] Cameron McEwen: I know a lot of people who would deny that I had any.

[3:23:57] Cameron McEwen: But I also want to make it clear that

[3:24:00] Cameron McEwen: I heard

[3:24:02] Cameron McEwen: Derrida speak a couple times,

[3:24:05] Cameron McEwen: but nothing more than that.

[3:24:08] Cameron McEwen: Number one,

[3:24:09] Cameron McEwen: I wasn't very interested in his work.

[3:24:11] Cameron McEwen: Number two,

[3:24:12] Cameron McEwen: I was extremely allergic to the enthusiasm for his work that other people had.

[3:24:20] Cameron McEwen: And in those days,

[3:24:23] Cameron McEwen: if you sat in on a seminar of Derrida,

[3:24:26] Cameron McEwen: that could make your whole career,

[3:24:28] Cameron McEwen: right?

[3:24:29] Cameron McEwen: He was like Midas.

[3:24:30] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[3:24:32] Cameron McEwen: He would touch you and then you were gold or something.

[3:24:35] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[3:24:36] Cameron McEwen: So that...

[3:24:38] Cameron McEwen: I was never involved in any of that.

[3:24:43] Bob Dobbs: When you write your blog,

[3:24:45] Bob Dobbs: are you arguing with those workshops and the content of them?

[3:24:51] Cameron McEwen: I wouldn't say arguing with.

[3:24:54] Cameron McEwen: I think what I do in terms of reading McLuhan and writing about McLuhan is that I have a consciousness of problems and solutions.

[3:25:08] Cameron McEwen: in

[3:25:09] Cameron McEwen: Greek philosophy and in German philosophy that most people don't have and aren't able to see in McLuhan or relate to McLuhan.

[3:25:22] Cameron McEwen: So

[3:25:23] Cameron McEwen: I like to think that

[3:25:25] Cameron McEwen: I raise problems for McLuhan that are unknown or at least unarticulated by...

[3:25:37] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan scholars,

[3:25:39] Cameron McEwen: and therefore they're not able to see virtues in McLuhan that I can see on the basis of my knowledge of those problems.

[3:25:51] Bob Dobbs: From Europe?

[3:25:53] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[3:25:53] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[3:25:54] Bob Dobbs: that's what I mean.

[3:25:55] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[3:25:55] Cameron McEwen: so I constantly bring up Nietzsche.

[3:25:58] Cameron McEwen: I have a whole series of posts on

[3:26:01] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan and Plato,

[3:26:03] Cameron McEwen: And in the back of my mind,

[3:26:06] Cameron McEwen: I know that...

[3:26:07] Cameron McEwen: If I live long enough and have a brain long enough,

[3:26:13] Cameron McEwen: then I will do a series of posts on

[3:26:16] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan and Aristotle.

[3:26:17] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[3:26:19] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[3:26:19] Bob Dobbs: look forward to that.

[3:26:22] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[3:26:23] Bob Dobbs: very good dissertation there.

[3:26:24] Bob Dobbs: I think that's time to end.

[3:26:28] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[3:26:29] Bob Dobbs: Do you have the sentence that you want to go in?

[3:26:32] Bob Dobbs: I said type up that sentence that we begin with.

[3:26:36] Cameron McEwen: Still have that in your mind?

[3:26:38] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[3:26:38] Cameron McEwen: I'll send you those,

[3:26:41] Cameron McEwen: no problem.

[3:26:42] Cameron McEwen: Notice,

[3:26:43] Cameron McEwen: I don't know if you saw,

[3:26:44] Cameron McEwen: I sent you two emails just with one line.

[3:26:50] Cameron McEwen: quotations.

[3:26:51] Cameron McEwen: Yes,

[3:26:53] Bob Dobbs: what was that about?

[3:26:55] Cameron McEwen: One was

[3:27:00] Bob Dobbs: Elliot Lewis.

[3:27:03] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[3:27:04] Cameron McEwen: I'll just pull those two up.

[3:27:17] Cameron McEwen: There's one was...

[3:27:18] Cameron McEwen: quotation from Pound's Critical Prose,

[3:27:20] Cameron McEwen: 1950,

[3:27:23] Cameron McEwen: and that was just bringing organic processes within the compass of technological means.

[3:27:30] Cameron McEwen: So

[3:27:32] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan was probably thinking of cybernetics,

[3:27:35] Cameron McEwen: was probably thinking of the Macy seminars,

[3:27:40] Cameron McEwen: but it's just,

[3:27:43] Cameron McEwen: it's an interesting half sentence.

[3:27:48] Cameron McEwen: Since it's from 1950,

[3:27:50] Cameron McEwen: it's the sort of stuff that you were thinking a lot about,

[3:27:54] Cameron McEwen: I think,

[3:27:54] Cameron McEwen: in the

[3:27:57] Cameron McEwen: 1980s,

[3:27:58] Bob Dobbs: 1990s. Yes.

[3:28:00] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[3:28:00] Bob Dobbs: so there was the pound quote.

[3:28:03] Bob Dobbs: What was the second one?

[3:28:05] Cameron McEwen: The other one was a quote from 1948,

[3:28:10] Cameron McEwen: so even earlier,

[3:28:12] Cameron McEwen: and it's from a letter to Pound.

[3:28:14] Cameron McEwen: And he says that

[3:28:16] Cameron McEwen: Poe in 18...

[3:28:17] Cameron McEwen: 40 or so invented the cinema via Dupin.

[3:28:24] Bob Dobbs: So

[3:28:25] Cameron McEwen: I thought that was a good example of the kind of effect before causes that your charts show.

[3:28:34] Bob Dobbs: Yep.

[3:28:36] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[3:28:36] Bob Dobbs: Very good.

[3:28:38] Bob Dobbs: Very enjoyable discussion.

[3:28:40] Bob Dobbs: I think people...

[3:28:41] Cameron McEwen: I will send you the stuff or the quotations from McLuhan that...

[3:28:47] Cameron McEwen: We discuss so that you have them.

[3:28:49] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[3:28:49] Bob Dobbs: I vaguely remember them because I've read that essay a couple of times from 1961.

[3:28:56] Bob Dobbs: But good to hear them again.

[3:28:57] Bob Dobbs: And,

[3:28:58] Bob Dobbs: yes,

[3:28:58] Bob Dobbs: you're making a good interpretation of the purpose of the chart.

[3:29:05] Cameron McEwen: Excellent.

[3:29:06] Cameron McEwen: So we had a long discussion.

[3:29:08] Cameron McEwen: Thank you for it.

[3:29:10] Cameron McEwen: Look forward to the next one,

[3:29:11] Cameron McEwen: and I wish you a good day.

[3:29:14] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[3:29:14] Bob Dobbs: and a good week to you,

[3:29:15] Bob Dobbs: sir.

[3:29:17] Cameron McEwen: Thank you very much,

[3:29:17] Cameron McEwen: Bob.

[3:29:18] Cameron McEwen: Okay,

[3:29:18] Bob Dobbs: Kevin.

[3:29:20] Bob Dobbs: Bye-bye.

[3:29:20] Bob Dobbs: Bye.