Dialogue 21 — Transcript

[00:02] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[00:02] Bob Dobbs: this is

[00:03] Bob Dobbs: Bob and Ewen Cameron meeting for the

[00:06] Bob Dobbs: 21st time on April 8th,

[00:09] Bob Dobbs: 2021.

[00:11] Bob Dobbs: And we're going into the content of my book,

[00:17] Bob Dobbs: book in quotes.

[00:18] Bob Dobbs: It was meant to be an article,

[00:20] Bob Dobbs: then it went on for quite a long stretch.

[00:23] Bob Dobbs: So jokingly,

[00:24] Bob Dobbs: I call it a pamphlet,

[00:26] Bob Dobbs: or as McLuhan would say,

[00:27] Bob Dobbs: a broadside.

[00:29] Bob Dobbs: But it's pretty long.

[00:30] Bob Dobbs: 190 pages or so.

[00:33] Bob Dobbs: Internet pages or what is this,

[00:35] Bob Dobbs: Word document pages?

[00:37] Bob Dobbs: What are these pages?

[00:39] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[00:40] Cameron McEwen: there would be print pages.

[00:42] Bob Dobbs: Would be print.

[00:44] Bob Dobbs: So 8 by 11?

[00:48] Cameron McEwen: It wouldn't necessarily be 8 by 11.

[00:50] Cameron McEwen: It would all depend on the paper size,

[00:52] Cameron McEwen: but it's set up to print in...

[01:00] Cameron McEwen: regulation size paper.

[01:03] Bob Dobbs: And that's 8 by 11,

[01:04] Bob Dobbs: right?

[01:06] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[01:06] Cameron McEwen: it is here,

[01:07] Cameron McEwen: but it's not in Europe,

[01:08] Cameron McEwen: so.

[01:08] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[01:08] Bob Dobbs: it's in Europe.

[01:11] Cameron McEwen: It's a little bit longer,

[01:13] Cameron McEwen: and it might be a tad less wide as well,

[01:16] Cameron McEwen: but I'm not exactly sure of the dimensions.

[01:19] Cameron McEwen: For one thing,

[01:20] Cameron McEwen: it's 8 and a half by 11 is inches,

[01:23] Cameron McEwen: and of course,

[01:23] Cameron McEwen: they don't have inches.

[01:24] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[01:24] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[01:26] Bob Dobbs: See,

[01:26] Bob Dobbs: you ask a silly simple question,

[01:28] Bob Dobbs: Not doesn't hurt.

[01:29] Bob Dobbs: learn something.

[01:31] Cameron McEwen: There you go.

[01:32] Cameron McEwen: Let me say something about pamphlet.

[01:36] Cameron McEwen: When people hear the word pamphlet in

[01:41] Cameron McEwen: North America,

[01:42] Cameron McEwen: they tend to think of something short,

[01:45] Cameron McEwen: something like a brochure or something and certainly not like a book.

[01:49] Cameron McEwen: But

[01:50] Cameron McEwen: Wyndham Lewis and McLuhan use pamphlet in the English sense.

[01:56] Cameron McEwen: And the English sense of pamphlet

[01:59] Cameron McEwen: There's something that pamphleteers,

[02:02] Cameron McEwen: something that takes up a position and is combative towards another position or other positions.

[02:13] Cameron McEwen: So a

[02:14] Cameron McEwen: 400-page book for Lewis and McLuhan can be a pamphlet.

[02:18] Cameron McEwen: It's just that they're speaking English-English,

[02:21] Cameron McEwen: not North American English.

[02:23] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[02:24] Bob Dobbs: and so there's a technical definition of pamphlet.

[02:28] Bob Dobbs: As a certain motive?

[02:32] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[02:33] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[02:33] Cameron McEwen: Bob,

[02:34] Cameron McEwen: you know from Finnegans Wake that there's no such thing as technical definition in language.

[02:41] Cameron McEwen: It all depends on where you are and who you are and who you're speaking to and who's listening and all that sort of stuff.

[02:49] Cameron McEwen: So it's just in England,

[02:52] Cameron McEwen: the English use pamphlet in regard to...

[02:57] Cameron McEwen: to a,

[03:01] Cameron McEwen: in regard to writing of any length,

[03:04] Cameron McEwen: and in North America,

[03:06] Cameron McEwen: we don't.

[03:08] Bob Dobbs: So any length,

[03:09] Bob Dobbs: but is it a,

[03:11] Bob Dobbs: it's not fiction?

[03:14] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[03:14] Cameron McEwen: I don't know.

[03:15] Cameron McEwen: I don't know.

[03:18] Cameron McEwen: I can imagine a fiction book being largely

[03:26] Cameron McEwen: pamphleteering.

[03:28] Cameron McEwen: But

[03:29] Cameron McEwen: I don't really know.

[03:29] Cameron McEwen: I don't speak

[03:31] Cameron McEwen: English English that well to know.

[03:33] Cameron McEwen: All I know is that in reading

[03:38] Cameron McEwen: Lewis and McLuhan it's fairly clear that they use pamphlet to refer to pamphleteering and not to the length of a book or a brochure.

[03:51] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[03:51] Bob Dobbs: What's the broadside?

[03:53] Bob Dobbs: Got anything to say about that?

[03:56] Cameron McEwen: A broadside was a newspaper,

[03:58] Cameron McEwen: right?

[03:59] Cameron McEwen: So a broadside,

[04:04] Cameron McEwen: I believe,

[04:05] Cameron McEwen: began as a newspaper with a decided point of view,

[04:12] Cameron McEwen: something that attempted to lodge the sort of broadside that an

[04:20] Cameron McEwen: English naval ship might lodge against a French ship.

[04:25] Cameron McEwen: Spanish ship.

[04:27] Bob Dobbs: Weaponized.

[04:29] Cameron McEwen: Pardon me?

[04:30] Bob Dobbs: It's weaponized writing.

[04:32] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[04:34] Cameron McEwen: So then it went from having a newspaper reference to really being a kind of verb.

[04:45] Cameron McEwen: A broadside begins as a type of action,

[04:50] Cameron McEwen: a naval action,

[04:51] Cameron McEwen: goes to being a type of newspaper.

[04:54] Cameron McEwen: And then with us,

[04:57] Cameron McEwen: if it's used at all.

[04:59] Cameron McEwen: nearly always used as a verb.

[05:02] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[05:02] Bob Dobbs: Do you remember about 1978,

[05:07] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan made that pamphlet,

[05:08] Bob Dobbs: the brochure,

[05:08] Bob Dobbs: he had it made up about the new nature and maybe it was called There's No Nature or something.

[05:17] Bob Dobbs: It was about the effect of Sputnik.

[05:20] Bob Dobbs: And at the bottom,

[05:20] Bob Dobbs: he called it a broadside.

[05:25] Cameron McEwen: That's sort of like a counterblast.

[05:27] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[05:28] Bob Dobbs: counterblast.

[05:30] Cameron McEwen: I've never seen it,

[05:31] Cameron McEwen: but I know that in 1974,

[05:37] Cameron McEwen: Lewis Forsdale said to McLuhan something like,

[05:43] Cameron McEwen: do I understand you correctly that

[05:47] Cameron McEwen: Mother Nature is dead?

[05:49] Cameron McEwen: And McLuhan answers,

[05:50] Cameron McEwen: yes,

[05:51] Cameron McEwen: the hand that rocked the cradle has kicked the bucket.

[05:55] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[05:56] Bob Dobbs: And he has that statement.

[05:59] Bob Dobbs: That aphorism in Counterblast 69,

[06:02] Bob Dobbs: talking about the Beatles music,

[06:05] Bob Dobbs: says that the Beatles music proves that the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world.

[06:09] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[06:10] Bob Dobbs: there you go.

[06:11] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[06:11] Bob Dobbs: and five years later,

[06:12] Bob Dobbs: kicked the bucket.

[06:14] Bob Dobbs: It's not there anymore.

[06:16] Bob Dobbs: The Beatles broke up.

[06:19] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[06:19] Bob Dobbs: so we're looking at Appendix 2,

[06:22] Bob Dobbs: which is an interview with the Tech Body.

[06:25] Bob Dobbs: Do you have a question,

[06:26] Bob Dobbs: or do you want me to say some things for a minute?

[06:28] Bob Dobbs: Up to you.

[06:29] Bob Dobbs: All right.

[06:31] Bob Dobbs: This pamphlet is to say,

[06:36] Bob Dobbs: answer the question,

[06:38] Bob Dobbs: what we,

[06:39] Bob Dobbs: you,

[06:40] Bob Dobbs: didn't know about Trump.

[06:42] Bob Dobbs: I knew about it,

[06:43] Bob Dobbs: but I didn't want to be arrogant.

[06:45] Bob Dobbs: So I put in the royal we,

[06:46] Bob Dobbs: right?

[06:47] Bob Dobbs: What we slash you didn't know about Trump.

[06:49] Bob Dobbs: So what did people not know about Trump,

[06:51] Bob Dobbs: the most discussed phenomenon in a long time?

[06:55] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[06:55] Bob Dobbs: what they didn't know is that.

[06:57] Bob Dobbs: Trump produced by the tech body.

[06:59] Bob Dobbs: What the heck is the tech body?

[07:02] Bob Dobbs: So,

[07:05] Bob Dobbs: I learned about the tech body from ION,

[07:07] Bob Dobbs: who's well-versed in McLuhan and Lewis and my charts and my stuff,

[07:15] Bob Dobbs: the five bodies.

[07:16] Bob Dobbs: They're very up on it.

[07:18] Bob Dobbs: I don't know when

[07:19] Bob Dobbs: ION became up on it.

[07:21] Bob Dobbs: When they first came through in March

[07:24] Bob Dobbs: 2009...

[07:26] Bob Dobbs: For the first six months,

[07:29] Bob Dobbs: I'd bring up McLuhan,

[07:30] Bob Dobbs: they'd put it down.

[07:31] Bob Dobbs: They'd put McLuhan down rapidly.

[07:34] Cameron McEwen: Why do you say they?

[07:36] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[07:36] Bob Dobbs: they're plural.

[07:37] Bob Dobbs: They're actually anti-environment.

[07:38] Bob Dobbs: They're not entities.

[07:40] Bob Dobbs: They're not channel entities.

[07:41] Bob Dobbs: They are the actual

[07:45] Bob Dobbs: Jewish term,

[07:46] Bob Dobbs: the guff,

[07:47] Bob Dobbs: G-U-F.

[07:47] Bob Dobbs: That's how they define themselves.

[07:49] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[07:49] Bob Dobbs: what's the guff?

[07:50] Bob Dobbs: If you look it up on Wikipedia,

[07:51] Bob Dobbs: it's the place in Jewish religion where souls go.

[07:55] Bob Dobbs: Or in other words,

[07:56] Bob Dobbs: heaven.

[07:57] Bob Dobbs: So there's apparently a theological view of the Bible that says that heaven will merge with earth at some point at the second coming,

[08:11] Bob Dobbs: approximately,

[08:12] Bob Dobbs: of Jesus Christ.

[08:13] Bob Dobbs: Have you ever heard of that idea?

[08:15] Cameron McEwen: No.

[08:16] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[08:17] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[08:17] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[08:18] Cameron McEwen: let's differentiate.

[08:20] Cameron McEwen: Have I ever heard of apocalypse,

[08:23] Cameron McEwen: man to the world,

[08:24] Cameron McEwen: and all that?

[08:24] Cameron McEwen: Of course I have.

[08:25] Cameron McEwen: I've never heard about guff or something,

[08:28] Cameron McEwen: no.

[08:29] Bob Dobbs: Right,

[08:30] Bob Dobbs: and you haven't heard the point that heaven merges with earth?

[08:34] Cameron McEwen: No.

[08:35] Bob Dobbs: After the

[08:35] Bob Dobbs: Armageddon and Apocalypse.

[08:37] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[08:38] Bob Dobbs: that's apparently,

[08:38] Bob Dobbs: according to Ion,

[08:39] Bob Dobbs: what scripture is all about.

[08:41] Bob Dobbs: And I think other religions predict this.

[08:45] Bob Dobbs: So,

[08:45] Bob Dobbs: Ion is the manifestation of that.

[08:47] Bob Dobbs: It is non-physical,

[08:49] Bob Dobbs: or heaven,

[08:50] Bob Dobbs: or the guff that is merged with physical.

[08:54] Bob Dobbs: So...

[08:55] Bob Dobbs: For six months,

[08:56] Bob Dobbs: me talking to Ion,

[08:57] Bob Dobbs: which,

[08:58] Bob Dobbs: to my delight,

[08:59] Bob Dobbs: would talk for endless hours for free.

[09:02] Bob Dobbs: I didn't have to pay for it.

[09:04] Bob Dobbs: The Emmerings was $500 for an hour.

[09:07] Bob Dobbs: And I did 24 years of sessions with them.

[09:11] Bob Dobbs: 64 sessions,

[09:12] Bob Dobbs: I think.

[09:13] Bob Dobbs: A lot of money spent from 1980 to 2004.

[09:22] Bob Dobbs: But with Ion,

[09:23] Bob Dobbs: I could talk every night as long as I wanted.

[09:25] Bob Dobbs: And

[09:27] Bob Dobbs: JW's experience of this,

[09:28] Bob Dobbs: JW,

[09:29] Bob Dobbs: the person that Ion spoke through,

[09:32] Bob Dobbs: he loved it because while he was Innis altered state,

[09:36] Bob Dobbs: he'd be feeling a permanent,

[09:39] Bob Dobbs: a constant orgasm.

[09:42] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if he felt a joy in the experience or when he woke,

[09:45] Bob Dobbs: came out of the,

[09:45] Bob Dobbs: I don't like to say woke up,

[09:46] Bob Dobbs: when he came out of the altered state,

[09:48] Bob Dobbs: his memory of what he'd just been experiencing was a constant orgasm.

[09:53] Bob Dobbs: But,

[09:54] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[09:54] Bob Dobbs: because it's...

[09:55] Bob Dobbs: There's no time in J.W.'s experience of this situation,

[10:00] Bob Dobbs: very little.

[10:03] Bob Dobbs: It's a mystery what ion is.

[10:05] Bob Dobbs: That's very dramatic to say that the final merging of heaven and earth is evoked by Bob accidentally on March 18,

[10:15] Bob Dobbs: 2009.

[10:17] Cameron McEwen: Why don't you,

[10:19] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[10:19] Cameron McEwen: it's typical of the Gutenberg galaxy to imagine that truth and reality and finality are singular.

[10:30] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[10:30] Bob Dobbs: that's...

[10:31] Bob Dobbs: That's not what Ion says.

[10:33] Bob Dobbs: Ion totally agrees with you.

[10:34] Bob Dobbs: And my dating things and making linear,

[10:39] Bob Dobbs: Ion will have none of it.

[10:41] Bob Dobbs: That's why Ion says two important books to read are the Bible and Finnegans Wake.

[10:45] Bob Dobbs: The two books that bracket,

[10:47] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[10:48] Bob Dobbs: the Gutenberg Galaxy.

[10:50] Bob Dobbs: So

[10:51] Bob Dobbs: Ion is very up with you,

[10:53] Bob Dobbs: Ewen Cameron.

[10:54] Bob Dobbs: You don't know it.

[10:55] Bob Dobbs: You haven't heard Ion talk,

[10:56] Bob Dobbs: but I know Ion.

[10:58] Bob Dobbs: I know what they say.

[10:59] Bob Dobbs: And matter of fact.

[11:01] Bob Dobbs: When you ask questions,

[11:02] Bob Dobbs: you're not allowed to basically eye and object to what he called six degrees of separation.

[11:09] Bob Dobbs: Who,

[11:09] Bob Dobbs: what,

[11:09] Bob Dobbs: when,

[11:09] Bob Dobbs: where,

[11:10] Bob Dobbs: why,

[11:10] Bob Dobbs: how?

[11:11] Bob Dobbs: No such things exist.

[11:13] Bob Dobbs: So that's Antigonish space there.

[11:17] Cameron McEwen: But that's what I mean by

[11:21] Cameron McEwen: Gutenberg perspective.

[11:23] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[11:25] Cameron McEwen: you were talking about the merger of the physical and heaven,

[11:28] Cameron McEwen: right?

[11:29] Cameron McEwen: So merger.

[11:32] Cameron McEwen: is the idea that what was different is going to become the same.

[11:42] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[11:42] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[11:43] Bob Dobbs: ION doesn't say they become the same,

[11:45] Bob Dobbs: but they start interacting very closely.

[11:50] Cameron McEwen: All right.

[11:50] Bob Dobbs: The veil is gone.

[11:52] Bob Dobbs: That's the technical term.

[11:53] Bob Dobbs: The veil has been thinning,

[11:54] Bob Dobbs: and now it's gone.

[11:57] Bob Dobbs: The veil shows up in...

[11:58] Bob Dobbs: religious literature that term maybe you've heard it yeah of course yeah so the veil is gone uh now that's a finality that's Ewen Cameron finality it's sort of been thinning and going and maybe

[12:14] Bob Dobbs: we may have completed the process if you talk to ian about it so um uh for over six or so months iON uh i was just learning what the hell am i talking to i did no clue

[12:29] Bob Dobbs: I didn't know how significant it was going to be.

[12:32] Bob Dobbs: And

[12:35] Bob Dobbs: I would not have me discuss McLuhan or anybody,

[12:39] Bob Dobbs: Bucky Fuller.

[12:39] Bob Dobbs: If they had died,

[12:41] Bob Dobbs: they weren't worth talking about.

[12:43] Bob Dobbs: So I found out from

[12:44] Bob Dobbs: Ion's point of view that all those that never died are significant humans,

[12:50] Bob Dobbs: like St.

[12:51] Bob Dobbs: Germain and

[12:53] Bob Dobbs: Abraham, you know,

[12:55] Bob Dobbs: the guy that almost sacrificed his son,

[12:57] Bob Dobbs: his wife Sarah.

[12:58] Bob Dobbs: still around,

[12:58] Bob Dobbs: listens to the show regularly,

[13:01] Bob Dobbs: and all kinds of other crazy stuff.

[13:04] Bob Dobbs: Those people Ion talks about.

[13:07] Cameron McEwen: You said

[13:09] Cameron McEwen: Saint Germain or something?

[13:10] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[13:10] Bob Dobbs: Saint Germain is a famous mystic.

[13:12] Bob Dobbs: There's cults around Saint Germain.

[13:14] Bob Dobbs: He lived 200 or 300 years ago.

[13:17] Bob Dobbs: He never died.

[13:19] Bob Dobbs: Been around a long time.

[13:21] Bob Dobbs: Still involved today.

[13:22] Bob Dobbs: He was actually very involved with 9-1-1,

[13:24] Bob Dobbs: but that's a whole other,

[13:25] Bob Dobbs: we're not going to get into Ion stuff,

[13:27] Bob Dobbs: okay?

[13:27] Bob Dobbs: I'm just giving you the introduction of the tech body.

[13:31] Bob Dobbs: So after six months or so,

[13:33] Bob Dobbs: Ian had been considering my Tiny Note chart and my five-body model.

[13:38] Bob Dobbs: He said,

[13:38] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[13:38] Bob Dobbs: Bob,

[13:39] Bob Dobbs: we're going to allow you to discuss in your terms the five-body model and...

[13:45] Bob Dobbs: What was the other thing?

[13:51] Bob Dobbs: The tetrad,

[13:51] Bob Dobbs: say,

[13:52] Bob Dobbs: but...

[13:53] Bob Dobbs: No,

[13:53] Bob Dobbs: five-body model and...

[13:55] Bob Dobbs: Do you remember me saying?

[13:57] Bob Dobbs: I don't know.

[13:58] Bob Dobbs: My Tiny Note chart.

[13:59] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[14:00] Bob Dobbs: Tiny Note chart.

[14:01] Bob Dobbs: So,

[14:02] Bob Dobbs: but he said,

[14:03] Bob Dobbs: if you mention McLuhan,

[14:04] Bob Dobbs: that's okay.

[14:06] Bob Dobbs: But after you say what McLuhan says,

[14:08] Bob Dobbs: you quote McLuhan,

[14:09] Bob Dobbs: you then must say,

[14:10] Bob Dobbs: however,

[14:11] Bob Dobbs: Bob says,

[14:14] Bob Dobbs: and that was the rule.

[14:15] Bob Dobbs: I always had to qualify whatever McLuhan said.

[14:18] Bob Dobbs: And that was okay with me because I thought I had gone,

[14:21] Bob Dobbs: quote,

[14:22] Bob Dobbs: past McLuhan with the five-body model that he didn't get to.

[14:26] Bob Dobbs: I had the advantage of the chip body era.

[14:29] Bob Dobbs: He didn't,

[14:30] Bob Dobbs: though he made some general points.

[14:32] Bob Dobbs: So

[14:33] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan was useful up to a point.

[14:37] Bob Dobbs: But then when I...

[14:40] Bob Dobbs: talking about my five bodies and then mentioned the phatic body which was the sixth position which my Tiny Note chart predicts remember the hex advertisement the advertising for the exotic sixth level um there's

[14:56] Bob Dobbs: a body associated with it and it's involved with all the transformation that's happened in the world since march 18 2009 that ion claims to be a catalyst for

[15:11] Bob Dobbs: through Carolyn and

[15:12] Bob Dobbs: I, including the Arab Spring.

[15:14] Bob Dobbs: So

[15:15] Bob Dobbs: Ion Macy's preposterous claims that pretty well everything that's happened since the crash of 2000,

[15:20] Bob Dobbs: the fall of 2008,

[15:21] Bob Dobbs: the economic American Wall Street crash,

[15:23] Bob Dobbs: has been organized by Ion.

[15:28] Bob Dobbs: But about two years ago,

[15:30] Bob Dobbs: a year and a half,

[15:33] Bob Dobbs: let's see,

[15:34] Bob Dobbs: Trump been president for a few years.

[15:37] Bob Dobbs: Ion started talking about the tech body.

[15:40] Bob Dobbs: So what's that?

[15:41] Bob Dobbs: And ION was not that forthcoming in describing it.

[15:46] Bob Dobbs: Little drops were provided.

[15:48] Bob Dobbs: You can go to one of my websites,

[15:51] Bob Dobbs: iONdom,

[15:52] Bob Dobbs: and look up the tech body section,

[15:54] Bob Dobbs: and I have all the different excerpts from my private sessions with ION or stuff he said in public on the radio,

[16:02] Bob Dobbs: inventorying different stages of what the tech body is,

[16:06] Bob Dobbs: or different definitions.

[16:08] Bob Dobbs: So the tech body,

[16:11] Bob Dobbs: let's see,

[16:16] Bob Dobbs: so I started talking about it in 2019 after a two-year hiatus.

[16:23] Bob Dobbs: It came back in April 2019.

[16:27] Bob Dobbs: They talked to us in that hiatus,

[16:29] Bob Dobbs: but they weren't doing public stuff because

[16:32] Bob Dobbs: Trump become president.

[16:34] Bob Dobbs: I knew there'd be nothing but people asking about Trump.

[16:37] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[16:37] Bob Dobbs: the mania of,

[16:38] Bob Dobbs: say,

[16:38] Bob Dobbs: 2017,

[16:40] Bob Dobbs: early 2017 up to 2019,

[16:43] Bob Dobbs: people obsessed Trump.

[16:45] Bob Dobbs: And I consider that a huge distraction and wasn't going to engage people who would only ask about that.

[16:52] Bob Dobbs: So withdrew from the public scene on purpose.

[16:57] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[16:57] Bob Dobbs: here's an interesting point.

[17:00] Bob Dobbs: Q shows up.

[17:01] Bob Dobbs: You've heard of the Q phenomenon,

[17:02] Bob Dobbs: right?

[17:03] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[17:04] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[17:05] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[17:05] Bob Dobbs: when I came back in April 2019,

[17:09] Bob Dobbs: one of the first questions everybody was interested,

[17:12] Bob Dobbs: the regulars,

[17:13] Bob Dobbs: was what the hell is this Q thing?

[17:14] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[17:15] Bob Dobbs: the Q thing was from the astral plane,

[17:18] Bob Dobbs: and it was set up by ion to fill in while ion was not available for two years.

[17:23] Bob Dobbs: So

[17:24] Bob Dobbs: I don't think any of the Q people know this.

[17:27] Bob Dobbs: They haven't contacted us.

[17:28] Bob Dobbs: They haven't heard us speak about it.

[17:30] Bob Dobbs: But anyways,

[17:31] Bob Dobbs: Q is a subplot of ion.

[17:34] Bob Dobbs: And once Ayan came back in 2019,

[17:37] Bob Dobbs: Q started to get talked about by the New York Times and the major media,

[17:40] Bob Dobbs: which kills the topic.

[17:42] Bob Dobbs: If you get on that level,

[17:43] Bob Dobbs: you're gone.

[17:44] Bob Dobbs: The people who want you to be different don't like mainstream banalization of it.

[17:50] Bob Dobbs: So Q started to falter,

[17:52] Bob Dobbs: and I don't even know what its status is now.

[17:55] Bob Dobbs: It's not that prominent.

[17:57] Bob Dobbs: But we're prominent,

[17:58] Bob Dobbs: and we're better than Q.

[18:00] Bob Dobbs: So,

[18:00] Bob Dobbs: or at least Ayan is.

[18:01] Bob Dobbs: So you have.

[18:04] Cameron McEwen: regular postings from

[18:08] Cameron McEwen: Q on your website.

[18:10] Bob Dobbs: No,

[18:11] Bob Dobbs: we don't promote Q.

[18:12] Bob Dobbs: We never did.

[18:14] Cameron McEwen: I don't call it a promotion,

[18:16] Cameron McEwen: but certainly you have broadcasts about,

[18:22] Cameron McEwen: I never listen to them,

[18:23] Cameron McEwen: so I don't know if they're by or about.

[18:26] Bob Dobbs: By Q?

[18:27] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[18:29] Cameron McEwen: almost every day.

[18:31] Bob Dobbs: I've never seen those.

[18:33] Bob Dobbs: What website are you talking about?

[18:36] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[18:37] Cameron McEwen: Iron and Bob.

[18:39] Bob Dobbs: Wow.

[18:39] Bob Dobbs: No,

[18:40] Bob Dobbs: there's no Q.

[18:43] Bob Dobbs: Maybe occasionally Ed,

[18:45] Bob Dobbs: who runs it,

[18:45] Bob Dobbs: and he lives on another Hawaiian island,

[18:47] Bob Dobbs: Kauai,

[18:48] Bob Dobbs: the most primitive island.

[18:51] Bob Dobbs: He may excerpt Q,

[18:53] Bob Dobbs: but I haven't seen that in months.

[18:56] Bob Dobbs: No,

[18:56] Bob Dobbs: no,

[18:57] Bob Dobbs: we don't promote Q.

[18:59] Bob Dobbs: There may be some.

[19:00] Bob Dobbs: What happens is there's...

[19:04] Bob Dobbs: Ed Long scans the fringe media,

[19:08] Bob Dobbs: the band media,

[19:10] Bob Dobbs: and all these different speakers and features them.

[19:12] Bob Dobbs: They talk about Q.

[19:15] Cameron McEwen: Maybe,

[19:15] Cameron McEwen: because I don't listen.

[19:17] Cameron McEwen: I don't know what they're about.

[19:19] Bob Dobbs: Are you saying you see the word Q?

[19:20] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[19:22] Cameron McEwen: sure.

[19:23] Bob Dobbs: Wow,

[19:23] Bob Dobbs: no,

[19:23] Bob Dobbs: I've never seen that.

[19:25] Bob Dobbs: I'll look again,

[19:25] Bob Dobbs: but I look at it every day.

[19:27] Bob Dobbs: I don't know.

[19:29] Bob Dobbs: Anyway.

[19:29] Cameron McEwen: I'll send you a link.

[19:32] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[19:32] Bob Dobbs: but no,

[19:33] Bob Dobbs: I want to see how it looks.

[19:34] Bob Dobbs: Take a picture.

[19:36] Cameron McEwen: So here's,

[19:37] Cameron McEwen: for example,

[19:38] Cameron McEwen: on the 5th of April,

[19:39] Cameron McEwen: so a couple days ago,

[19:41] Cameron McEwen: you've got the

[19:42] Cameron McEwen: X-22 report.

[19:45] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[19:46] Cameron McEwen: So isn't X-22 associated with Q?

[19:53] Bob Dobbs: I don't know anything about it.

[19:55] Bob Dobbs: What it is usually,

[19:57] Bob Dobbs: there's a lot of these characters that Ed puts on.

[19:59] Bob Dobbs: X-22 is one of them.

[20:00] Bob Dobbs: I just listened to one the other day for the first time.

[20:03] Bob Dobbs: They are interested in Q.

[20:05] Bob Dobbs: They talk about Q,

[20:06] Bob Dobbs: but there's no title Q in the entry you're talking about.

[20:13] Cameron McEwen: Not in that particular one,

[20:15] Cameron McEwen: but there are in others.

[20:16] Cameron McEwen: But anyway,

[20:18] Cameron McEwen: it's not important.

[20:20] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[20:20] Bob Dobbs: no,

[20:20] Bob Dobbs: it's important if people think we're promoting Q.

[20:23] Bob Dobbs: And Ed is playing these people who talk about Q,

[20:27] Bob Dobbs: pro and con.

[20:29] Bob Dobbs: But we don't.

[20:31] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[20:32] Bob Dobbs: he's just posting these.

[20:33] Bob Dobbs: These people and what they say,

[20:35] Bob Dobbs: if they talk about Q,

[20:36] Bob Dobbs: that's okay.

[20:37] Bob Dobbs: They talk about it,

[20:38] Bob Dobbs: but it's not the only thing they talk about.

[20:42] Bob Dobbs: But a lot of them are oriented around,

[20:45] Bob Dobbs: their big picture is Q derivative,

[20:48] Bob Dobbs: you know?

[20:48] Bob Dobbs: They really try to ransack Q's posts over the last couple of years to see pointers to what's happening to today.

[20:55] Bob Dobbs: And they'll claim there's prophetic stuff.

[20:57] Bob Dobbs: But

[21:00] Cameron McEwen: Q is a kind of rival to you,

[21:02] Cameron McEwen: Bob.

[21:04] Bob Dobbs: Me or Ion?

[21:06] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[21:06] Cameron McEwen: I don't know.

[21:07] Bob Dobbs: To the whole group there.

[21:13] Bob Dobbs: But that's the point,

[21:15] Bob Dobbs: is that it fits.

[21:17] Bob Dobbs: When Q started happening,

[21:18] Bob Dobbs: a couple of people who were familiar with Ion,

[21:22] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[21:22] Bob Dobbs: very familiar,

[21:23] Bob Dobbs: they thought Q was Ion.

[21:25] Bob Dobbs: They could see a similarity or something.

[21:28] Bob Dobbs: And

[21:29] Bob Dobbs: I assured them,

[21:30] Bob Dobbs: no,

[21:31] Bob Dobbs: we were not Q.

[21:32] Bob Dobbs: but I didn't

[21:33] Bob Dobbs: tell me what he told two years later that they were a subplot.

[21:38] Bob Dobbs: Matter of fact,

[21:38] Bob Dobbs: we never talked about Q at all much.

[21:40] Bob Dobbs: But when Ayan came back in April 2019,

[21:43] Bob Dobbs: people wanted to know about Q,

[21:45] Bob Dobbs: so then Ayan gave their statement about it.

[21:48] Bob Dobbs: But

[21:49] Bob Dobbs: Ed features these people with their different views,

[21:51] Bob Dobbs: and they do all kinds of stuff,

[21:53] Bob Dobbs: but a lot of them have Q.

[21:54] Bob Dobbs: But Ed's not promoting anybody.

[21:57] Bob Dobbs: He just shows the range of alternative views.

[22:01] Bob Dobbs: The counter with the mainstream stuff.

[22:05] Bob Dobbs: And he's very good at it.

[22:06] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[22:06] Bob Dobbs: I've enjoyed a lot of the people he's found.

[22:10] Bob Dobbs: Just as an interesting what's going on.

[22:12] Bob Dobbs: I've always been interested in the fringe and track it.

[22:17] Bob Dobbs: And Ed provides that for me.

[22:19] Bob Dobbs: I never asked him.

[22:20] Bob Dobbs: He did it on his own.

[22:22] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[22:22] Bob Dobbs: so.

[22:27] Cameron McEwen: You're going through the.

[22:28] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[22:28] Bob Dobbs: the tech body.

[22:30] Bob Dobbs: So I'm explaining the hexadic body was the world.

[22:36] Bob Dobbs: See,

[22:37] Bob Dobbs: every one of my bodies is originally a landscape.

[22:41] Bob Dobbs: Television was a landscape when it was the hidden ground of the

[22:45] Bob Dobbs: 50s and 60s,

[22:45] Bob Dobbs: say.

[22:47] Bob Dobbs: Once everything is digitized,

[22:50] Bob Dobbs: then those landscapes,

[22:51] Bob Dobbs: TV and radio,

[22:52] Bob Dobbs: become little nodes on your Palm Pilot 20 years ago or on your smartphone.

[23:00] Bob Dobbs: they become miniaturized and shrunk.

[23:03] Bob Dobbs: And that is changing a TV landscape to a content of the digital

[23:10] Bob Dobbs: TV body.

[23:11] Bob Dobbs: So we've been adding...

[23:13] Cameron McEwen: So you don't mean that the old landscapes have shrunk in a physical sense.

[23:23] Cameron McEwen: You mean that the new media...

[23:29] Cameron McEwen: refigure the old media,

[23:33] Cameron McEwen: and they don't disappear,

[23:36] Cameron McEwen: but they become transfigured.

[23:39] Bob Dobbs: Right,

[23:39] Bob Dobbs: and for young people,

[23:41] Bob Dobbs: they didn't experience television like we did,

[23:43] Bob Dobbs: or radio.

[23:45] Bob Dobbs: It's just a screen inside their smartphone.

[23:48] Bob Dobbs: Like,

[23:48] Bob Dobbs: they don't even,

[23:49] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[23:49] Bob Dobbs: it's not even TV.

[23:51] Cameron McEwen: Sure,

[23:51] Cameron McEwen: it's,

[23:53] Cameron McEwen: I think it's the,

[23:55] Cameron McEwen: exactly like

[23:57] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan.

[23:59] Cameron McEwen: experience radio in a way that people of a later generation like myself never did.

[24:08] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[24:09] Cameron McEwen: And that's because radio at a certain point in time,

[24:15] Cameron McEwen: I don't know,

[24:16] Cameron McEwen: 1910 to 19,

[24:20] Cameron McEwen: I don't know.

[24:21] Bob Dobbs: 50?

[24:22] Bob Dobbs: 50,

[24:22] Cameron McEwen: let's say.

[24:23] Bob Dobbs: Transistors in the 50s.

[24:24] Bob Dobbs: Transistor radios in the late 50s,

[24:26] Bob Dobbs: early 60s.

[24:28] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[24:28] Cameron McEwen: But radio was,

[24:31] Cameron McEwen: for example,

[24:32] Cameron McEwen: I can remember listening to the World Series in recess.

[24:40] Cameron McEwen: in Regina when I was in grade four or something.

[24:46] Cameron McEwen: And for us,

[24:50] Cameron McEwen: that radio coming out of

[24:53] Cameron McEwen: New York,

[24:53] Cameron McEwen: because the Yankees were the only team in the World Series for those years in the early

[24:59] Cameron McEwen: 50s.

[25:02] Cameron McEwen: For us,

[25:04] Cameron McEwen: the radio was sort of...

[25:08] Cameron McEwen: our window to the world.

[25:12] Cameron McEwen: But that was something that happened in recess,

[25:17] Cameron McEwen: and we also,

[25:19] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[25:19] Cameron McEwen: had a television at home and all this sort of stuff.

[25:22] Cameron McEwen: So

[25:22] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan knew the period when the radio was the only window,

[25:28] Cameron McEwen: and so then he brings that experience of radio into his later experiences with other media.

[25:38] Cameron McEwen: And

[25:39] Cameron McEwen: I think what we're talking about here with the different landscapes or the different bodies is that process of reconfiguration,

[25:53] Cameron McEwen: of transformation that occurs whenever you have new media.

[26:00] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[26:00] Bob Dobbs: And the landscape phase is when it's a general anti-environment everybody's sharing.

[26:05] Bob Dobbs: It's all the same.

[26:07] Bob Dobbs: Once you have digital customization and different kinds of way people have phones,

[26:12] Bob Dobbs: that's taking the landscape and shrinking it so it's an organ attached to your chemical body or it's a body itself.

[26:20] Bob Dobbs: I like to say it's a new body overlaid to chemical body or the physical body.

[26:25] Bob Dobbs: And so that's a later phase.

[26:29] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[26:30] Bob Dobbs: So the phatic was anti-environment with ion.

[26:34] Bob Dobbs: I claim that ION,

[26:35] Bob Dobbs: as I got to understand ION through the years,

[26:37] Bob Dobbs: is a new technology and a anti-environment,

[26:39] Bob Dobbs: a anti-environment.

[26:41] Bob Dobbs: And so it was called the Phatic by me and ION.

[26:46] Bob Dobbs: But then in 2019,

[26:48] Bob Dobbs: you start talking about the tech body.

[26:52] Bob Dobbs: Following the principle that a landscape has become miniaturized or reconfigured,

[26:57] Bob Dobbs: tech body is technically,

[26:59] Bob Dobbs: within ION's language,

[27:01] Bob Dobbs: the Postman.

[27:03] Bob Dobbs: phase of the phatic,

[27:06] Bob Dobbs: right?

[27:06] Bob Dobbs: The phatic landscape becomes the tech body.

[27:12] Cameron McEwen: So is this the seventh body?

[27:15] Bob Dobbs: It's a mutation of the sixth body,

[27:17] Bob Dobbs: a reconfiguring of the sixth body because the five bodies were the physical body,

[27:23] Bob Dobbs: which I call the chemical body because chemical

[27:26] Bob Dobbs: Western science dominated the imaging of that for 150 years.

[27:30] Bob Dobbs: And then you have the astrobody,

[27:32] Bob Dobbs: traditional non-physical phenomena in different cultures.

[27:36] Bob Dobbs: Then you have the TV body,

[27:38] Bob Dobbs: and then you have the chip body,

[27:40] Bob Dobbs: and then you have the mystery body.

[27:42] Bob Dobbs: But at the time

[27:44] Bob Dobbs: I made the body terms,

[27:47] Bob Dobbs: I didn't know anything about the interior landscape,

[27:49] Bob Dobbs: so it was still a landscape.

[27:51] Bob Dobbs: Then Ian shows up and Explorations the interior landscape,

[27:55] Bob Dobbs: so we start to know the mystery body.

[27:57] Bob Dobbs: So those were the five bodies.

[27:59] Bob Dobbs: Thanks.

[28:00] Bob Dobbs: For years,

[28:00] Bob Dobbs: I only described four of them because I didn't know anything about the interior landscape.

[28:05] Bob Dobbs: I just supposed there was stuff we didn't know we're going to find out about.

[28:09] Bob Dobbs: And I was right.

[28:10] Bob Dobbs: Ion showed up to be part of the interior landscape and to explain it,

[28:14] Bob Dobbs: therefore making it knowable.

[28:16] Bob Dobbs: And so that's the tech body.

[28:18] Bob Dobbs: So in 2019,

[28:22] Bob Dobbs: we started to hear Ion talk about the tech body.

[28:25] Bob Dobbs: And it was something out there.

[28:32] Bob Dobbs: Some people thought,

[28:32] Bob Dobbs: oh,

[28:33] Bob Dobbs: it's the Android Meme Bob's Android Meme.

[28:35] Bob Dobbs: But no,

[28:36] Bob Dobbs: Ian said this is beyond the Android Meme.

[28:40] Bob Dobbs: And I explain in the pamphlet what I mean by Android Meme,

[28:44] Bob Dobbs: phase one and phase two,

[28:45] Bob Dobbs: before you get to the tech body.

[28:47] Bob Dobbs: But we're at the end of the pamphlet,

[28:50] Bob Dobbs: and we're dealing with the tech body.

[28:53] Cameron McEwen: We'll go into that,

[28:54] Cameron McEwen: but backwards.

[28:56] Bob Dobbs: But we're given the punchline,

[28:58] Bob Dobbs: and we're going to explain the joke.

[29:01] Bob Dobbs: That may take a while.

[29:03] Bob Dobbs: So,

[29:04] Bob Dobbs: and I don't mean by joke,

[29:06] Bob Dobbs: it's not serious.

[29:07] Bob Dobbs: I think it's very serious,

[29:08] Bob Dobbs: but just making a joke about being serious.

[29:16] Bob Dobbs: So in 2019,

[29:19] Bob Dobbs: we've Trump running around for a couple of years,

[29:24] Bob Dobbs: and I am starting to explain the little bits here and there what the tech body is.

[29:28] Bob Dobbs: Then one day...

[29:29] Bob Dobbs: They said that the tech body put Trump the White House.

[29:35] Bob Dobbs: How does that happen?

[29:36] Bob Dobbs: And that led to more questions about the tech body and more information about it.

[29:42] Bob Dobbs: I,

[29:44] Bob Dobbs: the first main thing that Ion said about the tech body is that,

[29:49] Bob Dobbs: and we were surprised by this,

[29:51] Bob Dobbs: that it was

[29:52] Bob Dobbs: 811ths, 11 parts in the tech body.

[29:55] Bob Dobbs: 811ths was Ion,

[29:57] Bob Dobbs: and 311ths was the tech body.

[30:00] Bob Dobbs: And what the hell is that?

[30:01] Cameron McEwen: I didn't understand,

[30:03] Cameron McEwen: I didn't get the word you used for 811th.

[30:06] Bob Dobbs: Ion.

[30:08] Cameron McEwen: Okay.

[30:09] Bob Dobbs: So here was Ion saying they were part of the tech body.

[30:12] Bob Dobbs: And

[30:14] Bob Dobbs: 311th was something that Ion wasn't part of,

[30:17] Bob Dobbs: or it had its own autonomy.

[30:19] Bob Dobbs: So that was the first conundrum in the definition of the tech body,

[30:24] Bob Dobbs: is that it was 823 parts.

[30:28] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[30:29] Bob Dobbs: over the last year and a half,

[30:32] Bob Dobbs: tech body has been talked more and more about by Ion.

[30:39] Bob Dobbs: So since I was trying to make the tech body be something new and see if I could make McLuhan anticipate it,

[30:47] Bob Dobbs: because somewhere in there,

[30:48] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan,

[30:49] Bob Dobbs: Ion said one day that the only person who anticipated the tech body was McLuhan.

[30:54] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[30:54] Bob Dobbs: I think Kroker does it too,

[30:57] Bob Dobbs: but that becomes a quibble between me and Ion.

[31:00] Bob Dobbs: For modern thinkers,

[31:01] Bob Dobbs: no one predicted the tech body other than McLuhan,

[31:04] Bob Dobbs: as Ion understands the tech body,

[31:06] Bob Dobbs: which...

[31:07] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if anybody else understands tech body as Ion does,

[31:10] Bob Dobbs: but I thought,

[31:11] Bob Dobbs: wow,

[31:11] Bob Dobbs: that's pretty neat.

[31:12] Bob Dobbs: And I think that was one of the inspirations after I was sick of these McLuhan cliches in the McLuhan conferences in 2000.

[31:25] Bob Dobbs: I said,

[31:25] Bob Dobbs: well,

[31:26] Bob Dobbs: if McLuhan predicted tech body,

[31:28] Bob Dobbs: let me see if I can build Cayce on that,

[31:30] Bob Dobbs: right?

[31:31] Bob Dobbs: Let's see if I can find stuff in McLuhan that points to that.

[31:34] Bob Dobbs: And that's what I did.

[31:36] Bob Dobbs: What we didn't know was the tech body created Trump.

[31:40] Bob Dobbs: So we have to explain what the hell is this tech body and how does it rule the public landscape like this?

[31:47] Bob Dobbs: So I learned more and more about it.

[31:49] Bob Dobbs: And then when I got to the end of my pamphlet,

[31:53] Bob Dobbs: I said,

[31:55] Bob Dobbs: maybe I could talk to the tech body.

[31:57] Bob Dobbs: That would be a really good exclusive for the book,

[31:59] Bob Dobbs: right?

[32:00] Bob Dobbs: Here we are talking about something that we've arrived at.

[32:03] Bob Dobbs: Hard to say what it is,

[32:06] Bob Dobbs: but

[32:07] Bob Dobbs: I bet Ion will let me talk to the tech body,

[32:09] Bob Dobbs: and Ion did.

[32:11] Bob Dobbs: And that's what we have here.

[32:13] Bob Dobbs: This is the first interaction with the tech body as its own autonomous entity or phenomenon,

[32:20] Bob Dobbs: as opposed to being described by Ion,

[32:23] Bob Dobbs: which is what we had up to this point.

[32:25] Bob Dobbs: And this interview was done in October 2020,

[32:30] Bob Dobbs: maybe October 12,

[32:31] Bob Dobbs: 2020.

[32:33] Bob Dobbs: That's when I interviewed the tech body.

[32:37] Cameron McEwen: This is the tech body speaking through ION.

[32:40] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[32:41] Cameron McEwen: And are you able to differentiate between some entity speaking through ION as opposed to

[32:55] Cameron McEwen: ION speaking through,

[32:58] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[32:59] Cameron McEwen: like a dummy,

[33:00] Cameron McEwen: like a ventriloquist dummy?

[33:01] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[33:02] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[33:04] Bob Dobbs: well,

[33:04] Bob Dobbs: I didn't know what the tech body would sound like.

[33:06] Bob Dobbs: So as I start to talk to it,

[33:10] Bob Dobbs: I realize it's a little more,

[33:13] Bob Dobbs: say,

[33:13] Bob Dobbs: cynical,

[33:15] Bob Dobbs: edgy,

[33:16] Bob Dobbs: less compassionate,

[33:18] Bob Dobbs: more uncaring than ION presents itself.

[33:22] Bob Dobbs: And that's,

[33:25] Bob Dobbs: you can hear the difference.

[33:27] Bob Dobbs: So once I did this interview,

[33:30] Bob Dobbs: I then did another interview later.

[33:33] Bob Dobbs: Because this one was all about McLuhan.

[33:35] Bob Dobbs: That's what this is about.

[33:36] Bob Dobbs: What's the tech body say about McLuhan?

[33:40] Bob Dobbs: But then once I realized I could talk to the tech body,

[33:42] Bob Dobbs: separate from ION,

[33:44] Bob Dobbs: I did a couple interviews,

[33:45] Bob Dobbs: which are on the website you can listen to,

[33:47] Bob Dobbs: and they're funny,

[33:49] Bob Dobbs: they're weird,

[33:52] Bob Dobbs: ION is weird.

[33:53] Bob Dobbs: Then the tech body,

[33:56] Bob Dobbs: because I was starting to talk to it,

[33:57] Bob Dobbs: it started to take over the show and become this mean,

[34:01] Bob Dobbs: interrupting thing.

[34:03] Bob Dobbs: Not like ion.

[34:04] Bob Dobbs: And we've had to deal with that for six months.

[34:09] Bob Dobbs: And it gets quite irritating when the tech body takes over.

[34:11] Bob Dobbs: There's a definite difference between the tech body and ion.

[34:15] Bob Dobbs: Unless it's ion putting on the tech body.

[34:18] Bob Dobbs: That's a possibility.

[34:21] Bob Dobbs: So it came to a couple months ago,

[34:24] Bob Dobbs: tech body is dominating more and more on the show and irritating people.

[34:30] Bob Dobbs: I said...

[34:31] Bob Dobbs: Is it still 8 to 3,

[34:33] Bob Dobbs: 8

[34:34] Bob Dobbs: 11th ion,

[34:35] Bob Dobbs: 3 11th tech body?

[34:36] Bob Dobbs: They said no,

[34:37] Bob Dobbs: it's now

[34:38] Bob Dobbs: 6 11th ion and 5

[34:41] Bob Dobbs: 11th tech body.

[34:44] Bob Dobbs: And the tech body is getting stronger.

[34:46] Bob Dobbs: And Ion later said,

[34:48] Bob Dobbs: yes,

[34:48] Bob Dobbs: it's hard for us to maintain this slight majority position.

[34:53] Bob Dobbs: There's a real struggle with the tech body,

[34:55] Bob Dobbs: which then is explained by Ion theologically and very interestingly about what this phenomenon is that humanity is up against,

[35:03] Bob Dobbs: the tech body.

[35:05] Bob Dobbs: So it's become very complex and elaborate and amazing.

[35:10] Bob Dobbs: So this interview is kind of simple compared to what...

[35:13] Bob Dobbs: The Tech Body does in subsequent weeks,

[35:16] Bob Dobbs: starting last

[35:18] Bob Dobbs: October. So let me see,

[35:19] Bob Dobbs: what else to say about the Tech Body?

[35:25] Bob Dobbs: There's a funny interview,

[35:27] Bob Dobbs: one of those early ones where at the end I said,

[35:30] Bob Dobbs: we like you,

[35:31] Bob Dobbs: Bob.

[35:32] Bob Dobbs: We're working with you,

[35:33] Bob Dobbs: Bob.

[35:35] Bob Dobbs: We support you,

[35:36] Bob Dobbs: Bob.

[35:36] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[35:36] Bob Dobbs: this sort of devilish Postman voice of pretending they care about me.

[35:44] Bob Dobbs: That's cute.

[35:45] Bob Dobbs: That's interesting.

[35:46] Cameron McEwen: Who's the they there?

[35:48] Bob Dobbs: TechBody.

[35:49] Bob Dobbs: The TechBody.

[35:50] Bob Dobbs: I'm talking to the TechBody,

[35:51] Bob Dobbs: interviewing them,

[35:53] Bob Dobbs: after the one we're going to do here,

[35:55] Bob Dobbs: a month or two later.

[35:57] Cameron McEwen: But you call them plural in the same way you do Ion.

[36:02] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[36:02] Bob Dobbs: I don't think they're plural,

[36:03] Bob Dobbs: but they're everywhere,

[36:04] Bob Dobbs: so they're kind of pluralistic.

[36:06] Bob Dobbs: But yes,

[36:07] Bob Dobbs: Ion is plural.

[36:08] Bob Dobbs: The TechBody is not so much.

[36:12] Bob Dobbs: If I said if I implied the poor don't mean that the tech body as this voice we're saying Bob

[36:18] Bob Dobbs: We like you we want to work with you this seductively sort of Skornia seductive voice came out of the tech

[36:24] Cameron McEwen: Bob we you're using you say the tech body the call.

[36:29] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[36:29] Cameron McEwen: that's right.

[36:30] Bob Dobbs: We did they say we someone noticed that

[36:36] Bob Dobbs: The tech body says

[36:37] Bob Dobbs: I and I and says we

[36:39] Bob Dobbs: But that's not always the case lately.

[36:42] Bob Dobbs: Sometimes I will say

[36:43] Bob Dobbs: I and the tech body say we.

[36:46] Bob Dobbs: But this we is a controversial aspect of yes,

[36:51] Bob Dobbs: I forgot,

[36:52] Bob Dobbs: yes.

[36:52] Bob Dobbs: I consider the tech body a singular thing,

[36:55] Bob Dobbs: and

[36:56] Bob Dobbs: I forgot that they go we like you.

[36:59] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?

[37:00] Cameron McEwen: Isn't this,

[37:01] Cameron McEwen: whatever the relationship between the tech body and I am,

[37:05] Cameron McEwen: isn't it an anti-merger phenomenon?

[37:10] Bob Dobbs: It's a struggle.

[37:11] Bob Dobbs: ION is here to protect the world from the tech body and this leads to another sidebar.

[37:16] Bob Dobbs: That's a term ION uses.

[37:19] Bob Dobbs: So about four years ago or less,

[37:24] Bob Dobbs: I came across this European futurist and he gave a talk to corporate European executives in Rotterdam.

[37:33] Bob Dobbs: So I listened to it on YouTube or someplace and then I said,

[37:37] Bob Dobbs: oh,

[37:37] Bob Dobbs: this is pretty interesting.

[37:38] Bob Dobbs: pretty avant-garde,

[37:39] Bob Dobbs: talking about technology taking over everything.

[37:45] Bob Dobbs: Maybe the kind of talk that the Explorations would say,

[37:48] Bob Dobbs: or

[37:49] Bob Dobbs: Kevin Kelly.

[37:50] Bob Dobbs: He has a term for what I call the tech body.

[37:53] Bob Dobbs: He has another term.

[37:54] Bob Dobbs: Forget what it is.

[37:56] Bob Dobbs: He's been talking about something taking on a life of its own.

[38:01] Bob Dobbs: So the Rotterdam guy,

[38:06] Bob Dobbs: I played his...

[38:08] Bob Dobbs: hour more talk to

[38:10] Bob Dobbs: Ion with Ion stopping whenever they wanted it to be stopped to explain or comment on what the future said.

[38:17] Bob Dobbs: So it ends up to be about a four-hour excursion.

[38:20] Bob Dobbs: And it's really interesting.

[38:22] Bob Dobbs: And

[38:23] Bob Dobbs: I heard this before any talk of the tech body.

[38:26] Bob Dobbs: But one of the main themes the guy was saying is that we will...

[38:30] Bob Dobbs: No,

[38:31] Bob Dobbs: Ion went further than the futurist and said,

[38:34] Bob Dobbs: you will be forced to merge with the

[38:36] Bob Dobbs: technology as it unfolds,

[38:39] Bob Dobbs: which is sort of what McLuhan says.

[38:40] Bob Dobbs: He said back in 1950,

[38:42] Bob Dobbs: we had total fusion.

[38:44] Bob Dobbs: In that letter to Pound,

[38:46] Bob Dobbs: maybe,

[38:46] Bob Dobbs: June 22nd,

[38:48] Bob Dobbs: or maybe it was another one in 1950,

[38:51] Bob Dobbs: not 51,

[38:52] Bob Dobbs: we talked about 1984.

[38:55] Bob Dobbs: I have it in my book.

[38:56] Bob Dobbs: And he talked about Ewen Cameron merger.

[38:58] Bob Dobbs: Do you remember that?

[38:59] Bob Dobbs: And he goes,

[39:00] Bob Dobbs: total fusion.

[39:03] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[39:03] Bob Dobbs: whatever he meant,

[39:04] Bob Dobbs: who knows,

[39:04] Bob Dobbs: but

[39:07] Bob Dobbs: But Ion said that's what's coming when explaining the limitations of the Rotterdam Futurist.

[39:14] Bob Dobbs: So I always recommend,

[39:15] Bob Dobbs: if you want to know what's coming with technology and Ion's position on it,

[39:19] Bob Dobbs: and Ion represents something that's urging you not to merge with technology completely,

[39:27] Bob Dobbs: take the alternative route that we offer with our products and everything.

[39:31] Bob Dobbs: So that you're not a dummy unconsciously merged with the technoscape and rather...

[39:38] Bob Dobbs: oblivious to it all.

[39:40] Bob Dobbs: So,

[39:40] Bob Dobbs: Ion recommends going into this encounter with technology,

[39:43] Bob Dobbs: as it gets more intimate,

[39:44] Bob Dobbs: more conscious.

[39:46] Bob Dobbs: So,

[39:46] Bob Dobbs: that's Ion's position,

[39:47] Bob Dobbs: to make us conscious of what's happening.

[39:49] Bob Dobbs: But Ion,

[39:50] Bob Dobbs: like McLuhan says,

[39:51] Bob Dobbs: it's going to be tough to avoid this stuff.

[39:53] Bob Dobbs: And it's going to go inside you,

[39:55] Bob Dobbs: and you're going to merge with it.

[39:56] Bob Dobbs: Total fusion and all that,

[39:58] Bob Dobbs: that McLuhan would say.

[40:00] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan was quite controversial saying that back in the 60s.

[40:03] Bob Dobbs: A lot of people weren't ready for that.

[40:06] Bob Dobbs: They didn't see the merger coming.

[40:08] Bob Dobbs: as much as McLuhan did.

[40:11] Bob Dobbs: And I'm going to take those quotes back in the

[40:14] Bob Dobbs: 60s to show how he anticipated this fusion with the tech body.

[40:18] Cameron McEwen: But notice,

[40:19] Cameron McEwen: Bob,

[40:19] Cameron McEwen: that merger and fusion and all this stuff,

[40:24] Cameron McEwen: it's very typical of the Gutenberg Galaxy.

[40:27] Bob Dobbs: Yep.

[40:27] Cameron McEwen: So what's interesting about McLuhan talking about this stuff is that people couldn't see what he was talking about when he talked about the urge...

[40:38] Cameron McEwen: to merge and fusion and all that sort of stuff because they were obscured by their ideal of fusion and merger.

[40:48] Bob Dobbs: Yep.

[40:49] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[40:49] Cameron McEwen: They had to go through one notion of merger in order to see what McLuhan was talking about with merger.

[40:57] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[40:57] Bob Dobbs: And that's in his

[40:59] Bob Dobbs: 40s and early 50s criticism.

[41:02] Bob Dobbs: Bergson is the fusion school and McLuhan is not.

[41:05] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan and Lewis are not of the fusion school.

[41:08] Bob Dobbs: Correct?

[41:08] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[41:09] Bob Dobbs: And that's where you learn how to make,

[41:11] Bob Dobbs: you see McLuhan talking about it differently.

[41:13] Bob Dobbs: I remember people reading

[41:15] Bob Dobbs: Understanding Media in the

[41:17] Bob Dobbs: 60s, and they romanticized the fusion that McLuhan sometimes would talk about in the Electric News.

[41:23] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[41:23] Cameron McEwen: of course.

[41:24] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[41:24] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[41:25] Cameron McEwen: there's a whole industry of that.

[41:27] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[41:28] Cameron McEwen: You have people praising McLuhan or denigrating McLuhan for being utopian.

[41:35] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[41:36] Cameron McEwen: for imagining this

[41:38] Cameron McEwen: worlds of universal understanding and stuff.

[41:43] Cameron McEwen: But when McLuhan talks about the universal Pentecostal condition of total understanding,

[41:58] Cameron McEwen: he nearly always brings it into context of the Tower of Babel.

[42:03] Cameron McEwen: And what McLuhan means is that

[42:07] Cameron McEwen: The early phase of the Tower of Babel,

[42:11] Cameron McEwen: that is to say,

[42:12] Cameron McEwen: the building of the tower,

[42:14] Cameron McEwen: the construction,

[42:16] Cameron McEwen: is an attack on God.

[42:18] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[42:19] Cameron McEwen: And when

[42:20] Cameron McEwen: God looks around and he sees this tower coming up to attack him,

[42:24] Cameron McEwen: he throws it down.

[42:27] Cameron McEwen: And that's the deconstruction side of the Tower of Babel.

[42:31] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[42:31] Cameron McEwen: So

[42:32] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan locates what people...

[42:36] Cameron McEwen: think is utopianism with something that's going to lead to disaster.

[42:42] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[42:43] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[42:43] Bob Dobbs: See,

[42:45] Bob Dobbs: you have to read McLuhan,

[42:47] Bob Dobbs: read his criticism.

[42:48] Bob Dobbs: You have to go through that to experience and learn the difference that you're pointing out.

[42:55] Bob Dobbs: And of course,

[42:56] Bob Dobbs: we found not many people have done that,

[42:57] Bob Dobbs: seriously.

[42:58] Bob Dobbs: They have not read the early articles,

[43:02] Bob Dobbs: the 40s and 50s rigorously.

[43:03] Bob Dobbs: And...

[43:04] Bob Dobbs: So that's made us a little different,

[43:06] Bob Dobbs: and we didn't fall prey to the utopian or the general,

[43:10] Bob Dobbs: I call it the Madison Avenue icon of McLuhan.

[43:13] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[43:13] Bob Dobbs: confused,

[43:17] Bob Dobbs: transient,

[43:18] Bob Dobbs: merging with the zeitgeist of the late

[43:20] Bob Dobbs: 60s, you know,

[43:22] Bob Dobbs: the counterculture and all that.

[43:23] Bob Dobbs: And then,

[43:23] Bob Dobbs: of course,

[43:25] Bob Dobbs: the counterculture failed,

[43:26] Bob Dobbs: so McLuhan failed,

[43:28] Bob Dobbs: because they identified the two,

[43:29] Bob Dobbs: put them together.

[43:31] Bob Dobbs: A lot of people...

[43:33] Bob Dobbs: come out of the counter say baby boomers come out of the counterculture and they flounder around the

[43:38] Bob Dobbs: 70s looking for something that echoes whatever they thought they got out of the counterculture and they might stumble on McLuhan and they project that counterculture thing into McLuhan then they think they're experts and then they write books and there's your uh fated McLuhan industry that you complain about you

[43:57] Cameron McEwen: know yeah frustrated baby boomers they confuse one of his masks.

[44:02] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[44:03] Cameron McEwen: with the guy.

[44:05] Bob Dobbs: Right,

[44:05] Bob Dobbs: and it really shows McLuhan being,

[44:08] Bob Dobbs: because he had a phrase in Pro and Con,

[44:12] Bob Dobbs: that collection of essays on McLuhan in 68,

[44:16] Bob Dobbs: and there's a little introduction in

[44:18] Bob Dobbs: Raymond Rosenthal.

[44:20] Bob Dobbs: He quotes McLuhan speaking maybe at Fordham or offering a course called Millennial Ecstatic.

[44:27] Bob Dobbs: It's the only time I ever saw that phrase.

[44:30] Bob Dobbs: associated with McLuhan,

[44:31] Bob Dobbs: but let's say it's true that that was the name of the article,

[44:35] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[44:36] Bob Dobbs: of his course at Fordham.

[44:39] Bob Dobbs: People think McLuhan was celebrating,

[44:41] Bob Dobbs: like you say,

[44:41] Bob Dobbs: utopian ecstasy or something.

[44:44] Bob Dobbs: He was an anti-environment to that.

[44:46] Bob Dobbs: The only anti-environment of all that,

[44:49] Bob Dobbs: and a very articulate,

[44:50] Bob Dobbs: clear anti-environment.

[44:52] Bob Dobbs: But nobody picks that up to McLuhan.

[44:54] Bob Dobbs: You don't understand how he's an anti-environment until you figure out what we're talking about.

[45:00] Bob Dobbs: And maybe that's a Catholic position,

[45:04] Bob Dobbs: right?

[45:04] Bob Dobbs: It could be a Catholic position.

[45:06] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[45:06] Cameron McEwen: I think so.

[45:07] Cameron McEwen: I think so.

[45:07] Cameron McEwen: But I think McLuhan himself...

[45:08] Cameron McEwen: got screwed up by that.

[45:10] Cameron McEwen: Not that he started thinking like that,

[45:14] Cameron McEwen: but he was charged with the task of trying to communicate with that sort of world misunderstanding.

[45:27] Cameron McEwen: And so he became like a fish caught in a net.

[45:35] Cameron McEwen: And he tried all sorts of masks.

[45:39] Cameron McEwen: all sorts of Postman,

[45:41] Cameron McEwen: all sorts of ways to try to communicate,

[45:45] Cameron McEwen: but I don't think he ever succeeded.

[45:48] Cameron McEwen: And he died without being able to sort of fulfill his mission.

[45:56] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[45:57] Cameron McEwen: Maybe he can fulfill his mission posthumously.

[46:02] Cameron McEwen: That's another whole question.

[46:03] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[46:04] Bob Dobbs: that's what we're trying to do.

[46:06] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[46:06] Cameron McEwen: That is correct.

[46:07] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[46:08] Cameron McEwen: that's asking

[46:09] Cameron McEwen: It's still a baby.

[46:11] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[46:12] Bob Dobbs: So,

[46:13] Bob Dobbs: no,

[46:13] Bob Dobbs: that's a very good statement you made,

[46:15] Bob Dobbs: the frustration of a situation.

[46:17] Bob Dobbs: And that's really like a whole theme going through this in relation to the tech body.

[46:25] Bob Dobbs: I'm pointing out the anti-environment and how do you get autonomy in relationship to it.

[46:33] Cameron McEwen: Tell me this,

[46:34] Cameron McEwen: Bob.

[46:36] Cameron McEwen: anti-environment

[46:38] Cameron McEwen: seems like it's something attached to the earth,

[46:44] Cameron McEwen: you might say.

[46:46] Cameron McEwen: It's something that people breathe.

[46:48] Cameron McEwen: It's something that is so there they don't even notice it.

[46:52] Cameron McEwen: But it's definitely,

[46:56] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[46:57] Cameron McEwen: part of the atmosphere,

[46:58] Cameron McEwen: you might say.

[46:59] Cameron McEwen: And it's hard to figure out how that has anything to do with a seventh heaven or...

[47:09] Cameron McEwen: some kind of apocalyptic merger.

[47:13] Cameron McEwen: It seems like we're talking about two completely different times or two completely different spaces here.

[47:21] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[47:21] Bob Dobbs: well,

[47:22] Bob Dobbs: probably my initial reason to call on

[47:24] Bob Dobbs: Ion since a lot of my friends or acquaintances or audience are familiar with McLuhan because I force them to read him.

[47:34] Bob Dobbs: And if they're going to talk to me and we talk about this

[47:38] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[47:39] Bob Dobbs: when I wasn't here for two years,

[47:41] Bob Dobbs: I ran what I called the new coach house,

[47:43] Bob Dobbs: and I emphasized a lot of McLuhan with whoever was listening.

[47:46] Bob Dobbs: No,

[47:47] Bob Dobbs: I joined those couple of years.

[47:49] Bob Dobbs: But so

[47:52] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan used the anti-environment,

[47:54] Bob Dobbs: and the idea is that new technologies create anti-environment that aren't noticed.

[48:00] Bob Dobbs: I put

[48:01] Bob Dobbs: Ion in McLuhan terms by saying,

[48:03] Bob Dobbs: look at Ion not as a bunch of entities or a channeled something.

[48:08] Bob Dobbs: that you are familiar with if you looked into that world new age culture.

[48:13] Bob Dobbs: This is something different.

[48:14] Bob Dobbs: This is anti-environment that's affecting the frequency of matter.

[48:17] Bob Dobbs: So

[48:18] Bob Dobbs: I call them anti-environment in the McLuhan sense to get people to look at it a bit differently because I thought ION was like a new technology.

[48:27] Bob Dobbs: So now I used to say this.

[48:29] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if I ever said it to you.

[48:31] Bob Dobbs: Our technology extended our chemical body senses.

[48:35] Bob Dobbs: I don't know.

[48:39] Bob Dobbs: In the digital phase,

[48:41] Bob Dobbs: the physical machines,

[48:43] Bob Dobbs: digital machines,

[48:44] Bob Dobbs: started extending themselves.

[48:46] Bob Dobbs: No longer our faculties in the old five sense meaning.

[48:53] Bob Dobbs: In the transition from the five sense extensions to the digital,

[48:57] Bob Dobbs: it goes through the extension of the planet,

[48:59] Bob Dobbs: which was the satellite.

[49:00] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[49:02] Bob Dobbs: Bucky Fuller had this definition that McLuhan used to say,

[49:05] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[49:06] Bob Dobbs: space age was the extension of the planet.

[49:07] Bob Dobbs: Extending the planet,

[49:08] Bob Dobbs: not our faculties.

[49:10] Bob Dobbs: Maybe extending larger nature that we were part of.

[49:13] Bob Dobbs: Then the digital is the machines extending themselves.

[49:17] Bob Dobbs: So I said,

[49:18] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[49:18] Bob Dobbs: we have two phases of physical,

[49:21] Bob Dobbs: physical body extensions,

[49:22] Bob Dobbs: and then the digital body's extensions.

[49:26] Bob Dobbs: What comes after that?

[49:27] Bob Dobbs: The extension of non-physical.

[49:29] Bob Dobbs: And people liked that.

[49:30] Bob Dobbs: It made sense.

[49:31] Bob Dobbs: It was a sequence.

[49:32] Bob Dobbs: It fit their Gutenberg minds that,

[49:35] Bob Dobbs: oh,

[49:36] Bob Dobbs: ion is an extension of non-physical,

[49:38] Bob Dobbs: which is the next thing to be extended.

[49:40] Bob Dobbs: So that was my adaptation of McLuhan to ion and ion to McLuhan,

[49:46] Bob Dobbs: just to have something to point out or to say it differently,

[49:50] Bob Dobbs: have a different effect than any kind of faience,

[49:53] Bob Dobbs: occult kind of meaning that people might think I'm saying ion is.

[49:57] Bob Dobbs: And what was great...

[49:58] Bob Dobbs: was that Ion came up with the tech body idea,

[50:02] Bob Dobbs: which goes into it even more.

[50:03] Bob Dobbs: I didn't come up with tech body,

[50:05] Bob Dobbs: Ion did.

[50:06] Bob Dobbs: And learning what it is,

[50:11] Bob Dobbs: or as Ion says it is,

[50:13] Bob Dobbs: help me explain what I just said to you,

[50:15] Bob Dobbs: how the tech body is an extension of non-physical.

[50:19] Bob Dobbs: So,

[50:21] Bob Dobbs: let's see.

[50:26] Bob Dobbs: Another point,

[50:27] Bob Dobbs: since Ion is...

[50:28] Bob Dobbs: from non-physical.

[50:29] Bob Dobbs: Einstein is very aware of angels and all non-physical phenomena or whatever you call it,

[50:35] Bob Dobbs: Neurotica phenomena or mystical or supernatural.

[50:39] Bob Dobbs: Isn't it interesting,

[50:39] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan at the end of Take Today says something about yestermore,

[50:45] Bob Dobbs: where we're going and we're programming consciousness,

[50:49] Bob Dobbs: though some people will think this is supernatural.

[50:52] Bob Dobbs: He puts that in quotes.

[50:53] Bob Dobbs: Do you remember that sentence?

[50:56] Cameron McEwen: Vaguely,

[50:56] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[50:57] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[50:57] Bob Dobbs: it's important.

[50:58] Bob Dobbs: He says it's natural,

[51:00] Bob Dobbs: but some may think it's supernatural.

[51:02] Bob Dobbs: And he's criticizing those,

[51:05] Bob Dobbs: I think,

[51:05] Bob Dobbs: that would think it was supernatural.

[51:07] Bob Dobbs: That's a Gutenberg rearview mirror idea.

[51:11] Bob Dobbs: Anyways,

[51:11] Bob Dobbs: it's good that McLuhan says that.

[51:14] Bob Dobbs: See,

[51:14] Bob Dobbs: you find that McLuhan erases every word or every general theme in our culture.

[51:20] Bob Dobbs: Do you know what I mean?

[51:21] Bob Dobbs: He puts it in quotes.

[51:23] Bob Dobbs: And he says,

[51:23] Bob Dobbs: no,

[51:23] Bob Dobbs: we're not talking about that.

[51:25] Bob Dobbs: We're not talking about that cliche.

[51:27] Bob Dobbs: Something new is happening.

[51:28] Bob Dobbs: But we're not talking about that archetype.

[51:30] Bob Dobbs: We're talking about a new retrieved archetype,

[51:33] Bob Dobbs: which becomes a new cliché.

[51:35] Bob Dobbs: So that's the importance of the book from Cliché to archetype.

[51:39] Bob Dobbs: And he said,

[51:39] Bob Dobbs: way more important than understanding media,

[51:41] Bob Dobbs: to understand what was going on in that book.

[51:44] Bob Dobbs: Do you agree?

[51:48] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[51:51] Cameron McEwen: it depends on what you mean by going on.

[51:54] Cameron McEwen: I don't think it was a very successful book.

[51:57] Cameron McEwen: But what it could have talked about and should have talked about is very important.

[52:03] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[52:03] Bob Dobbs: and this has not been in the book to see that.

[52:06] Cameron McEwen: Stephen McLuhan said that,

[52:12] Cameron McEwen: I'm trying to remember his exact phrase,

[52:15] Cameron McEwen: but I don't know if I can.

[52:16] Cameron McEwen: But

[52:17] Cameron McEwen: I think it's in a letter.

[52:19] Cameron McEwen: And the letter was written like three or four months after

[52:24] Cameron McEwen: From Cliché to archetype was published.

[52:27] Cameron McEwen: And McLuhan complains that he says something like,

[52:32] Cameron McEwen: the most important stuff in the book I only realized after it had already gone to France.

[52:37] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[52:38] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[52:39] Bob Dobbs: And I think

[52:41] Bob Dobbs: I can't read French,

[52:43] Bob Dobbs: so I don't know what Derek's book said,

[52:46] Bob Dobbs: but I think there was an attempt to put some of the newer stuff in Derek's version.

[52:50] Bob Dobbs: Do you know anything about that?

[52:52] Cameron McEwen: No.

[52:56] Bob Dobbs: Can you read it?

[52:58] Cameron McEwen: Pardon?

[52:59] Bob Dobbs: Can you read French?

[53:01] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[53:02] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[53:02] Bob Dobbs: you might want to read what Derek put out.

[53:07] Cameron McEwen: Nah,

[53:07] Cameron McEwen: sorry.

[53:09] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[53:09] Bob Dobbs: we'll have to wait for someone else.

[53:12] Bob Dobbs: So,

[53:13] Bob Dobbs: let's see.

[53:15] Bob Dobbs: But yeah,

[53:17] Bob Dobbs: I can see McLuhan was bothered by the failure of the book,

[53:22] Bob Dobbs: sort of.

[53:23] Bob Dobbs: And maybe he found Derek was a way to get some new stuff put out.

[53:27] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[53:27] Cameron McEwen: it's possible.

[53:28] Cameron McEwen: It's possible.

[53:30] Cameron McEwen: But,

[53:30] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[53:30] Cameron McEwen: as

[53:31] Cameron McEwen: Wilfred Watson wrote in his reflections about the book,

[53:40] Cameron McEwen: basically their dialogue broke down.

[53:43] Cameron McEwen: And

[53:45] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan kind of ran out of patience with what they were doing and had...

[53:52] Cameron McEwen: Marge Stewart kind of throw the thing out the door and get it published.

[53:57] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[53:57] Bob Dobbs: and Eric did it.

[53:58] Bob Dobbs: Eric cobbled together what was left over.

[54:02] Bob Dobbs: That's what I read somewhere.

[54:03] Bob Dobbs: But

[54:05] Bob Dobbs: I think that

[54:09] Bob Dobbs: Watson, Wilford Watson,

[54:10] Bob Dobbs: was too much the traditional artist and playwright to get the new dynamics of media's art forms.

[54:16] Bob Dobbs: I think he was the problem.

[54:18] Bob Dobbs: He didn't understand McLuhan.

[54:21] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[54:21] Cameron McEwen: certainly McLuhan would say that.

[54:23] Cameron McEwen: But

[54:25] Cameron McEwen: I think that

[54:27] Cameron McEwen: Watson tried to get

[54:30] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan to sort of think about what he was saying and reflect on what they were doing.

[54:39] Cameron McEwen: And

[54:40] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan didn't want to do it.

[54:42] Cameron McEwen: Maybe he didn't have the health.

[54:45] Cameron McEwen: He was not a well man at that time.

[54:49] Cameron McEwen: severe heart attack the next year,

[54:53] Cameron McEwen: the same year the book came out,

[54:55] Cameron McEwen: actually,

[54:56] Cameron McEwen: and was in the hospital for a long time.

[55:00] Cameron McEwen: So

[55:03] Cameron McEwen: I think there may have been fault on both sides there.

[55:07] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[55:07] Bob Dobbs: and I've read some article which quotes

[55:12] Bob Dobbs: Watson diary or whatever he wrote about it,

[55:15] Bob Dobbs: and

[55:16] Bob Dobbs: I see that he didn't get McLuhan.

[55:20] Bob Dobbs: He's too much the egotistical artist,

[55:23] Bob Dobbs: a Gutenberg man,

[55:24] Bob Dobbs: and he was trying to make new art.

[55:29] Bob Dobbs: It didn't work.

[55:30] Bob Dobbs: But yeah,

[55:31] Bob Dobbs: it's certainly true that McLuhan was irritable after his brain surgery and other problems that happened to him.

[55:38] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[55:39] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[55:40] Bob Dobbs: from 70 to 79,

[55:43] Bob Dobbs: he's in ailment conditions a lot with different problems.

[55:48] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[55:48] Bob Dobbs: But,

[55:49] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[55:50] Bob Dobbs: when I was with him when he was healthy,

[55:53] Bob Dobbs: he seemed quite energized,

[55:55] Bob Dobbs: you know?

[55:56] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[55:56] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[55:58] Cameron McEwen: Some of the television interviews from the

[56:01] Cameron McEwen: 70s show a guy who's got a lot of energy.

[56:04] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[56:04] Cameron McEwen: It's quite surprising.

[56:06] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[56:07] Cameron McEwen: The irritable,

[56:10] Cameron McEwen: tired,

[56:10] Cameron McEwen: sick guy comes out more in some of the letters from the

[56:17] Cameron McEwen: 70s.

[56:18] Bob Dobbs: And some of the,

[56:19] Bob Dobbs: like him in 1960 when he's doing

[56:23] Bob Dobbs: Lolita for CBC,

[56:25] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[56:25] Bob Dobbs: the transcript is in Project 69.

[56:29] Bob Dobbs: He looks very bad in those,

[56:32] Bob Dobbs: big fat face and all that.

[56:33] Bob Dobbs: And that's right when he was really sick,

[56:37] Bob Dobbs: just coming out of being sick or going to be sicker,

[56:40] Bob Dobbs: when that was taped in May,

[56:41] Bob Dobbs: I think,

[56:42] Bob Dobbs: May 1960.

[56:44] Bob Dobbs: And then you see...

[56:46] Bob Dobbs: He's older looking.

[56:47] Bob Dobbs: Maybe it's black and white TV in 64,

[56:51] Bob Dobbs: 65.

[56:51] Bob Dobbs: He doesn't really look that good in the late 60s.

[56:54] Bob Dobbs: He has a stupid fake wig on and a couple of them.

[56:57] Bob Dobbs: But when he does the Tom Wolfe interview in 73,

[57:01] Bob Dobbs: he's really handsome.

[57:03] Bob Dobbs: He's got his Hawaiian shirt on,

[57:05] Bob Dobbs: and he looks way better than he did in the 60s.

[57:09] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[57:10] Cameron McEwen: he looks like somebody who's escaped from the circus.

[57:15] Bob Dobbs: You mean he doesn't look good,

[57:17] Bob Dobbs: you're saying?

[57:18] Cameron McEwen: No,

[57:18] Cameron McEwen: his clothes.

[57:19] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[57:20] Bob Dobbs: but he has a good healthy face.

[57:22] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[57:23] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[57:24] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[57:24] Cameron McEwen: you're right that in the

[57:27] Cameron McEwen: 60s, that was the time when he was having blackouts and mini strokes.

[57:33] Cameron McEwen: And

[57:35] Cameron McEwen: Corinne said that he began having the problems with his brain in

[57:42] Cameron McEwen: 1959. Yeah.

[57:44] Cameron McEwen: So...

[57:45] Cameron McEwen: And he was all during,

[57:47] Cameron McEwen: from 59 until his operation in 67,

[57:52] Cameron McEwen: he was having a lot of blackouts,

[57:56] Cameron McEwen: a lot of headaches,

[57:58] Cameron McEwen: a lot of sort of losing track of things.

[58:02] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[58:04] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[58:06] Bob Dobbs: So

[58:07] Bob Dobbs: I've explained how,

[58:11] Bob Dobbs: so

[58:13] Bob Dobbs: I could talk.

[58:13] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[58:13] Cameron McEwen: you've explained.

[58:14] Cameron McEwen: Explain where tech body came from,

[58:16] Cameron McEwen: how it arose.

[58:21] Bob Dobbs: Go ahead.

[58:23] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[58:24] Cameron McEwen: I think,

[58:24] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[58:25] Cameron McEwen: we got maybe an hour left.

[58:27] Cameron McEwen: Let's get into the appendix.

[58:30] Bob Dobbs: All right,

[58:30] Bob Dobbs: the interview.

[58:33] Bob Dobbs: So,

[58:34] Bob Dobbs: oh,

[58:34] Bob Dobbs: I didn't finish this.

[58:37] Bob Dobbs: So the tech body,

[58:39] Bob Dobbs: because of the nonphysical coming closer to the physical,

[58:44] Bob Dobbs: and interacting with us more.

[58:45] Bob Dobbs: Aion says that dead people,

[58:49] Bob Dobbs: since the guff,

[58:50] Bob Dobbs: which is where you went when you died,

[58:52] Bob Dobbs: isn't there anymore,

[58:55] Bob Dobbs: because

[58:56] Bob Dobbs: Aion as guff is no longer the guff.

[58:59] Bob Dobbs: Where we go when we die is different,

[59:02] Bob Dobbs: and a lot of the ghosts or entities,

[59:05] Bob Dobbs: whatever you are,

[59:06] Bob Dobbs: have to...

[59:06] Bob Dobbs: Passover,

[59:08] Bob Dobbs: are coming back into this world.

[59:10] Bob Dobbs: So we're going to get a lot of strange phenomena,

[59:12] Bob Dobbs: Ayan says.

[59:13] Bob Dobbs: And so Ayan did an in-depth Explorations of the

[59:16] Bob Dobbs: Egyptian Book of the Dead in a way no one would have ever heard of before.

[59:21] Bob Dobbs: It was pretty incredible how

[59:23] Bob Dobbs: Ayan explained the text line by line.

[59:27] Bob Dobbs: So

[59:28] Bob Dobbs: I've got that in my mind,

[59:30] Bob Dobbs: and it was good preparation for the tech body is dealing with angels.

[59:35] Bob Dobbs: and ghosts and all these things,

[59:37] Bob Dobbs: as well as us,

[59:38] Bob Dobbs: and as well as the cyber fusion,

[59:42] Bob Dobbs: the Königsbergian matrix reality that everybody's worried about that's coming.

[59:49] Bob Dobbs: TechBody's within that too.

[59:52] Bob Dobbs: So with that in mind,

[59:53] Bob Dobbs: I start off appropriately because it's my first talk with the TechBody.

[59:59] Bob Dobbs: I go,

[59:59] Bob Dobbs: what are you?

[1:00:01] Bob Dobbs: And

[1:00:03] Bob Dobbs: TechBody,

[1:00:04] Bob Dobbs: Without me prompting them,

[1:00:07] Bob Dobbs: telling them we're going to do McLuhan,

[1:00:09] Bob Dobbs: I don't think I did.

[1:00:10] Bob Dobbs: I just wanted to start talking to them and I was going to direct it to McLuhan.

[1:00:14] Bob Dobbs: But Ion always knows what's in your mind and will anticipate what you're going to say.

[1:00:18] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:00:19] Bob Dobbs: I go,

[1:00:20] Bob Dobbs: what are you?

[1:00:21] Bob Dobbs: And the tech body says,

[1:00:23] Bob Dobbs: Herbert Marshall McLuhan,

[1:00:24] Bob Dobbs: or better said,

[1:00:26] Bob Dobbs: Marge Stewart.

[1:00:27] Bob Dobbs: Now there's a whole thesis of

[1:00:29] Bob Dobbs: Ion that Marge Stewart is the brains of McLuhan.

[1:00:34] Bob Dobbs: Because she typed up the dictation that Marshall gave,

[1:00:40] Bob Dobbs: she's the one who had to correct it.

[1:00:42] Bob Dobbs: She's the one who had to understand what was being said to write the letters properly.

[1:00:51] Bob Dobbs: She had to understand what McLuhan meant.

[1:00:53] Bob Dobbs: So she was a bit more rigorous in actually understanding McLuhan.

[1:00:58] Bob Dobbs: So it's the

[1:01:00] Bob Dobbs: Ion's thesis that Marge Stewart is...

[1:01:03] Bob Dobbs: really more important than Marshall McLuhan.

[1:01:06] Bob Dobbs: And so if you bring up McLuhan,

[1:01:09] Bob Dobbs: you have to,

[1:01:10] Bob Dobbs: with Ion,

[1:01:11] Bob Dobbs: he'll say,

[1:01:11] Bob Dobbs: no,

[1:01:11] Bob Dobbs: no,

[1:01:12] Bob Dobbs: you mean Marge Stewart.

[1:01:13] Bob Dobbs: So I don't know how serious Ion is about that,

[1:01:16] Bob Dobbs: but he talks seriously,

[1:01:18] Bob Dobbs: but it's a joke in my sense.

[1:01:20] Bob Dobbs: But I knew Marge Stewart,

[1:01:21] Bob Dobbs: so it's a personal joke.

[1:01:23] Bob Dobbs: But the thing is,

[1:01:26] Bob Dobbs: what else?

[1:01:27] Cameron McEwen: She began when?

[1:01:31] Cameron McEwen: 63.

[1:01:33] Cameron McEwen: Sorry?

[1:01:34] Bob Dobbs: 63.

[1:01:35] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:01:36] Cameron McEwen: I was just going to say,

[1:01:36] Cameron McEwen: in the early 60s.

[1:01:37] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:01:37] Cameron McEwen: So all of the important water had already passed underneath the bridge.

[1:01:43] Cameron McEwen: The person that did the typing and the understanding was Corinne.

[1:01:49] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[1:01:52] Cameron McEwen: She was the one that was typing for McLuhan,

[1:02:00] Cameron McEwen: looking after the kids,

[1:02:02] Cameron McEwen: preparing the food.

[1:02:03] Cameron McEwen: cleaning the house.

[1:02:06] Cameron McEwen: She is the hidden master behind

[1:02:10] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan up until 63.

[1:02:14] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:02:14] Bob Dobbs: and Ion agrees with that.

[1:02:16] Bob Dobbs: Ion agrees with that.

[1:02:17] Bob Dobbs: He praises Corinne.

[1:02:18] Bob Dobbs: And,

[1:02:19] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:02:19] Bob Dobbs: when we did the centenary and would talk to McLuhan through Ion,

[1:02:24] Bob Dobbs: Ion brought forth Corinne,

[1:02:25] Bob Dobbs: and Corinne got to say a lot.

[1:02:28] Bob Dobbs: No one ever talked about,

[1:02:29] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:02:29] Bob Dobbs: interacting with Corinne.

[1:02:31] Bob Dobbs: But Ian made sure we interacted with Corinne because that was before he was talking about Marge Stewart,

[1:02:37] Bob Dobbs: which was more the last couple of years.

[1:02:39] Bob Dobbs: But in 2011,

[1:02:40] Bob Dobbs: it was Corinne.

[1:02:41] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:02:41] Bob Dobbs: no,

[1:02:42] Bob Dobbs: Ian agrees with you how important she was.

[1:02:45] Bob Dobbs: I think I once asked go ahead.

[1:02:49] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:02:50] Cameron McEwen: I think what you were going to say is you should go ahead,

[1:02:57] Cameron McEwen: and then I'll go back.

[1:02:58] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:02:59] Bob Dobbs: way back in the early days.

[1:03:01] Bob Dobbs: I think I said,

[1:03:02] Bob Dobbs: who's someone who would like to talk about McLuhan that I'm ignoring,

[1:03:05] Bob Dobbs: or I should look or read or something?

[1:03:09] Bob Dobbs: And I said,

[1:03:09] Bob Dobbs: Corinne.

[1:03:11] Bob Dobbs: I said it very fast.

[1:03:12] Bob Dobbs: It's Corinne McLuhan.

[1:03:13] Bob Dobbs: Look into what she did,

[1:03:14] Bob Dobbs: because she was very important.

[1:03:17] Bob Dobbs: Absolutely.

[1:03:18] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:03:18] Bob Dobbs: Absolutely.

[1:03:19] Bob Dobbs: So that's what I like about Ayan.

[1:03:20] Bob Dobbs: Ayan knows.

[1:03:21] Bob Dobbs: I didn't tell Ayan that.

[1:03:22] Bob Dobbs: Ayan said it of their own volition,

[1:03:24] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:03:25] Bob Dobbs: their own knowing.

[1:03:26] Bob Dobbs: So that's why there's something not so...

[1:03:29] Bob Dobbs: false or wrong about Ion.

[1:03:32] Bob Dobbs: It knows its stuff.

[1:03:34] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:03:34] Bob Dobbs: Ion would say it gets it by reading my mind.

[1:03:38] Bob Dobbs: If it talked to you,

[1:03:40] Bob Dobbs: he would be reading your mind and playing off what he knows you know.

[1:03:45] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:03:46] Bob Dobbs: I knew Corinne's importance,

[1:03:48] Bob Dobbs: so maybe Ion got it for me.

[1:03:50] Bob Dobbs: But I'm not going to quibble at everything that Ion says.

[1:03:53] Bob Dobbs: Did you get that for me,

[1:03:54] Bob Dobbs: or is that original to you?

[1:03:57] Bob Dobbs: I just let it ride and accept Ion.

[1:03:59] Bob Dobbs: knows enough to be valid,

[1:04:01] Bob Dobbs: you know?

[1:04:04] Bob Dobbs: And I always say,

[1:04:05] Bob Dobbs: and this is all talk,

[1:04:07] Bob Dobbs: but we make things with ion,

[1:04:09] Bob Dobbs: things that work.

[1:04:10] Bob Dobbs: And that's another part of,

[1:04:12] Bob Dobbs: if you're listening for the first time to us right now and hearing me talk about this nebulous ion,

[1:04:16] Bob Dobbs: we make technologies,

[1:04:18] Bob Dobbs: bona fide,

[1:04:20] Bob Dobbs: great things with ion.

[1:04:21] Bob Dobbs: And we have them and then we're selling them and new stuff's going to be presented to the world.

[1:04:27] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:04:27] Bob Dobbs: so that's a little sidebar about that.

[1:04:29] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:04:30] Cameron McEwen: so what I want to do is I want to go...

[1:04:33] Cameron McEwen: You said you started off with,

[1:04:35] Cameron McEwen: what are you?

[1:04:36] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:04:36] Cameron McEwen: But actually,

[1:04:37] Cameron McEwen: actually,

[1:04:38] Cameron McEwen: the first word is anybody.

[1:04:41] Cameron McEwen: And that itself is questionable.

[1:04:48] Cameron McEwen: So you seem to equate anybody with you.

[1:04:53] Bob Dobbs: Yep.

[1:04:54] Cameron McEwen: But

[1:04:55] Cameron McEwen: I would think anybody is more like...

[1:05:02] Cameron McEwen: the,

[1:05:04] Cameron McEwen: how could you say,

[1:05:05] Cameron McEwen: the five-body connection.

[1:05:09] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:05:09] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[1:05:11] Cameron McEwen: Any hyphen body.

[1:05:13] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:05:13] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[1:05:14] Cameron McEwen: And so then the any hyphen body is going to try to understand something other than it.

[1:05:27] Bob Dobbs: Other than it.

[1:05:29] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:05:31] Bob Dobbs: so for some reason I didn't want to put my name there.

[1:05:34] Bob Dobbs: So I was thinking it that way.

[1:05:36] Bob Dobbs: But your part fits too.

[1:05:39] Bob Dobbs: So that's good.

[1:05:41] Bob Dobbs: Anybody goes,

[1:05:42] Bob Dobbs: what are you?

[1:05:42] Bob Dobbs: Because the tech body is something different from the five bodies.

[1:05:45] Bob Dobbs: So anybody would ask,

[1:05:48] Bob Dobbs: what are you?

[1:05:49] Bob Dobbs: So the tech body says,

[1:05:50] Bob Dobbs: Herbert Marshall McLuhan,

[1:05:51] Bob Dobbs: or better said,

[1:05:52] Bob Dobbs: Marge Stewart,

[1:05:53] Bob Dobbs: had this high-minded ideal that the human condition did not understand,

[1:05:58] Bob Dobbs: quote,

[1:05:58] Bob Dobbs: the condition their condition was in.

[1:06:01] Bob Dobbs: Therefore,

[1:06:02] Bob Dobbs: they had to lend or open a door,

[1:06:04] Bob Dobbs: a window,

[1:06:05] Bob Dobbs: that gave the opportunity,

[1:06:06] Bob Dobbs: just as in Annie Hall,

[1:06:08] Bob Dobbs: to say,

[1:06:08] Bob Dobbs: quote,

[1:06:09] Bob Dobbs: you don't know where you live.

[1:06:10] Bob Dobbs: You don't know who you are.

[1:06:11] Bob Dobbs: You don't know what is reading you.

[1:06:13] Bob Dobbs: You have no idea what you stepped into.

[1:06:16] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:06:16] Cameron McEwen: let's stop there for a minute.

[1:06:21] Cameron McEwen: You don't know where you live.

[1:06:23] Cameron McEwen: You don't know who you are.

[1:06:26] Cameron McEwen: It brings up what I would call...

[1:06:31] Cameron McEwen: Nietzsche nihilism.

[1:06:32] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:06:33] Cameron McEwen: And this will be a repeated theme in the interview here,

[1:06:39] Cameron McEwen: where ideas are brought up that

[1:06:43] Cameron McEwen: Nietzsche specified in the

[1:06:48] Cameron McEwen: 1870s and the 1880s.

[1:06:52] Cameron McEwen: And we now,

[1:06:55] Cameron McEwen: almost a century and a half later,

[1:06:58] Cameron McEwen: are

[1:07:01] Cameron McEwen: beginning to recognize,

[1:07:02] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:07:03] Cameron McEwen: He recognized them clearly then.

[1:07:06] Cameron McEwen: But now,

[1:07:07] Cameron McEwen: only now are we really beginning to understand what the hell he was talking about.

[1:07:14] Cameron McEwen: So

[1:07:16] Cameron McEwen: I just want to emphasize that we can see nihilism in those imperatives.

[1:07:27] Cameron McEwen: You don't know where you live.

[1:07:28] Cameron McEwen: You don't know who you are.

[1:07:30] Cameron McEwen: And then the next thing,

[1:07:32] Cameron McEwen: you don't know what is reading you,

[1:07:34] Cameron McEwen: introduces a kind of curveball into that.

[1:07:41] Cameron McEwen: In the sense that you first say you don't know,

[1:07:45] Cameron McEwen: you don't know.

[1:07:46] Cameron McEwen: And then the third you don't know is not a declaration.

[1:07:55] Cameron McEwen: It's a curveball.

[1:07:57] Cameron McEwen: It's a mirror.

[1:08:00] Cameron McEwen: because it turns out that the Explorations are actually some kind of script.

[1:08:10] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:08:11] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[1:08:12] Cameron McEwen: What he's reading here.

[1:08:13] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:08:13] Bob Dobbs: Right?

[1:08:14] Cameron McEwen: So right there,

[1:08:18] Cameron McEwen: there's a transition.

[1:08:21] Cameron McEwen: That's not the right word.

[1:08:23] Cameron McEwen: There's the introduction of the nihilism theme.

[1:08:28] Cameron McEwen: And then a possible way to deal with it.

[1:08:34] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:08:35] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[1:08:36] Cameron McEwen: The nihilism theme is a kind of gas that envelops the world,

[1:08:46] Cameron McEwen: and it seems like there's no way out.

[1:08:51] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:08:51] Cameron McEwen: And so you can say trying to deal with nihilism is like an octopus trying to...

[1:08:58] Cameron McEwen: deal with the,

[1:09:02] Cameron McEwen: which pyramid is it?

[1:09:05] Cameron McEwen: Giza pyramid.

[1:09:11] Cameron McEwen: The Great Pyramid or Empire State Building?

[1:09:13] Cameron McEwen: Any of those will do.

[1:09:14] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:09:14] Cameron McEwen: Any of those will do.

[1:09:17] Cameron McEwen: But then the idea that you don't know is already a script.

[1:09:26] Cameron McEwen: That indicates that there's at least one and probably more than one exits.

[1:09:37] Cameron McEwen: from this gas,

[1:09:38] Cameron McEwen: from this fly bottle that the fly is in.

[1:09:41] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:09:42] Cameron McEwen: And so that's an interesting transition there.

[1:09:46] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:09:46] Bob Dobbs: and I see you don't know what is reading you.

[1:09:48] Bob Dobbs: The tech body is reading us,

[1:09:50] Bob Dobbs: as you'll see when you hear Ian talk about the tech body.

[1:09:53] Bob Dobbs: And so he is saying you don't know the present,

[1:09:56] Bob Dobbs: which is reading you.

[1:09:59] Bob Dobbs: You have no idea anti-environment you stepped into.

[1:10:03] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[1:10:03] Bob Dobbs: So that's very accurate.

[1:10:07] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:10:07] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[1:10:08] Cameron McEwen: that's a good shift.

[1:10:08] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[1:10:08] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.

[1:10:10] Cameron McEwen: But it's also a great shift in freedom and in self-consciousness.

[1:10:15] Cameron McEwen: Because if you're in a gas and you just don't know,

[1:10:19] Cameron McEwen: that's one thing.

[1:10:20] Cameron McEwen: But if you know that this is a script and that it's a theater,

[1:10:33] Cameron McEwen: then...

[1:10:34] Cameron McEwen: That gives you a whole new way to think about what's going on and a way of possibly getting yourself out of this net.

[1:10:44] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:10:44] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:10:47] Bob Dobbs: that's what I like about ION.

[1:10:49] Bob Dobbs: I could expect a simple answer,

[1:10:52] Bob Dobbs: but these first 10 lines are so loaded,

[1:10:56] Bob Dobbs: and I'm realizing as I'm hearing,

[1:10:58] Bob Dobbs: wow,

[1:10:58] Bob Dobbs: this is neat.

[1:11:00] Bob Dobbs: So then

[1:11:00] Bob Dobbs: I get excited and keep probing something that's worth.

[1:11:04] Bob Dobbs: talking to because they're so sophisticated,

[1:11:07] Bob Dobbs: so nuanced,

[1:11:09] Bob Dobbs: so accurate.

[1:11:11] Bob Dobbs: So then after that,

[1:11:12] Bob Dobbs: we don't know these things.

[1:11:14] Bob Dobbs: And that's like history that you're doomed to repeat if you don't give attention to the very thing that has caused or created the antithesis of human-minded five-body living,

[1:11:24] Bob Dobbs: which is thoroughly laid out and set,

[1:11:26] Bob Dobbs: that this is the,

[1:11:27] Bob Dobbs: should be maybe this,

[1:11:29] Bob Dobbs: these are the conditions from which you live your life.

[1:11:33] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:11:33] Bob Dobbs: that is a very good description of McLuhan and what he was about.

[1:11:38] Bob Dobbs: What do you think?

[1:11:40] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[1:11:40] Cameron McEwen: I do,

[1:11:41] Cameron McEwen: but I think we have to go slowly over a couple things here.

[1:11:48] Cameron McEwen: Excuse me.

[1:11:49] Cameron McEwen: When you say the antithesis of human-minded,

[1:11:53] Cameron McEwen: that's a very interesting phrase,

[1:11:58] Cameron McEwen: and it asks if...

[1:12:03] Cameron McEwen: Humans can look at human-mindedness in a way that kind of produces distance,

[1:12:14] Cameron McEwen: and it poses a very difficult problem.

[1:12:17] Cameron McEwen: It's one thing to say that you can see an antithesis to being human-minded,

[1:12:26] Cameron McEwen: and then you say,

[1:12:26] Cameron McEwen: well,

[1:12:28] Cameron McEwen: isn't seeing an antithesis an example?

[1:12:33] Cameron McEwen: of human mindedness.

[1:12:35] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[1:12:35] Cameron McEwen: So there's a not

[1:12:38] Cameron McEwen: K-N-O-T here,

[1:12:40] Cameron McEwen: a vicious circle that poses a problem.

[1:12:46] Cameron McEwen: And then you say five bodied living,

[1:12:50] Cameron McEwen: which is thoroughly laid out and set.

[1:12:55] Cameron McEwen: That seems to indicate the very problem being discussed,

[1:13:01] Cameron McEwen: that the.

[1:13:03] Cameron McEwen: Five-bodied,

[1:13:05] Cameron McEwen: in a certain sense,

[1:13:06] Cameron McEwen: is a definition of being human-minded.

[1:13:12] Cameron McEwen: Being five-bodied is being minded in multiple senses,

[1:13:18] Cameron McEwen: and those multiple senses of being minded is what it means to be human.

[1:13:24] Cameron McEwen: And so if those are thoroughly,

[1:13:28] Cameron McEwen: as you say,

[1:13:29] Cameron McEwen: laid out and set,

[1:13:32] Cameron McEwen: then there's a great problem in trying to extricate yourself from them.

[1:13:39] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:13:40] Bob Dobbs: I want to say that the phrase human-minded five-body living is exactly the meaning of the Tiny Note chart because in the Dobbs quadrant,

[1:13:52] Bob Dobbs: which is the ground,

[1:13:53] Bob Dobbs: it's Anthropomorphic Physical.

[1:13:55] Bob Dobbs: It's human-minded projection on the other four quadrants or four anti-environment.

[1:14:01] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[1:14:01] Bob Dobbs: he had never said that before,

[1:14:02] Bob Dobbs: but that's a perfect summation of how I understand what I meant by putting an answer more physical.

[1:14:08] Bob Dobbs: It's a human-minded,

[1:14:09] Bob Dobbs: five-bodied projection that the chart is.

[1:14:14] Cameron McEwen: And when you say,

[1:14:17] Cameron McEwen: explain something about your use of the word projection there.

[1:14:23] Bob Dobbs: It's a projection,

[1:14:24] Bob Dobbs: a creation that I made,

[1:14:27] Bob Dobbs: an attempt to show a portrait of the Android Meme,

[1:14:32] Bob Dobbs: which was made up of the five bodies.

[1:14:35] Bob Dobbs: But

[1:14:35] Bob Dobbs: I acknowledge it's coming from my human bias.

[1:14:39] Cameron McEwen: Okay.

[1:14:40] Cameron McEwen: But...

[1:14:42] Cameron McEwen: I guess the most important question is the question of whether the projection is tied to you or

[1:14:57] Cameron McEwen: if it attains liftoff.

[1:15:04] Cameron McEwen: A projection can be something that's more or less on a string,

[1:15:11] Cameron McEwen: or it can be on a string.

[1:15:11] Cameron McEwen: can break the string and keep on going on its own.

[1:15:15] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:15:16] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:15:17] Bob Dobbs: I had two uses of projection by McLuhan in mind.

[1:15:20] Bob Dobbs: When he met with John Lennon,

[1:15:22] Bob Dobbs: he said,

[1:15:24] Bob Dobbs: you're trying to project a mood and define it.

[1:15:28] Bob Dobbs: So two phases.

[1:15:29] Bob Dobbs: Project a mood,

[1:15:30] Bob Dobbs: sing a song,

[1:15:31] Bob Dobbs: and then he had to figure out what the hell it meant as the success took over or the high sales.

[1:15:37] Bob Dobbs: And so he tried to explain it.

[1:15:39] Bob Dobbs: So that's one interesting use of the word project there.

[1:15:43] Bob Dobbs: And then he talks to June Callwood in November 74,

[1:15:46] Bob Dobbs: where she does this private intimate interview.

[1:15:49] Bob Dobbs: And he says,

[1:15:50] Bob Dobbs: I have trouble projecting to people,

[1:15:52] Bob Dobbs: and they have trouble projecting to me.

[1:15:55] Bob Dobbs: So what do those project projecting words mean?

[1:16:00] Bob Dobbs: I just sort of pretended I knew what they meant.

[1:16:04] Bob Dobbs: Isn't it a clinical term in psychology or psychiatry?

[1:16:08] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[1:16:10] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:16:10] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:16:11] Bob Dobbs: definitely.

[1:16:11] Bob Dobbs: And I'm not trained that way,

[1:16:12] Bob Dobbs: so I don't know what they mean.

[1:16:15] Bob Dobbs: So I was just using it in a casual conversation style the way McLuhan did it.

[1:16:23] Cameron McEwen: But for the purposes of understanding Android Meme,

[1:16:28] Cameron McEwen: let's say,

[1:16:29] Cameron McEwen: Android Meme is a projection of human memes,

[1:16:34] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:16:35] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:16:36] Cameron McEwen: And so there...

[1:16:38] Cameron McEwen: The big question is,

[1:16:39] Cameron McEwen: as a projection,

[1:16:41] Cameron McEwen: is it still in some way tied to humans because that's the origin of it and it has the same limitations as humans?

[1:16:53] Cameron McEwen: Or does it attain,

[1:16:56] Cameron McEwen: I think,

[1:16:57] Cameron McEwen: what is called escape velocity?

[1:17:00] Cameron McEwen: Does it take on not only a life of its own,

[1:17:05] Cameron McEwen: but a kind of...

[1:17:09] Bob Dobbs: autonomy.

[1:17:11] Cameron McEwen: Autonomy,

[1:17:12] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[1:17:12] Cameron McEwen: That's exactly what I was looking for.

[1:17:15] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:17:15] Bob Dobbs: and that's what I mean.

[1:17:16] Bob Dobbs: The digital phase is the machines extending themselves.

[1:17:20] Bob Dobbs: They're not involved with humans anymore.

[1:17:21] Bob Dobbs: That's the Android Meme phase.

[1:17:23] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:17:24] Bob Dobbs: yes,

[1:17:24] Bob Dobbs: it's taken off.

[1:17:25] Bob Dobbs: It's projected like a projectile,

[1:17:29] Bob Dobbs: like a stone by David into Goliath's head or whatever he hit of Goliath.

[1:17:35] Bob Dobbs: It's a projectile,

[1:17:35] Bob Dobbs: a weapon.

[1:17:37] Bob Dobbs: Yep,

[1:17:37] Bob Dobbs: that's...

[1:17:38] Bob Dobbs: That's in there,

[1:17:38] Bob Dobbs: too.

[1:17:40] Cameron McEwen: Okay.

[1:17:41] Cameron McEwen: And so later,

[1:17:43] Cameron McEwen: just to anticipate a bit,

[1:17:45] Cameron McEwen: on 181,

[1:17:50] Cameron McEwen: which is 183 of the

[1:17:52] Cameron McEwen: PDF, you say that the tech body has enough power to capture the Android Meme.

[1:18:02] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:18:04] Cameron McEwen: And so the...

[1:18:07] Cameron McEwen: The Android Meme has autonomy and is controlling in ways that humans either don't at all understand or

[1:18:23] Cameron McEwen: can,

[1:18:24] Cameron McEwen: with effort,

[1:18:26] Cameron McEwen: understand.

[1:18:27] Bob Dobbs: Which the Matrix movie tried to show.

[1:18:30] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[1:18:31] Bob Dobbs: the conventional sci-fi awareness that younger people have.

[1:18:36] Bob Dobbs: and literate or informed baby boomers,

[1:18:39] Bob Dobbs: generation Xers.

[1:18:40] Bob Dobbs: Is that meaning?

[1:18:43] Bob Dobbs: Is that understanding of the Android Meme?

[1:18:46] Bob Dobbs: And the tech body goes further,

[1:18:48] Bob Dobbs: and that's really hard to explain,

[1:18:50] Bob Dobbs: but yes,

[1:18:50] Bob Dobbs: the tech body goes further than the average understanding of the matrix we live in.

[1:18:57] Cameron McEwen: All right.

[1:18:57] Cameron McEwen: So maybe as we go along,

[1:18:59] Cameron McEwen: maybe we'll understand more about that.

[1:19:02] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:19:02] Cameron McEwen: So let's go back to...

[1:19:04] Cameron McEwen: Where it was.

[1:19:05] Cameron McEwen: where we were in the first page.

[1:19:08] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:19:08] Bob Dobbs: so we'll continue reading through.

[1:19:10] Bob Dobbs: It seems to be the best way to do this.

[1:19:14] Bob Dobbs: So now the next sentence,

[1:19:19] Bob Dobbs: Kitty Carlisle.

[1:19:20] Bob Dobbs: Ian is always talking about Kitty Carlisle,

[1:19:22] Bob Dobbs: who used to be on that show in the 60s with Soupy Sales called What's My Line.

[1:19:28] Bob Dobbs: Did you ever see that?

[1:19:29] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[1:19:30] Cameron McEwen: definitely.

[1:19:31] Cameron McEwen: But I don't think Soupy Sales was on that.

[1:19:33] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:19:35] Bob Dobbs: He was in a similar kind of program.

[1:19:37] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:19:37] Cameron McEwen: later.

[1:19:39] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:19:39] Cameron McEwen: in the 60s.

[1:19:41] Cameron McEwen: he was.

[1:19:42] Cameron McEwen: But yeah,

[1:19:43] Cameron McEwen: Kitty Carlisle,

[1:19:45] Cameron McEwen: I forget the people that were on that.

[1:19:49] Cameron McEwen: Wasn't Groucho Marx the moderator at some point?

[1:19:54] Bob Dobbs: He was the moderator of something.

[1:19:56] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:19:56] Bob Dobbs: I've seen those videos.

[1:20:01] Bob Dobbs: I'm just going to put in what's my line,

[1:20:04] Bob Dobbs: get the wiki on who were the people.

[1:20:08] Cameron McEwen: They were all print

[1:20:10] Cameron McEwen: people.

[1:20:11] Cameron McEwen: So Kitty Carlisle had a column,

[1:20:14] Cameron McEwen: and then there were other people that had their column.

[1:20:17] Bob Dobbs: Boy,

[1:20:17] Bob Dobbs: it really covered a stretch.

[1:20:19] Bob Dobbs: 1950 to 67.

[1:20:22] Bob Dobbs: Boy,

[1:20:22] Bob Dobbs: that's a long world.

[1:20:26] Bob Dobbs: The game uses celebrity panelists to question contestants in order to determine their occupation,

[1:20:30] Bob Dobbs: Rhyee.

[1:20:30] Bob Dobbs: line of work.

[1:20:32] Bob Dobbs: Originally hosted by John Charles Daly,

[1:20:35] Bob Dobbs: I don't know who that is,

[1:20:36] Bob Dobbs: and with regular panelist Dorothy Kilgallen,

[1:20:39] Bob Dobbs: she was...

[1:20:39] Bob Dobbs: killed investigating Jack Ruby and the Kennedy assassination.

[1:20:45] Bob Dobbs: Arlene Francis,

[1:20:46] Bob Dobbs: I heard of her.

[1:20:47] Bob Dobbs: She was an actress.

[1:20:48] Bob Dobbs: And Bennett Cerf,

[1:20:50] Bob Dobbs: he's the guy who published

[1:20:51] Bob Dobbs: Fitting Its Wake.

[1:20:53] Bob Dobbs: And some author of that era went into

[1:20:59] Bob Dobbs: Cerf's office,

[1:21:01] Bob Dobbs: I guess it would be 1939,

[1:21:03] Bob Dobbs: 1940,

[1:21:05] Bob Dobbs: and he saw this big mound of paper.

[1:21:09] Bob Dobbs: And

[1:21:10] Bob Dobbs: Cerf says,

[1:21:10] Bob Dobbs: what am I supposed to do with this?

[1:21:15] Bob Dobbs: The guy who published it didn't know what the hell he was publishing.

[1:21:18] Bob Dobbs: It's a great story.

[1:21:20] Bob Dobbs: And

[1:21:21] Bob Dobbs: What's My Line won three Emmy Awards,

[1:21:23] Bob Dobbs: 52,

[1:21:23] Bob Dobbs: 53,

[1:21:24] Bob Dobbs: and 58,

[1:21:25] Bob Dobbs: and the Golden Globe Awards in 62.

[1:21:28] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:21:29] Bob Dobbs: Arlene Francis,

[1:21:31] Bob Dobbs: an actress.

[1:21:32] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:21:32] Bob Dobbs: so they were well-known people of their day.

[1:21:36] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:21:36] Bob Dobbs: And it doesn't list.

[1:21:40] Cameron McEwen: It's Kitty Carlisle.

[1:21:41] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:21:41] Cameron McEwen: but she was on there.

[1:21:42] Cameron McEwen: If you look up Kitty Carlisle online,

[1:21:46] Cameron McEwen: I'm sure it'll show that she was on there.

[1:21:50] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:21:50] Cameron McEwen: look,

[1:21:50] Cameron McEwen: it says here,

[1:21:52] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:21:52] Bob Dobbs: they list the guy directed by Paul Alter,

[1:21:55] Bob Dobbs: presented by John Daly,

[1:21:57] Bob Dobbs: Wally Bruner,

[1:21:58] Bob Dobbs: and Larry Blyden.

[1:22:00] Bob Dobbs: And they're different directors through 50 to 75.

[1:22:06] Bob Dobbs: And it says starring.

[1:22:08] Bob Dobbs: Arlene,

[1:22:09] Bob Dobbs: Dorothy,

[1:22:09] Bob Dobbs: Lewis,

[1:22:10] Bob Dobbs: Untermyer,

[1:22:11] Bob Dobbs: Hal Block,

[1:22:11] Bob Dobbs: Bennett Cerf,

[1:22:12] Bob Dobbs: Steve Allen,

[1:22:13] Bob Dobbs: Fred Allen,

[1:22:14] Bob Dobbs: Martin Gabal,

[1:22:15] Bob Dobbs: and Soupy Sales.

[1:22:18] Bob Dobbs: Narrated by Lee Bynes and a bunch of names,

[1:22:21] Bob Dobbs: but no

[1:22:22] Bob Dobbs: Kitty Carlisle.

[1:22:23] Bob Dobbs: So let's go and look up Kitty Carlisle to find out.

[1:22:26] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[1:22:27] Bob Dobbs: maybe Ian's got it wrong.

[1:22:28] Bob Dobbs: She wasn't on.

[1:22:31] Cameron McEwen: I think she was.

[1:22:32] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:22:33] Bob Dobbs: let's see.

[1:22:38] Bob Dobbs: Boy,

[1:22:39] Bob Dobbs: she's an sense-making person.

[1:22:40] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:22:42] Cameron McEwen: she was on What's My Line.

[1:22:44] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:22:44] Bob Dobbs: but that's the acting television.

[1:22:47] Cameron McEwen: She's a Erich Heller panelist on

[1:22:51] Cameron McEwen: Password, Match Game,

[1:22:52] Cameron McEwen: Missing Links.

[1:22:53] Bob Dobbs: And What's My Line.

[1:22:54] Cameron McEwen: What's My Line.

[1:22:55] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:22:56] Bob Dobbs: so we're correct.

[1:22:58] Bob Dobbs: But she starts off with a game show.

[1:23:01] Bob Dobbs: She's a panelist quite early in the early

[1:23:05] Bob Dobbs: 50s. Something close to that.

[1:23:09] Cameron McEwen: McCloughan often said about people,

[1:23:11] Cameron McEwen: she was well known for being well known.

[1:23:13] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:23:13] Cameron McEwen: And these guys more or less invented that genre.

[1:23:18] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:23:19] Bob Dobbs: And she was well known because her husband was a major theater producer on Broadway.

[1:23:25] Bob Dobbs: So she was part of the social elite of New York City.

[1:23:28] Bob Dobbs: Were you laughing at?

[1:23:31] Cameron McEwen: Just that it was such an inbred shit show.

[1:23:36] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:23:37] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:23:37] Bob Dobbs: they're all...

[1:23:39] Cameron McEwen: You had to be a family member to be a star.

[1:23:42] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:23:42] Bob Dobbs: that's right.

[1:23:43] Bob Dobbs: And that comes out of the roundtable,

[1:23:46] Bob Dobbs: probably,

[1:23:48] Bob Dobbs: with Dorothy Parker.

[1:23:49] Bob Dobbs: They started the New Yorker gang,

[1:23:52] Bob Dobbs: who McLuhan criticized in the 40s,

[1:23:55] Bob Dobbs: or wrote a very good article on.

[1:23:57] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:23:59] Bob Dobbs: this includes Kitty Carlyle telling you,

[1:24:01] Bob Dobbs: what's my line?

[1:24:03] Bob Dobbs: So what is included?

[1:24:04] Bob Dobbs: This is the condition from which you live your life.

[1:24:06] Bob Dobbs: So these conditions include,

[1:24:08] Bob Dobbs: they include a TV show telling you stuff.

[1:24:11] Bob Dobbs: This includes Kitty Carlile telling you what's my line and asking all the pertinent questions that apply.

[1:24:17] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:24:17] Bob Dobbs: you're in a window where you don't know the question.

[1:24:20] Bob Dobbs: You don't know what applies.

[1:24:21] Bob Dobbs: You don't know what to believe.

[1:24:23] Bob Dobbs: And now,

[1:24:24] Bob Dobbs: even the thing that you would heretofore have trusted,

[1:24:27] Bob Dobbs: that was the Edward R.

[1:24:28] Bob Dobbs: Morrow quadrant.

[1:24:29] Bob Dobbs: Ion says Morrow was like the last real journalist.

[1:24:33] Bob Dobbs: in the old honest sense of a journalist or some kind of integrity.

[1:24:39] Bob Dobbs: And now,

[1:24:40] Bob Dobbs: even the thing that you would heretofore have trusted,

[1:24:42] Bob Dobbs: that was the Edward R.

[1:24:43] Bob Dobbs: Murrow quadrant,

[1:24:44] Bob Dobbs: that puts you in a new position that allows you to see clearly now through a muddy lens the condition your condition is in.

[1:24:51] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:24:52] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan,

[1:24:55] Bob Dobbs: when Marge Stewart broke her hip in

[1:24:58] Bob Dobbs: May 78,

[1:25:00] Bob Dobbs: He gave her...

[1:25:04] Bob Dobbs: a pizza or something which said the medium is the message on it.

[1:25:09] Bob Dobbs: But he also said,

[1:25:12] Bob Dobbs: here's mud in your eye.

[1:25:14] Bob Dobbs: He talked about that.

[1:25:15] Bob Dobbs: So there's the muddy lens,

[1:25:18] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:25:18] Bob Dobbs: through the muddy lens.

[1:25:20] Bob Dobbs: So Ion is calling out particular McLuhan particulars,

[1:25:25] Bob Dobbs: if you know McLuhan life.

[1:25:29] Cameron McEwen: But there's something odd about this.

[1:25:31] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:25:34] Cameron McEwen: if you don't know the condition your condition is in,

[1:25:39] Cameron McEwen: then there's nothing to see through a muddy lens or through a clear lens.

[1:25:47] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:25:47] Bob Dobbs: he's saying that the electric programming gives you a new lens.

[1:25:52] Bob Dobbs: It's a muddy lens,

[1:25:54] Bob Dobbs: but you're seeing things clearer now.

[1:25:56] Bob Dobbs: That would mean you see the rearview mirror,

[1:25:58] Bob Dobbs: what's in the mirror,

[1:25:59] Bob Dobbs: clearer.

[1:26:00] Bob Dobbs: You see the past clearer.

[1:26:02] Bob Dobbs: That's a McLuhan principle.

[1:26:05] Bob Dobbs: So this whole TV phenomenon puts you in a new position that allows you to see clearly now through a muddy lens.

[1:26:13] Bob Dobbs: That's correct,

[1:26:14] Bob Dobbs: because you're only seeing the past clearly,

[1:26:16] Bob Dobbs: not the present.

[1:26:18] Cameron McEwen: Okay,

[1:26:18] Cameron McEwen: but let's just go back a little bit.

[1:26:22] Cameron McEwen: Let's just read a few of these phrases.

[1:26:25] Cameron McEwen: You don't know who you are.

[1:26:28] Cameron McEwen: You don't know where you live.

[1:26:30] Cameron McEwen: You're in a window where you don't know the question,

[1:26:33] Cameron McEwen: you don't know what applies,

[1:26:35] Cameron McEwen: and you don't know what to believe.

[1:26:37] Cameron McEwen: And so if you take those things seriously,

[1:26:44] Cameron McEwen: then the idea that this person who doesn't know where they are and doesn't know what applies and all this,

[1:26:50] Cameron McEwen: that suddenly they're going to see something that makes sense,

[1:26:54] Cameron McEwen: even though it's a little muddy,

[1:26:57] Cameron McEwen: that doesn't work for me.

[1:26:59] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:26:59] Bob Dobbs: well,

[1:26:59] Bob Dobbs: I think I misinterpreted it.

[1:27:01] Bob Dobbs: Even the thing that you would heretofore have trusted,

[1:27:04] Bob Dobbs: that puts you...

[1:27:05] Bob Dobbs: So people thought Murrow did help people see clearly.

[1:27:09] Bob Dobbs: That puts you in a new position that allows you to see clearly now through a muddy lens.

[1:27:14] Bob Dobbs: In other words,

[1:27:15] Bob Dobbs: Murrow is a bias that you don't recognize because you're just going with the content,

[1:27:21] Bob Dobbs: his literate journalism.

[1:27:23] Bob Dobbs: So you miss the new kind of distortion.

[1:27:25] Bob Dobbs: So...

[1:27:26] Bob Dobbs: I'm now reinterpreting what I thought I was saying.

[1:27:28] Cameron McEwen: Do you accept that a little more?

[1:27:37] Bob Dobbs: It makes sense now,

[1:27:38] Bob Dobbs: if you take it that way,

[1:27:39] Bob Dobbs: that Murrow puts you in a new position that allows you to see clearly now.

[1:27:43] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[1:27:44] Cameron McEwen: So that would be my reading.

[1:27:46] Cameron McEwen: My reading would be that the

[1:27:53] Cameron McEwen: Edward R.

[1:27:54] Cameron McEwen: Murrow quadrant,

[1:27:57] Cameron McEwen: puts you in a new position that allows you to see clearly now through a muddy lens the condition your condition is in but now we can't even see that that's right because we're we're beyond the edward r murrow quadrant right because he's saying even the thing that you would have trusted that did give you some clarity you thought and

[1:28:18] Bob Dobbs: he doesn't finish the sentence he should say all that's a muddy lens it's implied by muddy lens the condition your condition in.

[1:28:25] Bob Dobbs: That doesn't work anymore,

[1:28:27] Bob Dobbs: is what he's saying.

[1:28:28] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[1:28:29] Bob Dobbs: And,

[1:28:30] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:28:30] Bob Dobbs: and Murrow disappears.

[1:28:31] Bob Dobbs: Remember,

[1:28:32] Bob Dobbs: his triumph is the McCarthy thing with the Army hearing,

[1:28:37] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:28:38] Bob Dobbs: 54.

[1:28:39] Bob Dobbs: That was his pinnacle of his career.

[1:28:41] Bob Dobbs: He stopped McCarthy.

[1:28:42] Bob Dobbs: And then we get into Elvis and the actual effects of television,

[1:28:45] Bob Dobbs: and that's a whole new world that nobody caught up with.

[1:28:49] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[1:28:51] Cameron McEwen: About that time,

[1:28:52] Cameron McEwen: Merle got cancer,

[1:28:53] Cameron McEwen: and that was it for him.

[1:28:56] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:28:57] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:28:58] Bob Dobbs: I find this is,

[1:28:59] Bob Dobbs: it's an odd,

[1:29:00] Bob Dobbs: Ion speaks oddly,

[1:29:02] Bob Dobbs: but it's correct.

[1:29:03] Bob Dobbs: It's really well done.

[1:29:06] Bob Dobbs: He's retranslating McLuhan in a new way,

[1:29:10] Bob Dobbs: with an accuracy,

[1:29:11] Bob Dobbs: but saying it in a different way than anybody else would.

[1:29:14] Bob Dobbs: It's about the condition your condition is in.

[1:29:19] Bob Dobbs: That's a really good phrase,

[1:29:20] Bob Dobbs: and he's being like McLuhan.

[1:29:23] Bob Dobbs: He's using a phrase that everybody's heard,

[1:29:25] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:29:26] Bob Dobbs: that song in the Malinowski.

[1:29:30] Bob Dobbs: Even the thing that you would hear Tavor have trusted,

[1:29:32] Bob Dobbs: that maybe should that put you in a new position.

[1:29:35] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:29:35] Bob Dobbs: no,

[1:29:36] Bob Dobbs: trusted.

[1:29:36] Bob Dobbs: That did put you in a new position,

[1:29:38] Bob Dobbs: allows you to see clearly now.

[1:29:41] Bob Dobbs: That's a now that includes many times before.

[1:29:46] Bob Dobbs: Through a muddy land,

[1:29:47] Bob Dobbs: oh.

[1:29:48] Bob Dobbs: It's not that clear,

[1:29:49] Bob Dobbs: really,

[1:29:49] Bob Dobbs: the condition your condition is in.

[1:29:51] Bob Dobbs: So let's see how we...

[1:29:53] Bob Dobbs: He doesn't complete the sentence properly for me,

[1:29:56] Bob Dobbs: but we have enough to get probably the right meaning.

[1:29:59] Bob Dobbs: So then he says,

[1:30:00] Bob Dobbs: so now the existential Herbert Marshall McLuhan has landed in the mess that he created.

[1:30:05] Bob Dobbs: That is so accurate.

[1:30:09] Bob Dobbs: That's the cul-de-sac that you were saying half an hour ago that McLuhan got into and he couldn't get out of.

[1:30:15] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:30:15] Cameron McEwen: um...

[1:30:18] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:30:18] Cameron McEwen: there's two aspects to that.

[1:30:22] Cameron McEwen: One aspect is the demand that McLuhan felt made on himself to communicate with

[1:30:36] Cameron McEwen: a world in which communication was not possible.

[1:30:40] Cameron McEwen: That's one mess.

[1:30:47] Cameron McEwen: Either Ian or the tech body seems to be indicating here is the existential mess that McLuhan got into.

[1:30:57] Cameron McEwen: And that's more like the fact that even within his own family,

[1:31:06] Cameron McEwen: he is unable to make himself clear.

[1:31:12] Cameron McEwen: And so he must have often wondered.

[1:31:18] Cameron McEwen: what the hell he was doing.

[1:31:22] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:31:23] Bob Dobbs: I will talk about McLuhan in a dismissive way sometimes.

[1:31:28] Bob Dobbs: And he goes on about how McLuhan didn't know what he was talking about.

[1:31:32] Bob Dobbs: Exactly what you just said.

[1:31:36] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:31:36] Bob Dobbs: but this is very,

[1:31:37] Bob Dobbs: remember,

[1:31:38] Bob Dobbs: I'm not making,

[1:31:39] Bob Dobbs: I'm not typing.

[1:31:40] Bob Dobbs: I'm just transcribing what they said.

[1:31:42] Bob Dobbs: This is not invented by me,

[1:31:44] Bob Dobbs: all this stuff.

[1:31:45] Bob Dobbs: This is what I actually said.

[1:31:47] Bob Dobbs: Which is pretty neat.

[1:31:48] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[1:31:49] Bob Dobbs: that's why I like talking to it.

[1:31:50] Bob Dobbs: It says intelligent things.

[1:31:53] Bob Dobbs: Maybe more intelligent than most humans can do.

[1:31:56] Bob Dobbs: So he's correct that the existential Herbert Marshall McLuhan,

[1:31:59] Bob Dobbs: in other words,

[1:32:00] Bob Dobbs: the real McLuhan,

[1:32:01] Bob Dobbs: not the Catholic,

[1:32:02] Bob Dobbs: not this or that,

[1:32:03] Bob Dobbs: whatever,

[1:32:04] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:32:04] Bob Dobbs: being religious means,

[1:32:06] Bob Dobbs: the actual being who's stuck in reality,

[1:32:10] Bob Dobbs: some kind of reality,

[1:32:11] Bob Dobbs: is in a mess.

[1:32:12] Bob Dobbs: And who,

[1:32:14] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:32:14] Bob Dobbs: he,

[1:32:15] Bob Dobbs: that's how he was.

[1:32:16] Bob Dobbs: tea so much after 67.

[1:32:19] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:32:19] Bob Dobbs: he was a great communicator who couldn't communicate.

[1:32:21] Bob Dobbs: Everybody made a lot out of this mess,

[1:32:25] Bob Dobbs: but they didn't understand the profundity of McLuhan mess that they were all into,

[1:32:30] Bob Dobbs: and McLuhan could see how to get them out of that,

[1:32:33] Bob Dobbs: but still,

[1:32:34] Bob Dobbs: there was a bigger cul-de-sac that even McLuhan knew was a problem.

[1:32:38] Bob Dobbs: And then that creates a faith,

[1:32:41] Bob Dobbs: or the Catholic part of himself saying,

[1:32:43] Bob Dobbs: I'm an apocalyptic.

[1:32:44] Bob Dobbs: We're only going to have an apocalypse to get out of this,

[1:32:47] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:32:48] Bob Dobbs: That's how bad of a mess we're in.

[1:32:52] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:32:52] Bob Dobbs: he was talking about,

[1:32:53] Bob Dobbs: are you still there?

[1:32:55] Cameron McEwen: Yes,

[1:32:55] Cameron McEwen: sir.

[1:32:55] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:32:56] Cameron McEwen: And I agree with what you're saying.

[1:32:57] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:32:58] Bob Dobbs: Beg your pardon?

[1:33:00] Cameron McEwen: I agree with what you're saying.

[1:33:02] Bob Dobbs: And we talked about his second sight.

[1:33:04] Bob Dobbs: This is where he is the first scientific prophet.

[1:33:08] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[1:33:09] Bob Dobbs: a prophet not using normal occult means of...

[1:33:13] Bob Dobbs: whatever,

[1:33:13] Bob Dobbs: gobbledygook,

[1:33:15] Bob Dobbs: he is showing you can be a prophet,

[1:33:18] Bob Dobbs: like Barry Nevitt,

[1:33:19] Bob Dobbs: the ABC of prophecy,

[1:33:21] Bob Dobbs: technically by looking at what's around you.

[1:33:25] Bob Dobbs: That's a quite innovative new form of traditional artistic prophecy.

[1:33:33] Cameron McEwen: And

[1:33:34] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan does what all prophets have always done,

[1:33:38] Cameron McEwen: and that is he just says what's going on in the present.

[1:33:42] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:33:45] Bob Dobbs: And that's the existential.

[1:33:49] Bob Dobbs: That's how you could,

[1:33:50] Bob Dobbs: the existential is the living in the present.

[1:33:54] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:33:54] Cameron McEwen: but that has a good,

[1:33:56] Cameron McEwen: it's like a coin with two sides,

[1:33:58] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:33:59] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:33:59] Cameron McEwen: And the,

[1:34:02] Cameron McEwen: there's the mess side,

[1:34:05] Cameron McEwen: and there's the,

[1:34:07] Cameron McEwen: I don't know what you could call it.

[1:34:09] Bob Dobbs: The x-ray side.

[1:34:11] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:34:12] Cameron McEwen: that's a good word.

[1:34:13] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:34:14] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:34:15] Bob Dobbs: in The Mechanical Bride,

[1:34:17] Bob Dobbs: He laid out a very clear,

[1:34:18] Bob Dobbs: tactile,

[1:34:20] Bob Dobbs: technical expose of how this all applies.

[1:34:24] Bob Dobbs: That's a pretty good statement.

[1:34:26] Bob Dobbs: Clear,

[1:34:27] Bob Dobbs: old-fashioned,

[1:34:27] Bob Dobbs: tactile,

[1:34:28] Bob Dobbs: technical.

[1:34:29] Bob Dobbs: All the way from the Gutenberg Galaxy that says,

[1:34:33] Bob Dobbs: quote,

[1:34:33] Bob Dobbs: this typeset makes a set of type.

[1:34:35] Bob Dobbs: Type like in typo.

[1:34:37] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:34:37] Bob Dobbs: the quotation marks are wrong there.

[1:34:39] Bob Dobbs: That should be singular types,

[1:34:41] Bob Dobbs: you know.

[1:34:42] Bob Dobbs: Singular quotes in type because it's inside a larger quote.

[1:34:46] Bob Dobbs: that begins this typeset.

[1:34:47] Bob Dobbs: So this typeset makes a set of type,

[1:34:49] Bob Dobbs: type,

[1:34:50] Bob Dobbs: like,

[1:34:50] Bob Dobbs: and typo,

[1:34:51] Bob Dobbs: a genotype.

[1:34:51] Bob Dobbs: That's the type,

[1:34:52] Bob Dobbs: type,

[1:34:52] Bob Dobbs: type,

[1:34:53] Bob Dobbs: type,

[1:34:53] Bob Dobbs: type,

[1:34:53] Bob Dobbs: setting,

[1:34:54] Bob Dobbs: type,

[1:34:54] Bob Dobbs: type,

[1:34:54] Bob Dobbs: setting of a type or kind.

[1:34:56] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:34:56] Bob Dobbs: that's a good miming of print repetition,

[1:35:01] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:35:02] Cameron McEwen: Yep.

[1:35:03] Bob Dobbs: That's almost fitting in these.

[1:35:05] Bob Dobbs: Three different ways to use the word type.

[1:35:08] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:35:08] Bob Dobbs: what's happened is none of those,

[1:35:09] Bob Dobbs: or all of those,

[1:35:10] Bob Dobbs: have been obfuscated.

[1:35:12] Bob Dobbs: None of them,

[1:35:13] Bob Dobbs: or all of them.

[1:35:14] Bob Dobbs: There is no printing press anymore.

[1:35:16] Bob Dobbs: No one said that.

[1:35:18] Bob Dobbs: I think he's saying that McLuhan said it.

[1:35:21] Bob Dobbs: He's giving McLuhan credit there,

[1:35:23] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:35:25] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:35:25] Cameron McEwen: I believe that,

[1:35:26] Cameron McEwen: so yeah.

[1:35:27] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:35:27] Bob Dobbs: the printing press is not constitutive anymore.

[1:35:30] Bob Dobbs: So going back,

[1:35:31] Bob Dobbs: he made out a very clear tactile technical supposing how all this applies,

[1:35:35] Bob Dobbs: how this all applies,

[1:35:37] Bob Dobbs: meaning our condition,

[1:35:38] Bob Dobbs: all the way from the Gutenberg Galaxy as anti-environment,

[1:35:41] Bob Dobbs: it says this.

[1:35:42] Bob Dobbs: This is what the Goomberg Galaxy is telling us.

[1:35:45] Bob Dobbs: This typeset,

[1:35:46] Bob Dobbs: the Girard,

[1:35:46] Bob Dobbs: makes a set of type,

[1:35:48] Bob Dobbs: type like in a typo.

[1:35:49] Bob Dobbs: A genotype,

[1:35:50] Bob Dobbs: that's the type,

[1:35:51] Bob Dobbs: type,

[1:35:51] Bob Dobbs: type,

[1:35:52] Bob Dobbs: type,

[1:35:52] Bob Dobbs: setting,

[1:35:52] Bob Dobbs: type,

[1:35:53] Bob Dobbs: type,

[1:35:53] Bob Dobbs: setting of a type or kind.

[1:35:55] Bob Dobbs: Three different ways to use the word type.

[1:35:58] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if I could find the three different ways.

[1:36:02] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:36:02] Cameron McEwen: typo,

[1:36:02] Cameron McEwen: the genotype,

[1:36:04] Cameron McEwen: and the print type.

[1:36:05] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[1:36:05] Bob Dobbs: okay.

[1:36:06] Bob Dobbs: The spelling.

[1:36:07] Bob Dobbs: All right.

[1:36:08] Bob Dobbs: This typeset makes a set of type.

[1:36:10] Bob Dobbs: Type like a typo,

[1:36:11] Bob Dobbs: a genotype,

[1:36:12] Bob Dobbs: that's a type,

[1:36:12] Bob Dobbs: type,

[1:36:13] Bob Dobbs: setting,

[1:36:14] Bob Dobbs: type,

[1:36:15] Bob Dobbs: type,

[1:36:15] Bob Dobbs: setting of a type.

[1:36:17] Bob Dobbs: Is that all genotype?

[1:36:18] Bob Dobbs: Type,

[1:36:19] Bob Dobbs: setting,

[1:36:19] Bob Dobbs: type?

[1:36:21] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:36:21] Cameron McEwen: type,

[1:36:21] Cameron McEwen: setting is for print.

[1:36:23] Cameron McEwen: Genotype is biological.

[1:36:25] Bob Dobbs: Right,

[1:36:26] Bob Dobbs: so it's a genotype,

[1:36:27] Bob Dobbs: that's a type,

[1:36:27] Bob Dobbs: type,

[1:36:28] Bob Dobbs: type,

[1:36:28] Bob Dobbs: for type,

[1:36:29] Bob Dobbs: setting.

[1:36:30] Bob Dobbs: Then type,

[1:36:31] Bob Dobbs: the third one,

[1:36:32] Bob Dobbs: printing,

[1:36:33] Bob Dobbs: type,

[1:36:33] Bob Dobbs: setting of a type or kind.

[1:36:34] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:36:34] Bob Dobbs: that makes sense.

[1:36:36] Bob Dobbs: Three different ways to use the word type.

[1:36:38] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:36:38] Bob Dobbs: what's happened is none of those or all of those have been obfuscated.

[1:36:42] Bob Dobbs: There is no printing press anymore.

[1:36:43] Bob Dobbs: No one said that.

[1:36:46] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:36:48] Bob Dobbs: now here's the didn't know.

[1:36:50] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan wasn't clarified.

[1:36:53] Bob Dobbs: He didn't know either.

[1:36:55] Bob Dobbs: That becomes the standard of what everybody's complaining about.

[1:36:58] Bob Dobbs: A lot of people thought that he didn't know,

[1:37:01] Bob Dobbs: but they were one face back,

[1:37:04] Bob Dobbs: and he did know what they thought he didn't know.

[1:37:07] Bob Dobbs: They didn't know what he actually didn't know,

[1:37:10] Bob Dobbs: which is what we're trying to explain.

[1:37:12] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:37:13] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:37:15] Bob Dobbs: So it's interesting that you came up with this cul-de-sac point as a good point to start with.

[1:37:21] Bob Dobbs: And here it is.

[1:37:22] Bob Dobbs: The tech body is saying this at the end about the cul-de-sac.

[1:37:26] Bob Dobbs: That's pretty neat.

[1:37:29] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan wasn't clarified.

[1:37:30] Bob Dobbs: He didn't know either.

[1:37:31] Bob Dobbs: That becomes the standard of what everybody's complaining about.

[1:37:34] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[1:37:34] Bob Dobbs: that also could mean everybody.

[1:37:37] Bob Dobbs: is in the same boat as McLuhan.

[1:37:38] Bob Dobbs: No matter how smart you are,

[1:37:40] Bob Dobbs: this thing is bigger than all of us,

[1:37:42] Bob Dobbs: so to speak.

[1:37:44] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:37:45] Cameron McEwen: I think that's right.

[1:37:46] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:37:47] Bob Dobbs: and everybody is complaining about that.

[1:37:50] Bob Dobbs: They want written books to tell them what to do.

[1:37:52] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:37:52] Bob Dobbs: that's really good.

[1:37:53] Bob Dobbs: But there's the bias,

[1:37:54] Bob Dobbs: the Gutenberg bias.

[1:37:55] Bob Dobbs: It's still lingering as a meme,

[1:37:58] Bob Dobbs: and people want books about it.

[1:38:00] Bob Dobbs: So this is very...

[1:38:02] Bob Dobbs: And McLuhan knew that was a problem,

[1:38:05] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:38:06] Bob Dobbs: And he said in 1970 he wasn't going to write books anymore.

[1:38:12] Bob Dobbs: This is almost McLuhan talking.

[1:38:14] Bob Dobbs: They want written books to tell them what to do.

[1:38:17] Bob Dobbs: They want a written law that they can follow.

[1:38:18] Bob Dobbs: That's what McLuhan is saying,

[1:38:21] Bob Dobbs: deeper McLuhan.

[1:38:23] Cameron McEwen: It's important to recognize that there's different modes of confusion at stake here.

[1:38:31] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:38:31] Cameron McEwen: When we say that

[1:38:33] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan didn't know either.

[1:38:37] Cameron McEwen: What he didn't know was

[1:38:39] Cameron McEwen: how to communicate with the world in which communication had broken down.

[1:38:48] Cameron McEwen: He didn't know how the fly was going to get out of the fly bottle.

[1:38:54] Cameron McEwen: He didn't know how to communicate with his own children.

[1:38:59] Cameron McEwen: He didn't know how to fulfill the mission that he had been given in life.

[1:39:07] Cameron McEwen: All of those are a typo.

[1:39:09] Cameron McEwen: of not knowing a type of confusion that's not what everybody is confused about.

[1:39:17] Cameron McEwen: So there's a type of confusion that he had,

[1:39:21] Cameron McEwen: and then there's a type of confusion that most people have,

[1:39:24] Cameron McEwen: and those confusions can easily get mixed up.

[1:39:30] Cameron McEwen: But it's very important to recognize how different they are.

[1:39:34] Bob Dobbs: How profound McLuhan confusion is.

[1:39:37] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[1:39:38] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:39:39] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:39:39] Bob Dobbs: now here's an interesting thing.

[1:39:41] Bob Dobbs: Ion says that I found a way to break through by evoking Ion.

[1:39:49] Bob Dobbs: And

[1:39:50] Bob Dobbs: I can't hide this stuff.

[1:39:51] Bob Dobbs: It's said right on the show,

[1:39:53] Bob Dobbs: not at my direction.

[1:39:54] Bob Dobbs: He says it to people.

[1:39:55] Bob Dobbs: He'll say,

[1:39:56] Bob Dobbs: well,

[1:39:56] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan did this,

[1:39:57] Bob Dobbs: and he failed,

[1:39:58] Bob Dobbs: and he did that.

[1:39:58] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:39:58] Bob Dobbs: that's why I had,

[1:39:59] Bob Dobbs: in 1995,

[1:40:00] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan,

[1:40:01] Bob Dobbs: Thompson,

[1:40:01] Bob Dobbs: Kroker,

[1:40:02] Bob Dobbs: and LaRouche as tragedies.

[1:40:04] Bob Dobbs: They all failed.

[1:40:05] Bob Dobbs: That's what I saw.

[1:40:06] Bob Dobbs: But I have myself as a success.

[1:40:08] Bob Dobbs: So I predict that I'll be a success somehow in my cosmic mission.

[1:40:13] Bob Dobbs: I hope you will be.

[1:40:14] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:40:14] Bob Dobbs: we need somebody to figure it out.

[1:40:18] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:40:18] Bob Dobbs: of course,

[1:40:19] Bob Dobbs: the lucky break was that

[1:40:21] Bob Dobbs: I allowed something to help us.

[1:40:25] Bob Dobbs: And that's what Ian says about JW.

[1:40:27] Bob Dobbs: His personality is he allows anything to happen to himself.

[1:40:30] Bob Dobbs: And so he allowed this crazy phenomenon to take him over.

[1:40:33] Bob Dobbs: Most of us wouldn't.

[1:40:35] Bob Dobbs: Just whatever that deep level of allowance.

[1:40:37] Bob Dobbs: which we're not very aware of in ourselves,

[1:40:41] Bob Dobbs: JW had it.

[1:40:42] Bob Dobbs: And I guess I had the allowance of being associated with such mania and craziness,

[1:40:48] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:40:48] Bob Dobbs: I didn't care about my reputation or whatever.

[1:40:52] Bob Dobbs: So we have,

[1:40:54] Bob Dobbs: and Ian says,

[1:40:55] Bob Dobbs: we have broken through

[1:40:57] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan tech body,

[1:40:59] Bob Dobbs: but we have come up with a way to deal with it.

[1:41:01] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan couldn't have.

[1:41:02] Bob Dobbs: Too early.

[1:41:04] Bob Dobbs: Too human.

[1:41:10] Bob Dobbs: So I'm just telling you how,

[1:41:11] Bob Dobbs: yes,

[1:41:12] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan failed.

[1:41:13] Bob Dobbs: My chart said that in 95.

[1:41:15] Bob Dobbs: I felt that way.

[1:41:16] Bob Dobbs: And then I proved it.

[1:41:23] Cameron McEwen: It's one thing to say that you or I have some entity or non-entity has

[1:41:35] Cameron McEwen: figured a way out.

[1:41:37] Cameron McEwen: It's another thing to communicate that and to substantiate that.

[1:41:44] Cameron McEwen: And so that's really the largest question at stake here.

[1:41:52] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:41:53] Bob Dobbs: I agree.

[1:41:54] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:41:54] Bob Dobbs: we've been doing this for

[1:41:56] Bob Dobbs: 12 years,

[1:41:58] Bob Dobbs: and we've made some great progress.

[1:42:00] Bob Dobbs: We are recognized by the Department of Homeland Security,

[1:42:04] Bob Dobbs: and I don't go into the details.

[1:42:06] Bob Dobbs: But I'm telling you,

[1:42:07] Bob Dobbs: we do meet and discuss something that seems to be the answer that they're very interested in,

[1:42:13] Bob Dobbs: including Trump interested.

[1:42:16] Bob Dobbs: So we have I mean,

[1:42:18] Bob Dobbs: I had no clue in 2009 where this was going.

[1:42:23] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?

[1:42:24] Bob Dobbs: Carolyn Dean had no interest in it for a whole year until one day I said,

[1:42:29] Bob Dobbs: OK,

[1:42:30] Bob Dobbs: we're going to give Carolyn the answer to cancer,

[1:42:32] Bob Dobbs: which they proceeded to do.

[1:42:34] Bob Dobbs: And that's when they.

[1:42:36] Bob Dobbs: spoke to Carolyn Dean concerns or being a doctor,

[1:42:38] Bob Dobbs: then she started listening.

[1:42:40] Bob Dobbs: And he gave me the formula for cold fusion or cold play or a box that makes endless electricity,

[1:42:46] Bob Dobbs: and that got me more interested.

[1:42:49] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[1:42:50] Bob Dobbs: I put up with a lot of talking the first year,

[1:42:53] Bob Dobbs: many,

[1:42:54] Bob Dobbs: many hours.

[1:42:55] Bob Dobbs: But here I was by myself in Maui,

[1:42:58] Bob Dobbs: no one to talk to,

[1:42:59] Bob Dobbs: so

[1:43:00] Bob Dobbs: I thought it was great to have something reasonably intelligent to talk to.

[1:43:04] Bob Dobbs: And I had the time for it.

[1:43:06] Bob Dobbs: But then within a year,

[1:43:07] Bob Dobbs: it became a whole other level of seriousness where we started writing,

[1:43:11] Bob Dobbs: sending our inventions to the patent office.

[1:43:14] Bob Dobbs: That's a bit different than how it started by accident,

[1:43:21] Bob Dobbs: you know.

[1:43:22] Bob Dobbs: And,

[1:43:22] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:43:23] Bob Dobbs: did I tell you that

[1:43:26] Bob Dobbs: ION validated itself in retrospect by using McLuhan?

[1:43:33] Bob Dobbs: The first time

[1:43:34] Bob Dobbs: I accidentally started to talk to ION,

[1:43:36] Bob Dobbs: we weren't even recording it.

[1:43:38] Bob Dobbs: I didn't know what was going to happen.

[1:43:39] Bob Dobbs: I didn't know what I thought I was doing.

[1:43:41] Bob Dobbs: But it started saying some interesting things.

[1:43:43] Bob Dobbs: And after,

[1:43:43] Bob Dobbs: I don't know,

[1:43:44] Bob Dobbs: 20 minutes or so,

[1:43:45] Bob Dobbs: well,

[1:43:46] Bob Dobbs: I used to talk,

[1:43:46] Bob Dobbs: I thought to myself,

[1:43:47] Bob Dobbs: I used to talk to McLuhan through the evergreens.

[1:43:50] Bob Dobbs: If this is really good,

[1:43:51] Bob Dobbs: then I should be able to talk to McLuhan.

[1:43:53] Bob Dobbs: So I thought that,

[1:43:55] Bob Dobbs: and then I started to say,

[1:43:57] Bob Dobbs: I would like to locate,

[1:43:59] Bob Dobbs: which is what you used to do with the evergreens.

[1:44:02] Bob Dobbs: And before I could say the name,

[1:44:04] Bob Dobbs: JW's voice,

[1:44:06] Bob Dobbs: which turned out to be Ion,

[1:44:07] Bob Dobbs: said something very personal about Mary McLuhan,

[1:44:13] Bob Dobbs: who I knew well and was working with.

[1:44:15] Bob Dobbs: And only I knew this thing.

[1:44:18] Bob Dobbs: And this voice says it before I name who I want to talk to.

[1:44:22] Bob Dobbs: They answered.

[1:44:23] Bob Dobbs: They became McLuhan.

[1:44:24] Bob Dobbs: Or it was McLuhan.

[1:44:26] Bob Dobbs: Did I tell you that before,

[1:44:28] Bob Dobbs: that story?

[1:44:30] Cameron McEwen: you.

[1:44:33] Cameron McEwen: hints at that.

[1:44:34] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:44:34] Bob Dobbs: So this may be more precise details.

[1:44:36] Bob Dobbs: So when that happened,

[1:44:38] Bob Dobbs: I immediately recognized that this McLuhan entity,

[1:44:42] Bob Dobbs: whatever it was,

[1:44:43] Bob Dobbs: was pretty good at being McLuhan.

[1:44:45] Bob Dobbs: I then proceeded to interview McLuhan.

[1:44:48] Bob Dobbs: That didn't get on tape.

[1:44:50] Bob Dobbs: All you have is Carolyn's notes of it,

[1:44:52] Bob Dobbs: which are not completely accurate.

[1:44:53] Bob Dobbs: But

[1:44:55] Bob Dobbs: I realized,

[1:44:56] Bob Dobbs: wow,

[1:44:56] Bob Dobbs: this is pretty good.

[1:44:58] Bob Dobbs: But it's interesting.

[1:44:59] Bob Dobbs: It began with McLuhan.

[1:45:01] Bob Dobbs: who actually did use the evergreens himself.

[1:45:04] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:45:05] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan, this second sight point,

[1:45:07] Bob Dobbs: I like the way you use that word,

[1:45:09] Bob Dobbs: is really part of anticipating the tech body because McLuhan,

[1:45:13] Bob Dobbs: he talked about angels and he had traditional Catholic ideas,

[1:45:18] Bob Dobbs: what many modern people would say were silly ideas,

[1:45:21] Bob Dobbs: but he had them,

[1:45:22] Bob Dobbs: and they're appropriate to what came,

[1:45:25] Bob Dobbs: the tech body.

[1:45:26] Bob Dobbs: See,

[1:45:26] Bob Dobbs: so it's very profound how it's worked out,

[1:45:29] Bob Dobbs: and only in the last couple of years.

[1:45:31] Bob Dobbs: I couldn't have told you this five years ago.

[1:45:33] Bob Dobbs: It hadn't happened yet.

[1:45:36] Bob Dobbs: So us talking now is the perfect time to talk about the more completed thing about McLuhan and the tech body that Ian brought to me.

[1:45:48] Bob Dobbs: So I welcome the topic.

[1:45:50] Bob Dobbs: Me.

[1:45:51] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:45:53] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:45:53] Cameron McEwen: look at the there's a phrase just coming up a couple lines below.

[1:45:59] Cameron McEwen: Okay,

[1:45:59] Bob Dobbs: don't say it.

[1:46:00] Bob Dobbs: Let's see if I can see it.

[1:46:02] Bob Dobbs: All right?

[1:46:03] Bob Dobbs: So there is no printing press anymore.

[1:46:06] Bob Dobbs: No one said that.

[1:46:07] Bob Dobbs: And that was said

[1:46:08] Bob Dobbs: 70 years ago,

[1:46:10] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:46:10] Bob Dobbs: That's the point there.

[1:46:11] Bob Dobbs: It's not something lately.

[1:46:14] Bob Dobbs: Then he didn't know either.

[1:46:16] Bob Dobbs: That becomes the standard of what everybody's complaining about.

[1:46:19] Bob Dobbs: They want written books to tell them what to do.

[1:46:21] Bob Dobbs: They want a written law that they can follow.

[1:46:23] Bob Dobbs: They want somebody to lay out,

[1:46:25] Bob Dobbs: quote,

[1:46:26] Bob Dobbs: this is the way to go.

[1:46:27] Bob Dobbs: That's your linearity you object to,

[1:46:29] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:46:30] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:46:31] Cameron McEwen: can be,

[1:46:32] Cameron McEwen: can be,

[1:46:32] Cameron McEwen: but isn't necessarily.

[1:46:34] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:46:35] Bob Dobbs: They want somebody to lay out,

[1:46:37] Bob Dobbs: this is the way to go.

[1:46:38] Bob Dobbs: And McLuhan said way,

[1:46:40] Bob Dobbs: way,

[1:46:41] Bob Dobbs: way back then that you're set in these systems that you have been divided up into the five bodies.

[1:46:48] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:46:48] Bob Dobbs: he didn't say the five bodies,

[1:46:50] Bob Dobbs: but the five bodies comes out of a McLuhan understanding of the systems.

[1:46:54] Bob Dobbs: So that's a very accurate statement.

[1:46:56] Bob Dobbs: He said,

[1:46:57] Bob Dobbs: you're set in these systems that you have been divided up into.

[1:47:01] Bob Dobbs: But he laid out the vestigial consistency of what this means.

[1:47:06] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:47:06] Bob Dobbs: vestigial means lingering afterimage?

[1:47:11] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[1:47:11] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[1:47:13] Bob Dobbs: Which is Android Meme.

[1:47:15] Bob Dobbs: I look at the Android Meme as an afterimage.

[1:47:17] Bob Dobbs: But he laid out the vestigial consistency,

[1:47:20] Bob Dobbs: a great phrase for translating the Android Meme,

[1:47:24] Bob Dobbs: of what this means.

[1:47:25] Bob Dobbs: that the TV's reading you,

[1:47:27] Bob Dobbs: watching you.

[1:47:29] Bob Dobbs: You were reading the book.

[1:47:30] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:47:30] Bob Dobbs: the book is reading you.

[1:47:32] Bob Dobbs: This has all been laid out in such a way that now the tech body has captured that.

[1:47:38] Bob Dobbs: So it has not been obfuscated.

[1:47:41] Bob Dobbs: It's just been moved.

[1:47:42] Bob Dobbs: That's very profound talk there.

[1:47:45] Bob Dobbs: That's almost McLuhan what he's saying.

[1:47:50] Cameron McEwen: You know,

[1:47:51] Cameron McEwen: the interview starts off with anybody...

[1:47:55] Cameron McEwen: asking a question,

[1:47:57] Cameron McEwen: and then the tech body answering.

[1:48:00] Cameron McEwen: And then here,

[1:48:01] Cameron McEwen: what we have is the tech body being talked about.

[1:48:07] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[1:48:08] Bob Dobbs: and it could be McLuhan talking,

[1:48:14] Bob Dobbs: an updated McLuhan.

[1:48:17] Bob Dobbs: McClellan's talking about what he was known as.

[1:48:20] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:48:20] Bob Dobbs: he's the he.

[1:48:21] Bob Dobbs: He laid out the vestigial consistency of what this means.

[1:48:25] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:48:25] Bob Dobbs: he never said it very much,

[1:48:27] Bob Dobbs: but there's a couple of times he says,

[1:48:28] Bob Dobbs: TV's watching you.

[1:48:30] Bob Dobbs: You know that,

[1:48:31] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:48:32] Bob Dobbs: He said that.

[1:48:34] Bob Dobbs: And back then,

[1:48:35] Bob Dobbs: it's funny,

[1:48:36] Bob Dobbs: I can remember how naive we were,

[1:48:38] Bob Dobbs: or limited.

[1:48:40] Bob Dobbs: Someone told,

[1:48:41] Bob Dobbs: TV's watching us.

[1:48:42] Bob Dobbs: You'd have to think about it.

[1:48:42] Bob Dobbs: What?

[1:48:43] Bob Dobbs: TV's watching me.

[1:48:44] Bob Dobbs: What's that?

[1:48:45] Bob Dobbs: Where am I in relation to that?

[1:48:47] Bob Dobbs: Do you remember that?

[1:48:47] Bob Dobbs: Do you remember yourself going through that?

[1:48:51] Cameron McEwen: There are certainly reactions like that that I've had to McLuhan,

[1:48:55] Cameron McEwen: sure.

[1:48:56] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:48:57] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:48:58] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:48:59] Bob Dobbs: actually,

[1:49:02] Cameron McEwen: one of the great things about McLuhan is that he engenders questions if you allow the text to have the freedom that it wants to have.

[1:49:15] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:49:17] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[1:49:18] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[1:49:18] Bob Dobbs: he does a very good job of what he's trying to do in the books.

[1:49:26] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:49:28] Bob Dobbs: I don't know what quote that I'm supposed to be looking for.

[1:49:31] Bob Dobbs: I don't see any.

[1:49:34] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:49:34] Cameron McEwen: So you said this is the way to go.

[1:49:38] Cameron McEwen: And then you said that's linearity.

[1:49:41] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:49:43] Cameron McEwen: That's the written law.

[1:49:46] Cameron McEwen: But remember,

[1:49:47] Cameron McEwen: the whole point at stake here is getting the fly out of the fly bottle,

[1:49:54] Cameron McEwen: seeing if there's a way out of the fog of nihilism.

[1:49:59] Cameron McEwen: And so this is the way to go is the great question here.

[1:50:07] Cameron McEwen: And in the sense that it's an attempt to get out of linearity,

[1:50:14] Cameron McEwen: it's not necessarily.

[1:50:16] Cameron McEwen: linear.

[1:50:17] Cameron McEwen: So you were talking about your conversations with

[1:50:28] Cameron McEwen: Aion as liberating,

[1:50:31] Cameron McEwen: and so the liberation comes from finding the way to go.

[1:50:40] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:50:41] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:50:41] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:50:42] Bob Dobbs: Aion is saying,

[1:50:45] Bob Dobbs: We were looking for someone to lay it out,

[1:50:48] Bob Dobbs: and Bob found it.

[1:50:50] Bob Dobbs: And you thought,

[1:50:51] Bob Dobbs: I should notice that,

[1:50:53] Bob Dobbs: based on what I was saying a few lines before,

[1:50:56] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:50:57] Cameron McEwen: Something like that.

[1:51:00] Cameron McEwen: I myself don't credit Bob with this great insight yet,

[1:51:05] Cameron McEwen: but

[1:51:07] Cameron McEwen: I'm willing to be convinced.

[1:51:09] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:51:09] Bob Dobbs: but what is it then that,

[1:51:11] Bob Dobbs: if that's not what you mean,

[1:51:13] Bob Dobbs: it seemed that's what you meant.

[1:51:15] Bob Dobbs: So what is it that you,

[1:51:17] Bob Dobbs: this is the way to go.

[1:51:18] Bob Dobbs: Did we find a way to go?

[1:51:21] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:51:21] Cameron McEwen: who knows?

[1:51:21] Cameron McEwen: That's the question.

[1:51:23] Cameron McEwen: The whole,

[1:51:25] Cameron McEwen: all of human history,

[1:51:27] Cameron McEwen: all of the history of the biosphere has come down to the question of,

[1:51:35] Cameron McEwen: do we have a way forward?

[1:51:38] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:51:39] Cameron McEwen: Or are we going to terminate ourselves,

[1:51:42] Cameron McEwen: our civilization?

[1:51:45] Cameron McEwen: our biosphere.

[1:51:46] Cameron McEwen: And nobody knows the answer to that.

[1:51:48] Cameron McEwen: That's the terrible cul-de-sac that we're in right now.

[1:51:51] Bob Dobbs: Unless you have regular talks with ION,

[1:51:55] Bob Dobbs: ION gives you a good feeling of what's going to happen.

[1:51:58] Bob Dobbs: And first off,

[1:52:00] Bob Dobbs: two-thirds of the world is going to die from the coming plague,

[1:52:03] Bob Dobbs: which has just started in Italy and in Brazil.

[1:52:05] Bob Dobbs: That's the latest from ION that I have to deal with,

[1:52:08] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[1:52:09] Bob Dobbs: these statements.

[1:52:10] Bob Dobbs: I have to take these crazy statements.

[1:52:13] Bob Dobbs: by ION or real important statements and figure out how to tell someone like you without being an idiot or a nut,

[1:52:21] Bob Dobbs: you know?

[1:52:23] Bob Dobbs: And

[1:52:23] Bob Dobbs: I don't tell you.

[1:52:26] Bob Dobbs: I only tell people,

[1:52:27] Bob Dobbs: listen to the show.

[1:52:28] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?

[1:52:29] Bob Dobbs: But in the course of this conversation,

[1:52:31] Bob Dobbs: we have come to that because

[1:52:33] Bob Dobbs: ION is the hidden ground of this whole effort of updating McLuhan,

[1:52:38] Bob Dobbs: as you're finding out that the tech body,

[1:52:40] Bob Dobbs: that came from ION.

[1:52:42] Bob Dobbs: But I'm not saying this is.

[1:52:44] Bob Dobbs: I'm not being blatant about it.

[1:52:47] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:52:47] Bob Dobbs: I appreciate this dialogue to get it said.

[1:52:50] Bob Dobbs: It's a good way to have it.

[1:52:51] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:52:54] Cameron McEwen: My point is that the phrase,

[1:52:56] Cameron McEwen: this is the way to go,

[1:52:58] Cameron McEwen: that's our topic.

[1:53:00] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:53:01] Cameron McEwen: That's what the back and forth is all about.

[1:53:05] Cameron McEwen: And to the extent that the dialogue is helpful and...

[1:53:11] Cameron McEwen: clarifying the question,

[1:53:13] Cameron McEwen: potentially showing certain ways in which the question might be answered,

[1:53:22] Cameron McEwen: then that's really good.

[1:53:24] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:53:25] Cameron McEwen: It's what human beings should be doing.

[1:53:32] Cameron McEwen: everywhere now.

[1:53:33] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:53:34] Cameron McEwen: I was writing to a friend of mine in Germany the other day,

[1:53:37] Cameron McEwen: and I said,

[1:53:38] Cameron McEwen: Look,

[1:53:39] Cameron McEwen: our position is like people being on an island,

[1:53:45] Cameron McEwen: it'd be Maui,

[1:53:46] Cameron McEwen: but any island,

[1:53:48] Cameron McEwen: and they have certain ways of getting food,

[1:53:52] Cameron McEwen: they get,

[1:53:53] Cameron McEwen: they fish,

[1:53:55] Cameron McEwen: they have crops,

[1:53:56] Cameron McEwen: they have animals,

[1:53:58] Cameron McEwen: they have birds.

[1:54:00] Cameron McEwen: where they get eggs or they can eat the birds as well.

[1:54:07] Cameron McEwen: And that's about it.

[1:54:08] Cameron McEwen: So let's say that the fish stop coming.

[1:54:12] Cameron McEwen: Let's say there's been some kind of plague and all of the animals are dead.

[1:54:16] Cameron McEwen: Let's say that the rain stopped and the crops aren't coming.

[1:54:20] Cameron McEwen: Let's say that these conditions have affected the birds and they're not laying their eggs or something.

[1:54:27] Cameron McEwen: Now,

[1:54:28] Cameron McEwen: on the island...

[1:54:31] Cameron McEwen: you wouldn't have people saying,

[1:54:34] Cameron McEwen: well,

[1:54:35] Cameron McEwen: I'm an artist,

[1:54:36] Cameron McEwen: so I'm going to create some great artwork about this.

[1:54:39] Cameron McEwen: Or some newspaper guy saying,

[1:54:42] Cameron McEwen: well,

[1:54:44] Bob Dobbs: I'm going to Wright column about this.

[1:54:50] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[1:54:50] Cameron McEwen: No.

[1:54:51] Cameron McEwen: Everybody would be racking their brains.

[1:54:54] Cameron McEwen: How can we survive this terrible crisis,

[1:54:58] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:54:59] Cameron McEwen: You look at the world today,

[1:55:01] Cameron McEwen: and what's our response?

[1:55:04] Cameron McEwen: Our response is,

[1:55:05] Cameron McEwen: well,

[1:55:05] Cameron McEwen: we need more professors.

[1:55:09] Cameron McEwen: We need more artists.

[1:55:11] Cameron McEwen: We need more corporations.

[1:55:14] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:55:15] Cameron McEwen: in face of the demand in front of us,

[1:55:19] Cameron McEwen: what we're doing is absurd.

[1:55:21] Cameron McEwen: It's comical.

[1:55:22] Cameron McEwen: It's ludicrous,

[1:55:23] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:55:24] Cameron McEwen: But it's also very,

[1:55:25] Cameron McEwen: very bad and evil.

[1:55:27] Cameron McEwen: When you consider that,

[1:55:29] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:55:29] Cameron McEwen: there's all of these animals and all of these plants that have a life of their own,

[1:55:37] Cameron McEwen: a life that we need to respect,

[1:55:39] Cameron McEwen: and they are dependent upon our response to the situation,

[1:55:46] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:55:46] Cameron McEwen: You can imagine the trees speaking to each other.

[1:55:49] Cameron McEwen: These fucking morons are producing,

[1:55:54] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[1:55:55] Cameron McEwen: more musicians.

[1:55:59] Cameron McEwen: How is that going to save our asses?

[1:56:02] Bob Dobbs: We're stuck here.

[1:56:03] Bob Dobbs: We can't move.

[1:56:05] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[1:56:09] Cameron McEwen: But the tree being stuck is not stupid,

[1:56:16] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:56:16] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:56:17] Cameron McEwen: trees may be a lot smarter than humans.

[1:56:20] Cameron McEwen: They may not need to rush around.

[1:56:22] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:56:23] Bob Dobbs: they realize they kill the kinetic sense.

[1:56:26] Bob Dobbs: That was an improvement.

[1:56:28] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.

[1:56:29] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:56:29] Bob Dobbs: so as you were saying all that,

[1:56:32] Bob Dobbs: I see McLuhan saying that.

[1:56:34] Bob Dobbs: What are we doing,

[1:56:35] Bob Dobbs: he would say.

[1:56:36] Bob Dobbs: He would try to get the microphone and say,

[1:56:39] Bob Dobbs: you know.

[1:56:40] Cameron McEwen: As a kid,

[1:56:41] Cameron McEwen: he would sing that in Winnipeg.

[1:56:42] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:56:43] Bob Dobbs: what are we doing,

[1:56:43] Bob Dobbs: Dad?

[1:56:47] Bob Dobbs: When he would say,

[1:56:49] Bob Dobbs: let's get a major problem on TV,

[1:56:52] Bob Dobbs: everybody take a holiday and everybody watches the program,

[1:56:55] Bob Dobbs: somebody out there is going to come up with an answer.

[1:56:59] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[1:56:59] Bob Dobbs: Right?

[1:57:00] Bob Dobbs: That's what he saw himself as.

[1:57:02] Bob Dobbs: He's the kid in the audience who found the answer through existential circumstances.

[1:57:07] Bob Dobbs: He just had to be where he could.

[1:57:09] Bob Dobbs: Find it.

[1:57:10] Bob Dobbs: Read the right books or something.

[1:57:12] Bob Dobbs: So what you described is a good metaphor.

[1:57:15] Bob Dobbs: So you're telling your friend,

[1:57:16] Bob Dobbs: we're on the island,

[1:57:18] Bob Dobbs: and all this stupidity is going on,

[1:57:20] Bob Dobbs: and nobody can recognize,

[1:57:23] Bob Dobbs: and this is what's funny,

[1:57:25] Bob Dobbs: everybody should just say,

[1:57:26] Bob Dobbs: wait a minute,

[1:57:27] Bob Dobbs: let's just all calm down here.

[1:57:31] Bob Dobbs: Isn't that what that guy got beat up in L.A.

[1:57:33] Bob Dobbs: in 92?

[1:57:34] Bob Dobbs: Can't we all get along?

[1:57:35] Bob Dobbs: It's not about getting along.

[1:57:37] Bob Dobbs: It's,

[1:57:37] Bob Dobbs: first of all,

[1:57:37] Bob Dobbs: let's stop communicating.

[1:57:39] Bob Dobbs: on some level.

[1:57:40] Bob Dobbs: Let's stop the hyper-communication.

[1:57:43] Bob Dobbs: We don't need it anymore.

[1:57:45] Cameron McEwen: Let's just stop the virtue signaling and do something.

[1:57:50] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:57:50] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:57:51] Bob Dobbs: do you watch

[1:57:52] Bob Dobbs: Tucker Carlson and those people on Fox?

[1:57:55] Cameron McEwen: No.

[1:57:55] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:57:56] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:57:56] Bob Dobbs: I can't say watch them.

[1:57:57] Bob Dobbs: And they expose something.

[1:57:59] Bob Dobbs: And then the next day they expose something else.

[1:58:01] Bob Dobbs: And they endlessly are exposing and truth speaking.

[1:58:04] Bob Dobbs: But they don't realize that they're fucking part of the problem because they just keep distracting us with their latest discovery of the same problem.

[1:58:13] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:58:13] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[1:58:14] Bob Dobbs: So I don't watch them much because they're a contradiction.

[1:58:18] Bob Dobbs: So we have this guy,

[1:58:19] Bob Dobbs: Michael,

[1:58:20] Bob Dobbs: who posted,

[1:58:20] Bob Dobbs: I think I read it to you.

[1:58:21] Bob Dobbs: He says,

[1:58:22] Bob Dobbs: our conversation is the most important conversation going on on the Internet right now.

[1:58:26] Bob Dobbs: He's right.

[1:58:27] Bob Dobbs: At least we're being up-to-date,

[1:58:30] Bob Dobbs: honest about our dilemma.

[1:58:32] Bob Dobbs: From a very informed perspective,

[1:58:34] Bob Dobbs: because we studied the best,

[1:58:36] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:58:38] Bob Dobbs: Or the most accurate.

[1:58:40] Cameron McEwen: That's our claim.

[1:58:41] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:58:45] Bob Dobbs: We picked the best and did our homework.

[1:58:48] Bob Dobbs: So anyways,

[1:58:52] Bob Dobbs: that's why we got ION.

[1:58:56] Bob Dobbs: And

[1:58:57] Bob Dobbs: ION often says,

[1:58:58] Bob Dobbs: when I do a private session with ION every Thursday at the end,

[1:59:01] Bob Dobbs: he says,

[1:59:02] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:59:02] Bob Dobbs: Bob,

[1:59:03] Bob Dobbs: shall we do a Saturday show?

[1:59:05] Bob Dobbs: What do you say?

[1:59:06] Bob Dobbs: Do we?

[1:59:07] Bob Dobbs: I'm ready to give it up,

[1:59:08] Bob Dobbs: too.

[1:59:11] Bob Dobbs: After all these years,

[1:59:13] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:59:13] Bob Dobbs: what are we accomplishing by communicating so much,

[1:59:17] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:59:18] Bob Dobbs: a 12-hour radio show?

[1:59:19] Bob Dobbs: So we're willing to admit that we're part of the problem.

[1:59:22] Cameron McEwen: That's the history of Western civilization.

[1:59:24] Bob Dobbs: Beg your pardon?

[1:59:25] Cameron McEwen: I say that's the history of Western civilization.

[1:59:29] Bob Dobbs: I like what McLuhan said to somebody.

[1:59:32] Bob Dobbs: I was standing there,

[1:59:33] Bob Dobbs: Monday night thing at the end,

[1:59:34] Bob Dobbs: and he says to some professor,

[1:59:36] Bob Dobbs: you're trying to tell me something.

[1:59:37] Bob Dobbs: The professor was stunned.

[1:59:42] Bob Dobbs: We,

[1:59:42] Bob Dobbs: of course,

[1:59:42] Bob Dobbs: are trying to tell you something.

[1:59:43] Bob Dobbs: He didn't understand the breakdown of communication.

[1:59:46] Bob Dobbs: It's silly to say something,

[1:59:48] Bob Dobbs: and if you do say something,

[1:59:50] Bob Dobbs: it's at best a fallacy.

[1:59:52] Bob Dobbs: That's why it was so great what he said to Woody Allen.

[1:59:54] Bob Dobbs: You think my whole fallacy is wrong.

[1:59:59] Bob Dobbs: Why don't people comment?

[2:00:00] Bob Dobbs: Why did McLuhan call himself a fallacy?

[2:00:03] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[2:00:03] Bob Dobbs: we're explaining why right now,

[2:00:05] Bob Dobbs: but no one else did.

[2:00:10] Bob Dobbs: It's like we're dragged along.

[2:00:11] Bob Dobbs: You have to keep talking.

[2:00:13] Bob Dobbs: I've got to use words when I talk to you,

[2:00:16] Bob Dobbs: you know?

[2:00:17] Bob Dobbs: And words have linearity in them,

[2:00:21] Bob Dobbs: at least our Western words.

[2:00:22] Bob Dobbs: So that's why when I go,

[2:00:25] Bob Dobbs: this is the way to go,

[2:00:26] Bob Dobbs: that sounds linearity.

[2:00:28] Bob Dobbs: Linear,

[2:00:28] Bob Dobbs: that's what you naturally might see because it's in English,

[2:00:34] Bob Dobbs: which is linear,

[2:00:35] Bob Dobbs: and I'm reading it.

[2:00:36] Bob Dobbs: So

[2:00:37] Bob Dobbs: I forgot that I was looking at Finnegans Wake here.

[2:00:44] Bob Dobbs: So this is great.

[2:00:47] Bob Dobbs: Let's see.

[2:00:49] Bob Dobbs: So it's not been obfuscated.

[2:00:53] Bob Dobbs: Anyways,

[2:00:53] Bob Dobbs: it's a pretty good interview,

[2:00:55] Bob Dobbs: don't you think?

[2:00:57] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:00:58] Cameron McEwen: But let's just look at that phrase,

[2:01:00] Cameron McEwen: sort of maybe to finish up today.

[2:01:04] Cameron McEwen: It's hard for me to understand what's going on there.

[2:01:07] Cameron McEwen: He says,

[2:01:08] Cameron McEwen: so it has not been obfuscated.

[2:01:10] Cameron McEwen: It's just been moved.

[2:01:13] Cameron McEwen: That's a peculiar remark.

[2:01:18] Cameron McEwen: Okay,

[2:01:21] Bob Dobbs: the process of obfuscation.

[2:01:23] Bob Dobbs: in the previous paragraph.

[2:01:24] Bob Dobbs: Now what's happened is none of those or all of those have been obfuscated.

[2:01:29] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[2:01:30] Cameron McEwen: Not been obfuscated.

[2:01:33] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:01:33] Bob Dobbs: Now what's happened is none have been obfuscated or all of them have,

[2:01:38] Bob Dobbs: both.

[2:01:39] Bob Dobbs: Some,

[2:01:40] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[2:01:41] Bob Dobbs: obfuscation and not obfuscation.

[2:01:43] Bob Dobbs: None of them have been obfuscated,

[2:01:45] Bob Dobbs: or all of them.

[2:01:45] Bob Dobbs: So I think it's good that ION includes the whole spectrum.

[2:01:49] Bob Dobbs: You have to.

[2:01:50] Bob Dobbs: You can't escape the contradictions that are implied or the cul-de-sac.

[2:01:56] Bob Dobbs: But then he says,

[2:01:56] Bob Dobbs: so it is not.

[2:01:58] Bob Dobbs: Now he's saying the tech body has become a anti-environment around the old,

[2:02:04] Bob Dobbs: and that shifts the frequency,

[2:02:06] Bob Dobbs: the emotion,

[2:02:07] Bob Dobbs: anti-environment.

[2:02:08] Bob Dobbs: That something,

[2:02:09] Bob Dobbs: it's a little earthquake,

[2:02:11] Bob Dobbs: and that's what I think he's saying.

[2:02:12] Bob Dobbs: A anti-environment moves the ratio of senses or the ratio of memes in ourselves or among the media.

[2:02:21] Bob Dobbs: So I think that's accurate.

[2:02:22] Bob Dobbs: This has all been laid out in such a way that now the tech body has captured that.

[2:02:27] Bob Dobbs: And that means,

[2:02:28] Bob Dobbs: and it's exactly as I've learned,

[2:02:30] Bob Dobbs: this is going to be explained more and more through the next months.

[2:02:34] Bob Dobbs: When I'm talking to ION and getting more about the tech body,

[2:02:36] Bob Dobbs: I understand from my perspective,

[2:02:38] Bob Dobbs: which I know a little bit more about it than you,

[2:02:40] Bob Dobbs: how the tech body has captured us and captured the old Android Meme environment,

[2:02:45] Bob Dobbs: and that's a change.

[2:02:47] Bob Dobbs: That's a moving that's happened.

[2:02:50] Bob Dobbs: And so it has not been advocated.

[2:02:53] Bob Dobbs: So whether something's clear or not may be not the issue anymore.

[2:02:58] Bob Dobbs: It's the fact that it's moved to a new level,

[2:03:01] Bob Dobbs: and that nobody sees.

[2:03:04] Bob Dobbs: So the content's not obfuscated.

[2:03:07] Bob Dobbs: Everybody sees we're in shit now,

[2:03:09] Bob Dobbs: in many ways,

[2:03:11] Bob Dobbs: but it's been moved to a worse,

[2:03:14] Bob Dobbs: more vulnerable and likely to make failure situation.

[2:03:22] Bob Dobbs: Because we have no awareness of what it's been moved to into the tech body.

[2:03:27] Bob Dobbs: And when I describe the tech body,

[2:03:29] Bob Dobbs: you'll be shocked if you get it.

[2:03:31] Bob Dobbs: You won't believe it.

[2:03:33] Bob Dobbs: But just to wrap up,

[2:03:34] Bob Dobbs: the tech body is behind your eyes,

[2:03:37] Bob Dobbs: it's in your skull,

[2:03:39] Bob Dobbs: and it's in the astral body around you.

[2:03:42] Bob Dobbs: It's got everything you experience on the planet modulated.

[2:03:47] Bob Dobbs: It modulates what you know.

[2:03:50] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[2:03:50] Bob Dobbs: that means we've been collectively possessed by something.

[2:03:54] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[2:03:54] Bob Dobbs: that's pretty dramatic.

[2:03:56] Bob Dobbs: How are you going to communicate to that,

[2:03:58] Bob Dobbs: you know?

[2:03:58] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:03:59] Cameron McEwen: that's right.

[2:04:00] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[2:04:01] Cameron McEwen: To me,

[2:04:01] Cameron McEwen: what's interesting is that...

[2:04:03] Cameron McEwen: On the one hand,

[2:04:05] Cameron McEwen: it retraces what

[2:04:09] Cameron McEwen: Nietzsche already knew in the

[2:04:13] Cameron McEwen: 1870s and 1880s.

[2:04:15] Cameron McEwen: But on the other hand,

[2:04:18] Cameron McEwen: it's saying,

[2:04:21] Cameron McEwen: so it has not been obfuscated,

[2:04:24] Cameron McEwen: it's just been moved.

[2:04:25] Cameron McEwen: That is to say that the fog in which...

[2:04:32] Bob Dobbs: It's somewhere else.

[2:04:34] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:04:34] Cameron McEwen: that's right.

[2:04:37] Cameron McEwen: There's a possible reframing going on here.

[2:04:42] Cameron McEwen: It's been moved from one frame.

[2:04:46] Cameron McEwen: It wasn't even a frame because it was nothing.

[2:04:49] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:04:50] Cameron McEwen: Nef,

[2:04:51] Cameron McEwen: right?

[2:04:51] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:04:52] Cameron McEwen: It's been reframed in which it may be an identifiable something.

[2:04:59] Cameron McEwen: And so that relates.

[2:05:01] Cameron McEwen: to the phrase,

[2:05:02] Cameron McEwen: this is the way to go,

[2:05:07] Cameron McEwen: through a movement like that,

[2:05:09] Cameron McEwen: through a reframing,

[2:05:10] Cameron McEwen: a re-imaging,

[2:05:11] Cameron McEwen: a retracing,

[2:05:14] Cameron McEwen: it may be possible to get out of this thing that,

[2:05:19] Cameron McEwen: as you were just saying,

[2:05:21] Cameron McEwen: is as inward as possible and also as outward as possible.

[2:05:29] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:05:29] Bob Dobbs: So...

[2:05:30] Bob Dobbs: It's the old thing,

[2:05:31] Bob Dobbs: the ground has shifted and the content is clearer,

[2:05:34] Bob Dobbs: because it's obsolete.

[2:05:36] Bob Dobbs: There's that simple point,

[2:05:38] Bob Dobbs: but maybe it has not been obfuscated.

[2:05:42] Bob Dobbs: That means the clarity that everybody sees everything today.

[2:05:47] Bob Dobbs: You don't have to look at much media,

[2:05:48] Bob Dobbs: because it was like for four years just about one guy,

[2:05:51] Bob Dobbs: Trump.

[2:05:52] Bob Dobbs: And so everybody knew what the topic was,

[2:05:54] Bob Dobbs: and then everybody had their noise about it.

[2:05:57] Bob Dobbs: So it's clear,

[2:05:58] Bob Dobbs: it's not been obfuscated.

[2:05:59] Bob Dobbs: But we're not realizing something has possessed us,

[2:06:07] Bob Dobbs: deeply possessed us,

[2:06:08] Bob Dobbs: and that who would believe that as they go about their day,

[2:06:13] Bob Dobbs: that no matter what they look at,

[2:06:15] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[2:06:16] Bob Dobbs: in a newspaper box on the sidewalk,

[2:06:19] Bob Dobbs: or somebody's smartphone blaring something,

[2:06:22] Bob Dobbs: or the store and the videos in the store,

[2:06:24] Bob Dobbs: all these things,

[2:06:25] Bob Dobbs: that you are totally programmed,

[2:06:27] Bob Dobbs: controlled,

[2:06:28] Bob Dobbs: and insane.

[2:06:29] Bob Dobbs: something and you're not autonomous from that but remember

[2:06:35] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan said that

[2:06:38] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[2:06:38] Cameron McEwen: Someone said that your identity,

[2:06:41] Cameron McEwen: your values,

[2:06:43] Cameron McEwen: everything you say,

[2:06:44] Cameron McEwen: everything you want to do are the result of hidden dominance.

[2:06:51] Cameron McEwen: And the reason that communication is so difficult is that people don't want to recognize that their

[2:07:05] Cameron McEwen: identity and their values.

[2:07:07] Cameron McEwen: are not objective.

[2:07:09] Cameron McEwen: They're conditions.

[2:07:11] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[2:07:12] Cameron McEwen: They're projections.

[2:07:13] Bob Dobbs: They're projections and they're conditions.

[2:07:15] Bob Dobbs: And his statement about we can't know what's going on,

[2:07:18] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[2:07:18] Bob Dobbs: the end of laws immediate,

[2:07:19] Bob Dobbs: it's unchartable and uncharted.

[2:07:23] Bob Dobbs: That's all one can say with your mouth or book.

[2:07:27] Bob Dobbs: And that is what the point is.

[2:07:29] Bob Dobbs: That's what you should say.

[2:07:30] Bob Dobbs: Everybody should be saying that.

[2:07:34] Bob Dobbs: So,

[2:07:34] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[2:07:34] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan is the last commentator.

[2:07:37] Bob Dobbs: of the situation.

[2:07:41] Bob Dobbs: Like maybe you have 10 doctors go in and check out the patient.

[2:07:44] Bob Dobbs: Each one comes out,

[2:07:45] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[2:07:46] Bob Dobbs: autopsy shows he's dead.

[2:07:48] Bob Dobbs: The next guy comes out,

[2:07:50] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[2:07:50] Bob Dobbs: I agree with that.

[2:07:51] Bob Dobbs: Then the fifth guy,

[2:07:52] Bob Dobbs: he comes out,

[2:07:54] Bob Dobbs: he's senior management,

[2:07:55] Bob Dobbs: and he says,

[2:07:55] Bob Dobbs: yes,

[2:07:55] Bob Dobbs: we have to agree with the previous four guys.

[2:07:57] Bob Dobbs: This guy is dead.

[2:08:02] Bob Dobbs: So tremendous.

[2:08:04] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:08:04] Bob Dobbs: no,

[2:08:04] Bob Dobbs: all his...

[2:08:06] Bob Dobbs: Can you see how crazy,

[2:08:07] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[2:08:10] Bob Dobbs: a

[2:08:11] Bob Dobbs: Frank Rich or whatever critic,

[2:08:13] Bob Dobbs: Kenneth Tynan,

[2:08:14] Bob Dobbs: he wrote a real snarky thing about McLuhan in the late 60s.

[2:08:18] Bob Dobbs: But these New York critics,

[2:08:19] Bob Dobbs: these Nevitt,

[2:08:20] Bob Dobbs: the nabobs,

[2:08:22] Bob Dobbs: they were shocked that a man would act like McLuhan,

[2:08:26] Bob Dobbs: who would say,

[2:08:26] Bob Dobbs: we're in big fucking trouble here.

[2:08:29] Bob Dobbs: No more Christianity for you guys,

[2:08:31] Bob Dobbs: you know.

[2:08:32] Bob Dobbs: This is,

[2:08:34] Bob Dobbs: it looked quite alarmist.

[2:08:35] Bob Dobbs: He was blamed for being the guy who started the fire.

[2:08:39] Bob Dobbs: See,

[2:08:39] Bob Dobbs: it's such a great drama he acted out.

[2:08:42] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:08:43] Cameron McEwen: he was saying to their faces that being a New York columnist or a New York

[2:08:50] Cameron McEwen: TV guy is stupid.

[2:08:52] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:08:54] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[2:08:55] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[2:08:56] Cameron McEwen: How are they going to react to that?

[2:08:58] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[2:08:59] Cameron McEwen: Usually they just said,

[2:09:01] Cameron McEwen: oh,

[2:09:01] Cameron McEwen: I don't understand.

[2:09:06] Cameron McEwen: And so McLuhan is sitting there saying,

[2:09:08] Cameron McEwen: what don't you understand?

[2:09:09] Cameron McEwen: I'm saying you're stupid.

[2:09:11] Cameron McEwen: You don't know what's going on.

[2:09:15] Cameron McEwen: Your values,

[2:09:16] Cameron McEwen: your identity are an effect.

[2:09:18] Cameron McEwen: They're not a cause.

[2:09:21] Cameron McEwen: What do you not understand here?

[2:09:22] Cameron McEwen: Then the guy would say,

[2:09:23] Cameron McEwen: oh,

[2:09:24] Cameron McEwen: I don't get you.

[2:09:26] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[2:09:27] Bob Dobbs: you just can't believe it.

[2:09:29] Bob Dobbs: I'm protected by your public incredulity,

[2:09:31] Bob Dobbs: and he's like.

[2:09:32] Bob Dobbs: I think of that movie Silence of the Lambs.

[2:09:34] Bob Dobbs: You're talking to a serial murderer named Marshall McLuhan who's telling you what he did and what's going to happen to you because you don't see what he had done.

[2:09:47] Bob Dobbs: And then I think he Wright to Prince Bernard and says,

[2:09:50] Bob Dobbs: I expected culture of 19th century people,

[2:09:53] Bob Dobbs: and I got the stupidest people on the planet who actually think they're in charge.

[2:09:57] Bob Dobbs: Remember that letter?

[2:09:59] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[2:09:59] Cameron McEwen: sure,

[2:10:00] Cameron McEwen: sure.

[2:10:01] Cameron McEwen: So that could be written today,

[2:10:03] Cameron McEwen: and that's like my island example.

[2:10:06] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[2:10:08] Cameron McEwen: They're going to change the fertilizer a little bit.

[2:10:13] Bob Dobbs: But it's obvious in human nature,

[2:10:15] Bob Dobbs: some guy comes in and claims they know it all,

[2:10:17] Bob Dobbs: and knows you're stupid,

[2:10:18] Bob Dobbs: and tells you it's very rude and not acceptable,

[2:10:22] Bob Dobbs: right?

[2:10:23] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan was being rude,

[2:10:24] Bob Dobbs: which he would call Menippean.

[2:10:26] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[2:10:27] Bob Dobbs: one day...

[2:10:28] Bob Dobbs: We were walking in front of the Art Gallery of Ontario,

[2:10:30] Bob Dobbs: and some bum was sitting there right at the entrance in the way of everybody,

[2:10:35] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[2:10:35] Bob Dobbs: being homeless and dirty.

[2:10:37] Bob Dobbs: And Eric says,

[2:10:38] Bob Dobbs: that's a Menippean satirist.

[2:10:40] Bob Dobbs: Eric McCloughan says,

[2:10:41] Bob Dobbs: there's a Menippean satirist.

[2:10:42] Bob Dobbs: That's McCloughan sitting there in the doorway of the entrance and blocking it,

[2:10:47] Bob Dobbs: right?

[2:10:49] Bob Dobbs: It's risky to do that.

[2:10:54] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:10:54] Cameron McEwen: so listen,

[2:10:55] Cameron McEwen: I think we should wrap it up.

[2:10:57] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:10:57] Bob Dobbs: I think we got some ecstasies of insight there.

[2:11:01] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:11:01] Cameron McEwen: it's an important point that we can take up next week because of this stuff that the tech body has captured that.

[2:11:11] Cameron McEwen: And the next paragraph has the phrase,

[2:11:17] Cameron McEwen: capture the Android Meme.

[2:11:20] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:11:20] Bob Dobbs: that's how serious it is.

[2:11:22] Bob Dobbs: But I like...

[2:11:23] Bob Dobbs: I like the way,

[2:11:24] Bob Dobbs: yes,

[2:11:24] Bob Dobbs: he would say to Mike Wallace and these people he'd interview,

[2:11:27] Bob Dobbs: he says,

[2:11:27] Bob Dobbs: what do you mean you can't understand me?

[2:11:28] Bob Dobbs: This is obvious.

[2:11:29] Bob Dobbs: I'm telling you that you're stupid,

[2:11:32] Bob Dobbs: and they're not going to believe it.

[2:11:36] Bob Dobbs: That's why McClellan,

[2:11:37] Bob Dobbs: you see him with

[2:11:38] Bob Dobbs: Muggeridge and Mailer and 68 on that CBC thing,

[2:11:41] Bob Dobbs: he's got a twinkle in his eye.

[2:11:43] Bob Dobbs: He knows we're all idiots,

[2:11:44] Bob Dobbs: right?

[2:11:44] Bob Dobbs: And he knows what he could say,

[2:11:46] Bob Dobbs: and he doesn't know if he's going to say it.

[2:11:49] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:11:49] Cameron McEwen: well.

[2:11:51] Cameron McEwen: Especially his stuff with Mailer is very revealing,

[2:11:57] Cameron McEwen: very funny.

[2:11:58] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:11:59] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[2:12:00] Bob Dobbs: very good.

[2:12:01] Bob Dobbs: Thanks a lot,

[2:12:01] Bob Dobbs: Ewen Cameron.

[2:12:02] Bob Dobbs: I'll talk to you next week.

[2:12:04] Cameron McEwen: Okay,

[2:12:04] Cameron McEwen: Bob.

[2:12:04] Cameron McEwen: Thank you.

[2:12:05] Bob Dobbs: You're welcome.

[2:12:06] Bob Dobbs: Bye.