Dialogue 20 — Transcript

[00:02] Bob Dobbs: All right,

[00:02] Bob Dobbs: this is Ewen Cameron and Bob again.

[00:05] Bob Dobbs: This is our

[00:06] Bob Dobbs: 20th session and it's being recorded on April 1st,

[00:10] Bob Dobbs: 2021.

[00:14] Bob Dobbs: All right,

[00:14] Bob Dobbs: Ewen Cameron and I are after

[00:16] Bob Dobbs: 19 sessions or so,

[00:19] Bob Dobbs: we're going to tackle the text that I produced many months ago.

[00:28] Bob Dobbs: I say at the beginning...

[00:32] Bob Dobbs: After featuring these two quotes that we covered last week,

[00:38] Bob Dobbs: the road to understanding media effects begins with arrogant superiority,

[00:43] Bob Dobbs: and pollster activities are all espionage,

[00:46] Bob Dobbs: snooping on publics,

[00:48] Bob Dobbs: and politicians all have conflicts of interest.

[00:52] Bob Dobbs: So I said...

[00:54] Cameron McEwen: Like everybody else.

[00:55] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[00:57] Bob Dobbs: And I say,

[00:58] Bob Dobbs: I'm making a Marshall McLuhan kit of quotations nobody knows about.

[01:02] Bob Dobbs: That he said to get out of this cul-de-sac of 50 stuff that they repeat ad nauseum.

[01:08] Bob Dobbs: For example,

[01:08] Bob Dobbs: the medium is the message,

[01:10] Bob Dobbs: global village,

[01:11] Bob Dobbs: media ecology,

[01:12] Bob Dobbs: and the tetrad.

[01:14] Bob Dobbs: And I said later to

[01:16] Bob Dobbs: Ewen Cameron, I'm using McLuhan quotes and information that nobody uses.

[01:25] Bob Dobbs: So what do I start with?

[01:33] Bob Dobbs: The two quotes,

[01:35] Bob Dobbs: then,

[01:39] Bob Dobbs: well,

[01:40] Bob Dobbs: then there's another quote,

[01:41] Bob Dobbs: the third quote,

[01:41] Bob Dobbs: 1950,

[01:42] Bob Dobbs: 1959.

[01:46] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[01:47] Bob Dobbs: This means that we are increasingly,

[01:49] Bob Dobbs: says McLuhan,

[01:50] Bob Dobbs: insisting upon a do-it-yourself world,

[01:52] Bob Dobbs: whether in decision-making or in consumer goods,

[01:55] Bob Dobbs: and that on the overall pattern of social life we are re-tribalizing after centuries of de-tribalizing,

[02:01] Bob Dobbs: and that whereas we accomplished...

[02:03] Bob Dobbs: psychological decentralization by literacy and segmental analysis of all thought,

[02:06] Bob Dobbs: action,

[02:06] Bob Dobbs: and production,

[02:07] Bob Dobbs: we are accomplishing a psychological decentralization by the electronic,

[02:12] Bob Dobbs: which tends to put us in a kind of auditory world or field of simultaneous sound in which the intuitive man takes precedence over the analytic man.

[02:22] Bob Dobbs: Is there anything you would say about intuitive man or ask me about?

[02:28] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[02:30] Cameron McEwen: this letter,

[02:33] Cameron McEwen: from

[02:33] Cameron McEwen: May 1959 is actually a very important one.

[02:37] Cameron McEwen: For one thing,

[02:38] Cameron McEwen: it's the first time I know of that McLuhan mentioned the Global Village.

[02:45] Cameron McEwen: Most people,

[02:47] Cameron McEwen: when you read the

[02:49] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan scholars,

[02:52] Cameron McEwen: they nearly always say that

[02:54] Cameron McEwen: Understanding Media was the first place he mentioned Global Village,

[02:58] Cameron McEwen: 1964.

[03:00] Cameron McEwen: But that's completely...

[03:03] Cameron McEwen: Secondly,

[03:04] Cameron McEwen: this letter,

[03:05] Cameron McEwen: which was written to McLean's Hunter executive,

[03:10] Cameron McEwen: was basically a talk that McLuhan had given in Winnipeg,

[03:15] Cameron McEwen: which is where he grew up,

[03:17] Cameron McEwen: of course,

[03:18] Cameron McEwen: and where he first went to university.

[03:23] Cameron McEwen: And he,

[03:25] Cameron McEwen: in

[03:26] Cameron McEwen: I believe the letters,

[03:27] Cameron McEwen: four or five pages in the published letters,

[03:32] Cameron McEwen: So it's very long and very detailed.

[03:35] Cameron McEwen: And in it,

[03:39] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan was first saying to his hometown and then was hoping through McLean's magazine to be able to tell the country what he was saying

[03:54] Cameron McEwen: about the global village and about the sorts of things in the paragraph that you cite here.

[04:03] Cameron McEwen: on detribalizing and retribalizing.

[04:07] Cameron McEwen: But as you point out in your book,

[04:09] Cameron McEwen: the

[04:11] Cameron McEwen: McLean Center executive didn't understand the letter and nothing came of it.

[04:18] Cameron McEwen: It was just one more example of

[04:22] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan trying to communicate something that people have been trying to communicate for thousands of years and have never been able.

[04:32] Cameron McEwen: to communicate at all.

[04:35] Cameron McEwen: So here we are.

[04:36] Cameron McEwen: Great.

[04:44] Bob Dobbs: The reason

[04:46] Bob Dobbs: I selected this quote was to quickly summarize familiar aspects of McLuhan.

[04:52] Bob Dobbs: Retribalizing,

[04:53] Bob Dobbs: detribalizing,

[04:54] Bob Dobbs: it was a good quote,

[04:55] Bob Dobbs: and the simultaneous is a meaning for the electronic.

[05:00] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[05:00] Bob Dobbs: substitutable point there.

[05:02] Bob Dobbs: So it was a good little section to quickly get through the sort of semi-known parts of McLuhan.

[05:09] Bob Dobbs: Then get to,

[05:13] Bob Dobbs: what do I say?

[05:14] Bob Dobbs: I don't want to read everything Wright here,

[05:15] Bob Dobbs: but the guy wrote back,

[05:17] Bob Dobbs: I don't know what the hell you're talking about.

[05:19] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[05:20] Bob Dobbs: and now this is McLean Hunter.

[05:26] Bob Dobbs: McGraw Hill publishes his book.

[05:30] Bob Dobbs: In 1964,

[05:33] Bob Dobbs: did he get anywhere with McLean Hunter other than

[05:36] Bob Dobbs: 10 years later,

[05:37] Bob Dobbs: Peter Newman would interview Hillman?

[05:41] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[05:41] Cameron McEwen: So

[05:43] Cameron McEwen: McLean's magazine for those possible auditors who aren't Canadians is the most popular magazine in Canada,

[05:57] Cameron McEwen: I think you could say,

[05:58] Cameron McEwen: and has been for...

[06:00] Cameron McEwen: a great many years.

[06:02] Cameron McEwen: So

[06:04] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan was attempting to interest McLean's in what he was talking about in 59.

[06:11] Cameron McEwen: And as you just said,

[06:12] Cameron McEwen: he didn't succeed for another decade in actually doing so.

[06:17] Cameron McEwen: But in the

[06:19] Cameron McEwen: 1970s, when nobody was interested in McLuhan anymore,

[06:23] Cameron McEwen: then McLean's got interested.

[06:25] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[06:25] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[06:25] Bob Dobbs: Peter Newman did.

[06:27] Bob Dobbs: He was smart enough to keep up on McLuhan

[06:30] Bob Dobbs: less known writings.

[06:31] Bob Dobbs: He knew McLuhan was saying new stuff.

[06:36] Bob Dobbs: So he wanted to get it out there.

[06:37] Bob Dobbs: That's to his credit.

[06:40] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.

[06:41] Cameron McEwen: I don't know that he understood

[06:43] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan. What he did was he understood that there was something going on there that was newsworthy.

[06:51] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[06:51] Bob Dobbs: that was beyond what McLuhan,

[06:52] Bob Dobbs: the cliches were about McLuhan.

[06:56] Bob Dobbs: In other words,

[06:56] Bob Dobbs: you needed to hear the later stuff.

[06:57] Bob Dobbs: stuff to understand what he really meant by the early stuff.

[07:04] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[07:04] Cameron McEwen: but remember that he was also,

[07:08] Cameron McEwen: two sort of contrary processes were going on at the same time.

[07:13] Cameron McEwen: On the one hand,

[07:16] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan was constantly learning and constantly trying new ways of communicating,

[07:24] Cameron McEwen: constantly finding new ways of

[07:27] Cameron McEwen: saying what he wanted to say.

[07:29] Cameron McEwen: But on the other hand,

[07:30] Cameron McEwen: he was also getting sick or more sick all the time and sort of running out of energy and running out of patience.

[07:40] Cameron McEwen: So increasingly towards the end,

[07:45] Cameron McEwen: he compares his work to comedy and compares himself to a stand-up comic.

[07:54] Cameron McEwen: So there's these...

[07:57] Cameron McEwen: you could say there's three processes going on.

[08:00] Cameron McEwen: There's what you just mentioned,

[08:02] Cameron McEwen: the restating and clarifying of what he had said before.

[08:08] Cameron McEwen: So in that sense,

[08:10] Cameron McEwen: you could say talking about the same.

[08:13] Cameron McEwen: Then he was changing his approach,

[08:18] Cameron McEwen: changing his skit,

[08:21] Cameron McEwen: changing...

[08:23] Cameron McEwen: how he was attempting to communicate.

[08:25] Cameron McEwen: So in that sense,

[08:26] Cameron McEwen: he was doing something different and conceivably better.

[08:30] Cameron McEwen: And then there was the whole health thing,

[08:33] Cameron McEwen: which was conceivably working to the worst.

[08:39] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[08:40] Bob Dobbs: so moving down,

[08:49] Bob Dobbs: I say...

[08:50] Bob Dobbs: I want to show basically a summation quote of McLuhan in the 50s.

[08:53] Bob Dobbs: I said that.

[08:59] Cameron McEwen: You get into doing it yourself,

[09:02] Cameron McEwen: which is very,

[09:03] Cameron McEwen: very important for the cul-de-sac,

[09:06] Cameron McEwen: because if there aren't standards of reality,

[09:12] Cameron McEwen: of morality,

[09:13] Cameron McEwen: of truth,

[09:15] Cameron McEwen: if everything we see,

[09:18] Cameron McEwen: everything we do,

[09:19] Cameron McEwen: do everything that we think is important is just something of doing it yourself,

[09:30] Cameron McEwen: then,

[09:31] Cameron McEwen: as

[09:32] Cameron McEwen: Yeats said,

[09:33] Cameron McEwen: the center doesn't hold and things begin to disintegrate.

[09:38] Cameron McEwen: And so there's this sort of dual emphasis in McLuhan in the whole question of making.

[09:46] Cameron McEwen: On the one hand,

[09:48] Cameron McEwen: that humans...

[09:50] Cameron McEwen: have always made because when humans first use language

[09:56] Cameron McEwen: In a certain way,

[09:58] Cameron McEwen: they're making the world.

[10:00] Cameron McEwen: They're making themselves.

[10:03] Cameron McEwen: So it's a tremendous power.

[10:05] Cameron McEwen: But after hundreds of thousands of years,

[10:10] Cameron McEwen: that power has begun to disintegrate.

[10:15] Cameron McEwen: If we no longer make sense-making,

[10:21] Cameron McEwen: if that kind of circle comes back and eats its own tail,

[10:25] Cameron McEwen: you could say.

[10:29] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[10:29] Bob Dobbs: well,

[10:32] Bob Dobbs: my first point is something I wrote in spring 2017 after Trump elected and he was just starting to be president.

[10:47] Bob Dobbs: I say how President Donald Trump has become the first executive political leader to put on the shamanic tradition.

[10:53] Bob Dobbs: So

[10:55] Bob Dobbs: I.

[10:56] Bob Dobbs: I know people would not think Trump a shaman.

[10:59] Bob Dobbs: No way.

[11:01] Bob Dobbs: But

[11:02] Bob Dobbs: I was trying to point out that he was doing something that was new that might have been shamanic just by the fact that he took over the Twitter and went around the TV candidates and won that way.

[11:16] Bob Dobbs: So he was working with anti-environment that others weren't used to yet or even considering.

[11:24] Bob Dobbs: That's a new kind of techno artistry.

[11:32] Bob Dobbs: So then

[11:33] Bob Dobbs: I wanted to show,

[11:34] Bob Dobbs: since people were criticizing Trump character every day,

[11:40] Bob Dobbs: I thought,

[11:41] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[11:41] Bob Dobbs: let's bring in McLuhan pointer,

[11:43] Bob Dobbs: two schools of art.

[11:45] Bob Dobbs: And that's what I lay out,

[11:48] Bob Dobbs: and I thought,

[11:48] Bob Dobbs: that's a really neat thing to bring in.

[11:50] Bob Dobbs: No one even knows about these two schools of art.

[11:54] Bob Dobbs: that McLuhan built his work around at the beginning in the early

[11:59] Bob Dobbs: 50s. So should I read it,

[12:03] Bob Dobbs: read a section,

[12:04] Bob Dobbs: or just say that's what it is and the listener can look at the quote?

[12:08] Bob Dobbs: But there's the moral view of art,

[12:11] Bob Dobbs: which is cathartic and ethical,

[12:13] Bob Dobbs: and then there's the cognitive.

[12:15] Bob Dobbs: And the cathartic ethical moral view...

[12:21] Bob Dobbs: did not have an interest in popular art,

[12:24] Bob Dobbs: the low arts,

[12:26] Bob Dobbs: the popular folklore that was happening in the early

[12:33] Bob Dobbs: 50s. So

[12:36] Bob Dobbs: I said Trump was somebody engaged with the whole Fritz Senn of society,

[12:43] Bob Dobbs: like the cognitive artist.

[12:46] Bob Dobbs: And you shouldn't put value judgments on him.

[12:51] Bob Dobbs: ethical questions,

[12:52] Bob Dobbs: you're going to miss what he's going to do.

[12:54] Bob Dobbs: And he did manage to keep upsetting people's cognition of him,

[13:04] Bob Dobbs: and none of the moral accusations caught him,

[13:08] Bob Dobbs: did anything to him.

[13:09] Bob Dobbs: So

[13:11] Bob Dobbs: I was very proud to throw this into the

[13:14] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan world.

[13:17] Bob Dobbs: I thought,

[13:18] Bob Dobbs: nobody knows this quote other than Ewen Cameron.

[13:21] Bob Dobbs: And it's a clever way to bypass the normal outrage about

[13:30] Bob Dobbs: Trump moral character.

[13:32] Bob Dobbs: So what do you think of that?

[13:33] Bob Dobbs: Do you like what I did there?

[13:35] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[13:36] Cameron McEwen: sure.

[13:36] Cameron McEwen: Let me just make a few comments that will,

[13:41] Cameron McEwen: on the one hand,

[13:42] Cameron McEwen: try to enlarge on what you're saying.

[13:44] Cameron McEwen: And on the other,

[13:45] Cameron McEwen: we'll try to...

[13:51] Cameron McEwen: Kind of agree with the general tenor here of your thought.

[13:56] Cameron McEwen: First,

[13:57] Cameron McEwen: when you talk about the shamanic tradition,

[14:01] Cameron McEwen: one of the problems is that not only have people not thought much about anything that we're talking about here,

[14:12] Cameron McEwen: but especially they haven't thought about the shamanic tradition,

[14:16] Cameron McEwen: right?

[14:16] Cameron McEwen: So if somebody says

[14:18] Cameron McEwen: Trump...

[14:19] Cameron McEwen: falls into the shamanic tradition.

[14:23] Cameron McEwen: This is surprising because people only have one view Trump,

[14:30] Cameron McEwen: and that is sort of the unethical buffoon.

[14:34] Cameron McEwen: But they haven't done the necessary background work in order to focus what you're talking about.

[14:44] Cameron McEwen: They haven't thought about the shamanic tradition.

[14:47] Cameron McEwen: And then if we come to the quotation that you've got here,

[14:52] Cameron McEwen: we have to note that the critique

[14:57] Cameron McEwen: of the moralistic view of the world goes back to Nietzsche.

[15:03] Cameron McEwen: And what's being said here is that the moral view of the world is only a view,

[15:16] Cameron McEwen: and it's very unusual for people,

[15:20] Cameron McEwen: when they take a moral view of the world,

[15:22] Cameron McEwen: to admit that other views are even possible.

[15:26] Cameron McEwen: Right,

[15:26] Cameron McEwen: it's part of the moral view of the world to insist that it's the only correct view,

[15:34] Cameron McEwen: and there's something wrong with people that don't have it,

[15:39] Cameron McEwen: right,

[15:40] Cameron McEwen: simply because it is moral.

[15:43] Cameron McEwen: And so because it's the point of view and the appreciation that everybody should have,

[15:55] Cameron McEwen: then...

[15:56] Cameron McEwen: Popular art and uneducated people are rejected by it.

[16:03] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[16:04] Cameron McEwen: Everybody should be educated in just the same way as

[16:09] Cameron McEwen: I have been educated.

[16:11] Cameron McEwen: And what

[16:12] Cameron McEwen: I see is this kind of morality at work in the world.

[16:18] Cameron McEwen: And everybody should see that.

[16:20] Cameron McEwen: And if they don't,

[16:21] Cameron McEwen: I'm going to reeducate them.

[16:23] Cameron McEwen: I'm going to.

[16:24] Cameron McEwen: re-clothe them.

[16:25] Cameron McEwen: I may even take their children away so that they can be educated away from their buffoon family.

[16:36] Bob Dobbs: So the moral view leads to social engineering?

[16:42] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.

[16:44] Cameron McEwen: Social engineering isn't possible unless you have some great vision of how the world should be.

[16:53] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[16:54] Bob Dobbs: and that's part of his ancient core in modern America in the middle

[16:59] Bob Dobbs: 40s. The socialist engineers are the Dawkins versus the ones who look at what is,

[17:06] Bob Dobbs: the rhetoricians and the grammarians.

[17:09] Bob Dobbs: So it's the same,

[17:10] Bob Dobbs: and the cognitive is the same dialectic here.

[17:15] Cameron McEwen: Sort of.

[17:15] Cameron McEwen: The moral view of the world could be explicated,

[17:21] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[17:21] Cameron McEwen: by rhetoric.

[17:22] Cameron McEwen: or even by grammar and certainly by dialectic.

[17:27] Cameron McEwen: So it's not the case that the moral view of the world is just associated with one kind of exercise of mind.

[17:37] Cameron McEwen: But it is true.

[17:38] Cameron McEwen: He says in this quotation that the artist is not a reader of radiant signatures on the materia signata,

[17:50] Cameron McEwen: but the signer of a forged check.

[17:53] Cameron McEwen: And that's in the moral view.

[17:56] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[17:56] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[17:57] Cameron McEwen: So what McLuhan is saying is that the artist should be a reader of the radiant signatures,

[18:03] Cameron McEwen: and he should not be a signer of a forged check.

[18:08] Cameron McEwen: And the signer of the forged check is really the romantic artist,

[18:13] Cameron McEwen: the romantic who tries to cliché to archetype a certain moment in time as being

[18:23] Cameron McEwen: peculiarly significant as some sort of significant moment that everybody should pay attention to.

[18:33] Bob Dobbs: That's the signer side?

[18:36] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[18:36] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[18:36] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.

[18:37] Cameron McEwen: That's the signer of a forged check.

[18:40] Bob Dobbs: On our hopes and sympathies.

[18:42] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[18:44] Bob Dobbs: So the cognitive is the study and the effects.

[18:51] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[18:51] Cameron McEwen: it's relating.

[18:56] Cameron McEwen: It's relating anything,

[18:57] Cameron McEwen: really,

[18:59] Cameron McEwen: to a wider context.

[19:02] Cameron McEwen: It's refusing to capture everything in a moment of significance.

[19:09] Cameron McEwen: It opens up anything to look at its effects,

[19:13] Cameron McEwen: to look at its causes,

[19:15] Cameron McEwen: to look at what other causes could be there.

[19:20] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[19:21] Bob Dobbs: so I want to say...

[19:22] Bob Dobbs: I heard him say in a Monday night seminar to somebody,

[19:25] Bob Dobbs: Nietzsche studied the effects.

[19:29] Bob Dobbs: This fits into what you're saying about Nietzsche in your recent blog about nihilism.

[19:37] Bob Dobbs: Nietzsche is very similar to McLuhan,

[19:41] Bob Dobbs: or

[19:41] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan recognized the depth of Nietzsche cul-de-sac and is taking on,

[19:47] Bob Dobbs: perhaps even hoping to get what Nietzsche didn't get.

[19:51] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[19:53] Bob Dobbs: So...

[19:57] Bob Dobbs: This is the cognitive view.

[19:59] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[19:59] Bob Dobbs: so lay that out.

[20:03] Cameron McEwen: Before we move on,

[20:04] Cameron McEwen: let's just look at the last phrase,

[20:08] Cameron McEwen: the cultic toilet that you bring up there.

[20:12] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[20:12] Cameron McEwen: we're existing in the cultic toilet right now,

[20:15] Cameron McEwen: right?

[20:16] Cameron McEwen: It's the whole idea that the truth has been seen.

[20:25] Cameron McEwen: by the great moralists in Washington,

[20:29] Cameron McEwen: and they're going to reveal that great truth for the rest of us,

[20:36] Cameron McEwen: is exactly the cultic toilette.

[20:40] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[20:41] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan Innis period,

[20:44] Bob Dobbs: in the early 50s,

[20:45] Bob Dobbs: was looking at the cults of science and art and the different factions.

[20:51] Bob Dobbs: And so the cultic toilette is...

[20:54] Bob Dobbs: from Joyce,

[20:56] Bob Dobbs: and it's referring to the Celtic twilight.

[21:02] Bob Dobbs: But when you have the Celtic instead of Celtic,

[21:06] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan means the cults.

[21:08] Bob Dobbs: And it's actually the basis of secrecy is not viable anymore.

[21:14] Bob Dobbs: Everything is collectively conscious and exposed.

[21:19] Bob Dobbs: So it's the end of the cults of

[21:22] Bob Dobbs: Machiavelli.

[21:23] Bob Dobbs: or whatever management,

[21:24] Bob Dobbs: social engineering games elites are trying to do,

[21:30] Bob Dobbs: trying to put on the people.

[21:34] Bob Dobbs: I never thought of it that way.

[21:35] Bob Dobbs: What do you think of that?

[21:35] Bob Dobbs: The cultic,

[21:37] Bob Dobbs: the end of the cults of science and art.

[21:44] Cameron McEwen: Everything is exposed as cult.

[21:48] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[21:51] Cameron McEwen: Everything is exposed.

[21:53] Cameron McEwen: As being unoriginal,

[21:55] Cameron McEwen: as being some sort of,

[22:02] Cameron McEwen: as McLuhan says here,

[22:04] Cameron McEwen: it's Nessie-ums.

[22:06] Cameron McEwen: It is an example of not knowing.

[22:09] Cameron McEwen: And that's why the twilight in

[22:12] Cameron McEwen: Ireland that

[22:14] Cameron McEwen: Yeats was leading and was kind of championing the

[22:20] Cameron McEwen: Irish language.

[22:22] Cameron McEwen: and the

[22:22] Cameron McEwen: Irish church and the

[22:24] Cameron McEwen: Irish peasantry,

[22:27] Cameron McEwen: that all of this was cultic because it hadn't thought through how this

[22:42] Cameron McEwen: was to be interpreted in the widest possible way.

[22:47] Cameron McEwen: So when Joyce leaves Ireland,

[22:51] Cameron McEwen: What he's saying is there's a wider world out there,

[22:54] Cameron McEwen: folks.

[22:55] Cameron McEwen: If you want to champion all this stuff,

[22:58] Cameron McEwen: you've got to do so in terms of the wider world.

[23:02] Cameron McEwen: And until you do that,

[23:04] Cameron McEwen: then these legends and all this stuff that you're championing is just cult work.

[23:12] Cameron McEwen: And instead of being Twilight,

[23:14] Cameron McEwen: it's Toilet.

[23:15] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[23:16] Bob Dobbs: So let me see if I have something to say about this.

[23:20] Bob Dobbs: why I picked the shamanic tradition.

[23:25] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[23:25] Bob Dobbs: they say,

[23:25] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[23:26] Bob Dobbs: Trump wasn't a politician.

[23:27] Bob Dobbs: He was a businessman.

[23:29] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[23:30] Bob Dobbs: in modern techno society,

[23:33] Bob Dobbs: often the successful businessmen,

[23:37] Bob Dobbs: the giants,

[23:38] Bob Dobbs: were like mystics of techne,

[23:41] Bob Dobbs: and they became shamans in society,

[23:47] Bob Dobbs: shamans of industry.

[23:50] Bob Dobbs: But generally nobody of that modern wizardry ended up in the White House.

[24:02] Bob Dobbs: Eisenhower,

[24:03] Bob Dobbs: military guy.

[24:05] Bob Dobbs: FDR,

[24:06] Bob Dobbs: politician.

[24:08] Bob Dobbs: Wilson,

[24:08] Bob Dobbs: a politician.

[24:09] Bob Dobbs: Do you know of any?

[24:11] Bob Dobbs: Is there anybody who was unique and not a politician before Trump?

[24:20] Cameron McEwen: No,

[24:20] Cameron McEwen: you could say that what I liked about what you were just saying about the shamanic tradition and its relationship to the technology boys is that in

[24:36] Cameron McEwen: order to figure out how modern technology might be put to use and might generate wealth,

[24:45] Cameron McEwen: what you have to do is you have to start with the...

[24:48] Cameron McEwen: particular technology and then kind of lower yourself.

[24:53] Cameron McEwen: into all of the workings of the human community and then find a way of applying the technology to those ways of the wider community below it.

[25:08] Cameron McEwen: And that's what Amazon has done and what Facebook has done,

[25:12] Cameron McEwen: what Gates did with the operating system,

[25:15] Cameron McEwen: etc.

[25:16] Cameron McEwen: So politicians,

[25:19] Cameron McEwen: in a certain way,

[25:21] Cameron McEwen: had always...

[25:22] Cameron McEwen: been able to go into the crowd or go into the papers and take advantage of them.

[25:29] Cameron McEwen: That's what made them powerful politicians.

[25:33] Cameron McEwen: But Trump,

[25:36] Cameron McEwen: it seems like that process,

[25:39] Cameron McEwen: number one,

[25:40] Cameron McEwen: has been brought into the open,

[25:42] Cameron McEwen: and number two,

[25:43] Cameron McEwen: it's been satirized in a certain way.

[25:46] Bob Dobbs: Trump.

[25:48] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[25:48] Cameron McEwen: Trump,

[25:49] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.

[25:50] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[25:50] Bob Dobbs: that's a good point.

[25:51] Bob Dobbs: And I mean that,

[25:53] Bob Dobbs: or I meant it.

[25:55] Bob Dobbs: He also,

[25:58] Bob Dobbs: if shamans are slightly tricksters,

[26:00] Bob Dobbs: he's a trickster.

[26:02] Bob Dobbs: I'm talking about the primitive shamans.

[26:06] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan,

[26:06] Bob Dobbs: Robert Fulford said that McLuhan was an Eskimo.

[26:10] Bob Dobbs: That's a good guideline.

[26:12] Bob Dobbs: And have you seen that article?

[26:14] Bob Dobbs: Some guy out of Quebec talking about McLuhan in the centenary 2011.

[26:23] Bob Dobbs: No,

[26:23] Bob Dobbs: it wasn't him.

[26:24] Bob Dobbs: It was another guy that you and I couldn't figure out who he was or where he was from,

[26:28] Bob Dobbs: who said Trump probably read Playboy interview in March 69 with McLuhan and instinctively picked up some of the trickster aspects that McLuhan seemed to be implying in his own approach.

[26:44] Bob Dobbs: Do you remember that essay?

[26:46] Bob Dobbs: Did I send that to you?

[26:51] Cameron McEwen: That rings a bell.

[26:53] Cameron McEwen: with something that

[26:55] Cameron McEwen: Clinton put up.

[26:59] Cameron McEwen: I didn't bother to read it.

[27:01] Cameron McEwen: I don't read any secondary literature whatsoever,

[27:05] Cameron McEwen: but

[27:06] Cameron McEwen: I think something like that is in there.

[27:09] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[27:10] Bob Dobbs: So

[27:11] Bob Dobbs: Trump picked up on the media wizardry instinctively and the thesis of this guy is that

[27:21] Bob Dobbs: Trump applied McLuhan.

[27:23] Bob Dobbs: at least a vulgar version of McLuhan in terms of getting an advantage over the media anti-environment he was growing up into in New York City.

[27:35] Bob Dobbs: So those are the aspects I was thinking of when I said shamanic.

[27:40] Bob Dobbs: You could even say,

[27:41] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[27:41] Bob Dobbs: the Menippean tradition.

[27:44] Bob Dobbs: Menippean satire over the last thousand years is a response to new technical anti-environment.

[27:52] Bob Dobbs: That's why Manipulant Satire changes each phase.

[27:56] Bob Dobbs: That was Eric McLuhan thesis.

[28:01] Bob Dobbs: So,

[28:03] Bob Dobbs: I'm continuing.

[28:08] Bob Dobbs: What I have here is me explaining to somebody what the words meant,

[28:16] Bob Dobbs: the proper quotations or precise paragraphs I would...

[28:22] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[28:22] Bob Dobbs: Then I wanted to have an oral,

[28:24] Bob Dobbs: casual,

[28:26] Bob Dobbs: almost sloppy Explorations of it.

[28:29] Bob Dobbs: So

[28:30] Bob Dobbs: I was you'll see the quote.

[28:33] Bob Dobbs: That's supposed to be pretty outrageous.

[28:35] Bob Dobbs: Nobody thinks Trump a shaman.

[28:36] Bob Dobbs: Nobody thinks he's even human or has or he has any intelligence.

[28:39] Bob Dobbs: But the important point is,

[28:41] Bob Dobbs: I knew you could not apply ethics to Trump administration.

[28:44] Bob Dobbs: That was not an issue anymore.

[28:46] Bob Dobbs: And there were lots of reasons why that why that we're going to get into.

[28:51] Bob Dobbs: But forget the ethical view,

[28:53] Bob Dobbs: which is all that we have in the CNN world,

[28:55] Bob Dobbs: the outrage of Trump lack of ethics.

[28:57] Bob Dobbs: They can't keep up with the more charismatic,

[28:59] Bob Dobbs: cognitive style of art Trump does.

[29:02] Bob Dobbs: That's why I'm calling him a shaman,

[29:03] Bob Dobbs: expressing percepts over concepts.

[29:06] Bob Dobbs: So by almost saying the same thing in a conversational way,

[29:12] Bob Dobbs: I'm making sure that people get what I'm saying.

[29:16] Bob Dobbs: Because a lot of people read McLuhan as too opaque.

[29:19] Bob Dobbs: They don't have a clue how to do it.

[29:21] Bob Dobbs: But if you actually were visiting McLuhan at the coach house,

[29:24] Bob Dobbs: he would explain things,

[29:25] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[29:25] Bob Dobbs: quite easily.

[29:27] Bob Dobbs: You might find it hard to understand when you read it,

[29:29] Bob Dobbs: but back then his style was a new kind of writing,

[29:33] Bob Dobbs: it seemed.

[29:34] Bob Dobbs: So people now can read McLuhan easily,

[29:36] Bob Dobbs: but for some reason they had a big problem back then.

[29:40] Bob Dobbs: So what do you think of the way I run over the same stuff conversationally?

[29:48] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[29:51] Cameron McEwen: I would say that...

[29:54] Cameron McEwen: One of the questions that you're generating is,

[30:03] Cameron McEwen: Trump consciously doing this stuff as a kind of manager?

[30:11] Cameron McEwen: Or is he unconsciously or mostly unconsciously living out something else?

[30:19] Cameron McEwen: And where

[30:21] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan gave us good clues.

[30:23] Cameron McEwen: about how to read this something else.

[30:28] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[30:28] Bob Dobbs: definitely he's not conscious.

[30:31] Bob Dobbs: But that's what most of us aren't conscious the way we live today.

[30:36] Bob Dobbs: We haven't got time to become conscious or even figure out which is the right way.

[30:42] Bob Dobbs: And that's intuitive,

[30:43] Bob Dobbs: man.

[30:44] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[30:44] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.

[30:45] Cameron McEwen: That gets back to the quotation that you had from

[30:51] Cameron McEwen: McLean Hunter's guide.

[30:52] Cameron McEwen: Good point.

[30:53] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[30:54] Bob Dobbs: And Trump,

[30:58] Bob Dobbs: the world had not been able to articulate what was going on for decades.

[31:02] Bob Dobbs: But definitely after

[31:07] Bob Dobbs: 9-1-1 and after the 2012 Mayan projection,

[31:14] Bob Dobbs: so many things that people were waiting for.

[31:16] Bob Dobbs: The Christians thought something would happen in 2000,

[31:20] Bob Dobbs: or the fundamentalist Christians say.

[31:22] Bob Dobbs: So much had been stripped away and that we were winging it after the crash of 2008.

[31:30] Bob Dobbs: Trump actually,

[31:32] Bob Dobbs: he got in because he knew how to wing it.

[31:35] Bob Dobbs: And do you know that what he did is that he allowed,

[31:39] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[31:40] Bob Dobbs: M1 money category or money supply and then the M2.

[31:46] Bob Dobbs: He decided to let the dope dealers dump their money.

[31:51] Bob Dobbs: into the economy and not be taxed.

[31:54] Bob Dobbs: They'd all been hiding before that.

[31:56] Bob Dobbs: That was pretty outrageous,

[31:57] Bob Dobbs: but that created the abundance of circulation during his first four years.

[32:03] Bob Dobbs: So he was really,

[32:05] Bob Dobbs: now there is not being ethical,

[32:06] Bob Dobbs: so to speak,

[32:07] Bob Dobbs: allowing the dirty money of the black market to be part of the white market,

[32:13] Bob Dobbs: say,

[32:14] Bob Dobbs: was pretty original.

[32:20] Bob Dobbs: And then you're going to see that...

[32:24] Cameron McEwen: Let me just say,

[32:25] Cameron McEwen: Bob,

[32:25] Cameron McEwen: that one of the sort of key background moves that you're making with the book is that,

[32:36] Cameron McEwen: in effect,

[32:36] Cameron McEwen: you're saying,

[32:37] Cameron McEwen: look,

[32:38] Cameron McEwen: somebody can't become the President of the United States,

[32:43] Cameron McEwen: the most powerful position in the world,

[32:47] Cameron McEwen: by accident.

[32:50] Cameron McEwen: It's something that needs to be understood.

[32:53] Cameron McEwen: And then you say,

[32:56] Cameron McEwen: we certainly can understand it by saying he was an immoral idiot.

[33:02] Cameron McEwen: End of story.

[33:04] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[33:05] Cameron McEwen: That's to say he did become president by accident or something.

[33:11] Cameron McEwen: That's why you need something like Russian collusion or something to explain it.

[33:16] Cameron McEwen: But that's not to think,

[33:17] Cameron McEwen: obviously.

[33:18] Cameron McEwen: If we want to...

[33:19] Cameron McEwen: think about Trump.

[33:21] Cameron McEwen: We have to think about the forces that he represented,

[33:29] Cameron McEwen: the forces that perhaps outside of his consciousness and outside of his managerial ability,

[33:38] Cameron McEwen: forces that were realized in his election and in his presidency.

[33:47] Cameron McEwen: And so

[33:48] Cameron McEwen: In order to do that,

[33:51] Cameron McEwen: what you have to do in the book,

[33:53] Cameron McEwen: and what you attempt to do in the book certainly,

[33:56] Cameron McEwen: is you say,

[33:56] Cameron McEwen: well,

[33:57] Cameron McEwen: we have to look at these things in a different way.

[34:00] Cameron McEwen: We have to get our thought out of its usual ruts and try to understand the

[34:12] Cameron McEwen: Trump phenomenon as something that speaks to us.

[34:18] Cameron McEwen: and speaks of the age in which we're living.

[34:22] Cameron McEwen: So then you bring Trump,

[34:24] Cameron McEwen: and then you bring in the idea of getting away from some kind of ethical evaluation of the process and say that it needs to be understood conceptually.

[34:39] Cameron McEwen: It needs to be understood as a cognitive...

[34:46] Cameron McEwen: as something going on at the cognitive level,

[34:49] Cameron McEwen: put it that way.

[34:50] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[34:50] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[34:51] Bob Dobbs: I've run through all the presidents.

[34:52] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if I did it for you many episodes ago,

[34:55] Bob Dobbs: but I go back to...

[34:59] Bob Dobbs: Eisenhower and then Kennedy and Nixon.

[35:02] Bob Dobbs: I run through how each one is so appropriate for their time.

[35:06] Bob Dobbs: In retrospect,

[35:07] Bob Dobbs: you can see those guys were meant to be president for that period.

[35:12] Bob Dobbs: And

[35:12] Bob Dobbs: Trump an example of the latest version of that.

[35:16] Bob Dobbs: He was so perfect for what was really needed to be communicated from the White House to the American people.

[35:23] Bob Dobbs: And it wasn't just a political thing.

[35:25] Bob Dobbs: There's something about the White House,

[35:27] Bob Dobbs: which is the...

[35:30] Bob Dobbs: the tuner of the sky for the world environment,

[35:37] Bob Dobbs: that the occupant has to be appropriate.

[35:40] Bob Dobbs: So,

[35:40] Bob Dobbs: and that's,

[35:41] Bob Dobbs: I'm repeating what you were trying to say,

[35:45] Bob Dobbs: Trump was very appropriate for his time,

[35:47] Bob Dobbs: as every president was in their period.

[35:51] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[35:51] Bob Dobbs: after the orgy of

[35:55] Bob Dobbs: Web 1.0,

[35:55] Bob Dobbs: 93.

[35:57] Bob Dobbs: to 2000,

[35:59] Bob Dobbs: then the crash of the dot-com crash,

[36:01] Bob Dobbs: there was an exhaustion,

[36:03] Bob Dobbs: and therefore you had to have this tired,

[36:05] Bob Dobbs: empty guy,

[36:07] Bob Dobbs: George Bush Jr.,

[36:08] Bob Dobbs: you know what I mean?

[36:09] Bob Dobbs: Who didn't engage in information,

[36:11] Bob Dobbs: didn't read the papers,

[36:12] Bob Dobbs: didn't want to be informed.

[36:15] Bob Dobbs: It was so appropriate to have him after the hyper-informed Gore and Clinton team.

[36:22] Bob Dobbs: So

[36:24] Bob Dobbs: Trump so appropriate.

[36:29] Bob Dobbs: And if you think after the crash of 2008,

[36:32] Bob Dobbs: and the whole world is now involved in what McLuhan called the preliterate societies,

[36:39] Bob Dobbs: everybody was bound by scarcity and hardship.

[36:43] Bob Dobbs: There wasn't the rich-poor split of the,

[36:47] Bob Dobbs: say,

[36:48] Bob Dobbs: Gutenberg galaxy.

[36:49] Bob Dobbs: Everybody shared in the problem.

[36:51] Bob Dobbs: So there was a real tough way of getting out of the...

[36:55] Bob Dobbs: The crashed economy of 2008-2009 and there's all kinds of theories and movies trying to explain the way the economy got going again and where did the money come from.

[37:10] Bob Dobbs: But everybody was sharing it and so an image showed up that everybody could get involved in and that was the charisma Trump.

[37:19] Bob Dobbs: He got people voting who hadn't voted in decades,

[37:22] Bob Dobbs: supposedly,

[37:24] Bob Dobbs: right?

[37:25] Bob Dobbs: So...

[37:25] Bob Dobbs: He brought in HCE at a new level,

[37:30] Bob Dobbs: and it was the time when it was needed.

[37:33] Bob Dobbs: And that may explain why that election we just had was so intense for people and so polarized,

[37:40] Bob Dobbs: because everybody is involved now.

[37:43] Bob Dobbs: Everybody feels that they have a stake in how it turns out,

[37:46] Bob Dobbs: because it's getting pretty bad what we're doing,

[37:49] Bob Dobbs: or pretty ineffective.

[37:51] Bob Dobbs: So he was a good crisis.

[37:55] Bob Dobbs: Crisis actor.

[37:57] Bob Dobbs: And the fact that he was seen as so unqualified to do it.

[38:04] Bob Dobbs: There was a couple of points you were saying that made me think,

[38:06] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[38:06] Bob Dobbs: what did McLuhan say?

[38:08] Bob Dobbs: He predicted an actor would become president,

[38:11] Bob Dobbs: and that was Reagan.

[38:13] Bob Dobbs: But there were some other aspects Trump that I was thinking matched what McLuhan predicted was necessary.

[38:20] Bob Dobbs: But I can't remember them right now.

[38:21] Bob Dobbs: When you were talking five minutes ago.

[38:24] Cameron McEwen: One of the...

[38:25] Cameron McEwen: One of them is that

[38:27] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan, like Nietzsche,

[38:31] Cameron McEwen: kind of predicts what might be called the romanticization of the world.

[38:39] Cameron McEwen: And that relates to the quotation that you had,

[38:46] Cameron McEwen: the letter from

[38:50] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan to the hunter.

[38:53] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[38:54] Bob Dobbs: the 1959 letter.

[38:55] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[38:56] Cameron McEwen: so you have,

[38:58] Cameron McEwen: we are increasingly insisting on a do-it-yourself world,

[39:03] Cameron McEwen: whether in decision-making or consumer goods,

[39:06] Cameron McEwen: etc.,

[39:06] Cameron McEwen: etc.

[39:09] Cameron McEwen: When

[39:11] Cameron McEwen: Trump his TV show and was constantly firing people,

[39:17] Cameron McEwen: what

[39:19] Cameron McEwen: Trump living out was...

[39:22] Cameron McEwen: this idea that our thinking in the modern world,

[39:28] Cameron McEwen: because it has no foundation,

[39:31] Cameron McEwen: is always a kind of executive decision.

[39:36] Cameron McEwen: Everybody has become an executive of the world they live in.

[39:43] Cameron McEwen: And,

[39:43] Cameron McEwen: of course,

[39:45] Cameron McEwen: below that,

[39:46] Cameron McEwen: there's nothing,

[39:48] Cameron McEwen: right?

[39:50] Cameron McEwen: Although everybody has become what McLuhan called a Schoeck,

[39:56] Cameron McEwen: which is a Schoeck in McLuhan terms is a hijacker of reality.

[40:02] Bob Dobbs: Yep.

[40:03] Cameron McEwen: And everybody has become the executive of reality.

[40:09] Cameron McEwen: and

[40:10] Cameron McEwen: When everybody's the executive of reality,

[40:13] Cameron McEwen: there is no reality.

[40:14] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[40:15] Bob Dobbs: There's no executive either.

[40:17] Cameron McEwen: No,

[40:17] Cameron McEwen: that's right.

[40:20] Bob Dobbs: The executive is dropout.

[40:23] Bob Dobbs: Completely dropped out.

[40:26] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[40:26] Cameron McEwen: and so you would think Trump was the opposite of some of these things,

[40:32] Cameron McEwen: but he was the picture of them once he is looked at.

[40:40] Cameron McEwen: these other ways.

[40:41] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[40:42] Bob Dobbs: And he was a dropout through all phases of business life.

[40:46] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[40:47] Bob Dobbs: the crude interpretation was this guy was a liar and a failure at everything he did and stole.

[40:53] Bob Dobbs: No,

[40:54] Bob Dobbs: he just dropped out to the next situation.

[40:56] Bob Dobbs: And he dropped out of that.

[40:58] Bob Dobbs: And they even thought he was not going to drop out of the White House if he lost.

[41:04] Bob Dobbs: But he dropped out of that.

[41:08] Bob Dobbs: They missed the dropout aspect of him.

[41:12] Bob Dobbs: He's every man,

[41:13] Bob Dobbs: every human,

[41:15] Bob Dobbs: every chemical body up against this ridiculous thing.

[41:18] Bob Dobbs: And this is going to lead to the tech body,

[41:21] Bob Dobbs: right?

[41:21] Bob Dobbs: It's going to lead to another level Trump.

[41:25] Bob Dobbs: When I say shaman,

[41:27] Bob Dobbs: I did say anti-environment,

[41:28] Bob Dobbs: but there's stuff coming here that I'm trying to lead to that I haven't said yet.

[41:36] Bob Dobbs: in my description,

[41:37] Bob Dobbs: that the shaman angle might have to be dropped.

[41:43] Bob Dobbs: But that was what I said in 2017.

[41:47] Bob Dobbs: So now I'm trying to update that three years later in

[41:52] Bob Dobbs: 2020. Let's see.

[41:56] Cameron McEwen: Doesn't this relate to the

[41:57] Cameron McEwen: HCE aspect?

[42:00] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[42:00] Cameron McEwen: That

[42:03] Cameron McEwen: Trump...

[42:06] Cameron McEwen: By being everything that's wrong exposes aspects of

[42:15] Cameron McEwen: HCE that we need to bring into our consciousness in order to appreciate where we're at.

[42:28] Cameron McEwen: The whole moral view of the world is to reject stuff that is.

[42:35] Cameron McEwen: a part of who we are.

[42:38] Bob Dobbs: And that's why we come to the next part.

[42:40] Bob Dobbs: This book that I cite,

[42:42] Bob Dobbs: done by two Torontonians.

[42:47] Bob Dobbs: I knew them at CKLN in the 80s and 90s.

[42:54] Bob Dobbs: One of them was a DJ and the other was a friend of Dave Newfeld who I was hanging out with and Dave made the

[43:03] Bob Dobbs: Bob's Mini College album.

[43:04] Bob Dobbs: But Scott Woods,

[43:06] Bob Dobbs: he and his buddy put together this incredible book called Unshackled,

[43:10] Bob Dobbs: The Dustbin of Donald Trump.

[43:12] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[43:13] Bob Dobbs: all that we've just said about Trump,

[43:16] Bob Dobbs: and maybe even the nihilism aspect,

[43:19] Bob Dobbs: is Innis book.

[43:19] Bob Dobbs: So what they do,

[43:20] Bob Dobbs: they ransack pop culture from the

[43:23] Bob Dobbs: 60s on.

[43:24] Bob Dobbs: Every kind of character,

[43:26] Bob Dobbs: every kind of odd movie,

[43:28] Bob Dobbs: every kind of weird phenomenon,

[43:30] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[43:31] Bob Dobbs: from Ross Perot,

[43:32] Bob Dobbs: say,

[43:33] Bob Dobbs: across the culture.

[43:34] Bob Dobbs: And it's a great inventory of everything.

[43:37] Bob Dobbs: And so

[43:38] Bob Dobbs: Donald Trump was the completion of all these attempts.

[43:42] Bob Dobbs: Did you ever see the movie

[43:45] Bob Dobbs: Bob Roberts?

[43:46] Bob Dobbs: I think that's what it was called.

[43:49] Bob Dobbs: I'm just naming one.

[43:52] Bob Dobbs: You don't know that one.

[43:53] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[43:54] Bob Dobbs: But the thing is,

[43:57] Bob Dobbs: the dustbin of Donald Trump is already here before he's president.

[44:04] Bob Dobbs: Because it includes all the everybody's of eccentric performers in different arts,

[44:12] Bob Dobbs: sciences,

[44:13] Bob Dobbs: and sports are Innis great inventory.

[44:16] Bob Dobbs: Just to read the book,

[44:17] Bob Dobbs: it reminds you of all kinds of things that happened over the last

[44:20] Bob Dobbs: 50, say 1960,

[44:23] Bob Dobbs: 60 years that are the dustbin.

[44:29] Bob Dobbs: What all these people attempted to do,

[44:32] Bob Dobbs: they all tried to be a Donald Trump.

[44:34] Bob Dobbs: And Trump shows up as an afterimage of it,

[44:38] Bob Dobbs: a clarity of it,

[44:39] Bob Dobbs: after it's not ground anymore,

[44:45] Bob Dobbs: when it's obsolete.

[44:47] Bob Dobbs: See,

[44:48] Bob Dobbs: Trump showing the obsolescence of so many things,

[44:53] Bob Dobbs: of all the dropout postures everybody did.

[44:58] Bob Dobbs: He was a curious,

[44:59] Bob Dobbs: what would you say,

[45:00] Bob Dobbs: a double duty and tarot bang of himself before he became president.

[45:07] Bob Dobbs: And then when he was president,

[45:08] Bob Dobbs: nobody can define what the hell happened because it was nothing.

[45:15] Bob Dobbs: Now that gets into your nihilism.

[45:17] Bob Dobbs: How would you relate to Nietzsche,

[45:18] Bob Dobbs: to this nihilism of his presidency?

[45:23] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[45:23] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[45:24] Cameron McEwen: I like what you were just suggesting.

[45:26] Cameron McEwen: a moment ago and that was that

[45:29] Cameron McEwen: Trump exposed the psychological decentralization of everything.

[45:35] Cameron McEwen: So Trump becomes president,

[45:41] Cameron McEwen: what he exposes is the nullity of the presidency,

[45:46] Cameron McEwen: which is a catastrophic event.

[45:55] Cameron McEwen: in history,

[45:57] Cameron McEwen: right?

[46:01] Cameron McEwen: The catastrophe in

[46:05] Cameron McEwen: Greek is the turning over of the furrow when you're plowing a field.

[46:11] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[46:12] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[46:13] Cameron McEwen: So by exposing the nullity of all things,

[46:21] Cameron McEwen: Trump identifying where we're at.

[46:25] Cameron McEwen: at and was,

[46:29] Cameron McEwen: of course,

[46:31] Cameron McEwen: eliciting all kinds of outrage cries.

[46:38] Cameron McEwen: Panic,

[46:39] Bob Dobbs: hysteria,

[46:40] Bob Dobbs: schizophrenia,

[46:41] Bob Dobbs: paranoia,

[46:42] Bob Dobbs: and ecstasy.

[46:44] Cameron McEwen: All of the above.

[46:45] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[46:45] Cameron McEwen: not too much ecstasy.

[46:46] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[46:47] Cameron McEwen: no,

[46:47] Cameron McEwen: no.

[46:48] Bob Dobbs: Trump followers,

[46:49] Bob Dobbs: the rallies.

[46:50] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[46:51] Cameron McEwen: If you want to include them,

[46:52] Cameron McEwen: yes.

[46:53] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[46:53] Cameron McEwen: I was.

[46:54] Cameron McEwen: I was.

[46:54] Cameron McEwen: thinking of the Trump or the never-Trumpers.

[46:58] Bob Dobbs: No,

[46:59] Bob Dobbs: no.

[47:00] Bob Dobbs: They were the other four.

[47:01] Cameron McEwen: You're right.

[47:02] Cameron McEwen: The response came from the whole spectrum of

[47:06] Cameron McEwen: HCE.

[47:07] Bob Dobbs: Yeah. Right?

[47:09] Cameron McEwen: In a certain way,

[47:10] Cameron McEwen: that's what

[47:12] Cameron McEwen: Trump.

[47:14] Cameron McEwen: You could say that he was like a prism,

[47:18] Cameron McEwen: and the light goes into the prism and then comes out as the spectrum.

[47:24] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[47:24] Cameron McEwen: Of color.

[47:25] Bob Dobbs: And that's what

[47:26] Bob Dobbs: Trump realized my Tiny Note chart.

[47:30] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[47:31] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[47:31] Cameron McEwen: I was going to bring out a minute ago that when you were talking about the presidents and then when you were talking about everything that happened after 2000 and the unshackled dustbin,

[47:47] Cameron McEwen: all of these things are reminiscent of the Tiny Note chart.

[47:51] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[47:51] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[47:52] Cameron McEwen: They're either already included in it or they're things that you could include in it if you updated it.

[47:59] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[47:59] Bob Dobbs: and one of the authors of Unshackled,

[48:03] Bob Dobbs: Scott Woods,

[48:04] Bob Dobbs: does mention Dave and I as people he learned a lot in our discussions by email or whatever that helped him figure out how to do the book.

[48:14] Bob Dobbs: So I'm actually quoting a book that I had a part in,

[48:18] Bob Dobbs: inspired.

[48:22] Bob Dobbs: this person,

[48:24] Bob Dobbs: we were on an email,

[48:26] Bob Dobbs: small

[48:27] Bob Dobbs: 10 people circle emailing through Trump years after they produced this brilliant book,

[48:34] Bob Dobbs: and

[48:35] Bob Dobbs: Trump too much for him.

[48:37] Bob Dobbs: He couldn't Trump.

[48:38] Bob Dobbs: It got worse.

[48:41] Bob Dobbs: He eventually got quite pissed off at Dave who was sort of Trump or didn't like the animosity to him.

[48:51] Bob Dobbs: So the guy didn't survive his own book.

[48:59] Bob Dobbs: Are you there?

[49:01] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[49:01] Cameron McEwen: yeah,

[49:01] Cameron McEwen: I'm here.

[49:01] Cameron McEwen: So the guy that wrote the book,

[49:04] Cameron McEwen: is he a Toronto guy?

[49:05] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[49:06] Bob Dobbs: and a very good childhood friend of Dave Newfeld.

[49:10] Bob Dobbs: And they basically,

[49:13] Bob Dobbs: he produced the book in 2016 or so.

[49:16] Bob Dobbs: Trump gets elected.

[49:19] Bob Dobbs: Then...

[49:22] Bob Dobbs: He doesn't know what to really,

[49:23] Bob Dobbs: he can't,

[49:23] Bob Dobbs: it's stretching his ability to be a person,

[49:28] Bob Dobbs: what Trump doing.

[49:29] Bob Dobbs: It's violating everything.

[49:30] Bob Dobbs: And so he and Dave got in a big argument,

[49:33] Bob Dobbs: went on for years,

[49:34] Bob Dobbs: and they eventually sort of lost their friendship.

[49:39] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[49:39] Bob Dobbs: we Trump cause this all over the place among friends.

[49:44] Bob Dobbs: But the guy who made a brilliant book about Trump couldn't Trump even.

[49:52] Bob Dobbs: Even though he kind of thought he understood Trump,

[49:54] Bob Dobbs: he couldn't take it.

[49:56] Bob Dobbs: And he couldn't take

[49:58] Bob Dobbs: Dave's not being so upset Trump as

[50:02] Bob Dobbs: Scott was.

[50:03] Bob Dobbs: So that was an interesting side effect that happened after the book.

[50:10] Bob Dobbs: Go ahead.

[50:11] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[50:12] Cameron McEwen: it identifies one of the things that you're trying to do in the book,

[50:16] Cameron McEwen: and that is you're trying to open up a space where

[50:21] Cameron McEwen: a value judgment or an aesthetic judgment is not exercised.

[50:27] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[50:27] Cameron McEwen: What you're trying to do is you're trying to say what's going on here,

[50:33] Cameron McEwen: and you're trying to take the widest possible perspective,

[50:38] Cameron McEwen: and that means appreciating this,

[50:42] Cameron McEwen: what we are just calling the prismatic phenomenon Trump.

[50:47] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[50:49] Bob Dobbs: So

[50:49] Bob Dobbs: I see.

[50:49] Bob Dobbs: say many smart and ambitious people have even become president,

[50:55] Bob Dobbs: but they never had the autonomous medium like Twitter to present a program for our perceptual edification.

[51:01] Bob Dobbs: Trump realized this opportunity to present challenges to our very organs of sensory apprehension rather than just to the world of ideas and social reform.

[51:11] Bob Dobbs: All shamans,

[51:12] Bob Dobbs: gurus,

[51:12] Bob Dobbs: and seers attempt to reveal anti-environment that their fellow motivated somnambulists aren't noticing.

[51:19] Bob Dobbs: In a world of multitudinous claims from conflicting cultures,

[51:22] Bob Dobbs: memes,

[51:23] Bob Dobbs: and values,

[51:24] Bob Dobbs: most presidents withdraw from providing an anti-environment,

[51:29] Bob Dobbs: most presidents withdraw from providing an anti-environment to the Android Meme and do nothing.

[51:33] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[51:34] Bob Dobbs: we have,

[51:35] Bob Dobbs: Nelson had a recording of McLuhan in class around 1974 and 1975,

[51:41] Bob Dobbs: and he was explaining,

[51:43] Bob Dobbs: if you were actually president of the United States,

[51:45] Bob Dobbs: there's so much you're involved in.

[51:48] Bob Dobbs: So many anti-environment that you represent that you could do nothing but nothing.

[51:52] Bob Dobbs: You could only do nothing.

[51:55] Bob Dobbs: And that's what I'm thinking of here.

[51:56] Bob Dobbs: Most presidents withdraw from providing an anti-environment to the Android Meme and do nothing.

[52:02] Bob Dobbs: And they never thought of using the most powerful cliché anti-environment the world to bypass social engineering issues,

[52:08] Bob Dobbs: moral issues or ethical issues,

[52:11] Bob Dobbs: and engage citizens on a level of sensory challenge.

[52:15] Bob Dobbs: The plateau of great artists and...

[52:17] Bob Dobbs: scientists from Picasso,

[52:18] Bob Dobbs: Einstein,

[52:18] Bob Dobbs: and Frank Zappa to Mae Brussell,

[52:20] Bob Dobbs: Marshall McLuhan,

[52:21] Bob Dobbs: and Dr.

[52:22] Bob Dobbs: Carolyn Dean.

[52:23] Bob Dobbs: I stuck in my bride.

[52:26] Bob Dobbs: To the cathartic school,

[52:28] Bob Dobbs: this seems an irresponsible abandonment of duty and commitment to honored institutional purposes as expressed in a recent broadcast of Morning Joe.

[52:37] Bob Dobbs: And I would just take a link of any Morning Joe,

[52:41] Bob Dobbs: because they were always having problems Trump.

[52:45] Cameron McEwen: Still are.

[52:46] Cameron McEwen: Still are.

[52:47] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[52:49] Cameron McEwen: I don't watch it,

[52:50] Cameron McEwen: but every once in a while

[52:52] Cameron McEwen: I see some quotation of what

[52:57] Cameron McEwen: Joe Scarborough had said that day.

[53:00] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[53:01] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[53:04] Bob Dobbs: I just noticed my link is not there,

[53:07] Bob Dobbs: but

[53:08] Bob Dobbs: I have a footnote.

[53:08] Bob Dobbs: Maybe the footnote.

[53:09] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[53:09] Bob Dobbs: it's probably down on the footnote.

[53:11] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[53:11] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[53:13] Bob Dobbs: So who would Joe?

[53:17] Bob Dobbs: Joe,

[53:17] Bob Dobbs: I don't even remember his name.

[53:18] Bob Dobbs: Joe and his...

[53:20] Bob Dobbs: What?

[53:22] Cameron McEwen: Joe Scarborough.

[53:24] Bob Dobbs: Barbara?

[53:25] Cameron McEwen: No,

[53:26] Cameron McEwen: Scarborough.

[53:26] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[53:26] Bob Dobbs: Scarborough,

[53:27] Bob Dobbs: right.

[53:28] Bob Dobbs: And the woman was,

[53:30] Bob Dobbs: I think they got married,

[53:32] Bob Dobbs: she was the big new Brzezinski's daughter.

[53:35] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[53:37] Bob Dobbs: And in a book by a McLuhan in England,

[53:39] Bob Dobbs: who got access to the KGB files,

[53:42] Bob Dobbs: a very interesting book showing how...

[53:46] Bob Dobbs: The KGB and the CIA studied McLuhan going back to the

[53:51] Bob Dobbs: 50s, and

[53:54] Bob Dobbs: Brzezinski was a McLuhan,

[53:56] Bob Dobbs: and he made a famous quote,

[53:58] Bob Dobbs: which I don't remember right now,

[53:59] Bob Dobbs: but it showed him understanding the techno president phenomenon that was coming.

[54:08] Bob Dobbs: She's on there,

[54:09] Bob Dobbs: not able to,

[54:10] Bob Dobbs: she has her father's,

[54:12] Bob Dobbs: should have taught her some McLuhan stuff that he knew about.

[54:17] Bob Dobbs: So she'd get out of her ethical view of everything.

[54:20] Bob Dobbs: Because I say that she and Joe,

[54:22] Bob Dobbs: with all their sneering ethical superiority,

[54:25] Bob Dobbs: note how they miss the probing and prompting Trump in a style they regard as trivial.

[54:31] Bob Dobbs: But Newhart always appears ugly.

[54:34] Bob Dobbs: Donald Trump,

[54:34] Bob Dobbs: the apophenia maven,

[54:36] Bob Dobbs: has created a new role in the beltway bubble that bypasses the epyllion classifying hasty accusation.

[54:43] Bob Dobbs: Now this is a line from the end of

[54:47] Bob Dobbs: Ancient Quarrel in Modern America,

[54:49] Bob Dobbs: the last essay in Interior landscape,

[54:53] Bob Dobbs: in an essay he wrote in 1946,

[54:55] Bob Dobbs: the Ancient Quarrel in Modern America,

[54:57] Bob Dobbs: where McLuhan was criticizing how basically debate was a hasty accusation.

[55:04] Bob Dobbs: A hasty accusation.

[55:05] Bob Dobbs: and then met with a warm rejoinder.

[55:10] Bob Dobbs: If you look it up,

[55:11] Bob Dobbs: you'll see.

[55:12] Bob Dobbs: I'm saying he bypassed the precipice of the recipients classifying hasty accusation and warm rejoinder of the alt-left,

[55:23] Bob Dobbs: alt-center,

[55:24] Bob Dobbs: and even the alt-right.

[55:26] Bob Dobbs: So that was a pretty interesting embed I made right out of McLuhan.

[55:31] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[55:32] Cameron McEwen: So let me just...

[55:33] Cameron McEwen: make a few remarks about that.

[55:37] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan ancient quarrel,

[55:40] Cameron McEwen: which is a phrase that appears in his thesis,

[55:44] Cameron McEwen: is of the three trivial arts.

[55:48] Cameron McEwen: And that ends in

[55:51] Cameron McEwen: 1600. It goes 2,500 years from 500 B.C.

[55:58] Cameron McEwen: to the year...

[56:01] Cameron McEwen: I'm sorry,

[56:01] Cameron McEwen: it goes...

[56:02] Cameron McEwen: 2,000 years from

[56:06] Cameron McEwen: 400 to 1,600.

[56:08] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[56:08] Cameron McEwen: So then he,

[56:10] Cameron McEwen: then,

[56:10] Cameron McEwen: but McLuhan believed that it didn't stop then,

[56:13] Cameron McEwen: that debate.

[56:14] Cameron McEwen: It kept going into modern America.

[56:17] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[56:17] Cameron McEwen: So in 1944,

[56:21] Cameron McEwen: actually,

[56:22] Cameron McEwen: he already gave a lecture on the continuation of his thesis.

[56:27] Cameron McEwen: And that 1944 lecture in St.

[56:30] Cameron McEwen: Louis.

[56:31] Cameron McEwen: then was published in January of 46 in the classical journal.

[56:39] Cameron McEwen: So when he's talking about the warm rejoiner there,

[56:43] Cameron McEwen: what he's talking about is the way that academics and the way media actually go about their business.

[56:56] Cameron McEwen: No real issues are enjoined.

[56:58] Cameron McEwen: There's just...

[56:59] Cameron McEwen: He said that,

[57:00] Cameron McEwen: and she said this,

[57:02] Cameron McEwen: and he said this,

[57:03] Cameron McEwen: and she said that again,

[57:05] Cameron McEwen: and you can make a whole career out of that.

[57:09] Cameron McEwen: That's basically what modern America is,

[57:12] Cameron McEwen: right?

[57:13] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[57:13] Bob Dobbs: the talking heads.

[57:15] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[57:15] Cameron McEwen: that's right.

[57:17] Cameron McEwen: So one of the things that people were looking for,

[57:20] Cameron McEwen: I'm conscious.

[57:23] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[57:23] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[57:24] Bob Dobbs: you blipped out.

[57:25] Bob Dobbs: What's happening there?

[57:26] Cameron McEwen: Wait,

[57:27] Cameron McEwen: wait,

[57:27] Bob Dobbs: you missed a few words.

[57:29] Bob Dobbs: Do that again.

[57:30] Bob Dobbs: So what we're witnessing...

[57:33] Cameron McEwen: People were looking for an end to the talking heads,

[57:38] Cameron McEwen: the he said,

[57:39] Cameron McEwen: she said phenomenon,

[57:41] Cameron McEwen: right?

[57:41] Cameron McEwen: And so

[57:43] Cameron McEwen: Trump you're fired is the kind of executive decision that people were looking for on another level.

[57:54] Cameron McEwen: They were looking for an end to the bullshit that was...

[57:58] Cameron McEwen: going on night and day.

[58:00] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[58:01] Bob Dobbs: and no more news,

[58:02] Bob Dobbs: just opinion and nihilistically going on.

[58:11] Cameron McEwen: Oh yeah,

[58:12] Cameron McEwen: amounting to nothing,

[58:13] Cameron McEwen: for sure.

[58:14] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[58:15] Bob Dobbs: that's what McLuhan,

[58:16] Bob Dobbs: why he recommended turning off the

[58:18] Bob Dobbs: Anti-environment.

[58:20] Bob Dobbs: He saw the nihilism that would come as TV exhausted its opportunities or

[58:26] Bob Dobbs: imagination of content.

[58:30] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[58:30] Bob Dobbs: they were exhausted by,

[58:32] Bob Dobbs: let's say,

[58:32] Bob Dobbs: 1980.

[58:34] Bob Dobbs: But what kinds of TV to make?

[58:38] Bob Dobbs: Maybe even exhausted by 1970.

[58:44] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[58:46] Cameron McEwen: I don't know that

[58:48] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan was worried about repetition.

[58:53] Cameron McEwen: He...

[58:54] Cameron McEwen: recognize that everything is repetition in a sense and and that's why retrieval

[59:01] Cameron McEwen: is important and why instant replay is important.

[59:09] Cameron McEwen: It comes to some kind of understanding about that.

[59:13] Cameron McEwen: But McLuhan said that

[59:14] Cameron McEwen: TV was the first medium of tactility.

[59:20] Cameron McEwen: And what he meant by that is that in order to understand TV,

[59:26] Cameron McEwen: you have to be able to connect the dots.

[59:30] Cameron McEwen: connecting the dots is sort of what being human is all about.

[59:35] Cameron McEwen: So if you,

[59:36] Cameron McEwen: the TV had two possibilities.

[59:39] Cameron McEwen: Either you could be horrified by the lack of connection between the dots,

[59:49] Cameron McEwen: or you could take advantage of the lack of connection between the dots and understand what was going on.

[59:56] Cameron McEwen: So from

[59:58] Cameron McEwen: In 1970,

[59:59] Cameron McEwen: let's say,

[1:00:00] Cameron McEwen: until now,

[1:00:01] Cameron McEwen: 50 years,

[1:00:02] Cameron McEwen: all we've had is the horror.

[1:00:05] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:00:06] Cameron McEwen: We've had no connecting of the dots.

[1:00:09] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:00:09] Bob Dobbs: you know how people say

[1:00:12] Bob Dobbs: Newton brought in a new image of the brain or of cognition with the clock and the universe,

[1:00:19] Bob Dobbs: and you can look at each technological phase that...

[1:00:26] Bob Dobbs: Humans turned into a metaphor for their cognitive processes.

[1:00:30] Bob Dobbs: And then when the computer took over,

[1:00:33] Bob Dobbs: people started talking about downloading this and that.

[1:00:35] Bob Dobbs: So the content of the computer became metaphors for people's cognitive processes.

[1:00:42] Bob Dobbs: But you just brought a point here.

[1:00:45] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan said that when you watch TV,

[1:00:48] Bob Dobbs: you have to make a pattern out of the dots.

[1:00:51] Bob Dobbs: You've got to connect the dots.

[1:00:53] Bob Dobbs: And then that phrase has become...

[1:00:55] Bob Dobbs: such a major term in the world of hasty accusation and warm rejoinder that it's a good example of people becoming what they behold and it becomes a metaphor

[1:01:10] Bob Dobbs: of the cognitive process everybody has to engage in.

[1:01:13] Bob Dobbs: Everybody has to make the news.

[1:01:15] Bob Dobbs: Everybody has to connect the dots.

[1:01:17] Bob Dobbs: Maybe social status is based on your ability to connect the dots.

[1:01:23] Bob Dobbs: In a world where McLuhan said,

[1:01:24] Bob Dobbs: the only job is to keep up with knowing,

[1:01:27] Bob Dobbs: that means connecting the dots.

[1:01:30] Bob Dobbs: And of course,

[1:01:31] Bob Dobbs: more and more each decade unfolded,

[1:01:33] Bob Dobbs: people were connecting the dots to nothing,

[1:01:35] Bob Dobbs: of nothing,

[1:01:36] Bob Dobbs: from nothing,

[1:01:38] Bob Dobbs: and giving up on pattern recognition and bothering to connect the dots.

[1:01:44] Bob Dobbs: So it became a scarce commodity,

[1:01:48] Bob Dobbs: connecting the dots.

[1:01:51] Bob Dobbs: I've always,

[1:01:52] Bob Dobbs: when I meet...

[1:01:52] Bob Dobbs: People that I talk to go on the beach,

[1:01:55] Bob Dobbs: if they're pissed off at the general,

[1:01:58] Bob Dobbs: here comes everybody,

[1:01:59] Bob Dobbs: they'll say,

[1:02:00] Bob Dobbs: nobody's connecting the dots.

[1:02:04] Bob Dobbs: That is the most common complaint I hear.

[1:02:07] Bob Dobbs: Of course,

[1:02:08] Bob Dobbs: I don't go into how you're quoting McLuhan.

[1:02:10] Bob Dobbs: I just think about it myself.

[1:02:13] Cameron McEwen: But

[1:02:14] Cameron McEwen: Bob,

[1:02:16] Cameron McEwen: I'd be interested to hear how a sample itinerary goes.

[1:02:22] Cameron McEwen: When you go to the beach,

[1:02:24] Cameron McEwen: do you just go from group to group and talk to people that are down there?

[1:02:30] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:02:31] Bob Dobbs: no,

[1:02:31] Bob Dobbs: it's quite a story.

[1:02:32] Bob Dobbs: It's quite a story.

[1:02:34] Cameron McEwen: Fire away.

[1:02:35] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:02:36] Bob Dobbs: I have told several people this recently.

[1:02:39] Bob Dobbs: You have not heard what I'm going to say,

[1:02:40] Bob Dobbs: I assume.

[1:02:41] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:02:43] Bob Dobbs: I've been living here for 13 years.

[1:02:45] Bob Dobbs: It'll be 13 years in June.

[1:02:47] Bob Dobbs: Going to the beach pretty well every day,

[1:02:51] Bob Dobbs: going in the water.

[1:02:52] Bob Dobbs: Except for Tuesdays and Thursdays where I do my radio show and I have to get back no time to get in the water.

[1:02:58] Bob Dobbs: But I walk every day and swim five of those days.

[1:03:02] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:03:02] Bob Dobbs: it's been very busy all these 13 years until COVID.

[1:03:06] Bob Dobbs: When COVID happened,

[1:03:07] Bob Dobbs: there was nobody on the walkway.

[1:03:09] Bob Dobbs: Hardly anybody.

[1:03:10] Bob Dobbs: And it's a

[1:03:14] Bob Dobbs: 35-minute walk to where I go in the water.

[1:03:18] Cameron McEwen: That's the walkway?

[1:03:20] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:03:20] Bob Dobbs: it's along the beach.

[1:03:22] Bob Dobbs: The beach path.

[1:03:24] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[1:03:24] Bob Dobbs: I go down through a golf course,

[1:03:26] Bob Dobbs: wonderful environment,

[1:03:28] Bob Dobbs: and then I get down to the beach,

[1:03:29] Bob Dobbs: and then I have to walk perpendicular,

[1:03:33] Bob Dobbs: 90-degree angle,

[1:03:34] Bob Dobbs: along the water.

[1:03:35] Bob Dobbs: I walk down,

[1:03:36] Bob Dobbs: and then I turn left,

[1:03:38] Bob Dobbs: and it's,

[1:03:40] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:03:41] Bob Dobbs: 80%

[1:03:41] Bob Dobbs: of the...

[1:03:41] Cameron McEwen: Like a bike path or something?

[1:03:44] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:03:44] Bob Dobbs: but it's a walk path.

[1:03:46] Bob Dobbs: It's along the beach.

[1:03:47] Bob Dobbs: It's in front of the hotels.

[1:03:49] Bob Dobbs: It's a beautiful walk.

[1:03:51] Bob Dobbs: Incredible.

[1:03:52] Bob Dobbs: And,

[1:03:52] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:03:52] Bob Dobbs: you look at the waves and that,

[1:03:54] Bob Dobbs: you're very close to the ocean,

[1:03:56] Bob Dobbs: yet you're on a cement walkway.

[1:03:58] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:03:59] Bob Dobbs: I was anonymous for 12 years.

[1:04:01] Bob Dobbs: Just another guy.

[1:04:03] Bob Dobbs: What is that?

[1:04:04] Bob Dobbs: What if God was just another one of us?

[1:04:06] Bob Dobbs: What's that song?

[1:04:08] Bob Dobbs: Another slob on the bus.

[1:04:11] Bob Dobbs: But when I went in the water.

[1:04:13] Bob Dobbs: I did what no one else did.

[1:04:15] Bob Dobbs: I swam.

[1:04:16] Bob Dobbs: I did long distance swimming.

[1:04:18] Bob Dobbs: I'd swim for 45 minutes and I'd do laps up and down this long beach,

[1:04:23] Bob Dobbs: whereas everybody else is attempting to surf or boogie board or bounce up and down.

[1:04:28] Bob Dobbs: Nobody swims,

[1:04:29] Bob Dobbs: especially long distance.

[1:04:31] Bob Dobbs: So occasionally

[1:04:33] Bob Dobbs: I'd come out of the water like once every two months through the years.

[1:04:37] Bob Dobbs: I'd walk up onto the beach,

[1:04:39] Bob Dobbs: different kinds of Decad Dance,

[1:04:41] Bob Dobbs: but...

[1:04:42] Bob Dobbs: people would start applauding.

[1:04:44] Bob Dobbs: They noticed me swimming,

[1:04:46] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:04:47] Bob Dobbs: And they were very impressed with what I was doing.

[1:04:50] Bob Dobbs: But nobody asked who I was or anything.

[1:04:53] Bob Dobbs: They just applauded and appreciated the performance.

[1:04:56] Bob Dobbs: But then when there was nobody on the walkway and there was just people who were living here,

[1:05:02] Bob Dobbs: no more tourists,

[1:05:05] Bob Dobbs: those people would end up at the end of the walkway and see me swimming,

[1:05:09] Bob Dobbs: and then I'd bump into them.

[1:05:11] Bob Dobbs: in a coming back or something and they would note me they'd say you're the guy who's doing that swimming and they compliment me so i got to know them and uh because they'd be the only ones i'd bump into and i wasn't uh a nobody in a huge crowd of walkers Wright was visible which

[1:05:32] Bob Dobbs: i didn't want to have i hate having to say hello to somebody every fucking day you know what i mean

[1:05:40] Bob Dobbs: Because I feel obliged to say something witty or interesting,

[1:05:46] Bob Dobbs: but I can't be bothered to think up something.

[1:05:48] Bob Dobbs: Anyways,

[1:05:50] Bob Dobbs: after a while,

[1:05:50] Bob Dobbs: people were very,

[1:05:52] Bob Dobbs: there's about four couples that I would meet in the late afternoon.

[1:05:58] Bob Dobbs: And they started to say,

[1:05:59] Bob Dobbs: how come you're so healthy?

[1:06:00] Bob Dobbs: So I told them about our products,

[1:06:01] Bob Dobbs: and they got on our products,

[1:06:03] Bob Dobbs: and they were incredible.

[1:06:04] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[1:06:04] Bob Dobbs: they got incredible effects.

[1:06:06] Bob Dobbs: So now,

[1:06:08] Bob Dobbs: I'm a hero.

[1:06:09] Bob Dobbs: And when I walk home from the beach,

[1:06:11] Bob Dobbs: I bump into three or four of the couples.

[1:06:14] Bob Dobbs: It's a,

[1:06:14] Bob Dobbs: what do you call it,

[1:06:15] Bob Dobbs: a,

[1:06:15] Bob Dobbs: I use the term,

[1:06:18] Bob Dobbs: a waiting line,

[1:06:21] Bob Dobbs: a waiting line?

[1:06:22] Bob Dobbs: I think that's what it is.

[1:06:24] Bob Dobbs: I use the phrase all the time,

[1:06:25] Bob Dobbs: a greeting line.

[1:06:28] Bob Dobbs: I have to stop and talk.

[1:06:29] Bob Dobbs: It's the worst.

[1:06:30] Bob Dobbs: I never was this at all.

[1:06:33] Bob Dobbs: It makes me get home too late.

[1:06:35] Bob Dobbs: But I have a greeting line.

[1:06:37] Bob Dobbs: And I got to talk to them and they tell me about what's going on with the effects of the products.

[1:06:42] Cameron McEwen: You didn't realize that there were strings attached to the products.

[1:06:49] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:06:49] Bob Dobbs: what do you mean by strings?

[1:06:50] Bob Dobbs: How are strings?

[1:06:53] Cameron McEwen: You've been captured.

[1:06:54] Cameron McEwen: You've been tied by the...

[1:06:57] Bob Dobbs: I got trapped by my anti-environment.

[1:07:01] Bob Dobbs: I was making anti-environment and it circled back and trapped me.

[1:07:06] Bob Dobbs: I'm being genuine here how I don't want to talk to people.

[1:07:11] Bob Dobbs: But it is interesting to talk to them because it's about my products or Carolyn's products.

[1:07:18] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:07:20] Bob Dobbs: I now have people.

[1:07:24] Bob Dobbs: There was the four couples.

[1:07:25] Bob Dobbs: They're the anchor.

[1:07:26] Bob Dobbs: But now they have friends come and visit them.

[1:07:30] Bob Dobbs: So they'll introduce me to their friend.

[1:07:33] Bob Dobbs: And then the friend.

[1:07:34] Bob Dobbs: will want to walk and talk with me.

[1:07:36] Bob Dobbs: So I've become a guru on the way home.

[1:07:44] Bob Dobbs: Really,

[1:07:44] Bob Dobbs: it is so ridiculous.

[1:07:47] Cameron McEwen: This is like Larry David's critique of meet and greet.

[1:07:51] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:07:52] Bob Dobbs: meet and greet.

[1:07:52] Cameron McEwen: The worst thing that can happen to you is meet and greet.

[1:07:55] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:07:56] Bob Dobbs: So it's funny that you picked up that I had a story there you wanted to hear about this phenomenon.

[1:08:02] Bob Dobbs: it was become

[1:08:04] Bob Dobbs: Pretty funny.

[1:08:05] Bob Dobbs: And,

[1:08:05] Bob Dobbs: of course,

[1:08:06] Bob Dobbs: they all want to meet Carolyn,

[1:08:08] Bob Dobbs: but she walks in the morning.

[1:08:10] Bob Dobbs: So they started walking in the morning to bump into Carolyn.

[1:08:15] Bob Dobbs: So it's hilarious.

[1:08:18] Bob Dobbs: So I have this whole social life based on walking home from the beach.

[1:08:22] Bob Dobbs: And there's a lot more to say about it,

[1:08:26] Bob Dobbs: I guess.

[1:08:26] Bob Dobbs: But now the tourists are back.

[1:08:30] Bob Dobbs: So...

[1:08:35] Bob Dobbs: That doesn't help anymore.

[1:08:37] Bob Dobbs: Everybody knows me now of the core greeting line.

[1:08:40] Bob Dobbs: So they look for me in the crowd of tourists.

[1:08:43] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:08:44] Bob Dobbs: I can't hide anymore.

[1:08:48] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:08:51] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[1:08:51] Bob Dobbs: that's a digression,

[1:08:52] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:08:54] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:08:54] Cameron McEwen: well,

[1:08:55] Cameron McEwen: yeah,

[1:08:55] Cameron McEwen: good one.

[1:08:56] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:08:56] Bob Dobbs: but it'd be a digression.

[1:08:59] Bob Dobbs: So let's see.

[1:09:01] Bob Dobbs: So I end up...

[1:09:02] Bob Dobbs: saying as a result,

[1:09:04] Bob Dobbs: and it's my note of 2017,

[1:09:09] Bob Dobbs: as a result of what you are hearing described here first,

[1:09:13] Bob Dobbs: I regard President Trump the greatest artist slash scientist paramedicologist alive today.

[1:09:19] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:09:21] Bob Dobbs: is that manipulative?

[1:09:22] Bob Dobbs: Am I exaggerating?

[1:09:24] Bob Dobbs: Not really.

[1:09:25] Bob Dobbs: But,

[1:09:25] Bob Dobbs: of course,

[1:09:26] Bob Dobbs: most people see it as ridiculous exaggeration.

[1:09:29] Bob Dobbs: And

[1:09:30] Bob Dobbs: I put that out.

[1:09:31] Bob Dobbs: That's on the internet.

[1:09:33] Bob Dobbs: For the last four years,

[1:09:34] Bob Dobbs: nobody ever commented on it.

[1:09:36] Bob Dobbs: Nobody.

[1:09:37] Bob Dobbs: None of the McLuhan.

[1:09:40] Bob Dobbs: Nobody even read it,

[1:09:41] Bob Dobbs: maybe.

[1:09:42] Bob Dobbs: But now,

[1:09:44] Bob Dobbs: if they're interested Innis new book,

[1:09:46] Bob Dobbs: they might read it.

[1:09:49] Bob Dobbs: So that's phase one,

[1:09:51] Bob Dobbs: okay?

[1:09:53] Bob Dobbs: And you've done a good job of translating what I'm trying to say about Trump,

[1:09:58] Bob Dobbs: what an interesting phenomenon he was.

[1:10:00] Bob Dobbs: And probably he'll come back in some form.

[1:10:08] Bob Dobbs: What we have now is the most incredible nihilism ever,

[1:10:13] Bob Dobbs: where a guy didn't even run,

[1:10:16] Bob Dobbs: and he can't talk,

[1:10:18] Bob Dobbs: and he doesn't exist.

[1:10:19] Bob Dobbs: And what other crazy things about him?

[1:10:23] Bob Dobbs: In an election that maybe was rigged,

[1:10:26] Bob Dobbs: a total nihilistic act is Mr.

[1:10:28] Bob Dobbs: Biden.

[1:10:29] Bob Dobbs: So if people become their names,

[1:10:32] Bob Dobbs: are we waiting on waiting?

[1:10:33] Bob Dobbs: Are we biding our time with Biden?

[1:10:36] Bob Dobbs: What does his name mean?

[1:10:39] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:10:40] Cameron McEwen: I don't know,

[1:10:40] Cameron McEwen: but what you just said is interesting in terms of what we were saying before,

[1:10:47] Cameron McEwen: Trump exposed the nothingness of the presidency.

[1:10:57] Cameron McEwen: If Biden is a nothing,

[1:11:00] Cameron McEwen: then he's living what

[1:11:03] Cameron McEwen: Trump exposed.

[1:11:04] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:11:06] Bob Dobbs: you had to,

[1:11:07] Bob Dobbs: every president's always an evolution.

[1:11:10] Bob Dobbs: progression or a change or new wrinkles added,

[1:11:13] Bob Dobbs: every one of them.

[1:11:14] Bob Dobbs: And so you had to out nothing the nothing that Trump us all.

[1:11:22] Bob Dobbs: We were all Trump Trump.

[1:11:25] Bob Dobbs: He was a Trump.

[1:11:27] Bob Dobbs: So you have a blatant,

[1:11:29] Bob Dobbs: ridiculous nothing.

[1:11:30] Bob Dobbs: And who would have believed that a guy could become president by not campaigning?

[1:11:39] Bob Dobbs: When he has a press conference,

[1:11:40] Bob Dobbs: everybody just hopes that he can say a sentence or two.

[1:11:43] Bob Dobbs: This is pretty extreme nothingness going on here.

[1:11:49] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:11:50] Cameron McEwen: So,

[1:11:50] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:11:52] Cameron McEwen: you were just saying that he became president by not campaigning,

[1:11:56] Cameron McEwen: and that's right.

[1:11:59] Cameron McEwen: But that turning campaigning on its ass.

[1:12:09] Cameron McEwen: has meaning,

[1:12:10] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:12:11] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:12:14] Cameron McEwen: I can't think of a way of expressing it.

[1:12:18] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:12:18] Bob Dobbs: it's the new version of the dark horse.

[1:12:21] Bob Dobbs: Remember,

[1:12:21] Bob Dobbs: Tudor got in.

[1:12:22] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan said in the late 60s,

[1:12:23] Bob Dobbs: you've got to be a dark horse to even be a potential candidate.

[1:12:27] Bob Dobbs: You can't want the job.

[1:12:29] Bob Dobbs: You actually run from it.

[1:12:31] Bob Dobbs: And so he,

[1:12:32] Bob Dobbs: Biden,

[1:12:33] Bob Dobbs: is extremely not wanting the job.

[1:12:36] Bob Dobbs: He refused to campaign for it.

[1:12:40] Bob Dobbs: Talked with a dark horse.

[1:12:45] Cameron McEwen: I guess,

[1:12:45] Cameron McEwen: but what

[1:12:46] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan meant by a dark horse was the personality has to kind of recede into the distance.

[1:12:56] Cameron McEwen: Can't be something that is too upfront.

[1:13:01] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:13:01] Bob Dobbs: not hot.

[1:13:02] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[1:13:03] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:13:03] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.

[1:13:04] Bob Dobbs: Can't be hot in it.

[1:13:06] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:13:07] Cameron McEwen: but in a certain way,

[1:13:08] Cameron McEwen: Biden is hot,

[1:13:11] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:13:13] Cameron McEwen: Biden is caught up Innis moral ascendancy.

[1:13:19] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:13:19] Bob Dobbs: he's trying to be something after Trump nothingness.

[1:13:24] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[1:13:25] Bob Dobbs: And you can't do it.

[1:13:28] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[1:13:28] Cameron McEwen: You can't do it.

[1:13:29] Cameron McEwen: He exposes,

[1:13:30] Cameron McEwen: by attempting to be,

[1:13:33] Cameron McEwen: he exposes the not to be.

[1:13:35] Cameron McEwen: In a way,

[1:13:36] Cameron McEwen: even better Trump.

[1:13:38] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[1:13:39] Bob Dobbs: And everybody says he's brought,

[1:13:41] Bob Dobbs: he's trying to bring unity.

[1:13:42] Bob Dobbs: He's brought peace from his nothingness.

[1:13:45] Bob Dobbs: He's brought a calmness to public life.

[1:13:48] Bob Dobbs: And now news is fainting and disappearing because they got nothing to write about.

[1:13:53] Bob Dobbs: No nothing to be nothing about.

[1:13:56] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[1:13:57] Cameron McEwen: Although occasionally,

[1:13:59] Cameron McEwen: like a million times a day,

[1:14:01] Cameron McEwen: they still find something to say about Trump.

[1:14:04] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:14:04] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[1:14:05] Cameron McEwen: because

[1:14:05] Cameron McEwen: Trump their oxygen.

[1:14:08] Cameron McEwen: But what you were saying earlier about,

[1:14:11] Cameron McEwen: just a second ago about Biden is interesting.

[1:14:14] Cameron McEwen: You were saying that in a certain way,

[1:14:17] Cameron McEwen: Biden is Trump Trump.

[1:14:19] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:14:20] Cameron McEwen: by trying to be something.

[1:14:27] Bob Dobbs: Every new president had to in a sequence of times now had Trump the previous guys.

[1:14:34] Bob Dobbs: But I'm not going to go back into it.

[1:14:35] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[1:14:35] Bob Dobbs: so he's trying Trump Trump,

[1:14:38] Bob Dobbs: and he does it by out-nothingness,

[1:14:40] Bob Dobbs: by claiming he's doing something.

[1:14:44] Bob Dobbs: Finally,

[1:14:44] Bob Dobbs: we've restored peace in our society,

[1:14:48] Bob Dobbs: and we can come together.

[1:14:49] Bob Dobbs: But,

[1:14:49] Bob Dobbs: of course,

[1:14:50] Bob Dobbs: he can't see anything coming together,

[1:14:52] Bob Dobbs: so he hides.

[1:14:54] Bob Dobbs: And people wait for the lady to become president.

[1:15:00] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[1:15:01] Bob Dobbs: how crazy can you get?

[1:15:03] Bob Dobbs: for a political process.

[1:15:04] Bob Dobbs: Talk about being involved in the image.

[1:15:07] Bob Dobbs: Everybody's trying to arrive at a Trump something,

[1:15:11] Bob Dobbs: and it's pretty hard to do.

[1:15:13] Bob Dobbs: And if this guy can't meet the challenge,

[1:15:15] Bob Dobbs: they'll put in the vice president,

[1:15:18] Bob Dobbs: who's got a manic laugh that people find disturbing.

[1:15:23] Cameron McEwen: The fact that she's a woman,

[1:15:27] Cameron McEwen: the fact that she's a woman of color,

[1:15:30] Cameron McEwen: the fact that she's got a vague

[1:15:35] Cameron McEwen: Caribbean roots,

[1:15:37] Cameron McEwen: Canadian roots even.

[1:15:40] Cameron McEwen: All of these things.

[1:15:42] Cameron McEwen: She needs that.

[1:15:45] Bob Dobbs: All those things she needs to be viable.

[1:15:51] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[1:15:52] Cameron McEwen: A minute ago you said,

[1:15:53] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[1:15:55] Cameron McEwen: what an end to the political process.

[1:15:57] Cameron McEwen: But it's not just an end to the political process.

[1:16:01] Cameron McEwen: West...

[1:16:01] Cameron McEwen: Western civilization has come to this.

[1:16:03] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:16:03] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[1:16:03] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:16:03] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:16:08] Cameron McEwen: for us to sit here and laugh about this sort of stuff is a little bit like what McLuhan was saying we had to do.

[1:16:18] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[1:16:20] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan said,

[1:16:21] Cameron McEwen: unless you're able to step back and laugh at this sort of stuff,

[1:16:26] Cameron McEwen: you cannot realize what it is.

[1:16:29] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:16:30] Bob Dobbs: He said somewhere in the end,

[1:16:32] Bob Dobbs: shall we laugh or cry was the name of an article,

[1:16:35] Bob Dobbs: I think,

[1:16:35] Bob Dobbs: in the TV Guide.

[1:16:38] Bob Dobbs: Shall we laugh or cry?

[1:16:39] Bob Dobbs: That was our dilemma.

[1:16:42] Bob Dobbs: And

[1:16:43] Bob Dobbs: I guess we go for the laughing.

[1:16:46] Cameron McEwen: The laugh side,

[1:16:47] Cameron McEwen: that's right.

[1:16:48] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:16:49] Bob Dobbs: And the Biden team is crying.

[1:16:54] Bob Dobbs: The Trump,

[1:16:56] Bob Dobbs: they had,

[1:16:56] Bob Dobbs: well,

[1:16:57] Bob Dobbs: Trump laughing.

[1:16:59] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:17:00] Bob Dobbs: he continues,

[1:17:01] Bob Dobbs: he got interviewed the other day,

[1:17:02] Bob Dobbs: I didn't watch it,

[1:17:03] Bob Dobbs: but he got interviewed by his Dawkins.

[1:17:07] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:17:08] Bob Dobbs: talk about,

[1:17:09] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:17:09] Bob Dobbs: keeping it within the cabal or keeping it within the family,

[1:17:13] Bob Dobbs: all in the family.

[1:17:16] Bob Dobbs: For his big interview,

[1:17:17] Bob Dobbs: he hasn't had one in a while,

[1:17:19] Bob Dobbs: it's an inside job,

[1:17:20] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:17:21] Bob Dobbs: He gets his Dawkins to interview him.

[1:17:24] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:17:26] Bob Dobbs: at the end of War and Peace of Global Village,

[1:17:28] Bob Dobbs: page 190,

[1:17:29] Bob Dobbs: about the outbreeding and the inbreeding.

[1:17:32] Bob Dobbs: Do you remember that thing?

[1:17:34] Bob Dobbs: That the,

[1:17:36] Bob Dobbs: what was it,

[1:17:37] Bob Dobbs: mammals,

[1:17:38] Bob Dobbs: microorganisms inbreed,

[1:17:41] Bob Dobbs: mammals outbreed.

[1:17:42] Bob Dobbs: But then media took over the mammalian role,

[1:17:45] Bob Dobbs: so media outbreeds,

[1:17:48] Bob Dobbs: and humans and nature together,

[1:17:54] Bob Dobbs: or animals,

[1:17:55] Bob Dobbs: they became inbreeders.

[1:17:59] Bob Dobbs: Because the media became the new animals,

[1:18:03] Bob Dobbs: the new oak breeders.

[1:18:04] Bob Dobbs: Okay?

[1:18:05] Bob Dobbs: That's what he says at the end.

[1:18:07] Bob Dobbs: So as part of this inbreeding incestuous situation,

[1:18:11] Bob Dobbs: you have the guy interviewed by his daughter.

[1:18:13] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[1:18:14] Bob Dobbs: nobody would have thought,

[1:18:15] Bob Dobbs: no way would Eisenhower be interviewed by his daughter,

[1:18:19] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:18:20] Bob Dobbs: But the inbreeding factor of media,

[1:18:23] Bob Dobbs: animals,

[1:18:23] Bob Dobbs: and nature and humans has become...

[1:18:27] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:18:28] Bob Dobbs: we're witnessing Trump.

[1:18:31] Bob Dobbs: And he continues to say that the election was nothing.

[1:18:34] Bob Dobbs: It was rigged.

[1:18:36] Bob Dobbs: He won.

[1:18:37] Bob Dobbs: That's that.

[1:18:39] Bob Dobbs: Of course,

[1:18:39] Bob Dobbs: the regular media will say,

[1:18:41] Bob Dobbs: what an idiot.

[1:18:42] Bob Dobbs: He's gone nuts.

[1:18:43] Bob Dobbs: But he sticks to it.

[1:18:45] Bob Dobbs: What an impasse on so many levels of communication.

[1:18:48] Bob Dobbs: Nobody can connect.

[1:18:51] Cameron McEwen: So

[1:18:52] Cameron McEwen: I didn't read or I didn't listen to the interview either.

[1:18:57] Cameron McEwen: But

[1:18:59] Cameron McEwen: I pulled it up on your website here.

[1:19:02] Cameron McEwen: And one of the interesting things to me is that...

[1:19:07] Cameron McEwen: He's in a room that looks like sort of the Tsar's palace or something.

[1:19:15] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[1:19:15] Cameron McEwen: yeah?

[1:19:16] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:19:17] Cameron McEwen: it's all got gold leaves.

[1:19:19] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:19:19] Cameron McEwen: that would be his office.

[1:19:22] Cameron McEwen: Probably,

[1:19:23] Cameron McEwen: probably.

[1:19:24] Cameron McEwen: But it's like saying,

[1:19:27] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[1:19:27] Cameron McEwen: an interview with the pharaoh or an interview with the last Tsar or something.

[1:19:35] Bob Dobbs: Does it say something you're saying?

[1:19:37] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:19:37] Cameron McEwen: no,

[1:19:39] Cameron McEwen: the background certainly says something.

[1:19:41] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[1:19:41] Bob Dobbs: I see.

[1:19:42] Bob Dobbs: In the interview with the last,

[1:19:43] Bob Dobbs: did you say czar?

[1:19:46] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:19:46] Cameron McEwen: or pharaoh or caesar.

[1:19:47] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:19:51] Bob Dobbs: there was a book in the 90s,

[1:19:56] Bob Dobbs: a postmodern book about every president since Reagan was a Chinese emperor.

[1:20:04] Bob Dobbs: And it was talking about the last Chinese emperor.

[1:20:07] Bob Dobbs: That's McLuhan.

[1:20:08] Bob Dobbs: The West goes completely east,

[1:20:11] Bob Dobbs: and every president is a Chinese emperor,

[1:20:14] Bob Dobbs: whatever that means to people.

[1:20:16] Bob Dobbs: Not American.

[1:20:18] Bob Dobbs: So yeah,

[1:20:19] Bob Dobbs: your point about a pharaoh and that is what Trump.

[1:20:23] Bob Dobbs: He's a president,

[1:20:24] Bob Dobbs: he's an emperor,

[1:20:26] Bob Dobbs: and he's not an American emperor.

[1:20:30] Bob Dobbs: He's something else.

[1:20:33] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:20:35] Cameron McEwen: poses the question.

[1:20:37] Cameron McEwen: of not only what he is,

[1:20:40] Cameron McEwen: but what we are.

[1:20:41] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:20:42] Bob Dobbs: And in the Burroughs article,

[1:20:44] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan reviews Burroughs in 64,

[1:20:46] Bob Dobbs: he says we're all becoming Egyptian or pharaonic,

[1:20:51] Bob Dobbs: and we're doing that with Web 2.0.

[1:20:53] Bob Dobbs: Everybody has their own empire,

[1:20:54] Bob Dobbs: their media empire.

[1:20:56] Bob Dobbs: And so they're pharaonic,

[1:20:58] Bob Dobbs: and they tune the whole world.

[1:21:01] Bob Dobbs: That's what he says Joyce did with Finnegans Wake,

[1:21:03] Bob Dobbs: and McLuhan did it with...

[1:21:04] Bob Dobbs: the title Center for Culture and Technology.

[1:21:06] Bob Dobbs: He was tuning the whole world.

[1:21:10] Cameron McEwen: And so then,

[1:21:12] Cameron McEwen: what that means is that it was a do-it-yourself phenomenon.

[1:21:18] Cameron McEwen: And so then the question arises,

[1:21:21] Cameron McEwen: what's the difference between a do-it-yourself phenomenon like

[1:21:27] Cameron McEwen: Joyce or McLuhan and the do-it-yourself

[1:21:32] Cameron McEwen: Web 2.0 that you were just talking about?

[1:21:35] Cameron McEwen: The

[1:21:38] Cameron McEwen: Western civilization more or less comes down to that question.

[1:21:42] Bob Dobbs: Yep.

[1:21:43] Bob Dobbs: Who would have believed that the Cayce of Finnegans Wake would become people's communicating lives?

[1:21:52] Bob Dobbs: We live Finnegans Wake now,

[1:21:54] Bob Dobbs: literally.

[1:21:55] Bob Dobbs: A page of Finnegans Wake.

[1:21:57] Bob Dobbs: And that wasn't obvious to people or even Jewish scholars.

[1:22:05] Bob Dobbs: You couldn't probably really begin to see that until the

[1:22:09] Bob Dobbs: 90s with email.

[1:22:11] Bob Dobbs: Because there's so much,

[1:22:13] Bob Dobbs: all through 50s Wait,

[1:22:14] Bob Dobbs: there's endless something said,

[1:22:17] Bob Dobbs: something responds.

[1:22:18] Bob Dobbs: Said,

[1:22:18] Bob Dobbs: respond.

[1:22:19] Bob Dobbs: Said,

[1:22:19] Bob Dobbs: respond.

[1:22:19] Bob Dobbs: It goes on for pages.

[1:22:20] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?

[1:22:21] Bob Dobbs: And he even has the word emailia in there.

[1:22:25] Bob Dobbs: E-M-A-I-L-I-A.

[1:22:27] Bob Dobbs: Emailia.

[1:22:29] Bob Dobbs: He named what we became.

[1:22:32] Bob Dobbs: And then the Web 2.0 is even more...

[1:22:35] Bob Dobbs: chaotic or pharaonic or incredible.

[1:22:39] Bob Dobbs: So only the last,

[1:22:41] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:22:41] Bob Dobbs: 10 years can we really see how Finnegans Wake was a report on the present that McLuhan said great art always did.

[1:22:51] Bob Dobbs: He couldn't have said that 40 years ago.

[1:22:54] Bob Dobbs: You see that?

[1:22:55] Bob Dobbs: See,

[1:22:55] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan only brings it up to TV,

[1:22:57] Bob Dobbs: but the whole internet is in Finnegans Wake.

[1:23:06] Cameron McEwen: As I've said before,

[1:23:07] Cameron McEwen: I don't know

[1:23:08] Cameron McEwen: Finnegans Wake Twig well enough to talk about it.

[1:23:11] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:23:12] Cameron McEwen: But I do agree that in the present circumstance,

[1:23:17] Cameron McEwen: both McLuhan and Joyce are becoming clear in a way they did not and perhaps could not before.

[1:23:26] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:23:27] Bob Dobbs: And that's what

[1:23:28] Bob Dobbs: I'm trying to do is to update

[1:23:32] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan to show that.

[1:23:34] Bob Dobbs: the McLuhan industry has got no clue about what McLuhan did or accomplished.

[1:23:41] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:23:45] Bob Dobbs: I don't know what to say.

[1:23:47] Bob Dobbs: You should scan a bit ahead and just see what you see and ask me.

[1:23:51] Bob Dobbs: We get to this point where I go,

[1:23:54] Bob Dobbs: my goal is to show the phases,

[1:23:57] Bob Dobbs: the global village McLuhan,

[1:23:58] Bob Dobbs: the global theater,

[1:23:59] Bob Dobbs: and then the global membrane or Android Meme Phase 1.

[1:24:03] Bob Dobbs: Android Meme Phase 2,

[1:24:04] Bob Dobbs: then the Anthropomorphic Physical,

[1:24:05] Bob Dobbs: then the Tech Body.

[1:24:07] Bob Dobbs: That's what I'm now going to do after I did the 2017 background.

[1:24:14] Bob Dobbs: Now I'm going to go back to events in the

[1:24:17] Bob Dobbs: 50s, 60s,

[1:24:18] Bob Dobbs: 70s and work my way back up Trump.

[1:24:21] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[1:24:24] Cameron McEwen: Maybe what I could do is point out how,

[1:24:31] Cameron McEwen: I think it was in 1949,

[1:24:34] Cameron McEwen: but it was around 1950 at any rate,

[1:24:37] Cameron McEwen: And Levi Strauss wrote an essay on what...

[1:24:43] Cameron McEwen: anthropology is.

[1:24:45] Cameron McEwen: It's in the book Structural Anthropology and McLuhan was certainly familiar with it.

[1:24:52] Cameron McEwen: When he became familiar with it,

[1:24:54] Cameron McEwen: I'm not sure.

[1:24:55] Cameron McEwen: But what Lévi-Strauss does is he differentiates between the task of the historian and the task of the anthropologist.

[1:25:05] Cameron McEwen: And he says that both of them are going along the same road and um,

[1:25:12] Cameron McEwen: they work together.

[1:25:14] Cameron McEwen: And the historian takes the facts that everybody can see and gives their intrinsic meaning.

[1:25:28] Cameron McEwen: So you have the extra,

[1:25:29] Cameron McEwen: you have for the historian,

[1:25:31] Cameron McEwen: you have the extrinsic facts,

[1:25:34] Cameron McEwen: and then you have the intrinsic meaning.

[1:25:38] Cameron McEwen: And I take it that that's what you do in your book.

[1:25:43] Cameron McEwen: What I do,

[1:25:43] Cameron McEwen: in contrast,

[1:25:45] Cameron McEwen: I take what

[1:25:46] Cameron McEwen: Lévi-Strauss calls the anthropological view,

[1:25:50] Cameron McEwen: and that is to take the particular,

[1:25:53] Cameron McEwen: that is to say the extrinsic thing,

[1:25:56] Cameron McEwen: and to give it its universal meaning.

[1:25:59] Cameron McEwen: And its universal meaning isn't some sort of,

[1:26:04] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[1:26:05] Cameron McEwen: the final meaning of the universe or something.

[1:26:08] Cameron McEwen: It's the

[1:26:09] Cameron McEwen: H-C-E meaning.

[1:26:12] Cameron McEwen: All things are the realization of some potential,

[1:26:17] Cameron McEwen: and the potential lies along a spectrum of potentialities.

[1:26:23] Cameron McEwen: So the Anthropomorphic Physical view is to take the particular and locate it as a realization along the spectrum of possibilities.

[1:26:36] Cameron McEwen: So what I see us doing is dialoguing between these two tasks.

[1:26:42] Cameron McEwen: of the historian and the anthropologist.

[1:26:47] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:26:48] Cameron McEwen: So what we will do is we will continue,

[1:26:53] Cameron McEwen: in continuing with the book,

[1:26:55] Cameron McEwen: is that you will be exposing what you take to be the intrinsic message Trump,

[1:27:05] Cameron McEwen: and I will be trying to take the particulars of Trump story

[1:27:10] Cameron McEwen: but also the particulars of your narrative and try to show where they're located on the spectrum of possibilities.

[1:27:20] Bob Dobbs: Great.

[1:27:21] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:27:21] Bob Dobbs: that sounds commendable.

[1:27:25] Bob Dobbs: How would you begin?

[1:27:27] Bob Dobbs: As you look through the quotes in that that I first start with,

[1:27:40] Bob Dobbs: I get into the Orwellian and the obsolescence of Orwell in 1984.

[1:27:50] Bob Dobbs: And that's maybe some people have noticed that now,

[1:27:54] Bob Dobbs: but nobody knew about it

[1:27:56] Bob Dobbs: 30, 40 years ago.

[1:27:59] Bob Dobbs: So that's like the global village era,

[1:28:04] Bob Dobbs: the global village of the 40s and

[1:28:06] Bob Dobbs: 30s. Well,

[1:28:06] Bob Dobbs: he even said.

[1:28:08] Bob Dobbs: 1984,

[1:28:08] Bob Dobbs: the book was about 1934.

[1:28:11] Bob Dobbs: So the Global Village brings in the Orwellian aspects of what had already been going on back then,

[1:28:18] Bob Dobbs: rather than us waiting for an amazing

[1:28:21] Bob Dobbs: Orwellian scene coming around the corner under Biden Trump or Bush or

[1:28:27] Bob Dobbs: Reagan, just going back,

[1:28:29] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:28:30] Bob Dobbs: all the horrible presidents everybody got worried about.

[1:28:34] Bob Dobbs: But no,

[1:28:35] Bob Dobbs: that was...

[1:28:36] Bob Dobbs: way back in the

[1:28:37] Bob Dobbs: 30s, the global village.

[1:28:41] Bob Dobbs: So that's where I begin.

[1:28:45] Cameron McEwen: So this is,

[1:28:47] Cameron McEwen: you could say that the global village is not something that develops in time.

[1:28:57] Cameron McEwen: It's what's already there.

[1:28:59] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:29:00] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[1:29:00] Cameron McEwen: And so what the moral...

[1:29:06] Cameron McEwen: interpretation of events tries to do is constantly try to catch up with what's happening.

[1:29:16] Cameron McEwen: But you can't catch up with what's happening if what's happening is already there.

[1:29:21] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:29:22] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[1:29:22] Cameron McEwen: Because you're trying to leap ahead where there is no leaping ahead.

[1:29:28] Cameron McEwen: So with the Orwellian aspects,

[1:29:31] Cameron McEwen: what

[1:29:33] Cameron McEwen: Nietzsche could already see in the

[1:29:35] Cameron McEwen: 19th century and what McLuhan could see starting in the

[1:29:41] Cameron McEwen: 1940s until he died in 1980 is

[1:29:45] Cameron McEwen: the authoritarian aspects of human ingenuity.

[1:29:54] Cameron McEwen: But we think we're on a path to freedom.

[1:29:58] Cameron McEwen: And in fact,

[1:29:59] Cameron McEwen: people wrote endless articles about the human path to freedom.

[1:30:06] Cameron McEwen: I would say that was between 1945 and 1985.

[1:30:11] Cameron McEwen: That was the great way to make a Bucke.

[1:30:16] Cameron McEwen: to Wright book or article about advancing human freedom or some stupid thing like that.

[1:30:22] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:30:22] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:30:24] Bob Dobbs: so for younger people who might have heard of 1984,

[1:30:30] Bob Dobbs: we don't know what they are taught,

[1:30:32] Bob Dobbs: what they're told in school anymore.

[1:30:35] Cameron McEwen: They certainly haven't read it.

[1:30:37] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:30:38] Bob Dobbs: they wouldn't have read it,

[1:30:39] Bob Dobbs: might have saw the movie.

[1:30:40] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:30:42] Bob Dobbs: But the thing is,

[1:30:43] Bob Dobbs: I'm saying,

[1:30:44] Bob Dobbs: look.

[1:30:45] Bob Dobbs: What you think is coming or happening now happened a long time ago and this guy noticed that more than anybody else.

[1:30:54] Bob Dobbs: So I'm trying to show,

[1:30:56] Bob Dobbs: begin with,

[1:30:57] Bob Dobbs: look at this significant percept that this thinker made that you don't even know about and probably don't believe.

[1:31:04] Bob Dobbs: And didn't know that it was that bad back then.

[1:31:08] Bob Dobbs: So that's,

[1:31:10] Bob Dobbs: as I look at the quotes I picked,

[1:31:12] Bob Dobbs: that was a theme I wanted to...

[1:31:14] Bob Dobbs: point out the obsolescence of the Orwellian.

[1:31:24] Cameron McEwen: Perceptions that emerge with Trump conscious to him or do you think that these

[1:31:35] Cameron McEwen: are perceptions that sort of come through

[1:31:38] Cameron McEwen: Trump almost like a stained glass window or something?

[1:31:42] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:31:42] Bob Dobbs: and that'll be more obvious when I get into the tech body.

[1:31:47] Cameron McEwen: Okay.

[1:31:47] Bob Dobbs: You see,

[1:31:48] Bob Dobbs: Trump the tech body or a big aspect of it,

[1:31:51] Bob Dobbs: or he can't bypass being the tech body.

[1:31:56] Bob Dobbs: It's got him.

[1:31:58] Bob Dobbs: It'll use him however way it wants.

[1:32:01] Cameron McEwen: So maybe one way to approach this would be to go Trump as the tech body.

[1:32:08] Cameron McEwen: That is to say,

[1:32:09] Cameron McEwen: go to the latter part of your book.

[1:32:11] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:32:11] Cameron McEwen: And then once that's clarified,

[1:32:15] Cameron McEwen: go back to the steps that you took to explain it through McLuhan career.

[1:32:25] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:32:25] Bob Dobbs: like the detective story.

[1:32:28] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:32:29] Bob Dobbs: We find out who did it and then explain how we got there,

[1:32:32] Bob Dobbs: how we found out who did it.

[1:32:35] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[1:32:36] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:32:36] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:32:37] Cameron McEwen: So I don't know if that appeals to you.

[1:32:39] Cameron McEwen: That's what we could start.

[1:32:41] Cameron McEwen: Next week,

[1:32:44] Cameron McEwen: whatever method you would be most comfortable with is fine with me.

[1:32:49] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:32:49] Bob Dobbs: I want you to ask me questions as much as possible.

[1:32:54] Bob Dobbs: I don't know what to select.

[1:32:56] Bob Dobbs: I've done pretty good just scanning and said,

[1:32:58] Bob Dobbs: well,

[1:32:58] Bob Dobbs: I could talk about that and this,

[1:33:00] Bob Dobbs: but

[1:33:02] Bob Dobbs: I want to see what you notice,

[1:33:04] Bob Dobbs: what you appreciate.

[1:33:05] Bob Dobbs: So you might actually have to prepare a bit for this more than me and read a little bit.

[1:33:11] Bob Dobbs: see what you notice.

[1:33:14] Cameron McEwen: Of course,

[1:33:15] Cameron McEwen: I've already read the book or the brochure several times and I've marked it up in various ways.

[1:33:24] Cameron McEwen: What I can certainly do starting next time is I can say,

[1:33:31] Cameron McEwen: well,

[1:33:31] Cameron McEwen: let's look at pages and look at what you marked up and you can start at the end.

[1:33:40] Cameron McEwen: The tech body?

[1:33:42] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:33:42] Cameron McEwen: start with the tech body.

[1:33:43] Cameron McEwen: Should we do that?

[1:33:44] Cameron McEwen: Okay.

[1:33:44] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:33:45] Cameron McEwen: That's fine.

[1:33:45] Bob Dobbs: As long as you ask me to lead,

[1:33:49] Bob Dobbs: I don't see how to lead this.

[1:33:52] Bob Dobbs: I'm interested in what the effects are on you.

[1:33:56] Cameron McEwen: Gotcha.

[1:33:57] Cameron McEwen: Gotcha.

[1:33:58] Cameron McEwen: Plus,

[1:33:59] Cameron McEwen: you're a very busy guy,

[1:34:00] Cameron McEwen: Bob.

[1:34:02] Cameron McEwen: This is a fairly minor aspect of...

[1:34:05] Cameron McEwen: your cosmic activity.

[1:34:07] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[1:34:08] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:34:08] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:34:09] Bob Dobbs: on every Wednesday I do a five-hour dialogue on the radio before I come to you.

[1:34:18] Bob Dobbs: Plus,

[1:34:18] Bob Dobbs: I have to answer all my fans down on the walkway in between.

[1:34:27] Bob Dobbs: So it's funny.

[1:34:28] Bob Dobbs: For me,

[1:34:28] Bob Dobbs: the COVID exposed me,

[1:34:31] Bob Dobbs: really did.

[1:34:34] Cameron McEwen: To your immediate neighbors.

[1:34:36] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:34:38] Cameron McEwen: And these people must be...

[1:34:41] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[1:34:42] Cameron McEwen: retired insurance executives and stuff like that,

[1:34:45] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:34:46] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:34:46] Bob Dobbs: some are younger.

[1:34:47] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:34:47] Bob Dobbs: there's a few younger people,

[1:34:49] Bob Dobbs: but

[1:34:50] Bob Dobbs: I'd say two couples are in their 70s and three couples are in their 40s.

[1:35:01] Cameron McEwen: And people in their

[1:35:03] Cameron McEwen: 40s must still be working at something,

[1:35:05] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:35:06] Bob Dobbs: As a matter of fact,

[1:35:09] Bob Dobbs: one of them lives in New York.

[1:35:11] Bob Dobbs: And came over here in March a year ago,

[1:35:13] Bob Dobbs: got stranded here.

[1:35:15] Bob Dobbs: And so then stopped worrying about their career because everything shut down and just relaxed.

[1:35:21] Bob Dobbs: But now,

[1:35:22] Bob Dobbs: a year later,

[1:35:22] Bob Dobbs: she's gone back to New York and may not see her for a couple of months.

[1:35:28] Bob Dobbs: But her whole career was interrupted.

[1:35:36] Bob Dobbs: And she was stranded here in paradise.

[1:35:41] Bob Dobbs: Now she's back to hell,

[1:35:42] Bob Dobbs: New York City.

[1:35:47] Bob Dobbs: So yeah,

[1:35:49] Bob Dobbs: the changes are,

[1:35:51] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:35:51] Bob Dobbs: I am seeing the effects on people because I don't have anybody to interact with,

[1:35:57] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:35:58] Bob Dobbs: I'm a self-employed,

[1:35:59] Bob Dobbs: self-involved situation here.

[1:36:01] Bob Dobbs: Very busy,

[1:36:02] Bob Dobbs: but it's all on the telephone and that.

[1:36:06] Bob Dobbs: No people,

[1:36:07] Bob Dobbs: I'm not Innis or anything.

[1:36:09] Bob Dobbs: And so my office now is out there,

[1:36:13] Bob Dobbs: and that's what

[1:36:16] Bob Dobbs: COVID brought me,

[1:36:17] Bob Dobbs: a kind of daily social life that I didn't have.

[1:36:21] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:36:22] Cameron McEwen: A neighborhood.

[1:36:24] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:36:25] Bob Dobbs: I'm a mystery man in a compound here.

[1:36:27] Bob Dobbs: I don't relate to anybody.

[1:36:29] Bob Dobbs: I don't talk to anybody.

[1:36:32] Bob Dobbs: I don't want them to find out what I'm doing.

[1:36:35] Bob Dobbs: If any of them heard me,

[1:36:36] Bob Dobbs: what I say on the radio,

[1:36:37] Bob Dobbs: there'd be trouble.

[1:36:42] Bob Dobbs: So many people don't believe Carolyn has a husband.

[1:36:48] Bob Dobbs: She claims she has a husband,

[1:36:49] Bob Dobbs: but they've never seen him.

[1:36:54] Bob Dobbs: So that's pretty neat.

[1:36:55] Bob Dobbs: Carolyn gave a talk in a person's house,

[1:36:58] Bob Dobbs: and a guy showed up,

[1:37:01] Bob Dobbs: a man,

[1:37:04] Bob Dobbs: who was there just to meet me.

[1:37:06] Bob Dobbs: He assumed I'd be there,

[1:37:07] Bob Dobbs: but I wasn't.

[1:37:08] Bob Dobbs: I knew that they'd be taking advantage of it,

[1:37:12] Bob Dobbs: but he failed to meet me.

[1:37:14] Bob Dobbs: And then shortly after he moved out,

[1:37:16] Bob Dobbs: he gave up and left.

[1:37:22] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:37:22] Cameron McEwen: to me,

[1:37:24] Cameron McEwen: the stories of the beach and the walkway and all this sort of stuff are interesting because it's the extreme opposite of your cosmic activities.

[1:37:35] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[1:37:36] Cameron McEwen: Your broad past.

[1:37:38] Bob Dobbs: I'm discarnate in touch with everyone,

[1:37:40] Bob Dobbs: with millions.

[1:37:42] Bob Dobbs: But physically,

[1:37:43] Bob Dobbs: chemical body is isolated.

[1:37:46] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:37:46] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[1:37:47] Bob Dobbs: I'm going to send you the link to my old website,

[1:37:50] Bob Dobbs: and you can look at the pictures of my walkway.

[1:37:54] Bob Dobbs: You can see my walk.

[1:37:56] Bob Dobbs: All right.

[1:37:57] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:37:58] Bob Dobbs: very nice pictures that we took,

[1:37:59] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:37:59] Bob Dobbs: back in 2009 or so.

[1:38:02] Bob Dobbs: The sequence,

[1:38:03] Bob Dobbs: you'll see what I walk along and what I experience.

[1:38:06] Bob Dobbs: Pretty nice.

[1:38:09] Cameron McEwen: Good,

[1:38:09] Cameron McEwen: good.

[1:38:10] Cameron McEwen: So let's just briefly discuss for next time.

[1:38:15] Cameron McEwen: If I understand you correctly,

[1:38:16] Cameron McEwen: we're going to go to the end.

[1:38:18] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:38:18] Cameron McEwen: And

[1:38:19] Cameron McEwen: I'm going to review.

[1:38:24] Cameron McEwen: Should we specify the chapters

[1:38:26] Cameron McEwen: I'm going to review so that we can both?

[1:38:29] Bob Dobbs: Because we're always going off anyways on other unforeseen parts.

[1:38:33] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:38:33] Bob Dobbs: you're just going to talk about what you noted.

[1:38:36] Bob Dobbs: You made notes.

[1:38:37] Cameron McEwen: Okay.

[1:38:38] Cameron McEwen: All right.

[1:38:38] Bob Dobbs: Use those as springboards.

[1:38:40] Cameron McEwen: Okay,

[1:38:41] Cameron McEwen: good.

[1:38:41] Cameron McEwen: And then you'll respond.

[1:38:43] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:38:44] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:38:45] Bob Dobbs: And then maybe then that might give me a focus,

[1:38:48] Bob Dobbs: and then maybe I could start looking at other quotes and finding stuff.

[1:38:52] Cameron McEwen: Good.

[1:38:53] Bob Dobbs: That I wouldn't find unless I was prompted.

[1:38:56] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:38:56] Bob Dobbs: so very good.

[1:38:59] Bob Dobbs: We arrive safely at the end,

[1:39:01] Bob Dobbs: and you can proceed with your day.

[1:39:04] Cameron McEwen: All right.

[1:39:05] Cameron McEwen: You too,

[1:39:06] Cameron McEwen: Bob.

[1:39:06] Cameron McEwen: Thank you very much.

[1:39:08] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:39:08] Bob Dobbs: Great talking to you,

[1:39:09] Bob Dobbs: Ewen Cameron.

[1:39:10] Cameron McEwen: Same here,

[1:39:10] Cameron McEwen: Bob.

[1:39:11] Cameron McEwen: All right.

[1:39:12] Bob Dobbs: Bye.