Dialogue 28 — Transcript

[00:02] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[00:03] Bob Dobbs: Bob and Cameron McEwen are back together,

[00:06] Bob Dobbs: and this is our

[00:07] Bob Dobbs: 28th episode,

[00:08] Bob Dobbs: and we're finishing up our review of the end of my book on Donald Trump and the tech body,

[00:19] Bob Dobbs: and we're reading the last part of the tech body dialogue with anybody who is actually me,

[00:29] Bob Dobbs: and this...

[00:31] Bob Dobbs: Transcript is based on an actual recording.

[00:33] Bob Dobbs: If anybody's interested,

[00:34] Bob Dobbs: they can hear the recording of it.

[00:37] Bob Dobbs: And we only got to 45 minutes last week,

[00:43] Bob Dobbs: and then there was a disconnect.

[00:48] Bob Dobbs: But fortunately,

[00:49] Bob Dobbs: we almost finished our commentary on the end of the dialogue with the tech body.

[00:56] Bob Dobbs: So we're going to do the last short bit.

[01:01] Bob Dobbs: and then try to recall some of the things we said.

[01:04] Bob Dobbs: If you're really dedicated,

[01:06] Bob Dobbs: and you should be,

[01:08] Bob Dobbs: if you want to know stuff,

[01:10] Bob Dobbs: you could listen to our recording,

[01:12] Bob Dobbs: and there's another hour or so,

[01:15] Bob Dobbs: where it picks up me in the background,

[01:18] Bob Dobbs: and you can't hear

[01:20] Bob Dobbs: you, Cameron, but things I say might,

[01:26] Bob Dobbs: if you, Cameron work,

[01:27] Bob Dobbs: you might know what you, Cameron would say.

[01:31] Bob Dobbs: But there's a lot of different things that we mentioned in passing,

[01:36] Bob Dobbs: maybe tending toward gossip,

[01:38] Bob Dobbs: that are interesting.

[01:39] Bob Dobbs: And my part of it you could make out pretty well,

[01:44] Bob Dobbs: so you can hear my contributions.

[01:46] Bob Dobbs: So that's probably all.

[01:51] Bob Dobbs: We could have Gilson to it,

[01:54] Bob Dobbs: but I didn't have the patience and figured out what you, Cameron said.

[01:57] Bob Dobbs: You didn't re-listen to it all,

[01:58] Bob Dobbs: did you?

[01:59] Cameron McEwen: No,

[02:00] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[02:02] Bob Dobbs: Whatever it was,

[02:04] Bob Dobbs: a lot of it was stuff I've said before in different times,

[02:06] Bob Dobbs: so the stuff may come up again,

[02:09] Bob Dobbs: the anecdotal part.

[02:11] Cameron McEwen: Bob,

[02:12] Cameron McEwen: I just noticed something that's quite funny and quite amazing.

[02:19] Cameron McEwen: You said after

[02:23] Cameron McEwen: 45, the recording gets dropped.

[02:27] Cameron McEwen: And that's...

[02:28] Cameron McEwen: Accurate.

[02:28] Cameron McEwen: That is exactly the case.

[02:30] Cameron McEwen: But in the second last paragraph,

[02:34] Cameron McEwen: the...

[02:34] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[02:34] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[02:35] Bob Dobbs: Undo 45.

[02:37] Cameron McEwen: Holy shit.

[02:39] Cameron McEwen: Isn't that amazing?

[02:40] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[02:40] Bob Dobbs: the tech body took us literally.

[02:45] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[02:45] Bob Dobbs: people,

[02:45] Bob Dobbs: we dropped off at 45 minutes.

[02:48] Bob Dobbs: And that's what...

[02:50] Bob Dobbs: Talking about Trump the tech body was discussing.

[02:53] Bob Dobbs: We're going to go over that paragraph again.

[02:55] Bob Dobbs: It's discussing...

[02:57] Bob Dobbs: The people who were pissed off Trump being elected were yelling,

[03:00] Bob Dobbs: undo 45.

[03:02] Bob Dobbs: Wow.

[03:04] Bob Dobbs: And that's,

[03:05] Bob Dobbs: we didn't,

[03:07] Bob Dobbs: but you know,

[03:09] Bob Dobbs: did that get said on the recording?

[03:12] Bob Dobbs: I think we did.

[03:14] Cameron McEwen: I think we were just at that point.

[03:16] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[03:18] Cameron McEwen: We're discussing that paragraph and its implications.

[03:25] Cameron McEwen: The book was written a couple of years ago,

[03:31] Cameron McEwen: I believe.

[03:34] Cameron McEwen: So what we have is a kind of feed forward.

[03:41] Cameron McEwen: That's I.A.

[03:42] Cameron McEwen: Richard's word that McLuhan liked.

[03:44] Cameron McEwen: We have a feed forward from when you read this book to our discussion of it last week.

[03:52] Cameron McEwen: And the Undo 45.

[03:54] Cameron McEwen: And the need for a redo got relived in our conversation.

[04:03] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[04:04] Bob Dobbs: that's amazing.

[04:06] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[04:06] Bob Dobbs: so when you go back to around the

[04:12] Bob Dobbs: 38-minute mark of last week,

[04:16] Bob Dobbs: you'll hear us discussing the last bit that got recorded properly.

[04:21] Bob Dobbs: And then we...

[04:23] Bob Dobbs: digress a little about Captain Beefheart,

[04:26] Bob Dobbs: but the last line that was discussed in good clarity was,

[04:32] Bob Dobbs: the tech body says,

[04:36] Bob Dobbs: the power that flew itself was always there.

[04:38] Bob Dobbs: People were starting from Pong.

[04:40] Bob Dobbs: Pong would be the early

[04:42] Bob Dobbs: 70s, that game,

[04:44] Bob Dobbs: digital game.

[04:45] Bob Dobbs: So then the tech body says,

[04:48] Bob Dobbs: and the digital body is getting the pan shot to show how it's all set up.

[04:53] Bob Dobbs: And

[04:54] Bob Dobbs: I put digital body in quotes.

[04:56] Bob Dobbs: The tech body never told me to put it in quotes,

[04:59] Bob Dobbs: but I'm referring to my category of the chip body.

[05:02] Bob Dobbs: But the tech body is saying digital body.

[05:07] Bob Dobbs: Tech body says,

[05:08] Bob Dobbs: and the digital body is getting the pan shot,

[05:11] Bob Dobbs: pan shot in quotes,

[05:12] Bob Dobbs: to show how it's all set up.

[05:14] Bob Dobbs: So the digital body outdoes what they're trying to use the Android Meme to predict,

[05:19] Bob Dobbs: present in a stage.

[05:22] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[05:22] Bob Dobbs: here's a perfect example.

[05:24] Bob Dobbs: It can move so seamlessly that there's no way in hell Donald J.

[05:27] Bob Dobbs: Trump ever going to be elected the sitting president of the United States of America.

[05:31] Bob Dobbs: And this conversation was recorded in October 2020,

[05:35] Bob Dobbs: so just before Trump defeated.

[05:38] Bob Dobbs: As a matter of fact,

[05:39] Bob Dobbs: he Trump was never truly elected to be president of the United States of America.

[05:44] Bob Dobbs: So we need to rewrite.

[05:45] Bob Dobbs: We need to redo.

[05:48] Bob Dobbs: Undo,

[05:49] Bob Dobbs: blah,

[05:51] Bob Dobbs: I'm not saying it again.

[05:55] Bob Dobbs: So he names the date,

[05:57] Bob Dobbs: the number of president that Trump.

[06:00] Bob Dobbs: And now we're going to go back and discuss this,

[06:02] Bob Dobbs: but I'll just finish up here.

[06:04] Bob Dobbs: Here we go.

[06:06] Bob Dobbs: They're setting a stage.

[06:07] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[06:07] Bob Dobbs: they're not smart.

[06:09] Bob Dobbs: The holograph told somebody through numbers that were created through the digital body,

[06:13] Bob Dobbs: quote,

[06:14] Bob Dobbs: you're in trouble.

[06:15] Bob Dobbs: So,

[06:15] Bob Dobbs: Joe Biden,

[06:16] Bob Dobbs: here are the words that you should say.

[06:18] Bob Dobbs: So,

[06:18] Bob Dobbs: the tech body is saying somebody is telling Joe Biden to say,

[06:25] Bob Dobbs: OK,

[06:26] Bob Dobbs: folks,

[06:26] Bob Dobbs: the only way Donald J.

[06:27] Bob Dobbs: Trump ever be elected president is from chicanery.

[06:30] Bob Dobbs: By any event,

[06:32] Bob Dobbs: from Vestal Goodman's,

[06:33] Bob Dobbs: I wouldn't take nothing for my journey now.

[06:36] Bob Dobbs: all the way into you ain't seen nothing yet with Bachman-Turner Overdrive.

[06:39] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[06:40] Bob Dobbs: that's interesting.

[06:42] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if we discussed this.

[06:44] Bob Dobbs: There was a charge.

[06:45] Bob Dobbs: No,

[06:46] Bob Dobbs: about the chicanery.

[06:47] Bob Dobbs: There's a charge.

[06:48] Bob Dobbs: Trump makes the charge.

[06:49] Bob Dobbs: He's still doing it.

[06:50] Bob Dobbs: That it was an election fraud.

[06:52] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[06:53] Bob Dobbs: He's got here.

[06:54] Bob Dobbs: The only way Donald,

[06:55] Bob Dobbs: he has Biden saying the only Trump could ever be elected is from chicanery.

[07:00] Bob Dobbs: But that's what Hillary said back in 2016.

[07:04] Bob Dobbs: But.

[07:05] Bob Dobbs: Biden's guilty.

[07:07] Bob Dobbs: He did this chicanery in

[07:11] Cameron McEwen: 2020. Well,

[07:14] Cameron McEwen: Biden couldn't do it.

[07:16] Cameron McEwen: If it was done,

[07:17] Cameron McEwen: it was done by other folks.

[07:20] Cameron McEwen: It's just the puppet that is put into power through it.

[07:28] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[07:30] Cameron McEwen: When we discussed it last time,

[07:32] Cameron McEwen: we noted that there should have been quotes.

[07:35] Cameron McEwen: after chicanery,

[07:37] Cameron McEwen: so that the tech body and Trump not going on to talk about Vestal Goodman and

[07:44] Cameron McEwen: Bachman-Turner Overdrive.

[07:47] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[07:47] Bob Dobbs: the tech body is saying that.

[07:49] Bob Dobbs: No,

[07:50] Bob Dobbs: no,

[07:50] Bob Dobbs: tech body quotes those songs all the time.

[07:54] Cameron McEwen: Okay,

[07:54] Cameron McEwen: but remember that when you put...

[07:57] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[07:57] Cameron McEwen: yeah,

[07:58] Bob Dobbs: that Biden doesn't.

[08:00] Bob Dobbs: Biden's not...

[08:01] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[08:03] Bob Dobbs: It's a quote from...

[08:04] Bob Dobbs: for Biden to say.

[08:05] Bob Dobbs: And yes,

[08:05] Bob Dobbs: he does not say.

[08:06] Bob Dobbs: By any event,

[08:08] Bob Dobbs: it's not even a proper sentence.

[08:13] Cameron McEwen: It should be a new paragraph.

[08:14] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[08:19] Bob Dobbs: Maybe I should get

[08:20] Bob Dobbs: Clinton to fix that.

[08:21] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[08:25] Cameron McEwen: Let me just mention a couple things.

[08:29] Cameron McEwen: You say digital body is in quotes,

[08:32] Cameron McEwen: but the tech body Peace.

[08:33] Cameron McEwen: didn't sort of indicate that.

[08:35] Cameron McEwen: You did.

[08:36] Cameron McEwen: But remember,

[08:37] Cameron McEwen: the tech body probably,

[08:40] Cameron McEwen: if it's not I and or not you or not whatever,

[08:45] Cameron McEwen: the tech body is speaking here.

[08:47] Cameron McEwen: So when he says the digital body,

[08:49] Cameron McEwen: he's not necessarily speaking about himself.

[08:53] Bob Dobbs: No.

[08:53] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[08:54] Cameron McEwen: So the quotes around digital body are accurate.

[08:59] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[08:59] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[09:00] Bob Dobbs: because the digital body,

[09:02] Bob Dobbs: is in my terms,

[09:04] Bob Dobbs: my five-body scheme is the chip body,

[09:06] Bob Dobbs: and that's the Android Meme,

[09:08] Bob Dobbs: which the tech body correctly separates from himself.

[09:13] Bob Dobbs: He says the digital body outdoes what they're trying to use the Android Meme to predict.

[09:18] Bob Dobbs: That's a statement.

[09:20] Bob Dobbs: It goes past the Android Meme,

[09:22] Bob Dobbs: but there's two phases of the Android Meme in my essay.

[09:29] Bob Dobbs: So the tech body is,

[09:30] Bob Dobbs: yes,

[09:31] Bob Dobbs: talking about...

[09:32] Bob Dobbs: using the Android Meme somehow,

[09:34] Bob Dobbs: being exploited by the chip body.

[09:36] Bob Dobbs: So that's the content of the chip body,

[09:41] Cameron McEwen: the Android Meme.

[09:43] Cameron McEwen: But can the Android Meme be used,

[09:49] Cameron McEwen: or isn't it by definition the user?

[09:54] Bob Dobbs: That's the dilemma.

[09:58] Bob Dobbs: The tech body,

[09:59] Bob Dobbs: or iON,

[09:59] Bob Dobbs: just told me the other day...

[10:02] Bob Dobbs: He starts off in my private session,

[10:04] Bob Dobbs: and that's...

[10:05] Bob Dobbs: Usually with iON,

[10:07] Bob Dobbs: though sometimes the tech body sneaks in and

[10:11] Bob Dobbs: iON says,

[10:12] Bob Dobbs: you've overcome the Android Meme,

[10:17] Bob Dobbs: you've overcome the five bodies,

[10:23] Bob Dobbs: maybe something else.

[10:25] Bob Dobbs: Then he says,

[10:25] Bob Dobbs: but you can't pass the Android Meme.

[10:30] Bob Dobbs: And

[10:31] Bob Dobbs: I agree with that.

[10:32] Bob Dobbs: That's how I present the Android Meme.

[10:34] Bob Dobbs: It's the beginning of technology taking off on its own,

[10:38] Bob Dobbs: and we're stuck with it,

[10:40] Bob Dobbs: and we've got to figure out how to relate to it.

[10:42] Bob Dobbs: And so with that in mind,

[10:44] Bob Dobbs: you can't beat the

[10:46] Bob Dobbs: Android Meme.

[10:47] Bob Dobbs: So the tech body says the digital body is getting the pan shot to show how it's all set up.

[10:53] Bob Dobbs: So the digital body outdoes what they're trying to use the Android Meme to predict.

[10:58] Bob Dobbs: See,

[10:58] Bob Dobbs: they're trying to.

[10:59] Bob Dobbs: They're not going to be really able to control the Android Meme,

[11:02] Bob Dobbs: maybe,

[11:03] Bob Dobbs: or to present honesty.

[11:04] Bob Dobbs: stage or in a stage.

[11:06] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[11:07] Bob Dobbs: here's a perfect example.

[11:09] Bob Dobbs: So the digital body wants to Trump president.

[11:15] Bob Dobbs: Here's a perfect example.

[11:16] Bob Dobbs: It can move so seamlessly that there's no way in hell Donald J.

[11:19] Bob Dobbs: Trump ever going to be elected the sitting president of the United States of America.

[11:23] Bob Dobbs: As a matter of fact,

[11:24] Bob Dobbs: he was never truly elected to be president of the United States of America.

[11:28] Bob Dobbs: But I got that right.

[11:29] Bob Dobbs: It can move so that there's no way in hell.

[11:31] Bob Dobbs: A perfect example.

[11:33] Bob Dobbs: The tech bias is you can't

[11:37] Bob Dobbs: Who's saying that?

[11:38] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[11:38] Bob Dobbs: here's a perfect example.

[11:39] Bob Dobbs: It can move those things.

[11:40] Bob Dobbs: There's no way in hell Trump going to be elected.

[11:43] Bob Dobbs: He's saying the digital body wants to outdo it.

[11:46] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[11:46] Bob Dobbs: so the digital body is trying to elect

[11:56] Bob Dobbs: Trump the tech body is saying you can't do it.

[12:00] Bob Dobbs: You can't exploit the Android Meme.

[12:02] Bob Dobbs: But the irony is Trump does get elected.

[12:05] Bob Dobbs: So,

[12:06] Bob Dobbs: yes,

[12:06] Bob Dobbs: it's hard to figure out what the tech body is saying here,

[12:09] Bob Dobbs: what their position is.

[12:10] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[12:11] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[12:12] Cameron McEwen: throughout the book,

[12:13] Cameron McEwen: there's always this interplay of voices.

[12:17] Cameron McEwen: So that interplay is not new here.

[12:21] Cameron McEwen: What

[12:22] Cameron McEwen: I think is important is to notice the word seamlessly,

[12:28] Cameron McEwen: which relates to conflation.

[12:30] Cameron McEwen: And so you have a thought.

[12:36] Cameron McEwen: like

[12:37] Cameron McEwen: Hillary apparently had in 2016,

[12:42] Cameron McEwen: that if a certain map were followed,

[12:46] Cameron McEwen: then there was no way in hell

[12:49] Cameron McEwen: Donald J.

[12:50] Cameron McEwen: Trump ever going to be elected.

[12:52] Cameron McEwen: So that sentence goes back to 2016,

[12:58] Cameron McEwen: and then the next sentence says that it takes...

[13:04] Cameron McEwen: the fact into consideration that he did get elected despite that seamlessness.

[13:13] Cameron McEwen: And therefore,

[13:15] Cameron McEwen: he was never,

[13:15] Cameron McEwen: ever truly elected.

[13:18] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[13:18] Bob Dobbs: And you were pointing out last week that seamlessly is you, Cameron.

[13:23] Bob Dobbs: That's your conflation meaning.

[13:25] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[13:26] Bob Dobbs: here's what's interesting.

[13:28] Bob Dobbs: iON said once Trump...

[13:34] Bob Dobbs: I was predicting before the 2020 election that this would lead to a civil war and a constitutional convention,

[13:43] Bob Dobbs: Donald Trump would be the viceroy of the new structure,

[13:48] Bob Dobbs: which would be feudalistic.

[13:51] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[13:51] Cameron McEwen: Bob,

[13:53] Cameron McEwen: what the word roy means?

[13:56] Bob Dobbs: No,

[13:56] Bob Dobbs: viceroy.

[13:57] Bob Dobbs: No.

[13:58] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[13:59] Cameron McEwen: it's the French for king,

[14:01] Cameron McEwen: right?

[14:01] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[14:01] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[14:02] Bob Dobbs: vice king.

[14:04] Bob Dobbs: Vice president kind of thing.

[14:05] Bob Dobbs: He's not the king,

[14:06] Bob Dobbs: but he's second king in the British system.

[14:09] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[14:10] Cameron McEwen: You have to think of the vice.

[14:12] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[14:12] Cameron McEwen: The viceroy of India,

[14:13] Cameron McEwen: for example,

[14:15] Cameron McEwen: is really the executive head of all of India.

[14:21] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[14:22] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[14:23] Bob Dobbs: So what's interesting is that in general,

[14:31] Bob Dobbs: I am predicted.

[14:33] Bob Dobbs: Trump would win,

[14:35] Bob Dobbs: be re-elected,

[14:36] Bob Dobbs: and they said it would be 49 to 1.

[14:40] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[14:40] Bob Dobbs: we accepted that.

[14:42] Bob Dobbs: And I remember him saying the one that wouldn't elect him would be

[14:49] Bob Dobbs: Hawaii, where I'm living.

[14:54] Bob Dobbs: But it's a very big welfare state,

[14:58] Bob Dobbs: ratio-wise.

[15:03] Bob Dobbs: Thursday before the election.

[15:06] Bob Dobbs: I have it in a private session.

[15:08] Bob Dobbs: I ask,

[15:10] Bob Dobbs: redo the questioning.

[15:11] Bob Dobbs: So Trump going to win the election?

[15:13] Bob Dobbs: No.

[15:14] Bob Dobbs: Is Biden going to win the election?

[15:16] Bob Dobbs: No.

[15:17] Bob Dobbs: So I go,

[15:18] Bob Dobbs: well,

[15:18] Bob Dobbs: who's going to be elected?

[15:21] Bob Dobbs: Or maybe I said,

[15:21] Bob Dobbs: who's going to win the election?

[15:23] Bob Dobbs: And they say,

[15:24] Bob Dobbs: what election?

[15:26] Bob Dobbs: And it's left there.

[15:27] Bob Dobbs: I didn't pursue it.

[15:29] Bob Dobbs: And that was an odd statement by iON.

[15:32] Bob Dobbs: But

[15:33] Bob Dobbs: iON had been making fun of how

[15:36] Bob Dobbs: Biden had not been campaigning properly,

[15:38] Bob Dobbs: so

[15:39] Bob Dobbs: I might have taken it that way,

[15:40] Bob Dobbs: that there was something odd about the election.

[15:42] Bob Dobbs: But then the election happened,

[15:44] Bob Dobbs: and very quickly protests and Sidney Powell got in the news and said there was rigging,

[15:49] Bob Dobbs: and other people presented evidence.

[15:52] Bob Dobbs: So

[15:53] Bob Dobbs: I now say that the most perceptive statement of 2020 was iON's statement.

[16:01] Bob Dobbs: Neither got elected.

[16:03] Bob Dobbs: And...

[16:04] Bob Dobbs: And it wasn't a real election because of the rigging.

[16:07] Bob Dobbs: And there's a whole half of America believes it was rigged on the Republican side.

[16:13] Bob Dobbs: And it's even increasing.

[16:15] Bob Dobbs: And

[16:16] Bob Dobbs: Mike Lindell,

[16:17] Bob Dobbs: the MyPillow guy,

[16:18] Bob Dobbs: he is moving forward.

[16:20] Bob Dobbs: The judge accepted what he had presented so far,

[16:23] Bob Dobbs: so he's still pushing his case through.

[16:26] Bob Dobbs: And Sidney Powell is doing well.

[16:29] Bob Dobbs: The Arizona audit,

[16:30] Bob Dobbs: they haven't been stopped.

[16:32] Bob Dobbs: So we'll see where that goes.

[16:34] Bob Dobbs: But then people said,

[16:36] Bob Dobbs: well,

[16:37] Bob Dobbs: iON screwed up.

[16:37] Bob Dobbs: He predicted that Biden would win.

[16:40] Bob Dobbs: And they said,

[16:42] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[16:42] Bob Dobbs: 49 to 1.

[16:43] Cameron McEwen: So either iON...

[16:46] Cameron McEwen: Trump win.

[16:47] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[16:47] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[16:47] Bob Dobbs: Trump win.

[16:48] Bob Dobbs: And so I either asked in a private session or on the show,

[16:53] Bob Dobbs: and

[16:57] Bob Dobbs: iON's answer was,

[16:59] Bob Dobbs: we didn't say electoral votes.

[17:02] Bob Dobbs: We said states.

[17:04] Bob Dobbs: And we were referring to the inevitable Constitutional Convention and Trump will win that.

[17:10] Bob Dobbs: So we were all tricked by that.

[17:12] Bob Dobbs: We didn't catch that.

[17:13] Bob Dobbs: We just thought,

[17:13] Bob Dobbs: oh,

[17:14] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[17:14] Bob Dobbs: 49 states to one,

[17:16] Bob Dobbs: that's

[17:17] Bob Dobbs: Trump landslide.

[17:19] Bob Dobbs: And we thought that's what iON meant.

[17:21] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[17:21] Bob Dobbs: maybe iON did mean that,

[17:23] Bob Dobbs: but they had a great cover story to say,

[17:26] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[17:26] Bob Dobbs: or alibi.

[17:27] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[17:27] Bob Dobbs: no,

[17:27] Bob Dobbs: we're just talking about the Constitutional Convention.

[17:31] Bob Dobbs: So depending on your...

[17:33] Bob Dobbs: Your alignment with iON or accepting what iON does,

[17:38] Bob Dobbs: you're cynical about it or not.

[17:40] Bob Dobbs: Anyways,

[17:40] Bob Dobbs: it was a great cover.

[17:42] Bob Dobbs: But he did say,

[17:45] Bob Dobbs: and he's talking a year before what was going to happen.

[17:48] Bob Dobbs: And then every now and then,

[17:50] Bob Dobbs: every few months,

[17:51] Bob Dobbs: give an update.

[17:53] Bob Dobbs: And it seemed to be generally because of the 49-1 Trump would win.

[17:56] Bob Dobbs: But then he did say right before the election Trump would lose.

[18:01] Bob Dobbs: And...

[18:03] Bob Dobbs: I would have played that on the Saturday,

[18:06] Bob Dobbs: and then

[18:07] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if anybody noticed,

[18:09] Bob Dobbs: no one ever brought it up after the election,

[18:11] Bob Dobbs: but then I brought it up,

[18:12] Bob Dobbs: and then people had to deal with it.

[18:14] Bob Dobbs: So taking all that,

[18:17] Bob Dobbs: so then recently iON said Trump,

[18:20] Bob Dobbs: iON has always said for years that

[18:24] Bob Dobbs: Obama was the last president of the United States.

[18:28] Bob Dobbs: And we can see that.

[18:29] Bob Dobbs: He was the typical proper president.

[18:31] Bob Dobbs: Trump something different.

[18:33] Bob Dobbs: And so,

[18:35] Bob Dobbs: iON Trump was actually Viceroy in 2016 to 2020,

[18:43] Bob Dobbs: and as Viceroy,

[18:44] Bob Dobbs: he mocked the legislature,

[18:45] Bob Dobbs: the judiciary,

[18:48] Bob Dobbs: and the presidency itself.

[18:52] Bob Dobbs: So,

[18:52] Bob Dobbs: it goes into a few details about the legislature was made to look like a fool.

[18:58] Bob Dobbs: The Republicans were made to be a fool.

[19:00] Bob Dobbs: They were controlled by the crazy Trump.

[19:03] Bob Dobbs: And I don't know what he did with the Supreme Court.

[19:07] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if he wrecked that,

[19:09] Bob Dobbs: though it is wrecked now for those that think Trump cheated.

[19:13] Bob Dobbs: They don't like the Supreme Court not taking it seriously,

[19:17] Bob Dobbs: the charge Trump actually was subject to a fraudulent election.

[19:22] Bob Dobbs: So it's a stretch,

[19:24] Bob Dobbs: but iON says he was mocking the whole thing,

[19:27] Bob Dobbs: and on a certain level he was.

[19:29] Bob Dobbs: And that's probably the reason why so many people hated Trump.

[19:31] Bob Dobbs: He was besotted.

[19:33] Bob Dobbs: smirching the institutions of Washington.

[19:36] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[19:37] Bob Dobbs: so in light of that,

[19:40] Bob Dobbs: the tech body says,

[19:41] Bob Dobbs: here's a perfect example.

[19:44] Bob Dobbs: It can move so seamlessly that there's no way in hell Donald J.

[19:47] Bob Dobbs: Trump ever going to be elected the sitting president of the United States of America.

[19:51] Bob Dobbs: But that's about 2016,

[19:52] Bob Dobbs: which has happened,

[19:53] Bob Dobbs: and he did.

[19:54] Bob Dobbs: As a matter of fact,

[19:55] Bob Dobbs: he was never truly,

[19:56] Bob Dobbs: now look at that,

[19:57] Bob Dobbs: he was never truly elected to be president of the United States of America.

[20:00] Bob Dobbs: There's iON.

[20:02] Bob Dobbs: in October 2020,

[20:05] Bob Dobbs: anticipating what he says in 2021,

[20:09] Bob Dobbs: that he was never president,

[20:11] Bob Dobbs: he was the viceroy.

[20:13] Bob Dobbs: So later developments,

[20:16] Bob Dobbs: you can read that differently.

[20:18] Bob Dobbs: Then he says,

[20:18] Bob Dobbs: so we need to rewrite,

[20:20] Bob Dobbs: we need to redo.

[20:24] Bob Dobbs: That is what,

[20:28] Bob Dobbs: I'm not sure who the,

[20:30] Bob Dobbs: who's saying that.

[20:33] Cameron McEwen: The Democrats.

[20:36] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[20:37] Bob Dobbs: He hasn't said Biden yet.

[20:40] Cameron McEwen: You have to go back to the start of the paragraph where he says trying to use the Android Meme.

[20:48] Cameron McEwen: So the trying to use what seemed unbeatable,

[21:00] Cameron McEwen: lost.

[21:01] Cameron McEwen: in 2016.

[21:03] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[21:03] Cameron McEwen: And so,

[21:05] Cameron McEwen: and then,

[21:06] Cameron McEwen: so that's the first paragraph,

[21:08] Cameron McEwen: which is the perfect example,

[21:10] Cameron McEwen: right?

[21:10] Cameron McEwen: So then he,

[21:11] Cameron McEwen: the second,

[21:12] Cameron McEwen: I'm sorry,

[21:13] Cameron McEwen: the first sentence of the perfect example,

[21:16] Cameron McEwen: and then the second sentence goes from the prediction,

[21:24] Cameron McEwen: goes from the lack of ability to to elect

[21:29] Cameron McEwen: Hillary through the Android Meme in 2016,

[21:33] Cameron McEwen: it goes to the reaction to that loss.

[21:40] Cameron McEwen: And the reaction is,

[21:41] Cameron McEwen: as a matter of fact,

[21:42] Cameron McEwen: he was never truly elected.

[21:44] Cameron McEwen: That is to say that according to the lights governed by the Android Meme,

[21:57] Cameron McEwen: He wasn't going to be elected,

[21:59] Cameron McEwen: and when he was elected,

[22:00] Cameron McEwen: he wasn't truly elected.

[22:01] Bob Dobbs: And Hillary did say that.

[22:03] Bob Dobbs: Hillary said Russia helped

[22:05] Bob Dobbs: Trump become president.

[22:06] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[22:06] Cameron McEwen: definitely.

[22:07] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[22:07] Cameron McEwen: Mike's other things.

[22:08] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[22:08] Cameron McEwen: of course.

[22:10] Cameron McEwen: The one thing I want to point out.

[22:11] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[22:11] Bob Dobbs: wait a minute.

[22:12] Bob Dobbs: But it can move so soon that there's no way in hell Donald J.

[22:15] Bob Dobbs: Trump ever going to be elected.

[22:17] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[22:18] Bob Dobbs: Hillary and the Android Meme are saying that.

[22:22] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[22:22] Bob Dobbs: But then there's the election.

[22:26] Bob Dobbs: Donald Trump wins,

[22:27] Bob Dobbs: and we know that.

[22:28] Bob Dobbs: And then you have the continuation of the Android Meme and Hillary saying no.

[22:32] Bob Dobbs: As a matter of fact,

[22:33] Bob Dobbs: he was never truly elected.

[22:34] Bob Dobbs: So that's a prediction there by iON.

[22:39] Bob Dobbs: No,

[22:39] Bob Dobbs: the tech party is saying we're trying to use the Android Meme to predict,

[22:42] Bob Dobbs: present in a stage.

[22:46] Bob Dobbs: They're just talking about the first part,

[22:47] Bob Dobbs: that he's not going to be elected.

[22:48] Bob Dobbs: But then it jumps and switches without clarity to the fact Trump won.

[22:53] Bob Dobbs: And then it goes back to Hillary and them demanding to redo the election or cancel it.

[23:00] Bob Dobbs: Then,

[23:01] Bob Dobbs: then it goes...

[23:03] Cameron McEwen: Note that there's a seamlessness between those two sentences.

[23:07] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[23:08] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[23:09] Cameron McEwen: There's no way in hell that he's ever going to win goes seamlessly to the fact that he didn't win.

[23:18] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[23:19] Bob Dobbs: they end up claiming he didn't win.

[23:20] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[23:21] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[23:21] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[23:22] Cameron McEwen: good point.

[23:22] Cameron McEwen: And in both cases,

[23:25] Cameron McEwen: there's a variation from reality.

[23:28] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[23:29] Cameron McEwen: The prediction can't really predict,

[23:32] Cameron McEwen: and then because it can't really predict,

[23:36] Cameron McEwen: there was something wrong with reality,

[23:39] Cameron McEwen: and he wasn't elected.

[23:42] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[23:44] Bob Dobbs: We're trying to use the Android Meme,

[23:46] Bob Dobbs: but something beat the Android Meme,

[23:48] Bob Dobbs: and then that points to the tech body.

[23:50] Bob Dobbs: which I say goes further than the Android Meme.

[23:54] Cameron McEwen: But how?

[23:55] Cameron McEwen: That's an interesting question.

[23:56] Cameron McEwen: I don't understand that.

[23:58] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[23:58] Bob Dobbs: let's see if we can come to an Explorations of that.

[24:03] Bob Dobbs: So then the last paragraph,

[24:05] Bob Dobbs: the typewriter says,

[24:06] Bob Dobbs: here we go,

[24:07] Bob Dobbs: they're setting a stage,

[24:08] Bob Dobbs: which he had said,

[24:09] Bob Dobbs: they're trying to present it in a stage or a theatrical step-by-step.

[24:13] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[24:14] Bob Dobbs: they're not smart.

[24:15] Bob Dobbs: The holograph told somebody through numbers that were created through the digital body.

[24:22] Bob Dobbs: told somebody,

[24:23] Bob Dobbs: I don't know who somebody is,

[24:24] Bob Dobbs: but maybe Biden,

[24:25] Bob Dobbs: because it addresses Biden.

[24:27] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[24:29] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[24:29] Bob Dobbs: so Biden is running in 2020 when this is being recorded.

[24:32] Bob Dobbs: You're in trouble.

[24:33] Bob Dobbs: So Joe Biden.

[24:35] Cameron McEwen: You're in trouble is not being spoken to

[24:39] Cameron McEwen: Joe Biden as much as it is to the people who aren't smart.

[24:43] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[24:44] Cameron McEwen: And the people who aren't smart are the people that are trying to present something in a stage.

[24:50] Cameron McEwen: They're setting a stage.

[24:51] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[24:51] Cameron McEwen: And the stage in this sense is not a theatrical stage.

[24:55] Cameron McEwen: It's one stage after another of a process,

[24:59] Cameron McEwen: and that's governed by Gutenberg.

[25:02] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[25:03] Bob Dobbs: And so then you're so the hologram or the holograph told the people you're in trouble.

[25:11] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[25:12] Bob Dobbs: So,

[25:12] Bob Dobbs: Joe Biden,

[25:13] Bob Dobbs: here are the words that you should say.

[25:15] Bob Dobbs: So,

[25:15] Bob Dobbs: OK,

[25:15] Bob Dobbs: now

[25:16] Bob Dobbs: Biden's got to deal with his election.

[25:20] Bob Dobbs: So he says he implies he's going.

[25:28] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[25:28] Bob Dobbs: Joe Biden.

[25:30] Bob Dobbs: We're assuming that people.

[25:32] Bob Dobbs: Want Trump?

[25:36] Cameron McEwen: I would say it's like people often point out that propaganda always charges other people with what it itself is doing.

[25:49] Cameron McEwen: So here,

[25:53] Cameron McEwen: Biden says the only way Donald J.

[25:55] Cameron McEwen: Trump ever be elected president is from chicanery.

[25:58] Cameron McEwen: But the tech body may be saying...

[26:00] Cameron McEwen: So the only way Joe Biden did get elected is from chicanery.

[26:04] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[26:05] Bob Dobbs: So they're setting a stage.

[26:07] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[26:07] Bob Dobbs: they're not smart.

[26:08] Bob Dobbs: The holograph told somebody through numbers,

[26:10] Bob Dobbs: I guess that's ratings,

[26:13] Bob Dobbs: polls that were created.

[26:15] Cameron McEwen: Also the

[26:16] Cameron McEwen: Android Meme computational stuff.

[26:19] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[26:19] Bob Dobbs: The holograph told somebody through numbers that were created through the digital body,

[26:23] Bob Dobbs: you're in trouble.

[26:25] Bob Dobbs: So Joe Biden,

[26:26] Bob Dobbs: here are the words that you should say.

[26:27] Bob Dobbs: So Joe's got to explain.

[26:30] Bob Dobbs: Trump can't win and Joe is going to appear to be correct and

[26:37] Bob Dobbs: Trump doesn't win.

[26:39] Bob Dobbs: But then it reverses Donald Trump accuses Biden of doing chicanery.

[26:45] Bob Dobbs: So it's a bit confusing.

[26:47] Bob Dobbs: So then you've got to have quotes after chicanery.

[26:50] Bob Dobbs: And I've got to correct this and have the last sentence by any event from Vestal Goodman to Bachman-Turner Overdrive.

[26:56] Bob Dobbs: That has to be separate.

[26:57] Bob Dobbs: That is...

[26:59] Bob Dobbs: the tech body stepping away and being commenting on it the situation from its perspective where it's just taking distance yeah taking distance and it quotes uh i wouldn't take nothing from my journey now that

[27:17] Bob Dobbs: means there's some kind of everything is gone and uh it's a gospel song and Vestal Goodman is ready to go to heaven or something i wouldn't take it was

[27:28] Cameron McEwen: That was,

[27:29] Cameron McEwen: I think,

[27:29] Cameron McEwen: the last song that she did in public.

[27:34] Cameron McEwen: I'm not completely sure of that,

[27:37] Cameron McEwen: but that was sort of her theme song.

[27:41] Cameron McEwen: And when she knew she was dying,

[27:44] Cameron McEwen: I believe it was the last public song.

[27:48] Cameron McEwen: Wow,

[27:49] Bob Dobbs: you knew of her?

[27:51] Cameron McEwen: Actually,

[27:52] Cameron McEwen: Bob,

[27:53] Cameron McEwen: the way that I knew of Vestal Goodman was that years ago,

[27:57] Cameron McEwen: you had a video somewhere of her singing.

[28:02] Cameron McEwen: I don't think it was this.

[28:03] Cameron McEwen: I wouldn't take nothing for my journey,

[28:05] Cameron McEwen: but it was an incredible outburst.

[28:10] Cameron McEwen: I know what it was.

[28:11] Bob Dobbs: It's a city song.

[28:12] Bob Dobbs: She was competing with the young guy.

[28:15] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[28:15] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[28:16] Bob Dobbs: looking for a city,

[28:17] Bob Dobbs: looking for a city where I'll never die.

[28:20] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[28:20] Bob Dobbs: it's a great video.

[28:22] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[28:23] Cameron McEwen: So through your video,

[28:24] Cameron McEwen: I got interested in it.

[28:26] Bob Dobbs: So you found out about her,

[28:28] Bob Dobbs: got her history.

[28:29] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[28:29] Bob Dobbs: I didn't know that.

[28:31] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[28:31] Bob Dobbs: iON told me about her,

[28:32] Bob Dobbs: or J.W.

[28:33] Bob Dobbs: did,

[28:34] Bob Dobbs: back when I first met him.

[28:36] Bob Dobbs: And,

[28:37] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[28:39] Bob Dobbs: J.W.'s a southern gentleman,

[28:40] Bob Dobbs: and he went to church before iON.

[28:45] Bob Dobbs: And he used to sing in church,

[28:47] Bob Dobbs: and his family,

[28:49] Bob Dobbs: they knew Vestal Goodman because they were a wealthy family,

[28:52] Bob Dobbs: so it was very important in his youth.

[28:54] Bob Dobbs: Vestal Goodman.

[28:55] Bob Dobbs: So he told me about her and I watched it back then,

[28:58] Bob Dobbs: 2009 or 10,

[29:00] Bob Dobbs: and

[29:01] Bob Dobbs: I liked her.

[29:02] Bob Dobbs: And I started looking and I said,

[29:03] Bob Dobbs: wow,

[29:03] Bob Dobbs: she's incredible.

[29:04] Bob Dobbs: So I called her and I said I liked it.

[29:06] Bob Dobbs: And he couldn't believe that this northern guy liked

[29:10] Bob Dobbs: Vestal Goodman.

[29:10] Bob Dobbs: He was very surprised.

[29:13] Bob Dobbs: And so we made her a key singer on the show.

[29:19] Bob Dobbs: But then iON got an incredible pop culture knowledge.

[29:23] Bob Dobbs: and they're always using the Bachman-Turner Overdrive song.

[29:26] Bob Dobbs: You ain't seen nothing yet.

[29:28] Bob Dobbs: He would say that Trump won.

[29:31] Bob Dobbs: What's this mean,

[29:31] Bob Dobbs: Trump 2016?

[29:33] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[29:33] Bob Dobbs: you ain't seen nothing yet.

[29:35] Bob Dobbs: Of course,

[29:35] Bob Dobbs: that happened.

[29:36] Bob Dobbs: So these are two major themes that iON has always said,

[29:41] Bob Dobbs: and here you have the tech body appropriated for their own perspective.

[29:46] Bob Dobbs: By any event,

[29:48] Bob Dobbs: all the way from Vestal Goodman to Bachman-Turner Overdrive,

[29:51] Bob Dobbs: that's the...

[29:52] Bob Dobbs: the range of what we're gotten here.

[29:54] Bob Dobbs: That this tech,

[29:56] Bob Dobbs: iON is saying,

[29:57] Bob Dobbs: no,

[29:57] Bob Dobbs: the tech body is saying,

[29:59] Bob Dobbs: we are in charge now.

[30:01] Bob Dobbs: You ain't seen nothing yet.

[30:03] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?

[30:04] Bob Dobbs: That's the tech body talking.

[30:07] Cameron McEwen: Who knows?

[30:08] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[30:08] Cameron McEwen: no,

[30:08] Cameron McEwen: I know,

[30:09] Bob Dobbs: in retrospect.

[30:11] Bob Dobbs: Tech Body says,

[30:13] Bob Dobbs: we put Trump in,

[30:14] Bob Dobbs: and we made all this chaos,

[30:16] Bob Dobbs: and we're still doing it.

[30:18] Bob Dobbs: And so then you have a couple of articles,

[30:22] Bob Dobbs: Trump TV post-literate American president,

[30:27] Bob Dobbs: and then this guy who thought

[30:29] Bob Dobbs: Trump influenced by McLuhan when he read the Playboy interview Trump was young.

[30:33] Bob Dobbs: He has a whole bunch of stuff in that article,

[30:37] Bob Dobbs: Trump 26th.

[30:38] Bob Dobbs: Dean Victory,

[30:38] Bob Dobbs: no surprise from the Cluinites.

[30:42] Bob Dobbs: Nobody knows who that guy is or wrote all that stuff back in 2017 or so,

[30:48] Bob Dobbs: but he had,

[30:50] Bob Dobbs: he's quite,

[30:51] Bob Dobbs: he,

[30:52] Bob Dobbs: I think,

[30:54] Bob Dobbs: he presented,

[30:55] Bob Dobbs: no,

[30:56] Bob Dobbs: I got that wrong.

[30:56] Bob Dobbs: In 2012,

[30:58] Bob Dobbs: there was a guy out of Montreal who,

[31:00] Bob Dobbs: leading up to 2011,

[31:02] Bob Dobbs: the centenary,

[31:03] Bob Dobbs: presented all kinds of skits.

[31:05] Bob Dobbs: that he made up of McLuhan at the kitchen table dealing with his centenary.

[31:09] Bob Dobbs: Do you remember that?

[31:10] Bob Dobbs: Did you see that?

[31:11] Bob Dobbs: No,

[31:11] Bob Dobbs: no.

[31:12] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[31:13] Bob Dobbs: and he made up neat skits about how McLuhan was reacting to the centenary events and was quite cynical and was not impressed.

[31:21] Bob Dobbs: So that guy made that stuff up in Montreal.

[31:23] Bob Dobbs: Then someone comes along in 2017,

[31:25] Bob Dobbs: 2018 and Wright an essay showing Trump was McLuhan and influenced by McLuhan.

[31:32] Bob Dobbs: And that's that second article.

[31:34] Bob Dobbs: Trump 2016,

[31:36] Bob Dobbs: Trump victory,

[31:36] Bob Dobbs: no surprise for McLuhan.

[31:38] Bob Dobbs: So I just give those for people to see commentary on Trump thing,

[31:44] Bob Dobbs: using McLuhan.

[31:46] Bob Dobbs: And then these are my final instructions to the reader.

[31:51] Bob Dobbs: So memorize the quote below,

[31:54] Bob Dobbs: which is about the novel Catch-22 from Take Today.

[31:58] Bob Dobbs: I say memorize the two sentences in red below.

[32:01] Bob Dobbs: Have them ready for all conversations about McLuhan.

[32:04] Bob Dobbs: and say it's what McLuhan discovered,

[32:07] Bob Dobbs: the Catch-22 point about the black market,

[32:12] Bob Dobbs: and then I say make this quote about Catch-22 more famous than the medium is the message.

[32:18] Bob Dobbs: Because my whole thesis in general is people are

[32:23] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan who have just the cliché understanding of McLuhan are not going to understand what's happening in the media,

[32:33] Bob Dobbs: the Android Meme.

[32:34] Bob Dobbs: and the tech body and Trump.

[32:38] Bob Dobbs: So when they had the,

[32:44] Bob Dobbs: his name,

[32:44] Bob Dobbs: Paolo,

[32:46] Bob Dobbs: had a ongoing series of panels in the spring of 2020 during the COVID thing when everybody was locked down at the beginning of it.

[32:59] Bob Dobbs: And so he thought,

[33:00] Bob Dobbs: well,

[33:00] Bob Dobbs: let's just get all the McLuhan around the world to discuss.

[33:04] Bob Dobbs: reality and what's happening.

[33:07] Bob Dobbs: And I found it quite timid,

[33:11] Bob Dobbs: not McLuhan at all.

[33:14] Bob Dobbs: They were reacting emotionally Trump and the content,

[33:19] Bob Dobbs: a lot of personal projections,

[33:21] Bob Dobbs: no technical observation.

[33:25] Bob Dobbs: Like he says to Pierre

[33:27] Bob Dobbs: Schaeffer, I'm an esoteric observer,

[33:29] Bob Dobbs: no esoteric observation going on by all these McLuhan scholars.

[33:33] Bob Dobbs: That prompted me,

[33:34] Bob Dobbs: we need to update McLuhan.

[33:37] Bob Dobbs: And so I started emphasizing quotes that people don't know to show the range of the medium and what it applied to,

[33:45] Bob Dobbs: and especially the economy.

[33:48] Bob Dobbs: So the quote is,

[33:51] Bob Dobbs: by Mark McLuhan and Barrington Nevitt,

[33:53] Bob Dobbs: take today,

[33:53] Bob Dobbs: 1972,

[33:57] Bob Dobbs: page 211,

[33:58] Bob Dobbs: in the novel Catch-22.

[33:59] Bob Dobbs: So it says,

[33:59] Bob Dobbs: in Catch-22,

[34:00] Bob Dobbs: the figure of the black market.

[34:02] Bob Dobbs: and the ground of war merged into a monster presided over by the syndicate.

[34:08] Bob Dobbs: Then in italics,

[34:09] Bob Dobbs: when war and market merge,

[34:12] Bob Dobbs: all money transactions begin to drip blood.

[34:15] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[34:15] Bob Dobbs: in the

[34:16] Bob Dobbs: 60s, if you thought McLuhan was saying that the global village would be a pastoral scene,

[34:24] Bob Dobbs: if you did a little study,

[34:25] Bob Dobbs: you'd find out,

[34:25] Bob Dobbs: no,

[34:26] Bob Dobbs: global villages are not peaceful and pastoral.

[34:28] Bob Dobbs: That's a

[34:29] Bob Dobbs: Gutenberg projection.

[34:32] Bob Dobbs: And if you got that far,

[34:34] Bob Dobbs: then you said,

[34:34] Bob Dobbs: well,

[34:34] Bob Dobbs: what is this?

[34:35] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[34:36] Bob Dobbs: it's a global theater.

[34:37] Bob Dobbs: And certainly the world got more violent in the 70s,

[34:41] Bob Dobbs: 80s,

[34:41] Bob Dobbs: 90s than the,

[34:43] Bob Dobbs: quote,

[34:44] Bob Dobbs: utopianism around the

[34:46] Bob Dobbs: 60s.

[34:47] Bob Dobbs: anticipated.

[34:49] Bob Dobbs: And my point is,

[34:50] Bob Dobbs: McClellan did anticipate it.

[34:52] Bob Dobbs: He said in Playboy magazine in December 68,

[34:56] Bob Dobbs: mind your media men or you're going to catch a cold environment.

[35:00] Bob Dobbs: That's in that 67-68 period of hippie optimism and whatever other optimism was going on.

[35:08] Bob Dobbs: It was dashed the last month of 68,

[35:12] Bob Dobbs: early 69,

[35:13] Bob Dobbs: with Nixon becoming president.

[35:15] Bob Dobbs: And then the you

[35:17] Bob Dobbs: A bombing of Cambodia,

[35:20] Bob Dobbs: and then the Kent State Massacre.

[35:21] Bob Dobbs: These were baby boomer events.

[35:23] Bob Dobbs: But here's McLuhan in 72,

[35:27] Bob Dobbs: but you have to know that he started writing this in 68.

[35:31] Cameron McEwen: He started writing this in 1950.

[35:35] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[35:38] Bob Dobbs: These are statements that McLuhan,

[35:39] Bob Dobbs: you didn't find them unless you read closely.

[35:42] Bob Dobbs: He was capable of saying this many years before.

[35:45] Bob Dobbs: He even said 1984 was obsolete.

[35:47] Bob Dobbs: It was further along than

[35:49] Bob Dobbs: Orwell's 84.

[35:51] Bob Dobbs: So this is a quote that you would say in the 70s,

[35:55] Bob Dobbs: 80s,

[35:56] Bob Dobbs: and 90s,

[35:57] Bob Dobbs: if you were really smart,

[35:59] Bob Dobbs: if somebody brings up McLuhan,

[36:00] Bob Dobbs: you'd say,

[36:00] Bob Dobbs: well,

[36:01] Bob Dobbs: he said that when war and market merge,

[36:03] Bob Dobbs: all money transactions begin to drip blood.

[36:06] Bob Dobbs: You say that to anybody,

[36:08] Bob Dobbs: they're going to go,

[36:08] Bob Dobbs: what?

[36:09] Bob Dobbs: What did you just say?

[36:10] Bob Dobbs: It would be as startling as the medium as the message was in 1963 or so.

[36:14] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?

[36:15] Bob Dobbs: They go,

[36:16] Bob Dobbs: what?

[36:16] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[36:16] Cameron McEwen: it should be.

[36:17] Cameron McEwen: It should be.

[36:18] Cameron McEwen: I don't think it would be.

[36:21] Cameron McEwen: No,

[36:22] Cameron McEwen: it should be.

[36:23] Cameron McEwen: You said it would be startling,

[36:24] Cameron McEwen: but unfortunately,

[36:27] Cameron McEwen: most of these folks can't be startled.

[36:29] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[36:30] Bob Dobbs: They wouldn't hear it.

[36:34] Bob Dobbs: Especially a non-academic like myself would not be listened to.

[36:38] Bob Dobbs: But

[36:39] Bob Dobbs: I used to say this on the radio,

[36:41] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[36:41] Bob Dobbs: in the 80s.

[36:42] Bob Dobbs: It's amazing what I did.

[36:45] Bob Dobbs: I was a prophet within McLuhan land.

[36:47] Bob Dobbs: I would say this point.

[36:50] Bob Dobbs: And I would do that to explain the increasing feeling in the 80s and 90s that there were conspiracies and murders and assassinations and pretty dirty world happening in America that later became a big meme with Alex Jones and those people.

[37:08] Bob Dobbs: Me and Bob Marshall were the first to talk this way in radio culture.

[37:15] Bob Dobbs: It was considered underground and fringe because it was the university station,

[37:19] Bob Dobbs: but we became known and articles were written about me.

[37:24] Bob Dobbs: I held up,

[37:25] Bob Dobbs: there's a picture of me and Carolyn 1990.

[37:27] Bob Dobbs: I'm holding up

[37:34] Bob Dobbs: Take Today,

[37:36] Bob Dobbs: and Carol is holding up

[37:39] Bob Dobbs: Dope Inc.

[37:39] Bob Dobbs: by Lyndon LaRouche,

[37:40] Bob Dobbs: which is all about the drug world.

[37:45] Bob Dobbs: getting into regular banking,

[37:46] Bob Dobbs: merging with banking.

[37:49] Bob Dobbs: So we're showing two aspects,

[37:51] Bob Dobbs: the global theater,

[37:53] Bob Dobbs: and the bottom up is the global theater effect,

[37:56] Bob Dobbs: and the top down is dope ink.

[38:01] Bob Dobbs: LaRouche is a conspiracy view of history.

[38:06] Bob Dobbs: And they were very good journalists,

[38:07] Bob Dobbs: and they had a lot of details,

[38:09] Bob Dobbs: and more and more conspiracies were showing up.

[38:14] Bob Dobbs: the...

[38:14] Bob Dobbs: Justice Department busting dope networks around the world.

[38:18] Bob Dobbs: You had the P2 gangs in Italy.

[38:21] Bob Dobbs: They were probably shot the

[38:23] Bob Dobbs: 30-day pope.

[38:24] Bob Dobbs: Anyway,

[38:24] Bob Dobbs: it goes on.

[38:26] Bob Dobbs: Marshall was anticipating it with this quote.

[38:30] Bob Dobbs: All money transactions begin to drip blood,

[38:32] Bob Dobbs: or they appear to,

[38:34] Bob Dobbs: when war and market merge.

[38:36] Bob Dobbs: So a great ending,

[38:39] Bob Dobbs: and

[38:41] Bob Dobbs: Kevin recognizes it's a great ending.

[38:44] Bob Dobbs: And what do we...

[38:48] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[38:49] Bob Dobbs: what would you like to say about the ending?

[38:51] Bob Dobbs: What do you have to say about it?

[38:54] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[38:54] Cameron McEwen: I'll just say that the idea of the figure and ground merging into a monster was a recurrent theme of McLuhan in the

[39:07] Bob Dobbs: 70s. Yes.

[39:08] Cameron McEwen: He...

[39:10] Cameron McEwen: One of the funnier...

[39:13] Cameron McEwen: It's...

[39:13] Cameron McEwen: of this was that he tended to see go-go girls in those terms.

[39:21] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[39:22] Cameron McEwen: The go-go girl in her cage was a kind of monster that nobody recognized as such.

[39:30] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[39:31] Bob Dobbs: And there's a famous footage of him.

[39:33] Bob Dobbs: I think it's the CBC show Telescope.

[39:36] Bob Dobbs: And he's in the disco and he says,

[39:39] Bob Dobbs: Are they going to turn that down?

[39:42] Bob Dobbs: He's supposed to be commenting on the go-go girls behind him,

[39:46] Bob Dobbs: and he doesn't think it's quiet enough.

[39:48] Bob Dobbs: And they don't turn it down,

[39:50] Bob Dobbs: so he's got to keep talking.

[39:51] Bob Dobbs: And what he says,

[39:52] Bob Dobbs: if you remember,

[39:53] Bob Dobbs: do you know Telescope?

[39:54] Bob Dobbs: Do you know what I'm quoting?

[39:57] Cameron McEwen: I think I may have seen it years ago.

[39:58] Cameron McEwen: I can't remember.

[39:59] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[39:59] Bob Dobbs: so what he says,

[40:01] Bob Dobbs: he says,

[40:01] Bob Dobbs: pop music or anti-environment presses up against you like foam.

[40:07] Bob Dobbs: Now...

[40:08] Bob Dobbs: That's what girls wore back then.

[40:10] Bob Dobbs: They were called falsies.

[40:12] Bob Dobbs: They put foam in their chest to make themselves have bigger tits or sculpting bigger tits.

[40:19] Bob Dobbs: And then you'd dance close and you'd feel the foam or you'd not know it was foam.

[40:24] Bob Dobbs: But he's describing pop culture as tactile and pressing up against you like foam.

[40:31] Bob Dobbs: This is what he says.

[40:33] Bob Dobbs: It's a pretty incredible statement.

[40:35] Bob Dobbs: Do you remember that?

[40:38] Cameron McEwen: Vaguely,

[40:38] Cameron McEwen: vaguely,

[40:39] Cameron McEwen: but

[40:40] Cameron McEwen: I think it's interesting for all sorts of reasons.

[40:48] Cameron McEwen: Your point about tactility is very good.

[40:51] Bob Dobbs: And it is proprioceptive,

[40:54] Bob Dobbs: right,

[40:54] Bob Dobbs: pressing up against it.

[40:57] Cameron McEwen: But foam isn't just foam rubber.

[41:02] Cameron McEwen: Foam is also unsubstantiated.

[41:07] Cameron McEwen: In substantial bubbles.

[41:10] Bob Dobbs: Right,

[41:10] Bob Dobbs: which is a line he describes about TV in 55 in Radio and TV versus the Absent Minded.

[41:17] Bob Dobbs: He talks about TV being a spume.

[41:20] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[41:20] Cameron McEwen: Spume.

[41:21] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[41:21] Bob Dobbs: no,

[41:22] Bob Dobbs: that's important,

[41:22] Bob Dobbs: the foam part.

[41:23] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[41:23] Bob Dobbs: good point.

[41:26] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[41:27] Cameron McEwen: so the figure and ground merging into a monster goes back to...

[41:36] Cameron McEwen: to the conflation point,

[41:39] Cameron McEwen: I think it was on page 183,

[41:43] Cameron McEwen: which we identified as the essence of Gutenberg.

[41:47] Cameron McEwen: So the

[41:49] Cameron McEwen: Gutenberg galaxy gets eclipsed in one way by electricity starting way back in the

[42:02] Cameron McEwen: 19th century.

[42:03] Cameron McEwen: But in another way,

[42:06] Cameron McEwen: it

[42:07] Cameron McEwen: eats electricity and becomes a world monster that is basically threatening not only our survival,

[42:20] Cameron McEwen: but all the poor creatures that depend upon our sanity.

[42:27] Cameron McEwen: So what's being talked about here is seen as people...

[42:36] Cameron McEwen: that are tornado followers or something,

[42:42] Cameron McEwen: where you see this huge black maelstrom,

[42:48] Cameron McEwen: if you will,

[42:50] Cameron McEwen: tending towards the unfortunate city.

[42:54] Cameron McEwen: And

[42:56] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan is wondering if there's something we can do about this or not.

[43:03] Bob Dobbs: Are there tornadoes in...

[43:06] Bob Dobbs: Manitoba and the prairies?

[43:08] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[43:08] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.

[43:10] Cameron McEwen: Regina downtown was largely leveled by a tornado in 1912.

[43:18] Bob Dobbs: Wow.

[43:18] Cameron McEwen: And there's still buildings in downtown Regina where you can see where the building was repaired.

[43:25] Cameron McEwen: It wasn't hurt badly enough to just knock down,

[43:29] Cameron McEwen: like many buildings were.

[43:31] Cameron McEwen: And so you can see buildings in Regina that...

[43:34] Cameron McEwen: have an old portion and a new portion from the tornado.

[43:39] Bob Dobbs: And you grew up in Regina,

[43:40] Bob Dobbs: right?

[43:41] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.

[43:42] Cameron McEwen: Born in Regina.

[43:43] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[43:43] Bob Dobbs: Did you experience tornadoes as a youth?

[43:46] Cameron McEwen: No,

[43:47] Cameron McEwen: no.

[43:48] Bob Dobbs: So they're rare.

[43:50] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[43:50] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[43:50] Cameron McEwen: Very rare in the prairies.

[43:52] Cameron McEwen: They're mostly in a line extending from sort of Texas to Chicago.

[44:00] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[44:01] Cameron McEwen: That misses.

[44:02] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[44:03] Cameron McEwen: the Dakotas and the prairies.

[44:05] Cameron McEwen: But sometimes you have one.

[44:07] Cameron McEwen: And what you do have in Western Canada are very bad hailstorms.

[44:14] Cameron McEwen: And because of the flatness of the landscape,

[44:18] Cameron McEwen: you can see these black clouds of hailstorm coming towards you,

[44:26] Cameron McEwen: more or less like a prairie fire.

[44:29] Cameron McEwen: And there's nothing you can do.

[44:30] Cameron McEwen: Please.

[44:32] Cameron McEwen: Clowns are absolutely enormous and they just descend on you.

[44:38] Cameron McEwen: with this hail,

[44:40] Cameron McEwen: and all of the unfortunate farmers for miles around just got wiped out for that year.

[44:46] Bob Dobbs: Wow,

[44:47] Bob Dobbs: and it breaks windows?

[44:49] Cameron McEwen: Sometimes.

[44:50] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[44:51] Bob Dobbs: but the real problem is it wipes out the crops.

[44:54] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[44:56] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[44:58] Bob Dobbs: now,

[44:59] Bob Dobbs: in 74,

[45:01] Bob Dobbs: in one of the Coach House Monday night seminars,

[45:03] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan hands out...

[45:06] Bob Dobbs: his introduction to the tetrad,

[45:08] Bob Dobbs: which was just starting to be written about in a couple of articles in 73 and 74.

[45:14] Bob Dobbs: Nobody really knew about it.

[45:15] Bob Dobbs: They weren't following these obscure journals unless McLuhan told them that they were a student that year.

[45:21] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[45:21] Bob Dobbs: if you were a student,

[45:23] Bob Dobbs: you knew what McLuhan was doing if you were paying attention.

[45:26] Bob Dobbs: He'd tell you.

[45:27] Bob Dobbs: He'd have some of the articles sitting there on the table.

[45:30] Bob Dobbs: So it was a tetrad on the...

[45:34] Bob Dobbs: Law of etherealization,

[45:36] Bob Dobbs: which I think is a Buckminster Fuller phrase,

[45:38] Bob Dobbs: or maybe a novel point.

[45:39] Cameron McEwen: Sounds like him,

[45:41] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[45:41] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[45:42] Bob Dobbs: or Toynbee,

[45:42] Bob Dobbs: one of those guys.

[45:44] Cameron McEwen: Taken from Toynbee.

[45:46] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[45:46] Bob Dobbs: Toynbee,

[45:47] Bob Dobbs: I think,

[45:47] Bob Dobbs: was the guy.

[45:48] Bob Dobbs: So the law of etherealization,

[45:50] Bob Dobbs: and in it he says figure somewhere in the tetrad,

[45:54] Bob Dobbs: which

[45:56] Bob Dobbs: I guess in the enhancement,

[45:57] Bob Dobbs: figure becomes ground,

[45:59] Bob Dobbs: which becomes a monster.

[46:01] Bob Dobbs: That's what he said.

[46:02] Bob Dobbs: the merger of figure and ground becomes a monster.

[46:05] Bob Dobbs: So that's the first time I heard him talk about monster other than Titan and the Mechanical Bride,

[46:12] Bob Dobbs: late 40s,

[46:13] Bob Dobbs: early 50s.

[46:16] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[46:17] Bob Dobbs: actually in 73 is the Exorcist,

[46:20] Bob Dobbs: and that's kind of monstrous.

[46:22] Bob Dobbs: But I hadn't seen the word monster at that point in 74 much.

[46:26] Bob Dobbs: So he pointed out the figure and ground become a monster.

[46:30] Bob Dobbs: And so it's...

[46:33] Cameron McEwen: But we should note that from the Second World War on,

[46:41] Cameron McEwen: there were monster movies,

[46:42] Cameron McEwen: especially from Japan.

[46:44] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[46:44] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[46:45] Bob Dobbs: I know about that.

[46:46] Cameron McEwen: So people were fascinated by the movies about all of these monsters that might threaten from outer space.

[46:58] Cameron McEwen: Sometimes it was from outer space.

[47:01] Cameron McEwen: And sometimes it was from,

[47:04] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[47:05] Cameron McEwen: the past.

[47:06] Cameron McEwen: The ground,

[47:07] Bob Dobbs: under the sea,

[47:09] Bob Dobbs: a Rodan would come out of the sea.

[47:11] Cameron McEwen: Godzilla.

[47:12] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[47:15] Bob Dobbs: And you know who did a lot of playing with that was Zappa.

[47:18] Bob Dobbs: He had songs called

[47:21] Bob Dobbs: King Kong.

[47:22] Bob Dobbs: He named one of his sons,

[47:24] Bob Dobbs: his middle name is Rodan.

[47:27] Bob Dobbs: He named him after the monster.

[47:34] Bob Dobbs: So in 72,

[47:35] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan is talking about inflation and how you move the tiniest thing at the speed of light,

[47:44] Bob Dobbs: it acquires infinite mass.

[47:46] Bob Dobbs: He came up with a practical application,

[47:48] Bob Dobbs: say in sociology or markets,

[47:53] Bob Dobbs: of E equals mc squared.

[47:57] Bob Dobbs: He said,

[47:58] Bob Dobbs: you move a dollar at the speed of light,

[47:59] Bob Dobbs: it'll become inflationary.

[48:02] Bob Dobbs: And that's a monster,

[48:04] Bob Dobbs: right?

[48:04] Bob Dobbs: Yep.

[48:04] Bob Dobbs: Absolutely.

[48:06] Bob Dobbs: So that's his practical application of E equals MC squared.

[48:10] Bob Dobbs: Did you know that?

[48:12] Cameron McEwen: What he was constantly trying to do was interest people in focusing on what was going on.

[48:26] Cameron McEwen: And he...

[48:27] Cameron McEwen: The poor man,

[48:30] Cameron McEwen: let's say from the middle

[48:33] Cameron McEwen: 50s until he died,

[48:34] Cameron McEwen: so 25 years,

[48:38] Cameron McEwen: he just tried this way and that way and this other way to try to get people to focus.

[48:46] Cameron McEwen: And not only did it not happen in his lifetime,

[48:49] Cameron McEwen: it hasn't happened since.

[48:51] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[48:54] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[48:54] Bob Dobbs: what...

[48:56] Bob Dobbs: So,

[48:56] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[48:57] Bob Dobbs: first of all,

[48:58] Bob Dobbs: did you ever see and take a day of him talk about equals MC squared in that way?

[49:02] Bob Dobbs: Moving?

[49:02] Bob Dobbs: No.

[49:04] Bob Dobbs: I think it may be more said in his op-ed in 74 for the New York Times,

[49:12] Bob Dobbs: media inflation,

[49:13] Bob Dobbs: a media approach to inflation.

[49:15] Bob Dobbs: That's where he talks about the dollar inflating.

[49:18] Bob Dobbs: But you can go back and take today and it's in there if you do a close read.

[49:23] Bob Dobbs: And he and Barry suck it in there,

[49:24] Bob Dobbs: that point.

[49:25] Bob Dobbs: but it's really not really spelled out until

[49:28] Bob Dobbs: 74. So anyways,

[49:32] Bob Dobbs: that image of McLuhan,

[49:34] Bob Dobbs: it's a very strong image in this documentary.

[49:36] Bob Dobbs: The telescope was a...

[49:38] Bob Dobbs: afternoon show,

[49:41] Bob Dobbs: probably once a week,

[49:42] Bob Dobbs: by a guy named Fletcher Markle.

[49:44] Bob Dobbs: And he would feature prominent Canadians in that.

[49:48] Bob Dobbs: So they did a really great half hour on McLuhan.

[49:51] Bob Dobbs: And a lot of neat statements by McLuhan in that documentary.

[49:55] Bob Dobbs: But the scene always stuck to me.

[49:57] Bob Dobbs: He's sitting there,

[49:58] Bob Dobbs: and he's sort of leaning into the table towards the camera with the Go-Go Girls.

[50:04] Bob Dobbs: And he's trying to comment,

[50:05] Bob Dobbs: and he says,

[50:05] Bob Dobbs: are they going to turn that down?

[50:07] Bob Dobbs: But...

[50:07] Bob Dobbs: That is exactly McLuhan from 55 on.

[50:11] Bob Dobbs: The world is becoming noisier and McLuhan is being reasonably polite and just trying to get people to listen,

[50:19] Bob Dobbs: but the world is a disco.

[50:21] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?

[50:23] Bob Dobbs: Sure.

[50:24] Bob Dobbs: And that's the image of what you're saying.

[50:26] Bob Dobbs: He's there talking quietly and politely in a disco and nobody really cares what he's saying,

[50:34] Bob Dobbs: but he's describing what's going on there.

[50:36] Bob Dobbs: in the disco and what the implications Wright now it's interesting uh some people would say well his faith you know helped him rise above the disappointment of this and that what do you think a and

[50:53] Bob Dobbs: marshawn's biography says he got depressed in the 70s i didn't find him that way uh in the

[51:00] Bob Dobbs: 70s and carpenter's essay in Thank you.

[51:04] Bob Dobbs: about McLuhan in the 50s and how fantastic and energized he was.

[51:09] Bob Dobbs: I didn't experience that energized guy in the early

[51:12] Bob Dobbs: 50s that Carpenter did in the late 40s.

[51:15] Bob Dobbs: But to me,

[51:15] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan had more energy than most people in his conversations.

[51:20] Bob Dobbs: It really died.

[51:22] Cameron McEwen: You didn't know McLuhan until the 70s,

[51:24] Cameron McEwen: right?

[51:25] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[51:25] Bob Dobbs: no,

[51:25] Bob Dobbs: no.

[51:26] Bob Dobbs: I met McLuhan in the early 60s.

[51:28] Cameron McEwen: I never heard about that.

[51:34] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[51:34] Bob Dobbs: you have to read my diaries.

[51:36] Bob Dobbs: You never read my diaries,

[51:37] Bob Dobbs: did you?

[51:37] Cameron McEwen: I don't know if I did or not.

[51:41] Bob Dobbs: I was assigned by,

[51:42] Bob Dobbs: remember,

[51:43] Bob Dobbs: I was in intelligence,

[51:44] Bob Dobbs: and they were freaked that he was explaining the mediums of message.

[51:48] Bob Dobbs: That was the secret of the elites around the world in the intelligence agencies,

[51:53] Bob Dobbs: especially the older people coming out of the 19th century.

[51:59] Bob Dobbs: They let the 20th century just be noisy and everybody run around and...

[52:03] Bob Dobbs: and try their political revolutions.

[52:05] Bob Dobbs: They knew it wouldn't work.

[52:06] Bob Dobbs: They knew that the media ruled.

[52:09] Bob Dobbs: And when he started getting known in the

[52:12] Bob Dobbs: 50s, Wright about this in one of my essays,

[52:15] Bob Dobbs: I was told to go find out who was this ridiculous professor that was saying this stuff that was real.

[52:22] Bob Dobbs: And when I met McLuhan,

[52:24] Bob Dobbs: I found out eventually he got it from Wyndham Lewis.

[52:29] Bob Dobbs: And then

[52:30] Bob Dobbs: I started to drop in and see him.

[52:33] Bob Dobbs: And as the world was changing,

[52:38] Bob Dobbs: as you go in the late 50s into the

[52:39] Bob Dobbs: 60s,

[52:41] Bob Dobbs: I knew that what I was doing wasn't really relevant anymore.

[52:44] Bob Dobbs: My father told me a lot about this.

[52:47] Bob Dobbs: He worked in the intelligence agency,

[52:49] Bob Dobbs: and he told me,

[52:51] Bob Dobbs: you might want to get out of this.

[52:52] Bob Dobbs: This is not working.

[52:54] Bob Dobbs: And it's exactly what McLuhan said in Take Today.

[52:58] Bob Dobbs: The spy versus spy world was...

[53:00] Bob Dobbs: becoming just a world of entertainment and irrelevant.

[53:03] Bob Dobbs: And he has these quotes on the back on the book sleeve of Take Today,

[53:08] Bob Dobbs: which you've probably read,

[53:09] Bob Dobbs: right?

[53:10] Bob Dobbs: They're very important,

[53:10] Bob Dobbs: what he says about the traditional flatfoot world and how obsolete it is.

[53:16] Bob Dobbs: And I was noticing this.

[53:19] Cameron McEwen: I noticed that Spy vs.

[53:22] Cameron McEwen: Spy was a kind of cartoon featured in Mad magazine.

[53:26] Cameron McEwen: Yes,

[53:28] Bob Dobbs: that's what I'm quoting.

[53:29] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[53:30] Bob Dobbs: And so in the

[53:33] Bob Dobbs: 60s, I started paying closer attention to McLuhan,

[53:36] Bob Dobbs: like not as an assignment,

[53:38] Bob Dobbs: but what he was actually saying.

[53:39] Bob Dobbs: And he won me over.

[53:41] Bob Dobbs: I realized what he was realizing,

[53:44] Bob Dobbs: whatever degree it was.

[53:47] Bob Dobbs: And I made moves to get out of intelligence.

[53:49] Bob Dobbs: It took me a long time,

[53:51] Bob Dobbs: but eventually did.

[53:56] Bob Dobbs: And I would talk to him.

[53:57] Bob Dobbs: I remember I told you last week I talked to McLuhan about this stuff.

[54:02] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[54:02] Cameron McEwen: yeah,

[54:02] Cameron McEwen: but that was in the 70s.

[54:04] Bob Dobbs: No,

[54:04] Bob Dobbs: that's the

[54:05] Bob Dobbs: 60s, the late 60s.

[54:08] Bob Dobbs: I didn't start coming to McLuhan regularly until 72,

[54:11] Bob Dobbs: and I pretty well came to every

[54:14] Bob Dobbs: Monday night seminar.

[54:17] Bob Dobbs: But I was visiting in the

[54:19] Bob Dobbs: 60s.

[54:21] Bob Dobbs: Listening to him more,

[54:23] Bob Dobbs: not coming and telling him what was going on as if I knew something,

[54:26] Bob Dobbs: you know what I mean?

[54:27] Bob Dobbs: I thought I knew something.

[54:28] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[54:28] Cameron McEwen: but when,

[54:29] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[54:30] Cameron McEwen: it may be that there were different times that you talked to McLuhan,

[54:33] Cameron McEwen: but when we were discussing this before,

[54:38] Cameron McEwen: you were saying,

[54:41] Cameron McEwen: I asked you if you had to make an appointment.

[54:44] Cameron McEwen: to see him,

[54:45] Cameron McEwen: and you said,

[54:45] Cameron McEwen: yeah,

[54:46] Cameron McEwen: you would do that through Marge Stewart.

[54:48] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[54:49] Cameron McEwen: And

[54:50] Cameron McEwen: I don't think that she was organizing his life in the

[54:56] Bob Dobbs: 1960s. Oh,

[54:57] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[54:57] Bob Dobbs: she started in 63.

[55:02] Bob Dobbs: She got the job as soon as he got the center,

[55:05] Bob Dobbs: whenever that was.

[55:06] Cameron McEwen: So that's before the coach house.

[55:10] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[55:11] Bob Dobbs: that's right.

[55:11] Bob Dobbs: The coach house doesn't happen until 68.

[55:13] Cameron McEwen: The coach house.

[55:14] Bob Dobbs: Beg your pardon?

[55:14] Cameron McEwen: It's five years before the...

[55:17] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[55:18] Bob Dobbs: I would go to St.

[55:19] Bob Dobbs: Joseph's.

[55:20] Bob Dobbs: I would go to that.

[55:22] Bob Dobbs: Often,

[55:22] Bob Dobbs: if he spoke somewhere,

[55:25] Bob Dobbs: I would go to that if I was in town.

[55:27] Bob Dobbs: And then I would speak.

[55:28] Bob Dobbs: In the Malinowski,

[55:30] Bob Dobbs: early 60s,

[55:30] Bob Dobbs: I would talk more after the lecture.

[55:36] Bob Dobbs: I'd follow him somewhere.

[55:38] Bob Dobbs: He might go have a coffee,

[55:40] Bob Dobbs: and I would sit in with them,

[55:41] Bob Dobbs: with these other guys.

[55:43] Bob Dobbs: that were doing serious seminars.

[55:47] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[55:47] Bob Dobbs: the coach house was a serious seminar operation in the Malinowski.

[55:53] Bob Dobbs: Did you know that?

[55:55] Bob Dobbs: They would have guest lecturers and present stuff.

[55:57] Bob Dobbs: And I've got a lot of the papers of that period that were presented.

[56:01] Cameron McEwen: You're calling that the coach house.

[56:02] Cameron McEwen: That's Perot.

[56:03] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[56:05] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[56:05] Bob Dobbs: you're right.

[56:06] Bob Dobbs: It's in St.

[56:08] Bob Dobbs: Joseph.

[56:09] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[56:09] Bob Dobbs: I shouldn't be calling it the coach house.

[56:12] Bob Dobbs: But it was in his office,

[56:16] Bob Dobbs: a very small group.

[56:18] Bob Dobbs: And

[56:19] Bob Dobbs: I think there might have been some places in Carr Hall that he would meet when it got bigger.

[56:26] Bob Dobbs: But remember,

[56:27] Bob Dobbs: he's not a big phenomenon until 67,

[56:30] Bob Dobbs: 68.

[56:31] Bob Dobbs: That's when all the students are crowding in.

[56:35] Bob Dobbs: And that's at Fordham.

[56:37] Bob Dobbs: And then he comes back,

[56:38] Bob Dobbs: and he's got the coach house from the fall of 68.

[56:41] Bob Dobbs: That's...

[56:42] Bob Dobbs: That's the coach house,

[56:43] Bob Dobbs: that's the crowded thing,

[56:45] Bob Dobbs: and it's crowded until about

[56:48] Bob Dobbs: 75,

[56:50] Bob Dobbs: I'd say.

[56:52] Bob Dobbs: And,

[56:53] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[56:53] Bob Dobbs: I didn't start going to the regular until 72,

[56:55] Bob Dobbs: but it turned out I was probably attending the most because they were formal in the 60s,

[57:02] Bob Dobbs: and Barry Nevitt would go to those,

[57:05] Bob Dobbs: and

[57:06] Bob Dobbs: I got reports.

[57:09] Bob Dobbs: They'd write up reports about each thing.

[57:12] Bob Dobbs: presentation.

[57:14] Bob Dobbs: Have you ever seen it?

[57:16] Cameron McEwen: I don't think Barry was there in the early

[57:19] Bob Dobbs: 60s. No,

[57:20] Bob Dobbs: he showed up

[57:22] Bob Dobbs: No, I know exactly when Barry showed up.

[57:23] Bob Dobbs: He got Understanding Media from his wife at Christmas 64.

[57:28] Bob Dobbs: So he showed up in January 65.

[57:31] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[57:31] Cameron McEwen: I was going to say it was probably 65.

[57:34] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[57:34] Bob Dobbs: and then he then becomes an insider by 68.

[57:41] Bob Dobbs: And Ralph Baldwin and

[57:42] Bob Dobbs: drops the

[57:43] Bob Dobbs: Future of Management project.

[57:45] Bob Dobbs: That was him and McLuhan in 66 and 68.

[57:49] Bob Dobbs: And Barry replaces Baldwin in 68,

[57:51] Bob Dobbs: and they work on Take Today for four years,

[57:55] Bob Dobbs: and it was probably called

[57:57] Bob Dobbs: Future of Management or something,

[57:59] Bob Dobbs: even in the late 60s,

[58:00] Bob Dobbs: early 70s.

[58:02] Bob Dobbs: Remember,

[58:03] Bob Dobbs: in the Life magazine,

[58:04] Bob Dobbs: February 66,

[58:05] Bob Dobbs: they list the books he's working on,

[58:08] Bob Dobbs: and one of the titles is Future of Management and...

[58:11] Bob Dobbs: I think another one's Cliché to archetype.

[58:12] Bob Dobbs: Do you remember that article?

[58:15] Cameron McEwen: No,

[58:16] Cameron McEwen: but what you're saying seems true.

[58:19] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[58:20] Bob Dobbs: it lists several books.

[58:22] Bob Dobbs: And,

[58:23] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[58:23] Bob Dobbs: Cliché to archetype,

[58:24] Bob Dobbs: they started working on that.

[58:25] Bob Dobbs: He and Watson in 62,

[58:27] Bob Dobbs: 63.

[58:27] Bob Dobbs: That took a long time.

[58:31] Bob Dobbs: But the...

[58:31] Bob Dobbs: I'll have to go look up my reports,

[58:38] Bob Dobbs: see what I've got here.

[58:41] Bob Dobbs: You see,

[58:44] Bob Dobbs: when Derek took over in

[58:48] Bob Dobbs: 83,

[58:49] Bob Dobbs: David Olson was the director and Derek was the assistant director.

[58:55] Bob Dobbs: And the coach finally was accepted by the University of Toronto again.

[59:01] Bob Dobbs: And that starts in early 83.

[59:04] Bob Dobbs: So there was a two-year period,

[59:06] Bob Dobbs: 81 to 83.

[59:08] Bob Dobbs: where Eric and Derek and Logan would organize meetings as much as possible at different places around the campus that they would get permission to be in.

[59:17] Bob Dobbs: So it was a mobile thing for a couple of years.

[59:21] Bob Dobbs: But when Derek got the official position,

[59:25] Bob Dobbs: he started,

[59:28] Bob Dobbs: I guess he,

[59:30] Bob Dobbs: David Olson would bring in official people and there would be papers written up from

[59:36] Bob Dobbs: Olson's.

[59:37] Bob Dobbs: series,

[59:38] Bob Dobbs: and I have copies of those.

[59:40] Bob Dobbs: But Derek did...

[59:42] Bob Dobbs: in between or he did another day or something and i would go to them and they weren't attended by many people but derrick ran them and i have copies of his one pager kind of summaries of that and so he was second in command for from 83 till about 86 then olsen quit and

[1:00:03] Bob Dobbs: he took over and then derrick started flying all over the world it was more of a global outreach and um

[1:00:12] Bob Dobbs: Now we,

[1:00:13] Bob Dobbs: me and Nelson and Barry Nevitt,

[1:00:15] Bob Dobbs: started the McLuhan Monday Night Seminars,

[1:00:18] Bob Dobbs: the informal one,

[1:00:20] Bob Dobbs: and Derek called us McLuhan Fanfare,

[1:00:23] Bob Dobbs: and we did that 83 into 84 for about a year.

[1:00:29] Bob Dobbs: And then that faded out,

[1:00:30] Bob Dobbs: Nelson got alienated and left,

[1:00:33] Bob Dobbs: and

[1:00:33] Bob Dobbs: Barry was around,

[1:00:35] Bob Dobbs: but he didn't have any allies to...

[1:00:41] Bob Dobbs: to feature him we would feature barry every week and me and nelson and so then derrick just taught courses i would say in 85 86 87 so then i got on the radio in 87 so i stopped going to the coach house i

[1:00:59] Bob Dobbs: had moved it out into the air i was on the air spreading the word the gospel and thought i was doing way better than whatever derrick was doing you know what i mean Thank you.

[1:01:13] Cameron McEwen: How did your radio stint end?

[1:01:16] Bob Dobbs: I went four years,

[1:01:17] Bob Dobbs: well,

[1:01:18] Bob Dobbs: I got this younger guy,

[1:01:19] Bob Dobbs: Bob Marshall,

[1:01:20] Bob Dobbs: to do the journalistic stuff from 84 to 87.

[1:01:24] Bob Dobbs: And that was Mae Brussell,

[1:01:28] Bob Dobbs: Sherman Skolnick,

[1:01:30] Bob Dobbs: LaRouche people called Executive Intelligence Review,

[1:01:32] Bob Dobbs: and Dr.

[1:01:33] Bob Dobbs: Beder and Walter Bowert.

[1:01:35] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:01:36] Bob Dobbs: I got

[1:01:37] Bob Dobbs: Bob to summarize their weekly tapes and their information.

[1:01:41] Bob Dobbs: And we presented after three years.

[1:01:44] Bob Dobbs: I was behind the scenes.

[1:01:45] Bob Dobbs: And then

[1:01:48] Bob Dobbs: Bob Marshall played a Dr.

[1:01:50] Bob Dobbs: Beater tape.

[1:01:52] Bob Dobbs: And Adam Vaughn,

[1:01:55] Bob Dobbs: he objected.

[1:01:57] Bob Dobbs: You don't know the Toronto scene,

[1:01:58] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:01:58] Bob Dobbs: You don't know who Colin Vaughn is.

[1:02:00] Cameron McEwen: No.

[1:02:01] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:02:01] Bob Dobbs: you didn't live there.

[1:02:02] Bob Dobbs: So Adam Vaughn,

[1:02:03] Bob Dobbs: his father was a major media commentator at City TV.

[1:02:08] Bob Dobbs: the uh the

[1:02:11] Bob Dobbs: 60s,

[1:02:11] Bob Dobbs: 70s,

[1:02:11] Bob Dobbs: and 80s.

[1:02:12] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:02:13] Bob Dobbs: or let's say 70s and 80s.

[1:02:14] Bob Dobbs: So in the 80s,

[1:02:15] Bob Dobbs: Adam,

[1:02:16] Bob Dobbs: he got intrigued by our information,

[1:02:20] Bob Dobbs: Bob Marshall's show,

[1:02:21] Bob Dobbs: which was called The International Connection.

[1:02:23] Bob Dobbs: So he came down to meet

[1:02:24] Bob Dobbs: Bob Marshall.

[1:02:25] Bob Dobbs: He didn't know about me.

[1:02:28] Bob Dobbs: And then he became station manager because he had a bit of clout through his father.

[1:02:32] Bob Dobbs: So the students at Ryerson wanted to,

[1:02:36] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:02:36] Bob Dobbs: be connected to him.

[1:02:37] Bob Dobbs: So they made him station manager really fast.

[1:02:40] Bob Dobbs: in 85 and then he did he wanted to be connected to bob marshall so he did a saturday show with bob marshall and nelson and uh in 87 uh we were going to do uh i got him interested into mclean because

[1:02:57] Bob Dobbs: he mclean uh his father and he grew up on the edge of Wychwood Park so mclean was a friend of colin vaughn his father so adam as a kid

[1:03:09] Bob Dobbs: grew up with McLuhan in his house.

[1:03:12] Bob Dobbs: He didn't have much of an understanding of him,

[1:03:14] Bob Dobbs: but by the time he's at CKLN,

[1:03:18] Bob Dobbs: I would...

[1:03:19] Bob Dobbs: And Nelson,

[1:03:20] Bob Dobbs: and Bob Marshall taught about McLuhan,

[1:03:21] Bob Dobbs: and I might be around.

[1:03:23] Bob Dobbs: And so he eventually asked Nelson to present the McLuhan archives,

[1:03:31] Bob Dobbs: and they'd make a special series.

[1:03:33] Bob Dobbs: And they started it in 86,

[1:03:36] Bob Dobbs: and

[1:03:37] Bob Dobbs: Adam...

[1:03:38] Bob Dobbs: Got mad at Dave Newfeld,

[1:03:41] Bob Dobbs: who later went on to make Bob's Mediacology,

[1:03:43] Bob Dobbs: those two albums for Nelson.

[1:03:47] Bob Dobbs: Dave was the news director,

[1:03:49] Bob Dobbs: and

[1:03:51] Bob Dobbs: Adam got pissed off at him and fired him a week before the volts,

[1:03:56] Bob Dobbs: the Watson or whatever were going to go up.

[1:03:59] Bob Dobbs: And it was going to be a larger audience.

[1:04:04] Bob Dobbs: It would be broadcast further out of Ryerson and across the city.

[1:04:08] Cameron McEwen: And was the station owned by Ryerson?

[1:04:12] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:04:12] Bob Dobbs: it was a station for the students to use and learn.

[1:04:16] Bob Dobbs: But some of these students took it over,

[1:04:19] Bob Dobbs: and when they graduated,

[1:04:21] Bob Dobbs: they stayed there.

[1:04:22] Bob Dobbs: And they started making little mini careers at CKLN,

[1:04:26] Bob Dobbs: and the students really weren't.

[1:04:29] Bob Dobbs: interested in it or didn't use it much.

[1:04:31] Bob Dobbs: So it became a clique.

[1:04:33] Bob Dobbs: And some of those guys,

[1:04:35] Bob Dobbs: they would do that to get attention,

[1:04:37] Bob Dobbs: and then they'd get hired at CBC.

[1:04:41] Bob Dobbs: And

[1:04:42] Bob Dobbs: Ralph Benmergui and Anton Leo and John Jones came out of that scene.

[1:04:47] Bob Dobbs: That's when we were there in 84,

[1:04:48] Bob Dobbs: 85,

[1:04:48] Bob Dobbs: 86,

[1:04:49] Bob Dobbs: when we first were there.

[1:04:51] Bob Dobbs: And remember Ralph Benmergui had a Peter Noam Chomsky show on

[1:04:56] Bob Dobbs: Friday night or something.

[1:04:57] Bob Dobbs: Do you remember that?

[1:04:59] Bob Dobbs: He had a...

[1:05:00] Bob Dobbs: Anyways,

[1:05:01] Bob Dobbs: it didn't do well.

[1:05:02] Bob Dobbs: It didn't last long.

[1:05:03] Bob Dobbs: But anyways,

[1:05:04] Bob Dobbs: these characters were around Adam Vaughn.

[1:05:07] Bob Dobbs: So they got mad at Bob Marshall and fired him in May 87.

[1:05:11] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:05:12] Bob Dobbs: they fired Dave Newfeld in July 86.

[1:05:17] Bob Dobbs: And he'd been working for two years.

[1:05:19] Bob Dobbs: He was a student at Ryerson.

[1:05:21] Bob Dobbs: But then he graduated and he spent a lot of time being the news director.

[1:05:24] Bob Dobbs: And he put a lot of effort into building it up,

[1:05:26] Bob Dobbs: the news department.

[1:05:27] Bob Dobbs: for the big increased broadcasting range.

[1:05:32] Bob Dobbs: And they fired him the week before the big increase of wattage,

[1:05:37] Bob Dobbs: or I guess you'd call it,

[1:05:37] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[1:05:38] Bob Dobbs: Watson.

[1:05:38] Bob Dobbs: And they put this jerk in,

[1:05:42] Bob Dobbs: Martin Stott,

[1:05:43] Bob Dobbs: I think.

[1:05:43] Bob Dobbs: He was just a guy who'd been hanging around for a month or two.

[1:05:47] Bob Dobbs: And they made him news director,

[1:05:48] Bob Dobbs: and he lasted about three weeks.

[1:05:50] Bob Dobbs: He was so bad.

[1:05:53] Bob Dobbs: And then,

[1:05:54] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[1:05:55] Bob Dobbs: that's 86.

[1:05:57] Bob Dobbs: Because Bob Marshall was a friend of Dave Newfeld,

[1:06:00] Bob Dobbs: Adam was suspicious of,

[1:06:02] Bob Dobbs: when they stopped doing the Saturday show,

[1:06:04] Bob Dobbs: he was suspicious of Bob Marshall.

[1:06:06] Bob Dobbs: And so in May 87,

[1:06:12] Bob Dobbs: he was resigning in

[1:06:14] Bob Dobbs: June 87,

[1:06:15] Bob Dobbs: and in May 87,

[1:06:17] Bob Dobbs: he fired Bob Marshall,

[1:06:18] Bob Dobbs: and that was the end of that.

[1:06:20] Bob Dobbs: And then Mike Dyer,

[1:06:22] Bob Dobbs: who was a popular DJ on the station,

[1:06:25] Bob Dobbs: and wasn't the...

[1:06:26] Bob Dobbs: student.

[1:06:26] Bob Dobbs: He never came out of Ryerson.

[1:06:27] Bob Dobbs: By that time,

[1:06:28] Bob Dobbs: people would just come in from the world and get a gig,

[1:06:32] Bob Dobbs: play music or something,

[1:06:34] Bob Dobbs: or some specialized music.

[1:06:36] Bob Dobbs: And so

[1:06:37] Bob Dobbs: Mike Dyer asked Bob Marshall if he could play Mae Brussell tapes.

[1:06:42] Bob Dobbs: Bob Marshall would just do

[1:06:44] Bob Dobbs: Tyrwhitt summaries of the weekly tapes,

[1:06:46] Bob Dobbs: but the tapes were an hour long.

[1:06:48] Bob Dobbs: So Friday night,

[1:06:49] Bob Dobbs: Mike Dyer made Mae Brussell famous in Toronto by playing the whole hour-long broadcast.

[1:06:54] Bob Dobbs: And they were really amazing broadcasts.

[1:06:58] Cameron McEwen: Didn't Dyer have something to do with McLuhan?

[1:07:01] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:07:02] Bob Dobbs: nothing.

[1:07:03] Bob Dobbs: Nothing at all.

[1:07:03] Cameron McEwen: He had no interest.

[1:07:06] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:07:06] Bob Dobbs: Mike was more in the music world.

[1:07:09] Bob Dobbs: He promoted a couple of jazz concerts and things.

[1:07:13] Bob Dobbs: And he became a sound man,

[1:07:18] Bob Dobbs: studio man for the TV show about kids.

[1:07:24] Bob Dobbs: Degrassi High.

[1:07:25] Bob Dobbs: Did you ever hear of that show?

[1:07:26] Bob Dobbs: No.

[1:07:28] Bob Dobbs: He got involved with TV.

[1:07:30] Bob Dobbs: His wife went on,

[1:07:31] Bob Dobbs: later his wife went on to be a DJ on

[1:07:35] Bob Dobbs: CBC when it became two things,

[1:07:38] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:07:38] Bob Dobbs: CBC One,

[1:07:39] Bob Dobbs: CBC Two.

[1:07:41] Bob Dobbs: Remember that?

[1:07:42] Bob Dobbs: No.

[1:07:42] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:07:43] Bob Dobbs: he probably didn't.

[1:07:44] Bob Dobbs: And anyway,

[1:07:45] Bob Dobbs: she was a world music person.

[1:07:48] Bob Dobbs: So they were in the media of Toronto.

[1:07:51] Bob Dobbs: So he played Mae Brussell,

[1:07:53] Bob Dobbs: and that was fantastic.

[1:07:55] Bob Dobbs: And he still didn't know me hardly at all.

[1:07:58] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:07:59] Bob Dobbs: I went to the meeting in June 87 when Adam introduced the new stage manager,

[1:08:06] Bob Dobbs: which was a lesbian from British Guiana,

[1:08:10] Bob Dobbs: I think,

[1:08:11] Bob Dobbs: a lefty,

[1:08:13] Bob Dobbs: involved with the NDP,

[1:08:14] Bob Dobbs: I think.

[1:08:15] Bob Dobbs: So he introduced her,

[1:08:17] Bob Dobbs: and that was the end of Adam.

[1:08:18] Bob Dobbs: He went off to City TV.

[1:08:21] Bob Dobbs: And

[1:08:22] Bob Dobbs: Mike Dyer approaches me after the show,

[1:08:27] Bob Dobbs: after the meeting,

[1:08:29] Bob Dobbs: because I wanted to see what was happening at the station,

[1:08:31] Bob Dobbs: because I still wanted to do stuff on the station,

[1:08:34] Bob Dobbs: but my in,

[1:08:35] Bob Dobbs: Bob Marshall,

[1:08:36] Bob Dobbs: was gone.

[1:08:37] Bob Dobbs: So I was trying to figure out,

[1:08:39] Bob Dobbs: how do I get on the radio myself,

[1:08:42] Bob Dobbs: is what I was thinking.

[1:08:44] Bob Dobbs: But out of the blue,

[1:08:45] Bob Dobbs: Mike Dyer,

[1:08:46] Bob Dobbs: and I would say it was only vague in my mind,

[1:08:49] Bob Dobbs: is

[1:08:49] Bob Dobbs: I didn't know if I could get connected.

[1:08:51] Bob Dobbs: But anyways,

[1:08:52] Bob Dobbs: Mike Dyer comes up to me and he says,

[1:08:53] Bob Dobbs: Have you ever heard of the Church of the SubGenius?

[1:08:56] Bob Dobbs: And I said,

[1:08:57] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:08:58] Bob Dobbs: I inspired that.

[1:08:59] Bob Dobbs: He says,

[1:09:00] Bob Dobbs: What?

[1:09:01] Bob Dobbs: And

[1:09:02] Bob Dobbs: I told him it was based on my father and all that stuff.

[1:09:06] Bob Dobbs: And

[1:09:08] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if you know the story,

[1:09:08] Bob Dobbs: but I'm not going to go into it too much.

[1:09:12] Bob Dobbs: So he said,

[1:09:13] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:09:13] Bob Dobbs: I'm playing their tapes,

[1:09:16] Bob Dobbs: their own radio tapes out of Dallas.

[1:09:19] Bob Dobbs: And on my weekly show,

[1:09:21] Bob Dobbs: could you come on and talk about what you're telling me?

[1:09:23] Bob Dobbs: And I said,

[1:09:24] Bob Dobbs: sure.

[1:09:24] Bob Dobbs: So I went on.

[1:09:26] Bob Dobbs: In June,

[1:09:27] Bob Dobbs: might have been like June 17th,

[1:09:28] Bob Dobbs: 1987,

[1:09:31] Bob Dobbs: and it was amazing what I said.

[1:09:33] Bob Dobbs: The first question was,

[1:09:36] Bob Dobbs: what are you,

[1:09:37] Bob Dobbs: who are you?

[1:09:38] Bob Dobbs: And I said,

[1:09:39] Bob Dobbs: I was here before the Logos,

[1:09:40] Bob Dobbs: and I'll be here after the Logos.

[1:09:42] Bob Dobbs: How's that for an opening statement?

[1:09:45] Bob Dobbs: That's pretty good,

[1:09:46] Bob Dobbs: eh?

[1:09:46] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:09:46] Cameron McEwen: sounds like you.

[1:09:51] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:09:52] Bob Dobbs: well,

[1:09:52] Bob Dobbs: I became,

[1:09:52] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[1:09:53] Bob Dobbs: I became later.

[1:09:54] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:09:54] Bob Dobbs: that's...

[1:09:55] Bob Dobbs: That was me,

[1:09:56] Bob Dobbs: but nobody knew that was me.

[1:09:58] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:10:01] Bob Dobbs: I should send you the link.

[1:10:02] Bob Dobbs: You should listen to my first interview.

[1:10:04] Bob Dobbs: It's pretty incredible what I say.

[1:10:06] Bob Dobbs: And he was shocked by all this.

[1:10:08] Bob Dobbs: And so he invited me back two weeks later.

[1:10:11] Bob Dobbs: And then management kind of liked it.

[1:10:14] Bob Dobbs: I remember we were coming up to something called the Harmonic Convergence in August.

[1:10:18] Bob Dobbs: You ever hear of that?

[1:10:19] Bob Dobbs: The Harmonic Convergence?

[1:10:21] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[1:10:22] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:10:23] Bob Dobbs: that was a new age thing.

[1:10:24] Bob Dobbs: and

[1:10:25] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:10:26] Bob Dobbs: I went on there in a harmonic conversion.

[1:10:30] Bob Dobbs: I called it Harmonic Bob Virgins.

[1:10:33] Bob Dobbs: And I talked about Elvis Presley and all this crazy stuff.

[1:10:37] Bob Dobbs: And the management came down and were looking through the studio window and laughing.

[1:10:41] Bob Dobbs: And they liked me.

[1:10:43] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:10:43] Bob Dobbs: I just continued every two weeks.

[1:10:46] Bob Dobbs: And we didn't know how long it would go.

[1:10:47] Bob Dobbs: And it ended up being for four years.

[1:10:52] Bob Dobbs: And everybody eventually thought it was my show,

[1:10:54] Bob Dobbs: and then magazine articles were written.

[1:10:56] Cameron McEwen: So the four years were the same show?

[1:11:00] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:11:01] Bob Dobbs: it was always Mike Dyer.

[1:11:02] Bob Dobbs: He was the host,

[1:11:03] Bob Dobbs: and he would do his own kind of music one Wednesday night,

[1:11:07] Bob Dobbs: and I'd come down the second Wednesday night,

[1:11:09] Bob Dobbs: and he'd do his on the next.

[1:11:11] Bob Dobbs: So I'd be on twice a month,

[1:11:13] Bob Dobbs: and that went for four years,

[1:11:14] Bob Dobbs: where he moved out of the city and got a farm kind of situation.

[1:11:20] Bob Dobbs: He left the TV show,

[1:11:22] Bob Dobbs: and so he couldn't come back into the city and do the show as much.

[1:11:27] Bob Dobbs: It was too far away.

[1:11:28] Bob Dobbs: So what happened,

[1:11:31] Bob Dobbs: there was another guy in the station who I'd become friends with.

[1:11:34] Bob Dobbs: So he had a show on a Thursday.

[1:11:36] Bob Dobbs: Mike was Wednesday,

[1:11:37] Bob Dobbs: midnight till 2 in the morning.

[1:11:40] Bob Dobbs: And we would take calls,

[1:11:43] Bob Dobbs: and no one else really did that,

[1:11:45] Bob Dobbs: on the air.

[1:11:46] Bob Dobbs: And so then

[1:11:49] Bob Dobbs: Wayne Morris...

[1:11:51] Bob Dobbs: I asked him,

[1:11:52] Bob Dobbs: I said,

[1:11:52] Bob Dobbs: I've got about four more shows I need to do.

[1:11:55] Bob Dobbs: What I was going to do was play a lot of my interactions with the

[1:11:59] Bob Dobbs: Evergreens, channeled by Michael Blake Read,

[1:12:02] Bob Dobbs: and play my conversations with,

[1:12:06] Bob Dobbs: let's see,

[1:12:06] Bob Dobbs: that's 91,

[1:12:08] Bob Dobbs: yes,

[1:12:09] Bob Dobbs: with McLuhan and

[1:12:11] Bob Dobbs: Frank Zappa.

[1:12:12] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:12:13] Bob Dobbs: not Zappa,

[1:12:13] Bob Dobbs: he wasn't dead yet,

[1:12:14] Bob Dobbs: but Mae Brussell,

[1:12:15] Bob Dobbs: she was dead.

[1:12:16] Bob Dobbs: A lot of people I was interviewing through the Carolyn.

[1:12:20] Bob Dobbs: And

[1:12:21] Bob Dobbs: I played a few with

[1:12:23] Bob Dobbs: Mike in 89,

[1:12:24] Bob Dobbs: 90,

[1:12:26] Bob Dobbs: but not that many.

[1:12:28] Bob Dobbs: But I decided I wanted to go out with a bang.

[1:12:30] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:12:31] Bob Dobbs: Wayne said he'd let me on for four more shows once a month.

[1:12:35] Bob Dobbs: So I did April,

[1:12:36] Bob Dobbs: May,

[1:12:37] Bob Dobbs: June,

[1:12:37] Bob Dobbs: July,

[1:12:38] Bob Dobbs: August.

[1:12:38] Bob Dobbs: I did five shows.

[1:12:39] Bob Dobbs: You can hear my archives.

[1:12:41] Bob Dobbs: And I played a lot of channel material.

[1:12:45] Bob Dobbs: And then that was it.

[1:12:47] Bob Dobbs: And so...

[1:12:50] Bob Dobbs: So I'm getting into the fall of 91,

[1:12:53] Bob Dobbs: and Carolyn is now doing MIR,

[1:12:55] Bob Dobbs: and we're getting ready to go to New York City at some point in 92 or 93.

[1:13:00] Bob Dobbs: And so

[1:13:02] Bob Dobbs: I took the time to create the book,

[1:13:05] Bob Dobbs: Phatic Communion,

[1:13:06] Bob Dobbs: which was supposed to be a souvenir from a ritual in progress,

[1:13:10] Bob Dobbs: quotes from LaRouche,

[1:13:11] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan,

[1:13:12] Bob Dobbs: Thompson,

[1:13:13] Bob Dobbs: William Irwin Thompson,

[1:13:14] Bob Dobbs: Arthur Kroker,

[1:13:16] Bob Dobbs: and stuff from my own show.

[1:13:19] Bob Dobbs: which were provided by Dave Newfeld,

[1:13:22] Bob Dobbs: because by that time he's making the album,

[1:13:24] Bob Dobbs: started in 1990,

[1:13:26] Bob Dobbs: Bob's Media Ecology,

[1:13:27] Bob Dobbs: and

[1:13:28] Bob Dobbs: Nelson gave me tapes of my show,

[1:13:31] Bob Dobbs: and Dave,

[1:13:31] Bob Dobbs: to get a handle on it,

[1:13:33] Bob Dobbs: he would have to transcribe them all.

[1:13:35] Bob Dobbs: So I took his transcriptions of my shows that Nelson had given him,

[1:13:40] Bob Dobbs: and I put that in the book as my part of the book.

[1:13:44] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:13:44] Bob Dobbs: Phatic Communion with Bob Dobbs was created while waiting.

[1:13:49] Bob Dobbs: for us to go to New York,

[1:13:52] Bob Dobbs: and I put together this book for people who were interested in what I created on CKLN,

[1:13:57] Bob Dobbs: so I stuck it in a few bookstores,

[1:13:59] Bob Dobbs: you know.

[1:14:00] Bob Dobbs: It was self-published.

[1:14:03] Bob Dobbs: So that's where that came from.

[1:14:04] Cameron McEwen: You gave me a copy in New York.

[1:14:07] Bob Dobbs: In 98,

[1:14:09] Bob Dobbs: with Mark.

[1:14:11] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:14:11] Bob Dobbs: Ah,

[1:14:12] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[1:14:12] Bob Dobbs: good.

[1:14:12] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:14:13] Bob Dobbs: I had them back then.

[1:14:14] Bob Dobbs: I haven't got many left now,

[1:14:16] Bob Dobbs: but...

[1:14:17] Bob Dobbs: Normally I just send out a digital

[1:14:20] Bob Dobbs: you know version of it it's all all the contents but um i wonder do you have it there what did Wright i used to write and it's sort of a special message to whoever i gave it to i don't know what i didn't really know you so i don't know what if i i don't know if i wrote anything do you remember do you have it there no i don't and i i

[1:14:42] Bob Dobbs: don't even know where the copy is at the moment i have to look for it okay yeah maybe if you come across it let's see if i wrote something to you

[1:14:52] Cameron McEwen: You didn't understand what I was talking about,

[1:14:55] Cameron McEwen: so I doubt that you did.

[1:14:57] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:14:58] Bob Dobbs: I wouldn't know how to categorize people.

[1:15:01] Bob Dobbs: You'd stand out in some way,

[1:15:03] Bob Dobbs: but I didn't know anything about you,

[1:15:04] Bob Dobbs: so I probably couldn't have.

[1:15:07] Bob Dobbs: And I didn't,

[1:15:08] Bob Dobbs: and it's sort of personal.

[1:15:09] Cameron McEwen: You didn't know the chemistry stuff.

[1:15:11] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:15:12] Bob Dobbs: no,

[1:15:12] Bob Dobbs: I didn't know what the hell you were talking about.

[1:15:13] Bob Dobbs: But the,

[1:15:17] Bob Dobbs: I would give it to friends.

[1:15:18] Bob Dobbs: And there'd be a certain relationship or aspect to it.

[1:15:22] Bob Dobbs: And I'd highlight it.

[1:15:23] Bob Dobbs: But we weren't friends.

[1:15:24] Bob Dobbs: I didn't know anything about you and just had you that one day at Mark's.

[1:15:29] Bob Dobbs: And you were a stranger,

[1:15:30] Bob Dobbs: though I knew George Sanderson.

[1:15:32] Bob Dobbs: And I knew about your project,

[1:15:35] Bob Dobbs: what you were going to do and digitize stuff.

[1:15:37] Bob Dobbs: That's what I learned when you were there that day.

[1:15:40] Bob Dobbs: But we're talking about me going to McLuhan Seminars.

[1:15:45] Bob Dobbs: That's where this came from.

[1:15:47] Bob Dobbs: And...

[1:15:52] Bob Dobbs: I stopped going to McLuhan seminars in 84 when we got on CKLN,

[1:15:59] Bob Dobbs: that Derek was running.

[1:16:01] Bob Dobbs: And I never went back until the late 90s,

[1:16:05] Bob Dobbs: I think.

[1:16:07] Bob Dobbs: I was staying at Michael Edmondson.

[1:16:09] Bob Dobbs: For some reason,

[1:16:11] Bob Dobbs: Derek had some special guest from the Philippines or something.

[1:16:14] Bob Dobbs: They'd won some award.

[1:16:18] Bob Dobbs: somebody around the McLuhan Center was giving out.

[1:16:20] Bob Dobbs: So we went to the seminar with this female journalist.

[1:16:24] Bob Dobbs: I think she was female.

[1:16:25] Bob Dobbs: And that's where I talked to Derek for the first time in

[1:16:29] Bob Dobbs: 15 years or something.

[1:16:31] Bob Dobbs: But what I did once,

[1:16:34] Bob Dobbs: I used to have private sessions with

[1:16:39] Bob Dobbs: Michael Blake Read nearby

[1:16:43] Bob Dobbs: Church Street,

[1:16:44] Bob Dobbs: which was nearby McLuhan coach house.

[1:16:48] Bob Dobbs: Church Street would go up to

[1:16:50] Bob Dobbs: Bloor.

[1:16:52] Bob Dobbs: And so in that hotel,

[1:16:54] Bob Dobbs: Michael would set up for a couple weeks and do private sessions.

[1:16:57] Bob Dobbs: So he'd make an appointment,

[1:16:58] Bob Dobbs: go there,

[1:16:58] Bob Dobbs: and it would be recorded.

[1:17:00] Bob Dobbs: So one time in 99 or so,

[1:17:05] Bob Dobbs: I had just talked to McLuhan for a good stretch of stuff.

[1:17:11] Bob Dobbs: And so I'm walking back.

[1:17:14] Bob Dobbs: to Michael Edmunds and I'm walking near the Coach House and I notice it's after hours but it's open.

[1:17:20] Bob Dobbs: So I go in the side door and there are students with high-tech stuff.

[1:17:26] Bob Dobbs: Derek emphasized technology more,

[1:17:30] Bob Dobbs: it seemed to me,

[1:17:31] Bob Dobbs: in a scene at the college,

[1:17:33] Bob Dobbs: at the Coach House.

[1:17:34] Bob Dobbs: So I walked in and there were these,

[1:17:36] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:17:37] Bob Dobbs: sense-making 20 or

[1:17:38] Bob Dobbs: 2-year-olds sitting there and

[1:17:42] Bob Dobbs: I might have said,

[1:17:44] Bob Dobbs: I was the archivist of Marsha McLuhan.

[1:17:47] Bob Dobbs: So I'm a ghost that just shows up at the side door.

[1:17:50] Bob Dobbs: And I held up the two cassettes and I said,

[1:17:53] Bob Dobbs: I just talked to Marsha McLuhan.

[1:17:55] Bob Dobbs: It's all on these recordings.

[1:17:57] Bob Dobbs: And then they looked at me,

[1:17:59] Bob Dobbs: puzzled,

[1:18:00] Bob Dobbs: didn't really say anything,

[1:18:02] Bob Dobbs: so I turned around and left.

[1:18:05] Bob Dobbs: So that was my little invasion of

[1:18:08] Bob Dobbs: Derek's scene.

[1:18:10] Bob Dobbs: And the stupid students,

[1:18:12] Bob Dobbs: they should have run out.

[1:18:12] Bob Dobbs: What?

[1:18:13] Bob Dobbs: If it was me,

[1:18:14] Bob Dobbs: I'd say,

[1:18:14] Bob Dobbs: what did you say?

[1:18:15] Bob Dobbs: You talked to McClure.

[1:18:16] Bob Dobbs: What are you talking about?

[1:18:17] Bob Dobbs: That would have taken an interest.

[1:18:19] Bob Dobbs: But they're so distracted by the digital technology,

[1:18:22] Bob Dobbs: they're beginning to become the stupid people we witness today,

[1:18:25] Bob Dobbs: the stupid generations who are digitized and super angels and don't know it.

[1:18:30] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?

[1:18:31] Bob Dobbs: They're gone.

[1:18:32] Bob Dobbs: They disappeared.

[1:18:36] Bob Dobbs: You follow me?

[1:18:37] Cameron McEwen: I don't know that it just happened since the 80s,

[1:18:42] Cameron McEwen: let's say.

[1:18:44] Bob Dobbs: You don't know what happened.

[1:18:48] Cameron McEwen: This num,

[1:18:49] Cameron McEwen: the num.

[1:18:52] Bob Dobbs: Just a minute,

[1:18:52] Bob Dobbs: I'm checking.

[1:18:54] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:18:54] Bob Dobbs: hello?

[1:18:54] Bob Dobbs: It's me.

[1:18:58] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:18:58] Bob Dobbs: it's still working.

[1:18:59] Bob Dobbs: I think we're still recording.

[1:19:00] Bob Dobbs: We're okay.

[1:19:02] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:19:03] Cameron McEwen: What were you saying about the 80s?

[1:19:04] Cameron McEwen: It's the same as last week.

[1:19:07] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:19:07] Cameron McEwen: It's you.

[1:19:08] Bob Dobbs: I got into gossip.

[1:19:09] Bob Dobbs: We have to be careful.

[1:19:10] Bob Dobbs: If somebody gets pissed off,

[1:19:12] Bob Dobbs: you'll disconnect if I get into these stories too much.

[1:19:15] Bob Dobbs: So what did you say about the 80s?

[1:19:18] Cameron McEwen: I'm saying,

[1:19:18] Cameron McEwen: well,

[1:19:19] Cameron McEwen: you were saying that...

[1:19:21] Cameron McEwen: The kids became super angels and basically got numb.

[1:19:26] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:19:26] Cameron McEwen: this is in 99,

[1:19:27] Bob Dobbs: once the Internet started.

[1:19:28] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:19:28] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[1:19:29] Cameron McEwen: but the numb goes away way back.

[1:19:35] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[1:19:36] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[1:19:37] Cameron McEwen: The history of it,

[1:19:39] Cameron McEwen: I don't really know,

[1:19:40] Cameron McEwen: but it would be interesting to try to figure out.

[1:19:46] Cameron McEwen: People got numbed when they had to leave.

[1:19:51] Cameron McEwen: the land,

[1:19:52] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:19:52] Cameron McEwen: Most people were living on farms even in North America in 1900 and then by 1930 there were more people in the cities than on the farms and by 1950 most people

[1:20:11] Cameron McEwen: by far lived in cities of one sort or another.

[1:20:16] Cameron McEwen: In that process people got

[1:20:20] Cameron McEwen: Stupid.

[1:20:21] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:20:22] Bob Dobbs: They got discarnate.

[1:20:23] Bob Dobbs: They went on welfare.

[1:20:27] Cameron McEwen: I don't know about welfare.

[1:20:29] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:20:29] Bob Dobbs: that's the

[1:20:30] Bob Dobbs: 30s. Money,

[1:20:31] Bob Dobbs: as McLuhan said,

[1:20:31] Bob Dobbs: became public property.

[1:20:34] Bob Dobbs: And you had to have,

[1:20:35] Bob Dobbs: nobody had access to land anymore,

[1:20:37] Bob Dobbs: so they needed to be fed,

[1:20:38] Bob Dobbs: so they had to have money.

[1:20:40] Bob Dobbs: A basic subsistence thing.

[1:20:42] Bob Dobbs: That comes in in the

[1:20:43] Bob Dobbs: 30s. Important point he makes.

[1:20:45] Bob Dobbs: Money becomes public property.

[1:20:50] Bob Dobbs: In North America,

[1:20:51] Bob Dobbs: anyways.

[1:20:52] Bob Dobbs: And he said that in an early

[1:20:56] Bob Dobbs: 70s interview for St.

[1:20:58] Bob Dobbs: Michael's student paper.

[1:20:59] Bob Dobbs: It's a good interview.

[1:21:02] Bob Dobbs: But anyway...

[1:21:03] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:21:04] Cameron McEwen: that theory,

[1:21:06] Cameron McEwen: you could say,

[1:21:07] Cameron McEwen: was social credit.

[1:21:09] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:21:09] Cameron McEwen: And social credit in Western Canada was a very powerful force.

[1:21:16] Cameron McEwen: I know,

[1:21:16] Bob Dobbs: the greatest Canadian,

[1:21:17] Bob Dobbs: Tommy Douglas.

[1:21:19] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:21:20] Cameron McEwen: that's...

[1:21:20] Cameron McEwen: That's the socialist.

[1:21:24] Cameron McEwen: That's CCF.

[1:21:24] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[1:21:25] Bob Dobbs: wasn't that social credit at some point?

[1:21:27] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:21:28] Cameron McEwen: no.

[1:21:28] Cameron McEwen: Social credit was

[1:21:31] Cameron McEwen: Aberhart in

[1:21:33] Cameron McEwen: Alberta and Bennett in B.C.

[1:21:36] Cameron McEwen: And basically the remnants of the social credit party ran

[1:21:44] Cameron McEwen: Alberta and B.C.

[1:21:46] Cameron McEwen: up until,

[1:21:48] Cameron McEwen: I don't know.

[1:21:48] Cameron McEwen: if it was the

[1:21:49] Cameron McEwen: 60s or the

[1:21:51] Cameron McEwen: 70s when they finally lost power.

[1:21:54] Cameron McEwen: But for decades,

[1:21:56] Cameron McEwen: social credit was the great power in both B.C.

[1:22:00] Cameron McEwen: and

[1:22:02] Bob Dobbs: Alberta. And Tommy Douglas was the great power in Saskatchewan with the CCP,

[1:22:07] Bob Dobbs: which became the NDP,

[1:22:09] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:22:10] Cameron McEwen: Right,

[1:22:10] Cameron McEwen: CCF.

[1:22:11] Bob Dobbs: CCF,

[1:22:12] Bob Dobbs: right.

[1:22:14] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:22:15] Cameron McEwen: and we lived just down the street.

[1:22:19] Cameron McEwen: from Tommy Douglas and his daughter went to the same elementary school as I did.

[1:22:25] Cameron McEwen: She was older than I was,

[1:22:26] Cameron McEwen: but people still talked about,

[1:22:30] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[1:22:31] Cameron McEwen: sort of what a beautiful girl she was.

[1:22:34] Cameron McEwen: She was everybody's idol.

[1:22:35] Bob Dobbs: You said you went to school with her in elementary?

[1:22:40] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:22:41] Cameron McEwen: I went to the same school,

[1:22:44] Cameron McEwen: but about...

[1:22:46] Cameron McEwen: She was maybe five or six years ahead of me.

[1:22:49] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:22:50] Cameron McEwen: So I was never at the school at the same time as her.

[1:22:54] Bob Dobbs: But your neighbor was Tommy Douglas.

[1:22:57] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:22:57] Cameron McEwen: they lived down,

[1:22:58] Cameron McEwen: well,

[1:22:58] Cameron McEwen: not exactly the neighbor,

[1:22:59] Cameron McEwen: but we lived on the same street about a block apart.

[1:23:03] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:23:03] Bob Dobbs: And this would be kind of a semi-suburb?

[1:23:09] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:23:09] Cameron McEwen: no.

[1:23:09] Cameron McEwen: This is close to downtown Regina.

[1:23:12] Cameron McEwen: Like McLuhan.

[1:23:14] Bob Dobbs: Like McLuhan.

[1:23:15] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:23:15] Cameron McEwen: a little bit.

[1:23:16] Bob Dobbs: In Winnipeg.

[1:23:17] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:23:18] Bob Dobbs: They weren't that big,

[1:23:19] Bob Dobbs: these places.

[1:23:21] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[1:23:23] Cameron McEwen: In those years,

[1:23:24] Cameron McEwen: the whole idea of suburbs was more or less foreign to Canada.

[1:23:30] Cameron McEwen: It had started in

[1:23:31] Cameron McEwen: Southern California.

[1:23:33] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:23:34] Cameron McEwen: But in those years,

[1:23:37] Cameron McEwen: people started the first suburbs,

[1:23:41] Cameron McEwen: and it was a big deal.

[1:23:45] Bob Dobbs: You mean in California or in Canada?

[1:23:48] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:23:49] Cameron McEwen: it started in California and then it got copied in Canada.

[1:23:53] Bob Dobbs: By the

[1:23:53] Bob Dobbs: 60s, say?

[1:23:55] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:23:56] Cameron McEwen: it started in the late 60s,

[1:23:58] Cameron McEwen: I would say.

[1:23:58] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:23:59] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:24:01] Bob Dobbs: Tommy Douglas,

[1:24:01] Bob Dobbs: for the listeners,

[1:24:03] Bob Dobbs: Canada ran a poll,

[1:24:05] Bob Dobbs: maybe around 2000,

[1:24:07] Bob Dobbs: about who was the greatest Canadian,

[1:24:09] Bob Dobbs: and Tommy Douglas...

[1:24:11] Bob Dobbs: Not that anybody remembered him much,

[1:24:13] Bob Dobbs: but for some reason he got voted the greatest Canadian,

[1:24:16] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:24:17] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:24:18] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:24:18] Cameron McEwen: because of the...

[1:24:20] Cameron McEwen: Canadian medical plan.

[1:24:23] Bob Dobbs: Right,

[1:24:23] Bob Dobbs: socialized medicine.

[1:24:25] Cameron McEwen: Right,

[1:24:26] Cameron McEwen: and everybody,

[1:24:29] Cameron McEwen: that's now,

[1:24:30] Cameron McEwen: I would say,

[1:24:31] Cameron McEwen: probably the most popular thing about Canada.

[1:24:35] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:24:35] Cameron McEwen: Especially compared to the United States.

[1:24:39] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:24:39] Cameron McEwen: But

[1:24:41] Cameron McEwen: I must say that it's a system that works very well in some respects,

[1:24:51] Bob Dobbs: but in other respects is very very bureaucratic no I know all about it from Carolyn you know she worked in a system in in Toronto for many years yeah but the so Tommy

[1:25:04] Bob Dobbs: Douglas yeah the archetype of canned is socialized medicine so he's the guy's given credit for starting it in our catch one right yeah he's also like because he was a fighter he was actually a boxer

[1:25:19] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[1:25:20] Bob Dobbs: yeah?

[1:25:20] Bob Dobbs: He seemed to be a skinny guy.

[1:25:21] Bob Dobbs: I remember him being skinny.

[1:25:23] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[1:25:24] Cameron McEwen: But he was a boxer.

[1:25:26] Cameron McEwen: I believe he was born in Scotland,

[1:25:30] Cameron McEwen: emigrated to Canada,

[1:25:33] Cameron McEwen: and

[1:25:34] Cameron McEwen: I believe went to school in Canada in Brandon,

[1:25:37] Cameron McEwen: I think,

[1:25:38] Cameron McEwen: and then worked his way up.

[1:25:40] Cameron McEwen: And he was always fighting against powers that nobody...

[1:25:47] Cameron McEwen: thought you could do anything about it.

[1:25:48] Bob Dobbs: He was like a David against Goliath.

[1:25:52] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[1:25:53] Cameron McEwen: And eventually became the premier of Saskatchewan and started a medical program in Saskatchewan that was very unpopular with doctors.

[1:26:06] Cameron McEwen: My dad was a doctor and a great number of doctors in Saskatchewan left.

[1:26:15] Cameron McEwen: when the program was instituted,

[1:26:16] Cameron McEwen: including my father.

[1:26:19] Bob Dobbs: And that's in 62?

[1:26:21] Bob Dobbs: In my mind,

[1:26:21] Bob Dobbs: it's like the early

[1:26:23] Bob Dobbs: 60s, right?

[1:26:27] Cameron McEwen: I would say it's a little bit later,

[1:26:29] Cameron McEwen: but you're right in the rough time period.

[1:26:35] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:26:36] Cameron McEwen: in the 60s.

[1:26:37] Cameron McEwen: My memory is that my dad moved from Regina to Calgary.

[1:26:42] Cameron McEwen: I was already in university,

[1:26:43] Cameron McEwen: so...

[1:26:44] Cameron McEwen: I wasn't involved in all this.

[1:26:46] Cameron McEwen: I was thousands of miles away.

[1:26:49] Cameron McEwen: It seems to me that they moved maybe in 64,

[1:26:56] Cameron McEwen: maybe in 63 even.

[1:26:57] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:26:59] Cameron McEwen: And so 62 may well have been the year that it was first instituted.

[1:27:04] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:27:06] Bob Dobbs: So you said Brandon.

[1:27:10] Bob Dobbs: Is that Brandon,

[1:27:11] Bob Dobbs: Manitoba?

[1:27:13] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[1:27:13] Bob Dobbs: That's where he grew up.

[1:27:15] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:27:15] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:27:16] Cameron McEwen: well,

[1:27:16] Cameron McEwen: I wouldn't say that.

[1:27:17] Cameron McEwen: He grew up in Scotland.

[1:27:19] Cameron McEwen: But

[1:27:22] Cameron McEwen: Brandon was a

[1:27:24] Cameron McEwen: Baptist college affiliated with

[1:27:27] Cameron McEwen: McMaster and with

[1:27:30] Cameron McEwen: Acadia in

[1:27:32] Cameron McEwen: Wolfville. Oh,

[1:27:33] Bob Dobbs: okay.

[1:27:33] Bob Dobbs: Wolfville,

[1:27:34] Bob Dobbs: Nova Scotia.

[1:27:35] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[1:27:36] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:27:36] Cameron McEwen: And these Baptist colleges were very influential in Canadian history.

[1:27:43] Cameron McEwen: People don't know much about them.

[1:27:45] Cameron McEwen: But they gave birth to a lot of independent thinkers.

[1:27:50] Cameron McEwen: They gave birth to a lot of political figures,

[1:27:52] Cameron McEwen: usually on the left.

[1:27:54] Cameron McEwen: And

[1:27:56] Cameron McEwen: Tom Easterbrook,

[1:27:58] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan great buddy,

[1:27:59] Cameron McEwen: before he taught at University of Toronto,

[1:28:02] Cameron McEwen: taught at Brandon.

[1:28:04] Cameron McEwen: And so there's lots of connections with not only Canadian history in general,

[1:28:10] Cameron McEwen: but with McLuhan in particular.

[1:28:13] Bob Dobbs: Right,

[1:28:14] Bob Dobbs: so he grows up in Scotland,

[1:28:16] Bob Dobbs: comes over,

[1:28:16] Bob Dobbs: and he ends up in Brandon,

[1:28:18] Bob Dobbs: Manitoba.

[1:28:20] Cameron McEwen: I believe.

[1:28:20] Cameron McEwen: Tommy Douglas.

[1:28:22] Cameron McEwen: I'm not 100%

[1:28:23] Cameron McEwen: sure about that,

[1:28:24] Cameron McEwen: but I believe that's where he went to college and then goes from

[1:28:28] Cameron McEwen: Brandon to

[1:28:31] Cameron McEwen: Weyburn in Saskatchewan,

[1:28:33] Cameron McEwen: which isn't that far from Brandon,

[1:28:35] Cameron McEwen: and eventually became the

[1:28:38] Cameron McEwen: MLA from

[1:28:40] Cameron McEwen: Weyburn, became the head of the...

[1:28:42] Cameron McEwen: CCF in

[1:28:44] Cameron McEwen: Saskatchewan and then became the Premier.

[1:28:46] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:28:47] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:28:48] Bob Dobbs: so did McClellan ever comment on Tommy Douglas?

[1:28:53] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:28:55] Cameron McEwen: no.

[1:28:56] Cameron McEwen: I'm sure he commented in places on the

[1:29:01] Cameron McEwen: CCF and it would take some looking.

[1:29:08] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan actually talked a lot about Canadian history in ways that aren't appreciated because nobody's bothered to do the research.

[1:29:18] Cameron McEwen: But you could go into his writings and his interviews and you would get an interesting overview of

[1:29:29] Cameron McEwen: Canadian history in the

[1:29:31] Cameron McEwen: 20th century.

[1:29:33] Bob Dobbs: Right,

[1:29:33] Bob Dobbs: and he did the Canadian character in different provinces.

[1:29:37] Bob Dobbs: or areas in Counterblast in 54.

[1:29:42] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[1:29:43] Cameron McEwen: And he did commentary on

[1:29:46] Cameron McEwen: Canadian artists,

[1:29:49] Cameron McEwen: on

[1:29:51] Cameron McEwen: Canadian poetry he wrote an essay on.

[1:29:55] Cameron McEwen: So all of these things are like little islands that are separated in a far-off archipelago.

[1:30:04] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:30:05] Cameron McEwen: But they could be put together at some point.

[1:30:07] Bob Dobbs: point.

[1:30:07] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:30:07] Bob Dobbs: good point.

[1:30:10] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:30:11] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[1:30:11] Bob Dobbs: so we finished the interview with the tech body.

[1:30:17] Bob Dobbs: Now we'll go back to the beginning and work our way through and I'll show how it leads into the creation of the tech body,

[1:30:26] Bob Dobbs: how McLuhan was anticipating it.

[1:30:31] Cameron McEwen: Sure.

[1:30:31] Cameron McEwen: What do you think of that?

[1:30:33] Cameron McEwen: Yes,

[1:30:34] Cameron McEwen: definitely we'll do that and at some point.

[1:30:37] Cameron McEwen: I think what you have to do is talk about Trump.

[1:30:40] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[1:30:40] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[1:30:41] Cameron McEwen: Because,

[1:30:42] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:30:42] Cameron McEwen: that's in the title of the brochure.

[1:30:46] Cameron McEwen: But more than that,

[1:30:49] Cameron McEwen: when we've been talking about Trump,

[1:30:51] Cameron McEwen: it's obvious that there are many different aspects of the man and of his presidency and of his election loss and all this sort of stuff,

[1:31:04] Cameron McEwen: which are complicated.

[1:31:06] Cameron McEwen: So what you didn't know about Trump initially must seem to people as,

[1:31:12] Cameron McEwen: number one,

[1:31:13] Cameron McEwen: something that's positive about Trump something that's not very ambiguous.

[1:31:21] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:31:22] Cameron McEwen: And the conversations we've had concerning the book,

[1:31:28] Cameron McEwen: I can see that that's not at all a picture that you're trying to give.

[1:31:33] Cameron McEwen: And so then it would be interesting.

[1:31:37] Cameron McEwen: to hear more about just Trump is figured here.

[1:31:46] Cameron McEwen: There's obviously many,

[1:31:47] Cameron McEwen: many voices and faces Trump that you're trying to point out.

[1:31:53] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:31:53] Bob Dobbs: now people,

[1:31:55] Bob Dobbs: they could say six months ago,

[1:31:58] Bob Dobbs: Bob fucked up.

[1:31:59] Bob Dobbs: He wrote about Trump,

[1:31:59] Bob Dobbs: thought he was significant,

[1:32:00] Bob Dobbs: thought he'd win again,

[1:32:02] Bob Dobbs: and he's a nobody.

[1:32:04] Bob Dobbs: But no,

[1:32:04] Bob Dobbs: Trump back.

[1:32:06] Bob Dobbs: And it's a very complicated scene right now.

[1:32:09] Bob Dobbs: Trump just saying he's fucking president,

[1:32:11] Bob Dobbs: for fuck's sake.

[1:32:13] Bob Dobbs: This is nuts in American history to be talking the way he is.

[1:32:17] Bob Dobbs: But you watch as the court cases go through.

[1:32:21] Bob Dobbs: It ain't over.

[1:32:24] Cameron McEwen: It's also true,

[1:32:25] Cameron McEwen: Bob,

[1:32:25] Cameron McEwen: that this man had very great power as the president.

[1:32:32] Cameron McEwen: and a

[1:32:35] Cameron McEwen: Significant number of the problems that he encountered and that he's had subsequent to his presidency,

[1:32:47] Cameron McEwen: he could have done something about,

[1:32:49] Cameron McEwen: but he didn't know what he was doing.

[1:32:51] Cameron McEwen: He didn't know enough about the levers of power to actually exercise power and to retain power.

[1:33:00] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:33:00] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:33:01] Bob Dobbs: we'll see.

[1:33:02] Bob Dobbs: I have other things.

[1:33:02] Bob Dobbs: It's more complicated than that.

[1:33:05] Bob Dobbs: Could be.

[1:33:07] Cameron McEwen: But at any rate,

[1:33:08] Cameron McEwen: we agree that complications are very important to this.

[1:33:12] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:33:13] Bob Dobbs: he is a phenomenon.

[1:33:14] Bob Dobbs: He represents,

[1:33:15] Bob Dobbs: he's a figure for our time.

[1:33:16] Bob Dobbs: Like,

[1:33:17] Bob Dobbs: you run through the figures that McLuhan liked.

[1:33:19] Bob Dobbs: Florence Nightingale for The Telegraph,

[1:33:22] Bob Dobbs: Charlie Chaplin for the movie,

[1:33:25] Bob Dobbs: Hitler for the radio,

[1:33:28] Bob Dobbs: Beatles,

[1:33:28] Bob Dobbs: Ed Sullivan for TV,

[1:33:30] Bob Dobbs: or Walter Cronkite.

[1:33:31] Bob Dobbs: What did he say about,

[1:33:32] Bob Dobbs: who's the figure for TV?

[1:33:37] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:33:37] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:33:38] Cameron McEwen: the people you just mentioned.

[1:33:39] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:33:40] Bob Dobbs: Cronkite,

[1:33:41] Bob Dobbs: Beatles,

[1:33:41] Bob Dobbs: Ed Sullivan.

[1:33:42] Bob Dobbs: He talked about them.

[1:33:45] Bob Dobbs: And Jack Parr.

[1:33:47] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:33:47] Cameron McEwen: absolutely,

[1:33:48] Cameron McEwen: Jack Parr,

[1:33:49] Cameron McEwen: for sure.

[1:33:50] Bob Dobbs: And then that's it.

[1:33:52] Bob Dobbs: There's nobody,

[1:33:53] Bob Dobbs: he can't,

[1:33:54] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:33:55] Bob Dobbs: satellite computer,

[1:33:58] Bob Dobbs: don't think he has anthropomorphic images for them,

[1:34:02] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:34:03] Bob Dobbs: For those anti-environment.

[1:34:05] Cameron McEwen: Not that come immediately to mind.

[1:34:06] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:34:08] Cameron McEwen: It's more collectivities like IBM and General Electric.

[1:34:12] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:34:13] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:34:14] Bob Dobbs: Trump the

[1:34:15] Bob Dobbs: Florence Nightingale,

[1:34:17] Bob Dobbs: so to speak,

[1:34:17] Bob Dobbs: of social media.

[1:34:21] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:34:21] Bob Dobbs: not like her,

[1:34:22] Bob Dobbs: but an icon.

[1:34:23] Bob Dobbs: If McLuhan was around,

[1:34:25] Bob Dobbs: he could point out the meaning of

[1:34:28] Bob Dobbs: Trump he's a significant rupture.

[1:34:33] Bob Dobbs: of something uh-huh yep so yeah so even i mean even the distinction between the man and the icon there's a complication you know there's a lot of fun stuff to talk about uh

[1:34:49] Bob Dobbs: yeah that will McLuhan is one of the best guides to it maybe maybe um i have to close soon but i

[1:34:59] Cameron McEwen: One thing I want to mention that we can discuss at another time is in the last quotation of the book,

[1:35:09] Cameron McEwen: there's the word syndicate.

[1:35:11] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:35:14] Cameron McEwen: Of course,

[1:35:15] Cameron McEwen: what the hell a syndicate is,

[1:35:16] Cameron McEwen: is a very interesting question.

[1:35:19] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:35:21] Cameron McEwen: One of the things that

[1:35:23] Cameron McEwen: I try to do with you is

[1:35:26] Cameron McEwen: I try to think

[1:35:30] Cameron McEwen: sort of what you are able to echo in your distinctive way.

[1:35:38] Cameron McEwen: So you used to talk all the time about solar government,

[1:35:43] Bob Dobbs: all of this.

[1:35:44] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:35:47] Cameron McEwen: And there is a humorous side to that.

[1:35:49] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:35:50] Cameron McEwen: But there's also a very serious side to that.

[1:35:53] Cameron McEwen: Yep.

[1:35:54] Cameron McEwen: And so...

[1:35:54] Cameron McEwen: um,

[1:35:55] Cameron McEwen: Here's

[1:35:56] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan talking about the syndicate in 1972,

[1:36:01] Cameron McEwen: and you're talking about solar government.

[1:36:05] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:36:06] Bob Dobbs: his solar government statement is in 71 in the Varsity Graduate,

[1:36:10] Bob Dobbs: the hijacking of cities,

[1:36:12] Bob Dobbs: nations,

[1:36:12] Bob Dobbs: and planets.

[1:36:14] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:36:15] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[1:36:16] Cameron McEwen: And this kind of hijacking,

[1:36:20] Cameron McEwen: which we've talked about in the past,

[1:36:22] Cameron McEwen: is very,

[1:36:23] Cameron McEwen: very important.

[1:36:24] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:36:24] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:36:24] Cameron McEwen: that's...

[1:36:25] Cameron McEwen: exactly what is dominating history at the moment.

[1:36:30] Cameron McEwen: Everything has been hijacked.

[1:36:32] Bob Dobbs: Right,

[1:36:33] Bob Dobbs: and that's the meaning of Rumpelstiltskin in the bottom corner of my Tiny Note chart.

[1:36:39] Bob Dobbs: He's the hijacker.

[1:36:41] Bob Dobbs: And we can't name him.

[1:36:42] Bob Dobbs: We can't figure out what his name is,

[1:36:44] Bob Dobbs: how to describe him.

[1:36:45] Bob Dobbs: And I'm attempting to do that.

[1:36:48] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[1:36:49] Cameron McEwen: So all of that is very interesting stuff.

[1:36:54] Bob Dobbs: It will be fun to talk about.

[1:36:56] Cameron McEwen: And we'll get into that,

[1:37:01] Cameron McEwen: all of those topics,

[1:37:03] Cameron McEwen: all of those related topics in future conversations.

[1:37:07] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:37:07] Bob Dobbs: awesome.

[1:37:08] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:37:09] Bob Dobbs: well,

[1:37:09] Bob Dobbs: that was very good.

[1:37:10] Bob Dobbs: It's still echoing in the background,

[1:37:12] Bob Dobbs: so I think we got it all on record tonight.

[1:37:14] Bob Dobbs: Maybe.

[1:37:15] Cameron McEwen: Maybe.

[1:37:15] Cameron McEwen: We'll see.

[1:37:15] Bob Dobbs: All right.

[1:37:17] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:37:18] Cameron McEwen: Okay,

[1:37:18] Cameron McEwen: Bob.

[1:37:18] Bob Dobbs: Have a good week.

[1:37:20] Bob Dobbs: All right,

[1:37:20] Bob Dobbs: bye.

[1:37:20] Cameron McEwen: You too.

[1:37:21] Cameron McEwen: Bye.