[00:02] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[00:03] Bob Dobbs: this is Bob and Cameron McEwen for the
[00:06] Bob Dobbs: 27th episode of our ongoing series of Cameron McEwen issues.
[00:13] Bob Dobbs: And we're doing my long essay or pamphlet or book or broadside on what you,
[00:22] Bob Dobbs: we didn't know about Trump.
[00:25] Bob Dobbs: And we're,
[00:27] Bob Dobbs: Cameron McEwen decided he'd like to start at the end of the book.
[00:31] Bob Dobbs: So we're doing the dialogue between anybody,
[00:36] Bob Dobbs: who was me,
[00:38] Bob Dobbs: interacting with TechBody,
[00:40] Bob Dobbs: and it was recorded,
[00:41] Bob Dobbs: and this is the transcript.
[00:43] Bob Dobbs: And we've pretty well finished the interplay between anybody and TechBody.
[00:48] Bob Dobbs: Now we're starting the last bit where TechBody has the final word.
[00:53] Bob Dobbs: It goes on for a page or two.
[00:56] Bob Dobbs: And Cameron McEwen had some ideas about what we said in the last session.
[01:01] Bob Dobbs: He wanted to point out some new stuff,
[01:03] Bob Dobbs: I guess.
[01:04] Bob Dobbs: Did you review it?
[01:05] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[01:05] Cameron McEwen: I don't know if it's new stuff,
[01:07] Cameron McEwen: but to me it's highly interesting stuff.
[01:11] Cameron McEwen: Did you review it?
[01:12] Bob Dobbs: Cameron McEwen,
[01:13] Bob Dobbs: did you go back and reread a bit of it?
[01:15] Cameron McEwen: Just a little bit,
[01:16] Cameron McEwen: but it was something that I always knew that I wanted to bring up in regard to your very last quotation.
[01:23] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[01:23] Cameron McEwen: But let me just ask you a question regarding what you were just saying.
[01:29] Cameron McEwen: saying between the interview between anybody and tech body in transcribing this stuff you're kind of acting as a channel of
[01:45] Cameron McEwen: the tech body and you're saying in your writing what he says
[01:59] Cameron McEwen: I don't know if it's to you or to the world or to who it is,
[02:05] Cameron McEwen: but the anybody,
[02:09] Cameron McEwen: as you were just saying,
[02:10] Cameron McEwen: is you.
[02:12] Cameron McEwen: It seems to me that in doing the anybody,
[02:20] Cameron McEwen: you're doing something similar to what you're doing with a tech body.
[02:24] Cameron McEwen: That is to say,
[02:26] Cameron McEwen: it's not as if you're...
[02:29] Cameron McEwen: A chemical body can make an appearance Innis writing,
[02:39] Cameron McEwen: Innis electric writing,
[02:41] Cameron McEwen: really.
[02:42] Cameron McEwen: It's an e-book.
[02:44] Cameron McEwen: And then sort of switch over to whatever body or bodies are composed in the tech body.
[02:56] Cameron McEwen: So I'm interested in...
[02:57] Cameron McEwen: the relationship that you see between the anybody and you?
[03:06] Bob Dobbs: I can't remember why I called myself anybody,
[03:10] Bob Dobbs: other than there was nothing special about me in relation to the tech body.
[03:17] Bob Dobbs: The tech body is its own creation.
[03:21] Bob Dobbs: I didn't make it,
[03:23] Bob Dobbs: as far as I know.
[03:29] Bob Dobbs: I didn't want to put my name in there.
[03:31] Bob Dobbs: I wanted to make it anonymous,
[03:34] Bob Dobbs: sort of slightly anonymous.
[03:38] Bob Dobbs: But there was no justification for that,
[03:40] Bob Dobbs: I don't think.
[03:41] Cameron McEwen: But even if the word Bob was in here instead of anybody throughout all these pages,
[03:52] Cameron McEwen: it seems to me that that Bob would be a very complicated construction.
[03:59] Cameron McEwen: Wouldn't be your chemical body.
[04:01] Cameron McEwen: Wouldn't be...
[04:03] Bob Dobbs: No,
[04:04] Bob Dobbs: that's the answer.
[04:05] Bob Dobbs: I didn't know what body I was because
[04:10] Bob Dobbs: TechBody has said,
[04:11] Bob Dobbs: or Ion has said,
[04:13] Bob Dobbs: that my five-body model,
[04:15] Bob Dobbs: the bodies had merged.
[04:17] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[04:17] Bob Dobbs: I knew that and meant that in my chart.
[04:21] Bob Dobbs: If you didn't look at my chart as a chart,
[04:24] Bob Dobbs: that's a visual fragmented chart.
[04:26] Bob Dobbs: So the merging of the five bodies...
[04:29] Bob Dobbs: I was thinking that 10 years,
[04:30] Bob Dobbs: 11 years ago.
[04:32] Bob Dobbs: So
[04:33] Bob Dobbs: I don't know what body I am today.
[04:35] Bob Dobbs: I think that's what,
[04:37] Bob Dobbs: it should have been anybody with a space between any and body.
[04:42] Bob Dobbs: But as you say that,
[04:43] Bob Dobbs: you don't know which body it is.
[04:45] Bob Dobbs: I said,
[04:45] Bob Dobbs: oh yeah,
[04:45] Bob Dobbs: that might be why
[04:47] Bob Dobbs: I didn't know which body to say I was.
[04:50] Bob Dobbs: It was a digital recording.
[04:53] Bob Dobbs: We were on the digital air when I did this.
[04:58] Cameron McEwen: You see,
[05:02] Cameron McEwen: having any space body or any hyphen body may seem like not knowing what body,
[05:15] Cameron McEwen: or it may be designating the way it is with body.
[05:21] Cameron McEwen: And that relates very closely to what I want to bring up to these last pages in the book.
[05:27] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[05:27] Cameron McEwen: Because where anybody starts talking with tech body,
[05:32] Cameron McEwen: that's on page 183.
[05:36] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[05:36] Cameron McEwen: And just above that,
[05:38] Cameron McEwen: the tech body is speaking,
[05:41] Cameron McEwen: and he says,
[05:42] Cameron McEwen: you're looking at the event horizon and judging your condition based on where you see other conditions conflate.
[05:51] Cameron McEwen: Now,
[05:52] Cameron McEwen: that is a precise description of the Gutenberg Galaxy.
[05:58] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[06:00] Bob Dobbs: let me see where that is.
[06:02] Bob Dobbs: What page is that on?
[06:03] Cameron McEwen: It's at 183 in the first paragraph,
[06:08] Cameron McEwen: at the end of the first paragraph.
[06:11] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[06:11] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[06:12] Bob Dobbs: ridiculous.
[06:13] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[06:13] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[06:15] Bob Dobbs: See,
[06:15] Bob Dobbs: that's what he's saying.
[06:16] Bob Dobbs: He's like,
[06:16] Bob Dobbs: you're looking at the big picture.
[06:17] Bob Dobbs: You're looking at the event horizon,
[06:19] Bob Dobbs: judging your condition based on where you see other conditions conflate.
[06:24] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[06:24] Bob Dobbs: that's a visual perspective situation.
[06:27] Cameron McEwen: That's right.
[06:27] Cameron McEwen: Perspective necessarily conflates.
[06:32] Bob Dobbs: And that's McLuhan criticizing people.
[06:37] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[06:37] Cameron McEwen: you could say that,
[06:38] Cameron McEwen: but I think it's the tech body making...
[06:44] Cameron McEwen: a statement that may go a little bit beyond McLuhan and at any rate is very important for what you go on to say after the interview between anybody in tech body or what the tech body goes on to say,
[07:02] Cameron McEwen: I guess I should specify.
[07:05] Cameron McEwen: But what's interesting here is he says you're looking at the event horizon and the
[07:14] Cameron McEwen: specification he's making here is that nothing that humans do,
[07:23] Cameron McEwen: nothing that humans do is not an aspect of looking at the event horizon.
[07:31] Cameron McEwen: As I say,
[07:32] Cameron McEwen: humans are an animal that always are coming from some ontological claim.
[07:44] Cameron McEwen: And what's unique about the Gutenberg Galaxy is that Innis perspective,
[07:55] Cameron McEwen: all other conditions conflate.
[07:57] Cameron McEwen: That's what the Gutenberg Galaxy thinks is truth,
[08:00] Cameron McEwen: or what it thinks is being,
[08:03] Cameron McEwen: is that conflation.
[08:05] Cameron McEwen: It thinks that conflation characterizes truth,
[08:10] Cameron McEwen: a little bit like Descartes said.
[08:12] Cameron McEwen: Thank you.
[08:16] Cameron McEwen: that conflation then comes to characterize or to condition everything that persons
[08:30] Cameron McEwen: held by that notion of the event horizon do in their lives.
[08:37] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[08:37] Cameron McEwen: So what's distinctive,
[08:40] Cameron McEwen: I think,
[08:40] Cameron McEwen: about the way you go about reading.
[08:43] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan and how I go about reading McLuhan.
[08:47] Cameron McEwen: And what is different from everybody else,
[08:49] Cameron McEwen: as far as I know,
[08:52] Cameron McEwen: is that we insist on tactility.
[08:55] Cameron McEwen: We insist that you cannot read anything that the man had to say without understanding that there's a hyphen there,
[09:06] Cameron McEwen: that there's tactility there.
[09:08] Cameron McEwen: So then if we come back to anybody with any...
[09:12] Cameron McEwen: space or hyphen body,
[09:16] Cameron McEwen: that is one way of saying that this is not the Gutenberg galaxy.
[09:21] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[09:22] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[09:23] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[09:23] Cameron McEwen: Okay.
[09:24] Cameron McEwen: So that said,
[09:26] Cameron McEwen: I'm going to come back to all of that,
[09:28] Cameron McEwen: but let's now go to the end of the interview between anybody in TechBody and start going through what the TechBody has to say by way of conclusion.
[09:42] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[09:42] Bob Dobbs: but I just want to say,
[09:44] Bob Dobbs: we don't know that's what...
[09:46] Bob Dobbs: We don't know.
[09:47] Bob Dobbs: That's what Marshall McLuhan was trying to point out.
[09:48] Bob Dobbs: He was like,
[09:49] Bob Dobbs: quote,
[09:49] Bob Dobbs: you people are ridiculous.
[09:50] Bob Dobbs: You put yourself in a box,
[09:51] Bob Dobbs: visual space,
[09:52] Bob Dobbs: and then you start screaming for equal box rights.
[09:55] Bob Dobbs: You mess yourself up.
[09:56] Bob Dobbs: You segregate yourself,
[09:57] Bob Dobbs: and then you're furious because you got segregated.
[10:01] Bob Dobbs: I want to go where the black people go.
[10:03] Bob Dobbs: No,
[10:04] Bob Dobbs: you're not going to do that.
[10:04] Bob Dobbs: You're not going to do that.
[10:05] Bob Dobbs: See,
[10:05] Bob Dobbs: that's what McLuhan saying.
[10:07] Bob Dobbs: He's like,
[10:07] Bob Dobbs: you're looking at the big picture.
[10:08] Bob Dobbs: You're looking at the event horizon.
[10:11] Bob Dobbs: So I think that's accurate.
[10:12] Bob Dobbs: If I take that as a tech body describing McLuhan...
[10:15] Bob Dobbs: critique of people's visual space bias.
[10:19] Bob Dobbs: And conflating is the homogeneity,
[10:22] Bob Dobbs: or maybe universalism,
[10:24] Bob Dobbs: of visual space,
[10:26] Bob Dobbs: whereas tactility is abrupt interfaces and contours and bumping,
[10:34] Bob Dobbs: which you indicated a second ago.
[10:37] Bob Dobbs: And so the rich people are rich.
[10:38] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[10:38] Bob Dobbs: what the hell is rich?
[10:40] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[10:40] Bob Dobbs: so
[10:41] Bob Dobbs: I just wanted to say that.
[10:43] Bob Dobbs: that point that that's McClellan that's accurate by the tech body so then we get to the last statement by the tech body beef beef in
[10:58] Bob Dobbs: the interaction last response or penultimate response to anybody so anybody saying bandwidth is how fast you can interact with the people you're interacting with that's right that's exactly right anybody says yes
[11:12] Bob Dobbs: Then TechBuddy says,
[11:13] Bob Dobbs: very good.
[11:15] Bob Dobbs: Perfect algorithms that are always correcting themselves.
[11:18] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[11:19] Bob Dobbs: an algorithm is a prose de pattern.
[11:23] Bob Dobbs: I hope I got that right when he said it.
[11:26] Bob Dobbs: I don't remember checking,
[11:27] Bob Dobbs: but I think it was that.
[11:30] Bob Dobbs: It's a prose de pattern of known outcomes that are prognosticated as a future reality.
[11:35] Bob Dobbs: So they're saying this loop occurs.
[11:37] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[11:38] Bob Dobbs: what does that mean?
[11:39] Bob Dobbs: Is that what an algorithm is?
[11:42] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[11:43] Cameron McEwen: one way of looking at an algorithm,
[11:44] Cameron McEwen: certainly.
[11:45] Cameron McEwen: But let me just rephrase that sentence as I read it.
[11:50] Cameron McEwen: He says an algorithm is a prose pattern.
[11:53] Cameron McEwen: I think prose is another word for linear.
[11:56] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[11:57] Cameron McEwen: So because prose either as spoken or written is linear.
[12:04] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[12:04] Bob Dobbs: So that would refer to the line-by-line making of code that...
[12:11] Bob Dobbs: programmers do,
[12:12] Bob Dobbs: right?
[12:15] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[12:16] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[12:17] Cameron McEwen: it could,
[12:18] Cameron McEwen: but an algorithm isn't necessarily code.
[12:23] Cameron McEwen: An algorithm is a method.
[12:25] Cameron McEwen: It's a way of getting from A to B.
[12:30] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[12:30] Bob Dobbs: but that's going from A to B.
[12:31] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[12:34] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[12:34] Bob Dobbs: so I understand.
[12:37] Cameron McEwen: As he himself says,
[12:40] Cameron McEwen: Pattern of known outcomes,
[12:42] Bob Dobbs: right?
[12:43] Cameron McEwen: So that's what an algorithm is.
[12:45] Cameron McEwen: An algorithm states a known process.
[12:51] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[12:51] Cameron McEwen: That's why it's so powerful.
[12:54] Bob Dobbs: And it's projected as a future reality.
[12:56] Bob Dobbs: That's the illusion of linearity.
[13:00] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[13:02] Cameron McEwen: well,
[13:02] Cameron McEwen: you say it's an illusion,
[13:04] Cameron McEwen: but it's a very powerful reality.
[13:06] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[13:07] Cameron McEwen: Figuring out algorithms is...
[13:10] Cameron McEwen: how the tech world works.
[13:14] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[13:15] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[13:15] Cameron McEwen: As he says,
[13:16] Cameron McEwen: perfect algorithms that are always correcting themselves.
[13:20] Cameron McEwen: So,
[13:20] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[13:21] Cameron McEwen: if you think of the iPhone operating system,
[13:30] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[13:30] Cameron McEwen: if you go back a generation or two of iPhones that haven't been updated,
[13:40] Cameron McEwen: And you use them.
[13:41] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[13:41] Cameron McEwen: it's just they seem very clunky,
[13:44] Cameron McEwen: right?
[13:44] Cameron McEwen: Or old computers are very clunky.
[13:48] Cameron McEwen: And that's because the algorithms that would represent shortcuts weren't figured out.
[13:56] Cameron McEwen: So the way from going to A to B was very long.
[14:00] Cameron McEwen: And what happens when people are doing code and improving code...
[14:10] Cameron McEwen: Improving technology is that they find shortcuts between
[14:14] Cameron McEwen: A and B that are able to get rid of a lot of the clunkiness.
[14:19] Cameron McEwen: And that's what we're doing.
[14:23] Cameron McEwen: So the tech body says perfect algorithm,
[14:26] Cameron McEwen: always correcting themselves.
[14:28] Cameron McEwen: An algorithm is a prose pattern of known outcomes that are prognosticated as a future reality.
[14:36] Cameron McEwen: So they're saying this loop occurs.
[14:39] Cameron McEwen: What's interesting is that
[14:41] Cameron McEwen: Burroughs is a linear pattern,
[14:45] Cameron McEwen: and then for some reason he goes over to loop,
[14:49] Cameron McEwen: which is not linear.
[14:53] Cameron McEwen: This is characteristic of humans.
[14:57] Cameron McEwen: Humans attempt to proceed in a certain manner that is known to them and that is governed by them.
[15:14] Cameron McEwen: And fate or the world.
[15:20] Cameron McEwen: intervenes and knocks them out of their perfect algorithm.
[15:29] Bob Dobbs: Knocks them out of their loop,
[15:31] Bob Dobbs: is the phrase.
[15:31] Cameron McEwen: That's right.
[15:33] Cameron McEwen: That is correct.
[15:34] Cameron McEwen: So what the tech body is saying here is that you can have all of the perfect algorithms that you want,
[15:44] Cameron McEwen: but it's not going to create the world that you think.
[15:49] Cameron McEwen: you're creating.
[15:50] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[15:50] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[15:51] Cameron McEwen: Number one.
[15:52] Cameron McEwen: But he's also saying another thing that's very interesting.
[15:56] Cameron McEwen: He's also saying that when you have these algorithms that are always correcting themselves,
[16:06] Cameron McEwen: it's very easy to fall into a world that is only those algorithms.
[16:15] Cameron McEwen: And so here,
[16:17] Cameron McEwen: loop is a negative thing.
[16:19] Cameron McEwen: And in fact,
[16:20] Cameron McEwen: it returns to the critique of the Gutenberg Galaxy that was made just before this interview.
[16:28] Cameron McEwen: Because here,
[16:30] Cameron McEwen: if the loop is construed as the conflation of algorithms or the conflation of the present and the future through algorithms,
[16:45] Cameron McEwen: then you're into the Gutenberg.
[16:48] Cameron McEwen: perspective of conflation.
[16:53] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[16:53] Bob Dobbs: one time after seminar,
[16:55] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan was talking to some people and he made a circle on his palm and he said the circle is visual space.
[17:03] Bob Dobbs: Would you agree with that?
[17:04] Bob Dobbs: The circle is visual space?
[17:07] Bob Dobbs: All right.
[17:07] Bob Dobbs: So is that a loop?
[17:10] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[17:11] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.
[17:12] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[17:13] Cameron McEwen: But the loop also...
[17:18] Cameron McEwen: exceeds itself,
[17:19] Cameron McEwen: right?
[17:20] Cameron McEwen: Because the Gutenberg Galaxy is linear,
[17:23] Cameron McEwen: when it is seen as a loop coming back to itself,
[17:28] Cameron McEwen: it also exceeds itself,
[17:31] Cameron McEwen: right?
[17:31] Cameron McEwen: It's also a leap.
[17:33] Cameron McEwen: Loop and leap are probably etymologically identical.
[17:38] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[17:39] Bob Dobbs: So it's a linear thing.
[17:42] Bob Dobbs: So when McLuhan would posit visual cultures linear and
[17:48] Bob Dobbs: Oral tribal cultures thought in cycles,
[17:51] Bob Dobbs: one would tend to think of cycle as a circle.
[17:54] Bob Dobbs: So when he said the circle was visual space,
[17:56] Bob Dobbs: that seemed odd to me at that moment.
[17:59] Bob Dobbs: And then later I think I accepted it or understood it better.
[18:04] Cameron McEwen: That's because it has multiple meanings.
[18:10] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[18:11] Bob Dobbs: and maybe the saying tribal cultures...
[18:17] Bob Dobbs: thinking cycles that's a that's a projection by literate anthropologists or something back on them yeah i think that's probably true yeah it's not because it's cyclical they're
[18:33] Cameron McEwen: very involved with nature the main thing is that there are there are or were millions of oral cultures yeah and and so to say that
[18:47] Cameron McEwen: oral culture was circular cyclic or whatever that's a conflation typical of the Gutenberg galaxy yep yep a conflation from plurality to singularity yeah so in other words conflation do
[19:05] Bob Dobbs: you think that books will completely disappear as a means of knowing just occurred
[19:15] Cameron McEwen: Sure.
[19:15] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[19:16] Cameron McEwen: if you're talking,
[19:18] Cameron McEwen: if the world survives and is still around in a few centuries,
[19:24] Cameron McEwen: then of course there'll be no books.
[19:26] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[19:29] Bob Dobbs: Because Ian says the printing press brought in the dark age.
[19:32] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan once or twice said that,
[19:34] Bob Dobbs: called the Industrial Revolution the fall,
[19:36] Bob Dobbs: the printing press the fall,
[19:38] Bob Dobbs: original sin.
[19:39] Bob Dobbs: But he tended not to.
[19:42] Bob Dobbs: emphasize that too much because people got into value judgment and thought that he was putting down the book.
[19:48] Bob Dobbs: He said the book had certain services and just it's got a problem when the electric aid supersedes it.
[19:56] Bob Dobbs: So,
[19:57] Bob Dobbs: but yeah,
[19:58] Bob Dobbs: he seems...
[20:00] Cameron McEwen: When he said that the industrial aid was the fault of man and stuff like that,
[20:06] Cameron McEwen: he was criticizing himself.
[20:09] Cameron McEwen: I believe there's a
[20:12] Cameron McEwen: passage about that in the
[20:14] Cameron McEwen: Playboy interview.
[20:16] Cameron McEwen: And what he says is that in saying that he himself was falling prey to a literary perspective and that he found,
[20:30] Cameron McEwen: looking back,
[20:31] Cameron McEwen: he finds that point of view comical.
[20:35] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[20:35] Bob Dobbs: that was the criticism of the mechanical bride.
[20:40] Bob Dobbs: It came out of that attitude.
[20:42] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[20:43] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[20:45] Bob Dobbs: So,
[20:48] Bob Dobbs: but as he,
[20:50] Bob Dobbs: I saw him speak to a bunch of psychologists in
[20:53] Bob Dobbs: September 78 in Toronto,
[20:55] Bob Dobbs: and he threw in a value judgment,
[20:58] Bob Dobbs: and he then had to say,
[21:01] Bob Dobbs: I tend not to make value judgments.
[21:03] Bob Dobbs: Sometimes I sneak one in.
[21:07] Cameron McEwen: That's a good line.
[21:08] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[21:09] Bob Dobbs: So that,
[21:09] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[21:10] Bob Dobbs: he was comprehensive.
[21:11] Bob Dobbs: He wasn't.
[21:12] Bob Dobbs: sticking he what could you say he he couldn't be so detached about not doing value judgments he admitted he was a visual man and he had to do it every now and then yeah but I mean think of it this way if
[21:30] Cameron McEwen: you if you have let's say a chemist and he he or she is working away in the lab on something very complicated
[21:40] Cameron McEwen: And then they go home and the wife says,
[21:47] Cameron McEwen: would you make me some tea?
[21:50] Cameron McEwen: The chemist doesn't start fooling around with complicated formulas and wondering what's in the tea chemically and all that stuff.
[22:02] Cameron McEwen: He just makes tea.
[22:04] Cameron McEwen: So when McLuhan says that I don't deal in value judgments,
[22:08] Cameron McEwen: he's talking about...
[22:09] Cameron McEwen: I don't deal in value judgment as a technical matter.
[22:15] Cameron McEwen: In dealing with his kids and dealing with the world and dealing with this benign freeway and on he's always making value judgment.
[22:25] Cameron McEwen: There are different aspects of a person's life and they need to be kept separate.
[22:33] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[22:34] Cameron McEwen: only a Cameron McEwen would conflate them all.
[22:38] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[22:38] Bob Dobbs: he would say,
[22:39] Bob Dobbs: I'm talking technically.
[22:42] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.
[22:43] Bob Dobbs: He was doing his science.
[22:45] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[22:46] Bob Dobbs: Innis
[22:47] Bob Dobbs: Schaeffer dialogue,
[22:49] Bob Dobbs: it's funny what's happening.
[22:51] Bob Dobbs: There's a language problem.
[22:52] Bob Dobbs: Derek is there translating for McLuhan,
[22:55] Bob Dobbs: and a woman is translating for Schaeffer.
[22:57] Bob Dobbs: But Schaeffer doesn't seem too interested in getting what McLuhan saying,
[23:02] Bob Dobbs: and he's projecting at McLuhan.
[23:04] Bob Dobbs: But then McLuhan said,
[23:05] Bob Dobbs: well,
[23:06] Bob Dobbs: I'm not a mystic.
[23:07] Bob Dobbs: I'm an esoteric observer.
[23:11] Cameron McEwen: Never heard that before.
[23:13] Cameron McEwen: No,
[23:13] Cameron McEwen: that's funny.
[23:15] Bob Dobbs: And for the Frenchman,
[23:17] Bob Dobbs: you know what the Al McClure would say.
[23:19] Bob Dobbs: So it's really hilarious,
[23:20] Bob Dobbs: the interaction.
[23:21] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[23:21] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[23:22] Cameron McEwen: But notice how that exactly relates to what we were saying just a few minutes ago,
[23:26] Cameron McEwen: namely that humans always come from some view of the event horizon.
[23:36] Cameron McEwen: When McLuhan says that he's an esoteric observer,
[23:40] Cameron McEwen: he's saying,
[23:42] Cameron McEwen: I'm a special kind of observer that knows he's coming from the event horizon.
[23:47] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[23:48] Bob Dobbs: I'm conscious.
[23:48] Cameron McEwen: That's what esoteric means in that context.
[23:51] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[23:52] Bob Dobbs: he's aware of the process or the limitations or the bias.
[23:56] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[23:57] Cameron McEwen: you could say he's aware of the synchronic aspect of human being.
[24:02] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[24:04] Bob Dobbs: which was an update.
[24:05] Bob Dobbs: He was updating human wisdom,
[24:07] Bob Dobbs: maybe the same characteristic in all sages,
[24:12] Bob Dobbs: but it was a bit more challenging to be a sage in our time.
[24:17] Cameron McEwen: Correct,
[24:18] Cameron McEwen: correct.
[24:19] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[24:19] Bob Dobbs: required new Cosmic Awareness.
[24:22] Cameron McEwen: Sometimes we've talked about the fact,
[24:25] Cameron McEwen: or at least what I regard as a fact,
[24:27] Cameron McEwen: that people don't have to outthink somebody like Plato.
[24:35] Cameron McEwen: What they need to be able to do is communicate what somebody like Plato already knew.
[24:42] Cameron McEwen: And the 2,500 years of
[24:45] Cameron McEwen: Western history is,
[24:48] Cameron McEwen: in one reading,
[24:49] Cameron McEwen: is simply the failure of all of the attempts to do that.
[24:55] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[24:57] Bob Dobbs: and that's the next line.
[24:59] Bob Dobbs: The problem is they're overthinking the thought now,
[25:03] Bob Dobbs: sounds like what you're saying.
[25:06] Bob Dobbs: You didn't say overthinking,
[25:08] Bob Dobbs: did you?
[25:09] Cameron McEwen: No,
[25:09] Cameron McEwen: but we've been talking about conflation.
[25:12] Cameron McEwen: And I think what he means by overthinking the thought is conflation.
[25:17] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[25:18] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[25:18] Bob Dobbs: so let's go into this.
[25:21] Bob Dobbs: Do you want to read it for a bit?
[25:24] Cameron McEwen: I can do.
[25:26] Cameron McEwen: Shall I go word by word,
[25:28] Cameron McEwen: or can I skip around a bit?
[25:30] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[25:30] Bob Dobbs: no,
[25:31] Bob Dobbs: let's go word by word,
[25:31] Bob Dobbs: then skip around.
[25:34] Cameron McEwen: All right.
[25:36] Cameron McEwen: The problem is they're overthinking the thought now.
[25:39] Cameron McEwen: That's pre-cli- pro- sorry.
[25:41] Cameron McEwen: That's precluding that humans are making a condition that the algorithms are figuring out.
[25:50] Cameron McEwen: That's not the case anymore.
[25:52] Cameron McEwen: Now the algorithms are figuring out the algorithms.
[25:56] Cameron McEwen: It's leaving the human condition.
[25:58] Cameron McEwen: It's not going to be in humans'
[26:00] Cameron McEwen: hands anymore.
[26:01] Cameron McEwen: It's sense-making.
[26:03] Cameron McEwen: Now you get updates.
[26:04] Cameron McEwen: They send you an update.
[26:05] Cameron McEwen: You download it.
[26:06] Cameron McEwen: Where does it come from?
[26:07] Cameron McEwen: Who knows?
[26:08] Cameron McEwen: Nobody knows.
[26:09] Cameron McEwen: operating systems are no longer driven from
[26:13] Cameron McEwen: Cupertino,
[26:14] Cameron McEwen: California anymore.
[26:16] Cameron McEwen: They used to be.
[26:17] Cameron McEwen: They don't come from there anymore.
[26:19] Cameron McEwen: The machines are driving this now,
[26:21] Cameron McEwen: not you.
[26:23] Bob Dobbs: What would
[26:24] Bob Dobbs: Zuckerberg say about that?
[26:29] Bob Dobbs: Does he say as much?
[26:33] Bob Dobbs: I like to quote how
[26:35] Bob Dobbs: Zuckerberg said,
[26:35] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[26:36] Bob Dobbs: we're doing what we're doing.
[26:38] Bob Dobbs: We don't know everything that's happening.
[26:41] Bob Dobbs: He's pleaded ignorance a couple of times in Congress.
[26:47] Bob Dobbs: Is he aware of this?
[26:48] Bob Dobbs: Is he aware the tech body's doing it all now?
[26:52] Cameron McEwen: Who knows?
[26:53] Cameron McEwen: I know nothing about
[26:55] Cameron McEwen: Zuckerberg or what he says.
[26:59] Cameron McEwen: I pay literally no attention to that.
[27:03] Bob Dobbs: Why wouldn't you?
[27:03] Bob Dobbs: Because they're gadget lovers?
[27:06] Bob Dobbs: They're embedded?
[27:07] Bob Dobbs: They can't know?
[27:10] Cameron McEwen: I just think that the power that
[27:14] Cameron McEwen: Facebook and Twitter and Google and
[27:17] Cameron McEwen: Apple and all these social media mechanisms have is absurd.
[27:27] Cameron McEwen: And it's what the world is sort of caught up in.
[27:33] Cameron McEwen: And I don't want to be caught up in it.
[27:36] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[27:36] Bob Dobbs: So
[27:37] Cameron McEwen: I just take my distance.
[27:39] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[27:39] Bob Dobbs: What is the absurdity?
[27:40] Bob Dobbs: Can you define it?
[27:44] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[27:44] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[27:44] Cameron McEwen: the absurdity is the people have thought now for three or four centuries that we're making great,
[27:55] Cameron McEwen: quote-unquote,
[27:55] Cameron McEwen: progress.
[27:58] Cameron McEwen: Women can vote.
[28:00] Cameron McEwen: We have intricate operations on our bodies.
[28:05] Cameron McEwen: We live longer.
[28:07] Cameron McEwen: We know about the edge of the universe,
[28:10] Cameron McEwen: on and on and on.
[28:13] Cameron McEwen: But this great progress that we're making may be suicidal.
[28:19] Cameron McEwen: We may be in the last rows of human beings.
[28:28] Cameron McEwen: So it seems to me that we need to...
[28:36] Cameron McEwen: The human beings desperately need to take a hiatus,
[28:44] Cameron McEwen: take a hyphenation away from that technological conflation and attempt to find themselves again.
[29:00] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[29:00] Bob Dobbs: I don't think you are a pessimist.
[29:04] Bob Dobbs: You think there's a chance.
[29:05] Bob Dobbs: for humans not to wipe them out.
[29:08] Bob Dobbs: But you don't see that happening right now.
[29:13] Bob Dobbs: You don't see it.
[29:14] Bob Dobbs: You sound pessimistic occasionally when we talk.
[29:19] Bob Dobbs: You're not too optimistic about how it's going to turn out.
[29:23] Bob Dobbs: But you personally are sort of optimistic if you were given a chance to help or articulate or explain.
[29:32] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[29:33] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan...
[29:33] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan used to say that he was neither an optimist nor a pessimist,
[29:37] Cameron McEwen: right?
[29:37] Bob Dobbs: Great.
[29:38] Bob Dobbs: He's apocalyptic.
[29:40] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[29:40] Bob Dobbs: Is that what you were?
[29:43] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[29:43] Cameron McEwen: maybe,
[29:43] Cameron McEwen: but only in the sense of attempting to draw back the curtain on something that's important to see.
[29:51] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[29:53] Bob Dobbs: not the Armageddon meaning of apocalyptic,
[29:57] Bob Dobbs: that people got wrong.
[30:02] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[30:02] Bob Dobbs: so the operating systems are no longer driven from Cupertino.
[30:07] Bob Dobbs: They used to be.
[30:07] Bob Dobbs: They don't come from there anymore.
[30:09] Bob Dobbs: The machines are driving this now,
[30:10] Bob Dobbs: not you.
[30:11] Bob Dobbs: Would you agree with the term machines?
[30:14] Bob Dobbs: Remember how McLuhan thought that was too mechanical?
[30:16] Bob Dobbs: And then some of the postmodernists used the term machinic,
[30:20] Bob Dobbs: which was their version of electricity as organic,
[30:26] Bob Dobbs: not mechanical.
[30:28] Bob Dobbs: So
[30:29] Bob Dobbs: I don't like the way the tech body uses the word machines,
[30:33] Bob Dobbs: but they're just talking to anybody,
[30:37] Bob Dobbs: so they're not going to be particular or sophisticated,
[30:40] Bob Dobbs: maybe.
[30:40] Bob Dobbs: What do you say?
[30:41] Bob Dobbs: Do you mind the word machines being said?
[30:44] Cameron McEwen: No,
[30:44] Cameron McEwen: I think it's pretty precise.
[30:46] Cameron McEwen: It's being used in the sense of nothing to do with the human condition.
[30:53] Cameron McEwen: He says earlier in the paragraph,
[30:55] Cameron McEwen: you're leaving the human condition.
[30:59] Cameron McEwen: And just as you need a hyphen in any body,
[31:06] Cameron McEwen: the human condition is hyphenated.
[31:10] Cameron McEwen: And when it's no longer hyphenated or conflated,
[31:14] Cameron McEwen: then you're leaving the human condition.
[31:16] Cameron McEwen: And what are you left with?
[31:18] Cameron McEwen: You're left with machines.
[31:19] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[31:22] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[31:23] Bob Dobbs: Self-correcting technology that allows a machine to drive a car to take every condition that could occur while driving a car and allow a conclusion to be rendered that would make it a perfect driving experience.
[31:36] Bob Dobbs: Humans aren't involved in that application.
[31:39] Bob Dobbs: You're seeing YouTubes of people lying down asleep in their cars,
[31:43] Bob Dobbs: going 90 miles an hour down the highway,
[31:46] Bob Dobbs: and two people in the car sound asleep.
[31:48] Bob Dobbs: People have taken videos of them,
[31:50] Bob Dobbs: but the car is driving.
[31:52] Bob Dobbs: Because of what Marshall McLuhan told you when he told you,
[31:55] Bob Dobbs: he explained to you that the medium was the message,
[31:59] Bob Dobbs: that the confines of what you saw,
[32:01] Bob Dobbs: or that the confines of what you saw as reality was actually surreal.
[32:06] Bob Dobbs: Everything left when they took a leap.
[32:09] Bob Dobbs: When you had an open system,
[32:11] Bob Dobbs: what you call the Internet,
[32:12] Bob Dobbs: the only thing that's included in that is net.
[32:15] Bob Dobbs: They set a net.
[32:16] Bob Dobbs: They don't think.
[32:18] Bob Dobbs: That's why when the heads of these companies that are responsible for this,
[32:21] Bob Dobbs: they go before Congress and they scratch their heads and go,
[32:24] Bob Dobbs: oh,
[32:24] Bob Dobbs: well,
[32:24] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[32:25] Bob Dobbs: we don't know what happened.
[32:27] Bob Dobbs: That's what I was thinking of.
[32:29] Bob Dobbs: I forgot that was part of the script here.
[32:33] Cameron McEwen: Notice that in the tech bodies,
[32:38] Cameron McEwen: observations here.
[32:41] Cameron McEwen: He's always speaking in,
[32:45] Cameron McEwen: you could say,
[32:45] Cameron McEwen: a double way.
[32:48] Cameron McEwen: You can't understand what he's saying on one level only.
[32:53] Cameron McEwen: So when he says,
[32:54] Cameron McEwen: for example,
[32:55] Cameron McEwen: everything left when they took a leap on the literal level,
[33:00] Cameron McEwen: that leap was sort of into absolute mechanization.
[33:08] Cameron McEwen: And it was the reality is a surreality.
[33:16] Cameron McEwen: But on the other hand,
[33:18] Cameron McEwen: humans are always taking a leap and reality is always surreal.
[33:24] Cameron McEwen: And so what's going on here has this double meaning,
[33:30] Cameron McEwen: double reading and the fate of people,
[33:36] Cameron McEwen: you could say.
[33:37] Cameron McEwen: is that we've lost the ability to read double.
[33:41] Cameron McEwen: We've confined ourselves to reading in a singular way,
[33:46] Cameron McEwen: and that singular way might be called the algorithm.
[33:50] Cameron McEwen: And so what's being talked about here is closely related to what was talked about just a minute ago.
[33:57] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[33:58] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[33:59] Bob Dobbs: I or the tech body tends to repeat itself colorfully.
[34:04] Bob Dobbs: It'll come up with another.
[34:06] Bob Dobbs: anecdote or something,
[34:07] Bob Dobbs: but it comes back to the same point.
[34:11] Bob Dobbs: So he then goes back to the original beginning of the tech body in some ways.
[34:19] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[34:19] Bob Dobbs: that's Innis thing.
[34:21] Bob Dobbs: I list the characteristics at some point,
[34:25] Bob Dobbs: the inventory of the evolving making of the tech body.
[34:30] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[34:31] Cameron McEwen: I think that was back,
[34:32] Cameron McEwen: and that's before this appendix.
[34:36] Cameron McEwen: But it's towards the end of the book before the appendix,
[34:41] Cameron McEwen: in the 170s somewhere maybe.
[34:44] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[34:44] Bob Dobbs: there it is.
[34:44] Bob Dobbs: The Technological Evolution of the Tech Body,
[34:47] Bob Dobbs: page 179.
[34:48] Bob Dobbs: Number one is Pong and then Atari.
[34:51] Bob Dobbs: So he's conscious or it's conscious of saying Pong,
[34:55] Bob Dobbs: so it comes back to Pong and full circle kind of thing.
[35:00] Bob Dobbs: So it says...
[35:04] Bob Dobbs: In order for Pong to work,
[35:05] Bob Dobbs: humans had to engage it.
[35:07] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[35:07] Bob Dobbs: that's where it started.
[35:09] Bob Dobbs: But if a human didn't engage it,
[35:11] Bob Dobbs: it had no value.
[35:12] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[35:13] Bob Dobbs: some would say that's like a book that didn't get read.
[35:15] Bob Dobbs: It had no value,
[35:16] Bob Dobbs: like fitting its wake.
[35:18] Bob Dobbs: It doesn't work like that.
[35:19] Bob Dobbs: There aren't people that are prescribed to this.
[35:22] Bob Dobbs: People take credit for it.
[35:23] Bob Dobbs: It was always feeding itself.
[35:25] Bob Dobbs: The power that flew itself was always there.
[35:28] Bob Dobbs: People were starting from Pong.
[35:31] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[35:32] Bob Dobbs: there's just...
[35:32] Bob Dobbs: Two more paragraphs.
[35:35] Bob Dobbs: But you want to say something?
[35:37] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[35:37] Cameron McEwen: you just what you just read has some important stuff.
[35:40] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[35:40] Cameron McEwen: For example,
[35:42] Cameron McEwen: the power that flew itself.
[35:44] Cameron McEwen: Now,
[35:45] Cameron McEwen: when anybody in the tech body were speaking,
[35:48] Cameron McEwen: they kept coming back to power.
[35:51] Cameron McEwen: And
[35:53] Cameron McEwen: I pointed out at the time that that's where Nietzsche came to as well.
[35:57] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[35:58] Cameron McEwen: the book,
[35:59] Cameron McEwen: the book he was writing when he went insane,
[36:03] Cameron McEwen: was called the will to power.
[36:06] Cameron McEwen: And the will to power,
[36:09] Cameron McEwen: at least according to Heidegger,
[36:10] Cameron McEwen: and I think Heidegger was correct,
[36:12] Cameron McEwen: is that the will to power is really the power to power.
[36:19] Cameron McEwen: It's a conflation.
[36:21] Cameron McEwen: So the power that flew itself is coming back to what we were talking about with
[36:27] Cameron McEwen: Gutenberg Galaxy,
[36:28] Cameron McEwen: the conflation,
[36:31] Cameron McEwen: and
[36:32] Cameron McEwen: He says the power that flew itself was always there.
[36:35] Cameron McEwen: Correct.
[36:37] Cameron McEwen: The
[36:38] Cameron McEwen: Gutenberg Galaxy is a perennial possibility for people to think through,
[36:48] Cameron McEwen: you could say.
[36:50] Cameron McEwen: And so he says people,
[36:53] Cameron McEwen: there aren't people that are prescribed to this.
[36:57] Cameron McEwen: What's that mean?
[36:57] Cameron McEwen: It means that people are free.
[36:59] Cameron McEwen: They don't have to.
[37:01] Cameron McEwen: think this way,
[37:02] Cameron McEwen: but they do.
[37:02] Cameron McEwen: They're caught up in it in a net.
[37:04] Cameron McEwen: And he says,
[37:06] Cameron McEwen: people take credit for it.
[37:09] Bob Dobbs: What the hell?
[37:11] Cameron McEwen: It's ridiculous.
[37:15] Bob Dobbs: That's pretty aware of this tech body.
[37:18] Cameron McEwen: Yes.
[37:19] Bob Dobbs: It was always feeding itself.
[37:20] Bob Dobbs: The power that flew itself was always there.
[37:22] Bob Dobbs: Is the power that flew itself,
[37:25] Bob Dobbs: that's Cameron McEwen?
[37:27] Cameron McEwen: I think so.
[37:28] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[37:28] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[37:28] Cameron McEwen: but remember,
[37:29] Cameron McEwen: he's always speaking double.
[37:32] Cameron McEwen: Right,
[37:32] Cameron McEwen: so the power that flew itself in one way is a conflation,
[37:41] Cameron McEwen: and in another way,
[37:43] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[37:43] Cameron McEwen: if it's the power that flew itself is a way of saying that it's separated from people.
[37:52] Cameron McEwen: And he says there aren't people anymore and all that sort of stuff.
[37:56] Cameron McEwen: So the power of the flu itself,
[37:58] Cameron McEwen: in a way,
[38:00] Cameron McEwen: is...
[38:01] Cameron McEwen: saying that people don't have to be subject to this,
[38:09] Cameron McEwen: but they submit themselves to it.
[38:13] Cameron McEwen: And that's sort of their suicidal fate.
[38:18] Bob Dobbs: I was listening to an interview with Captain Beefheart.
[38:21] Bob Dobbs: You ever heard of him?
[38:23] Cameron McEwen: Yes.
[38:24] Bob Dobbs: And he isn't...
[38:25] Cameron McEwen: That was from the 70s,
[38:27] Cameron McEwen: I guess,
[38:27] Cameron McEwen: right?
[38:28] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[38:28] Bob Dobbs: his big album came out in 69,
[38:30] Bob Dobbs: Trout Mask Replica,
[38:31] Bob Dobbs: and he started in 66.
[38:33] Bob Dobbs: But that album makes it top.
[38:35] Cameron McEwen: I was only a year off.
[38:37] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[38:38] Bob Dobbs: no,
[38:38] Bob Dobbs: that's good.
[38:38] Bob Dobbs: No,
[38:39] Bob Dobbs: he said 70s plural.
[38:40] Bob Dobbs: There were a lot of albums in the 70s.
[38:43] Bob Dobbs: But the Trout Mask Replica is considered one of the top albums of all time,
[38:47] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[38:47] Bob Dobbs: in top 100,
[38:50] Bob Dobbs: top 500.
[38:50] Bob Dobbs: So it's a unique album.
[38:52] Bob Dobbs: So it's interesting.
[38:53] Bob Dobbs: He was interviewed around that time.
[38:56] Bob Dobbs: And he says...
[38:58] Bob Dobbs: I don't know why people gave up looking at Van Gogh paintings and started driving around in Cadillacs.
[39:10] Bob Dobbs: I thought that was pretty mediaecological or an Eskimo talking.
[39:16] Bob Dobbs: The act of looking at paintings or attending to the Gutenberg Arts was equal to later technologies.
[39:24] Bob Dobbs: We chose...
[39:26] Bob Dobbs: Stop looking at painting and start driving around in the car.
[39:29] Bob Dobbs: It's a different kind of aesthetic experience.
[39:31] Bob Dobbs: I found that pretty cute,
[39:33] Bob Dobbs: him saying that.
[39:34] Bob Dobbs: Do you find that cute?
[39:36] Bob Dobbs: Sure.
[39:39] Cameron McEwen: Looking at a
[39:41] Cameron McEwen: Van Gogh painting is not just a Cameron McEwen thing.
[39:47] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[39:48] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[39:48] Cameron McEwen: So there's many ways of looking at such a painting.
[39:54] Cameron McEwen: And
[39:57] Cameron McEwen: I think one of the things that the captain was saying is that the...
[40:05] Cameron McEwen: Even in the 19th century,
[40:08] Cameron McEwen: there was a complexity that we're now losing.
[40:13] Cameron McEwen: And I noticed that McLuhan often used the Cadillac image himself.
[40:17] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[40:19] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[40:19] Bob Dobbs: I once asked Beefheart.
[40:21] Bob Dobbs: I know exactly.
[40:24] Bob Dobbs: I went out to visit him at his home in a desert,
[40:27] Bob Dobbs: Mojave Desert,
[40:28] Bob Dobbs: near Lancaster or in Lancaster,
[40:31] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[40:32] Bob Dobbs: outside of L.A.
[40:33] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[40:34] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[40:35] Bob Dobbs: Then we drove,
[40:36] Bob Dobbs: he had to go to a rehearsal,
[40:38] Bob Dobbs: so we drove back into the Van Nuys
[40:40] Bob Dobbs: Valley. Van Nuys?
[40:42] Bob Dobbs: N-U-Y-S,
[40:43] Bob Dobbs: right?
[40:44] Bob Dobbs: Van Nuys.
[40:44] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[40:45] Cameron McEwen: Van Nuys.
[40:46] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[40:46] Bob Dobbs: so
[40:48] Bob Dobbs: I was always trying to get people,
[40:49] Bob Dobbs: these kind of people,
[40:50] Bob Dobbs: to see what they knew about McLuhan.
[40:53] Bob Dobbs: So I said,
[40:53] Bob Dobbs: so have you read any McLuhan,
[40:56] Bob Dobbs: or what do you think of McLuhan?
[40:58] Bob Dobbs: I bring it up,
[40:58] Bob Dobbs: and he goes,
[40:59] Bob Dobbs: he thinks for a second,
[41:00] Bob Dobbs: he goes,
[41:01] Bob Dobbs: well,
[41:01] Bob Dobbs: he's tall.
[41:06] Bob Dobbs: Which I thought was interesting.
[41:07] Bob Dobbs: Where did he see that he was tall?
[41:09] Bob Dobbs: I guess he looked like he was tall in any footage because a lot of people would be shorter than him,
[41:14] Bob Dobbs: right?
[41:15] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[41:16] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[41:16] Bob Dobbs: but that's Beefheart's,
[41:19] Bob Dobbs: in a way,
[41:19] Bob Dobbs: childlike perception,
[41:21] Bob Dobbs: you know?
[41:22] Bob Dobbs: He's tall.
[41:24] Bob Dobbs: What do you think of McLuhan?
[41:24] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[41:24] Bob Dobbs: he's a tall guy.
[41:26] Bob Dobbs: Interesting,
[41:27] Bob Dobbs: eh?
[41:27] Bob Dobbs: That's the anti-environment,
[41:28] Bob Dobbs: being tall.
[41:29] Bob Dobbs: It could explain McLuhan inverse Gutenberg.
[41:34] Cameron McEwen: bird's eye view of everything yeah being tall as you often point out he said that to study media you have to you have to be superior yeah you have to have a superiority pose you got to be arrogant is the quote at the beginning of this great book so
[41:54] Bob Dobbs: um well that's great that paragraph the power of the flu itself was always there people were starting from pong i'm glad you're getting the double levels so I'm out.
[42:03] Bob Dobbs: How is he going to end or it?
[42:09] Bob Dobbs: Remember,
[42:10] Bob Dobbs: I'm just talking to something.
[42:12] Bob Dobbs: You could say it's iON,
[42:14] Bob Dobbs: but iON says it's not us,
[42:15] Bob Dobbs: it's the tech body.
[42:16] Bob Dobbs: I'm very impressed with what's being said here.
[42:18] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[42:20] Cameron McEwen: But,
[42:21] Cameron McEwen: Bob,
[42:22] Cameron McEwen: I brought that up at the very beginning of the conversation,
[42:26] Cameron McEwen: the complexity of the persons,
[42:29] Cameron McEwen: right?
[42:29] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[42:30] Cameron McEwen: the...
[42:31] Cameron McEwen: Who knows what the relationship between I and a tech body is?
[42:34] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[42:36] Cameron McEwen: And then you are transcribing what you take them to be saying.
[42:43] Cameron McEwen: And probably in some cases,
[42:44] Cameron McEwen: you don't even know who was saying it.
[42:47] Cameron McEwen: And in other cases,
[42:49] Cameron McEwen: you're not exactly sure what word.
[42:52] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[42:52] Cameron McEwen: And then you yourself are part of the conversation somehow.
[42:59] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[43:00] Cameron McEwen: So the...
[43:01] Cameron McEwen: The play of authorship,
[43:03] Cameron McEwen: as you might call it,
[43:05] Cameron McEwen: is very complex here.
[43:07] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[43:07] Bob Dobbs: and I can do it,
[43:09] Bob Dobbs: and probably TechBody.
[43:11] Bob Dobbs: They're feeding off me,
[43:13] Bob Dobbs: what I'm thinking.
[43:15] Bob Dobbs: They know what I'm thinking.
[43:18] Cameron McEwen: They probably think the opposite.
[43:21] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[43:21] Bob Dobbs: but they are presenting a response to me based on what they know I think,
[43:29] Bob Dobbs: or what my biases are.
[43:32] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[43:34] Bob Dobbs: maybe.
[43:35] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[43:35] Bob Dobbs: You can read the second last one.
[43:37] Bob Dobbs: No,
[43:38] Cameron McEwen: when you read,
[43:38] Cameron McEwen: it's much better,
[43:39] Cameron McEwen: Bob.
[43:39] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[43:40] Bob Dobbs: you're a lousy reader.
[43:40] Bob Dobbs: You're a very lousy reader.
[43:41] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[43:43] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[43:44] Cameron McEwen: not of all things.
[43:45] Cameron McEwen: I think there's some things I could read very well and perhaps better than you.
[43:51] Cameron McEwen: This is stuff where a certain humor is needed,
[43:56] Cameron McEwen: a certain inflection,
[43:58] Cameron McEwen: and you have it,
[43:59] Cameron McEwen: so you should read.
[44:00] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[44:00] Bob Dobbs: and it's a certain familiarity.
[44:01] Bob Dobbs: I'm more familiar with it than you are.
[44:03] Cameron McEwen: Correct.
[44:04] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[44:05] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[44:05] Bob Dobbs: And you'd be reading blind.
[44:06] Bob Dobbs: You don't know where the thing's going.
[44:08] Bob Dobbs: I've read it before.
[44:11] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[44:12] Bob Dobbs: So I decided to put the digital body in quotes.
[44:17] Bob Dobbs: I don't think they indicated the digital body as in quotes,
[44:22] Bob Dobbs: but I did it probably to indicate the model of the five bodies.
[44:27] Bob Dobbs: So digital body is chip body.
[44:29] Bob Dobbs: So...
[44:31] Bob Dobbs: Tech body says,
[44:32] Bob Dobbs: and the digital body is getting the pan shot to show how it's all set up.
[44:36] Bob Dobbs: So the digital body outdoes what they're trying to use the Android Meme to predict.
[44:41] Bob Dobbs: Present in a stage or present in a stage,
[44:46] Bob Dobbs: right?
[44:47] Bob Dobbs: Present in a stage,
[44:49] Bob Dobbs: present in a stage.
[44:50] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[44:51] Bob Dobbs: here's a perfect example.
[44:52] Bob Dobbs: It can move so seamlessly that there's no way in hell Donald J.
[44:56] Bob Dobbs: Trump ever going to be elected the city president of the United States of America.
[45:00] Bob Dobbs: As a matter of fact,
[45:01] Bob Dobbs: he was never truly elected to be president of the United States of America.
[45:04] Bob Dobbs: So we need to rewrite.
[45:06] Bob Dobbs: We need to redo.
[45:07] Bob Dobbs: Undo 45.
[45:09] Bob Dobbs: Undo 45.
[45:12] Bob Dobbs: Maybe that's the disgust with Trump the election of a big chunk of the population,
[45:19] Bob Dobbs: apparently.
[45:21] Cameron McEwen: But is that the tech body impersonating that chunk?
[45:27] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[45:28] Cameron McEwen: It's difficult to understand what's going on there in terms of the persons.
[45:33] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[45:33] Cameron McEwen: you,
[45:34] Cameron McEwen: Ion,
[45:35] Cameron McEwen: and the tech.
[45:35] Cameron McEwen: body.
[45:38] Bob Dobbs: The tech body is being lazy.
[45:41] Bob Dobbs: It's not being precise here.
[45:43] Bob Dobbs: It doesn't care to.
[45:44] Bob Dobbs: It wants to remain ambivalent,
[45:46] Bob Dobbs: ambiguous.
[45:48] Cameron McEwen: But he says that it's a perfect example,
[45:50] Cameron McEwen: but a perfect example of what?
[45:54] Bob Dobbs: Let me see.
[45:56] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[45:56] Bob Dobbs: so people were starting from Pong,
[45:59] Bob Dobbs: and the digital body is getting the pan shot to show how it's all set up.
[46:02] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[46:02] Bob Dobbs: here's an interesting point.
[46:04] Bob Dobbs: Ion's
[46:05] Bob Dobbs: said that they were always the non-physical of humanity.
[46:09] Bob Dobbs: The non-physical,
[46:11] Bob Dobbs: you might say spirit.
[46:14] Bob Dobbs: All humans were too non-physical,
[46:25] Bob Dobbs: which is what I am was.
[46:27] Bob Dobbs: But then it saw that the chip landscape could not be controlled by humans.
[46:35] Bob Dobbs: Ion said we took the opportunity to explore outside the role and see where it led.
[46:46] Bob Dobbs: It's interesting knowing that they said that the possibility of Ion,
[46:50] Bob Dobbs: which is the hercule for physical,
[47:08] Bob Dobbs: Duncan Pryde or beyond the weak.
[47:19] Bob Dobbs: No,
[47:25] Bob Dobbs: no,
[47:26] Bob Dobbs: they said that humans needed a break.
[47:30] Bob Dobbs: They originally,
[47:31] Bob Dobbs: they say that humans are eternal in the physical.
[47:35] Bob Dobbs: But they somehow mutated themselves and Phelan then didn't like being in the center and died.
[47:44] Bob Dobbs: And they died to what was called the Gap.
[47:47] Bob Dobbs: That's a Jewish term for the place,
[47:50] Bob Dobbs: the heaven that souls go to.
[47:53] Bob Dobbs: But when they saw an opportunity...
[48:05] Bob Dobbs: the Internet but didn't know enough to be able to control ignorance either and then either involved in the tech body or fun
[48:22] Bob Dobbs: awesome thing and now we have this kind of battle between and tech right ION their goal is to help people
[48:33] Bob Dobbs: uh retrieve the original wisdom and being not dying and that's what their agenda is i'm going to get tech part uh which is so i'm saying all the see what
[49:53] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[49:53] Bob Dobbs: and then...
[51:06] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[51:06] Bob Dobbs: here's a perfect example.
[51:07] Bob Dobbs: He moved so seamlessly that there's no way in hell Donald Trump is ever going to be elected.
[51:18] Bob Dobbs: And it was seamless that he wouldn't be president.
[51:31] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[51:32] Bob Dobbs: there's more now about that.
[51:36] Bob Dobbs: I ain't always fit to call him the last president.
[51:38] Bob Dobbs: I wasn't the first president when he was,
[51:41] Bob Dobbs: until he did it,
[51:42] Bob Dobbs: and after the Congress he made,
[51:46] Bob Dobbs: he's gonna be a new president.
[51:51] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[51:51] Bob Dobbs: and that's like a British Empire.
[52:09] Bob Dobbs: Like a hair.
[52:15] Bob Dobbs: And then the other day,
[52:23] Bob Dobbs: I was talking to a business.
[52:39] Bob Dobbs: And you may not be exactly how
[52:45] Bob Dobbs: Trump,
[52:46] Bob Dobbs: and even now there are so many Trump in many
[53:01] Bob Dobbs: of the laws.
[53:12] Bob Dobbs: So we need to rewrite.
[53:24] Bob Dobbs: We need to redo.
[53:42] Bob Dobbs: The non-presidents bring back a dull,
[53:52] Bob Dobbs: banal president.
[53:56] Bob Dobbs: Why does President
[54:02] Bob Dobbs: Whitehall become dull again?
[54:06] Bob Dobbs: And it seems it doesn't work.
[54:13] Bob Dobbs: Because we ain't in that world anymore.
[54:19] Bob Dobbs: There isn't even any reality.
[54:23] Bob Dobbs: What happens is that Miller states,
[54:26] Bob Dobbs: through Washington,
[54:28] Bob Dobbs: through all we did,
[54:28] Bob Dobbs: this has nothing to do with our lives,
[54:30] Bob Dobbs: we're taking over.
[54:31] Bob Dobbs: And on my webpage,
[54:35] Bob Dobbs: I and Bob...
[54:36] Bob Dobbs: Ed Long,
[54:37] Bob Dobbs: who lives in Maryland,
[54:40] Bob Dobbs: is very good at finding news items,
[54:45] Bob Dobbs: fringe news.
[54:46] Bob Dobbs: I just noticed tonight before I called you,
[54:48] Bob Dobbs: there's three different turmoil in local school boards across the country.
[54:55] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[54:55] Bob Dobbs: the people ain't putting up with it.
[54:58] Bob Dobbs: And so that's an interesting thing that I'm...
[54:59] Bob Dobbs: So,
[55:00] Bob Dobbs: I'm due 45.
[55:01] Bob Dobbs: I'm due 45.
[55:07] Bob Dobbs: ...corrections there,
[55:09] Bob Dobbs: and we need to redo.
[55:11] Bob Dobbs: The redo might be to go back,
[55:13] Bob Dobbs: but that's not going to work.
[55:14] Bob Dobbs: But undo 45.
[55:17] Bob Dobbs: So
[55:17] Bob Dobbs: I'm making fun of the idea to rewrite,
[55:20] Bob Dobbs: get back where it was,
[55:22] Bob Dobbs: where it's familiar.
[55:23] Bob Dobbs: Jump back and re-write.
[55:25] Bob Dobbs: So let's see how we end.
[55:27] Bob Dobbs: Here we go.
[55:30] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[55:34] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[56:10] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[56:11] Bob Dobbs: Bloomberg man could be held if you're being...
[56:52] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[56:53] Bob Dobbs: So,
[56:57] Bob Dobbs: right.
[56:57] Bob Dobbs: And I remember for me,
[56:59] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan popularized the word seamless.
[57:02] Bob Dobbs: He tackled the theme with something,
[57:05] Bob Dobbs: right?
[57:05] Bob Dobbs: The theme was situation we were in,
[57:07] Bob Dobbs: electronic media.
[57:09] Bob Dobbs: And at the time,
[57:11] Bob Dobbs: especially McLuhan,
[57:14] Bob Dobbs: I thought seamless...
[57:17] Bob Dobbs: That kind of acoustic tactile fusion.
[57:19] Bob Dobbs: I didn't know that tactile was abrupt hindrance and borders and bumping.
[57:25] Bob Dobbs: I had illiterate bias of tactile.
[57:30] Bob Dobbs: And like you brought up,
[57:31] Bob Dobbs: we think we get the tactile point.
[57:34] Bob Dobbs: You have to get over your rotation.
[57:38] Bob Dobbs: And that requires a change in perception.
[57:41] Bob Dobbs: Radical.
[57:42] Bob Dobbs: So
[57:44] Bob Dobbs: I'm just noticing that.
[57:47] Bob Dobbs: I'm remembering that I didn't understand seamless as a verb effect.
[57:56] Bob Dobbs: So anyway,
[57:56] Bob Dobbs: it can move so seamlessly that there's no way in hell.
[57:59] Bob Dobbs: So that's a pretty good statement.
[58:02] Bob Dobbs: The literate reality of Americans could not conceive of a discontinuity Trump.
[58:10] Bob Dobbs: It's not history with linear and connected.
[58:14] Bob Dobbs: As a matter of fact,
[58:15] Bob Dobbs: he was never truly elected to be President of the United States of America.
[58:19] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[58:19] Bob Dobbs: he was elected,
[58:20] Bob Dobbs: I am said,
[58:22] Bob Dobbs: anybody but a person from Washington,
[58:25] Bob Dobbs: who was an tactility.
[58:26] Bob Dobbs: They didn't want a President,
[58:31] Bob Dobbs: not that they wanted something different.
[58:45] Bob Dobbs: And then he,
[58:48] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[58:55] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[59:04] Bob Dobbs: he did,
[59:04] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[59:08] Bob Dobbs: See,
[59:08] Bob Dobbs: that's pretty clever,
[59:09] Bob Dobbs: what the tech body's saying here.
[59:13] Bob Dobbs: I don't think anybody...
[59:15] Bob Dobbs: that we know of has commented on this.
[59:45] Bob Dobbs: That click over,
[59:46] Bob Dobbs: did you say?
[59:51] Bob Dobbs: That is presented here.
[59:53] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[59:55] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[59:57] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[59:58] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[59:58] Bob Dobbs: What we didn't...
[59:59] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:00:06] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:00:06] Bob Dobbs: so there's an end by saying...
[1:00:08] Bob Dobbs: I like this.
[1:00:09] Bob Dobbs: Here we go.
[1:00:10] Bob Dobbs: They're setting a stage.
[1:00:11] Bob Dobbs: It's a Google Earth 5.
[1:00:13] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:00:13] Bob Dobbs: they're not smart.
[1:00:14] Bob Dobbs: That's why they're saying...
[1:00:16] Bob Dobbs: The holograph told somebody through numbers that were created through the digital body.
[1:00:21] Bob Dobbs: Another quote.
[1:00:22] Bob Dobbs: The holograph told somebody through numbers that were created through the digital body.
[1:00:26] Bob Dobbs: So this is the hologram or holograph speaking.
[1:00:29] Bob Dobbs: You're in trouble.
[1:00:31] Bob Dobbs: So Joe Biden,
[1:00:32] Bob Dobbs: here are the words that he said.
[1:00:34] Bob Dobbs: He said,
[1:00:36] Bob Dobbs: or he was instructed to say,
[1:00:37] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:00:37] Bob Dobbs: folks,
[1:00:37] Bob Dobbs: the only way to help you by any event from Vestal Goodman is...
[1:00:54] Bob Dobbs: There's Bachman's Trump.
[1:01:00] Bob Dobbs: All the way to the U.A.C.
[1:01:01] Bob Dobbs: Nothing yet with Bachman's turtle.
[1:01:03] Bob Dobbs: Now there's my...
[1:01:07] Bob Dobbs: That's an acoustic layout.
[1:01:21] Bob Dobbs: Not finished yet.
[1:01:28] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:01:28] Bob Dobbs: it's iconic.
[1:01:29] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:01:29] Bob Dobbs: it's iconic.
[1:01:30] Bob Dobbs: I wouldn't take nothing from her.
[1:01:32] Bob Dobbs: And all the way across the...
[1:01:34] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:01:38] Bob Dobbs: folks,
[1:01:39] Bob Dobbs: the only way
[1:01:41] Bob Dobbs: Donald Trump could be elected president is from Chiquita.
[1:01:44] Bob Dobbs: By any event,
[1:01:45] Bob Dobbs: we're in for a rocky road.
[1:01:48] Bob Dobbs: For goodness...
[1:01:49] Bob Dobbs: stuff that you better travel light and you might lose what you have and the stuff happening that you ain't seen.
[1:01:57] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:01:57] Bob Dobbs: this was said,
[1:01:58] Bob Dobbs: I'm pretty sure this interview happened before the election.
[1:02:03] Bob Dobbs: So,
[1:02:04] Bob Dobbs: is this a subtle prediction of Biden winning?
[1:02:12] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:02:13] Bob Dobbs: I know.
[1:02:35] Bob Dobbs: They were created through,
[1:02:36] Bob Dobbs: it's a digital body's bias that was created through the digital body.
[1:02:44] Bob Dobbs: It has true numbers.
[1:02:53] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:03:24] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:03:25] Bob Dobbs: The acoustic space.
[1:03:32] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:03:43] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:03:46] Bob Dobbs: The interruption.
[1:03:54] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[1:03:54] Bob Dobbs: so what people need to do,
[1:03:57] Bob Dobbs: they need to hear the audience of this thing.
[1:04:00] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:04:03] Bob Dobbs: if anybody's interested,
[1:04:05] Bob Dobbs: I send them the link so they can hear the actual,
[1:04:07] Bob Dobbs: hear how Iron said it,
[1:04:09] Bob Dobbs: or Tech Body said it,
[1:04:10] Bob Dobbs: this last bit,
[1:04:11] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:04:12] Bob Dobbs: I might have missed a syllable or two.
[1:04:15] Bob Dobbs: Anyway,
[1:04:19] Bob Dobbs: it's a great ending.
[1:04:20] Bob Dobbs: It's quadrophrenia.
[1:04:24] Bob Dobbs: No.
[1:04:43] Bob Dobbs: What did I do?
[1:04:45] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:04:46] Bob Dobbs: I have the
[1:04:48] Bob Dobbs: Trump TV post,
[1:04:50] Bob Dobbs: a journalistic interpretation Trump,
[1:04:54] Bob Dobbs: and then memorize the two sentences in red below.
[1:04:59] Bob Dobbs: I don't even remember.
[1:05:00] Bob Dobbs: Have them ready for all conversations.
[1:05:02] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[1:05:02] Bob Dobbs: you know what?
[1:05:06] Bob Dobbs: That's over my notes.
[1:05:08] Bob Dobbs: I forgot to delete.
[1:05:10] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:05:11] Bob Dobbs: good.
[1:05:11] Bob Dobbs: I'm showing the profit.
[1:05:13] Bob Dobbs: Memorize the...
[1:05:14] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[1:05:14] Bob Dobbs: yes.
[1:05:15] Bob Dobbs: This is...
[1:05:17] Bob Dobbs: No,
[1:05:17] Bob Dobbs: no,
[1:05:18] Bob Dobbs: no.
[1:05:18] Bob Dobbs: I was telling people.
[1:05:20] Bob Dobbs: We need new statements.
[1:05:22] Bob Dobbs: You don't say McLuhan taught us that we use the best users of content or the global bill.
[1:05:27] Bob Dobbs: You need to say this thing,
[1:05:29] Bob Dobbs: like human theory.
[1:05:30] Bob Dobbs: That's what you have to memorize.
[1:05:32] Bob Dobbs: You have to make a new thing to show that McLuhan was dealing with corrupt money world or the digital economy that no one knew that he was onto.
[1:05:41] Bob Dobbs: And this quote does it.
[1:05:43] Bob Dobbs: And it also gets into the bag of fascination conspiracy theory.
[1:05:47] Bob Dobbs: When Warren Königsberg all-money transaction begins to reflect.
[1:05:51] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:05:52] Bob Dobbs: these are my instructions to the reader.
[1:05:54] Bob Dobbs: Memorize the two sentences.
[1:05:56] Bob Dobbs: Have them ready for all conversations.
[1:05:57] Bob Dobbs: Because I want to update McCool.
[1:06:00] Bob Dobbs: Or get McLuhan presentation of them.
[1:06:03] Bob Dobbs: Say it's what McCool described.
[1:06:10] Bob Dobbs: Or the history of technology technology.
[1:06:14] Bob Dobbs: It's not for the new readers.
[1:06:21] Bob Dobbs: Listen,
[1:06:24] Bob Dobbs: make it more famous and...
[1:06:26] Bob Dobbs: Do you think this is correctly that I was telling the reader to do this?
[1:06:32] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:06:33] Bob Dobbs: good.
[1:07:28] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:09:27] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:10:11] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:10:11] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[1:10:11] Bob Dobbs: excellent.
[1:10:12] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:10:13] Bob Dobbs: it's funny,
[1:10:14] Bob Dobbs: I forgot my ending.
[1:10:16] Bob Dobbs: I didn't even look at this,
[1:10:17] Bob Dobbs: it's making fun of me.
[1:10:18] Bob Dobbs: And so,
[1:10:19] Bob Dobbs: I thought...
[1:10:20] Bob Dobbs: I forgot that I was telling the reader to do this,
[1:10:23] Bob Dobbs: and I thought,
[1:10:24] Bob Dobbs: why is that there?
[1:10:25] Bob Dobbs: Was I telling this to myself?
[1:10:27] Bob Dobbs: So then I remembered,
[1:10:29] Bob Dobbs: and then this quote,
[1:10:30] Bob Dobbs: and I knew from the beginning I was going to end with this quote,
[1:10:34] Bob Dobbs: because I consider it a really unknown McComb quote,
[1:10:37] Bob Dobbs: a very important one,
[1:10:39] Bob Dobbs: and no one I ever met in the cool world talked about it.
[1:10:43] Bob Dobbs: I would talk about it on the radio show,
[1:10:46] Bob Dobbs: but your interpretation is pretty right on.
[1:10:49] Bob Dobbs: About implications here.
[1:10:54] Bob Dobbs: All technologies,
[1:10:55] Bob Dobbs: when they're misinterpreted,
[1:10:57] Bob Dobbs: cause wars,
[1:10:59] Bob Dobbs: which is the old maxim from the late 60s.
[1:11:03] Bob Dobbs: But this sort of helps explain what goes on in Wall Street,
[1:11:09] Bob Dobbs: and even the secret stuff,
[1:11:10] Bob Dobbs: like the secret cabals and knocking off people,
[1:11:14] Bob Dobbs: which is the fair,
[1:11:15] Bob Dobbs: the regular fair of TV shows.
[1:11:18] Bob Dobbs: In the evening,
[1:11:19] Bob Dobbs: the last 20 or 30 years,
[1:11:21] Bob Dobbs: all conspiracy stuff.
[1:11:25] Bob Dobbs: I haven't seen much TV in the last 30 years.
[1:11:34] Bob Dobbs: But I have seen Cod Blitz,
[1:11:36] Bob Dobbs: like The Sopranos,
[1:11:40] Bob Dobbs: which I didn't watch,
[1:11:41] Bob Dobbs: but...
[1:11:43] Bob Dobbs: I know this is the same stuff.
[1:11:45] Bob Dobbs: Actually,
[1:11:45] Bob Dobbs: I started watching TV gigs 10 years ago when I moved here.
[1:11:49] Bob Dobbs: And TV was,
[1:11:50] Bob Dobbs: they call that the golden era,
[1:11:52] Bob Dobbs: this last 10 years.
[1:11:54] Bob Dobbs: TV did get better.
[1:11:57] Bob Dobbs: People were more on the internet and all that,
[1:11:59] Bob Dobbs: so it had become an art form.
[1:12:03] Bob Dobbs: But after a while,
[1:12:04] Bob Dobbs: it was always the same scenario.
[1:12:07] Bob Dobbs: Corrupt politicians,
[1:12:09] Bob Dobbs: conspiracy,
[1:12:11] Bob Dobbs: tribalism.
[1:12:12] Bob Dobbs: Different groups,
[1:12:15] Bob Dobbs: it seems to be the only thing that
[1:12:17] Bob Dobbs: TV could come up with,
[1:12:19] Bob Dobbs: at least for the night time,
[1:12:21] Bob Dobbs: is paranoia.
[1:12:23] Bob Dobbs: So,
[1:12:25] Bob Dobbs: I think,
[1:12:25] Bob Dobbs: I thought of this quote,
[1:12:26] Bob Dobbs: all money transactions begin to drip blood.
[1:12:30] Bob Dobbs: They might just seem to drift away.
[1:12:35] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[1:12:35] Bob Dobbs: those that,
[1:12:38] Bob Dobbs: I know,
[1:12:38] Bob Dobbs: but the literate...
[1:12:40] Bob Dobbs: Andy's hand being said,
[1:12:41] Bob Dobbs: that's just a conspiracy theory.
[1:12:43] Bob Dobbs: See,
[1:12:44] Bob Dobbs: that's naivety about the title,
[1:12:47] Bob Dobbs: Super Angel Battle.
[1:12:50] Bob Dobbs: That man's right.
[1:13:04] Bob Dobbs: To breathe together.
[1:13:08] Bob Dobbs: To breathe together.
[1:13:16] Bob Dobbs: That's conflation.
[1:13:19] Bob Dobbs: So,
[1:13:20] Bob Dobbs: GATS-22,
[1:13:21] Bob Dobbs: the figure of the one-time detector at hand.
[1:13:48] Bob Dobbs: ...and merging with ground and that was said.
[1:13:55] Bob Dobbs: They had to look up.
[1:13:57] Bob Dobbs: This was on his...
[1:14:10] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[1:14:11] Bob Dobbs: and then I guess,
[1:14:15] Bob Dobbs: um,
[1:14:15] Bob Dobbs: so,
[1:14:19] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[1:14:38] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:14:38] Bob Dobbs: I've been talking to
[1:14:41] Bob Dobbs: Clinton. You've got the best point.
[1:14:46] Bob Dobbs: But he did,
[1:14:47] Bob Dobbs: and so he's been very arrogant.
[1:14:53] Bob Dobbs: He's doing his arrogance.
[1:14:59] Bob Dobbs: And superiority complex,
[1:15:02] Bob Dobbs: and everybody's an idiot.
[1:15:04] Bob Dobbs: And he couldn't control himself.
[1:15:08] Bob Dobbs: control himself.
[1:15:09] Bob Dobbs: He gets so pissed off.
[1:15:10] Bob Dobbs: Or he roses it.
[1:15:12] Bob Dobbs: He decided not to write after McLuhan.
[1:15:15] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[1:16:03] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:16:29] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[1:16:40] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[1:16:40] Bob Dobbs: he failed.
[1:16:42] Bob Dobbs: Just me and George now.
[1:16:43] Bob Dobbs: Everybody close to you said that?
[1:16:44] Bob Dobbs: He didn't even include me.
[1:16:49] Bob Dobbs: It's just me and George now.
[1:16:52] Bob Dobbs: I was just walking into the building.
[1:16:56] Bob Dobbs: I wasn't part of the scene.
[1:16:57] Bob Dobbs: And they just got off the,
[1:16:58] Bob Dobbs: they just started to talk to that guy down in Florida,
[1:17:01] Bob Dobbs: in Bibliography.
[1:17:03] Bob Dobbs: So I was just in the background,
[1:17:04] Bob Dobbs: but I heard it.
[1:17:05] Bob Dobbs: And the close didn't know I was there.
[1:17:10] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:17:11] Bob Dobbs: it's me,
[1:17:11] Bob Dobbs: George,
[1:17:12] Bob Dobbs: and ah,
[1:17:13] Bob Dobbs: the case is dropping.
[1:17:19] Bob Dobbs: What else was I going to say?
[1:17:22] Bob Dobbs: Talking about...
[1:17:26] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[1:17:26] Bob Dobbs: so the boarding platoon was always there at a Monday night seminar.
[1:17:31] Bob Dobbs: All of a sudden he says,
[1:17:32] Bob Dobbs: he's like,
[1:17:33] Bob Dobbs: I don't think there's one smart person on this campus.
[1:17:38] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[1:17:39] Bob Dobbs: Really,
[1:17:39] Bob Dobbs: this is a statement.
[1:17:41] Bob Dobbs: Rude statement.
[1:17:50] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:17:53] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[1:17:53] Bob Dobbs: He always had it.
[1:18:58] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[1:20:09] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[1:20:09] Bob Dobbs: I had a couple of thoughts,
[1:20:11] Bob Dobbs: but they're coming and going,
[1:20:13] Bob Dobbs: so I have to retrieve what I was thinking as you were saying this.
[1:20:21] Bob Dobbs: So we were talking around the 40s Innis area.
[1:20:24] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[1:20:24] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[1:20:25] Bob Dobbs: You know what he does in the 60s when he's on panels with Malcolm Hutchins or Barbara Booker?
[1:20:30] Bob Dobbs: There's a lot of almost smirking that's his superiority.
[1:20:34] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:20:35] Bob Dobbs: Baylor.
[1:20:37] Bob Dobbs: Obliviate,
[1:20:38] Bob Dobbs: what they,
[1:20:38] Bob Dobbs: Obloviate about something and you see McCormick trying to smile it.
[1:20:44] Bob Dobbs: Are you laughing at the age of McCormick?
[1:20:46] Bob Dobbs: I think it was Obloviate,
[1:20:47] Bob Dobbs: the word Obloviate.
[1:20:49] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:20:50] Bob Dobbs: good.
[1:20:51] Bob Dobbs: But you know what I mean,
[1:20:52] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:20:54] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:21:34] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:21:46] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:21:47] Bob Dobbs: McClellan complains a lot.
[1:21:48] Bob Dobbs: He would complain.
[1:21:52] Bob Dobbs: Um,
[1:21:52] Bob Dobbs: the...
[1:21:54] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:21:54] Bob Dobbs: so,
[1:22:00] Bob Dobbs: Yeah?
[1:23:44] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[1:23:44] Bob Dobbs: he had two references to that.
[1:23:47] Bob Dobbs: In the 70s he talked about that TV show,
[1:23:50] Bob Dobbs: I think it was British,
[1:23:51] Bob Dobbs: Upstairs,
[1:23:51] Bob Dobbs: Downstairs.
[1:23:55] Bob Dobbs: And then another quote,
[1:23:56] Bob Dobbs: we all have gone into the basement or downstairs.
[1:24:00] Bob Dobbs: That's another thing.
[1:24:03] Bob Dobbs: So he lost heart.
[1:24:05] Bob Dobbs: 70s interviewer,
[1:24:06] Bob Dobbs: he says,
[1:24:07] Bob Dobbs: I miss the time when there were big egos.
[1:24:11] Bob Dobbs: Which would be the 1950s,
[1:24:13] Bob Dobbs: I guess.
[1:24:14] Bob Dobbs: Or Pryde War II.
[1:24:21] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:24:21] Bob Dobbs: And,
[1:24:22] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:24:23] Bob Dobbs: the pop culture is all about new age stuff in the 70s,
[1:24:27] Bob Dobbs: yoga,
[1:24:28] Bob Dobbs: get rid of your ego.
[1:24:32] Bob Dobbs: And he was saying that he was.
[1:24:37] Bob Dobbs: In the article on organic brain and age or something,
[1:24:52] Bob Dobbs: and somebody commented in the letter column,
[1:24:55] Bob Dobbs: that typical McLuhan,
[1:24:57] Bob Dobbs: he can't make up his mind,
[1:24:58] Bob Dobbs: he just goes,
[1:24:59] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:25:01] Bob Dobbs: inorganic and non-organic.
[1:25:06] Bob Dobbs: not vegetarian or something.
[1:25:09] Bob Dobbs: In the 70s,
[1:25:10] Bob Dobbs: not healthy food.
[1:25:12] Bob Dobbs: He had half healthy.
[1:25:14] Bob Dobbs: So the mixed media of McLuhan came across there.
[1:25:20] Bob Dobbs: We know McLuhan didn't suffer going downstairs.
[1:25:25] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan didn't suffer going downstairs.
[1:25:27] Bob Dobbs: He didn't go downstairs and he didn't go upstairs.
[1:25:31] Bob Dobbs: He was on the side.
[1:25:33] Bob Dobbs: What does it say?
[1:25:33] Bob Dobbs: As a character observer.
[1:25:36] Bob Dobbs: Now here's the aside.
[1:25:38] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:25:38] Bob Dobbs: if you notice on the album,
[1:25:40] Bob Dobbs: The Needle is the Beside,
[1:25:42] Bob Dobbs: someone asked them,
[1:25:43] Bob Dobbs: what is the Needle in the Nose?
[1:25:45] Bob Dobbs: What is it?
[1:25:46] Bob Dobbs: So it's an aside.
[1:25:48] Bob Dobbs: That means something's happening.
[1:25:50] Bob Dobbs: McClellan's standing off on the side in the crowd,
[1:25:53] Bob Dobbs: and he says to somebody he knows or doesn't know,
[1:25:57] Bob Dobbs: the
[1:25:58] Bob Dobbs: Needle is the Nessie's.
[1:26:00] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[1:26:03] Bob Dobbs: Now I got to do that to Patti Smith.
[1:26:07] Bob Dobbs: You know the rocker,
[1:26:08] Bob Dobbs: Nef,
[1:26:09] Bob Dobbs: the third punk woman I guess.
[1:26:13] Bob Dobbs: I encountered her several times in Europe.
[1:26:16] Bob Dobbs: One time she was performing and she took a look at me and I asked if she had read Fittie's weight.
[1:26:24] Bob Dobbs: I was just doing it.
[1:26:26] Bob Dobbs: That was in her head every poker and it was on my mind.
[1:26:34] Bob Dobbs: So she said,
[1:26:34] Bob Dobbs: yeah I know Fittie's weight.
[1:26:35] Bob Dobbs: So then when she came back,
[1:26:37] Bob Dobbs: she did one of her songs,
[1:26:39] Bob Dobbs: but we played Sitting Swift throughout it.
[1:26:43] Bob Dobbs: So that was one encounter with her.
[1:26:45] Bob Dobbs: Then,
[1:26:46] Bob Dobbs: just before we came to Maui in 2008,
[1:26:51] Bob Dobbs: Ralph
[1:26:52] Bob Dobbs: Nader came to speak.
[1:26:54] Bob Dobbs: And she was a big fan of Ralph Nader.
[1:26:57] Bob Dobbs: And then during the Barnes Channer Noble,
[1:27:00] Bob Dobbs: listening to
[1:27:01] Bob Dobbs: Silly, and he had put out a book.
[1:27:04] Bob Dobbs: drawings of archetypal folklore.
[1:27:08] Bob Dobbs: It was stupid,
[1:27:09] Bob Dobbs: but to me it was.
[1:27:10] Bob Dobbs: And all of a sudden,
[1:27:13] Bob Dobbs: in the Barnes Channer Noble on
[1:27:15] Bob Dobbs: 14th Street,
[1:27:16] Bob Dobbs: Union Square in
[1:27:17] Bob Dobbs: Manhattan. Yeah,
[1:27:20] Bob Dobbs: Manhattan.
[1:27:21] Bob Dobbs: And
[1:27:22] Bob Dobbs: I looked over and there was Patti Smith standing beside me.
[1:27:25] Bob Dobbs: I had asked the person who found me in 1975,
[1:27:29] Bob Dobbs: the next one is
[1:27:30] Bob Dobbs: 2004.
[1:27:34] Bob Dobbs: At a gallery of her paintings,
[1:27:36] Bob Dobbs: I talked to her about
[1:27:38] Bob Dobbs: William Burroughs,
[1:27:38] Bob Dobbs: and after a while,
[1:27:40] Bob Dobbs: I think she said,
[1:27:41] Bob Dobbs: like,
[1:27:41] Bob Dobbs: my probing question,
[1:27:43] Bob Dobbs: this is,
[1:27:45] Bob Dobbs: I don't know,
[1:27:46] Bob Dobbs: he was my friend,
[1:27:47] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if I should be talking to you,
[1:27:49] Bob Dobbs: and so she backed off,
[1:27:51] Bob Dobbs: okay?
[1:27:51] Bob Dobbs: So then,
[1:27:53] Bob Dobbs: now,
[1:27:53] Bob Dobbs: 2008,
[1:27:54] Bob Dobbs: four years later,
[1:27:54] Bob Dobbs: I'm standing there,
[1:27:55] Bob Dobbs: and all of a sudden,
[1:27:55] Bob Dobbs: she's beside me,
[1:27:56] Bob Dobbs: and she's,
[1:27:57] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:27:58] Bob Dobbs: enraptured by Nader,
[1:28:00] Bob Dobbs: and so I did an aside to her.
[1:28:02] Bob Dobbs: I basically gave the meeting as a message.
[1:28:05] Bob Dobbs: Without saying hi or anything,
[1:28:07] Bob Dobbs: I just said she was anybody or nobody,
[1:28:10] Bob Dobbs: and I said,
[1:28:11] Bob Dobbs: and I looked back at,
[1:28:20] Bob Dobbs: what's his name,
[1:28:21] Bob Dobbs: and then within five seconds,
[1:28:23] Bob Dobbs: I looked back,
[1:28:24] Bob Dobbs: or even less,
[1:28:25] Bob Dobbs: and she's gone.
[1:28:27] Bob Dobbs: She's gone.
[1:28:29] Bob Dobbs: I did something to her.
[1:28:31] Bob Dobbs: couldn't stand being around me.
[1:28:32] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if she recognized me,
[1:28:34] Bob Dobbs: but anyway,
[1:28:35] Bob Dobbs: that's me doing an aside,
[1:28:37] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:28:39] Bob Dobbs: And so people read,
[1:28:41] Bob Dobbs: they see the title of both of these as an aside,
[1:28:43] Bob Dobbs: they automatically think it's a blaring headline or something.
[1:28:48] Bob Dobbs: They aren't hearing it.
[1:28:50] Bob Dobbs: He could have written it with tiny letters maybe,
[1:28:52] Bob Dobbs: but it could be said as an aside,
[1:28:55] Bob Dobbs: the medium is the message.
[1:28:57] Bob Dobbs: This is important.
[1:29:00] Bob Dobbs: to hear what he's saying.
[1:29:03] Bob Dobbs: So it's good that he did.
[1:29:05] Bob Dobbs: He mentioned a time that he could be recorded speaking.
[1:29:07] Bob Dobbs: That brought in a whole ton of video.
[1:29:18] Bob Dobbs: And some people were taken by it.
[1:29:21] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if that's true.
[1:29:30] Bob Dobbs: It's a hat too,
[1:29:30] Bob Dobbs: that when mailers go out,
[1:29:33] Bob Dobbs: it's an American tantrum,
[1:29:35] Bob Dobbs: the cool Canadians.
[1:29:40] Bob Dobbs: Right?
[1:29:41] Bob Dobbs: And most people,
[1:29:43] Bob Dobbs: when they're on a panel,
[1:29:45] Bob Dobbs: they're thinking what they're going to say.
[1:29:46] Bob Dobbs: It's oral.
[1:29:47] Bob Dobbs: They're going to react and disagree.
[1:29:50] Bob Dobbs: He is totally wearing the cameras on him,
[1:29:53] Bob Dobbs: and so he communicates the gestural ESP to people.
[1:29:57] Bob Dobbs: So
[1:29:59] Bob Dobbs: I knew this guy in New York City,
[1:30:01] Bob Dobbs: and he watched that when YouTube brought it out,
[1:30:04] Bob Dobbs: Mailer and McLuhan.
[1:30:08] Bob Dobbs: 1967,
[1:30:18] Bob Dobbs: an earlier one,
[1:30:19] Bob Dobbs: and this American said,
[1:30:26] Bob Dobbs: Norman Mailer is an idiot.
[1:30:28] Bob Dobbs: He was so uncool.
[1:30:29] Bob Dobbs: Now back in 67,
[1:30:30] Bob Dobbs: I had a friend who watched that and said,
[1:30:34] Bob Dobbs: well,
[1:30:34] Bob Dobbs: he has congested.
[1:30:40] Bob Dobbs: Because he said,
[1:30:42] Bob Dobbs: there's no free anymore.
[1:30:44] Bob Dobbs: Remember that quote?
[1:30:47] Bob Dobbs: And so he's,
[1:30:52] Bob Dobbs: so back then,
[1:30:53] Bob Dobbs: people wanted,
[1:30:55] Bob Dobbs: in the hot 60s,
[1:30:56] Bob Dobbs: with the cool ground,
[1:30:58] Bob Dobbs: they wanted confrontation.
[1:31:01] Bob Dobbs: And then
[1:31:03] Bob Dobbs: 50 years later,
[1:31:04] Bob Dobbs: 40 years later...
[1:31:05] Bob Dobbs: The Americans says,
[1:31:07] Bob Dobbs: no,
[1:31:08] Bob Dobbs: I like the way he's being cool.
[1:31:09] Bob Dobbs: They're sick of the yelling and screaming by then.
[1:31:11] Bob Dobbs: It's a cool culture.
[1:31:13] Bob Dobbs: And
[1:31:14] Bob Dobbs: Mayer was stupid.
[1:31:15] Bob Dobbs: Where did he look like the champion in 67?
[1:31:19] Bob Dobbs: So,
[1:31:29] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[1:31:31] Bob Dobbs: He even tried to become mayor of New York.
[1:32:02] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[1:32:33] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:32:33] Bob Dobbs: being impulsive.
[1:32:42] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[1:32:43] Bob Dobbs: He was a 40s person,
[1:32:45] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:32:45] Bob Dobbs: a punching 30s and 40s kind of guy.
[1:32:48] Bob Dobbs: Named Cagney,
[1:32:51] Bob Dobbs: a hot character.
[1:33:12] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[1:33:19] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[1:33:23] Bob Dobbs: that's right.
[1:34:17] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[1:34:19] Bob Dobbs: yes.
[1:34:19] Bob Dobbs: The other thing,
[1:34:20] Bob Dobbs: your coding documentary,
[1:34:22] Bob Dobbs: the clue daughter made,
[1:34:24] Bob Dobbs: and the other quote made was,
[1:34:26] Bob Dobbs: he said,
[1:34:27] Bob Dobbs: I thought I had the fastest mind.
[1:34:29] Bob Dobbs: So when I met the clue,
[1:34:30] Bob Dobbs: I said,
[1:34:32] Bob Dobbs: no,
[1:34:32] Bob Dobbs: I think he's faster than me.
[1:34:34] Bob Dobbs: Remember to save that.
[1:34:39] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:34:40] Bob Dobbs: because it's like McClellan wasn't being kinetically fast,
[1:34:44] Bob Dobbs: he was being cooler,
[1:34:45] Bob Dobbs: the way you're saying,
[1:34:46] Bob Dobbs: using the positive.
[1:34:48] Bob Dobbs: He was ahead of Mailer on his gaps,
[1:34:51] Bob Dobbs: so he had a faster mind.
[1:34:53] Bob Dobbs: Doesn't mean he talked faster.
[1:34:58] Bob Dobbs: He,
[1:35:00] Bob Dobbs: I don't know,
[1:35:01] Bob Dobbs: remained about the situation,
[1:35:02] Bob Dobbs: didn't get numbed about it as it was happening.
[1:35:09] Bob Dobbs: Big pardon?
[1:35:14] Bob Dobbs: No,
[1:35:14] Bob Dobbs: you said size is faster than the speed of light.
[1:35:26] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[1:35:28] Bob Dobbs: right.
[1:35:29] Bob Dobbs: It's ESP almost.
[1:35:32] Bob Dobbs: Your second sight.
[1:35:33] Bob Dobbs: Your second sight.
[1:35:35] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:35:36] Bob Dobbs: so another point.
[1:35:39] Bob Dobbs: So we're talking,
[1:35:40] Bob Dobbs: so,
[1:35:43] Bob Dobbs: he,
[1:35:44] Bob Dobbs: um,
[1:35:46] Bob Dobbs: very interesting to watch him on panels.
[1:35:48] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:35:48] Bob Dobbs: um,
[1:35:51] Bob Dobbs: now this Shaker thing,
[1:35:54] Bob Dobbs: Shaker's sort of character,
[1:35:57] Bob Dobbs: European,
[1:35:58] Bob Dobbs: Parisian,
[1:35:59] Bob Dobbs: and,
[1:36:00] Bob Dobbs: but Cullen gives up and starts,
[1:36:02] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:36:03] Bob Dobbs: sort of barking at him,
[1:36:04] Bob Dobbs: okay?
[1:36:06] Bob Dobbs: So it's different,
[1:36:07] Bob Dobbs: he's not being the cool guy.
[1:36:09] Bob Dobbs: be different because he knows or he's free he has this auditory old fond of bias remember that he's 136 please get our text auditory old bond is the bias of uh french that
[1:36:25] Bob Dobbs: a u f o a oh yeah right right so
[1:37:18] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:37:18] Bob Dobbs: in other words,
[1:37:19] Bob Dobbs: appreciating the tactile effect.
[1:37:22] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:37:39] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:37:53] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[1:37:54] Bob Dobbs: No,
[1:37:55] Bob Dobbs: that's why in the end he wrote books.
[1:37:57] Bob Dobbs: He could justify doing books.
[1:37:59] Bob Dobbs: They were accounted as a hyper-odd-out tactile.
[1:38:04] Bob Dobbs: And,
[1:38:04] Bob Dobbs: of course,
[1:38:05] Bob Dobbs: people get all confused because they were being biased towards the odd-out tactile in the popular culture,
[1:38:11] Bob Dobbs: and they thought he was advocating them.
[1:38:13] Bob Dobbs: And as they came around them,
[1:38:15] Bob Dobbs: they found there was a lot more complex going on Innis performance than they thought.
[1:38:19] Bob Dobbs: Which reminds me of the other thing he wanted to say.
[1:38:22] Bob Dobbs: Abbie Hoffman
[1:38:24] Bob Dobbs: Cool,
[1:38:24] Bob Dobbs: hot character.
[1:38:25] Bob Dobbs: And he tells a story of 68 or so.
[1:38:28] Bob Dobbs: He calls up McLuhan to get some advice as he was writing his media book.
[1:38:33] Bob Dobbs: And he said,
[1:38:34] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan said nothing but the medium is a message.
[1:38:38] Bob Dobbs: He just kept repeating the medium is a message to Hoffman all through the phone call.
[1:38:45] Bob Dobbs: He didn't say anything else.
[1:38:46] Bob Dobbs: Whatever Hoffman said,
[1:38:48] Bob Dobbs: Martin would go,
[1:38:48] Bob Dobbs: the medium is a message.
[1:38:50] Bob Dobbs: He was very rude to Hoffman.
[1:38:52] Bob Dobbs: And Hoffman thought it was funny or really what
[1:39:00] Bob Dobbs: Hoffman said.
[1:39:03] Bob Dobbs: But there's the thing,
[1:39:08] Bob Dobbs: the emperor said he pulled decency,
[1:39:14] Bob Dobbs: it was like he didn't care what Hoffman said.
[1:39:30] Bob Dobbs: No,
[1:39:30] Bob Dobbs: that's true.
[1:39:31] Bob Dobbs: It could have been just after the...
[1:39:34] Bob Dobbs: Are you there?
[1:39:47] Bob Dobbs: Hello?
[1:40:01] Bob Dobbs: Hello?
[1:40:02] Bob Dobbs: Hey
[1:40:10] Bob Dobbs: Hello
[1:40:57] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:41:01] Bob Dobbs: you guys...
[1:41:01] Bob Dobbs: And then I noticed the phone wasn't echoing.
[1:41:04] Bob Dobbs: But that might be because I get disconnected.
[1:41:06] Bob Dobbs: So it may have turned off the tape a while back.
[1:41:12] Bob Dobbs: So we call back in,
[1:41:15] Bob Dobbs: okay?
[1:41:17] Bob Dobbs: Your phone just dropped,
[1:41:19] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:41:25] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:41:25] Bob Dobbs: you're not connected.
[1:41:26] Bob Dobbs: You're a bit low.
[1:41:47] Bob Dobbs: I
[1:41:47] Bob Dobbs: can't hear what you're saying.
[1:41:49] Bob Dobbs: You're blurry.
[1:41:56] Bob Dobbs: So you,
[1:42:01] Bob Dobbs: were you on the speakerphone before?
[1:42:08] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:42:10] Bob Dobbs: and now you're trying to get back into it.
[1:42:20] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:42:21] Bob Dobbs: let me call in,
[1:42:24] Bob Dobbs: disconnect,
[1:42:24] Bob Dobbs: I'm going to call in the...
[1:42:26] Bob Dobbs: the place and then bring you in.
[1:42:28] Bob Dobbs: So I can call you back.
[1:42:29] Bob Dobbs: Maybe that will give you time to fix your phone.
[1:42:44] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[1:42:45] Bob Dobbs: All right.
[1:42:45] Bob Dobbs: So you're there.
[1:42:47] Bob Dobbs: Now I've got to hang up.
[1:42:48] Bob Dobbs: I've got to leave and call the place.
[1:42:51] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:42:51] Bob Dobbs: Thank you.
[1:42:54] Bob Dobbs: Stay on.
[1:42:55] Bob Dobbs: ...I am going away from you.
[1:43:44] Bob Dobbs: Hello.
[1:44:19] Bob Dobbs: Hello?
[1:44:22] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if that's one.
[1:44:24] Bob Dobbs: That one's working.
[1:44:26] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[1:44:37] Bob Dobbs: Hi,
[1:44:37] Bob Dobbs: you there.
[1:44:39] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:44:40] Bob Dobbs: now let's go back.
[1:44:44] Bob Dobbs: You came there?
[1:44:48] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:44:48] Bob Dobbs: that didn't work.
[1:44:49] Bob Dobbs: Are you there?
[1:45:04] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[1:45:04] Bob Dobbs: now say hello.
[1:45:07] Bob Dobbs: It's not coming through.
[1:45:10] Bob Dobbs: When I called,
[1:45:13] Bob Dobbs: there were other people there,
[1:45:15] Bob Dobbs: the other phones,
[1:45:17] Bob Dobbs: and it was recording,
[1:45:20] Bob Dobbs: so it was still going.
[1:45:23] Bob Dobbs: And
[1:45:23] Bob Dobbs: I assume this congregation is happening,
[1:45:25] Bob Dobbs: but you're not coming through.
[1:45:27] Bob Dobbs: So let's just end.
[1:45:31] Bob Dobbs: Let's leave it at this.
[1:45:33] Bob Dobbs: Maybe I'll cut this last bit off.
[1:45:37] Bob Dobbs: We were gossiping,
[1:45:40] Bob Dobbs: but it was interesting.
[1:45:41] Bob Dobbs: And what was the last thing we said?
[1:45:46] Bob Dobbs: No,
[1:45:47] Bob Dobbs: no,
[1:45:47] Bob Dobbs: the last bit there,
[1:45:48] Bob Dobbs: talking about McLuhan.
[1:45:49] Bob Dobbs: That was relevant,
[1:45:55] Bob Dobbs: but I like what we said.
[1:45:57] Bob Dobbs: Perceptive.
[1:46:02] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:46:04] Bob Dobbs: so let's...
[1:46:07] Bob Dobbs: ...fair enough,
[1:46:08] Bob Dobbs: what we did,
[1:46:10] Bob Dobbs: we got it on record.
[1:46:11] Bob Dobbs: Hopefully,
[1:46:11] Bob Dobbs: it didn't cut off over FFC.
[1:46:13] Bob Dobbs: And we're okay.
[1:46:14] Bob Dobbs: It's a disconnected...
[1:46:25] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:46:26] Bob Dobbs: so you know what the last thing you were...
[1:46:28] Bob Dobbs: Was that disconnected?
[1:46:30] Bob Dobbs: Did you know it was disconnected?
[1:46:41] Bob Dobbs: Oh yeah.
[1:47:20] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:47:20] Bob Dobbs: he,
[1:47:20] Bob Dobbs: um,
[1:47:22] Bob Dobbs: George or people around me here.
[1:47:25] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:47:25] Bob Dobbs: that's what we are.
[1:47:28] Bob Dobbs: Um,
[1:47:36] Bob Dobbs: another great recording.
[1:47:37] Bob Dobbs: And if we didn't,
[1:47:38] Bob Dobbs: so what?
[1:47:39] Bob Dobbs: If we didn't get it all,
[1:47:42] Bob Dobbs: so what?
[1:47:43] Bob Dobbs: We'll do it again.
[1:47:46] Bob Dobbs: All right.
[1:47:47] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[1:47:48] Bob Dobbs: Thanks a lot,
[1:47:48] Bob Dobbs: Cameron McEwen.
[1:47:49] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:47:50] Bob Dobbs: bye.
[1:48:41] Bob Dobbs: Hello?