Dialogue 16 — Transcript

[00:02] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[00:03] Bob Dobbs: Bob and Cameron are back,

[00:06] Bob Dobbs: and this is the

[00:07] Bob Dobbs: 16th edition of our exploration of my book slash pamphlet.

[00:14] Bob Dobbs: And we did the tiny note chart as a sidebar so Cameron could get acquainted with some of the themes I was maybe thinking about or developing from while

[00:28] Bob Dobbs: doing the book,

[00:30] Bob Dobbs: which leads to a new development.

[00:32] Bob Dobbs: called the Tech Body.

[00:35] Bob Dobbs: Cameron and I said,

[00:37] Bob Dobbs: or Cameron came up with this idea,

[00:38] Bob Dobbs: he was,

[00:40] Bob Dobbs: what is the question,

[00:41] Bob Dobbs: Cameron,

[00:42] Bob Dobbs: that you raised at the end of last week?

[00:45] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[00:45] Cameron McEwen: actually,

[00:46] Cameron McEwen: it was you that raised it,

[00:47] Cameron McEwen: and that is the question of was the tiny note chart based on McLuhan,

[00:53] Cameron McEwen: or was McLuhan just part of the pattern within the tiny note chart?

[01:03] Bob Dobbs: First question,

[01:04] Bob Dobbs: first answer is no.

[01:05] Bob Dobbs: It's not based on McLuhan.

[01:08] Bob Dobbs: Each quadrant is an era,

[01:10] Bob Dobbs: different proportions,

[01:12] Bob Dobbs: as I show on the right side of the chart.

[01:15] Bob Dobbs: Whole different dynamic symmetry of tensions among proportions,

[01:19] Bob Dobbs: to quote McLuhan,

[01:21] Bob Dobbs: from the McLuhan Hot and Cool book,

[01:24] Bob Dobbs: around page 109 or so,

[01:27] Bob Dobbs: in the hardcover version.

[01:31] Bob Dobbs: And that yields the golden section in space or time.

[01:34] Bob Dobbs: You remember that quote?

[01:36] Bob Dobbs: It's a great quote.

[01:37] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[01:38] Bob Dobbs: So

[01:39] Bob Dobbs: I'm trying to show the dynamic symmetry of tensions among proportions within the Android meme.

[01:45] Bob Dobbs: So there's in the notation at the top of the chart,

[01:53] Bob Dobbs: the five columns under the terms Rye,

[01:56] Bob Dobbs: Eloy,

[01:56] Bob Dobbs: Too,

[01:56] Bob Dobbs: Lofty,

[01:58] Bob Dobbs: and Bob.

[02:00] Bob Dobbs: I have McLuhan references,

[02:02] Bob Dobbs: Kroker,

[02:03] Bob Dobbs: Jargon,

[02:04] Bob Dobbs: William and Thompson themes,

[02:06] Bob Dobbs: and LaRouche memes,

[02:08] Bob Dobbs: say,

[02:10] Bob Dobbs: and some of my stuff.

[02:12] Bob Dobbs: So each quadrant is supposed to be rotating around the other.

[02:17] Bob Dobbs: So there's not McLuhan as the ground.

[02:21] Bob Dobbs: LaRouche.

[02:22] Bob Dobbs: So one way I have it is that McLuhan is rhetoric,

[02:25] Bob Dobbs: LaRouche is dialectics,

[02:27] Bob Dobbs: Thompson is grammar.

[02:29] Bob Dobbs: Kroker is anarchism,

[02:32] Bob Dobbs: Marxism,

[02:33] Bob Dobbs: radicalism,

[02:34] Bob Dobbs: not sure,

[02:35] Bob Dobbs: but he's not.

[02:36] Bob Dobbs: He could be quadrivial,

[02:43] Bob Dobbs: geometry,

[02:44] Bob Dobbs: arithmetic,

[02:45] Bob Dobbs: and astronomy.

[02:48] Bob Dobbs: And then the Dobbs quadrant is the electrification of these previous media and then the digitization of them.

[02:59] Bob Dobbs: So

[03:00] Bob Dobbs: Dobbs is the ground.

[03:03] Bob Dobbs: In a way,

[03:03] Bob Dobbs: I'm the ground,

[03:05] Bob Dobbs: but I try to make it the Android meme,

[03:09] Bob Dobbs: not me per se.

[03:11] Bob Dobbs: But my talk about the Android meme is the ground.

[03:15] Cameron McEwen: So let's halt there for a minute because

[03:19] Cameron McEwen: I'm still unclear about the Android meme.

[03:25] Cameron McEwen: Is this,

[03:27] Cameron McEwen: we talked about it.

[03:28] Cameron McEwen: it being both singular and plural before.

[03:33] Cameron McEwen: But

[03:35] Cameron McEwen: I've never quite been able to understand if the

[03:39] Cameron McEwen: Android meme is conceived by you as having a kind of personality.

[03:46] Cameron McEwen: The Android meme,

[03:48] Cameron McEwen: if I understand you properly,

[03:50] Cameron McEwen: is organic and is the...

[03:57] Cameron McEwen: How can I say the taking over or the installation of consciousness in a new way?

[04:04] Cameron McEwen: Is that correct?

[04:05] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[04:05] Bob Dobbs: Yep.

[04:07] Cameron McEwen: And so.

[04:08] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[04:09] Bob Dobbs: go ahead.

[04:09] Cameron McEwen: So behind that question is,

[04:12] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[04:12] Cameron McEwen: when you you talk about the four figures in the tiny note chart as as being different kinds of different figures of speech.

[04:26] Cameron McEwen: different exercises of mind,

[04:29] Cameron McEwen: and that's fine.

[04:31] Cameron McEwen: But what I want to know is how these are being recognized as such.

[04:40] Cameron McEwen: So the whole question of whether or not McLuhan is the ground of these things depends upon how the figures are being recognized relative to each other.

[04:57] Cameron McEwen: What is the pattern recognition that is going on that can place the four of them?

[05:05] Cameron McEwen: in a certain pattern.

[05:07] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[05:08] Bob Dobbs: so each quadrant is more a technology than the human form.

[05:14] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan is there,

[05:15] Bob Dobbs: but he's merged with TV,

[05:18] Bob Dobbs: and it's actually holiopathic satellite TV.

[05:22] Bob Dobbs: How do I say it here?

[05:24] Bob Dobbs: Just get it right.

[05:26] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[05:26] Bob Dobbs: holiopathic TV slash satellite.

[05:30] Bob Dobbs: LaRouche is subsumed into holiopathic radio satellite.

[05:35] Bob Dobbs: Thompson is subsumed into a holopathic computer satellite.

[05:38] Bob Dobbs: So the constituents,

[05:40] Bob Dobbs: maybe you could say analog media,

[05:43] Bob Dobbs: make up the content of the

[05:44] Bob Dobbs: Android meme,

[05:45] Bob Dobbs: which is a digitizing process.

[05:47] Bob Dobbs: That's a more major thing than the people.

[05:51] Bob Dobbs: But because the Android meme is trying to be invisible and look like people,

[05:59] Bob Dobbs: the human part,

[06:00] Bob Dobbs: like a McLuhan,

[06:02] Bob Dobbs: is...

[06:03] Bob Dobbs: seen more than the technology,

[06:05] Bob Dobbs: which is how

[06:07] Bob Dobbs: I see

[06:08] Bob Dobbs: Joyce presenting the media in Finning's Wake.

[06:11] Bob Dobbs: So it's a model of my understanding of Finning's Wake.

[06:15] Bob Dobbs: It's a big factor.

[06:17] Bob Dobbs: You know the page,

[06:17] Bob Dobbs: I think we've mentioned page 309 or so,

[06:22] Bob Dobbs: the chapter right after the kids'

[06:26] Bob Dobbs: lesson in school opens with a description of H.C.E.,

[06:30] Bob Dobbs: Humphrey Chimpton Earwicker.

[06:32] Bob Dobbs: indistinguishable from a radio,

[06:35] Bob Dobbs: a radio of the 20s,

[06:36] Bob Dobbs: say,

[06:37] Bob Dobbs: 20s and 30s.

[06:39] Bob Dobbs: So the human is merged.

[06:40] Bob Dobbs: So

[06:41] Bob Dobbs: Joyce, nowadays we'd say,

[06:43] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[06:44] Bob Dobbs: he foresaw the cyborgian situation,

[06:48] Bob Dobbs: the term that was popularized,

[06:51] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[06:51] Bob Dobbs: in the 90s.

[06:54] Bob Dobbs: So,

[06:55] Bob Dobbs: and then I want to show other factors,

[06:57] Bob Dobbs: parts of nature,

[06:59] Bob Dobbs: emerging everything into each quadrant.

[07:02] Bob Dobbs: But each quadrant has a different ratio set up,

[07:07] Bob Dobbs: sensory ratio proportions.

[07:10] Cameron McEwen: And that's what's important to me,

[07:14] Cameron McEwen: Bob.

[07:15] Cameron McEwen: Let me put the question in a slightly different form.

[07:18] Cameron McEwen: Let's say that we're reporters or interested students around 1800,

[07:28] Cameron McEwen: and we're going around to different labs.

[07:32] Cameron McEwen: And some of the labs are run by alchemists and some of the labs are run by proto-chemists.

[07:40] Cameron McEwen: And we're trying to figure out sort of what's going on.

[07:43] Cameron McEwen: And so we talk to the alchemists,

[07:46] Cameron McEwen: we talk to the chemists,

[07:48] Cameron McEwen: and we say,

[07:49] Cameron McEwen: we want to know the story that's involved here.

[07:53] Cameron McEwen: And the alchemists are ranging over all of human history and they're talking about...

[08:01] Cameron McEwen: being able to explain everything that ever was,

[08:04] Cameron McEwen: and they're talking about different spirits and different levels of explanation,

[08:09] Cameron McEwen: all this sort of stuff,

[08:09] Cameron McEwen: very,

[08:10] Cameron McEwen: very complicated stuff,

[08:12] Cameron McEwen: but extremely comprehensive.

[08:15] Cameron McEwen: And then you have the chemists,

[08:16] Cameron McEwen: and the story there is we know almost nothing about everything.

[08:24] Cameron McEwen: All we know is that we're beginning to understand that there are people

[08:30] Cameron McEwen: appear to be some regularities that we never saw before,

[08:37] Cameron McEwen: but they're reproducible in a way that none of the alchemical stuff is.

[08:45] Cameron McEwen: And so these are the different stories going on.

[08:50] Cameron McEwen: And the interesting question,

[08:53] Cameron McEwen: to me at least,

[08:55] Cameron McEwen: is how these different stories are to be described.

[08:59] Cameron McEwen: and evaluated.

[09:02] Cameron McEwen: So in terms of the question of the different people on a tiny note chart,

[09:11] Cameron McEwen: for me,

[09:12] Cameron McEwen: one way to look at these different stories is to find out from you,

[09:17] Cameron McEwen: if you see a sentence or a paragraph from

[09:21] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan, LaRouche,

[09:23] Cameron McEwen: Kroker,

[09:24] Cameron McEwen: and Thompson,

[09:26] Cameron McEwen: how do you know it?

[09:28] Cameron McEwen: And let's say these paragraphs are blind,

[09:32] Cameron McEwen: right?

[09:33] Cameron McEwen: What is it about them,

[09:35] Cameron McEwen: aside from particular use of vocabulary,

[09:39] Cameron McEwen: right?

[09:40] Cameron McEwen: What is the structure of language in these paragraphs that allow you to say,

[09:49] Cameron McEwen: oh,

[09:50] Cameron McEwen: this is LaRouche or this is McLuhan,

[09:53] Cameron McEwen: right?

[09:54] Cameron McEwen: And because

[09:56] Cameron McEwen: Only when we know how you recognize these patterns can we understand how you are caching a term like the golden mean between them.

[10:12] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[10:12] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[10:14] Bob Dobbs: you said a word there,

[10:16] Bob Dobbs: in there.

[10:23] Bob Dobbs: I don't know what it was.

[10:24] Bob Dobbs: I wanted to ask you about that.

[10:28] Bob Dobbs: So,

[10:28] Bob Dobbs: what's their difference,

[10:30] Bob Dobbs: their structure,

[10:31] Bob Dobbs: their style?

[10:32] Cameron McEwen: No,

[10:33] Cameron McEwen: what's the principle of recognition?

[10:36] Cameron McEwen: What is it that you're doing?

[10:38] Cameron McEwen: You as the chemical...

[10:42] Cameron McEwen: analysts we could say what is it that you're doing with these samples that then allow you to say oh this sample works in this way this sample works in that way

[11:02] Bob Dobbs: I think I'm showing specialization yeah okay good

[11:11] Bob Dobbs: So that if you become a McLuhanite,

[11:14] Bob Dobbs: you're going to look at things through media structures,

[11:18] Bob Dobbs: and you're going to miss what McLuhan told me through Channel 2,

[11:23] Bob Dobbs: the evidence that he missed.

[11:24] Bob Dobbs: He didn't understand that management could slow down the transformations of media,

[11:31] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[11:32] Bob Dobbs: just managerially stubborn,

[11:35] Bob Dobbs: holding things up.

[11:37] Bob Dobbs: Sure.

[11:39] Bob Dobbs: And then.

[11:40] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[11:41] Bob Dobbs: so he said he missed that aspect.

[11:45] Cameron McEwen: Notice that what he saw and what he missed,

[11:49] Cameron McEwen: those are on completely different levels.

[11:52] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[11:52] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[11:55] Cameron McEwen: the managers missing something or slowing down something,

[12:02] Cameron McEwen: that still depends on what's going on with media.

[12:07] Cameron McEwen: It's just that it's like the minus sign.

[12:10] Cameron McEwen: instead of the positive sign in front of media structures.

[12:15] Cameron McEwen: So

[12:18] Cameron McEwen: I think you're right that

[12:20] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan analyzes in terms of media structures but there's a big question of what media are and in my view at least that's something that McLuhan research hasn't understood.

[12:37] Cameron McEwen: So let's let's move on from

[12:39] Cameron McEwen: Okay,

[12:39] Bob Dobbs: so what I would then say,

[12:42] Bob Dobbs: if I'm going to think about the angle of management,

[12:45] Bob Dobbs: I find LaRouche has a better explanation of how management slows it down.

[12:52] Bob Dobbs: But LaRouche doesn't have much awareness of McLuhan's dynamics.

[12:57] Bob Dobbs: And then Thompson comes in with something totally different.

[13:02] Bob Dobbs: He comes from a

[13:03] Bob Dobbs: Buddhist angle or a yoga angle.

[13:06] Bob Dobbs: So I wanted to show...

[13:08] Bob Dobbs: Different schools,

[13:09] Bob Dobbs: I would say schools of thought and perception,

[13:14] Bob Dobbs: use both words,

[13:16] Bob Dobbs: and how people got specialized.

[13:18] Bob Dobbs: And I was trying to show how you overcome the specialization and that the Android meme had already done it right in front of us,

[13:28] Bob Dobbs: presenting a non-specialized situation.

[13:31] Bob Dobbs: And that's where you get different memes showing up and then disappearing and replaced by another meme.

[13:37] Cameron McEwen: Okay.

[13:38] Cameron McEwen: So let me rephrase what I think you're saying,

[13:45] Cameron McEwen: and you can tell me if I'm screwing up somewhere or missing something,

[13:49] Cameron McEwen: okay?

[13:50] Cameron McEwen: So what

[13:52] Cameron McEwen: I hear you saying is that

[13:55] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan identifies certain structures that he talks about in terms of media.

[14:04] Cameron McEwen: And he...

[14:08] Cameron McEwen: He recognizes that the recognition of his analysis is subject to a

[14:24] Cameron McEwen: bunch of factors.

[14:26] Cameron McEwen: So if somebody is going to come to understand it,

[14:30] Cameron McEwen: they have to go through a kind of transformation themselves.

[14:37] Cameron McEwen: Because media aren't different from the,

[14:43] Cameron McEwen: are already involved in the thinking of the person trying to understand media.

[14:50] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[14:50] Cameron McEwen: So unless you go through a kind of flip where your mind comes to take account of media,

[15:00] Cameron McEwen: you're never going to understand media,

[15:03] Cameron McEwen: right?

[15:03] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[15:03] Cameron McEwen: So there's a flip.

[15:05] Cameron McEwen: and education that's necessary.

[15:07] Cameron McEwen: And then there's also a flip in management.

[15:10] Cameron McEwen: And the management flip can be seen very well in terms of chemistry,

[15:17] Cameron McEwen: where what happened to achieve the victory of chemistry over alchemy is that when people in factories producing ink or producing gunpowder or producing paint

[15:33] Cameron McEwen: in the course of the

[15:35] Cameron McEwen: 19th century,

[15:36] Cameron McEwen: they were able to use chemistry to either...

[15:40] Cameron McEwen: innovate or improve these manufacturing processes.

[15:46] Cameron McEwen: And once the manufacturing processes took off,

[15:50] Cameron McEwen: then that set in motion a whole chain of things behind them,

[15:56] Cameron McEwen: right?

[15:57] Cameron McEwen: The production of paint,

[15:59] Cameron McEwen: for example,

[16:00] Cameron McEwen: probably required certain products that themselves had to be produced.

[16:09] Cameron McEwen: chemically,

[16:12] Cameron McEwen: right?

[16:12] Cameron McEwen: And maybe that required a new kind of mining that also involved chemistry.

[16:17] Cameron McEwen: So here,

[16:21] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan might be seen as saying,

[16:23] Cameron McEwen: okay,

[16:24] Cameron McEwen: so you have the basic structures and there's already a problem in education,

[16:31] Cameron McEwen: but the real problem exists in management,

[16:35] Cameron McEwen: at every level of management,

[16:37] Cameron McEwen: including the management

[16:39] Cameron McEwen: of human identity.

[16:42] Cameron McEwen: And that's what Tate today is all about.

[16:44] Cameron McEwen: So then he's recognized structures and he looks on the basis of structures,

[16:54] Cameron McEwen: he looks backwards,

[16:56] Cameron McEwen: you could say,

[16:57] Cameron McEwen: to the problems of identifying them in the first place.

[17:01] Cameron McEwen: And then he looks ahead to the problems of them being applied in economics and politics.

[17:08] Cameron McEwen: and whatever.

[17:10] Cameron McEwen: Okay,

[17:11] Cameron McEwen: good.

[17:11] Cameron McEwen: So once we have that pattern,

[17:14] Cameron McEwen: then you say of LaRouche,

[17:17] Cameron McEwen: well,

[17:17] Cameron McEwen: he understood better than McLuhan did what these problems of management are.

[17:23] Cameron McEwen: And I say,

[17:23] Cameron McEwen: yeah,

[17:24] Cameron McEwen: I think that's right.

[17:25] Cameron McEwen: So what we can do in terms of the diagram we were just thinking of in terms of McLuhan is we can say that looking into the future,

[17:35] Cameron McEwen: LaRouche identifies

[17:38] Cameron McEwen: problems of application,

[17:40] Cameron McEwen: problems in economics and problems in politics that need to be taken into account in thinking about the one set of problems generated

[17:56] Cameron McEwen: by the McLuhan diagram.

[17:59] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[17:59] Cameron McEwen: Then you talk about Thompson.

[18:00] Cameron McEwen: You say,

[18:01] Cameron McEwen: well,

[18:01] Cameron McEwen: it's a kind of Buddhistic outlook.

[18:04] Cameron McEwen: And there you can say well

[18:08] Cameron McEwen: There are these patterns,

[18:09] Cameron McEwen: and those patterns not only have implications as regards education and how they would come to be learned,

[18:18] Cameron McEwen: and not only have problems in terms of their application throughout society,

[18:22] Cameron McEwen: but they have metaphysical implications.

[18:26] Cameron McEwen: And we have to begin to understand in a way that

[18:33] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan either didn't have time for or didn't have interest in or something.

[18:37] Cameron McEwen: We have to understand better what the metaphysical implications are.

[18:44] Cameron McEwen: And this goes towards the Catholic side of

[18:47] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan and goes to the Buddhist side of Thompson.

[18:52] Cameron McEwen: And there the question is,

[18:55] Cameron McEwen: what is the self-understanding of media?

[18:59] Cameron McEwen: You could say it's like meta-chemistry as opposed to how chemistry gets learned in the first place.

[19:07] Cameron McEwen: and how chemistry gets applied throughout society,

[19:10] Cameron McEwen: there's the question of how these physical structures are to be understood at the highest possible level,

[19:25] Cameron McEwen: including questions of the Big Bang and the inflation after the Big Bang and all that sort of stuff.

[19:33] Cameron McEwen: So there I would again see Thompson.

[19:36] Cameron McEwen: in relation to the diagram.

[19:37] Cameron McEwen: And then you say,

[19:38] Cameron McEwen: well,

[19:38] Cameron McEwen: Kroker is an anarchist,

[19:41] Cameron McEwen: and that's probably right.

[19:44] Cameron McEwen: So where

[19:48] Cameron McEwen: Kroker might be associated with the McLuhan diagram we drew is by saying,

[19:55] Cameron McEwen: well,

[19:55] Cameron McEwen: both at the level of the,

[19:57] Cameron McEwen: no,

[19:58] Cameron McEwen: at all levels,

[19:59] Cameron McEwen: at the level of learning,

[20:01] Cameron McEwen: at the level of application,

[20:03] Cameron McEwen: and at the level of...

[20:05] Cameron McEwen: a higher understanding of these structures.

[20:09] Cameron McEwen: there is a kind of implosion that goes on.

[20:14] Cameron McEwen: So there's no understanding of the structures by the individual without a kind of implosion in that individual because the individual is always going to come to the learning of the structures

[20:29] Cameron McEwen: from some other structure,

[20:31] Cameron McEwen: right?

[20:32] Cameron McEwen: There's no such thing as anything in the world that is chemical and there's no such thing in the interior landscape.

[20:40] Cameron McEwen: that isn't already media.

[20:43] Cameron McEwen: So unless media implode on the way to understanding media,

[20:50] Cameron McEwen: then you're never going to get there.

[20:54] Cameron McEwen: There's a necessary implosion.

[20:56] Cameron McEwen: There's a necessary descent like Dante makes from being lost in the woods

[21:08] Cameron McEwen: The

[21:09] Cameron McEwen: understanding goes through this somersault,

[21:12] Cameron McEwen: then it's never going to understand itself.

[21:15] Cameron McEwen: And then at the higher level,

[21:17] Cameron McEwen: the same thing occurs.

[21:19] Cameron McEwen: Unless the Big Bang and black holes and all of the difficulties of understanding the interrelationship of the media forms,

[21:33] Cameron McEwen: unless those difficulties are encountered,

[21:36] Cameron McEwen: then there's no real understanding going on.

[21:39] Cameron McEwen: Similarly with the application.

[21:41] Cameron McEwen: And so to my mind,

[21:43] Cameron McEwen: what that does is it situates the four people in relationship to each other,

[21:49] Cameron McEwen: but it does so in terms of an underlying structure where I find

[21:58] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan more informative than the others in the sense that they all get situated.

[22:08] Cameron McEwen: in terms of something he put his finger on,

[22:10] Cameron McEwen: but the others didn't.

[22:13] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[22:17] Bob Dobbs: The chart is based on the content of my book,

[22:20] Bob Dobbs: Fatic Communion with Bob Dobbs,

[22:22] Bob Dobbs: where I have a whole section,

[22:26] Bob Dobbs: the better quotes from LaRouche,

[22:28] Bob Dobbs: the better quotes from McLuhan,

[22:30] Bob Dobbs: in my opinion,

[22:31] Bob Dobbs: and Thompson and Kroker,

[22:33] Bob Dobbs: and then a transcript of the kind of stuff I said on the radio.

[22:38] Bob Dobbs: Toronto.

[22:40] Bob Dobbs: So I showed this book to Thompson.

[22:42] Bob Dobbs: I gave him a copy and he got back to me and he says,

[22:45] Bob Dobbs: Bob,

[22:46] Bob Dobbs: they're all the same.

[22:50] Bob Dobbs: And he couldn't see how he was different from the quotes that he was different from Kroker,

[22:56] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan and

[22:59] Bob Dobbs: LaRouche.

[23:00] Bob Dobbs: It was a crazy response.

[23:02] Bob Dobbs: Bob,

[23:02] Bob Dobbs: he's kind of complained.

[23:03] Bob Dobbs: This is just all the same stuff.

[23:07] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[23:08] Bob Dobbs: He's the only guy.

[23:09] Bob Dobbs: Kroker never commented on the book.

[23:11] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan was dead and LaRouche was in jail.

[23:15] Cameron McEwen: Right,

[23:16] Cameron McEwen: right.

[23:16] Cameron McEwen: So notice how Thompson's reply is already in the book,

[23:24] Cameron McEwen: right?

[23:25] Cameron McEwen: It's an interesting reply in that basically what he's saying is,

[23:30] Cameron McEwen: well,

[23:31] Cameron McEwen: I'm a Buddhist and I believe that everything at the end of the day All right.

[23:36] Cameron McEwen: is all one and...

[23:40] Cameron McEwen: All Maya.

[23:42] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[23:42] Cameron McEwen: exactly.

[23:43] Cameron McEwen: There's Maya and then there's beyond Maya.

[23:44] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[23:45] Cameron McEwen: So it's all one.

[23:47] Cameron McEwen: And so then he says,

[23:49] Cameron McEwen: and my impression of your book is that it's all part of the one.

[23:53] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[23:54] Cameron McEwen: I mean...

[23:55] Bob Dobbs: Good point.

[23:56] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[23:56] Cameron McEwen: come on.

[23:58] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[23:58] Bob Dobbs: I guess that was a Buddhist response.

[23:59] Bob Dobbs: He fooled me by saying they're all the same.

[24:02] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[24:02] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[24:04] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[24:05] Bob Dobbs: Then...

[24:06] Bob Dobbs: I'm also,

[24:07] Bob Dobbs: because it's the Android meme and not really my personal subjective projection,

[24:13] Bob Dobbs: I take what I call the Madison Avenue version of McLuhan.

[24:18] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[24:18] Bob Dobbs: he's a guy who said we live in a global village and he had a crazy notion that medium is the message.

[24:25] Bob Dobbs: So I would take the most cliche aspects of McLuhan,

[24:30] Bob Dobbs: and that would be part of the McLuhan quadrant,

[24:31] Bob Dobbs: and the most aspects of LaRouche,

[24:33] Bob Dobbs: all LaRouche is what it was.

[24:35] Bob Dobbs: that they say.

[24:35] Bob Dobbs: He's a paranoid anti-Semite.

[24:38] Bob Dobbs: That would be the Madison Avenue version of LaRouche.

[24:41] Bob Dobbs: Thompson's a New Age flake trying to do yoga.

[24:46] Bob Dobbs: Kroker is ridiculous.

[24:47] Bob Dobbs: You can't understand him.

[24:49] Bob Dobbs: We don't know what Kroker's talking about.

[24:52] Bob Dobbs: So those were aspects of it too.

[24:55] Bob Dobbs: So I'm having a...

[24:57] Bob Dobbs: If you want to really understand

[25:00] Bob Dobbs: Kroker and read his books,

[25:02] Bob Dobbs: I'm there to respond to that level.

[25:04] Bob Dobbs: but I also include the level of general public ignorance and cliches.

[25:11] Bob Dobbs: So you've got...

[25:12] Bob Dobbs: Those two aspects are swirling around here,

[25:16] Bob Dobbs: because I'm kind of trying to include every possible human response in this.

[25:23] Cameron McEwen: But when you say,

[25:24] Cameron McEwen: I'm trying,

[25:27] Cameron McEwen: there's something else going on,

[25:28] Cameron McEwen: right?

[25:28] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[25:29] Cameron McEwen: you said it's not really me,

[25:30] Cameron McEwen: it's the Android meme.

[25:32] Cameron McEwen: So when you say,

[25:35] Cameron McEwen: I'm trying,

[25:35] Cameron McEwen: really what you're...

[25:36] Bob Dobbs: I'd say the Android meme is trying,

[25:38] Cameron McEwen: I should say it that way.

[25:41] Cameron McEwen: But you're...

[25:41] Cameron McEwen: You were also involved,

[25:42] Cameron McEwen: so there's a kind of hiccup going on where you're trying.

[25:51] Bob Dobbs: I'm in the cul-de-sac,

[25:52] Bob Dobbs: man.

[25:53] Bob Dobbs: It's hard to get out of it.

[25:56] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[25:58] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[25:58] Cameron McEwen: so,

[25:59] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[25:59] Cameron McEwen: that relates back,

[26:02] Cameron McEwen: I don't know,

[26:02] Cameron McEwen: 15 or 14 conversations back,

[26:06] Bob Dobbs: right?

[26:06] Cameron McEwen: So we know that that's a very interesting topic.

[26:11] Cameron McEwen: to me.

[26:12] Cameron McEwen: Let's just follow up this for a minute.

[26:15] Cameron McEwen: The

[26:16] Cameron McEwen: Android meme is generating memes.

[26:26] Cameron McEwen: That's what it or he or she or they is all about.

[26:32] Bob Dobbs: I accidentally predicted what the kids live like now.

[26:38] Bob Dobbs: I hear people talk about their

[26:40] Bob Dobbs: They're millennial or younger kids,

[26:42] Bob Dobbs: and they're all talking memes.

[26:44] Bob Dobbs: They think they're communicating memes.

[26:46] Bob Dobbs: And this person said,

[26:47] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[26:48] Bob Dobbs: that's not the original meaning of meme.

[26:49] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if that's true or not,

[26:50] Bob Dobbs: but that's what he said.

[26:51] Bob Dobbs: He said they've mutated it.

[26:53] Bob Dobbs: And I think I was saying this a couple times in the past 15 sessions,

[26:59] Bob Dobbs: that my terms won,

[27:01] Bob Dobbs: at least in this time,

[27:04] Bob Dobbs: in this generation,

[27:05] Bob Dobbs: right?

[27:06] Bob Dobbs: They don't say...

[27:07] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[27:08] Bob Dobbs: we've got this virtual reality and that virtual reality,

[27:11] Bob Dobbs: or this cyberspace or that.

[27:13] Bob Dobbs: They say,

[27:13] Bob Dobbs: here comes another meme.

[27:16] Bob Dobbs: So the word,

[27:17] Bob Dobbs: and it's an automatic technological process.

[27:19] Bob Dobbs: It has nothing to do with humans.

[27:21] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[27:21] Bob Dobbs: they think they're being talked to,

[27:23] Bob Dobbs: but I say the Android meme is not talking to humans.

[27:26] Bob Dobbs: It's extending itself within itself.

[27:29] Cameron McEwen: Okay.

[27:30] Cameron McEwen: So let's

[27:34] Cameron McEwen: I understand what you're saying there,

[27:35] Cameron McEwen: but what I don't understand

[27:38] Cameron McEwen: is this use of the word I'm trying in relationship to you on the one hand and the Android meme on the other.

[27:52] Cameron McEwen: It seems to me that there's this kind of hiccup where

[27:56] Cameron McEwen: Bob is trying to,

[28:00] Cameron McEwen: I don't know,

[28:00] Cameron McEwen: mimic or to instantiate or to listen to or to reproduce or something like that.

[28:07] Cameron McEwen: The Android meme,

[28:08] Cameron McEwen: which in turn is trying to do something.

[28:12] Cameron McEwen: And the

[28:13] Cameron McEwen: Android meme's intentionality is difficult to understand in terms of its singularity or plurality.

[28:25] Cameron McEwen: It needs to be inherently plural,

[28:27] Cameron McEwen: in which case it's difficult to understand intentionality.

[28:32] Cameron McEwen: Or it's not hard to understand plural intentionalities.

[28:37] Cameron McEwen: But once you have plural intentionalities,

[28:41] Cameron McEwen: then it's difficult to understand the Android meme's singularity.

[28:48] Cameron McEwen: How can there be a kind of singular intentionality that is fragmented explosively into different intentionalities?

[29:01] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[29:01] Bob Dobbs: you know the fractal image where you...

[29:04] Bob Dobbs: see the repeating pattern,

[29:06] Bob Dobbs: but in between the showing of the completed pattern,

[29:11] Bob Dobbs: which is repeated,

[29:12] Bob Dobbs: there's this weird difference of image.

[29:18] Bob Dobbs: So I call that the interval of fragmentation,

[29:21] Bob Dobbs: and then it comes back to the same image,

[29:24] Bob Dobbs: the same shoreline or something.

[29:28] Cameron McEwen: That's what McLuhan calls inclusivity.

[29:32] Bob Dobbs: Right,

[29:33] Bob Dobbs: and that shows

[29:36] Bob Dobbs: an aspect of the Android meme.

[29:39] Bob Dobbs: It became a popular image,

[29:40] Bob Dobbs: the fractal.

[29:43] Bob Dobbs: That's a result of human embedment in their technologies.

[29:51] Bob Dobbs: The technologies communicate back the thought frame they're going to have,

[29:56] Bob Dobbs: like Newton's universe as a clock or something.

[30:01] Bob Dobbs: That's part of McLuhan's ideas.

[30:04] Bob Dobbs: that the mental images that the tribe comes up with are reflected from the apparatus.

[30:12] Bob Dobbs: So

[30:13] Bob Dobbs: I'm trying to show...

[30:14] Bob Dobbs: that this is an incredible apparatus we're living in now,

[30:17] Bob Dobbs: and every institutional attempt to control it or understand it or preserve it or overcome it is a failure.

[30:29] Bob Dobbs: That's why I have each quadrant is a

[30:32] Bob Dobbs: Shakespeare tragedy,

[30:33] Bob Dobbs: except for my quadrant,

[30:35] Bob Dobbs: where I'm not a tragedy.

[30:37] Bob Dobbs: I'm the play Henry V,

[30:38] Bob Dobbs: the play that celebrates...

[30:43] Bob Dobbs: reasonably successful life,

[30:45] Bob Dobbs: but also includes Prospero from The Tempest.

[30:52] Bob Dobbs: So

[30:55] Bob Dobbs: I'm saying that if you get my chart,

[30:58] Bob Dobbs: in other words,

[30:59] Bob Dobbs: Bob's presentation,

[31:00] Bob Dobbs: Bob's formula,

[31:02] Bob Dobbs: you have a chance of survival.

[31:07] Bob Dobbs: So,

[31:08] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[31:09] Bob Dobbs: it's a pretty ambitious intention of me.

[31:13] Bob Dobbs: And then,

[31:14] Bob Dobbs: but I would say it gets real complicated because the Android meme pretends to do that for you,

[31:22] Bob Dobbs: for us.

[31:24] Cameron McEwen: Okay.

[31:26] Cameron McEwen: You see,

[31:26] Cameron McEwen: when you say the Android meme pretends,

[31:30] Cameron McEwen: obviously I can understand the words.

[31:33] Cameron McEwen: But it's,

[31:34] Cameron McEwen: as I said before,

[31:35] Cameron McEwen: it's difficult to understand that intentionality.

[31:39] Cameron McEwen: It's difficult to understand that in terms of.

[31:42] Cameron McEwen: your intentionality,

[31:43] Cameron McEwen: what the relationship is between the two of those.

[31:48] Cameron McEwen: And it's difficult to understand that singular intentionality of the Android meme when a meme is never singular.

[31:59] Cameron McEwen: It's inherently plural.

[32:03] Cameron McEwen: So are you saying that common to the...

[32:11] Cameron McEwen: Android meme intentionality is plural.

[32:17] Cameron McEwen: There is a kind of cloaking intentionality common to them all.

[32:31] Bob Dobbs: Maybe common to them all,

[32:32] Bob Dobbs: but remember,

[32:33] Bob Dobbs: the radio quadrant is paranoia.

[32:37] Bob Dobbs: So I've got emotions,

[32:40] Bob Dobbs: weird states.

[32:41] Bob Dobbs: Paranoia,

[32:41] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan's schizophrenia.

[32:42] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[32:44] Cameron McEwen: But again,

[32:45] Cameron McEwen: that complicates intentionality.

[32:47] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[32:49] Bob Dobbs: And what's Thompson is hysteria,

[32:52] Bob Dobbs: Kroker is panic,

[32:53] Bob Dobbs: and Dobbs is ecstasy.

[32:56] Bob Dobbs: To the degree that ecstasy is an epiphany or an epiphany is a good feeling,

[33:04] Bob Dobbs: I'm putting myself into,

[33:05] Bob Dobbs: well,

[33:05] Bob Dobbs: I'm the guy that you can bypass the other quadrants.

[33:10] Bob Dobbs: biases.

[33:12] Cameron McEwen: So let's look at if we think about the etymology of ecstasy,

[33:18] Cameron McEwen: right?

[33:19] Cameron McEwen: The ex,

[33:21] Cameron McEwen: the going out from,

[33:24] Cameron McEwen: and then the stasi is related to static or to standing.

[33:30] Cameron McEwen: And so ecstatic is to go out from a place.

[33:36] Cameron McEwen: Ecstasis is actually closely related to

[33:40] Cameron McEwen: existence,

[33:41] Cameron McEwen: right?

[33:42] Cameron McEwen: It has to do with the state of existence itself that is excitable,

[33:54] Cameron McEwen: right?

[33:55] Cameron McEwen: There's something about existence that's always already outside of itself,

[34:02] Cameron McEwen: right?

[34:02] Cameron McEwen: So in Indo-European languages,

[34:05] Cameron McEwen: the whole concept of being has to do with the state of existence.

[34:09] Cameron McEwen: to do with this inherent excitability,

[34:13] Cameron McEwen: this growth,

[34:15] Cameron McEwen: you could say,

[34:16] Cameron McEwen: that can be seen from plants or even the crystallization of minerals or something up to mind,

[34:27] Cameron McEwen: where everything is always kind of leaping out of itself.

[34:33] Cameron McEwen: And it's this leaping out of itself that is...

[34:39] Cameron McEwen: the answer to what is existence or what is being.

[34:44] Cameron McEwen: And the strange thing about existence is that it not only leaps out of itself as and into life,

[34:54] Cameron McEwen: it also leaps out of itself from life,

[34:57] Cameron McEwen: and so death.

[35:00] Cameron McEwen: So if we think about this in terms of the sort of diagram that we had of

[35:07] Cameron McEwen: the relationship of

[35:09] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan and the other three guys,

[35:11] Cameron McEwen: where,

[35:12] Cameron McEwen: at least in my interpretation,

[35:14] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan kind of identified what they all were.

[35:18] Cameron McEwen: dealing with in a certain way.

[35:20] Cameron McEwen: If we try to relate what you're doing to that chart,

[35:25] Cameron McEwen: it seems to me that you're saying that you have a way of dealing with the problems that

[35:41] Cameron McEwen: are inherent to those dynamic media forms.

[35:48] Cameron McEwen: there's a problem of education how are they to be learned when there's an inherent somersault involved how are they to be applied slash managed in the future to

[36:05] Cameron McEwen: economic,

[36:06] Cameron McEwen: political war and peace etc terms and then at the higher level how are they to be sort of self understood Good.

[36:17] Cameron McEwen: And LaRouche and Kroker and

[36:20] Cameron McEwen: Thompson, at least my interpretation,

[36:22] Cameron McEwen: can be seen as specializing in different aspects of those problems.

[36:30] Cameron McEwen: So then if there is a fifth figure in all this that seems to be sort of going back and forth between

[36:43] Cameron McEwen: Bob Dobbs and the Android meme,

[36:46] Cameron McEwen: And it's never clear if this is a singular identity or multiple identities,

[36:52] Cameron McEwen: and that applies both to the Bob side and to the Android Beam side,

[36:57] Cameron McEwen: that there seems to be a fifth take on this dynamic figure.

[37:07] Cameron McEwen: So maybe what you could do is you could talk a little bit about how the...

[37:16] Cameron McEwen: How you see those aspects being either clarified or conceived in a new way that

[37:30] Cameron McEwen: allows their solution.

[37:33] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[37:34] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[37:34] Bob Dobbs: So,

[37:41] Bob Dobbs: I'm going to say something about each one of them.

[37:48] Bob Dobbs: Funny,

[37:49] Bob Dobbs: you say,

[37:50] Bob Dobbs: oh,

[37:51] Bob Dobbs: that reminded me.

[37:54] Bob Dobbs: So many thoughts that I'll get a thought,

[37:57] Bob Dobbs: and so I want to say that,

[37:58] Bob Dobbs: but then it gets bumped out by something else.

[38:02] Bob Dobbs: The original,

[38:04] Bob Dobbs: one of the original purposes was to overwhelm the viewer,

[38:10] Bob Dobbs: because this is what the typical cliche,

[38:13] Bob Dobbs: we live in a world of information overload.

[38:16] Bob Dobbs: and

[38:16] Bob Dobbs: Then I wanted to say,

[38:17] Bob Dobbs: well,

[38:18] Bob Dobbs: it's actually organized.

[38:20] Bob Dobbs: And if you figured out some kind of structures,

[38:24] Bob Dobbs: you wouldn't be so overwhelming.

[38:26] Bob Dobbs: So the idea was to start to know.

[38:28] Bob Dobbs: You'd have to read McLuhan and Thompson and other things.

[38:34] Bob Dobbs: You have to become almost a polymath.

[38:36] Bob Dobbs: You have to do your homework to be able to overcome the Android meme.

[38:42] Bob Dobbs: But at the same time,

[38:45] Bob Dobbs: I'm trying to save time.

[38:47] Bob Dobbs: So,

[38:48] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[38:49] Bob Dobbs: statements that McLuhan made about education were in my mind.

[38:53] Bob Dobbs: So on the educational level,

[38:56] Bob Dobbs: the pedagogical level,

[38:59] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan might dominate that.

[39:02] Bob Dobbs: But LaRouche had a lot to say about that,

[39:04] Bob Dobbs: but not so much Kroker and Thompson.

[39:07] Bob Dobbs: They didn't talk about how to deal with the students too much.

[39:13] Bob Dobbs: So

[39:15] Bob Dobbs: I'm the problems McLuhan came up with how to do how to save the student time how to get them to see some patterns how to get them to note that culture is traditional culture is relevant the way they think comic books are relevant so

[39:34] Bob Dobbs: all those issues but they're always undermined under Android meme conditions by the Android meme so it's an obituary it's

[39:44] Bob Dobbs: It's a,

[39:45] Bob Dobbs: what McLuhan would call,

[39:46] Bob Dobbs: it's forensic.

[39:48] Bob Dobbs: It's an analysis of the corpse.

[39:51] Bob Dobbs: But what is the corpse?

[39:52] Bob Dobbs: So I have consciousness in the LaRouche quadrant,

[39:57] Bob Dobbs: and I've got Orphic Baroque spirals.

[39:59] Bob Dobbs: Sorry,

[40:00] Bob Dobbs: I've got God,

[40:02] Bob Dobbs: whatever that is,

[40:03] Bob Dobbs: as a concept,

[40:04] Bob Dobbs: but a concept,

[40:05] Bob Dobbs: I guess,

[40:06] Bob Dobbs: or a percept.

[40:07] Bob Dobbs: It's illustrated within the LaRouche quadrant as God is dead.

[40:12] Bob Dobbs: So I had a...

[40:14] Bob Dobbs: A scream in the street about God and then

[40:18] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan about sex.

[40:19] Bob Dobbs: If it feels good,

[40:20] Bob Dobbs: do it.

[40:21] Bob Dobbs: Politics.

[40:22] Bob Dobbs: The whole world is watching.

[40:26] Bob Dobbs: Consciousness in the Kroker quadrant.

[40:28] Bob Dobbs: Staying alive,

[40:30] Bob Dobbs: which is a reference to that disco movie by

[40:33] Bob Dobbs: John...

[40:35] Bob Dobbs: Oh yeah,

[40:35] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan called them...

[40:36] Bob Dobbs: I'm remembering the name by remembering what McLuhan called the revolta.

[40:41] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[40:41] Bob Dobbs: that's John...

[40:42] Bob Dobbs: Travolta,

[40:44] Bob Dobbs: Staying Alive.

[40:45] Bob Dobbs: And then in the Dobbs quadrant,

[40:51] Bob Dobbs: it's quoting a Saturday Night Live skit with Julia Child,

[40:55] Bob Dobbs: the famous chef.

[40:58] Bob Dobbs: And they,

[40:59] Bob Dobbs: in the skit,

[41:00] Bob Dobbs: have her going,

[41:01] Bob Dobbs: in the skit,

[41:01] Bob Dobbs: saying,

[41:02] Bob Dobbs: Save the kidney

[41:04] Bob Dobbs: Now, I know I've said this stuff in previous hours.

[41:08] Bob Dobbs: So,

[41:09] Bob Dobbs: again,

[41:10] Bob Dobbs: I'm repeating myself,

[41:11] Bob Dobbs: but...

[41:13] Bob Dobbs: I may not know how to go beyond the basic themes as I repeat.

[41:18] Bob Dobbs: So,

[41:19] Bob Dobbs: God,

[41:20] Bob Dobbs: sex,

[41:20] Bob Dobbs: politics,

[41:21] Bob Dobbs: consciousness,

[41:22] Bob Dobbs: and Norfolk-Burroughs spirals,

[41:26] Bob Dobbs: the spiraling of each one of these quadrants is what the Dobbs quadrant is supposed to show you,

[41:33] Bob Dobbs: because Dobbs is the underlying structure.

[41:37] Bob Dobbs: So,

[41:37] Bob Dobbs: I'm trying to show information overload.

[41:39] Bob Dobbs: Trying to show that what appears to be information overload can have a recognizable order,

[41:46] Bob Dobbs: almost simplistic repeating order,

[41:49] Bob Dobbs: and it's also going to some evolution or some breakthrough.

[41:55] Bob Dobbs: What do they call that?

[41:57] Bob Dobbs: Teleology.

[41:58] Bob Dobbs: What is that philosophy?

[41:59] Cameron McEwen: Teleology.

[42:00] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[42:00] Bob Dobbs: teleology.

[42:03] Cameron McEwen: Telos means a goal in Greek.

[42:07] Bob Dobbs: Right,

[42:07] Bob Dobbs: right.

[42:07] Bob Dobbs: A purpose.

[42:08] Bob Dobbs: or singularity.

[42:10] Bob Dobbs: So

[42:11] Bob Dobbs: I'm trying to predict what's actually coming in the new technologies based on Carolyn's experience with this

[42:19] Bob Dobbs: AIDS breakthrough,

[42:21] Bob Dobbs: which was such a breakthrough,

[42:22] Bob Dobbs: society couldn't recognize it,

[42:24] Bob Dobbs: couldn't adopt it.

[42:26] Bob Dobbs: And then there's all those problems,

[42:28] Bob Dobbs: management problems on that level of,

[42:30] Bob Dobbs: no,

[42:31] Bob Dobbs: that put too many people out of work.

[42:32] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[42:33] Bob Dobbs: we can't bring it in that fast.

[42:36] Bob Dobbs: So...

[42:37] Cameron McEwen: Just.

[42:38] Cameron McEwen: One quick question.

[42:39] Cameron McEwen: I don't want to break your thought,

[42:41] Cameron McEwen: but when we were talking about telos,

[42:46] Cameron McEwen: you said,

[42:47] Cameron McEwen: okay,

[42:48] Cameron McEwen: yeah,

[42:48] Cameron McEwen: that's the goal,

[42:49] Cameron McEwen: that's the purpose,

[42:50] Cameron McEwen: and then you used a word

[42:52] Cameron McEwen: I didn't understand,

[42:53] Cameron McEwen: but it could have been singularity.

[42:55] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[42:55] Bob Dobbs: I said singularity.

[42:56] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[42:58] Cameron McEwen: okay.

[42:58] Bob Dobbs: Some kind of dramatic.

[43:00] Cameron McEwen: That's fine.

[43:01] Bob Dobbs: But what is that?

[43:02] Bob Dobbs: Isn't there a philosophy that doesn't use the word?

[43:07] Bob Dobbs: Telling teleology,

[43:09] Bob Dobbs: but means that they're trying to think

[43:13] Bob Dobbs: What was that?

[43:14] Bob Dobbs: I used to

[43:15] Bob Dobbs: I thought am I thinking back in the

[43:17] Bob Dobbs: 80s and 90s?

[43:18] Bob Dobbs: I used to see the term

[43:20] Bob Dobbs: It's teleology

[43:22] Bob Dobbs: Almost a cult people.

[43:25] Cameron McEwen: No,

[43:25] Cameron McEwen: no,

[43:26] Cameron McEwen: no.

[43:26] Cameron McEwen: No.

[43:26] Cameron McEwen: Yes

[43:27] Cameron McEwen: Teleology is more like theology or something.

[43:34] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[43:35] Bob Dobbs: oh that was it

[43:36] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[43:36] Bob Dobbs: cosmogenesis or something.

[43:38] Bob Dobbs: Answer-pogenesis.

[43:40] Bob Dobbs: You ever heard of that?

[43:42] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[43:42] Cameron McEwen: sure.

[43:43] Cameron McEwen: But those are one understanding of teleology.

[43:48] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[43:48] Cameron McEwen: Teleology is like theology in that there's a thousand possible theologies,

[43:55] Cameron McEwen: and there's a thousand possible teleologies.

[43:58] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[44:00] Bob Dobbs: And so one of them is...

[44:03] Bob Dobbs: I think it's anthropogenesis or something.

[44:05] Bob Dobbs: That's the movement that the universe is for man,

[44:10] Bob Dobbs: for humans.

[44:12] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[44:14] Cameron McEwen: or even that it itself is human.

[44:20] Bob Dobbs: Is what?

[44:21] Bob Dobbs: Is human.

[44:21] Cameron McEwen: Human.

[44:22] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[44:23] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[44:23] Bob Dobbs: So,

[44:26] Bob Dobbs: but,

[44:28] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[44:29] Bob Dobbs: the extension of the planet through the...

[44:32] Bob Dobbs: satellite made humans identify with animals because they both were mammalian content in a new as he says in war and peace in gold village a new super terrestrium what was this phrase super macro cosmic

[44:50] Bob Dobbs: something page 190 if you have war and peace there macro canubium you remember that he ends the book with the phrase the word canubium yeah

[45:02] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[45:02] Bob Dobbs: so it's a pretty dramatic statement on the last page.

[45:06] Bob Dobbs: So the reason people...

[45:10] Bob Dobbs: Beg your pardon?

[45:11] Cameron McEwen: I was just going to say it's a vision of inclusiveness.

[45:16] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[45:17] Bob Dobbs: And so the result of the satellite,

[45:20] Bob Dobbs: he would first say it brought in ecology,

[45:23] Bob Dobbs: but one of the dramatic effects was people really started worrying about seals and whales and animals and preservation of nature because there was a new sympathy between all of nature,

[45:38] Bob Dobbs: moving nature,

[45:39] Bob Dobbs: walking around nature.

[45:42] Bob Dobbs: inside this new weird situation of the satellite extending the planet.

[45:47] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[45:48] Cameron McEwen: But that's just one meme,

[45:50] Cameron McEwen: right?

[45:51] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[45:51] Cameron McEwen: There's all sorts of other memes that are competing with that.

[45:54] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[45:56] Bob Dobbs: But the new meme came in.

[45:58] Bob Dobbs: It was like a new one due to the satellites.

[46:03] Bob Dobbs: It added a new wrinkle.

[46:05] Bob Dobbs: And people,

[46:07] Bob Dobbs: they would argue over what you would kill to eat.

[46:11] Bob Dobbs: And,

[46:12] Bob Dobbs: but yes,

[46:13] Bob Dobbs: there was other kinds of interpretations.

[46:16] Bob Dobbs: So it's almost like I'm presenting the only news report.

[46:22] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[46:23] Bob Dobbs: We don't need to listen to the news every day.

[46:26] Bob Dobbs: We're going to do it once.

[46:27] Bob Dobbs: And we're going to focus on Bob's news report.

[46:29] Cameron McEwen: I'm going to read you what

[46:31] Cameron McEwen: Ion had to say at this.

[46:34] Cameron McEwen: This is at the very start of his last.

[46:39] Cameron McEwen: go around about the Book of the Dead.

[46:41] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[46:41] Cameron McEwen: great.

[46:43] Cameron McEwen: I'll read you what I am says.

[46:46] Cameron McEwen: But remind me that I want to come back to the question of whether in your last

[46:56] Cameron McEwen: I don't know in your last series of explanations,

[47:01] Cameron McEwen: if you actually said anything that went to my question.

[47:07] Cameron McEwen: Because I I...

[47:08] Cameron McEwen: I think that you didn't.

[47:10] Bob Dobbs: I never get to the question.

[47:13] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[47:14] Cameron McEwen: So here's Ion.

[47:15] Cameron McEwen: He says,

[47:18] Cameron McEwen: the thing that comes into play here that you all are judged by is you all are trying to play this time thing.

[47:25] Cameron McEwen: The craziest thing we've ever seen.

[47:28] Cameron McEwen: I don't know how.

[47:29] Cameron McEwen: You can't prove it.

[47:30] Cameron McEwen: You can't validate it.

[47:31] Cameron McEwen: You can't market it.

[47:32] Cameron McEwen: It keeps changing.

[47:33] Cameron McEwen: It keeps slipping.

[47:34] Cameron McEwen: No day is the same length of time,

[47:36] Cameron McEwen: no year is the same length of circle,

[47:39] Cameron McEwen: it's insidious.

[47:40] Cameron McEwen: Some days are fast,

[47:41] Cameron McEwen: some days are slow.

[47:43] Cameron McEwen: Christmas comes but once a year and it's slow as molasses.

[47:48] Cameron McEwen: And then trouble comes so fast you can't get out of it until you're right back into it.

[47:53] Cameron McEwen: It's crazy how this slippage goes back and forth.

[47:56] Cameron McEwen: It's not based on anything.

[47:59] Cameron McEwen: So you all got time against you,

[48:01] Cameron McEwen: it's not on your side.

[48:04] Cameron McEwen: So.

[48:06] Bob Dobbs: It's great to hear Ion.

[48:08] Cameron McEwen: It's very nice that you quote Ion.

[48:09] Cameron McEwen: There you go.

[48:09] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[48:10] Cameron McEwen: But

[48:11] Cameron McEwen: I take Ion there to be saying exactly what I keep objective to your,

[48:18] Cameron McEwen: what you just called your news report.

[48:20] Cameron McEwen: That is your report on something new under the sun that comes about through satellites.

[48:26] Cameron McEwen: And I say there cannot possibly be anything new under the sun because everything has its

[48:34] Cameron McEwen: genesis out of basic forms that are synchronic.

[48:40] Cameron McEwen: That is to say,

[48:42] Cameron McEwen: they're timeless compared to the time that we live,

[48:47] Cameron McEwen: but they're not timeless in lacking time.

[48:51] Cameron McEwen: They have their own time,

[48:52] Cameron McEwen: synchronic time.

[48:54] Cameron McEwen: So there can't possibly be something new that emerges because of satellites.

[49:01] Cameron McEwen: All that can happen is for...

[49:04] Cameron McEwen: existing possibilities to be energized in new ways.

[49:09] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[49:10] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[49:11] Bob Dobbs: but what is the most common perception today?

[49:15] Bob Dobbs: Oh my God,

[49:16] Bob Dobbs: we've got to get back to normal.

[49:17] Bob Dobbs: This is too new.

[49:19] Bob Dobbs: This is crazy.

[49:20] Bob Dobbs: Nobody knows what's going on anymore.

[49:22] Bob Dobbs: People think that there's a newness happening.

[49:25] Bob Dobbs: They don't like it,

[49:26] Bob Dobbs: but there's a newness.

[49:28] Bob Dobbs: Where did that come from?

[49:30] Bob Dobbs: And of course,

[49:30] Bob Dobbs: that's an effect of media.

[49:32] Bob Dobbs: Or of management,

[49:35] Bob Dobbs: the oligarchs putting out a meme that make people think this is new.

[49:39] Bob Dobbs: Or what would the Buddhists say?

[49:43] Bob Dobbs: The Buddhists say,

[49:44] Bob Dobbs: Allah is Maya.

[49:45] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[49:48] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.

[49:49] Bob Dobbs: And Kroker would take advantage of the confusion and spread anarchy.

[49:54] Bob Dobbs: Correct,

[49:55] Cameron McEwen: correct.

[49:56] Cameron McEwen: And so all of these are ways of talking about

[50:06] Cameron McEwen: situation at the level of history.

[50:10] Cameron McEwen: And of course,

[50:11] Cameron McEwen: the level of history now is very,

[50:13] Cameron McEwen: very complicated because of new media and because of atomic weapons,

[50:18] Cameron McEwen: etc,

[50:18] Cameron McEwen: etc.

[50:19] Bob Dobbs: But what's the thing?

[50:21] Bob Dobbs: You're trying to do something new there.

[50:24] Cameron McEwen: But imagine now,

[50:25] Cameron McEwen: but let's just imagine that you're in Constantinople around 1400 or something.

[50:33] Cameron McEwen: And for uh,

[50:35] Cameron McEwen: centuries,

[50:37] Cameron McEwen: you've been more or less under siege,

[50:41] Cameron McEwen: and you're constantly getting your walls bombarded by ever bigger cannons that the sultans are buying from Europe,

[50:54] Cameron McEwen: or they're manufacturing themselves.

[50:57] Cameron McEwen: And some of these cannons are so big that even if your wall is 20 feet thick,

[51:04] Cameron McEwen: which some of them were,

[51:06] Cameron McEwen: they can put a cannonball right through that,

[51:08] Bob Dobbs: right?

[51:09] Cameron McEwen: And so night and day,

[51:11] Cameron McEwen: boom,

[51:12] Cameron McEwen: boom,

[51:13] Cameron McEwen: falling walls.

[51:14] Cameron McEwen: And then you've constantly got thousands and thousands of people that are,

[51:20] Cameron McEwen: their whole lives are spent repairing walls.

[51:24] Cameron McEwen: So imagine the panic.

[51:27] Cameron McEwen: Imagine the difficulties of dealing with this,

[51:31] Cameron McEwen: right?

[51:32] Cameron McEwen: So it's not as if...

[51:34] Cameron McEwen: human anxieties are new,

[51:38] Cameron McEwen: right?

[51:40] Cameron McEwen: It's part of the memes of media,

[51:46] Cameron McEwen: media understood in a sort of naive sense as television and newspapers and all that sort of stuff and the Internet.

[51:55] Cameron McEwen: that it's part of the message of media that what's going on in the world

[52:02] Cameron McEwen: going on is new and unless you tune into what we're saying or what we're reporting today you're gonna um not understand uh what life is all about because there's something new happening right but of course at the at the deepest level uh

[52:21] Cameron McEwen: thompson is absolutely correct that no there's nothing new under the sun.

[52:27] Cameron McEwen: It's all the same.

[52:29] Cameron McEwen: Humans cannot possibly have

[52:33] Cameron McEwen: some kind of new situation because humans forever have been in extremis,

[52:44] Cameron McEwen: right?

[52:45] Cameron McEwen: To be the first hominin ancestors that we have back in Africa somewhere,

[52:54] Cameron McEwen: the only way that they were able to survive and be...

[53:02] Cameron McEwen: our ancestors,

[53:05] Cameron McEwen: was that they went through the only way that we're able to propagate who we are.

[53:12] Cameron McEwen: That is to say,

[53:14] Cameron McEwen: humans,

[53:15] Cameron McEwen: like animals,

[53:17] Cameron McEwen: exist through extreme situations of especially birth and death,

[53:24] Cameron McEwen: but also sickness and hunger and things in between.

[53:28] Cameron McEwen: And those things do not change.

[53:32] Cameron McEwen: Those things,

[53:32] Cameron McEwen: there's a baby being born is always hanging by a thread of dying.

[53:38] Cameron McEwen: And up until a certain time in history,

[53:43] Cameron McEwen: I don't know if it was 1700 or something,

[53:46] Cameron McEwen: but it was fairly late.

[53:48] Cameron McEwen: Probably the majority of children that were born did not live.

[53:55] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[53:56] Cameron McEwen: It was a terrible situation.

[53:59] Cameron McEwen: And there was no human being.

[54:01] Cameron McEwen: that did not terminate,

[54:04] Cameron McEwen: right?

[54:04] Cameron McEwen: That was built into their fate as well.

[54:08] Cameron McEwen: And so in famous considerations of what it means to be human,

[54:17] Cameron McEwen: like those of Sophocles,

[54:19] Cameron McEwen: for example,

[54:21] Cameron McEwen: it's never ever far from their thought that human beings are hanging by this thread.

[54:29] Cameron McEwen: And so this

[54:30] Cameron McEwen: This thread that can,

[54:32] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[54:33] Cameron McEwen: one of the three Greek fates is the cutter,

[54:37] Cameron McEwen: right?

[54:38] Cameron McEwen: It's the,

[54:38] Cameron McEwen: she has some scissors.

[54:42] Cameron McEwen: And as the thread is spun by the other fates,

[54:50] Cameron McEwen: she cuts it.

[54:51] Cameron McEwen: And she sometimes cuts it short and she sometimes cuts it long.

[54:56] Cameron McEwen: But every one of us is,

[54:58] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[54:59] Cameron McEwen: a threat.

[55:01] Cameron McEwen: So

[55:02] Cameron McEwen: I say that.

[55:04] Cameron McEwen: to get away from the idea that it's helpful by way of explanation about the human fate.

[55:13] Cameron McEwen: It's not helpful,

[55:14] Cameron McEwen: in my mind at least,

[55:16] Cameron McEwen: to say,

[55:16] Cameron McEwen: well,

[55:17] Cameron McEwen: the satellites did this,

[55:18] Cameron McEwen: and the biology medicine did this and that,

[55:26] Cameron McEwen: because that really doesn't answer the fundamental problems.

[55:32] Cameron McEwen: Those...

[55:33] Cameron McEwen: fundamental problems are not only seen in the difficulties of every human life,

[55:41] Cameron McEwen: but they're also seen in the practical aspects of media forms that we talked about earlier.

[55:51] Cameron McEwen: So in terms of education,

[55:53] Cameron McEwen: for example,

[55:55] Cameron McEwen: this flip that people have to go through involves a kind of

[56:04] Cameron McEwen: it involves willy-nilly.

[56:06] Cameron McEwen: Most people would never,

[56:07] Cameron McEwen: I think,

[56:08] Cameron McEwen: come to think of it in these terms.

[56:10] Cameron McEwen: But the flip that you go through in order to think about thinking appropriately has to do with this thread that we're talking about and the cutting of that thread.

[56:25] Cameron McEwen: As human beings are exposed to nothing,

[56:33] Cameron McEwen: to the no man's land,

[56:35] Cameron McEwen: as McLuhan talks about it,

[56:37] Cameron McEwen: inherently.

[56:39] Cameron McEwen: So when you were talking about the purpose of your book was both to overwhelm and to simplify.

[56:57] Cameron McEwen: You want to overwhelm with the number of memes and the extent of the memes.

[57:02] Cameron McEwen: But at the same time,

[57:03] Cameron McEwen: you want to simplify that and show the pattern.

[57:08] Cameron McEwen: It seems to me that what you're doing is you're naming the problem,

[57:13] Cameron McEwen: but you're not contributing significantly in that description to its proper naming.

[57:25] Cameron McEwen: You're failing the Rumpelstiltskin test,

[57:28] Cameron McEwen: if you want to put it that way.

[57:30] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[57:30] Bob Dobbs: but it was...

[57:32] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan,

[57:33] Bob Dobbs: the site his quadrant,

[57:34] Bob Dobbs: who said,

[57:35] Bob Dobbs: when you can name something,

[57:36] Bob Dobbs: you control it.

[57:39] Bob Dobbs: I thought this chart was a new kind of naming.

[57:42] Bob Dobbs: Does he say communication is a miracle or communication of the new is a miracle but not impossible?

[57:48] Bob Dobbs: In take today.

[57:50] Bob Dobbs: I think he says of the new.

[57:52] Bob Dobbs: Communication of the new.

[57:56] Cameron McEwen: It may be.

[57:58] Cameron McEwen: Certainly that's a

[58:01] Cameron McEwen: a fine way of describing what we've been talking about as the educational problem of this flip.

[58:08] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[58:10] Cameron McEwen: It's,

[58:11] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[58:12] Cameron McEwen: So you could say that that,

[58:15] Cameron McEwen: a minute ago

[58:16] Cameron McEwen: I was saying that inherent to that flip is a tie to this thread problem of human life,

[58:26] Cameron McEwen: of the thread of fate.

[58:30] Cameron McEwen: that overhangs every human life.

[58:34] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[58:34] Cameron McEwen: And it overhangs but also underlies,

[58:37] Cameron McEwen: right?

[58:39] Cameron McEwen: That the miracle,

[58:45] Cameron McEwen: if you will,

[58:47] Cameron McEwen: is that there can be an understanding of the new that is seen in the birth of a child.

[58:59] Cameron McEwen: And then in that child coming to speak,

[59:02] Cameron McEwen: the speaking is not something that's based on what the child knew before.

[59:09] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[59:10] Cameron McEwen: It's a spark happens.

[59:13] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[59:15] Cameron McEwen: And there's speech,

[59:17] Cameron McEwen: right?

[59:17] Cameron McEwen: Just as a spark happens and there is a child.

[59:21] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[59:21] Bob Dobbs: let me say this.

[59:23] Bob Dobbs: Note how much you've been talking tonight.

[59:25] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[59:26] Cameron McEwen: More than before,

[59:27] Bob Dobbs: I believe.

[59:28] Bob Dobbs: You set a record already.

[59:30] Bob Dobbs: We're only halfway through.

[59:34] Bob Dobbs: Later,

[59:35] Bob Dobbs: when I showed up

[59:37] Bob Dobbs: 14 years after the chart,

[59:39] Bob Dobbs: but

[59:40] Bob Dobbs: I have to add another year because I didn't know what I could do or I didn't understand what I was dealing with for another year or so.

[59:48] Bob Dobbs: So 15 years later,

[59:50] Bob Dobbs: I said,

[59:50] Bob Dobbs: wow,

[59:51] Bob Dobbs: the tiny note chart predicted,

[59:53] Bob Dobbs: well,

[59:54] Bob Dobbs: and the formula chart.

[59:55] Bob Dobbs: Predicted ion,

[59:57] Bob Dobbs: not the mere technology that Carolyn had in New York in 95.

[1:00:02] Bob Dobbs: It predicted better technologies that we were making.

[1:00:06] Bob Dobbs: So there's the whole aspect that something new did happen.

[1:00:11] Bob Dobbs: Ion and Ion is the strangest phenomenon ever.

[1:00:15] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:00:17] Bob Dobbs: we're...

[1:00:17] Cameron McEwen: But the Ion's not new,

[1:00:18] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:00:20] Bob Dobbs: What do you mean?

[1:00:20] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[1:00:20] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[1:00:21] Bob Dobbs: well...

[1:00:23] Bob Dobbs: Non-physical has never spoken to humanity like Ion says it's doing.

[1:00:30] Cameron McEwen: Okay,

[1:00:30] Cameron McEwen: but the non-physical is not new.

[1:00:34] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:00:35] Bob Dobbs: there's always been non-physical,

[1:00:36] Bob Dobbs: but what happens,

[1:00:37] Bob Dobbs: non-physical merged.

[1:00:39] Bob Dobbs: It canceled its environment,

[1:00:41] Bob Dobbs: which was called the Gaf,

[1:00:42] Bob Dobbs: the non-physical.

[1:00:44] Bob Dobbs: A big part of it was the Gaf,

[1:00:45] Bob Dobbs: a Jewish word for heaven.

[1:00:49] Bob Dobbs: And it has merged with Earth,

[1:00:52] Bob Dobbs: the great prophecies of different religions that somehow the great out there merges with the great hell of where we are.

[1:01:02] Bob Dobbs: And that's the new situation.

[1:01:04] Bob Dobbs: As a matter of fact,

[1:01:05] Bob Dobbs: Ayan just started saying this past week that grace,

[1:01:08] Bob Dobbs: has been canceled for humans.

[1:01:11] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:01:12] Bob Dobbs: that's pretty dramatic.

[1:01:14] Bob Dobbs: We all depend on grace or imagine it or make something out of it.

[1:01:18] Bob Dobbs: It ain't happening anymore.

[1:01:20] Bob Dobbs: Uh-oh,

[1:01:20] Bob Dobbs: what's that?

[1:01:21] Bob Dobbs: And I haven't explored it much,

[1:01:23] Bob Dobbs: just heard the headline.

[1:01:24] Bob Dobbs: And I will do it in a few hours because on Thursday,

[1:01:29] Bob Dobbs: I have my weekly session with Ion,

[1:01:31] Bob Dobbs: which is at least three hours.

[1:01:33] Bob Dobbs: So I'll be going into that.

[1:01:35] Cameron McEwen: You can ask him if...

[1:01:39] Cameron McEwen: grace has been cancelled,

[1:01:41] Cameron McEwen: how does that relate to what he said about time?

[1:01:45] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:01:46] Cameron McEwen: Those cancelling is inherently time.

[1:01:55] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:01:55] Bob Dobbs: that's right.

[1:01:56] Bob Dobbs: I call on that all the time.

[1:01:59] Bob Dobbs: He says,

[1:02:00] Bob Dobbs: no Bob,

[1:02:02] Bob Dobbs: we don't believe in time,

[1:02:03] Bob Dobbs: but we do accept timing.

[1:02:06] Bob Dobbs: Timing.

[1:02:09] Bob Dobbs: Think of that.

[1:02:10] Bob Dobbs: That's your dynamic symmetry of tensions among proportions.

[1:02:16] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:02:17] Cameron McEwen: so,

[1:02:18] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:02:18] Cameron McEwen: the dynamic symmetry among proportions is sort of the topic that we've been talking about all night.

[1:02:25] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:02:26] Cameron McEwen: But I don't,

[1:02:28] Cameron McEwen: personally,

[1:02:29] Cameron McEwen: I'm not able to see how you or the Android meme is...

[1:02:38] Cameron McEwen: in talking about that dynamic symmetry,

[1:02:41] Cameron McEwen: I don't see how you are going beyond ecstatically what

[1:02:48] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan already said.

[1:02:50] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:02:51] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[1:02:51] Cameron McEwen: Not only McLuhan,

[1:02:52] Cameron McEwen: but lots of other people.

[1:02:54] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:02:55] Bob Dobbs: and LaRouche and Thompson and Kroker predicted aspects of this cold breakthrough.

[1:03:02] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:03:02] Bob Dobbs: what was I going to say about Ayn?

[1:03:03] Bob Dobbs: There was another aspect.

[1:03:05] Bob Dobbs: down.

[1:03:05] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:03:05] Bob Dobbs: so if you ask Iodine...

[1:03:08] Bob Dobbs: What happened in 1863?

[1:03:11] Bob Dobbs: He says,

[1:03:11] Bob Dobbs: we don't do time,

[1:03:12] Bob Dobbs: Bob,

[1:03:12] Bob Dobbs: so it doesn't work.

[1:03:14] Bob Dobbs: So what you have to do is you go,

[1:03:16] Bob Dobbs: well,

[1:03:16] Bob Dobbs: during Queen Victoria's second half of her reign,

[1:03:22] Bob Dobbs: what was going on?

[1:03:23] Bob Dobbs: Then he'll do it.

[1:03:25] Bob Dobbs: If you name someone and a context,

[1:03:29] Bob Dobbs: then he can talk about it.

[1:03:31] Bob Dobbs: But you can't use numbers,

[1:03:33] Bob Dobbs: even though Ion says that pi has been stabilized.

[1:03:38] Bob Dobbs: I just experienced a guy talking today,

[1:03:41] Bob Dobbs: Pi 22 over 7,

[1:03:42] Bob Dobbs: and he had a whole theory of number and all that,

[1:03:45] Bob Dobbs: but he had not been informed that Pi is no longer unbalanced and infinitely going on.

[1:03:51] Bob Dobbs: It's been balanced by something that's happened.

[1:03:54] Bob Dobbs: It does include the

[1:03:57] Bob Dobbs: 26,000-year cycle,

[1:03:58] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:03:59] Bob Dobbs: that the Aztecs,

[1:04:00] Bob Dobbs: or the

[1:04:01] Bob Dobbs: Aztecs,

[1:04:02] Bob Dobbs: Incas, no,

[1:04:04] Bob Dobbs: the Mayans.

[1:04:04] Bob Dobbs: Mayans.

[1:04:05] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:04:05] Bob Dobbs: the Mayans discovered.

[1:04:08] Bob Dobbs: With Ayan,

[1:04:10] Bob Dobbs: you spiral off into a lot of different thought systems.

[1:04:13] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:04:13] Bob Dobbs: what was incredible is,

[1:04:17] Bob Dobbs: even though Ayan thinks that everybody...

[1:04:19] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[1:04:19] Bob Dobbs: I have to say this.

[1:04:20] Bob Dobbs: Ayan says,

[1:04:21] Bob Dobbs: no,

[1:04:21] Bob Dobbs: no,

[1:04:21] Bob Dobbs: many people haven't died.

[1:04:24] Bob Dobbs: We don't hear about them much.

[1:04:26] Bob Dobbs: Saint-Germain never died.

[1:04:32] Bob Dobbs: Leopold II of the Congo in the

[1:04:34] Bob Dobbs: 19th century,

[1:04:35] Bob Dobbs: his wife,

[1:04:35] Bob Dobbs: a great inventor that no one knows about,

[1:04:37] Bob Dobbs: she didn't die.

[1:04:38] Bob Dobbs: Anyways,

[1:04:39] Bob Dobbs: the point that we die,

[1:04:41] Bob Dobbs: Ion's questioning.

[1:04:43] Bob Dobbs: But then it becomes a matter of whether they accept that or not.

[1:04:46] Bob Dobbs: So a lot of new comes from Ion,

[1:04:50] Bob Dobbs: or at least stuff we haven't heard about very much.

[1:04:55] Bob Dobbs: So it turns out,

[1:04:59] Bob Dobbs: after putting up with a year of...

[1:05:02] Bob Dobbs: I am denigrating McLuhan and Kroker and LaRouche and all these people.

[1:05:06] Bob Dobbs: Why?

[1:05:07] Bob Dobbs: Because they didn't,

[1:05:08] Bob Dobbs: they died.

[1:05:09] Bob Dobbs: If you die,

[1:05:10] Bob Dobbs: you get canceled off significant person in LaRouche's reality,

[1:05:15] Bob Dobbs: I mean in Ayn's reality.

[1:05:17] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:05:18] Bob Dobbs: but what happened,

[1:05:19] Bob Dobbs: we found out a couple years into it that my tiny note chart is in the Book of Revelation.

[1:05:26] Bob Dobbs: This chart is way beyond anything we've ever heard about so far.

[1:05:31] Bob Dobbs: According to Ayn,

[1:05:32] Bob Dobbs: if Ayn's right,

[1:05:33] Bob Dobbs: it'll be unfolded over the next 10 years or so.

[1:05:36] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:05:36] Bob Dobbs: I've accomplished something amazing,

[1:05:38] Bob Dobbs: but...

[1:05:39] Bob Dobbs: I got a lot of help from angels,

[1:05:40] Bob Dobbs: Aion said.

[1:05:42] Bob Dobbs: And angels don't like humans,

[1:05:44] Bob Dobbs: so I don't know why they help me.

[1:05:47] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[1:05:47] Bob Dobbs: that brings in another factor.

[1:05:50] Bob Dobbs: Apparently,

[1:05:51] Bob Dobbs: I'm the Dark Soul.

[1:05:53] Bob Dobbs: What's the Dark Soul?

[1:05:54] Bob Dobbs: The Dark Soul is someone who is leading humans to victory over the angels in our war with the angels.

[1:06:05] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:06:05] Bob Dobbs: this wasn't said about me until last year.

[1:06:08] Bob Dobbs: couple of years,

[1:06:08] Bob Dobbs: first eight or so years,

[1:06:10] Bob Dobbs: nobody knew this.

[1:06:12] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:06:13] Bob Dobbs: I've got some crazy stuff being said to me in this situation.

[1:06:17] Bob Dobbs: And I find that the chart kind of prepares us for it,

[1:06:23] Bob Dobbs: which is interesting.

[1:06:24] Bob Dobbs: So there's a...

[1:06:26] Bob Dobbs: Go ahead.

[1:06:28] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:06:28] Cameron McEwen: let me interrupt you here.

[1:06:29] Cameron McEwen: When you talk about stuff that you find

[1:06:37] Cameron McEwen: about the chart.

[1:06:38] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:06:39] Cameron McEwen: Like tied to the Bible.

[1:06:41] Cameron McEwen: This seems to me to relate to the whole question of the chart's intentionality.

[1:06:55] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:06:56] Cameron McEwen: Because if what's going on in the chart is you kind of

[1:07:05] Cameron McEwen: the android meme or the android meme channeling you probably works both ways then the um uh then it becomes possible uh to understand uh your chart and your thinking uh as um uh

[1:07:31] Cameron McEwen: hologram yeah the

[1:07:35] Cameron McEwen: The patterns get repeated,

[1:07:38] Cameron McEwen: but they get repeated in ever new ways,

[1:07:42] Cameron McEwen: or at least in ways that haven't been recognized before.

[1:07:47] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:07:47] Bob Dobbs: Right?

[1:07:48] Cameron McEwen: So,

[1:07:51] Cameron McEwen: to me,

[1:07:52] Cameron McEwen: that says that at the level of

[1:07:56] Cameron McEwen: 1995 or 1996,

[1:08:00] Cameron McEwen: whenever it was done.

[1:08:01] Cameron McEwen: 95,

[1:08:01] Cameron McEwen: okay.

[1:08:02] Cameron McEwen: That's when it appears in the magazine.

[1:08:04] Cameron McEwen: Is that right?

[1:08:05] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:08:06] Bob Dobbs: it appears in 96,

[1:08:07] Bob Dobbs: but it was produced.

[1:08:09] Bob Dobbs: There's a video of me in

[1:08:10] Bob Dobbs: California explaining it to some people,

[1:08:13] Bob Dobbs: and that's in 95.

[1:08:15] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:08:15] Bob Dobbs: good.

[1:08:15] Cameron McEwen: So in 1995,

[1:08:20] Cameron McEwen: there is some kind of what we could say is a meta meme going on that is a kind of cloud of

[1:08:34] Cameron McEwen: other memes.

[1:08:35] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:08:36] Cameron McEwen: And it's difficult to say if this is Bob or if this is the

[1:08:41] Cameron McEwen: Android meme because the cloud has inherently a whole series of faces within it,

[1:08:54] Cameron McEwen: but because

[1:08:56] Cameron McEwen: Bob was the author in quotes of the chart

[1:09:03] Cameron McEwen: Then

[1:09:05] Cameron McEwen: Bob's face is prominent.

[1:09:08] Bob Dobbs: Did you say face?

[1:09:11] Cameron McEwen: F-A-C-E?

[1:09:13] Bob Dobbs: Bob's face?

[1:09:16] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:09:16] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:09:16] Bob Dobbs: Bob's face.

[1:09:17] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[1:09:17] Cameron McEwen: And so maybe there's Bob's face and then through

[1:09:23] Cameron McEwen: Bob's face,

[1:09:25] Cameron McEwen: then a whole bunch of other faces.

[1:09:27] Cameron McEwen: You could say it's like a prism where the light goes.

[1:09:33] Cameron McEwen: through the prism and then you see the spectrum behind it,

[1:09:38] Cameron McEwen: something like that.

[1:09:38] Cameron McEwen: But at any rate,

[1:09:38] Cameron McEwen: in 1995,

[1:09:44] Cameron McEwen: as opposed to 2010 or 2015 or 2021,

[1:09:58] Cameron McEwen: in 1995,

[1:10:01] Cameron McEwen: there's something going on that

[1:10:03] Bob Dobbs: allows the chart to manifest.

[1:10:11] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:10:12] Cameron McEwen: but

[1:10:14] Cameron McEwen: I don't like to say the manifestation in the sense of some revelation.

[1:10:21] Cameron McEwen: I would prefer to see manifestation as something that is inherently shaped,

[1:10:32] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:10:32] Cameron McEwen: The manifestation always implies manifestation of.

[1:10:38] Cameron McEwen: And so what the chart is...

[1:10:41] Cameron McEwen: like a question.

[1:10:45] Cameron McEwen: It's a manifestation of a whole bunch of stuff that can be associated with a whole bunch of different faces.

[1:10:56] Cameron McEwen: Prominent faces are McLuhan,

[1:10:59] Cameron McEwen: Kroker,

[1:11:00] Cameron McEwen: Thompson and LaRouche and Bob.

[1:11:04] Cameron McEwen: Those are prominent faces but they're only representative faces.

[1:11:09] Cameron McEwen: There's

[1:11:10] Cameron McEwen: Behind them,

[1:11:12] Cameron McEwen: and including...

[1:11:13] Cameron McEwen: Subatomic particles.

[1:11:16] Cameron McEwen: Pardon me?

[1:11:17] Bob Dobbs: Behind them,

[1:11:17] Bob Dobbs: there's subatomic particles.

[1:11:20] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:11:20] Cameron McEwen: but there's also a million other phases.

[1:11:22] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[1:11:25] Cameron McEwen: Like

[1:11:26] Cameron McEwen: Zappa, for example.

[1:11:27] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:11:28] Cameron McEwen: And then behind that,

[1:11:30] Cameron McEwen: more and more and more phases.

[1:11:31] Cameron McEwen: Okay,

[1:11:32] Cameron McEwen: so this is a manifestation.

[1:11:38] Cameron McEwen: You could say it's a manifestation of memes,

[1:11:43] Cameron McEwen: but the whole thing is a question because manifestation is inherently manifestation of something.

[1:11:54] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:11:54] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[1:11:55] Cameron McEwen: And the of something is what is,

[1:12:01] Cameron McEwen: in my mind,

[1:12:04] Cameron McEwen: the important thing that's going on.

[1:12:06] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:12:06] Cameron McEwen: That's why I kept on asking.

[1:12:08] Cameron McEwen: you in previous conversations what is it about this chart it is limited that is that that points beyond itself and I don't think you ever really

[1:12:23] Bob Dobbs: dealt with that question I'm starting to I'm starting to deal with it by bringing these other notions I haven't told you about all right that's good I'm not saying that everything should or even can be

[1:12:38] Cameron McEwen: revealed or stated in a second.

[1:12:45] Cameron McEwen: We're conducting a conversation here,

[1:12:49] Cameron McEwen: and the conversation needs to be one that is constantly trying to probe deeper but doesn't do so in some sort of airy-fairy way.

[1:13:04] Cameron McEwen: It does so by asking a specific question.

[1:13:07] Cameron McEwen: Specific questions about the use of words or about where something is added or whether or not something has been forgotten.

[1:13:17] Cameron McEwen: And in this way,

[1:13:19] Cameron McEwen: it's like going into the dark but being very sure about where you're placing your next foot.

[1:13:25] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[1:13:25] Bob Dobbs: we don't want anybody to get hurt.

[1:13:27] Bob Dobbs: But it is a kind of an initiation.

[1:13:29] Bob Dobbs: And note,

[1:13:30] Bob Dobbs: in 95,

[1:13:31] Bob Dobbs: for me,

[1:13:32] Bob Dobbs: in my understanding of the spread of computers,

[1:13:35] Bob Dobbs: Bye.

[1:13:37] Bob Dobbs: It started around 1995 with

[1:13:40] Bob Dobbs: Netscape. That's when a lot of people got on the net.

[1:13:44] Bob Dobbs: Can you say that,

[1:13:46] Bob Dobbs: 1995?

[1:13:46] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.

[1:13:47] Cameron McEwen: That's when our company went from,

[1:13:51] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[1:13:54] Cameron McEwen: we had gone through an evolution of floppy disks to CDs.

[1:14:00] Cameron McEwen: And in

[1:14:03] Cameron McEwen: 1995, 1996,

[1:14:06] Cameron McEwen: that's when we first went online.

[1:14:07] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:14:07] Bob Dobbs: would that be due to Netscape for most people?

[1:14:12] Cameron McEwen: I think so.

[1:14:13] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:14:14] Cameron McEwen: the reason that people were getting online was for the You've Got Mail phenomenon.

[1:14:21] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:14:22] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[1:14:22] Cameron McEwen: AOL.

[1:14:23] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:14:24] Bob Dobbs: So AOL and Mosaic did something in 93.

[1:14:27] Bob Dobbs: What was Mosaic?

[1:14:29] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:14:30] Cameron McEwen: I think that was an early

[1:14:32] Cameron McEwen: Google-like way of indexing.

[1:14:36] Cameron McEwen: the information that was available online.

[1:14:40] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:14:41] Bob Dobbs: So like McLuhan says,

[1:14:45] Bob Dobbs: well,

[1:14:45] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[1:14:46] Bob Dobbs: here's an interesting distinction.

[1:14:48] Bob Dobbs: I wasn't responding to the Internet.

[1:14:51] Bob Dobbs: I was responding to the environment of the Internet,

[1:14:54] Bob Dobbs: which is I and them,

[1:14:56] Bob Dobbs: which was going to come 15 years later.

[1:15:00] Bob Dobbs: What I said

[1:15:02] Cameron McEwen: When you say that something is coming 15 years later,

[1:15:05] Cameron McEwen: What you're saying is that the chart...

[1:15:10] Cameron McEwen: was limited in certain ways,

[1:15:13] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:15:13] Cameron McEwen: It's very important for us to understand.

[1:15:15] Cameron McEwen: If we want to understand how you came to an evolving understanding of your own chart,

[1:15:29] Cameron McEwen: it's necessary to understand in what ways it was limited or your understanding of it was limited so that it was possible.

[1:15:40] Cameron McEwen: for you to have new understandings.

[1:15:42] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:15:44] Bob Dobbs: And so that's what we're initiating here.

[1:15:46] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[1:15:47] Bob Dobbs: sir.

[1:15:48] Bob Dobbs: New factors.

[1:15:50] Bob Dobbs: So McLuhan would say that the famous example of Seurat,

[1:15:56] Bob Dobbs: S-E-U-R-A-T,

[1:15:57] Bob Dobbs: the French painter,

[1:15:59] Bob Dobbs: he created pointillism,

[1:16:01] Bob Dobbs: and then those points,

[1:16:03] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan said,

[1:16:04] Bob Dobbs: anticipated the

[1:16:06] Bob Dobbs: 1950s cathode ray tube

[1:16:08] Bob Dobbs: TV image.

[1:16:09] Bob Dobbs: a black and white image.

[1:16:11] Cameron McEwen: He's not speaking.

[1:16:13] Cameron McEwen: That's kind of throwaway stuff for McClellan.

[1:16:20] Cameron McEwen: It's an unthinking attempt to try to get people to look at what they're doing in a new way.

[1:16:31] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:16:33] Cameron McEwen: The poor guy,

[1:16:35] Cameron McEwen: if he tried to talk specifically,

[1:16:39] Cameron McEwen: People's eyes would just glaze over and it wouldn't mean anything.

[1:16:46] Cameron McEwen: And so he would be on TV with a million people watching and they would ask him questions and he would have to say something.

[1:16:55] Cameron McEwen: And so he would say stuff like that.

[1:16:58] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:16:59] Bob Dobbs: well,

[1:16:59] Bob Dobbs: I like that stuff.

[1:17:00] Bob Dobbs: It was fun.

[1:17:02] Bob Dobbs: He came out with good lines,

[1:17:03] Bob Dobbs: good jokes,

[1:17:05] Bob Dobbs: good patterns.

[1:17:07] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[1:17:07] Cameron McEwen: that reminds me of an important point.

[1:17:12] Cameron McEwen: Where did I...

[1:17:16] Cameron McEwen: I saw something on your site from somebody.

[1:17:23] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[1:17:24] Cameron McEwen: I know.

[1:17:24] Cameron McEwen: You had recommended a three-part discussion.

[1:17:36] Cameron McEwen: I can't remember if it's you and...

[1:17:39] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:17:40] Cameron McEwen: I think it's you interrogating

[1:17:43] Cameron McEwen: Ion, and it's a three-part series where you say that something like

[1:17:55] Cameron McEwen: Ion explaining himself or something.

[1:17:58] Cameron McEwen: I'll see if I can find it on your site so you know what I'm talking about.

[1:18:02] Bob Dobbs: Is this where

[1:18:04] Bob Dobbs: I explain Ion's methodological manner of communication?

[1:18:08] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:18:08] Cameron McEwen: I think so.

[1:18:09] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:18:09] Bob Dobbs: that's a new one.

[1:18:10] Bob Dobbs: That's a new post.

[1:18:11] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:18:13] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:18:13] Bob Dobbs: what happened?

[1:18:15] Bob Dobbs: When the show ends,

[1:18:17] Bob Dobbs: 12-hour show,

[1:18:18] Bob Dobbs: we have what's called a tailgate.

[1:18:20] Bob Dobbs: Do you know that term,

[1:18:21] Bob Dobbs: tailgate,

[1:18:21] Bob Dobbs: from football games and stuff?

[1:18:23] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:18:23] Bob Dobbs: sure.

[1:18:24] Bob Dobbs: You know what that means.

[1:18:25] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:18:25] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[1:18:25] Bob Dobbs: Of course.

[1:18:26] Bob Dobbs: So we have a tailgate where people,

[1:18:28] Bob Dobbs: we're not being broadcast anymore.

[1:18:30] Bob Dobbs: The radio station is broadcasting something else,

[1:18:33] Bob Dobbs: but we all can stay on the phone,

[1:18:35] Bob Dobbs: which we were on during the show.

[1:18:37] Bob Dobbs: and keep talking and I'll go another five or six seven hours so that's where I get to hold forth while Ion's been holding forth for 12 hours generally you know what I mean so yeah I get to quote dominate and

[1:18:53] Bob Dobbs: Ion had brought up a new point that there are emotions in matter or in the periodic table in elements and that triggered a whole bunch of stuff for me

[1:19:06] Bob Dobbs: that integrated everything that he'd been saying since 2009.

[1:19:10] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:19:11] Bob Dobbs: I was able to add this new pattern and explain all of

[1:19:16] Bob Dobbs: ION and also talk like ION.

[1:19:20] Bob Dobbs: I was actually becoming his style of communicating and quadrophenically jumping all over the place.

[1:19:27] Bob Dobbs: And it got recorded.

[1:19:29] Bob Dobbs: So we took that recording and put that out this past week.

[1:19:35] Bob Dobbs: that's what you would have seen on maybe the front page.

[1:19:41] Cameron McEwen: I didn't listen to all of it,

[1:19:42] Cameron McEwen: especially the last hour after about five minutes or something.

[1:19:48] Cameron McEwen: It just didn't seem to me to be something that I was going to listen to.

[1:19:54] Cameron McEwen: But the first two

[1:19:57] Cameron McEwen: I did listen to,

[1:19:58] Cameron McEwen: and it wasn't just you speaking.

[1:20:04] Cameron McEwen: There were people questioning or commenting,

[1:20:08] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:20:08] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:20:09] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[1:20:09] Cameron McEwen: And one of the people said something I thought was very interesting,

[1:20:13] Cameron McEwen: but

[1:20:15] Cameron McEwen: I didn't really understand.

[1:20:19] Cameron McEwen: the situation in McLuhan.

[1:20:22] Cameron McEwen: So the person said,

[1:20:26] Cameron McEwen: according to McLuhan,

[1:20:29] Cameron McEwen: amusement is the only possible strategy.

[1:20:34] Cameron McEwen: And that's,

[1:20:35] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:20:35] Cameron McEwen: that's a wonderful comment in my view,

[1:20:39] Cameron McEwen: but I don't know where it's to be found in McLuhan.

[1:20:43] Cameron McEwen: So maybe you could offer that as a question.

[1:20:48] Cameron McEwen: at some point.

[1:20:50] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:20:50] Bob Dobbs: remember his,

[1:20:52] Bob Dobbs: in the

[1:20:52] Bob Dobbs: 50s, it might be thinking through language.

[1:20:56] Bob Dobbs: The little pamphlet he and Carpenter did,

[1:20:59] Bob Dobbs: he says,

[1:21:01] Bob Dobbs: basically he's saying education has to be entertaining.

[1:21:06] Bob Dobbs: And then,

[1:21:07] Bob Dobbs: but he says it better.

[1:21:08] Bob Dobbs: He says something about education because it pleases the most if it's entertaining.

[1:21:15] Bob Dobbs: And you have to please them for them to take it in.

[1:21:18] Bob Dobbs: Do you remember that idea?

[1:21:23] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:21:24] Bob Dobbs: I don't remember that.

[1:21:25] Cameron McEwen: Vaguely,

[1:21:26] Cameron McEwen: vaguely.

[1:21:28] Cameron McEwen: I don't think

[1:21:30] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan says something like that seriously.

[1:21:35] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[1:21:35] Bob Dobbs: I'll have to get the quote.

[1:21:36] Bob Dobbs: He says that.

[1:21:37] Bob Dobbs: He says,

[1:21:38] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:21:39] Bob Dobbs: education is one thing,

[1:21:41] Bob Dobbs: but it has to entertain or it won't work.

[1:21:45] Bob Dobbs: It's got to have an entertaining factor.

[1:21:48] Cameron McEwen: Right,

[1:21:49] Cameron McEwen: but it's not as if

[1:21:52] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan knew very well that entertaining students by itself wasn't going to work.

[1:22:01] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:22:02] Bob Dobbs: you have to figure out how to make it entertaining.

[1:22:05] Bob Dobbs: And it's not obviously entertaining.

[1:22:08] Bob Dobbs: It must please people or they won't take it in.

[1:22:14] Cameron McEwen: And that would be rhetoric.

[1:22:15] Bob Dobbs: That's the five parts of rhetoric.

[1:22:19] Bob Dobbs: How do you influence somebody that's listening,

[1:22:22] Bob Dobbs: that's responding to you?

[1:22:24] Bob Dobbs: You've got to inventio,

[1:22:25] Bob Dobbs: memory,

[1:22:26] Bob Dobbs: dispositio,

[1:22:27] Bob Dobbs: elocutio,

[1:22:29] Bob Dobbs: pronunciatio.

[1:22:31] Bob Dobbs: You've got the five things getting together.

[1:22:34] Cameron McEwen: That plurality is very important.

[1:22:36] Cameron McEwen: So

[1:22:37] Cameron McEwen: I'm not denying that

[1:22:39] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan said,

[1:22:42] Cameron McEwen: not only said but also acted in ways correlated to what this person said,

[1:22:50] Cameron McEwen: that McLuhan said.

[1:22:53] Cameron McEwen: My point is that I would love to find that quotation.

[1:22:59] Cameron McEwen: Now,

[1:23:00] Cameron McEwen: it could be that he didn't say amusement is the only possible strategy.

[1:23:04] Cameron McEwen: He could have said humor or he could have said comedy.

[1:23:09] Cameron McEwen: But the association...

[1:23:11] Cameron McEwen: of amusement slash comedy slash humor with strategy,

[1:23:19] Cameron McEwen: I think is very,

[1:23:20] Cameron McEwen: very important.

[1:23:22] Cameron McEwen: And

[1:23:23] Cameron McEwen: I wish if there is a direct quotation about that,

[1:23:28] Cameron McEwen: I would like to know where to find it.

[1:23:32] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:23:32] Bob Dobbs: well,

[1:23:32] Bob Dobbs: I'll look for that one that I'm thinking of,

[1:23:35] Bob Dobbs: thinking through language,

[1:23:36] Bob Dobbs: and that may not be it.

[1:23:37] Bob Dobbs: But what's interesting,

[1:23:38] Bob Dobbs: these are people...

[1:23:40] Bob Dobbs: They haven't read much McLuhan,

[1:23:42] Bob Dobbs: but they've heard me talk about it through the years.

[1:23:45] Bob Dobbs: So you get quite a hallucinating interpretation of McLuhan,

[1:23:48] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:23:49] Bob Dobbs: which is fun.

[1:23:50] Bob Dobbs: People are making sense.

[1:23:52] Bob Dobbs: And so that's what happens on the show.

[1:23:54] Bob Dobbs: There's a lot of making sense going on and funny things are said by people.

[1:24:00] Bob Dobbs: And they think they're making mundane sense and they don't know.

[1:24:04] Bob Dobbs: The great McLuhan scholar,

[1:24:06] Bob Dobbs: Cameron Cuse,

[1:24:07] Bob Dobbs: says,

[1:24:07] Bob Dobbs: oh my God,

[1:24:08] Bob Dobbs: that person hit it.

[1:24:09] Bob Dobbs: We've got to find that,

[1:24:10] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:24:11] Bob Dobbs: that quote.

[1:24:14] Bob Dobbs: They'd be surprised if you were,

[1:24:15] Bob Dobbs: quote,

[1:24:15] Bob Dobbs: impressed or thought it was pretty neat.

[1:24:20] Bob Dobbs: But just on the surface,

[1:24:23] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan did.

[1:24:25] Bob Dobbs: Remember he said,

[1:24:26] Bob Dobbs: I'm a Pat Paulson.

[1:24:28] Bob Dobbs: He cited a comedian as what he was doing,

[1:24:32] Bob Dobbs: and particularly of a comedian who was running for president.

[1:24:38] Cameron McEwen: And I think it was 1962 when he was at the

[1:24:42] Cameron McEwen: Festival of Life at USC,

[1:24:44] Cameron McEwen: or Festival of Arts,

[1:24:45] Cameron McEwen: I'm sorry,

[1:24:46] Cameron McEwen: at USC.

[1:24:47] Cameron McEwen: He self-identified as a comedian.

[1:24:52] Cameron McEwen: Rich Altman in Winnipeg has a tape of him saying,

[1:24:55] Cameron McEwen: I'm a comedian.

[1:24:57] Bob Dobbs: So what is

[1:24:59] Bob Dobbs: University of C,

[1:25:01] Bob Dobbs: Calgary?

[1:25:02] Cameron McEwen: USC,

[1:25:03] Cameron McEwen: University of Southern California.

[1:25:05] Bob Dobbs: And there's a transcript?

[1:25:07] Bob Dobbs: or a tape of him saying something.

[1:25:11] Bob Dobbs: I don't think I've heard that.

[1:25:12] Bob Dobbs: And he says I'm a comedian?

[1:25:15] Bob Dobbs: Correct.

[1:25:16] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:25:16] Bob Dobbs: here's the point.

[1:25:17] Bob Dobbs: He says it once,

[1:25:19] Bob Dobbs: and he'll say everything else every other time,

[1:25:22] Bob Dobbs: and he's consciously dropping here comes everybody in there.

[1:25:27] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?

[1:25:28] Bob Dobbs: He says,

[1:25:28] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[1:25:29] Bob Dobbs: this is the place where I'm going to say that.

[1:25:30] Bob Dobbs: I'll never say it again,

[1:25:32] Bob Dobbs: or not for another five years,

[1:25:34] Bob Dobbs: but he'll drop it in there for us to discover.

[1:25:37] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:25:38] Cameron McEwen: well,

[1:25:39] Cameron McEwen: they...

[1:25:41] Cameron McEwen: One of the ways that you like to report the news is to attribute a kind of meta-intentionality to people.

[1:25:55] Cameron McEwen: I'm a little suspicious of that myself.

[1:25:58] Cameron McEwen: I think people have got plenty to think about just at the ordinary level,

[1:26:03] Cameron McEwen: without having to worry about being meta-intentional.

[1:26:08] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:26:08] Bob Dobbs: what's it mean to study...

[1:26:10] Bob Dobbs: to uh communicate with certain effects in mind yeah but look he wanted to say he was a comedian at that point for some reason it probably telstar caused it the

[1:26:26] Bob Dobbs: hit song telstar remember that the song about telstar i remember telstar but i don't remember yeah there was a it was the number one song telstar was instrumental in about 62 so i'm just taking something of pop culture

[1:26:40] Bob Dobbs: That's communicating something to McCloney.

[1:26:42] Bob Dobbs: Ah,

[1:26:42] Bob Dobbs: now's the time to say I'm a comedian.

[1:26:46] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:26:48] Bob Dobbs: yes,

[1:26:50] Bob Dobbs: I consider him a great actor in a way.

[1:26:52] Bob Dobbs: He was a new kind of actor that people didn't know he was acting.

[1:26:56] Bob Dobbs: Sure.

[1:26:58] Cameron McEwen: Nothing wrong with that,

[1:26:59] Cameron McEwen: of course.

[1:27:02] Cameron McEwen: That was one of the great attachments between him and Shakespeare.

[1:27:08] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:27:09] Cameron McEwen: He,

[1:27:09] Cameron McEwen: he.

[1:27:10] Cameron McEwen: consciously thought that we were just masks on the stage.

[1:27:20] Cameron McEwen: His mother had taught him that very early.

[1:27:22] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:27:24] Bob Dobbs: I like that quote from Rabelais in Gutenberg Galaxy.

[1:27:28] Bob Dobbs: Rabelais,

[1:27:28] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:27:30] Bob Dobbs: R-A-B-E-L-A-I-S,

[1:27:33] Bob Dobbs: 1500s or so.

[1:27:35] Bob Dobbs: He demanded everybody to put down their plow or their hoe and...

[1:27:40] Bob Dobbs: study his book that he was putting out.

[1:27:43] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:27:44] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:27:44] Bob Dobbs: everybody had to stop what they're doing and pay attention.

[1:27:46] Bob Dobbs: That kind of megalomania,

[1:27:48] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan understood or felt himself,

[1:27:52] Bob Dobbs: and sometimes he would come out.

[1:27:54] Bob Dobbs: And maybe I picked up on some of that,

[1:27:55] Bob Dobbs: too,

[1:27:56] Bob Dobbs: more than your timid academics,

[1:27:59] Bob Dobbs: because they can't talk that way.

[1:28:02] Cameron McEwen: But all of these people,

[1:28:03] Cameron McEwen: Rabelais,

[1:28:05] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan,

[1:28:05] Cameron McEwen: and Dobbs,

[1:28:07] Cameron McEwen: are talking about the fabulous...

[1:28:10] Cameron McEwen: never before seen in the history of the world in importance of their stuff as a put on.

[1:28:16] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:28:16] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[1:28:18] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[1:28:18] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:28:20] Cameron McEwen: everybody does it knowing that Rabelais already did it.

[1:28:24] Cameron McEwen: Rabelais already knew that

[1:28:29] Cameron McEwen: Aristophanes had done it,

[1:28:31] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:28:31] Cameron McEwen: Yes,

[1:28:32] Cameron McEwen: yes.

[1:28:32] Cameron McEwen: On and on.

[1:28:34] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:28:34] Bob Dobbs: like

[1:28:35] Bob Dobbs: Rabelais, he knew with print coming in,

[1:28:37] Bob Dobbs: uh-oh.

[1:28:38] Bob Dobbs: It's going to be harder to be heard,

[1:28:40] Bob Dobbs: this great tradition,

[1:28:41] Bob Dobbs: the Manipian tradition.

[1:28:42] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:28:43] Bob Dobbs: I've got to really get a little more extreme about it.

[1:28:47] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:28:49] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[1:28:49] Bob Dobbs: You know that quote is from this British guy around 1968,

[1:28:54] Bob Dobbs: interviewed McLuhan.

[1:28:55] Bob Dobbs: It's like a little booklet that guy put together.

[1:28:59] Bob Dobbs: I've got letters in their correspondence sending that up.

[1:29:02] Bob Dobbs: Buried day or buried dry or something.

[1:29:06] Bob Dobbs: And it has on the cover.

[1:29:08] Bob Dobbs: I'm the only person who knows what's going on.

[1:29:11] Bob Dobbs: Remember that quote?

[1:29:11] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:29:12] Cameron McEwen: I have that too.

[1:29:12] Cameron McEwen: I think it is Day.

[1:29:14] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:29:14] Bob Dobbs: Barry Day,

[1:29:15] Bob Dobbs: a British guy.

[1:29:17] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:29:18] Bob Dobbs: And he caught that statement if McLuhan did say it.

[1:29:23] Bob Dobbs: Barry could have hallucinated on it,

[1:29:25] Bob Dobbs: misinterpreted something.

[1:29:26] Bob Dobbs: But that's quite a statement,

[1:29:28] Bob Dobbs: isn't it?

[1:29:29] Bob Dobbs: I'm the only one who knows what's going on.

[1:29:34] Bob Dobbs: Is that a bit of a...

[1:29:38] Bob Dobbs: Stepping up from Ravele or from Joyce?

[1:29:44] Bob Dobbs: Isn't that,

[1:29:46] Bob Dobbs: he's going further than what anybody ever said before.

[1:29:51] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:29:52] Cameron McEwen: in a certain sense,

[1:29:53] Cameron McEwen: but it's self-depreciating,

[1:29:57] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:29:59] Cameron McEwen: To say that is to include all...

[1:30:07] Cameron McEwen: human experience.

[1:30:09] Cameron McEwen: as asserting its monumentality,

[1:30:15] Cameron McEwen: you could say.

[1:30:17] Cameron McEwen: Nobody spends their life in a corner saying,

[1:30:24] Cameron McEwen: I'm not important,

[1:30:25] Cameron McEwen: nothing I say is important,

[1:30:27] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:30:27] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:30:28] Cameron McEwen: everybody goes out and is constantly enunciating things that they think of as world important.

[1:30:37] Cameron McEwen: And it's all...

[1:30:38] Cameron McEwen: totally meaningless.

[1:30:41] Cameron McEwen: It has no importance whatsoever.

[1:30:45] Cameron McEwen: But they need monumentality just like they need air.

[1:30:52] Bob Dobbs: The human comedy.

[1:30:54] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:30:54] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.

[1:30:55] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:30:57] Bob Dobbs: That's pretty good.

[1:30:59] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:30:59] Bob Dobbs: Baclod took that nature,

[1:31:01] Bob Dobbs: that human nature,

[1:31:02] Bob Dobbs: human cliché,

[1:31:03] Bob Dobbs: and he upped the ante by rubbing in everybody's face.

[1:31:09] Bob Dobbs: Sure.

[1:31:11] Cameron McEwen: Let me mention the reason I thought that your auditor or questioner,

[1:31:18] Cameron McEwen: whatever they're called,

[1:31:20] Cameron McEwen: the reason I thought it was so good,

[1:31:23] Cameron McEwen: amusement is the only possible strategy,

[1:31:26] Cameron McEwen: or humor or comedy is the only possible strategy,

[1:31:29] Cameron McEwen: is

[1:31:29] Cameron McEwen: I've often thought that the United Nations or somebody should set up an office.

[1:31:39] Cameron McEwen: And the office should be for something like it should authorize or issue,

[1:31:53] Cameron McEwen: that's the word I'm looking for,

[1:31:54] Cameron McEwen: it should issue certificates for when you can take over the assets of another country.

[1:32:06] Cameron McEwen: And the idea would be,

[1:32:08] Cameron McEwen: My idea would be that the

[1:32:12] Cameron McEwen: United Nations would set up this authority,

[1:32:16] Cameron McEwen: and this authority would allow the takeover of somebody else's assets,

[1:32:22] Cameron McEwen: and the

[1:32:24] Cameron McEwen: United Nations would authorize the United States as the sole country able to administer that office.

[1:32:34] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[1:32:34] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:32:36] Cameron McEwen: and

[1:32:38] Cameron McEwen: So,

[1:32:40] Cameron McEwen: for example,

[1:32:41] Cameron McEwen: let's say that China comes along and proposes to the United Nations that such an office be set up,

[1:32:54] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:32:56] Cameron McEwen: The idea would be to use amusement or comedy to make a point at the United Nations as a strategy.

[1:33:07] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:33:07] Cameron McEwen: that could,

[1:33:09] Cameron McEwen: to make a point that cannot be made in any other way.

[1:33:12] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:33:13] Cameron McEwen: If you try to say,

[1:33:15] Cameron McEwen: oh,

[1:33:15] Cameron McEwen: United States is taking somebody's assets and that's wrong,

[1:33:22] Cameron McEwen: then you know what's going to happen.

[1:33:25] Cameron McEwen: The United States and 15 other countries are going to veto it in the Security

[1:33:33] Bob Dobbs: Council. Yeah.

[1:33:34] Cameron McEwen: And if you...

[1:33:36] Cameron McEwen: 200 nations vote to not allow that office and one votes to have the office,

[1:33:50] Cameron McEwen: namely the United States,

[1:33:51] Cameron McEwen: then it doesn't make any difference.

[1:33:56] Cameron McEwen: Nobody cares what happens in the General Assembly.

[1:34:00] Cameron McEwen: You can vote whatever you want in the General Assembly.

[1:34:03] Cameron McEwen: It has no effect.

[1:34:05] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[1:34:05] Cameron McEwen: Nobody reports it,

[1:34:07] Cameron McEwen: nobody cares about it,

[1:34:09] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:34:09] Cameron McEwen: It's supposedly the great parliament of the world,

[1:34:13] Cameron McEwen: and it's meaningless,

[1:34:14] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:34:14] Cameron McEwen: And the only strategy that could possibly do anything about that situation is humor.

[1:34:21] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:34:22] Cameron McEwen: So

[1:34:25] Cameron McEwen: I like the statement in terms of strategy as being something very,

[1:34:33] Cameron McEwen: very practical.

[1:34:34] Cameron McEwen: And McLuhan did make practical proposals all the time,

[1:34:42] Cameron McEwen: and nobody paid any attention to it,

[1:34:43] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:34:44] Cameron McEwen: So if somebody had,

[1:34:47] Cameron McEwen: on the basis of what McLuhan was talking about,

[1:34:50] Cameron McEwen: if somebody had invested just a few cents in what he was talking about,

[1:34:56] Cameron McEwen: they would be a gazillionaire now,

[1:34:58] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:34:58] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:34:59] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:35:00] Cameron McEwen: he predicted the importance of information and the importance of dialogue between ordinary people and

[1:35:11] Cameron McEwen: And everybody just completely ignored it.

[1:35:14] Cameron McEwen: There was nothing that he said in those terms that made any sense to people whatsoever.

[1:35:22] Cameron McEwen: So he goes to General Electric.

[1:35:25] Cameron McEwen: And he says,

[1:35:25] Cameron McEwen: look,

[1:35:26] Cameron McEwen: you're in the business of information,

[1:35:28] Cameron McEwen: and you have to understand what these light bulbs you're making,

[1:35:31] Cameron McEwen: what they're really about,

[1:35:33] Cameron McEwen: and all that sort of stuff.

[1:35:34] Cameron McEwen: And

[1:35:35] Cameron McEwen: General Electric thought,

[1:35:37] Cameron McEwen: oh,

[1:35:37] Cameron McEwen: this guy knows absolutely nothing about everything we can use.

[1:35:41] Cameron McEwen: And so here we are 40 years later,

[1:35:43] Cameron McEwen: and General Electric is going broke because they didn't know anything about that stuff.

[1:35:50] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:35:50] Cameron McEwen: Similarly with Kodak,

[1:35:52] Cameron McEwen: and similarly with...

[1:35:53] Cameron McEwen: Studebaker and on Yeah.

[1:35:58] Bob Dobbs: It's like McLuhan was the most right human being in recorded history.

[1:36:04] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:36:04] Cameron McEwen: that's correct.

[1:36:05] Cameron McEwen: But there have always been people like that who simply reported what was going on that nobody else could see.

[1:36:15] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:36:15] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[1:36:15] Cameron McEwen: And maybe that's one of your claims about the tiny note chart.

[1:36:18] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:36:19] Cameron McEwen: Either you or the Android me is simply.

[1:36:23] Cameron McEwen: commenting on the passing show.

[1:36:27] Cameron McEwen: Then it turns out that the comments on the passing show are investment worthy.

[1:36:36] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:36:36] Bob Dobbs: this is exactly what I've been saying lately.

[1:36:39] Bob Dobbs: He said,

[1:36:39] Bob Dobbs: Bob,

[1:36:41] Bob Dobbs: everybody knows that you've been considered insane for years.

[1:36:46] Bob Dobbs: He says,

[1:36:48] Bob Dobbs: but what's frightening now is you're beginning to make sense.

[1:36:54] Bob Dobbs: because the world has gone so crazy.

[1:36:57] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[1:36:58] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[1:36:58] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:36:59] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[1:36:59] Bob Dobbs: I insist.

[1:37:01] Bob Dobbs: And he also makes all kinds of financial claims about myself.

[1:37:05] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:37:07] Bob Dobbs: I've come to my apotheosis.

[1:37:10] Bob Dobbs: So that reminds me,

[1:37:12] Bob Dobbs: I hope I can find this quickly.

[1:37:15] Bob Dobbs: There's this guy,

[1:37:16] Bob Dobbs: a younger guy.

[1:37:18] Bob Dobbs: The actual,

[1:37:19] Bob Dobbs: in 2011,

[1:37:21] Bob Dobbs: Andrew Kirsten and I,

[1:37:22] Bob Dobbs: did a year-long celebration of McLuhan's centenary,

[1:37:26] Bob Dobbs: and we were at the end of the year,

[1:37:27] Bob Dobbs: we were going to have a conference here in Maui.

[1:37:30] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:37:31] Bob Dobbs: only one or two people showed up.

[1:37:34] Bob Dobbs: Andrew couldn't even make it.

[1:37:36] Bob Dobbs: And this was a younger guy from Los Angeles,

[1:37:39] Bob Dobbs: so that was easy to fly over from LA.

[1:37:42] Bob Dobbs: So then we kept talking,

[1:37:43] Bob Dobbs: but he discovered

[1:37:46] Bob Dobbs: Leo Strauss and some woman who corresponded and argued with Wyndham Lewis.

[1:37:52] Bob Dobbs: And he wasn't into McLuhan yet,

[1:37:55] Bob Dobbs: but he kept going around the world of McLuhan,

[1:37:58] Bob Dobbs: reading these other more obscure people and coming up with crazy ideas.

[1:38:02] Bob Dobbs: And he eventually got himself so worked up that he ended up thinking the whole world was against him a year or so,

[1:38:12] Bob Dobbs: two ago.

[1:38:13] Bob Dobbs: And he said it was a cult.

[1:38:15] Bob Dobbs: And so he was running from the cult.

[1:38:17] Bob Dobbs: He ended up in Europe.

[1:38:19] Bob Dobbs: And he called me in desperation that if he...

[1:38:21] Bob Dobbs: If I didn't send him some money,

[1:38:23] Bob Dobbs: he would be dead in three days.

[1:38:26] Bob Dobbs: So I sent him a couple thousand dollars,

[1:38:28] Bob Dobbs: and he was supposedly forever grateful for that.

[1:38:32] Bob Dobbs: And then I never heard from him.

[1:38:33] Bob Dobbs: But a year later,

[1:38:35] Bob Dobbs: he shows up just this past week,

[1:38:39] Bob Dobbs: and let me see.

[1:38:42] Bob Dobbs: This is entertaining.

[1:38:43] Bob Dobbs: We're doing humor here,

[1:38:45] Bob Dobbs: whatever it is,

[1:38:47] Bob Dobbs: so you can learn something.

[1:38:50] Bob Dobbs: I'm going to teach you something.

[1:38:52] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:38:53] Bob Dobbs: so here it is.

[1:38:55] Bob Dobbs: All right.

[1:39:04] Cameron McEwen: This is a conversation that was recorded?

[1:39:07] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:39:07] Cameron McEwen: emails.

[1:39:08] Bob Dobbs: Emails.

[1:39:08] Cameron McEwen: Okay,

[1:39:09] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[1:39:11] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:39:12] Bob Dobbs: so let's see.

[1:39:23] Bob Dobbs: So he,

[1:39:25] Bob Dobbs: out of the blue,

[1:39:27] Bob Dobbs: he emails me.

[1:39:28] Bob Dobbs: So he says,

[1:39:30] Bob Dobbs: I'm homeless in Venice,

[1:39:31] Bob Dobbs: California.

[1:39:34] Bob Dobbs: Talks about someone he ran into,

[1:39:36] Bob Dobbs: says that person hates him.

[1:39:39] Bob Dobbs: I know that.

[1:39:39] Bob Dobbs: And he says,

[1:39:41] Bob Dobbs: I will stay for a long,

[1:39:42] Bob Dobbs: long time,

[1:39:43] Bob Dobbs: I think.

[1:39:44] Bob Dobbs: I have some illuminating essays coming out on Strauss.

[1:39:47] Bob Dobbs: You know Leo Strauss?

[1:39:48] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:39:50] Bob Dobbs: Leo Strauss,

[1:39:50] Bob Dobbs: father of neoconservatism,

[1:39:52] Bob Dobbs: I guess,

[1:39:52] Bob Dobbs: modern neoconservatism.

[1:39:54] Bob Dobbs: and company.

[1:39:56] Bob Dobbs: And he says...

[1:40:01] Bob Dobbs: Adam Curtis just came out with a new documentary.

[1:40:04] Bob Dobbs: And I said,

[1:40:04] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[1:40:04] Bob Dobbs: I'm actually watching it right now.

[1:40:07] Bob Dobbs: And then I say something about that,

[1:40:08] Bob Dobbs: but I won't go into it.

[1:40:09] Bob Dobbs: Then he writes back,

[1:40:11] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan and Quadrophenia,

[1:40:14] Bob Dobbs: citing me,

[1:40:16] Bob Dobbs: now way more interesting to me,

[1:40:18] Bob Dobbs: by the way.

[1:40:19] Bob Dobbs: Where can I read about your new book?

[1:40:22] Bob Dobbs: You have an interview on it,

[1:40:23] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:40:24] Bob Dobbs: Thanks for the reference,

[1:40:25] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:40:26] Bob Dobbs: ahead of time.

[1:40:26] Bob Dobbs: So I said,

[1:40:27] Bob Dobbs: well,

[1:40:27] Bob Dobbs: here's the book,

[1:40:28] Bob Dobbs: and you can listen to me and Cameron.

[1:40:31] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:40:34] Bob Dobbs: let's see,

[1:40:34] Bob Dobbs: I sent him a link to our discussions,

[1:40:38] Bob Dobbs: and all of a sudden,

[1:40:41] Bob Dobbs: maybe I missed it,

[1:40:43] Bob Dobbs: he compliments me in one of these early emails,

[1:40:46] Bob Dobbs: but all of a sudden,

[1:40:47] Bob Dobbs: after he gets the link from you,

[1:40:49] Bob Dobbs: and I don't know if he heard it,

[1:40:51] Bob Dobbs: if he can,

[1:40:52] Bob Dobbs: because he sleeps in doorways at night and wanders around homeless working on his book.

[1:41:00] Bob Dobbs: waiting for libraries to open so he can do more research.

[1:41:03] Bob Dobbs: And he suddenly writes back to me and goes,

[1:41:05] Bob Dobbs: I am calling it.

[1:41:06] Bob Dobbs: You know less than me.

[1:41:10] Bob Dobbs: Okay?

[1:41:10] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:41:11] Bob Dobbs: he used to do this years ago.

[1:41:13] Bob Dobbs: Flip on me.

[1:41:14] Bob Dobbs: And then he sends another email and he says,

[1:41:17] Bob Dobbs: you're a timocrat.

[1:41:19] Bob Dobbs: Or timocrat.

[1:41:20] Bob Dobbs: T-I-M-O-C-R-A-T.

[1:41:23] Bob Dobbs: I think he's being Wyndham Lewis.

[1:41:26] Bob Dobbs: And,

[1:41:26] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:41:26] Bob Dobbs: I'm a guy who's stuck in time.

[1:41:29] Bob Dobbs: Like Ion says,

[1:41:30] Bob Dobbs: you're a timocrat or a timocrat.

[1:41:32] Bob Dobbs: And then he says,

[1:41:33] Bob Dobbs: you're a Walter Alter even.

[1:41:36] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:41:37] Bob Dobbs: I don't know anything about Walter Alter other than he's a member of the media ecology list and he's always on there debating.

[1:41:44] Bob Dobbs: But I don't know who he is.

[1:41:45] Bob Dobbs: Then he says,

[1:41:47] Bob Dobbs: you're an atheist.

[1:41:50] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:41:50] Bob Dobbs: these are over a day he's making these emails.

[1:41:53] Bob Dobbs: So then I said,

[1:41:56] Bob Dobbs: I wrote back to him.

[1:41:58] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:41:58] Bob Dobbs: you didn't learn to drop your old BS when you were in that cult,

[1:42:02] Bob Dobbs: when you were in that cult that cost me a thousand dollars or something.

[1:42:07] Bob Dobbs: And he goes,

[1:42:08] Bob Dobbs: oh,

[1:42:08] Bob Dobbs: fuck,

[1:42:08] Bob Dobbs: really?

[1:42:10] Bob Dobbs: I sincerely apologize to you and Carolyn.

[1:42:12] Bob Dobbs: Thanks for informing me.

[1:42:14] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:42:14] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if he's joking when he says that,

[1:42:18] Bob Dobbs: but let's see the continue here.

[1:42:23] Bob Dobbs: Just a second.

[1:42:42] Bob Dobbs: This second,

[1:43:05] Bob Dobbs: he

[1:43:06] Bob Dobbs: says,

[1:43:07] Bob Dobbs: um...

[1:43:17] Bob Dobbs: He wrote to me when I sent him the money,

[1:43:20] Bob Dobbs: March 2020,

[1:43:22] Bob Dobbs: a year ago.

[1:43:22] Bob Dobbs: Bob,

[1:43:23] Bob Dobbs: of all the intelligent people,

[1:43:25] Bob Dobbs: or supposedly intelligent people that I correspond with,

[1:43:27] Bob Dobbs: you're pretty much the only person that has proven to be a real human being.

[1:43:31] Bob Dobbs: You have a heart of gold.

[1:43:32] Bob Dobbs: Thank you so much,

[1:43:33] Bob Dobbs: so much,

[1:43:33] Bob Dobbs: so much to you and your wife for helping me in France and to this day,

[1:43:37] Bob Dobbs: especially considering all that you have probably heard about me.

[1:43:40] Bob Dobbs: You are the real deal,

[1:43:43] Bob Dobbs: and keep on doing what you do for as long as it's possible.

[1:43:45] Bob Dobbs: If I survive the next week,

[1:43:47] Bob Dobbs: which is unlikely,

[1:43:50] Bob Dobbs: so this is his final message to me,

[1:43:53] Bob Dobbs: and if we ever meet again,

[1:43:54] Bob Dobbs: which would still be unlikely,

[1:43:57] Bob Dobbs: I hope to repay the favor.

[1:43:58] Bob Dobbs: Unfortunately,

[1:43:59] Bob Dobbs: I am not creative enough to do that right now.

[1:44:02] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:44:03] Bob Dobbs: so then he has a PS.

[1:44:04] Bob Dobbs: Might head to Australia soon if I can.

[1:44:07] Bob Dobbs: Always been a dream.

[1:44:08] Bob Dobbs: Always been a fan of the cinema,

[1:44:10] Bob Dobbs: especially the work of George Miller.

[1:44:12] Bob Dobbs: Take care.

[1:44:13] Bob Dobbs: So I'm showing you.

[1:44:14] Bob Dobbs: He thought a lot of me when I sent the money.

[1:44:16] Bob Dobbs: Now it's a year later,

[1:44:18] Bob Dobbs: and he's saying,

[1:44:23] Bob Dobbs: Bob,

[1:44:25] Bob Dobbs: if you are a Walter Alter,

[1:44:27] Bob Dobbs: deranged,

[1:44:28] Bob Dobbs: woman-hating,

[1:44:28] Bob Dobbs: childless nerd,

[1:44:30] Bob Dobbs: then I do not care what you have to say about anything.

[1:44:35] Bob Dobbs: So then I say,

[1:44:37] Bob Dobbs: so,

[1:44:37] Bob Dobbs: you haven't learned anything.

[1:44:39] Bob Dobbs: You're still a spasty quadrophenic.

[1:44:41] Bob Dobbs: Start paying me back or don't email me,

[1:44:44] Bob Dobbs: he writes back.

[1:44:45] Bob Dobbs: You're a joke.

[1:44:46] Bob Dobbs: You've squandered your life and your profound gifts.

[1:44:49] Bob Dobbs: Read Shakespeare's sonnets to his son.

[1:44:53] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:44:55] Bob Dobbs: I then say to him,

[1:44:56] Bob Dobbs: do you remember how much money we gave you?

[1:44:59] Bob Dobbs: He writes back the next day,

[1:45:01] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[1:45:02] Bob Dobbs: I regret the things I said,

[1:45:04] Bob Dobbs: please forgive me.

[1:45:06] Bob Dobbs: So I say,

[1:45:07] Bob Dobbs: you want to talk on the phone or Skype?

[1:45:09] Bob Dobbs: So he says,

[1:45:10] Bob Dobbs: yes.

[1:45:10] Bob Dobbs: So we talked on the phone the other day.

[1:45:14] Bob Dobbs: And that's nice.

[1:45:17] Bob Dobbs: And then within,

[1:45:21] Bob Dobbs: okay.

[1:45:29] Cameron McEwen: Maybe you should,

[1:45:30] Cameron McEwen: just so that the readers or the hearers or auditors don't lose the thread.

[1:45:35] Cameron McEwen: I'm kind of losing the thread.

[1:45:37] Cameron McEwen: Why are we doing this?

[1:45:39] Cameron McEwen: You'll see.

[1:45:40] Bob Dobbs: It totally relates to

[1:45:42] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan's problems.

[1:45:44] Bob Dobbs: Why he had to be a comedian.

[1:45:47] Bob Dobbs: So he sends,

[1:45:51] Bob Dobbs: he then,

[1:45:51] Bob Dobbs: after,

[1:45:52] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:45:52] Bob Dobbs: saying,

[1:45:54] Bob Dobbs: I'm an idiot,

[1:45:55] Bob Dobbs: basically,

[1:45:55] Bob Dobbs: he says,

[1:45:56] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:45:56] Bob Dobbs: I will be recognized as a saint sometime.

[1:46:00] Bob Dobbs: Meaning him.

[1:46:01] Bob Dobbs: Then he says the next day,

[1:46:02] Bob Dobbs: Bob,

[1:46:06] Bob Dobbs: I finally realized last night that you are insane.

[1:46:09] Bob Dobbs: And that I have been in denial about it for many years.

[1:46:15] Bob Dobbs: He's finally realized he's been really nice to me.

[1:46:18] Bob Dobbs: He's been ignoring the fact that I'm insane.

[1:46:20] Bob Dobbs: And then he says,

[1:46:21] Bob Dobbs: you are perhaps the single greatest living proof that too much free time is dangerous.

[1:46:26] Bob Dobbs: Perhaps your life has not been such a waste after all.

[1:46:30] Bob Dobbs: I might write an essay explaining you to you.

[1:46:34] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan would have loathed you.

[1:46:36] Bob Dobbs: Maybe he did.

[1:46:39] Bob Dobbs: Okay?

[1:46:41] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:46:41] Bob Dobbs: we're doing McLuhan here.

[1:46:43] Bob Dobbs: And that's where he got.

[1:46:47] Bob Dobbs: And I said,

[1:46:48] Bob Dobbs: oh,

[1:46:48] Bob Dobbs: I look forward to the essay.

[1:46:50] Bob Dobbs: And I haven't heard back from him.

[1:46:52] Bob Dobbs: But you see what I put up with?

[1:46:54] Bob Dobbs: The abuse?

[1:46:55] Bob Dobbs: McClellan got letters like that all the time.

[1:46:58] Cameron McEwen: Sure.

[1:46:59] Cameron McEwen: But that's the one thing that came to me through all this searching through the email and stuff is that for a long time,

[1:47:13] Cameron McEwen: going back to your radio career and presumably before that,

[1:47:20] Cameron McEwen: You kind of exist in...

[1:47:23] Cameron McEwen: not only a cloud of faces,

[1:47:24] Cameron McEwen: but a cloud of voices.

[1:47:26] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:47:27] Cameron McEwen: And you seem to me to be a special kind of microphone or a special kind of camera that can

[1:47:44] Cameron McEwen: not only adjust the distance,

[1:47:49] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:47:49] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:47:50] Cameron McEwen: a microphone or a camera doesn't have any problem.

[1:47:53] Cameron McEwen: Having a close-up and then

[1:47:57] Cameron McEwen: I forget what it's called when it's far away and it takes in the whole scene.

[1:48:03] Cameron McEwen: But a microphone can also do the same thing,

[1:48:07] Cameron McEwen: can pick up what somebody in a large scene is just sort of murmuring and then go back and hear the entire kerfuffle of the...

[1:48:21] Cameron McEwen: entire scene,

[1:48:22] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:48:23] Cameron McEwen: So going back and forth.

[1:48:24] Cameron McEwen: So what you can do is you can actually put on these individual voices and then you can put on their ensemble.

[1:48:36] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:48:37] Cameron McEwen: And so then,

[1:48:41] Cameron McEwen: so you've been doing this for at the very least

[1:48:45] Cameron McEwen: 40 or 50 years.

[1:48:47] Bob Dobbs: That's right,

[1:48:47] Bob Dobbs: 40 years.

[1:48:49] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[1:48:50] Cameron McEwen: and

[1:48:52] Cameron McEwen: so that just the phenomenon is interesting,

[1:48:58] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:48:59] Cameron McEwen: It's the exercise of mind shuffling cards,

[1:49:03] Cameron McEwen: as I said before.

[1:49:05] Cameron McEwen: But you're not just shuffling cards.

[1:49:08] Cameron McEwen: You're shuffling voices and masks.

[1:49:11] Cameron McEwen: And not only is something objective,

[1:49:14] Cameron McEwen: you also are doing it as something subjective.

[1:49:18] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:49:19] Bob Dobbs: And I've got,

[1:49:20] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:49:20] Bob Dobbs: 40 years of audio proving I did it.

[1:49:24] Cameron McEwen: Correct,

[1:49:24] Cameron McEwen: correct.

[1:49:26] Cameron McEwen: And the tiny note chart is kind of a 1995 instancing of the putting on the mask,

[1:49:37] Cameron McEwen: the fifth level,

[1:49:39] Cameron McEwen: if you will,

[1:49:40] Cameron McEwen: of the chart,

[1:49:40] Cameron McEwen: the one that is the Bob Dobbs level,

[1:49:43] Cameron McEwen: is the

[1:49:46] Cameron McEwen: It's the putting on of a mask that is the collective mask.

[1:49:51] Cameron McEwen: And so what you're doing there in terms of what we were speaking about earlier in

[1:50:00] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan is that when

[1:50:04] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan identifies forms that have their educational problems and their practical problems and their theoretical problems,

[1:50:14] Cameron McEwen: um

[1:50:15] Cameron McEwen: He also identifies the problem of what he calls language itself.

[1:50:26] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:50:26] Cameron McEwen: Just to say that the thing that he probably liked most in Joyce was the idea that language is a kind of collective mask.

[1:50:37] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:50:39] Bob Dobbs: That everybody contributes to.

[1:50:42] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[1:50:42] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[1:50:43] Cameron McEwen: And that is constantly changing.

[1:50:46] Cameron McEwen: constantly adding new terms and new insights and new blindnesses.

[1:50:55] Cameron McEwen: But there are collective forms,

[1:51:01] Cameron McEwen: and human history has not been very good at identifying those collective forms.

[1:51:09] Cameron McEwen: We're much better at identifying individual forms.

[1:51:13] Cameron McEwen: But when we apply the individual forms to the collective forms,

[1:51:17] Cameron McEwen: then we get into trouble,

[1:51:19] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:51:19] Cameron McEwen: That's communism or Nazism or,

[1:51:22] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[1:51:26] Cameron McEwen: manifest destiny-ism.

[1:51:28] Bob Dobbs: Joe Biden-ism.

[1:51:30] Bob Dobbs: Joe Biden-ism.

[1:51:32] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:51:32] Cameron McEwen: or Trump-ism,

[1:51:33] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:51:34] Cameron McEwen: All of these are applications of individual masks to the collective.

[1:51:43] Cameron McEwen: and that's a bad and dangerous practice that human beings seem to be prone to.

[1:51:55] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:51:56] Bob Dobbs: Let me just check.

[1:51:58] Bob Dobbs: Do we hear a voice coming through there?

[1:52:00] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:52:00] Bob Dobbs: it's still happening,

[1:52:01] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:52:02] Bob Dobbs: Just checking to see if we're still recording.

[1:52:04] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:52:05] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[1:52:05] Bob Dobbs: What was your last bit?

[1:52:07] Bob Dobbs: I know we've got to end soon.

[1:52:09] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:52:10] Bob Dobbs: But what was the last ten words?

[1:52:14] Bob Dobbs: All the voices,

[1:52:16] Bob Dobbs: the masks,

[1:52:17] Bob Dobbs: the individual masks,

[1:52:19] Bob Dobbs: makes a mistake going collective.

[1:52:21] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:52:21] Cameron McEwen: humans are prone to the mistake of applying individual masks,

[1:52:28] Cameron McEwen: which they know to be plural,

[1:52:30] Cameron McEwen: to collectives,

[1:52:31] Cameron McEwen: which they also know to be plural.

[1:52:33] Cameron McEwen: But one of McLuhan's points is that those masks are different.

[1:52:40] Cameron McEwen: And we...

[1:52:41] Cameron McEwen: We have to understand the masks of the collectives.

[1:52:50] Bob Dobbs: The archetypes of the collective unconscious.

[1:52:52] Bob Dobbs: That's what we were just learning.

[1:52:56] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:52:56] Bob Dobbs: We mastered the archetypes of individual postures of mind.

[1:53:00] Bob Dobbs: He says that in Gutenberg Galaxy.

[1:53:03] Bob Dobbs: Alexander Pope did a pretty good job anticipating Freud,

[1:53:06] Bob Dobbs: he said.

[1:53:08] Bob Dobbs: But now we're in the realm of the archetypes of the social unconscious while becoming collectively conscious.

[1:53:15] Bob Dobbs: And so what's the difference?

[1:53:18] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:53:19] Bob Dobbs: by all that you said there,

[1:53:20] Bob Dobbs: you reminded me that's probably what I thought I was doing when I made the chart.

[1:53:25] Bob Dobbs: I was putting all the voices that I knew that I had done broadcast all on one page to look at,

[1:53:33] Bob Dobbs: wow,

[1:53:33] Bob Dobbs: look at all this stuff that I was referring to.

[1:53:36] Bob Dobbs: And then also realizing that I was a nothing,

[1:53:39] Bob Dobbs: so I brought in,

[1:53:40] Bob Dobbs: I'm a subatomic particle,

[1:53:42] Bob Dobbs: I'm also huge,

[1:53:43] Bob Dobbs: so I brought in quasars and big cosmic phenomena,

[1:53:49] Bob Dobbs: and then occult phenomena,

[1:53:53] Bob Dobbs: sociological phenomena,

[1:53:54] Bob Dobbs: I put it all in there.

[1:53:55] Bob Dobbs: So it was interesting what you just were saying.

[1:53:59] Bob Dobbs: It reminded me,

[1:54:00] Bob Dobbs: I think,

[1:54:00] Bob Dobbs: of what I thought I was doing,

[1:54:02] Bob Dobbs: putting all my voices on one page.

[1:54:07] Cameron McEwen: That's an interesting phrase.

[1:54:09] Cameron McEwen: It reminded me of what

[1:54:12] Bob Dobbs: I thought I was doing.

[1:54:17] Bob Dobbs: It's like Joyce had the same experience in Finley's Wake.

[1:54:19] Bob Dobbs: He started off with a certain provincial goal with the book,

[1:54:24] Bob Dobbs: and he never knew he'd be working on it for 17 years.

[1:54:27] Cameron McEwen: For the rest of his life.

[1:54:29] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:54:30] Cameron McEwen: He probably only stopped it because of the looming...

[1:54:35] Cameron McEwen: of the second rule of the board.

[1:54:37] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:54:38] Cameron McEwen: I was wondering how he was going to continue it.

[1:54:40] Cameron McEwen: So he said,

[1:54:41] Cameron McEwen: fuck it,

[1:54:41] Cameron McEwen: I'm going to stop it.

[1:54:43] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:54:44] Bob Dobbs: And Ian says,

[1:54:46] Bob Dobbs: good parts of it.

[1:54:47] Bob Dobbs: Better parts are on the cutting room floor.

[1:54:50] Bob Dobbs: Like he just cobbled it together quickly.

[1:54:53] Bob Dobbs: And there's a lot of stuff that got left out,

[1:54:55] Bob Dobbs: unfortunately.

[1:54:57] Bob Dobbs: And,

[1:54:58] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:54:58] Bob Dobbs: there are 25,000 pages in the Joyce archive.

[1:55:02] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:55:03] Cameron McEwen: so there.

[1:55:04] Bob Dobbs: That he did,

[1:55:06] Bob Dobbs: 25,000 pages.

[1:55:08] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:55:08] Cameron McEwen: so you're talking about the notebooks.

[1:55:11] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:55:11] Cameron McEwen: all the notebooks,

[1:55:13] Bob Dobbs: all the galleys,

[1:55:14] Bob Dobbs: everything,

[1:55:14] Bob Dobbs: I guess.

[1:55:15] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:55:18] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:55:19] Bob Dobbs: as Ian says,

[1:55:20] Bob Dobbs: we resemble that fact.

[1:55:22] Bob Dobbs: I resemble Joyce.

[1:55:24] Bob Dobbs: I understand what he got himself into.

[1:55:26] Bob Dobbs: I made this chart,

[1:55:28] Bob Dobbs: thought I was wrapping it up.

[1:55:29] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:55:30] Bob Dobbs: here's the final statement,

[1:55:31] Bob Dobbs: and I was just beginning.

[1:55:35] Bob Dobbs: And here I am.

[1:55:37] Bob Dobbs: What is this?

[1:55:37] Bob Dobbs: All right,

[1:55:38] Cameron McEwen: but today,

[1:55:39] Cameron McEwen: as you say,

[1:55:39] Cameron McEwen: we're at the end.

[1:55:40] Cameron McEwen: But I think today is the first time that we came up with something and

[1:55:47] Cameron McEwen: remotely helpful in regards to the chart.

[1:55:51] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:55:51] Cameron McEwen: And that is that it's a cloud of faces or memes that are speaking

[1:56:07] Cameron McEwen: to and against and beyond each other,

[1:56:11] Cameron McEwen: and you're going back and forth between identification and

[1:56:16] Cameron McEwen: with one or more,

[1:56:19] Cameron McEwen: and identification with the group of all,

[1:56:24] Cameron McEwen: and the attempt is being made to understand this crazy collection of voices and faces.

[1:56:35] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[1:56:36] Bob Dobbs: and that's a page of Finnegan's Wake also.

[1:56:41] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:56:41] Bob Dobbs: I see Fitting His Wake more and more over the last 20 years as the best portrait of where we've come to.

[1:56:49] Bob Dobbs: And,

[1:56:49] Bob Dobbs: of course,

[1:56:49] Bob Dobbs: nobody would ever think that in the

[1:56:52] Bob Dobbs: 30s. But this cacophony we live in and texting each other,

[1:56:56] Bob Dobbs: there's so much of that in the wake.

[1:56:58] Bob Dobbs: Literally,

[1:56:59] Bob Dobbs: it shows how people communicate now.

[1:57:03] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:57:03] Cameron McEwen: or fail to communicate.

[1:57:04] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:57:05] Bob Dobbs: fail,

[1:57:05] Bob Dobbs: but they Neurotica keep doing.

[1:57:08] Bob Dobbs: And it's almost...

[1:57:09] Bob Dobbs: He said,

[1:57:10] Bob Dobbs: I'm going to make a book that appears never to end because that's what we're doing here,

[1:57:14] Bob Dobbs: over communicating and can't stop.

[1:57:19] Cameron McEwen: Yep.

[1:57:21] Cameron McEwen: That could be called its horizontal dimension,

[1:57:23] Cameron McEwen: and then there's the vertical dimension of where all this comes from.

[1:57:28] Bob Dobbs: You're looking for the vertical dimension of what I'm doing.

[1:57:32] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[1:57:33] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:57:33] Bob Dobbs: You're pretty good at laying out the horizontal aspects.

[1:57:36] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:57:36] Bob Dobbs: is there a vertical dimension?

[1:57:38] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:57:38] Bob Dobbs: that's maybe the next question.

[1:57:42] Cameron McEwen: Of Pentagon's Wake?

[1:57:43] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:57:44] Cameron McEwen: of me,

[1:57:45] Bob Dobbs: my chart,

[1:57:45] Bob Dobbs: what I'm doing,

[1:57:46] Bob Dobbs: my book.

[1:57:48] Cameron McEwen: Sure.

[1:57:48] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:57:48] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:57:49] Cameron McEwen: I think that is the question.

[1:57:51] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:57:52] Cameron McEwen: That's actually where we started our conversation today,

[1:57:55] Cameron McEwen: because I tried to set out what

[1:57:58] Cameron McEwen: I called the McLuhan diagram.

[1:58:02] Cameron McEwen: That's really a kind of vertical slice.

[1:58:08] Cameron McEwen: through the Tiny Note chart.

[1:58:11] Cameron McEwen: And my question to you was whether the question that I posed at the start of the conversation was whether what I was saying made sense or did not make sense.

[1:58:22] Bob Dobbs: Or was the ground,

[1:58:23] Bob Dobbs: was McLuhan the ground?

[1:58:25] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:58:25] Bob Dobbs: I'd probably say Finnegans Wake is the ground,

[1:58:27] Bob Dobbs: because it's used in the larger chart that the Tiny Note chart comes out of.

[1:58:32] Bob Dobbs: So like McLuhan,

[1:58:34] Bob Dobbs: I was trying to figure out what Finnegans Wake meant.

[1:58:38] Bob Dobbs: and I added stuff that he didn't live long enough to add.

[1:58:43] Bob Dobbs: So I was,

[1:58:44] Bob Dobbs: what is that?

[1:58:45] Bob Dobbs: That's a palimpsest or it's medieval commentary.

[1:58:48] Bob Dobbs: You just sort of add to what other people said.

[1:58:50] Bob Dobbs: You write over it or in the margins in their manuscript culture.

[1:58:56] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:58:56] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:58:56] Bob Dobbs: the palimpsest maybe.

[1:58:58] Bob Dobbs: I'm doing a palimpsest saying,

[1:59:00] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[1:59:01] Bob Dobbs: McClellan got so far,

[1:59:02] Bob Dobbs: but there's way more factors that need to be illustrated.

[1:59:07] Bob Dobbs: Which is what I do in my book,

[1:59:09] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:59:09] Bob Dobbs: unused McLuhan or unused Finnegans Wake is what I'm presenting.

[1:59:15] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:59:15] Cameron McEwen: we'll go into that in detail.

[1:59:18] Bob Dobbs: Good.

[1:59:19] Bob Dobbs: That'd be fun.

[1:59:20] Cameron McEwen: I think we should,

[1:59:22] Cameron McEwen: we might wrap up.

[1:59:23] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:59:24] Bob Dobbs: you got to go.

[1:59:25] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:59:26] Cameron McEwen: but let's just say that the question of what is going on Innis cloud of memes.

[1:59:36] Cameron McEwen: individual and collective voices and videos and all that sort of stuff is a very very important question but involved in the what is the how yeah we can't we can't overlook the fact that the whole question being posed

[1:59:55] Cameron McEwen: of the what it inevitably raises the question of how to look how to participate

[2:00:04] Cameron McEwen: how to think about,

[2:00:05] Cameron McEwen: how to describe that is always embedded in the what,

[2:00:10] Cameron McEwen: and the what and the how go back and forth.

[2:00:14] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[2:00:15] Bob Dobbs: very good.

[2:00:16] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:00:17] Bob Dobbs: That was a fun conversation.

[2:00:18] Bob Dobbs: And,

[2:00:19] Bob Dobbs: yes,

[2:00:20] Bob Dobbs: I initiate.

[2:00:20] Bob Dobbs: You brought up ION.

[2:00:22] Bob Dobbs: You quoted ION.

[2:00:23] Bob Dobbs: So we brought you into IONdom a little bit there.

[2:00:26] Bob Dobbs: You started to initiate the tech body.

[2:00:31] Bob Dobbs: ION announced that the tech body has overtaken.

[2:00:34] Bob Dobbs: ion.

[2:00:37] Bob Dobbs: We've got a problem here.

[2:00:39] Bob Dobbs: Anyways,

[2:00:40] Bob Dobbs: that's the most up-to-date.

[2:00:43] Bob Dobbs: Did I ever tell you that the tech body was made up of

[2:00:46] Bob Dobbs: 8-11th ion and 3-11th tech body?

[2:00:50] Bob Dobbs: Remember me saying that?

[2:00:53] Cameron McEwen: It's now up to 5-11th or something.

[2:00:56] Bob Dobbs: It got to

[2:00:57] Bob Dobbs: 6-11th ion and

[2:00:58] Bob Dobbs: 5-11th. That's three weeks ago or so.

[2:01:01] Bob Dobbs: Four weeks ago.

[2:01:01] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[2:01:02] Bob Dobbs: Ion announced that you

[2:01:04] Bob Dobbs: The tech body's got the upper hand,

[2:01:06] Bob Dobbs: so it's sort of like tech body's

[2:01:09] Bob Dobbs: 6-11s and the ION's

[2:01:10] Bob Dobbs: 5-11s. So on the show on Saturday,

[2:01:13] Bob Dobbs: I came on and announced that ION has capitulated,

[2:01:16] Bob Dobbs: and I'm taking over from the tech body.

[2:01:19] Bob Dobbs: So we'll see how that fares out.

[2:01:21] Cameron McEwen: You're taking over from or taking over against?

[2:01:26] Bob Dobbs: I'm taking over the role of protecting people from the tech body.

[2:01:30] Bob Dobbs: which I was doing,

[2:01:32] Bob Dobbs: and they have capitulated.

[2:01:33] Bob Dobbs: So

[2:01:34] Bob Dobbs: I shocked Ian by saying that

[2:01:37] Bob Dobbs: I think I'm going to take over and do what you can't do anymore.

[2:01:42] Bob Dobbs: So that's my challenge.

[2:01:44] Bob Dobbs: It's a week ago,

[2:01:46] Bob Dobbs: less than a week ago.

[2:01:47] Bob Dobbs: So anyways,

[2:01:50] Bob Dobbs: hopefully my book will be initiating you into how I got to this state of situation.

[2:01:56] Bob Dobbs: And this is being said during the week.

[2:02:00] Bob Dobbs: People are pronouncing me radically insane.

[2:02:07] Bob Dobbs: And they sound pretty insane themselves,

[2:02:09] Bob Dobbs: but apparently I'm worse,

[2:02:11] Bob Dobbs: worse off.

[2:02:12] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[2:02:14] Bob Dobbs: Very good,

[2:02:14] Bob Dobbs: Cameron.

[2:02:15] Bob Dobbs: Fun talking.

[2:02:16] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:02:17] Cameron McEwen: Look forward to the next time.

[2:02:18] Cameron McEwen: Take care.

[2:02:19] Bob Dobbs: All right.

[2:02:19] Bob Dobbs: You too.

[2:02:20] Bob Dobbs: Bye.

[2:02:21] Cameron McEwen: Ciao,

[2:02:21] Cameron McEwen: ciao.