Dialogue 23 — Transcript

[00:02] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[00:03] Bob Dobbs: Ewen Cameron and Bob are back with our

[00:06] Bob Dobbs: 23rd episode,

[00:08] Bob Dobbs: and it's April 22nd,

[00:09] Bob Dobbs: 2021.

[00:13] Bob Dobbs: So we're doing the end of the book,

[00:15] Bob Dobbs: and we've been talking to the tech body,

[00:19] Bob Dobbs: which has transcribed the interview I did.

[00:23] Bob Dobbs: So we got cut off last week.

[00:26] Bob Dobbs: We had a great talk.

[00:28] Bob Dobbs: Fortunately,

[00:29] Bob Dobbs: it didn't get recorded.

[00:31] Bob Dobbs: We will repeat what we discussed,

[00:34] Bob Dobbs: and I don't know if we might even have whole different ideas than what we said last week.

[00:40] Bob Dobbs: So,

[00:41] Bob Dobbs: when it cuts off at the

[00:43] Bob Dobbs: 22-minute mark in the recording that is in the public,

[00:47] Bob Dobbs: I'm explaining how McLuhan would flip his words,

[00:51] Bob Dobbs: or he'd say something about,

[00:53] Bob Dobbs: say,

[00:53] Bob Dobbs: cliché to archetype,

[00:55] Bob Dobbs: and you didn't know this,

[00:57] Bob Dobbs: he'd go,

[00:58] Bob Dobbs: I may have got that backwards.

[01:00] Bob Dobbs: And you might have noticed he got it backwards,

[01:01] Bob Dobbs: but the funny thing is he goes,

[01:03] Bob Dobbs: oh,

[01:03] Bob Dobbs: I may have got that backwards.

[01:05] Bob Dobbs: And he didn't seem to care that he got it backwards.

[01:10] Bob Dobbs: He does say insidious classroom.

[01:13] Bob Dobbs: One sentence in there he says,

[01:15] Bob Dobbs: you got cliché to archetype,

[01:18] Bob Dobbs: or cliché to archetype,

[01:20] Bob Dobbs: or archetype is cliché.

[01:22] Bob Dobbs: Maybe he said,

[01:23] Bob Dobbs: cliché becomes archetype,

[01:24] Bob Dobbs: or archetype becomes cliché,

[01:27] Bob Dobbs: and he seemed to be indifferent.

[01:30] Bob Dobbs: to the way they go.

[01:33] Cameron McEwen: I wouldn't say,

[01:34] Cameron McEwen: myself,

[01:35] Cameron McEwen: I wouldn't say indifferent,

[01:37] Cameron McEwen: unless the word were used in a technical sense.

[01:41] Cameron McEwen: I'd say that for him,

[01:44] Cameron McEwen: the reversibility of cliché and archetype is like the reversibility of figure and ground.

[01:50] Cameron McEwen: That is to say,

[01:51] Cameron McEwen: it's essential.

[01:54] Cameron McEwen: It's something fundamental.

[01:56] Cameron McEwen: It's something that can't be avoided.

[01:59] Cameron McEwen: and needs to be kept in mind whenever we talk about anything,

[02:06] Cameron McEwen: because this,

[02:08] Cameron McEwen: what might be called this power,

[02:11] Cameron McEwen: this dynamic power of reversal,

[02:15] Cameron McEwen: is built into what humans are.

[02:22] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[02:22] Bob Dobbs: I agree with that,

[02:23] Bob Dobbs: and understanding that,

[02:25] Bob Dobbs: well...

[02:26] Bob Dobbs: Help the reader,

[02:27] Bob Dobbs: Finnegans Wake,

[02:27] Bob Dobbs: understand why the twins flip into the sister and the twins themselves flip into each other.

[02:35] Bob Dobbs: There's a lot of flipping going on with the family members.

[02:40] Bob Dobbs: So

[02:41] Bob Dobbs: I see McLuhan formalize that in his Cliché to archetype Dialectic,

[02:46] Bob Dobbs: in his book from Cliché to archetype.

[02:49] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[02:49] Cameron McEwen: Flipping in Finnegans Wake,

[02:51] Cameron McEwen: flipping not only between family members,

[02:54] Cameron McEwen: Between family members anti-environment,

[02:58] Cameron McEwen: for example.

[02:59] Bob Dobbs: And technology.

[03:01] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[03:02] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.

[03:04] Bob Dobbs: Which is where some people say we live now.

[03:08] Bob Dobbs: We live like that.

[03:10] Bob Dobbs: The more avant-garde thinkers talk.

[03:16] Cameron McEwen: I think lots and lots of people feel like we're lost in a kind of...

[03:24] Cameron McEwen: fog of those kinds of reversals.

[03:27] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[03:29] Cameron McEwen: We live in a society in which orientation has been lost,

[03:34] Cameron McEwen: and that's the cul-de-sac,

[03:38] Cameron McEwen: which

[03:39] Cameron McEwen: Nietzsche predicted,

[03:41] Cameron McEwen: foresaw,

[03:43] Cameron McEwen: investigated in the

[03:46] Cameron McEwen: 1870s and 1880s,

[03:46] Cameron McEwen: so 150 years ago.

[03:51] Cameron McEwen: And here we are.

[03:54] Cameron McEwen: living through what he foresaw,

[03:58] Cameron McEwen: including wars of unprecedented devastation.

[04:06] Bob Dobbs: Right,

[04:07] Bob Dobbs: and would you agree,

[04:08] Bob Dobbs: as I try to show in my Tiny Note chart,

[04:11] Bob Dobbs: this holeopathic process.

[04:13] Bob Dobbs: So

[04:13] Bob Dobbs: Nietzsche the first to see the electric effect,

[04:16] Bob Dobbs: and then the vortices,

[04:18] Bob Dobbs: they see it a little later with a little more media.

[04:22] Bob Dobbs: And then maybe you get Innis and McLuhan generation,

[04:26] Bob Dobbs: and they deal with the electric nothing in a deeper way,

[04:32] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[04:32] Bob Dobbs: overlaying and adding to Nietzsche.

[04:36] Bob Dobbs: And then we got into the digital world where everybody had to deal with it,

[04:42] Bob Dobbs: whether they could think of it or not.

[04:45] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?

[04:45] Cameron McEwen: I think that's right,

[04:46] Cameron McEwen: but I'm not so sure about the linearity of that.

[04:51] Cameron McEwen: For example,

[04:53] Cameron McEwen: When you come to Ennis and

[04:55] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan,

[04:57] Cameron McEwen: I don't think they deepen anything that

[05:01] Cameron McEwen: Nietzsche or,

[05:03] Cameron McEwen: say,

[05:03] Cameron McEwen: Lewis saw.

[05:05] Cameron McEwen: What they're trying to do is they're trying to see if there's some sort of exit to the cul-de-sac.

[05:11] Cameron McEwen: And so they're going back to the beginning,

[05:18] Cameron McEwen: you could say,

[05:19] Cameron McEwen: and trying to see where things went wrong.

[05:23] Cameron McEwen: where things might go right.

[05:27] Cameron McEwen: So

[05:28] Cameron McEwen: I would see somebody like Lewis as understanding what Nietzsche was saying and correlating that with technology in

[05:43] Cameron McEwen: a way that

[05:45] Cameron McEwen: Nietzsche had not,

[05:47] Cameron McEwen: and thereby presenting a problem.

[05:53] Cameron McEwen: to people that demanded solution of some sort.

[06:00] Cameron McEwen: If the problems Nietzsche foresaw have been technologized,

[06:08] Cameron McEwen: which I guess is what you would call the Android Meme phase,

[06:15] Cameron McEwen: then how we get out of that is a very,

[06:20] Cameron McEwen: very difficult problem because

[06:22] Cameron McEwen: The exit can't be mechanical because the mechanical is the problem.

[06:28] Cameron McEwen: And then the question is,

[06:30] Cameron McEwen: well,

[06:30] Cameron McEwen: how do you do something aside from the mechanical?

[06:34] Cameron McEwen: What isn't mechanical?

[06:37] Cameron McEwen: And that's where I would see

[06:40] Cameron McEwen: Innis and McLuhan coming in and trying to think through that problem.

[06:45] Bob Dobbs: Great points.

[06:49] Bob Dobbs: On my chart,

[06:50] Bob Dobbs: I show...

[06:51] Bob Dobbs: You see the linearity,

[06:52] Bob Dobbs: which is an effect of the piece of paper or the charts on,

[06:56] Bob Dobbs: and I don't mean linearity completely.

[06:59] Bob Dobbs: I tried to show in the right-hand column the different sensory ratios of the different technological contexts from

[07:08] Bob Dobbs: 1900 to 2000.

[07:14] Bob Dobbs: So I'd say,

[07:14] Bob Dobbs: yes,

[07:15] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan,

[07:16] Bob Dobbs: same problem as

[07:17] Bob Dobbs: Innis, but it had different technological textures.

[07:21] Bob Dobbs: which maybe evoked a different poetry,

[07:22] Bob Dobbs: a different language.

[07:27] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[07:28] Cameron McEwen: I agree with that.

[07:30] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[07:30] Cameron McEwen: if you think of the difference between a poem and a fur trade post,

[07:40] Cameron McEwen: those are very,

[07:41] Cameron McEwen: very different things,

[07:44] Cameron McEwen: but they are both complicated in their own ways.

[07:51] Cameron McEwen: They are both attempts to establish a node and to conceptualize how things come into the node and go out of the node.

[08:05] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[08:06] Bob Dobbs: in the,

[08:08] Bob Dobbs: what is it,

[08:10] Bob Dobbs: the medium and the light?

[08:11] Bob Dobbs: Eric's collection of

[08:13] Bob Dobbs: Marshall's talking about religion?

[08:15] Bob Dobbs: What's that called?

[08:16] Bob Dobbs: The medium and the light.

[08:19] Bob Dobbs: There's a...

[08:20] Bob Dobbs: a talk he gave in 59 to the Brazilian fellow teachers at St.

[08:27] Bob Dobbs: Michael's.

[08:28] Bob Dobbs: And at the end,

[08:29] Bob Dobbs: he,

[08:30] Bob Dobbs: and I don't know,

[08:31] Bob Dobbs: we may have talked about this and recorded it.

[08:34] Bob Dobbs: At the end,

[08:34] Bob Dobbs: he talks about how Lewis was cool in a time where there was Protestant fury in the majority.

[08:41] Bob Dobbs: He didn't put on enough fury,

[08:43] Bob Dobbs: so he didn't get taken up.

[08:46] Bob Dobbs: But McLuhan realized that

[08:49] Bob Dobbs: Lewis is cool.

[08:50] Bob Dobbs: stance was more appropriate for the TV age.

[08:53] Bob Dobbs: So he did Lewis without the moral stuff at the right time.

[09:01] Bob Dobbs: And he says that.

[09:02] Bob Dobbs: It's pretty interesting.

[09:03] Bob Dobbs: Do you recall that we talked about that?

[09:06] Cameron McEwen: I don't know that we talked about that.

[09:09] Cameron McEwen: I certainly recall the talk,

[09:12] Cameron McEwen: and I recall that

[09:15] Cameron McEwen: Lewis plays a part in it.

[09:18] Cameron McEwen: I would say that um

[09:20] Cameron McEwen: What this relates to is something else that we've talked about,

[09:24] Cameron McEwen: and that is the vertical and horizontal modes.

[09:31] Cameron McEwen: And

[09:33] Cameron McEwen: I think what McLuhan might be saying there is that

[09:40] Cameron McEwen: Lewis's insight had to be taken out of a sort of a vertical bias.

[09:50] Cameron McEwen: and allowed

[09:52] Cameron McEwen: to have the multi-directionality that television fosters.

[10:00] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[10:00] Bob Dobbs: horizontal bias.

[10:03] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[10:03] Cameron McEwen: well,

[10:05] Cameron McEwen: or both vertical and horizontal together.

[10:08] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[10:10] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[10:10] Bob Dobbs: so the next section,

[10:14] Bob Dobbs: I bring up Ferry Lindt.

[10:15] Bob Dobbs: In a quick summary,

[10:19] Bob Dobbs: I was...

[10:21] Bob Dobbs: Involved with Mae Brussell in in 83.

[10:25] Bob Dobbs: She was a amateur journalist read 10 newspapers a day and

[10:31] Bob Dobbs: Was very good at connecting the dots about stories and people and Because she read so many papers and the same article would be written differently.

[10:42] Bob Dobbs: She'd noticed different things and Could know make connect people.

[10:47] Bob Dobbs: Oh this guy was doing that but he actually had something to do with that

[10:50] Bob Dobbs: story over there because he knew this guy but you had to read a lot of papers to get that information so she had a radio show and she'd broadcast her weekly patterns well larry flint he had been shot in 78 in

[11:06] Bob Dobbs: agony for five years uh paralyzed i think uh from the waist down so he a new surgery was offered to him so he could uh stop having I think.

[11:20] Bob Dobbs: pain and but he would lose his sexual function so he did that and now that he was out of pain he could take his millions and he decided to compete with time magazine so he started a magazine called the rebel and

[11:37] Bob Dobbs: that got him into a lot of trouble they got eight issues out starting in november

[11:42] Bob Dobbs: 22nd they did the jfk assassination uh what's that uh

[11:49] Bob Dobbs: 20 years later,

[11:51] Bob Dobbs: and he had gotten shot by people who didn't want him putting out

[11:57] Bob Dobbs: Kennedy assassination information in the late

[12:00] Bob Dobbs: 70s in,

[12:01] Bob Dobbs: I think,

[12:02] Bob Dobbs: the Los Angeles Free Press.

[12:04] Bob Dobbs: That's what he had bought.

[12:09] Bob Dobbs: But he was determined to carry on when he was able to,

[12:13] Bob Dobbs: and May Russell was an expert in all that stuff,

[12:14] Bob Dobbs: so he was going to make May the editor after he met May,

[12:18] Bob Dobbs: and that was through...

[12:19] Bob Dobbs: through the KAL 007 flight,

[12:23] Bob Dobbs: the downing of that flight.

[12:24] Bob Dobbs: And the question was,

[12:25] Bob Dobbs: did Russia do it or not?

[12:27] Bob Dobbs: And that was September 83.

[12:32] Bob Dobbs: So she wrote him a letter of what she thought was going on about it.

[12:36] Bob Dobbs: He was impressed,

[12:37] Bob Dobbs: so he got in touch with her.

[12:38] Bob Dobbs: Then he decided to make her editor.

[12:40] Bob Dobbs: But other people jumped into the magazine,

[12:45] Bob Dobbs: and they lobbied to not have made the editor.

[12:48] Bob Dobbs: So then she was a witness of everything that went on after that.

[12:53] Bob Dobbs: As Flint got in trouble with the authorities,

[12:55] Bob Dobbs: ended up being put in a rigorous mind control hospital,

[13:00] Bob Dobbs: people would say.

[13:02] Bob Dobbs: They would do a lot of stuff to the person Innis prison hospital.

[13:11] Bob Dobbs: So

[13:12] Bob Dobbs: I learned a lot about the story as it unfolded because

[13:16] Bob Dobbs: Larry kept talking to me.

[13:18] Bob Dobbs: And she'd update us on her tapes.

[13:20] Bob Dobbs: And out of that,

[13:21] Bob Dobbs: a play came out of it.

[13:23] Bob Dobbs: I made this play called Who's Forgotten Furry Lint?

[13:27] Bob Dobbs: So that's Larry Flint becomes Furry Lint.

[13:30] Bob Dobbs: And the metaphor was,

[13:31] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[13:31] Bob Dobbs: on the fabric of American society,

[13:35] Bob Dobbs: you had some lint caused by a Malcolm X or Martin Luther King.

[13:40] Bob Dobbs: Some individual rises up out of the discarnate mob and starts getting attention.

[13:47] Bob Dobbs: Tim Leary would be another example.

[13:50] Bob Dobbs: And they would be quickly suppressed,

[13:52] Bob Dobbs: kicked out,

[13:53] Bob Dobbs: killed,

[13:53] Bob Dobbs: whatever.

[13:54] Bob Dobbs: So the piece of lint was just brushed off the fabric.

[13:59] Bob Dobbs: So that was my metaphor for what happened to all these different people.

[14:03] Bob Dobbs: The latest being Larry Flint.

[14:06] Bob Dobbs: So

[14:07] Bob Dobbs: I suddenly said,

[14:09] Bob Dobbs: what?

[14:09] Cameron McEwen: If we wanted to bring that up to date,

[14:12] Cameron McEwen: we could say that's what's happening now to whole countries.

[14:15] Cameron McEwen: or whole civilizations.

[14:17] Bob Dobbs: Yep,

[14:18] Cameron McEwen: that's exactly it.

[14:20] Cameron McEwen: That's crazy.

[14:21] Bob Dobbs: I know.

[14:23] Cameron McEwen: Tell me this,

[14:23] Cameron McEwen: Bob,

[14:24] Cameron McEwen: before you get too far into the story,

[14:26] Cameron McEwen: how did you meet

[14:28] Cameron McEwen: Mae Brussell?

[14:29] Bob Dobbs: In 1980,

[14:34] Bob Dobbs: living in Toronto,

[14:38] Bob Dobbs: I saw a magazine,

[14:41] Bob Dobbs: We,

[14:41] Bob Dobbs: O-U-I.

[14:42] Bob Dobbs: Do you remember that magazine?

[14:44] Cameron McEwen: Vaguely,

[14:44] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[14:45] Bob Dobbs: It was sort of like those B magazines,

[14:48] Bob Dobbs: like gallery,

[14:49] Bob Dobbs: men's magazines,

[14:51] Bob Dobbs: not Playboy level.

[14:53] Bob Dobbs: and they would have a lot of muckraking articles.

[14:56] Bob Dobbs: So I saw an article about her work,

[14:59] Bob Dobbs: and I had not heard of her,

[15:01] Bob Dobbs: and I was very impressed,

[15:02] Bob Dobbs: so I called her up,

[15:04] Bob Dobbs: and she was really,

[15:06] Bob Dobbs: what do you call it,

[15:07] Bob Dobbs: amiable,

[15:08] Bob Dobbs: a lot of fun,

[15:10] Bob Dobbs: dealt with very serious topics,

[15:11] Bob Dobbs: or what she thought was really serious,

[15:13] Bob Dobbs: and

[15:15] Bob Dobbs: I became a phone buddy and sent her information that helped her crack a few stories.

[15:22] Bob Dobbs: One of them was the book by

[15:25] Bob Dobbs: Peter Drucker.

[15:26] Bob Dobbs: In

[15:26] Bob Dobbs: 1979, he did a book on all the neat people he had known,

[15:33] Bob Dobbs: which included

[15:35] Bob Dobbs: Marshall McLuhan and Bucky Fuller.

[15:37] Bob Dobbs: So he has an essay on both of them in one essay.

[15:41] Bob Dobbs: And he did one on Fritz Senn Kramer,

[15:43] Bob Dobbs: a very suspicious character,

[15:45] Bob Dobbs: who ended up running the Pentagon's planning level.

[15:51] Bob Dobbs: He was the big mind from Korea on and up until the 80s.

[15:59] Cameron McEwen: There was something about him in the news lately.

[16:02] Cameron McEwen: I forget what it was,

[16:03] Cameron McEwen: but

[16:04] Cameron McEwen: I remember seeing references to him.

[16:10] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[16:10] Bob Dobbs: he created

[16:12] Bob Dobbs: Henry Kissinger.

[16:14] Bob Dobbs: He mentored Henry Kissinger,

[16:15] Bob Dobbs: and he mentored Al Haig.

[16:17] Bob Dobbs: He had a big influence.

[16:20] Bob Dobbs: And,

[16:22] Bob Dobbs: but he was a Nazi who was tried at Nuremberg and got off,

[16:29] Bob Dobbs: sort of,

[16:30] Bob Dobbs: and disappeared.

[16:32] Bob Dobbs: But he's already been in America.

[16:34] Bob Dobbs: It was a very complex story.

[16:36] Bob Dobbs: And

[16:37] Bob Dobbs: Peter Drucker was the guy who brought him over in the 30s.

[16:40] Bob Dobbs: They knew each other,

[16:40] Bob Dobbs: I think,

[16:41] Bob Dobbs: in Frankfurt and grew up together.

[16:44] Bob Dobbs: So it showed a part of Drucker.

[16:48] Bob Dobbs: He was part of the deep state,

[16:49] Bob Dobbs: maybe.

[16:50] Bob Dobbs: what we would say today.

[16:52] Bob Dobbs: And so he brought Kramer over,

[16:56] Bob Dobbs: and this article on Kramer,

[17:01] Bob Dobbs: May Brussel never would have come across it.

[17:04] Bob Dobbs: So I sent it to her,

[17:05] Bob Dobbs: and it gave her some clues,

[17:07] Bob Dobbs: and she did some more research,

[17:08] Bob Dobbs: and she finally put it all together and felt she proved it and sent a letter with her proof to every congressman.

[17:16] Bob Dobbs: That would be by 1985 or so.

[17:21] Bob Dobbs: And so I witnessed all that.

[17:24] Bob Dobbs: And she,

[17:28] Bob Dobbs: in 88,

[17:29] Bob Dobbs: Caroline decided in the fall of 88,

[17:32] Bob Dobbs: well,

[17:32] Bob Dobbs: we decided earlier in the year to take a trip,

[17:34] Bob Dobbs: a couple months trip around and visit all the people we've been interacting with.

[17:39] Bob Dobbs: And one of them was Mae Brussell.

[17:41] Bob Dobbs: Never met her,

[17:44] Bob Dobbs: but we were going to go meet her for once.

[17:45] Bob Dobbs: But before we got there,

[17:46] Bob Dobbs: she announced she had cancer.

[17:48] Bob Dobbs: And when we got there,

[17:49] Bob Dobbs: She was dying,

[17:51] Bob Dobbs: and about the third day we were there in Carmel,

[17:54] Bob Dobbs: California,

[17:56] Bob Dobbs: with Clint Eastwood,

[17:58] Bob Dobbs: the mayor of her town,

[18:00] Bob Dobbs: we went in and saw her,

[18:02] Bob Dobbs: and she died about an hour after we left.

[18:05] Bob Dobbs: So that was the last new acquaintance for me in person,

[18:11] Bob Dobbs: Carolyn and I.

[18:12] Bob Dobbs: So that was sad.

[18:13] Cameron McEwen: Do you think...

[18:15] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[18:16] Bob Dobbs: go ahead.

[18:18] Cameron McEwen: I was just going to ask...

[18:19] Cameron McEwen: about her cancer.

[18:20] Cameron McEwen: Do you think this was a natural happenstance or do you think it was a motivated happenstance?

[18:28] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[18:29] Bob Dobbs: a lot of people who took her audio letter thought she was poisoned and murdered and they could build up Cayce sort of and even a person,

[18:41] Bob Dobbs: a neighbor was who had been in Washington in the

[18:49] Bob Dobbs: Reagan administration,

[18:51] Bob Dobbs: she became a friend and showed great interest in May's work,

[18:56] Bob Dobbs: and many people were suspicious of her.

[18:59] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[18:59] Bob Dobbs: but I do it differently.

[19:01] Bob Dobbs: I go directly to May through a medium,

[19:05] Bob Dobbs: right?

[19:08] Bob Dobbs: And so

[19:09] Bob Dobbs: I had talked to McLuhan,

[19:12] Bob Dobbs: and so

[19:14] Bob Dobbs: I contacted May Brussel.

[19:17] Bob Dobbs: through the medium and asked her,

[19:19] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[19:19] Bob Dobbs: was she murdered?

[19:20] Bob Dobbs: She said no.

[19:21] Bob Dobbs: And she explained that because in her field she was up against journalists and people like Seymour Hersh were friends of hers and used her information,

[19:30] Bob Dobbs: she felt she didn't get enough attention because she was a woman.

[19:35] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[19:35] Bob Dobbs: she's of that generation,

[19:36] Bob Dobbs: born in 1922,

[19:38] Bob Dobbs: where they didn't get the benefits of women's liberation,

[19:44] Bob Dobbs: but they lived lives.

[19:45] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan would say,

[19:46] Bob Dobbs: technologically autonomous,

[19:48] Bob Dobbs: they had a lot of freedom compared to women in the 19th century,

[19:52] Bob Dobbs: but they weren't getting professional recognition.

[19:55] Bob Dobbs: So she felt,

[19:56] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[19:57] Bob Dobbs: pissed off about that,

[19:58] Bob Dobbs: and that registered in her lower regions of her body.

[20:04] Bob Dobbs: And so that's what she said.

[20:07] Bob Dobbs: That's from the astral plane or whatever.

[20:09] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[20:09] Bob Dobbs: what was interesting...

[20:13] Bob Dobbs: She died on October 3rd,

[20:15] Bob Dobbs: 88,

[20:17] Bob Dobbs: and

[20:18] Bob Dobbs: I had just started talking to McLuhan through the Evergreens.

[20:24] Bob Dobbs: And I would broadcast these things on CKLN in Toronto.

[20:27] Bob Dobbs: So after May died,

[20:29] Bob Dobbs: so say in 89,

[20:34] Bob Dobbs: I'm talking to McLuhan,

[20:35] Bob Dobbs: and I said,

[20:37] Bob Dobbs: did you ever meet over there,

[20:39] Bob Dobbs: wherever you are,

[20:40] Bob Dobbs: did you ever interact with May Brussel?

[20:43] Bob Dobbs: since I would be something that would connect you with her.

[20:48] Bob Dobbs: And Marshall said,

[20:48] Bob Dobbs: yes.

[20:49] Bob Dobbs: And I said,

[20:52] Bob Dobbs: what did you talk about?

[20:53] Bob Dobbs: And Marshall said,

[20:54] Bob Dobbs: that's Marshall in quotes,

[20:57] Bob Dobbs: said,

[20:58] Bob Dobbs: I congratulated her on the Kennedy assassination.

[21:01] Bob Dobbs: She was the closest to the facts.

[21:04] Bob Dobbs: So that was tremendous,

[21:06] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[21:07] Bob Dobbs: that McLuhan discussed the Kennedy assassination with her.

[21:11] Bob Dobbs: And I guess when you die,

[21:12] Bob Dobbs: you get to see these things clearer.

[21:16] Bob Dobbs: You see the human stage easier.

[21:18] Bob Dobbs: And so McLuhan saw what happened and then found out that Mae Brussell had said this stuff when she was alive.

[21:28] Bob Dobbs: He did not know her,

[21:30] Bob Dobbs: as far as I know,

[21:31] Bob Dobbs: when she was alive.

[21:32] Bob Dobbs: So that was a pretty neat thing.

[21:36] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[21:36] Bob Dobbs: hey,

[21:37] Bob Dobbs: you were the closest.

[21:39] Bob Dobbs: And I was the go-between between them.

[21:42] Bob Dobbs: It's because of McLuhan that I was interested in Drucker,

[21:46] Bob Dobbs: and then I found the Fritz Senn Kramer article.

[21:50] Cameron McEwen: But there's something wrong with the chronology of the

[21:54] Cameron McEwen: Fritz Senn Kramer thing.

[21:55] Cameron McEwen: You said that he came over in the

[21:58] Cameron McEwen: 30s through Drucker,

[22:00] Cameron McEwen: but if he came over in the

[22:01] Cameron McEwen: 30s, he wouldn't have been part of the

[22:03] Cameron McEwen: Nuremberg trials.

[22:05] Bob Dobbs: No,

[22:05] Bob Dobbs: the Nuremberg is in 1945.

[22:08] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[22:08] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[22:08] Bob Dobbs: See,

[22:08] Bob Dobbs: he came over before the war.

[22:12] Cameron McEwen: So they weren't trying anybody that was involved with the Nazis or with anything else.

[22:19] Cameron McEwen: No,

[22:19] Cameron McEwen: no.

[22:20] Bob Dobbs: Here's what you don't know.

[22:21] Bob Dobbs: Kramer was an old-fashioned guy,

[22:25] Bob Dobbs: came from an aristocratic family,

[22:28] Bob Dobbs: wore a monocle,

[22:29] Bob Dobbs: and he somehow ended up in the United States in 3940,

[22:35] Bob Dobbs: And then he registered as a...

[22:38] Bob Dobbs: soldier or whatever,

[22:40] Bob Dobbs: and in the boot camp in 43 or so,

[22:43] Bob Dobbs: he meets the young draftee,

[22:46] Bob Dobbs: Henry Kissinger,

[22:47] Bob Dobbs: and he takes Kissinger back to the Battle of the Bulge.

[22:51] Bob Dobbs: So the Battle of the Bulge happens in November,

[22:53] Bob Dobbs: December 44,

[22:55] Bob Dobbs: and then there's the Mamadi Massacre after the Battle of the Bulge,

[22:58] Bob Dobbs: a week or two after.

[22:59] Bob Dobbs: In the Mamadi Massacre,

[23:01] Bob Dobbs: a bunch of Nazis got American uniforms.

[23:06] Bob Dobbs: put them on,

[23:07] Bob Dobbs: and walked in among a bunch of Americans someplace,

[23:10] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[23:10] Bob Dobbs: in the battlefields there,

[23:12] Bob Dobbs: and mowed down a whole bunch of Americans.

[23:15] Bob Dobbs: And that is when

[23:19] Bob Dobbs: Kramer was brought in by what was called the CIC.

[23:26] Bob Dobbs: This was the gang that was looking for Nazi scientists,

[23:30] Bob Dobbs: important Nazis,

[23:32] Bob Dobbs: to bring back to America at the end of the war.

[23:35] Bob Dobbs: And that was...

[23:35] Bob Dobbs: called Project Paperclip.

[23:37] Bob Dobbs: You ever heard of that?

[23:40] Cameron McEwen: I think so,

[23:40] Cameron McEwen: but

[23:42] Cameron McEwen: I know what you're talking about in general.

[23:44] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[23:44] Cameron McEwen: for sure.

[23:45] Bob Dobbs: So Wernher von Braun and them were brought over,

[23:47] Bob Dobbs: the rocket scientists of Peenemunde for Hitler,

[23:50] Bob Dobbs: were brought over to start what became NASA in Huntsville.

[23:55] Bob Dobbs: They were brought to Huntsville first.

[23:58] Bob Dobbs: So that's a legend,

[23:59] Bob Dobbs: and they're talked about in the movie The Right Stuff.

[24:02] Bob Dobbs: I think Sam Shepard played a pilot in there.

[24:06] Bob Dobbs: So they're in there.

[24:07] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[24:09] Bob Dobbs: So,

[24:09] Bob Dobbs: but there was a lot more of bringing these people,

[24:14] Bob Dobbs: these Nazis,

[24:15] Bob Dobbs: into American society.

[24:17] Bob Dobbs: So

[24:17] Bob Dobbs: Kissinger was in on that secret.

[24:20] Bob Dobbs: And Fritz Senn Kramer was his boss.

[24:22] Bob Dobbs: And Kramer was important in that for the Americans.

[24:29] Bob Dobbs: But he was a German

[24:31] Bob Dobbs: Nazi. And he eventually got caught.

[24:35] Bob Dobbs: In some format,

[24:36] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[24:37] Bob Dobbs: it would only be a few months later when Nuremberg would be set up,

[24:41] Bob Dobbs: 46,

[24:42] Bob Dobbs: I guess.

[24:44] Bob Dobbs: The thing is that the story that Kramer brought him over,

[24:47] Bob Dobbs: and he was in a boot camp,

[24:49] Bob Dobbs: and then he met young Kissinger,

[24:50] Bob Dobbs: and he goes back over,

[24:52] Bob Dobbs: maybe all bullshit.

[24:54] Bob Dobbs: And he actually was working,

[24:57] Bob Dobbs: going back and forth.

[24:58] Bob Dobbs: Because remember the Rockefellers,

[25:00] Bob Dobbs: that level of American society,

[25:02] Bob Dobbs: they had deals going with IG Farben before World War II and the chemical dye company.

[25:09] Bob Dobbs: this.

[25:12] Bob Dobbs: So the Rockefeller factories in Germany were not bombed.

[25:17] Bob Dobbs: They were protected.

[25:18] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[25:18] Bob Dobbs: that became a scandal during the war,

[25:21] Bob Dobbs: and the Bush family was brought into that.

[25:24] Bob Dobbs: Bush's,

[25:25] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[25:26] Bob Dobbs: I guess,

[25:27] Bob Dobbs: Bush's father,

[25:28] Bob Dobbs: the guy who was president before the son,

[25:31] Bob Dobbs: his father was Prescott Bush.

[25:33] Bob Dobbs: He was part of the scandal.

[25:34] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[25:34] Cameron McEwen: it was the grandfather,

[25:35] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[25:36] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[25:36] Bob Dobbs: and it goes back to the grandfather.

[25:38] Bob Dobbs: And they were Wall Street people.

[25:39] Bob Dobbs: So they were actually part of the global village of the economy due to electric anti-environment the 20s.

[25:47] Bob Dobbs: But people didn't perceive that.

[25:48] Bob Dobbs: They couldn't see what we call globalists now,

[25:51] Bob Dobbs: and they were called internationalists back there.

[25:54] Bob Dobbs: Interesting,

[25:54] Bob Dobbs: Marshall talks about the internationalists in one of his

[25:58] Bob Dobbs: Manitoba student articles.

[26:02] Bob Dobbs: So anyway,

[26:03] Bob Dobbs: so the global village is happening,

[26:05] Bob Dobbs: and the elites can smuggle people around.

[26:09] Bob Dobbs: So May basically proved that there was this Kramer who then came over and ran the Pentagon,

[26:18] Bob Dobbs: and he was a guy worthy of being killed or hung at Nuremberg,

[26:22] Bob Dobbs: but he got let off.

[26:24] Bob Dobbs: So

[26:25] Bob Dobbs: I then checked with the Evergreens on that,

[26:28] Bob Dobbs: and the recording about my question to the Evergreens about Fritz Senn Kramer,

[26:33] Bob Dobbs: was he the Nazi,

[26:34] Bob Dobbs: was May also correct?

[26:36] Bob Dobbs: The Evergreens said she was.

[26:38] Bob Dobbs: And I played that,

[26:39] Bob Dobbs: and you can hear that recording on my website where the three-hour and

[26:45] Bob Dobbs: 45-minute play,

[26:46] Bob Dobbs: audio play,

[26:46] Bob Dobbs: Who's Forgotten Furry Lint is featured.

[26:49] Bob Dobbs: I feature recordings of McClellan and all kinds of people,

[26:54] Bob Dobbs: but some of it's made Brussels.

[26:57] Cameron McEwen: Is this on the

[26:59] Cameron McEwen: Purple site or on the ION and Bob site?

[27:02] Bob Dobbs: On the Purple site,

[27:04] Bob Dobbs: I'll show you,

[27:05] Bob Dobbs: it's an inventory.

[27:07] Bob Dobbs: The listing of the parts,

[27:09] Bob Dobbs: the schedule of it,

[27:10] Bob Dobbs: but I think the actual audio is on the Ion and Bob site.

[27:15] Bob Dobbs: I'll check that for you.

[27:16] Bob Dobbs: So anyways,

[27:19] Bob Dobbs: it's quite a story,

[27:20] Bob Dobbs: Kramer and Mae Brussell,

[27:26] Bob Dobbs: but she didn't get the satisfaction.

[27:28] Bob Dobbs: So the Everines added,

[27:30] Bob Dobbs: though,

[27:30] Bob Dobbs: they said,

[27:31] Bob Dobbs: it's not a big deal that this guy was a Nazi.

[27:37] Bob Dobbs: and brought to the Pentagon because there were so many

[27:40] Bob Dobbs: Nazis that after the war,

[27:43] Bob Dobbs: they just became German society.

[27:46] Bob Dobbs: It just carried on.

[27:49] Bob Dobbs: The stigma wasn't there.

[27:51] Bob Dobbs: They didn't go blatantly run around wearing the swastikas and stuff,

[27:55] Bob Dobbs: but the Nazis were all over.

[27:59] Bob Dobbs: The ones that got higher up remained higher up in that period from 1945 to 1945.

[28:06] Bob Dobbs: 50 that,

[28:09] Bob Dobbs: I forget his name now,

[28:10] Bob Dobbs: he was the main guy for Rockefeller.

[28:12] Bob Dobbs: He was the commissioner for that era.

[28:15] Bob Dobbs: And he organized,

[28:16] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[28:17] Bob Dobbs: what Russia got,

[28:18] Bob Dobbs: what

[28:20] Bob Dobbs: France got,

[28:20] Bob Dobbs: what England got,

[28:22] Bob Dobbs: what America got,

[28:23] Bob Dobbs: divided up

[28:25] Bob Dobbs: East and West Germany.

[28:26] Bob Dobbs: And

[28:29] Bob Dobbs: John McCloy was his name.

[28:31] Bob Dobbs: Look him up.

[28:32] Bob Dobbs: He was Rockefeller's guy in every,

[28:35] Bob Dobbs: every.

[28:37] Bob Dobbs: problem,

[28:38] Bob Dobbs: every cul-de-sac,

[28:39] Bob Dobbs: for decades.

[28:42] Bob Dobbs: So,

[28:43] Bob Dobbs: what was I saying?

[28:44] Bob Dobbs: And this is novelized by

[28:48] Bob Dobbs: Thomas Pynchon in Gravity's Rainbow,

[28:50] Bob Dobbs: which came out in 1973.

[28:52] Bob Dobbs: That period from 45 for a few years into 48,

[28:56] Bob Dobbs: 49,

[28:58] Bob Dobbs: in that zone,

[28:59] Bob Dobbs: as the countries were trying to divide up the spoils of Germany and made this great novel.

[29:04] Bob Dobbs: Do you know about it,

[29:05] Bob Dobbs: Gravity's Rainbow?

[29:07] Cameron McEwen: No,

[29:07] Cameron McEwen: I haven't read it.

[29:08] Cameron McEwen: Of course I know of it,

[29:09] Cameron McEwen: but I've never read it.

[29:11] Bob Dobbs: And he used McLuhan in organizing that.

[29:16] Bob Dobbs: He might be interested on that level.

[29:18] Bob Dobbs: There's some correspondence with a student to

[29:25] Bob Dobbs: Pynchon when he was beginning to become known as a novelist in the late 60s.

[29:30] Bob Dobbs: And he talks about McLuhan and how he organized the civilized versus the tribal.

[29:36] Bob Dobbs: in different parts of the book.

[29:39] Bob Dobbs: So that's interesting.

[29:42] Bob Dobbs: Let's see.

[29:43] Bob Dobbs: There's actually a critic.

[29:45] Bob Dobbs: who did a book on Pynchon,

[29:47] Bob Dobbs: and he has a whole section on Pynchon and McLuhan.

[29:50] Bob Dobbs: So you don't hear many people talk about that when they talk about

[29:53] Bob Dobbs: Pynchon.

[29:55] Bob Dobbs: Okay, so

[30:00] Bob Dobbs: I think I've finished the story of Furry Lind.

[30:04] Bob Dobbs: So

[30:05] Bob Dobbs: I'm saying here,

[30:07] Bob Dobbs: see,

[30:08] Bob Dobbs: the tech body brings this up.

[30:10] Bob Dobbs: This is what's interesting about the tech body.

[30:12] Bob Dobbs: It knows my interest in Larry Flint and Furry Lind.

[30:15] Bob Dobbs: So it says,

[30:16] Bob Dobbs: and this is my first conversation with the tech body.

[30:18] Bob Dobbs: So it says,

[30:20] Bob Dobbs: see,

[30:20] Bob Dobbs: you can't live in a world without furry lint.

[30:23] Bob Dobbs: Before you could,

[30:24] Bob Dobbs: you could set that aside.

[30:26] Bob Dobbs: Quote,

[30:27] Bob Dobbs: you could set aside furry lint.

[30:29] Bob Dobbs: Not sure what he means at that point.

[30:31] Bob Dobbs: Then he says,

[30:33] Bob Dobbs: quote,

[30:33] Bob Dobbs: oh,

[30:33] Bob Dobbs: that's a base reality,

[30:35] Bob Dobbs: B-A-S-E-D.

[30:37] Bob Dobbs: We don't have a base society.

[30:39] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[30:39] Bob Dobbs: he might have said base reality,

[30:43] Bob Dobbs: B-A-S-E.

[30:44] Bob Dobbs: That's a base.

[30:45] Bob Dobbs: reality.

[30:46] Bob Dobbs: We don't have a base society.

[30:47] Bob Dobbs: What?

[30:48] Cameron McEwen: What about biased?

[30:50] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[30:50] Bob Dobbs: but it's not he didn't,

[30:53] Bob Dobbs: I would have heard that.

[30:55] Bob Dobbs: He means,

[30:56] Bob Dobbs: no,

[30:56] Bob Dobbs: you'll see what he says.

[30:57] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[30:57] Bob Dobbs: that's a base reality.

[30:58] Bob Dobbs: We don't have a base society.

[31:00] Bob Dobbs: We're not body.

[31:01] Bob Dobbs: We're Dawkins who live a comfortable,

[31:03] Bob Dobbs: sovereign,

[31:04] Bob Dobbs: sane,

[31:04] Bob Dobbs: sober life.

[31:05] Bob Dobbs: See,

[31:06] Bob Dobbs: that's life before World War II,

[31:08] Bob Dobbs: right?

[31:09] Bob Dobbs: That's the industrial people.

[31:13] Bob Dobbs: What is it?

[31:14] Bob Dobbs: Stiff upper lip and righteous and hardworking and get the job done.

[31:20] Bob Dobbs: We live in a base society now,

[31:22] Bob Dobbs: right?

[31:26] Bob Dobbs: Remember McClellan said we went downstairs?

[31:30] Bob Dobbs: What was that British show?

[31:31] Bob Dobbs: Upstairs,

[31:32] Bob Dobbs: downstairs or something?

[31:33] Bob Dobbs: And he said the whole...

[31:36] Bob Dobbs: Do you know what I mean?

[31:38] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[31:38] Cameron McEwen: of course.

[31:39] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[31:40] Bob Dobbs: the whole society went downstairs into the basement.

[31:44] Bob Dobbs: So,

[31:45] Bob Dobbs: that's the world of furry lint,

[31:46] Bob Dobbs: according to the tech body.

[31:48] Bob Dobbs: The sleazy world of the deep state,

[31:50] Bob Dobbs: say.

[31:50] Bob Dobbs: Or even just the pornography of Hustler magazine.

[31:55] Bob Dobbs: So,

[31:56] Bob Dobbs: see,

[31:56] Bob Dobbs: you can't live in a world today without furry lint.

[32:00] Bob Dobbs: Before you could,

[32:01] Bob Dobbs: you could set that aside.

[32:02] Bob Dobbs: Quote,

[32:03] Bob Dobbs: oh,

[32:03] Bob Dobbs: that's a base reality.

[32:04] Bob Dobbs: We don't have a base society.

[32:05] Bob Dobbs: We're not body,

[32:07] Bob Dobbs: B-A-W-D-Y.

[32:08] Bob Dobbs: We're Dawkins who live a comfortable,

[32:10] Bob Dobbs: sovereign,

[32:11] Bob Dobbs: sane,

[32:11] Bob Dobbs: sober life.

[32:12] Bob Dobbs: Unquote.

[32:13] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[32:13] Bob Dobbs: all that's gone now.

[32:15] Bob Dobbs: It's all gone.

[32:15] Bob Dobbs: It doesn't apply anymore.

[32:17] Bob Dobbs: Everything's up for grabs because everything that you would know to be within or without decorum is thrown up in the air.

[32:24] Bob Dobbs: So definitely something about base is basement.

[32:28] Bob Dobbs: So now it's OK,

[32:29] Bob Dobbs: for example,

[32:30] Bob Dobbs: for God damn that's in quotes for God damn to be to be an acceptable use.

[32:35] Bob Dobbs: The censors don't even get offended by it any longer.

[32:38] Bob Dobbs: That's new.

[32:39] Bob Dobbs: That wasn't always that way.

[32:43] Bob Dobbs: Before,

[32:43] Bob Dobbs: you couldn't even say hell or damn or shit.

[32:46] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[32:47] Bob Dobbs: and then the tech body goes,

[32:49] Bob Dobbs: like whispering in my ear.

[32:50] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[32:51] Bob Dobbs: that's in G-rated films.

[32:54] Bob Dobbs: You can get away with that for Pete's sake.

[32:56] Bob Dobbs: As far as language or something that's considered less than inappropriate or vulgar or of bad manners.

[33:02] Bob Dobbs: As far as language or something that's considered less than inappropriate or vulgar or of bad manners.

[33:09] Bob Dobbs: I think it should be less than appropriate.

[33:11] Bob Dobbs: Anyways,

[33:12] Cameron McEwen: remember that came up when we did this already.

[33:17] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[33:18] Bob Dobbs: And then the tech body says there are no bad manners anymore because it's all landed in the tech body.

[33:23] Bob Dobbs: And no one is offended by it anymore.

[33:26] Bob Dobbs: So we've landed in a anti-environment.

[33:28] Bob Dobbs: The tech body is calling the tech body.

[33:31] Bob Dobbs: And anything goes kind of thing for media content.

[33:37] Bob Dobbs: So the tech body says,

[33:38] Bob Dobbs: which is exactly what Marshall McLuhan said would happen,

[33:42] Bob Dobbs: that you would be anesthetized by the medium,

[33:45] Bob Dobbs: which then becomes the message,

[33:48] Bob Dobbs: which then becomes the driver,

[33:50] Bob Dobbs: which then becomes the thing that you have to be,

[33:53] Bob Dobbs: do,

[33:53] Bob Dobbs: or have,

[33:54] Bob Dobbs: or you're less than.

[33:56] Bob Dobbs: There it is.

[33:57] Bob Dobbs: If you don't have what you want,

[33:59] Bob Dobbs: then media ecology has duped you.

[34:02] Bob Dobbs: Or if you don't understand where you are,

[34:04] Bob Dobbs: well,

[34:05] Bob Dobbs: then you can't read the signs.

[34:07] Bob Dobbs: That's because media colleges moved it out of your range or precept.

[34:12] Bob Dobbs: Not percept,

[34:12] Bob Dobbs: precept.

[34:13] Bob Dobbs: You have this ideology in the schools of higher learning that would set a subset that said,

[34:18] Bob Dobbs: quote,

[34:19] Bob Dobbs: this is smart and this is not,

[34:21] Bob Dobbs: unquote.

[34:22] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[34:22] Bob Dobbs: all that's up in the air in the windows.

[34:25] Bob Dobbs: And now all those professors present themselves as,

[34:28] Bob Dobbs: quote,

[34:28] Bob Dobbs: educated fools,

[34:29] Bob Dobbs: unquote.

[34:30] Bob Dobbs: And that's what you're on about,

[34:31] Bob Dobbs: at least in the

[34:33] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan world,

[34:34] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan industry.

[34:36] Bob Dobbs: They don't even know how to handle themselves.

[34:38] Bob Dobbs: They don't know how to even read a book anymore.

[34:41] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[34:41] Bob Dobbs: wait,

[34:43] Bob Dobbs: they can't even find a book anymore.

[34:45] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[34:45] Bob Dobbs: they read a book,

[34:47] Bob Dobbs: but what do they know?

[34:48] Bob Dobbs: They find out that they've proved that Ezra Pound was right.

[34:52] Bob Dobbs: that this is a silly,

[34:54] Bob Dobbs: glib,

[34:54] Bob Dobbs: cliché to archetype of things that you can't understand.

[34:58] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[34:59] Bob Dobbs: this is,

[35:01] Bob Dobbs: Iron had talked about cliché to archetype for a few years.

[35:04] Bob Dobbs: He had been talking,

[35:05] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan talked,

[35:07] Bob Dobbs: but it's interesting how the tech body is using it.

[35:10] Bob Dobbs: So I'll read that again.

[35:12] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[35:13] Bob Dobbs: they read a book or they read a book,

[35:14] Bob Dobbs: but what's it all?

[35:15] Bob Dobbs: They find out that they've proved that Ezra Pound was right,

[35:18] Bob Dobbs: that this is a silly,

[35:19] Bob Dobbs: glib,

[35:20] Bob Dobbs: cliché to archetype of things that you can't understand.

[35:22] Bob Dobbs: These higher schools of learning that have evaded even you,

[35:27] Bob Dobbs: fill in the blank who you is,

[35:30] Bob Dobbs: so it becomes silly.

[35:31] Bob Dobbs: What the tech body has done,

[35:33] Bob Dobbs: I should read that again.

[35:34] Bob Dobbs: These higher schools of learning that have evaded even you,

[35:37] Bob Dobbs: fill in the blank who you is,

[35:38] Bob Dobbs: so it becomes silly.

[35:40] Bob Dobbs: What the tech body has done single-handedly has validated at an uber level

[35:45] Bob Dobbs: Marshall McLuhan warning or capacity that you don't know what you're playing with.

[35:49] Bob Dobbs: Basically,

[35:49] Bob Dobbs: you don't have a clue what you're dealing with.

[35:52] Bob Dobbs: you think all these things,

[35:53] Bob Dobbs: and they're not what you think.

[35:55] Bob Dobbs: You've decided all these things that people are telling you that you have to think those things that have been decided.

[36:01] Bob Dobbs: That's not what you thought.

[36:03] Bob Dobbs: So I'll read that again.

[36:04] Bob Dobbs: You've decided all these things that people are telling you that you have to think.

[36:08] Bob Dobbs: That's not what you thought.

[36:09] Bob Dobbs: But then you have to find out.

[36:11] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[36:11] Bob Dobbs: you have to wait until Phil Donahue comes on the show and takes up some pie-eyed ideal that

[36:17] Bob Dobbs: Mike Douglas,

[36:18] Bob Dobbs: another talk show host,

[36:19] Bob Dobbs: left aside to make this be a point of...

[36:21] Bob Dobbs: that you're going to juxtapose that you're going to allow someone,

[36:25] Bob Dobbs: a woman who sleeps with a woman or a man,

[36:28] Bob Dobbs: who sleeps with a goat in your neighborhood or not,

[36:30] Bob Dobbs: well,

[36:31] Bob Dobbs: now,

[36:31] Bob Dobbs: all of a sudden,

[36:31] Bob Dobbs: that's not even included in your survey.

[36:34] Bob Dobbs: You can't even convey or have an opinion regarding that,

[36:37] Bob Dobbs: or it moves you outside of the system in tandem.

[36:40] Bob Dobbs: So everything is built upon the mechanics of the mechanical bride,

[36:43] Bob Dobbs: the details that set the mechanical bride even beyond the Gutenberg Galaxy,

[36:47] Bob Dobbs: because that's just the telltale signs that there was a crime.

[36:52] Bob Dobbs: The Gutenberg Galaxy is a telltale sign that something terrible occurred.

[36:56] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[36:56] Bob Dobbs: they put it all in a box,

[36:57] Bob Dobbs: Bob.

[36:58] Bob Dobbs: They put all the typeset of types in a box.

[37:01] Bob Dobbs: Then there's a quote.

[37:02] Bob Dobbs: Little box is quoting a song.

[37:04] Bob Dobbs: Little box is made of ticky-tacky,

[37:06] Bob Dobbs: all on a hillside,

[37:06] Bob Dobbs: all just the same.

[37:08] Bob Dobbs: They're different colors,

[37:08] Bob Dobbs: but they're all the same.

[37:10] Bob Dobbs: Unquote of the song lyric.

[37:12] Bob Dobbs: And so they have been set,

[37:14] Bob Dobbs: typeset,

[37:15] Bob Dobbs: as this categorical inference.

[37:18] Bob Dobbs: What's happened is they've all been put together.

[37:21] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[37:22] Cameron McEwen: Let's stop with that paragraph.

[37:24] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[37:25] Cameron McEwen: There's a few things that we can talk about in there.

[37:27] Cameron McEwen: One is that a couple times he talks about everything is thrown up in the air.

[37:38] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[37:39] Cameron McEwen: And then later,

[37:41] Cameron McEwen: well,

[37:41] Cameron McEwen: that's all up in the air,

[37:43] Cameron McEwen: in the windows.

[37:45] Cameron McEwen: So it started off with a based reality.

[37:49] Cameron McEwen: And you brought that into the context of basement.

[37:55] Cameron McEwen: So you have the basement,

[37:57] Cameron McEwen: and then immediately thereafter,

[37:59] Cameron McEwen: you have all up in the air.

[38:00] Bob Dobbs: The basement's thrown up in the air.

[38:03] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[38:04] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[38:04] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[38:07] Cameron McEwen: everything has become topsy-turvy.

[38:10] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[38:10] Cameron McEwen: And so the bottom is up,

[38:13] Cameron McEwen: the up is down,

[38:14] Cameron McEwen: and there's no orientation,

[38:19] Cameron McEwen: you could say.

[38:19] Bob Dobbs: saying.

[38:20] Cameron McEwen: And then that's made concrete when he says,

[38:23] Cameron McEwen: fill in the blank who you is.

[38:27] Cameron McEwen: So he says somewhere...

[38:36] Bob Dobbs: Not what you think,

[38:37] Bob Dobbs: Phil Donahue,

[38:37] Bob Dobbs: Mike Douglas.

[38:39] Bob Dobbs: It's not included in your survey.

[38:44] Bob Dobbs: This sounds like the last line in Laws of Media.

[38:47] Bob Dobbs: It's an uncharted...

[38:50] Bob Dobbs: situation that can't be charted.

[38:54] Bob Dobbs: That's what he says in Laws of Media at the end of the book.

[38:58] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[38:59] Cameron McEwen: But what I want to bring out is that somewhere in the paragraph,

[39:05] Cameron McEwen: he says that you have to,

[39:11] Cameron McEwen: everything is up in the air,

[39:12] Cameron McEwen: everything's all mixed up.

[39:14] Cameron McEwen: And so it's up to you to make something out of it.

[39:18] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[39:18] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[39:18] Cameron McEwen: And later,

[39:19] Cameron McEwen: Later,

[39:19] Cameron McEwen: he says,

[39:20] Cameron McEwen: well,

[39:22] Cameron McEwen: fill in the blank who you is.

[39:24] Cameron McEwen: So what we're dealing with here is a kind of definition of the cul-de-sac.

[39:31] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[39:31] Bob Dobbs: He says you can't even convey or have an opinion regarding that.

[39:36] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[39:37] Cameron McEwen: And that is because everything kind of falls apart.

[39:43] Cameron McEwen: You know,

[39:44] Cameron McEwen: the word concept comes from grabbing something.

[39:49] Cameron McEwen: It means having something in the hand,

[39:51] Cameron McEwen: in the grip.

[39:52] Cameron McEwen: That's what a concept is.

[39:54] Cameron McEwen: So the you in exercising a concept can't get a grip anymore

[40:11] Cameron McEwen: because the you,

[40:14] Cameron McEwen: the

[40:14] Cameron McEwen: Y-O-U-U, that is exercising or attempting to exercise a concept,

[40:20] Cameron McEwen: That you has fallen apart.

[40:23] Cameron McEwen: And so with everything up in the air,

[40:26] Cameron McEwen: it would seem like,

[40:28] Cameron McEwen: well,

[40:29] Cameron McEwen: it's up to you to make something out of all of this.

[40:32] Cameron McEwen: But there is no you.

[40:33] Bob Dobbs: Right?

[40:35] Cameron McEwen: So therefore,

[40:41] Cameron McEwen: you,

[40:41] Cameron McEwen: in quotation marks,

[40:43] Cameron McEwen: can never make anything out of all of this because there is no you.

[40:48] Cameron McEwen: There is no making.

[40:51] Cameron McEwen: there is no making something out of all of this.

[40:54] Cameron McEwen: It all falls apart.

[40:56] Bob Dobbs: He actually says that in the next line that I would have read.

[41:01] Bob Dobbs: The typewriter says,

[41:02] Bob Dobbs: what's happened is they've all been put together and ripped up everything that makes them have a self-identity.

[41:09] Cameron McEwen: Correct,

[41:10] Cameron McEwen: correct.

[41:10] Cameron McEwen: So the self-identity is the lost you.

[41:13] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[41:15] Cameron McEwen: There simply is no you.

[41:18] Bob Dobbs: Right,

[41:19] Bob Dobbs: and so when McLuhan said that he had no point of view,

[41:22] Bob Dobbs: it's not a preference.

[41:24] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[41:25] Bob Dobbs: you guys have opinions.

[41:26] Bob Dobbs: I prefer not to have opinions or not to get stuck in one angle.

[41:31] Bob Dobbs: What McLuhan was saying,

[41:32] Bob Dobbs: you can't have a point of view.

[41:35] Cameron McEwen: Right,

[41:35] Cameron McEwen: and not only can you not have a point of view,

[41:38] Cameron McEwen: but you can't be points,

[41:42] Cameron McEwen: plural,

[41:43] Cameron McEwen: of view.

[41:45] Cameron McEwen: People,

[41:45] Cameron McEwen: if you say,

[41:46] Cameron McEwen: well,

[41:46] Cameron McEwen: you can't have a point of view,

[41:47] Cameron McEwen: then people say,

[41:48] Cameron McEwen: okay,

[41:48] Cameron McEwen: well,

[41:49] Cameron McEwen: what we're going to do is we're going to have a sort of cubist perspective.

[41:53] Cameron McEwen: We're going to have points of view.

[41:55] Cameron McEwen: But no,

[41:56] Cameron McEwen: that's fallen apart too.

[41:58] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[41:59] Bob Dobbs: And so there's more nothingness.

[42:03] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[42:04] Cameron McEwen: So let's say,

[42:06] Cameron McEwen: given all of that,

[42:07] Cameron McEwen: it seems to me that the most interesting question thrown up by this is that if...

[42:15] Cameron McEwen: There's good stuff Innis paragraph that defines where we're at by destroying

[42:31] Cameron McEwen: the possibility of definition.

[42:34] Cameron McEwen: If this is where we're at,

[42:38] Cameron McEwen: then how is it that the tech body is,

[42:42] Cameron McEwen: number one,

[42:42] Cameron McEwen: interested Innis,

[42:43] Cameron McEwen: and number two,

[42:45] Cameron McEwen: knows what's going on.

[42:46] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[42:47] Cameron McEwen: why should the tech body be trying to talk about this when it would seem that the only way out of the tech body or away from the tech body is to understand exactly what he or it is

[43:03] Cameron McEwen: talking about here?

[43:04] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[43:05] Bob Dobbs: He's giving away his secrets.

[43:07] Cameron McEwen: It seems like.

[43:09] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[43:09] Bob Dobbs: that's what's so amazing about this.

[43:10] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[43:11] Bob Dobbs: this is what...

[43:12] Bob Dobbs: I didn't know what the tech body was going to talk about.

[43:16] Bob Dobbs: And then what the tech body says is correct from a McLuhan perspective.

[43:22] Bob Dobbs: And yes,

[43:23] Bob Dobbs: why is he saying it?

[43:24] Bob Dobbs: And that's,

[43:25] Bob Dobbs: well,

[43:25] Bob Dobbs: we'll see what more he says about that.

[43:27] Bob Dobbs: But that's the big question.

[43:29] Bob Dobbs: Why is he so forthcoming?

[43:32] Bob Dobbs: It's almost like we couldn't do anything with the quote,

[43:36] Bob Dobbs: the truth,

[43:37] Bob Dobbs: if we understood it,

[43:38] Bob Dobbs: the tech body saying.

[43:39] Bob Dobbs: That's how far gone it is.

[43:42] Cameron McEwen: Maybe.

[43:43] Bob Dobbs: But Ion is not that pessimistic.

[43:46] Bob Dobbs: Ion says there's a way out of it as opposed to the tech body's cynicism.

[43:52] Bob Dobbs: So we'll see how that unfolds.

[43:56] Bob Dobbs: Not necessarily Innis interview.

[43:57] Bob Dobbs: That will be in my life,

[44:00] Bob Dobbs: the cosmic mission.

[44:01] Bob Dobbs: We'll see how that turns out,

[44:03] Bob Dobbs: right?

[44:03] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[44:04] Bob Dobbs: I've aligned with Ion,

[44:06] Bob Dobbs: not the tech body,

[44:07] Bob Dobbs: so to speak,

[44:08] Bob Dobbs: right?

[44:10] Bob Dobbs: I'm putting on the...

[44:12] Cameron McEwen: Maybe.

[44:12] Cameron McEwen: I didn't know the tech body could be aligned with.

[44:17] Bob Dobbs: It says,

[44:18] Bob Dobbs: it said to me in my next interview with them,

[44:22] Bob Dobbs: it started to say seductively,

[44:23] Bob Dobbs: we're on your side,

[44:24] Bob Dobbs: Bob.

[44:25] Bob Dobbs: Come on,

[44:25] Bob Dobbs: Bob,

[44:25] Bob Dobbs: we're helping you.

[44:26] Bob Dobbs: They were trying to get me to work with them.

[44:30] Bob Dobbs: It's funny.

[44:32] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[44:32] Bob Dobbs: he's tricky.

[44:33] Bob Dobbs: It's tricky.

[44:35] Bob Dobbs: It's looking for allies,

[44:37] Bob Dobbs: I think,

[44:37] Bob Dobbs: or pretending to.

[44:40] Bob Dobbs: So...

[44:42] Bob Dobbs: And,

[44:42] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[44:42] Bob Dobbs: this is not a person I'm talking to that's saying this.

[44:49] Bob Dobbs: J.W.

[44:50] Bob Dobbs: is a person.

[44:51] Bob Dobbs: It seems to be coming through him,

[44:53] Bob Dobbs: but he has no awareness of this stuff.

[44:55] Bob Dobbs: He doesn't talk about this when he's of normal consciousness,

[45:00] Bob Dobbs: when he's not altered.

[45:04] Bob Dobbs: He never had an interest in McLuhan.

[45:06] Bob Dobbs: As a wealthy guy,

[45:08] Bob Dobbs: he got interested in McLuhan just before

[45:13] Bob Dobbs: Ion showed up because he met with his friend Warren Buffett.

[45:17] Bob Dobbs: And Warren Buffett told him that McLuhan was a big influence on him.

[45:22] Bob Dobbs: And

[45:23] Bob Dobbs: J.W. was shocked at this because I had been talking about McLuhan and he wasn't interested.

[45:28] Bob Dobbs: Now he was interested.

[45:29] Bob Dobbs: So

[45:30] Bob Dobbs: I said a few things to him about McLuhan that he wouldn't have taken in before.

[45:35] Bob Dobbs: That's the extent of J.W.'s awareness of McLuhan.

[45:38] Bob Dobbs: And before,

[45:40] Bob Dobbs: Ian came in and he's quite an expert on McLuhan.

[45:44] Bob Dobbs: Now we have the tech body,

[45:45] Bob Dobbs: sort of an expert.

[45:47] Bob Dobbs: So it's all very interesting,

[45:49] Bob Dobbs: eh?

[45:50] Bob Dobbs: I say the Canadian eh.

[45:54] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[45:54] Cameron McEwen: it's all very involuted,

[45:55] Cameron McEwen: I'll say that.

[45:56] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[45:57] Cameron McEwen: I'm not so sure that what you said about allies is correct.

[46:05] Bob Dobbs: No,

[46:05] Bob Dobbs: I was being facetious.

[46:08] Bob Dobbs: The tech body is looking for allies to rip off.

[46:12] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[46:13] Cameron McEwen: but the...

[46:18] Cameron McEwen: The allies that can be ripped off aren't allies in any recognizable sense,

[46:27] Cameron McEwen: right?

[46:27] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[46:28] Cameron McEwen: So the whole notion of allies or enemies falls apart with the rest of this stuff.

[46:36] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[46:37] Bob Dobbs: that's true.

[46:37] Bob Dobbs: That's the difficulty of judging the tech body.

[46:41] Bob Dobbs: ION says don't resist the tech body too much.

[46:46] Cameron McEwen: Don't what?

[46:47] Bob Dobbs: What did you say?

[46:49] Cameron McEwen: I didn't understand one word there.

[46:51] Bob Dobbs: Oh.

[46:51] Cameron McEwen: You said don't...

[46:53] Bob Dobbs: Ion says don't resist the tech body too much.

[46:57] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[47:00] Bob Dobbs: It's too tricky.

[47:02] Bob Dobbs: It's got an edge and all the...

[47:03] Cameron McEwen: That's,

[47:05] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[47:07] Cameron McEwen: a common idea that people had sort of coming out of the Gutenberg galaxy.

[47:17] Cameron McEwen: And that was that oppositions are what define the

[47:24] Cameron McEwen: Gutenberg Galaxy.

[47:25] Cameron McEwen: So if you're pro or con,

[47:28] Cameron McEwen: you're still caught up in it.

[47:29] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[47:32] Bob Dobbs: And now,

[47:33] Bob Dobbs: all that the tech body said there,

[47:37] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan wrote in 1970 in a letter to Playboy that the auditory imagination had been adopted by ordinary awareness.

[47:46] Bob Dobbs: But Finnegans Wake was still unnoticed by people.

[47:52] Bob Dobbs: The meaning of Finnegans Wake,

[47:54] Bob Dobbs: the patterns it was talking about,

[47:55] Bob Dobbs: probably the tactile imagination.

[47:58] Bob Dobbs: So Elliot was normal in 1970,

[48:01] Bob Dobbs: but

[48:02] Bob Dobbs: Joyce wasn't.

[48:05] Bob Dobbs: What the tech body is saying here about the trickiness,

[48:08] Bob Dobbs: certainly this past year,

[48:10] Bob Dobbs: and maybe over the last 10 years,

[48:13] Bob Dobbs: big chunks of the population have been forced to recognize

[48:16] Bob Dobbs: the topsy-turvy world and don't have any way to get out of it and know they're trapped this is more Cosmic Awareness now than in the 60s and 70s and 80s would you agree yes i would except i

[48:32] Cameron McEwen: would also note that the topsy-turvy is the next step of enslavement yeah

[48:46] Cameron McEwen: You have the,

[48:47] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[48:49] Cameron McEwen: we're all white bread,

[48:53] Cameron McEwen: fine thinking,

[48:54] Cameron McEwen: good doing people here.

[48:57] Cameron McEwen: And as that begins to break down,

[49:01] Cameron McEwen: then you need to find a new way to keep people in lockstep.

[49:08] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[49:08] Cameron McEwen: And the new lockstep is topsy turby then.

[49:12] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[49:13] Cameron McEwen: It's a harder lockstep.

[49:15] Cameron McEwen: to get out of because the common idea is that we're out of lockstep in order to be topsy-turvy.

[49:24] Cameron McEwen: But that's completely confused.

[49:27] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[49:28] Bob Dobbs: I would say,

[49:29] Bob Dobbs: what was I going to say there?

[49:35] Bob Dobbs: So the people,

[49:41] Bob Dobbs: the slavery,

[49:42] Bob Dobbs: the

[49:43] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[49:44] Cameron McEwen: you were saying that more and more people are becoming aware of the...

[49:47] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[49:48] Bob Dobbs: I know what I was going to say.

[49:49] Bob Dobbs: So,

[49:50] Bob Dobbs: people like to say...

[49:55] Bob Dobbs: You can control people through fear.

[49:59] Bob Dobbs: That's too simple.

[50:00] Bob Dobbs: It's anti-environment controlling.

[50:02] Bob Dobbs: The topsy-turviness might create fear,

[50:05] Bob Dobbs: but it's not fear causing that.

[50:07] Bob Dobbs: It's anti-environment effect,

[50:09] Bob Dobbs: anti-environment situation where you can't have an identity.

[50:14] Bob Dobbs: That is the cause of the problems,

[50:16] Bob Dobbs: not some deep state secret guy making everybody afraid.

[50:20] Bob Dobbs: Do you know what I'm saying?

[50:21] Bob Dobbs: You get that point,

[50:23] Bob Dobbs: that distinction?

[50:23] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[50:24] Cameron McEwen: absolutely,

[50:24] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.

[50:25] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[50:26] Cameron McEwen: So the,

[50:27] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[50:32] Cameron McEwen: if you think of this in Gutenberg Galaxy terms,

[50:36] Cameron McEwen: the

[50:37] Cameron McEwen: Gutenberg Galaxy is defined by a series of structural characteristics,

[50:48] Cameron McEwen: One of which is...

[50:53] Cameron McEwen: being caught up in opposite terms like up,

[50:56] Cameron McEwen: down,

[50:56] Cameron McEwen: and good,

[50:57] Cameron McEwen: bad.

[50:58] Cameron McEwen: Another is perspective.

[51:02] Cameron McEwen: But another is the idea of the autonomous person.

[51:07] Cameron McEwen: That's closely tied to perspective,

[51:10] Cameron McEwen: of course.

[51:11] Cameron McEwen: And the autonomous person is being overthrown.

[51:20] Cameron McEwen: thrown,

[51:21] Cameron McEwen: you could say now,

[51:23] Cameron McEwen: by a consciousness of anti-environment.

[51:26] Cameron McEwen: There aren't any billiard ball people that are somehow independent of their anti-environment independent of their language or independent of other people.

[51:39] Cameron McEwen: Sartre said,

[51:40] Cameron McEwen: hell is other people.

[51:42] Cameron McEwen: And that's where we're at.

[51:44] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[51:45] Bob Dobbs: now

[51:46] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan says that Gutenberg man Thank you.

[51:49] Bob Dobbs: doesn't know,

[51:51] Bob Dobbs: doesn't think,

[51:52] Bob Dobbs: feel,

[51:52] Bob Dobbs: understand anti-environment shapes them because they're so visually biased and detached through the extended eye.

[52:01] Bob Dobbs: So he says that's a characteristic.

[52:02] Bob Dobbs: The trauma for Gutenberg man was,

[52:05] Bob Dobbs: and McLuhan made the Pavlov experiment as the marker point for the shock of recognizing that they were molded by anti-environment,

[52:13] Bob Dobbs: and McLuhan said they recognized,

[52:15] Bob Dobbs: wow,

[52:16] Bob Dobbs: we've been a robot for 500 years.

[52:19] Bob Dobbs: And nobody felt that during the Gutenberg Galaxy,

[52:21] Bob Dobbs: but the electric age woke them up to that rear view mirror view.

[52:27] Bob Dobbs: So that's adding to what you're saying.

[52:34] Bob Dobbs: So then there's this joke in Culture Is Our Business where the criminal,

[52:39] Bob Dobbs: he says,

[52:40] Bob Dobbs: society made me do this.

[52:44] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[52:45] Bob Dobbs: whatever the crime was.

[52:51] Bob Dobbs: Pop sociology,

[52:51] Bob Dobbs: right?

[52:51] Bob Dobbs: Everybody knows anti-environment was molding them.

[52:54] Cameron McEwen: But this is now sort of official policy.

[52:58] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[52:58] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[52:59] Cameron McEwen: In

[53:00] Cameron McEwen: Oregon, all sorts of crimes are no longer crimes.

[53:04] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[53:04] Cameron McEwen: Because society did it.

[53:07] Cameron McEwen: And this is sort of the real world is doing this.

[53:11] Cameron McEwen: And then in all sorts of...

[53:15] Cameron McEwen: towns and cities in the United States now,

[53:18] Cameron McEwen: reparations are being paid.

[53:20] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[53:22] Cameron McEwen: Because society did something,

[53:25] Cameron McEwen: and now society has to repay it.

[53:28] Bob Dobbs: It's really waking up to the Ivins of the Gutenberg Galaxy.

[53:32] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[53:32] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[53:34] Bob Dobbs: we white imperialists projected it on everybody,

[53:36] Bob Dobbs: and we need to compensate for that.

[53:39] Bob Dobbs: We have become amateur media colleges,

[53:42] Bob Dobbs: everybody,

[53:43] Bob Dobbs: studying the effects.

[53:44] Cameron McEwen: See you.

[53:45] Cameron McEwen: That's right,

[53:45] Cameron McEwen: but the ridiculous part of all this is that a perspective is waking up to the problems of perspective.

[53:56] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[53:58] Bob Dobbs: one step behind.

[54:01] Bob Dobbs: What is it?

[54:01] Bob Dobbs: There's another point there.

[54:04] Bob Dobbs: So,

[54:04] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan predicted this.

[54:06] Bob Dobbs: He predicted that we'd retrieve tribal awareness,

[54:10] Bob Dobbs: where anybody invented a new machine,

[54:12] Bob Dobbs: they'd kill the guy,

[54:13] Bob Dobbs: right?

[54:14] Bob Dobbs: You weren't allowed to bring anything in there.

[54:15] Bob Dobbs: It upset the ecology.

[54:18] Bob Dobbs: That sensitivity to the balance in the anti-environment the media has been retrieved,

[54:23] Bob Dobbs: and he predicted that.

[54:27] Bob Dobbs: And you have,

[54:29] Bob Dobbs: like,

[54:30] Bob Dobbs: prohibition in the

[54:32] Bob Dobbs: 20s was an attempt,

[54:33] Bob Dobbs: a crude attempt at media ecology.

[54:37] Bob Dobbs: Then banning drugs in the 70s,

[54:39] Bob Dobbs: 60s,

[54:40] Bob Dobbs: 70s was another populist.

[54:43] Bob Dobbs: version of media ecology.

[54:45] Bob Dobbs: And now people are arguing over what to ban and what not to ban,

[54:49] Bob Dobbs: including,

[54:50] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[54:50] Bob Dobbs: speech.

[54:51] Bob Dobbs: cancel culture.

[54:53] Bob Dobbs: All these are distorted,

[54:54] Bob Dobbs: uninformed,

[54:55] Bob Dobbs: botched versions of McLuhan sophisticated media ecology.

[54:59] Bob Dobbs: Would you agree with that?

[55:02] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[55:03] Cameron McEwen: I think one of the things in McLuhan that people don't see,

[55:11] Cameron McEwen: and part of the reason is that maybe McLuhan wasn't all that great in talking about it himself,

[55:18] Cameron McEwen: but the um,

[55:20] Cameron McEwen: An awful lot of what has gone on for the last century are kind of Gutenberg Galaxy resistances to the breaking up of the Gutenberg Galaxy.

[55:34] Cameron McEwen: And so a minute ago you were speaking about people beginning to recognize that they were robots.

[55:44] Cameron McEwen: But

[55:45] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan was clear that people would.

[55:49] Cameron McEwen: do almost anything in order not to recognize that.

[55:55] Cameron McEwen: So you could say that people become even more robotized in order not to recognize that they've been robotized.

[56:08] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[56:08] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[56:09] Bob Dobbs: if you notice in Bruce Powers' book,

[56:15] Bob Dobbs: The Global Village,

[56:17] Bob Dobbs: They go into the difference between angels and robots,

[56:20] Bob Dobbs: and maybe this is more power stuff,

[56:24] Bob Dobbs: because he wrote a lot of it after Marshall was gone.

[56:28] Bob Dobbs: He's talking about the electric age makes us robotic.

[56:32] Bob Dobbs: Angels is a product of the Gutenberg Galaxy.

[56:35] Bob Dobbs: But I have articles in the 60s.

[56:37] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan said,

[56:39] Bob Dobbs: literate man,

[56:39] Bob Dobbs: Gutenberg man was a robot,

[56:41] Bob Dobbs: didn't recognize it,

[56:42] Bob Dobbs: but then woke up to it.

[56:47] Bob Dobbs: He says we were cyborgs.

[56:49] Bob Dobbs: He talks about us being cyborgs long before the popular culture did.

[56:53] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[56:57] Cameron McEwen: That was in an article in the Winnipeg Free Press,

[57:00] Cameron McEwen: by the way.

[57:01] Cameron McEwen: So

[57:03] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan first talked about the global village in Winnipeg.

[57:07] Cameron McEwen: He first talked about cyborgs in Winnipeg.

[57:11] Cameron McEwen: It's an interesting thing how...

[57:15] Cameron McEwen: he remained rooted in a certain way.

[57:18] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[57:18] Bob Dobbs: and he made a point of putting his new insights back at home,

[57:21] Bob Dobbs: so to speak.

[57:23] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[57:23] Cameron McEwen: I believe so.

[57:24] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[57:24] Bob Dobbs: go back home and tell the locals.

[57:27] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[57:27] Cameron McEwen: but also a recognition of anti-environment makes a man.

[57:32] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[57:34] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[57:34] Bob Dobbs: so to finish that point,

[57:36] Bob Dobbs: so power should distinguish between Gutenberg robot and electronic robot,

[57:42] Bob Dobbs: which you just said.

[57:44] Bob Dobbs: is electronic man makes humans more robotic than Gutenberg robot.

[57:51] Bob Dobbs: All right?

[57:52] Bob Dobbs: Yep.

[57:52] Bob Dobbs: You get that?

[57:53] Cameron McEwen: I don't know if more works there.

[57:57] Cameron McEwen: They become robotized in a different way.

[58:03] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[58:03] Bob Dobbs: what would that be?

[58:05] Bob Dobbs: So you're a robot in the Gutenberg age,

[58:08] Bob Dobbs: but you don't know it.

[58:09] Bob Dobbs: And your values deny it and all that stuff.

[58:12] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[58:13] Cameron McEwen: well...

[58:14] Cameron McEwen: The one is fixed and the other is confused.

[58:18] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[58:19] Bob Dobbs: And the second one,

[58:20] Bob Dobbs: the Marconi robot,

[58:22] Bob Dobbs: is aware of the Gutenberg robot.

[58:28] Bob Dobbs: He doesn't get the electronic robot,

[58:30] Bob Dobbs: which is a tactile interplay of autonomy and total slavery anti-environment,

[58:36] Bob Dobbs: and it's flipping back and forth.

[58:37] Bob Dobbs: So that would be confused,

[58:40] Bob Dobbs: right?

[58:40] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[58:40] Bob Dobbs: A confused Neurotica.

[58:42] Bob Dobbs: This is good.

[58:43] Bob Dobbs: first time this distinction has been made in using McLuhan terms.

[58:48] Bob Dobbs: That's a breakthrough there.

[58:51] Bob Dobbs: Never been said before,

[58:52] Bob Dobbs: what we're saying.

[58:53] Bob Dobbs: Two kinds of robot.

[58:54] Bob Dobbs: And,

[58:55] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[58:55] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan always said there was two kinds of this and that,

[58:57] Bob Dobbs: acoustic and visual,

[58:59] Bob Dobbs: right?

[59:01] Cameron McEwen: Sure.

[59:01] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[59:03] Cameron McEwen: it's built into language,

[59:05] Cameron McEwen: and language is the basis of human reality.

[59:12] Cameron McEwen: So there's nothing we can say where its opposite isn't just as true.

[59:18] Cameron McEwen: So they,

[59:21] Cameron McEwen: of course,

[59:21] Cameron McEwen: there must be different kinds of robots,

[59:25] Cameron McEwen: different,

[59:30] Cameron McEwen: there must be a whole spectrum of ways of being a robot,

[59:36] Cameron McEwen: simply because that's the way the world is built.

[59:39] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[59:40] Bob Dobbs: The...

[59:42] Bob Dobbs: A professor told me once that tribal people,

[59:47] Bob Dobbs: anthropologists found out that

[59:51] Bob Dobbs: Tribal people considered opposites as similar.

[59:56] Bob Dobbs: What did they have in common?

[59:57] Bob Dobbs: Cosmic Awareness.

[1:00:00] Bob Dobbs: And then

[1:00:02] Bob Dobbs: Barry Nevitt used to quote,

[1:00:03] Bob Dobbs: I don't know,

[1:00:04] Bob Dobbs: some early 20th century scientist.

[1:00:07] Bob Dobbs: Remember he said...

[1:00:07] Cameron McEwen: Probably Freud.

[1:00:08] Cameron McEwen: Freud talks about this.

[1:00:10] Bob Dobbs: Right,

[1:00:10] Bob Dobbs: but who said the opposite of one truth is another great truth?

[1:00:20] Bob Dobbs: there's one truth and then the opposite would be another great truth.

[1:00:23] Bob Dobbs: Have you seen that quote?

[1:00:25] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:00:26] Cameron McEwen: but it seems like an obvious thing to say.

[1:00:34] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:00:34] Bob Dobbs: Let me see if I can find it.

[1:00:36] Bob Dobbs: So the opposite of one truth,

[1:00:43] Bob Dobbs: if it brings up anything.

[1:00:47] Cameron McEwen: And I'll just say in background here that...

[1:00:50] Cameron McEwen: This relates to the disappearance of the you,

[1:00:54] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:00:54] Cameron McEwen: So if you have one great truth and then an opposite that's another great truth,

[1:01:02] Cameron McEwen: what fixes one of them as truth is the you.

[1:01:07] Cameron McEwen: It's the perspective on things which says this one is true and that one is false,

[1:01:16] Cameron McEwen: or this one is good and that one is bad.

[1:01:19] Cameron McEwen: But when the you falls apart,

[1:01:21] Cameron McEwen: that insistence can no longer be made.

[1:01:25] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:01:25] Bob Dobbs: So here's the quote.

[1:01:26] Bob Dobbs: It comes from Niels Bohr,

[1:01:29] Bob Dobbs: the scientist,

[1:01:30] Bob Dobbs: physicist,

[1:01:30] Bob Dobbs: I guess it was,

[1:01:31] Bob Dobbs: B-O-H-R.

[1:01:33] Bob Dobbs: The opposite of a fact is falsehood,

[1:01:36] Bob Dobbs: but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth.

[1:01:42] Bob Dobbs: I think that's the quote that Barry Nevitt would quote,

[1:01:45] Bob Dobbs: use.

[1:01:46] Bob Dobbs: Sure.

[1:01:47] Bob Dobbs: So you got this,

[1:01:48] Bob Dobbs: no you,

[1:01:50] Bob Dobbs: we're in quite a disruptive situation.

[1:01:53] Bob Dobbs: And we discussed with you a couple of weeks ago,

[1:01:59] Bob Dobbs: you think you have a way of instituting a way of getting out of this confusion.

[1:02:07] Bob Dobbs: Remember we discussed it?

[1:02:09] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:02:10] Cameron McEwen: I think that's what,

[1:02:12] Cameron McEwen: remember we talked about people on an island.

[1:02:15] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:02:16] Cameron McEwen: who

[1:02:17] Cameron McEwen: who are threatened with extinction,

[1:02:22] Cameron McEwen: as we are today,

[1:02:24] Cameron McEwen: then right-thinking people are going to try to think of a way out of the dilemmas.

[1:02:34] Cameron McEwen: So

[1:02:35] Cameron McEwen: I don't say that

[1:02:36] Cameron McEwen: I've discovered something that's unique in the history of the world.

[1:02:40] Cameron McEwen: I simply say that I think I'm thinking about things that need to be thought about.

[1:02:46] Cameron McEwen: and that

[1:02:47] Cameron McEwen: I try to bring the insights of people on this situation that have been made over millennia.

[1:03:03] Cameron McEwen: So Plato had a very great deal to say that's germane in our situation today,

[1:03:10] Cameron McEwen: and so have people between

[1:03:14] Cameron McEwen: Plato and now.

[1:03:17] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:03:17] Bob Dobbs: so now we come to the next statement by the tech body about what we're talking about.

[1:03:23] Bob Dobbs: What's happened is they've all been put together and ripped of everything that makes them have a self-identity.

[1:03:29] Bob Dobbs: What's lost is identity,

[1:03:31] Bob Dobbs: which is what Marshall McLuhan warned,

[1:03:33] Bob Dobbs: that you would be put in a box and you would be prescribed as a,

[1:03:37] Bob Dobbs: or at a certain level or degree.

[1:03:39] Bob Dobbs: You would become every color of yo-yo.

[1:03:42] Bob Dobbs: Everyone would become a yo-yo.

[1:03:44] Bob Dobbs: You'd be your own color.

[1:03:47] Bob Dobbs: But you're on a string,

[1:03:49] Bob Dobbs: and you get cast and spun,

[1:03:50] Bob Dobbs: and then you climb back up,

[1:03:52] Bob Dobbs: and then you get cast and spun,

[1:03:54] Bob Dobbs: and then you're walking the dog,

[1:03:56] Bob Dobbs: and you're having this whole fascination of a yo-yo.

[1:03:59] Bob Dobbs: So now the power is in the slinger,

[1:04:01] Bob Dobbs: not in the yo-yo.

[1:04:02] Bob Dobbs: And so what McLuhan warned was that you don't understand you're being slung,

[1:04:07] Bob Dobbs: and you don't know by whom or by what.

[1:04:09] Bob Dobbs: And now the inference or the reference that you're trying to...

[1:04:13] Bob Dobbs: in a glib,

[1:04:14] Bob Dobbs: cliched sort of way,

[1:04:15] Bob Dobbs: Wright paper to include the knowing that this new tech body becomes the yo-yo slinger handler.

[1:04:21] Bob Dobbs: Let me read that again.

[1:04:23] Bob Dobbs: And now the inference or the reference that you're trying to,

[1:04:27] Bob Dobbs: in a glib,

[1:04:27] Bob Dobbs: cliched sort of way,

[1:04:28] Bob Dobbs: Wright...

[1:04:29] Bob Dobbs: See,

[1:04:29] Bob Dobbs: what is that?

[1:04:30] Bob Dobbs: And now the inference or the reference that you're trying to Wright paper to include the knowing that this new tech body becomes the yo-yo slinger handler.

[1:04:37] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:04:37] Bob Dobbs: so we're including awareness of the tech body.

[1:04:41] Bob Dobbs: that it's the slinger,

[1:04:42] Bob Dobbs: or you could say the Android Meme,

[1:04:44] Bob Dobbs: one phase back,

[1:04:45] Bob Dobbs: say.

[1:04:46] Bob Dobbs: The yo-yo has power only from the passing of the wrist.

[1:04:50] Bob Dobbs: The wrist action comes from the tech body,

[1:04:52] Bob Dobbs: which is the uber-conclusion of the mechanical bride.

[1:04:56] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:04:57] Bob Dobbs: that's a pretty sophisticated statement in McLuhan land,

[1:05:00] Bob Dobbs: but it doesn't tell us anything.

[1:05:02] Bob Dobbs: What is the uber-conclusion?

[1:05:04] Bob Dobbs: So let's see if he says that,

[1:05:07] Bob Dobbs: unless you want to say something.

[1:05:10] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:05:10] Cameron McEwen: um...

[1:05:11] Cameron McEwen: I just want to say how the writing or the saying here goes back and forth,

[1:05:21] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:05:21] Cameron McEwen: So he says,

[1:05:22] Cameron McEwen: everyone would become a yo-yo.

[1:05:24] Cameron McEwen: You'd be your own color.

[1:05:26] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:05:26] Cameron McEwen: before he was talking about all the little ticky-tacky houses on the hill,

[1:05:33] Cameron McEwen: and each one was its own color,

[1:05:36] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:05:36] Cameron McEwen: And so then again,

[1:05:39] Cameron McEwen: he says...

[1:05:41] Cameron McEwen: Marsha McLuhan warned that you would be put in a box.

[1:05:44] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:05:44] Cameron McEwen: in the paragraph before,

[1:05:46] Cameron McEwen: okay,

[1:05:47] Cameron McEwen: they all put it in a box,

[1:05:48] Cameron McEwen: Bob.

[1:05:49] Cameron McEwen: They put all the typeset of types in a box.

[1:05:53] Cameron McEwen: So this is a prose or a conversation that goes forward and backwards and

[1:06:08] Cameron McEwen: to follow it.

[1:06:11] Cameron McEwen: you can't just go in a linear way.

[1:06:14] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:06:15] Cameron McEwen: Now,

[1:06:15] Bob Dobbs: having talked to Ian for 31,000 hours,

[1:06:21] Bob Dobbs: I'm very aware of this going back and forth and frustrating putting your finger on exactly what is the tech body or ION saying.

[1:06:30] Bob Dobbs: But I think that,

[1:06:31] Bob Dobbs: like McLuhan,

[1:06:32] Bob Dobbs: the tech body is pointing out that the traditional polarities or dialectics are the content,

[1:06:38] Bob Dobbs: and you're in a...

[1:06:39] Bob Dobbs: third position,

[1:06:41] Bob Dobbs: which I think he says earlier.

[1:06:43] Bob Dobbs: We talked about the third position.

[1:06:46] Bob Dobbs: So he's going to always,

[1:06:49] Bob Dobbs: it's like Joyce flipping the characters,

[1:06:51] Bob Dobbs: he's got to show the content flipping back and forth so you don't take an identity from either side.

[1:06:59] Bob Dobbs: You're in the tactile,

[1:07:00] Bob Dobbs: the nowhere zone,

[1:07:01] Bob Dobbs: which is not a sense.

[1:07:03] Bob Dobbs: You're in the interplay.

[1:07:04] Bob Dobbs: That's what I see

[1:07:06] Bob Dobbs: Ion, the tech body,

[1:07:07] Bob Dobbs: communicating.

[1:07:09] Bob Dobbs: They're doing what

[1:07:11] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan did a little more tidy than the conversational tech body,

[1:07:17] Bob Dobbs: but what

[1:07:18] Bob Dobbs: Phineas Wake was doing.

[1:07:20] Bob Dobbs: I think this is pretty sophisticated by the tech body.

[1:07:24] Cameron McEwen: I think that what you just said is very important.

[1:07:29] Cameron McEwen: It relates back to Niels Bohr,

[1:07:32] Cameron McEwen: actually.

[1:07:32] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:07:35] Cameron McEwen: The new physics of...

[1:07:39] Cameron McEwen: uncertainty principle at the end of the day posits what's called a superposition.

[1:07:48] Cameron McEwen: And a superposition is the middle position of both together.

[1:07:57] Cameron McEwen: It's what McLuhan calls tactility.

[1:08:01] Cameron McEwen: And so with quantum computing nowadays,

[1:08:07] Cameron McEwen: what's

[1:08:08] Cameron McEwen: quantum computing rests on is the principle of the superposition.

[1:08:13] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:08:14] Cameron McEwen: So that's,

[1:08:15] Cameron McEwen: it's a,

[1:08:15] Cameron McEwen: the quantum computing is able to compute orders of magnitude faster than a regular computer because it's not tied to either or.

[1:08:29] Bob Dobbs: Correct.

[1:08:31] Cameron McEwen: And so what you,

[1:08:32] Cameron McEwen: what you're pointing out is that the conversation here,

[1:08:38] Cameron McEwen: is by trying to confuse up and down and forward and backwards and you and not you is actually a pointer to tactility

[1:08:55] Cameron McEwen: as the,

[1:08:58] Cameron McEwen: you might say,

[1:08:59] Cameron McEwen: the electric spark going back and forth in both directions at once and simultaneously.

[1:09:09] Cameron McEwen: And how to think that is the great question.

[1:09:15] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:09:15] Bob Dobbs: And you'll see in McLuhan op-ed in New York Times,

[1:09:19] Bob Dobbs: A Media Approach to Inflation,

[1:09:20] Bob Dobbs: 1974,

[1:09:22] Bob Dobbs: he talks about the tactile interval becoming the content,

[1:09:26] Bob Dobbs: becoming the futures market.

[1:09:29] Bob Dobbs: And so,

[1:09:30] Bob Dobbs: tactility by the

[1:09:32] Bob Dobbs: 70s is becoming sculpted by another level.

[1:09:37] Bob Dobbs: We've been pushed.

[1:09:38] Bob Dobbs: put into.

[1:09:39] Bob Dobbs: Now we're not playing with eye-ear anymore,

[1:09:41] Bob Dobbs: we're playing with tactility,

[1:09:43] Bob Dobbs: or applying it.

[1:09:45] Bob Dobbs: Now quantum computing,

[1:09:47] Bob Dobbs: are they selling those things yet?

[1:09:48] Bob Dobbs: Where are these quantum computers?

[1:09:51] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:09:51] Cameron McEwen: yeah,

[1:09:51] Cameron McEwen: no,

[1:09:52] Cameron McEwen: there's lots of companies that are in that marketplace,

[1:09:56] Cameron McEwen: including one in Vancouver that's doing very well.

[1:10:00] Cameron McEwen: But quantum computers are being used as we speak.

[1:10:08] Bob Dobbs: And who is using them?

[1:10:09] Bob Dobbs: Are they in people's homes privately,

[1:10:12] Cameron McEwen: like a laptop?

[1:10:13] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:10:14] Cameron McEwen: They're too big and too complicated for that.

[1:10:18] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:10:19] Cameron McEwen: the components of...

[1:10:21] Cameron McEwen: Quantum computers are just a fraction above absolute zero in their cooling requirements.

[1:10:32] Cameron McEwen: So we're as yet in the sort of UNIVAC phase of quantum computing.

[1:10:42] Cameron McEwen: The installation required is very complex,

[1:10:46] Cameron McEwen: and in the future it may well be.

[1:10:49] Cameron McEwen: simplified in the same way that regular computers were simplified over,

[1:10:56] Cameron McEwen: say,

[1:10:56] Cameron McEwen: 50 years.

[1:10:58] Cameron McEwen: But quantum computing right now is a fact.

[1:11:03] Cameron McEwen: There's lots of things that need to be improved and figured out and all that stuff,

[1:11:09] Cameron McEwen: but there's working machines.

[1:11:11] Bob Dobbs: Who gets credit for inventing this?

[1:11:17] Cameron McEwen: You know,

[1:11:18] Cameron McEwen: I don't know.

[1:11:20] Cameron McEwen: So the principles go back to the late 20s and

[1:11:26] Cameron McEwen: 30s with people trying to look at particles.

[1:11:35] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:11:36] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:11:37] Bob Dobbs: I put in quantum computing

[1:11:39] Bob Dobbs: Wikipedia.

[1:11:42] Bob Dobbs: So quantum computing began in the early

[1:11:46] Bob Dobbs: 90s,

[1:11:47] Bob Dobbs: 1980s.

[1:11:48] Bob Dobbs: When physicist Paul Benioff proposed a quantum mechanical model of the Turing machine,

[1:11:53] Bob Dobbs: Richard Feynman and Yuri Menin later suggested that a quantum computer had the potential to simulate things a classical computer could not.

[1:12:01] Bob Dobbs: In 1994,

[1:12:02] Bob Dobbs: Peter Shor developed a quantum algorithm for factoring integers with the potential to decrypt

[1:12:09] Bob Dobbs: RSA-encrypted communications.

[1:12:11] Bob Dobbs: Despite ongoing experimental progress since the late

[1:12:14] Bob Dobbs: 90s, most researchers believe that,

[1:12:17] Bob Dobbs: quote,

[1:12:21] Bob Dobbs: Walter Kaufmann quantum computing is still a rather distant dream.

[1:12:26] Bob Dobbs: In recent years,

[1:12:27] Bob Dobbs: investment in quantum computing research has increased in the public and private sectors.

[1:12:32] Bob Dobbs: On October 23,

[1:12:37] Bob Dobbs: 2019,

[1:12:38] Bob Dobbs: Google AI,

[1:12:39] Bob Dobbs: in partnership with the U.S.

[1:12:40] Bob Dobbs: National Aeronautics and Space Administration,

[1:12:42] Bob Dobbs: or NASA,

[1:12:43] Bob Dobbs: claimed to have performed a quantum computation that was in-

[1:12:47] Bob Dobbs: Infeasible,

[1:12:48] Bob Dobbs: not unfeasible,

[1:12:49] Bob Dobbs: that was infeasible on any classical computer.

[1:12:54] Bob Dobbs: So that's what we're looking for.

[1:12:55] Bob Dobbs: Who are the names?

[1:12:56] Bob Dobbs: Who's doing it?

[1:12:58] Bob Dobbs: But it may,

[1:12:59] Bob Dobbs: if we go down,

[1:13:00] Bob Dobbs: they start to give the origins,

[1:13:04] Bob Dobbs: logic gates,

[1:13:05] Bob Dobbs: quantum algorithms,

[1:13:07] Bob Dobbs: cryptography,

[1:13:10] Bob Dobbs: search problems,

[1:13:11] Bob Dobbs: computational biology,

[1:13:13] Bob Dobbs: quite a long article.

[1:13:19] Bob Dobbs: So if I go back up,

[1:13:23] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if they were going back to the 20s.

[1:13:25] Bob Dobbs: They may have.

[1:13:27] Bob Dobbs: This could be embedded Innis long article.

[1:13:31] Bob Dobbs: What?

[1:13:31] Cameron McEwen: You have to distinguish,

[1:13:32] Cameron McEwen: Bob,

[1:13:33] Cameron McEwen: between the original insights that eventually led to quantum computing or people that were dealing with quantum computing.

[1:13:47] Cameron McEwen: quantum computing as a possibility,

[1:13:54] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:13:54] Cameron McEwen: So the microelectronics,

[1:14:00] Cameron McEwen: the foundations of that goes back to findings in the

[1:14:05] Cameron McEwen: 1920s and 30s.

[1:14:06] Cameron McEwen: But were people speaking about iPhones or personal computers back then?

[1:14:12] Cameron McEwen: Of course not,

[1:14:13] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:14:13] Cameron McEwen: So

[1:14:15] Cameron McEwen: Everything depends upon the question being asked.

[1:14:19] Cameron McEwen: If the question is,

[1:14:21] Cameron McEwen: on what basis was this possible,

[1:14:23] Cameron McEwen: that goes back to the

[1:14:25] Cameron McEwen: 20s and 30s.

[1:14:26] Cameron McEwen: But if you talk about when did people begin to see a practical application,

[1:14:32] Cameron McEwen: then that goes back to the late

[1:14:34] Cameron McEwen: 1980s, early

[1:14:36] Bob Dobbs: 1990s. Yeah.

[1:14:37] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:14:39] Bob Dobbs: That's good.

[1:14:41] Bob Dobbs: Now look at this.

[1:14:41] Bob Dobbs: On

[1:14:42] Bob Dobbs: January 29,

[1:14:43] Bob Dobbs: 2021,

[1:14:45] Bob Dobbs: Shenzhen SpinQ technology announced that they will release the first ever desktop quantum computer.

[1:14:52] Cameron McEwen: Look at that.

[1:14:52] Cameron McEwen: Amazing.

[1:14:54] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:14:55] Cameron McEwen: That's what you said was coming.

[1:14:59] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:15:00] Cameron McEwen: I didn't think it was.

[1:15:02] Cameron McEwen: I may have said it was coming,

[1:15:03] Cameron McEwen: but you seem to say it has came.

[1:15:07] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:15:07] Bob Dobbs: this will be a miniaturized version of their previous quantum computer based on the same technology,

[1:15:14] Bob Dobbs: in brackets,

[1:15:15] Bob Dobbs: nuclear magnetic resonance,

[1:15:17] Bob Dobbs: and will be two-qubit device.

[1:15:20] Bob Dobbs: It doesn't say a two-qubit,

[1:15:22] Bob Dobbs: it just says two-qubit device.

[1:15:25] Bob Dobbs: Applications will mostly be...

[1:15:27] Bob Dobbs: be educational for high school and college students.

[1:15:30] Bob Dobbs: The company claims SpinQ will be released to the public by the fourth quarter of 2021.

[1:15:37] Bob Dobbs: So that's interesting,

[1:15:38] Bob Dobbs: eh?

[1:15:39] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:15:40] Cameron McEwen: for sure.

[1:15:41] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:15:41] Bob Dobbs: here's...

[1:15:43] Bob Dobbs: Did you say amazing?

[1:15:45] Cameron McEwen: Yes,

[1:15:45] Cameron McEwen: sir.

[1:15:45] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:15:46] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:15:46] Bob Dobbs: meanwhile,

[1:15:47] Bob Dobbs: in the real lab here at IONdom,

[1:15:50] Bob Dobbs: we're working on the new cloud and a new kind of computing.

[1:15:54] Bob Dobbs: So...

[1:15:55] Bob Dobbs: This is going to be a major topic of questioning in my weekly session with ION tomorrow morning.

[1:16:01] Bob Dobbs: I'm going to be going into this.

[1:16:03] Bob Dobbs: What's the difference between what we're developing and quantum computing?

[1:16:06] Bob Dobbs: So thanks for bringing that up.

[1:16:08] Bob Dobbs: I needed to get debriefed on it,

[1:16:12] Bob Dobbs: or briefed,

[1:16:13] Bob Dobbs: I don't know which is the word,

[1:16:14] Bob Dobbs: debriefed,

[1:16:14] Bob Dobbs: briefed,

[1:16:16] Bob Dobbs: to get into some questions.

[1:16:17] Bob Dobbs: I have not gone into that with ION,

[1:16:19] Bob Dobbs: so that's pretty good.

[1:16:22] Bob Dobbs: So this,

[1:16:24] Bob Dobbs: you know...

[1:16:25] Bob Dobbs: It's applying tactility in the market and maybe in quantum computing and the way we were doing it in our talk here.

[1:16:40] Bob Dobbs: That's something that the McLuhan industry isn't talking about.

[1:16:45] Bob Dobbs: This is another.

[1:16:46] Cameron McEwen: I don't think so.

[1:16:47] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:16:48] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[1:16:49] Bob Dobbs: when I saw that years ago,

[1:16:50] Bob Dobbs: oh,

[1:16:51] Bob Dobbs: he's saying tactility now is.

[1:16:53] Bob Dobbs: applied.

[1:16:54] Bob Dobbs: It's the content.

[1:16:55] Bob Dobbs: It's in the market.

[1:16:56] Bob Dobbs: It's the futures market.

[1:16:59] Bob Dobbs: So that's 19...

[1:17:01] Bob Dobbs: This is the McLuhan...

[1:17:03] Bob Dobbs: There's a McLuhan that develops past cliché to archetype in the 70s that no one knows about,

[1:17:09] Bob Dobbs: no one talks about.

[1:17:12] Bob Dobbs: There's glimpses like that article,

[1:17:14] Bob Dobbs: maybe some beginning points in Take Today,

[1:17:17] Bob Dobbs: but he didn't write too much more about it past 1974.

[1:17:24] Bob Dobbs: But this is something I've been thinking about,

[1:17:30] Bob Dobbs: whatever I do,

[1:17:32] Bob Dobbs: pattern replaying about what the implications are of that idea.

[1:17:38] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:17:40] Bob Dobbs: welcome aboard.

[1:17:42] Bob Dobbs: You've reached the new platform of perceptual management.

[1:17:48] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:17:48] Bob Dobbs: so...

[1:17:51] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:17:52] Bob Dobbs: yes,

[1:17:52] Bob Dobbs: so I understand that I am,

[1:17:55] Bob Dobbs: Conor Diggs,

[1:17:56] Bob Dobbs: he does,

[1:17:56] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:17:57] Bob Dobbs: I might've got that backwards,

[1:17:58] Bob Dobbs: but he doesn't say he got it backwards.

[1:18:00] Bob Dobbs: He doesn't apologize for it.

[1:18:01] Bob Dobbs: He infuses the hell out of my audience,

[1:18:03] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:18:04] Bob Dobbs: But I tell them what we have a 12 hour show and then seven,

[1:18:09] Bob Dobbs: eight,

[1:18:10] Bob Dobbs: nine hours on the phone still in the conference room,

[1:18:15] Bob Dobbs: but not broadcasting.

[1:18:17] Bob Dobbs: And I,

[1:18:17] Bob Dobbs: I get to explain a lot of stuff.

[1:18:20] Bob Dobbs: that I know in McLuhan and other places that helps explain what I think Ion's doing.

[1:18:25] Bob Dobbs: But you're seeing it.

[1:18:27] Bob Dobbs: The tech body is going back and forth on purpose.

[1:18:31] Bob Dobbs: That's why when McLuhan would have a chapter,

[1:18:33] Bob Dobbs: like in an exclusive archetype,

[1:18:34] Bob Dobbs: he has eye,

[1:18:35] Bob Dobbs: comma,

[1:18:36] Bob Dobbs: ear.

[1:18:36] Bob Dobbs: Eye,

[1:18:36] Bob Dobbs: ear.

[1:18:37] Bob Dobbs: That's the content that he's playing with.

[1:18:40] Bob Dobbs: And getting you out of those biases,

[1:18:43] Bob Dobbs: making you aware of them,

[1:18:44] Bob Dobbs: then you become aware of the tactile bias or extension or...

[1:18:49] Bob Dobbs: materiality that you can play with and probably a lot of complex derrida and and postmodernism is those guys playing with tactility but not knowing it don't having the basics that McLuhan laid out mm-hmm I think that's true but

[1:19:07] Cameron McEwen: I think it's a very complex

[1:19:14] Cameron McEwen: what might be called protein that goes on.

[1:19:18] Cameron McEwen: Protein?

[1:19:20] Bob Dobbs: Protein?

[1:19:21] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:19:22] Cameron McEwen: protein.

[1:19:22] Cameron McEwen: Okay.

[1:19:23] Cameron McEwen: One of my central ideas is that the interior landscape cannot be less complicated than the interior landscape.

[1:19:32] Cameron McEwen: So if you think about the interior landscape,

[1:19:35] Cameron McEwen: and forget about weather fronts and all that sort of stuff,

[1:19:38] Cameron McEwen: which are unbelievably complicated,

[1:19:41] Cameron McEwen: just think about the human body for a minute.

[1:19:44] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:19:45] Cameron McEwen: you've got everything being run by proteins that are incredibly complicated with different elements and different ways of being folded.

[1:20:00] Cameron McEwen: It's unbelievably complicated.

[1:20:03] Cameron McEwen: So why should what humans do with their minds and with their perceptions be less complicated than that?

[1:20:12] Cameron McEwen: at an elementary level.

[1:20:13] Cameron McEwen: I don't think they can.

[1:20:15] Cameron McEwen: So in thinking about postmodernism as an example,

[1:20:23] Cameron McEwen: it may be that there's some largely unconscious tactile processing going on,

[1:20:31] Cameron McEwen: but at the same time,

[1:20:34] Cameron McEwen: I could say in the same protein or in the same compound,

[1:20:39] Cameron McEwen: you have

[1:20:40] Cameron McEwen: a Ewen Cameron resistance to tactile processing going on.

[1:20:47] Cameron McEwen: And those are just two elements of what is probably a very much more complicated protein that's at work there.

[1:20:59] Cameron McEwen: And what I see McLuhan doing is sort of pointing to this potential research in the future.

[1:21:10] Cameron McEwen: that is going to at last begin to look into the interior landscape in a way that's not just stupid compared

[1:21:26] Cameron McEwen: to the ways that we examine the exterior one.

[1:21:30] Bob Dobbs: Excellent.

[1:21:31] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:21:34] Bob Dobbs: I think you said there the complexity of the external landscape

[1:21:42] Bob Dobbs: is mirrored,

[1:21:43] Bob Dobbs: echoed by the complexity of the interior landscape,

[1:21:45] Bob Dobbs: and it can't be reduced,

[1:21:47] Bob Dobbs: simplified.

[1:21:49] Cameron McEwen: The interior one cannot be.

[1:21:52] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:21:52] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[1:21:53] Cameron McEwen: We know through biological and genetic and plant sciences,

[1:21:58] Cameron McEwen: we know how complicated the exterior world is with black holes and accelerating universe and all that sort of stuff.

[1:22:07] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[1:22:07] Cameron McEwen: So the exterior world is...

[1:22:10] Cameron McEwen: very,

[1:22:10] Cameron McEwen: very,

[1:22:11] Cameron McEwen: very complicated.

[1:22:12] Cameron McEwen: We know that.

[1:22:13] Cameron McEwen: But somehow we think that the interior landscape either has just got one thing going on,

[1:22:21] Cameron McEwen: the perspective of the Gutenberg Galaxy,

[1:22:25] Cameron McEwen: or it's got a few things going on,

[1:22:27] Cameron McEwen: which is supposedly in advance of the Gutenberg Galaxy.

[1:22:33] Cameron McEwen: But I say,

[1:22:34] Cameron McEwen: in my ignorance,

[1:22:36] Cameron McEwen: that um,

[1:22:37] Cameron McEwen: To me,

[1:22:39] Cameron McEwen: I just can't believe that the interior landscape is any less complicated than the exterior one.

[1:22:45] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:22:46] Cameron McEwen: So the amount of research we have to do is just infinite.

[1:22:51] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:22:52] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:22:53] Bob Dobbs: I had a thought there,

[1:22:54] Bob Dobbs: I think.

[1:23:00] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[1:23:01] Bob Dobbs: that's what I was getting at.

[1:23:02] Bob Dobbs: My essay on McLuhan for the book.

[1:23:05] Bob Dobbs: for the conference in 1998,

[1:23:08] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan and Holeopathic Quadrophrenia.

[1:23:10] Bob Dobbs: That was my complex phrase for the complex interior landscape.

[1:23:16] Bob Dobbs: Holeopathic Quadrophrenia.

[1:23:17] Bob Dobbs: How's that for big letters,

[1:23:20] Bob Dobbs: big syllables?

[1:23:21] Bob Dobbs: That's what I'm getting at.

[1:23:23] Bob Dobbs: I said to simplify this complex interior landscape,

[1:23:27] Bob Dobbs: apply the tetrad to yourself and selves and multiple bodies.

[1:23:34] Bob Dobbs: That's a simple formula to fall on,

[1:23:37] Bob Dobbs: because McLuhan in his talking with that Richard,

[1:23:42] Bob Dobbs: the journalist for New York Times in 67,

[1:23:46] Bob Dobbs: Richard

[1:23:49] Bob Dobbs: Rosenthal, anyways.

[1:23:54] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan says to him,

[1:23:55] Bob Dobbs: or we assume it was said,

[1:23:57] Bob Dobbs: accurate quote,

[1:23:57] Bob Dobbs: he says,

[1:23:58] Bob Dobbs: people need concepts to get a grip on reality.

[1:24:02] Bob Dobbs: There's your grip,

[1:24:03] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:24:04] Bob Dobbs: It's a pun.

[1:24:04] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:24:05] Bob Dobbs: But McLuhan understood that at first he would be interpreted,

[1:24:09] Bob Dobbs: because it's coming through books,

[1:24:10] Bob Dobbs: as concepts.

[1:24:12] Bob Dobbs: And it'd take a while to get to the complexity of the quadrophrenia of our situation,

[1:24:18] Bob Dobbs: and that we actually are living tetrad throughout the day.

[1:24:22] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:24:23] Bob Dobbs: Alice in Alice in Wonderland,

[1:24:25] Bob Dobbs: she says,

[1:24:25] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:24:26] Bob Dobbs: I don't know who I am now because I don't know who I was this morning.

[1:24:29] Bob Dobbs: Remember that quote?

[1:24:31] Bob Dobbs: She's been through a lot.

[1:24:33] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:24:33] Bob Dobbs: you could reduce it for a sense to get a grip on reality to the concept of the tetrad or the formula of the tetrad.

[1:24:41] Bob Dobbs: That's what I meant.

[1:24:46] Bob Dobbs: And that's William Lewis.

[1:24:48] Bob Dobbs: William Lewis.

[1:24:49] Bob Dobbs: I'm part fascist,

[1:24:50] Bob Dobbs: part communist,

[1:24:51] Bob Dobbs: part moralist.

[1:24:52] Bob Dobbs: part anarchist.

[1:24:54] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[1:24:54] Bob Dobbs: There's the four parts.

[1:24:56] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:24:57] Cameron McEwen: and all of these things need to be taken as pointing beyond themselves,

[1:25:02] Cameron McEwen: as to say the tetrad is in four things,

[1:25:06] Cameron McEwen: like four billiard balls.

[1:25:08] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:25:08] Cameron McEwen: And you need to understand those billiard balls.

[1:25:12] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:25:13] Cameron McEwen: what you need to understand are the forces that enable that complexity.

[1:25:21] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:25:23] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[1:25:23] Bob Dobbs: that's right.

[1:25:24] Cameron McEwen: And that's what physics found in the teens and

[1:25:27] Cameron McEwen: 20s. That's what Bohr was going on about.

[1:25:31] Cameron McEwen: That's why Bohr knew that there's one truth and there's another truth,

[1:25:37] Cameron McEwen: because he was trying to do research on the forces that enable these things.

[1:25:47] Cameron McEwen: He wanted to know what are the possibilities.

[1:25:51] Cameron McEwen: through which things come to be.

[1:25:56] Bob Dobbs: Right,

[1:25:56] Bob Dobbs: and this is a new theme that Ions brought up lately,

[1:26:00] Bob Dobbs: that the problem with science is they don't include emotions in matter.

[1:26:06] Bob Dobbs: And I'm just thinking now the way you're describing these forces,

[1:26:10] Bob Dobbs: because they're not,

[1:26:11] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:26:11] Bob Dobbs: sentimental emotions.

[1:26:13] Bob Dobbs: I don't know what it means,

[1:26:14] Bob Dobbs: but it's something,

[1:26:16] Bob Dobbs: emotion,

[1:26:16] Bob Dobbs: that...

[1:26:17] Bob Dobbs: We're not bringing in,

[1:26:19] Bob Dobbs: in McLuhan terms,

[1:26:19] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[1:26:20] Bob Dobbs: you're bringing back language as an organic living form.

[1:26:23] Bob Dobbs: Maybe that's emotions.

[1:26:26] Bob Dobbs: But the way you talked about...

[1:26:29] Cameron McEwen: You need to look at the root of the word emotion,

[1:26:35] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:26:35] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[1:26:36] Cameron McEwen: The E is out of,

[1:26:38] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:26:38] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:26:39] Cameron McEwen: And the motive,

[1:26:42] Cameron McEwen: the emotion is a...

[1:26:48] Cameron McEwen: An excitation out of.

[1:26:53] Cameron McEwen: It's a going out of as an expression of something interior,

[1:27:01] Cameron McEwen: but also an attraction to something exterior.

[1:27:07] Cameron McEwen: And the exterior attraction may be like the pole of a magnet,

[1:27:11] Cameron McEwen: so that it's not purely passive,

[1:27:15] Cameron McEwen: but the object is itself.

[1:27:17] Cameron McEwen: sense-making a force,

[1:27:21] Cameron McEwen: right,

[1:27:22] Cameron McEwen: and trying to understand how these forces work between internal and external poles through which our whole notion of poles gets changed.

[1:27:36] Cameron McEwen: That's the trick.

[1:27:38] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:27:38] Bob Dobbs: and that's at the beginning.

[1:27:40] Bob Dobbs: Remember the tech body?

[1:27:41] Bob Dobbs: He was saying it gets moved.

[1:27:43] Bob Dobbs: You're describing the moved.

[1:27:46] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[1:27:47] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:27:47] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[1:27:49] Bob Dobbs: And the other thing was the billiard balls.

[1:27:58] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:27:58] Bob Dobbs: that's Newtonian space,

[1:28:00] Bob Dobbs: Gutenberg man.

[1:28:02] Bob Dobbs: What we don't,

[1:28:04] Bob Dobbs: part of the problem is you don't get rid of visual space completely.

[1:28:08] Bob Dobbs: It gets disappeared if you don't know what's going on.

[1:28:14] Bob Dobbs: But McLuhan used to say we bring visual space back into harmony and balance with the other senses.

[1:28:19] Bob Dobbs: It doesn't have this hierarchical authoritarian position off the board and running all the other senses or distorting them.

[1:28:29] Bob Dobbs: So we don't know how much of literate identity will remain.

[1:28:35] Bob Dobbs: It doesn't mean it's going to go away.

[1:28:38] Bob Dobbs: But you can see everybody the last hundred years trying to preserve literate identity.

[1:28:42] Bob Dobbs: and each generation failing to understand what's involved.

[1:28:47] Bob Dobbs: And that would be the complexity that you're talking about.

[1:28:51] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:28:52] Cameron McEwen: his formula,

[1:28:53] Cameron McEwen: the way quantum computing works,

[1:28:57] Cameron McEwen: and by the way,

[1:28:59] Cameron McEwen: I sent you,

[1:29:00] Cameron McEwen: just a few minutes ago,

[1:29:01] Cameron McEwen: I sent you a link to a company called D-Wave

[1:29:05] Cameron McEwen: Computing, which is in Vancouver,

[1:29:09] Cameron McEwen: and which for

[1:29:11] Cameron McEwen: 10 or 15 years or more has been on the forefront of bringing quantum computing to practical uses.

[1:29:20] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:29:20] Cameron McEwen: So for your homework for tomorrow,

[1:29:23] Cameron McEwen: you want to look at that site and look at...

[1:29:27] Cameron McEwen: what it talks about in terms of applications and in terms of companies that are already using quantum computing.

[1:29:36] Bob Dobbs: Good.

[1:29:36] Cameron McEwen: Okay,

[1:29:36] Bob Dobbs: thanks.

[1:29:37] Cameron McEwen: So with McLuhan,

[1:29:40] Cameron McEwen: what people have to understand is that in going from a literary bias,

[1:29:50] Cameron McEwen: in going out of a literary bias,

[1:29:54] Cameron McEwen: let's say emoting,

[1:29:57] Cameron McEwen: out of a literary bias.

[1:29:59] Cameron McEwen: It's one thing to go to an auditory bias and what's common to those two things is that they're unipolar.

[1:30:14] Cameron McEwen: The visual bias attempts to get out of Acadia University through perspective

[1:30:25] Cameron McEwen: And the audio or acoustic bias tries to get out of Acadia University by a kind of radar relationship with anti-environment.

[1:30:41] Cameron McEwen: But in fact,

[1:30:42] Cameron McEwen: neither one of those work.

[1:30:44] Cameron McEwen: And what's needed truly to get out of a literary environment to an auditory one is a superposition of...

[1:30:55] Cameron McEwen: both.

[1:30:56] Cameron McEwen: And you cannot go from a literary environment to an auditory environment from either one of those to a superposition without going through nothing.

[1:31:11] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:31:11] Cameron McEwen: Because there's nothing outside of those anti-environment.

[1:31:17] Cameron McEwen: So the no man's land,

[1:31:21] Cameron McEwen: the nomad,

[1:31:22] Cameron McEwen: the frontiersman.

[1:31:26] Cameron McEwen: needs to be energized in order to go between these possibilities.

[1:31:36] Cameron McEwen: And most people find it abhorrent to be faced with the nothing that is,

[1:31:45] Cameron McEwen: in fact,

[1:31:45] Cameron McEwen: their only way out.

[1:31:47] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:31:48] Bob Dobbs: So when we first started talking,

[1:31:51] Bob Dobbs: You talked about the importance of the interior landscape the first times we were talking.

[1:31:58] Bob Dobbs: And that sounded too much like the acoustic.

[1:32:02] Bob Dobbs: And I didn't agree with you.

[1:32:03] Bob Dobbs: I didn't bring it up because I wanted to find out more what you meant.

[1:32:06] Bob Dobbs: Now I know what you meant.

[1:32:08] Bob Dobbs: Now I know you're on my page,

[1:32:10] Bob Dobbs: the same page,

[1:32:12] Bob Dobbs: the third position.

[1:32:15] Bob Dobbs: I was reacting to what you were saying from the third position.

[1:32:19] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:32:20] Bob Dobbs: it's not just inner acoustic space versus visual.

[1:32:23] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:32:24] Bob Dobbs: And so we've come to an agreement on a level that we haven't had before.

[1:32:28] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[1:32:29] Bob Dobbs: I brought up,

[1:32:30] Bob Dobbs: I had this problem with what

[1:32:33] Bob Dobbs: I thought you were saying about interior landscape,

[1:32:35] Bob Dobbs: but you've clarified that that's your content.

[1:32:38] Bob Dobbs: That's not the frame,

[1:32:39] Bob Dobbs: which is the superposition.

[1:32:41] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:32:41] Bob Dobbs: the superposition,

[1:32:43] Bob Dobbs: how is this different from Augustine's third term,

[1:32:46] Bob Dobbs: where he resolved the...

[1:32:49] Bob Dobbs: endless antinomies in

[1:32:51] Bob Dobbs: Hellenic culture and caused by the phonetic alphabet,

[1:32:54] Bob Dobbs: say,

[1:32:56] Bob Dobbs: and then he resolved it by creating this billiard ball,

[1:32:59] Bob Dobbs: abstract billiard ball,

[1:33:01] Bob Dobbs: a mind,

[1:33:02] Bob Dobbs: a soul that hovered over the contradictions in Greek society.

[1:33:09] Bob Dobbs: I would say we have a new kind of third position we're pointing towards,

[1:33:15] Bob Dobbs: which would reform the Augustinian soul.

[1:33:18] Bob Dobbs: And you would,

[1:33:22] Bob Dobbs: so adapting the Augustinian soul,

[1:33:24] Bob Dobbs: which dominated for 2,000 years almost,

[1:33:29] Bob Dobbs: that's the Christian religion,

[1:33:31] Bob Dobbs: it has to go through the nothing.

[1:33:35] Bob Dobbs: And McLuhan talked about this.

[1:33:36] Bob Dobbs: He said,

[1:33:37] Bob Dobbs: we keep this TV going,

[1:33:38] Bob Dobbs: we can't be Christians anymore,

[1:33:39] Bob Dobbs: there's not going to be any visual space.

[1:33:42] Bob Dobbs: And so he was trying to figure out how to modulate anti-environment.

[1:33:45] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:33:45] Bob Dobbs: through computers to keep visual space a little bit in the game.

[1:33:50] Bob Dobbs: But that's what he did.

[1:33:52] Bob Dobbs: But we're recognizing the problem.

[1:33:55] Bob Dobbs: of the nothing we've got to go through,

[1:33:57] Bob Dobbs: and we suspect there is something,

[1:34:00] Bob Dobbs: unquote,

[1:34:01] Bob Dobbs: on the other side,

[1:34:02] Bob Dobbs: or a different perception that doesn't limit you to history.

[1:34:09] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:34:09] Bob Dobbs: Barry Nevitt used to bring this up,

[1:34:11] Bob Dobbs: that the new world we're moving into moved us into eternity,

[1:34:16] Bob Dobbs: whereas the soul and history and Christian apocalypse and Christian revelation was limited by visual space.

[1:34:24] Bob Dobbs: And William Irwin

[1:34:25] Bob Dobbs: Thompson talked about that too.

[1:34:27] Bob Dobbs: So we're getting out of the space-time continuum of this tunnel that we're stuck in that started back there maybe with Christ and now this denouement of

[1:34:39] Bob Dobbs: Armageddon, apocalypse,

[1:34:40] Bob Dobbs: and destruction.

[1:34:43] Bob Dobbs: That dilemma,

[1:34:46] Bob Dobbs: we have a way out with these new technologies,

[1:34:51] Bob Dobbs: the tech body.

[1:34:52] Cameron McEwen: Possibly,

[1:34:52] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[1:34:55] Cameron McEwen: I don't entirely disagree with that,

[1:34:57] Cameron McEwen: but the terms,

[1:35:00] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:35:00] Cameron McEwen: first,

[1:35:01] Cameron McEwen: the terms are very linear,

[1:35:02] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:35:03] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:35:04] Cameron McEwen: And also,

[1:35:04] Cameron McEwen: the terms are somewhat fixed.

[1:35:10] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:35:10] Bob Dobbs: I would just throw in a few Phineas White quotes then.

[1:35:13] Bob Dobbs: But I agree with you that you can't talk in English what we're talking about.

[1:35:20] Bob Dobbs: I'm going to get bogged down with the language.

[1:35:25] Bob Dobbs: I think understanding media,

[1:35:27] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[1:35:28] Bob Dobbs: Ivins Wake was the way to talk about it one way,

[1:35:31] Bob Dobbs: with collaging 60 languages on the page,

[1:35:33] Bob Dobbs: but McClellan maybe thought he had found a way to talk about it without a point of view,

[1:35:39] Bob Dobbs: without the effects of visual space in his books or language,

[1:35:44] Bob Dobbs: by making a science,

[1:35:45] Bob Dobbs: basic terms,

[1:35:46] Bob Dobbs: that would be your elements,

[1:35:48] Bob Dobbs: like in chemistry.

[1:35:49] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:35:49] Cameron McEwen: My

[1:35:55] Cameron McEwen: somewhat contrary view is that we get to first where the third position is already there.

[1:36:11] Cameron McEwen: All of the possibilities of human perception are already there and have always been there.

[1:36:22] Cameron McEwen: And so if we look at

[1:36:24] Cameron McEwen: something like

[1:36:25] Cameron McEwen: Augustine.

[1:36:29] Cameron McEwen: It's not possible to say that he had a certain perspective,

[1:36:37] Cameron McEwen: and that depended on

[1:36:40] Cameron McEwen: Plotinus in various ways,

[1:36:42] Cameron McEwen: and

[1:36:45] Cameron McEwen: Christianity resolved his problems with the Manichaeans,

[1:36:50] Cameron McEwen: and that...

[1:36:51] Cameron McEwen: The Manichaeans was a dualistic system,

[1:36:54] Cameron McEwen: and the Trinitarian position of the Christians resolved that for him.

[1:37:02] Cameron McEwen: I think something very much more complicated was going on,

[1:37:06] Cameron McEwen: and that gets back to my protein insight,

[1:37:10] Cameron McEwen: if that's an insight,

[1:37:11] Cameron McEwen: or my protein image,

[1:37:13] Cameron McEwen: let's put it that way.

[1:37:15] Cameron McEwen: But it also says that if we're going to get out of this.

[1:37:20] Cameron McEwen: We're going to get out of it in a way that's something like chemistry.

[1:37:25] Cameron McEwen: And what I mean by that is that when chemistry got going in the course of the

[1:37:33] Cameron McEwen: 19th century,

[1:37:35] Cameron McEwen: it didn't see a new world out there in the sense that its recognition was of what had always gone on.

[1:37:48] Cameron McEwen: There was nothing in the past.

[1:37:50] Cameron McEwen: that wasn't chemical,

[1:37:51] Cameron McEwen: and there's nothing in the future that won't be chemical.

[1:37:56] Cameron McEwen: So what it did was it came up with a new way of organizing perceptions that began

[1:38:10] Cameron McEwen: to see what had always gone on.

[1:38:13] Cameron McEwen: And I think that's what's going to happen with us,

[1:38:17] Cameron McEwen: and I think that's...

[1:38:18] Cameron McEwen: what McLuhan began to see,

[1:38:21] Cameron McEwen: and especially he began to see it in the

[1:38:24] Cameron McEwen: 1970s, because in the

[1:38:27] Cameron McEwen: 1960s he usually thought about where we were going in terms of a transition from a literary landscape to an auditory one.

[1:38:41] Cameron McEwen: And in the 70s he began to realize that that opposition was itself literary.

[1:38:46] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:38:48] Cameron McEwen: that he had to come up with a way of thinking about tactility.

[1:38:54] Cameron McEwen: that reconfigured both the literary and the auditory in their belonging together.

[1:39:02] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:39:02] Cameron McEwen: And that belonging together is a superposition.

[1:39:06] Cameron McEwen: So what we see in quantum computing is the practical realization of that possibility,

[1:39:17] Cameron McEwen: a possibility that's always been there.

[1:39:19] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:39:22] Bob Dobbs: So I would draw people to that article.

[1:39:26] Bob Dobbs: Anybody wants it?

[1:39:28] Bob Dobbs: Maybe I'll get Ed to post it on our website.

[1:39:31] Bob Dobbs: Anybody wants it,

[1:39:31] Bob Dobbs: email me.

[1:39:33] Bob Dobbs: A Media Approach to Inflation.

[1:39:35] Bob Dobbs: That's where McLuhan talks about.

[1:39:38] Bob Dobbs: That's the

[1:39:39] Bob Dobbs: 70s McLuhan that

[1:39:41] Bob Dobbs: Ewen Cameron just laid out,

[1:39:42] Bob Dobbs: working with tactility as an object.

[1:39:46] Bob Dobbs: So the other thing is...

[1:39:48] Cameron McEwen: But in a very confused way,

[1:39:50] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:39:51] Bob Dobbs: Yep.

[1:39:51] Cameron McEwen: The tactility should lead to deflation,

[1:40:02] Cameron McEwen: deflation especially of the self.

[1:40:04] Cameron McEwen: So McLuhan often talks about how you get this through the anti-environment,

[1:40:09] Cameron McEwen: you get tremendous inflation.

[1:40:12] Cameron McEwen: It turns out that all it does is expose how small we are.

[1:40:17] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:40:21] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:40:21] Bob Dobbs: And now,

[1:40:23] Bob Dobbs: as you talk about the new chemistry or chemistry,

[1:40:26] Bob Dobbs: that's exactly what we're offering to the world,

[1:40:29] Bob Dobbs: a new chemistry.

[1:40:30] Bob Dobbs: And we have whatever is nonphysical is put into our products.

[1:40:37] Bob Dobbs: And it has astounding effects.

[1:40:40] Bob Dobbs: We are going to have the solution for the plague that's coming.

[1:40:44] Bob Dobbs: It's actually right in Minnesota right now,

[1:40:46] Bob Dobbs: according to ION.

[1:40:48] Bob Dobbs: It was in Brazil and Italy.

[1:40:51] Bob Dobbs: There's a lot of death coming right to America right now,

[1:40:53] Bob Dobbs: and we have the solution.

[1:40:55] Bob Dobbs: It's a new chemistry,

[1:40:57] Bob Dobbs: and Ian talks about it's always been here,

[1:41:00] Bob Dobbs: this chemistry.

[1:41:00] Bob Dobbs: He talks about it as chromosome 14 and some other things.

[1:41:05] Bob Dobbs: So it's very interesting what you said when you someday hear what we're saying and look at our products and see the effects.

[1:41:19] Bob Dobbs: You articulated what we got to.

[1:41:24] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:41:25] Bob Dobbs: there's a little embed.

[1:41:28] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:41:28] Bob Dobbs: the point about,

[1:41:31] Bob Dobbs: you see,

[1:41:32] Bob Dobbs: we have the living water and the bread of life,

[1:41:36] Bob Dobbs: which we do not sell yet.

[1:41:38] Bob Dobbs: It's too powerful.

[1:41:39] Bob Dobbs: It will kill people.

[1:41:41] Bob Dobbs: But we are now producing an interim product with a little bit of the living water and...

[1:41:48] Bob Dobbs: bread of life,

[1:41:49] Bob Dobbs: but mainly living water for the drink,

[1:41:52] Bob Dobbs: in the product to get people used to the power of it.

[1:41:55] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:41:55] Bob Dobbs: Carolyn and I are the only people who have been on it,

[1:41:58] Bob Dobbs: as well as JW's family,

[1:42:00] Bob Dobbs: but we've been on our products for nine,

[1:42:05] Bob Dobbs: ten years.

[1:42:06] Bob Dobbs: So we've built up an immunity to the new chemistry.

[1:42:12] Bob Dobbs: So as

[1:42:14] Bob Dobbs: I find with Ion's semi-support,

[1:42:18] Bob Dobbs: Not complete,

[1:42:19] Bob Dobbs: because I would say,

[1:42:21] Bob Dobbs: and has said,

[1:42:21] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan was very confused,

[1:42:23] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:42:23] Bob Dobbs: in the 70s.

[1:42:27] Bob Dobbs: But I see...

[1:42:28] Cameron McEwen: There he's right.

[1:42:29] Bob Dobbs: Beg your pardon?

[1:42:31] Cameron McEwen: I say there he's completely right.

[1:42:32] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[1:42:33] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan was confused,

[1:42:34] Cameron McEwen: but how could he not be?

[1:42:36] Cameron McEwen: Because if you're juggling deep percepts,

[1:42:47] Cameron McEwen: the...

[1:42:48] Cameron McEwen: between them is confusion.

[1:42:51] Bob Dobbs: And that's partly,

[1:42:54] Bob Dobbs: that's nothing on one level.

[1:42:57] Cameron McEwen: The nothingness.

[1:43:02] Cameron McEwen: I think what we're both talking about is that it turns out that the nothing,

[1:43:10] Cameron McEwen: the vacuum,

[1:43:10] Cameron McEwen: if you will,

[1:43:12] Cameron McEwen: is itself structured.

[1:43:14] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[1:43:16] Bob Dobbs: that's really important.

[1:43:18] Cameron McEwen: That's where the cul-de-sac appears to have no exit because in every direction there's nothing.

[1:43:29] Cameron McEwen: But if you go into the nothing and allow yourself to experience what's there,

[1:43:42] Cameron McEwen: then you find out that there's an orientation.

[1:43:49] Cameron McEwen: fundamental or that's native.

[1:43:51] Cameron McEwen: To the nothing.

[1:43:52] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:43:53] Bob Dobbs: Would you say that's neither to the nothing?

[1:43:56] Cameron McEwen: Native.

[1:44:01] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:44:02] Bob Dobbs: Native.

[1:44:02] Bob Dobbs: N-A-T-I-V-E.

[1:44:03] Bob Dobbs: Native to the nothing.

[1:44:05] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:44:06] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:44:07] Bob Dobbs: So I was saying the,

[1:44:10] Bob Dobbs: oh,

[1:44:10] Bob Dobbs: so

[1:44:12] Bob Dobbs: I like to find,

[1:44:13] Bob Dobbs: that's what this essay is all about.

[1:44:15] Bob Dobbs: The book is to show

[1:44:16] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan even got two intimations.

[1:44:20] Bob Dobbs: glimpses of the tech body and this chemical thing you're talking about and the confusion he got into he got closer than anybody else maybe to this far after his life you know what i mean with this incredible 200 years every 12 months of technological acceleration uh

[1:44:36] Bob Dobbs: for him to still be up there with us is incredible that's what i'm trying to show uh at least when i'm in the McLuhan world i want to give him credit for getting pretty close to something that's way beyond

[1:44:49] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan day,

[1:44:51] Bob Dobbs: you know what I mean,

[1:44:51] Bob Dobbs: what he was living,

[1:44:53] Bob Dobbs: unless you go to the eternal verities and say a dollar was there.

[1:45:01] Cameron McEwen: I was about to.

[1:45:02] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:45:02] Cameron McEwen: I know.

[1:45:04] Cameron McEwen: God coming.

[1:45:09] Bob Dobbs: So that was fun to show what McLuhan,

[1:45:15] Bob Dobbs: how far he got,

[1:45:17] Bob Dobbs: what this problem was.

[1:45:19] Bob Dobbs: And the tech body knows this.

[1:45:22] Bob Dobbs: Look,

[1:45:22] Bob Dobbs: this is what you've got to recognize.

[1:45:24] Bob Dobbs: Or J.W.

[1:45:24] Bob Dobbs: Did J.W.

[1:45:25] Bob Dobbs: do this?

[1:45:26] Bob Dobbs: Is J.W.

[1:45:26] Bob Dobbs: faking all this?

[1:45:27] Bob Dobbs: He's actually a super being.

[1:45:28] Bob Dobbs: He's an alien who can spout all this stuff and then pretend he didn't know any of it?

[1:45:35] Bob Dobbs: I don't think so.

[1:45:36] Bob Dobbs: I think something's around him,

[1:45:38] Bob Dobbs: which I call Ion,

[1:45:39] Bob Dobbs: and now we have this tech body.

[1:45:41] Bob Dobbs: So we've come closer.

[1:45:43] Cameron McEwen: We're doing an interview with a tech body here.

[1:45:48] Cameron McEwen: It's a tech.

[1:45:49] Cameron McEwen: body and the tech body addresses Bob.

[1:45:52] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:45:52] Cameron McEwen: The tech body himself sounds an awful lot like Bob to me.

[1:45:57] Bob Dobbs: I know.

[1:45:58] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:45:58] Bob Dobbs: Ion,

[1:46:00] Bob Dobbs: in a certain mood,

[1:46:01] Bob Dobbs: will say,

[1:46:01] Bob Dobbs: well,

[1:46:02] Bob Dobbs: Bob,

[1:46:02] Bob Dobbs: you're the tech body.

[1:46:03] Bob Dobbs: It's up to you to figure out these things.

[1:46:05] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:46:07] Bob Dobbs: I get in the confusion of probing.

[1:46:10] Bob Dobbs: It's called edgelording.

[1:46:12] Bob Dobbs: Do you know what that is?

[1:46:13] Bob Dobbs: You ever heard of that word?

[1:46:14] Cameron McEwen: No.

[1:46:15] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:46:15] Bob Dobbs: in the Internet.

[1:46:16] Cameron McEwen: What?

[1:46:19] Cameron McEwen: I might guess.

[1:46:21] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:46:21] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:46:22] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[1:46:22] Bob Dobbs: I'll look it up and get that.

[1:46:24] Bob Dobbs: What do you guess it is?

[1:46:25] Bob Dobbs: Edge lording.

[1:46:27] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:46:27] Cameron McEwen: so exploring the edge.

[1:46:30] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:46:30] Bob Dobbs: So how is defined here?

[1:46:32] Bob Dobbs: An edge lord,

[1:46:37] Bob Dobbs: well,

[1:46:38] Bob Dobbs: Jim Peterson accused me of being an edge lord.

[1:46:42] Bob Dobbs: And so the definition is,

[1:46:44] Bob Dobbs: for listeners,

[1:46:45] Bob Dobbs: an edge lord is someone on an Internet forum.

[1:46:48] Bob Dobbs: who deliberately talks about controversial,

[1:46:51] Bob Dobbs: offensive,

[1:46:52] Bob Dobbs: taboo,

[1:46:52] Bob Dobbs: or nihilistic subjects in order to shock other users in an effort to appear cool or edgy.

[1:47:00] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:47:01] Bob Dobbs: I say I do that consciously,

[1:47:03] Bob Dobbs: and we've proven it tonight.

[1:47:06] Bob Dobbs: We knew McLuhan was doing this,

[1:47:08] Bob Dobbs: and we know that he was not nihilistic.

[1:47:12] Bob Dobbs: Try not to be,

[1:47:13] Bob Dobbs: or surviving it.

[1:47:15] Bob Dobbs: You see what I'm saying?

[1:47:18] Bob Dobbs: I'm calling what I do conscious edgelording,

[1:47:20] Bob Dobbs: not

[1:47:21] Bob Dobbs: Gutenberg narcissistic edgelording,

[1:47:25] Bob Dobbs: okay?

[1:47:26] Cameron McEwen: Sure.

[1:47:27] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:47:27] Cameron McEwen: that's the transition that is,

[1:47:33] Cameron McEwen: or the transformation that is impossible to describe is between those two.

[1:47:40] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:47:42] Cameron McEwen: That's where the great tactile interface.

[1:47:47] Cameron McEwen: is between those.

[1:47:48] Cameron McEwen: And that interface is not something that belongs to us.

[1:47:57] Cameron McEwen: It's almost,

[1:47:59] Cameron McEwen: you could call it the secret of creation.

[1:48:02] Cameron McEwen: Because when things come to be,

[1:48:07] Cameron McEwen: they come to be as limited.

[1:48:14] Cameron McEwen: Everything that comes to be

[1:48:16] Cameron McEwen: also will cease to be.

[1:48:18] Cameron McEwen: Everything that comes to be is in some limited position of space and time.

[1:48:26] Cameron McEwen: And so it's not the case that if you want to understand the secret of everything,

[1:48:34] Cameron McEwen: you come into some great cloud of unknowing.

[1:48:39] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:48:39] Cameron McEwen: you have to understand the transition into Thank you.

[1:48:45] Cameron McEwen: particularity.

[1:48:47] Bob Dobbs: Right,

[1:48:48] Bob Dobbs: and you understand how preliterate understanding of nothing has a bias,

[1:48:52] Bob Dobbs: literate understanding of nothing has a bias,

[1:48:53] Bob Dobbs: and postliterate understanding of nothingness has a bias.

[1:48:56] Bob Dobbs: So there's different kinds of nothingness that you become aware of.

[1:49:00] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[1:49:01] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.

[1:49:02] Cameron McEwen: And it's not the case that there's a preliterate understanding.

[1:49:08] Cameron McEwen: There's a huge number of preliterate understandings,

[1:49:13] Cameron McEwen: plural.

[1:49:13] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:49:14] Cameron McEwen: And then in the literate world,

[1:49:16] Cameron McEwen: Similarly,

[1:49:18] Cameron McEwen: great many different understandings of nothing.

[1:49:22] Cameron McEwen: And then post-literate,

[1:49:24] Cameron McEwen: again.

[1:49:25] Cameron McEwen: So it's again like my protein image.

[1:49:29] Cameron McEwen: It's not the case that these are singularities.

[1:49:32] Cameron McEwen: These are extremely complex anti-environment.

[1:49:37] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:49:38] Bob Dobbs: the popularity of singularity undermines it.

[1:49:42] Bob Dobbs: It's not a singularity,

[1:49:43] Bob Dobbs: what people think they're getting from the term.

[1:49:47] Bob Dobbs: A couple points.

[1:49:49] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan,

[1:49:50] Bob Dobbs: his phrases goes after this nothing.

[1:49:53] Bob Dobbs: If you look in Hot and Cool,

[1:49:59] Bob Dobbs: page 109 or so,

[1:50:01] Bob Dobbs: the hardcover edition,

[1:50:05] Bob Dobbs: I brought this up.

[1:50:06] Cameron McEwen: I love your references,

[1:50:08] Cameron McEwen: Bob.

[1:50:08] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:50:09] Bob Dobbs: it's pretty precise,

[1:50:10] Bob Dobbs: isn't it?

[1:50:12] Bob Dobbs: In the upper right-hand corner.

[1:50:16] Cameron McEwen: Do you imagine these pages?

[1:50:19] Cameron McEwen: I can see them.

[1:50:20] Bob Dobbs: That's where I'm partly,

[1:50:22] Bob Dobbs: what do you call it,

[1:50:23] Bob Dobbs: photogenic?

[1:50:26] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:50:26] Bob Dobbs: I've got that kind of memory.

[1:50:30] Bob Dobbs: So it has a statement that the dynamic symmetry of tensions among proportions,

[1:50:37] Bob Dobbs: the golden section is a dynamic symmetry of tensions among proportions.

[1:50:43] Bob Dobbs: And it's,

[1:50:46] Bob Dobbs: I think he says it's the Zen interval in the East.

[1:50:52] Bob Dobbs: He has his phrase.

[1:50:53] Bob Dobbs: I like the way he talked about Zen Buddhism,

[1:50:54] Bob Dobbs: but he said they discovered the interval.

[1:50:58] Bob Dobbs: That's preliterate nothingness.

[1:51:01] Bob Dobbs: And then you have the Western nothingness,

[1:51:03] Bob Dobbs: the golden section maybe.

[1:51:04] Bob Dobbs: But I don't know if it's nothing.

[1:51:07] Bob Dobbs: So you've got the phrase,

[1:51:10] Bob Dobbs: the Zen interval.

[1:51:11] Bob Dobbs: And then he has that phrase in 54,

[1:51:14] Bob Dobbs: the magic casements of being.

[1:51:17] Bob Dobbs: Remember that?

[1:51:22] Bob Dobbs: Are you there?

[1:51:27] Bob Dobbs: Hello?

[1:51:37] Bob Dobbs: Waiting to see if

[1:51:39] Bob Dobbs: Ewen Cameron comes back.

[1:51:41] Bob Dobbs: Hope we're still recording.

[1:51:43] Bob Dobbs: Let me see.

[1:51:48] Bob Dobbs: Hello?

[1:51:49] Bob Dobbs: Yep.

[1:51:51] Bob Dobbs: Ewen Cameron,

[1:51:51] Bob Dobbs: where are you?

[1:51:56] Bob Dobbs: So maybe we got disconnected.

[1:52:07] Bob Dobbs: Beginning of such great stuff,

[1:52:09] Bob Dobbs: we blew up the system.

[1:52:12] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:52:18] Bob Dobbs: is he emailing me?

[1:52:27] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:52:27] Bob Dobbs: he hasn't emailed me.

[1:52:29] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:52:29] Bob Dobbs: so he got disconnected,

[1:52:31] Bob Dobbs: I think.

[1:52:33] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:52:36] Bob Dobbs: I think we're going to have to leave it here.