[00:02] Bob Dobbs: Hello,
[00:03] Bob Dobbs: this is Ewen Cameron and Bob again,
[00:05] Bob Dobbs: and we're starting session number 41.
[00:10] Cameron McEwen: It might be 42.
[00:12] Bob Dobbs: No,
[00:12] Bob Dobbs: I checked with it.
[00:13] Bob Dobbs: We did 40.
[00:15] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[00:15] Bob Dobbs: the last one.
[00:16] Bob Dobbs: November 4th was 40.
[00:18] Bob Dobbs: And so we're looking at my pamphlet again,
[00:23] Bob Dobbs: my broadside,
[00:25] Bob Dobbs: and we're on page 77 at the top.
[00:29] Bob Dobbs: And we've sort of mentioned this.
[00:32] Bob Dobbs: shortly at the end of the last session.
[00:36] Bob Dobbs: And so
[00:39] Bob Dobbs: I'm going to read something here that will spark
[00:43] Bob Dobbs: Ewen Cameron to say something.
[00:44] Bob Dobbs: Meanwhile,
[00:45] Bob Dobbs: the abrasive confrontational aspects of tactility surfed over the old discontent merged slash interrupting surfaces.
[00:54] Bob Dobbs: This evoked the dominance of the neoconservative liberal meme slash preference in the Global Membrane of the last 35 years.
[01:02] Bob Dobbs: So that goes in 1985?
[01:08] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[01:08] Bob Dobbs: it'd be 40 from 80 to now.
[01:09] Bob Dobbs: So yeah,
[01:10] Bob Dobbs: in 1985.
[01:12] Bob Dobbs: So just after the archetypal 1984 year.
[01:17] Bob Dobbs: This evoked the dominance of the neoconservative liberal meme preference in the Global Membrane of the last 35 years.
[01:24] Bob Dobbs: Not knowing this aspect of McLuhan tactility led to a discounting of McLuhan relevance on a,
[01:29] Bob Dobbs: quote,
[01:30] Bob Dobbs: theoretical.
[01:31] Bob Dobbs: level for educational purposes.
[01:34] Cameron McEwen: So let's just stop there.
[01:36] Cameron McEwen: There's a few questions.
[01:38] Cameron McEwen: First off,
[01:40] Cameron McEwen: you talk about the Global Membrane,
[01:44] Cameron McEwen: the Global Membrane,
[01:46] Cameron McEwen: singular.
[01:47] Cameron McEwen: So you conceive the Global Membrane as a singular at all times so that the history of the world is one Global Membrane after another?
[02:01] Cameron McEwen: Or are there multiple Global Membrane at any one time,
[02:07] Cameron McEwen: but one that is sort of the majority voice?
[02:15] Bob Dobbs: First of all,
[02:17] Bob Dobbs: we might have mentioned that this phrase is used in
[02:21] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan review of Burroughs in December 1964 in Nation magazine.
[02:28] Bob Dobbs: Then you found a couple of more locations of it.
[02:32] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[02:32] Cameron McEwen: I found five or six total.
[02:36] Cameron McEwen: And I have a post just called Membrane that gives the context of all of them.
[02:43] Bob Dobbs: So
[02:44] Bob Dobbs: I could bring that up?
[02:46] Cameron McEwen: Sure.
[02:47] Bob Dobbs: So I go to McLuhan Sciences and then look in your index.
[02:53] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[02:54] Cameron McEwen: just look off to the right-hand side because it's one of the latest ones.
[02:57] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[02:58] Cameron McEwen: And you'll get it.
[03:04] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[03:05] Bob Dobbs: Membrane.
[03:08] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[03:08] Bob Dobbs: you've got 1962 in the Gutenberg Galaxy.
[03:14] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan says,
[03:14] Bob Dobbs: People of literary and critical bias find the shrill vehemence of
[03:19] Bob Dobbs: Teilhard
[03:20] Bob Dobbs: de Chardin,
[03:21] Bob Dobbs: as disconcerting as his uncritical enthusiasm for the cosmic membrane.
[03:26] Bob Dobbs: Wow.
[03:27] Bob Dobbs: that has been snapped around the globe by the electric dilation of our various senses.
[03:33] Bob Dobbs: Dilation means expansion,
[03:35] Bob Dobbs: right?
[03:35] Cameron McEwen: Correct,
[03:36] Cameron McEwen: yes,
[03:36] Cameron McEwen: sir.
[03:36] Bob Dobbs: Bigger.
[03:38] Bob Dobbs: Then he's got an article,
[03:39] Bob Dobbs: Electronic Age-The Age of Implosion,
[03:41] Bob Dobbs: 1962.
[03:43] Bob Dobbs: He says,
[03:43] Bob Dobbs: Electricity has wrapped the planet in a single cohesive field or membrane that is organic rather than mechanical in nature.
[03:51] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[03:52] Bob Dobbs: you have all this stuff in one big document,
[03:54] Bob Dobbs: and you can search it real fast?
[03:57] Cameron McEwen: Pretty much.
[03:58] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[03:58] Bob Dobbs: that's pretty good.
[03:59] Bob Dobbs: Then in the notes on Burroughs,
[04:01] Bob Dobbs: 1964,
[04:04] Bob Dobbs: he says,
[04:04] Bob Dobbs: Such is the law of electric media which stretched the nerves to form a Global Membrane of enclosure.
[04:10] Bob Dobbs: 72.
[04:11] Bob Dobbs: And take today,
[04:12] Bob Dobbs: page 217.
[04:15] Bob Dobbs: Government had begun in a modest way as the figure of the helmsman.
[04:20] Bob Dobbs: The ship represented the entire human community.
[04:22] Bob Dobbs: Today the rudder has become much larger than the ship.
[04:25] Cameron McEwen: What a great line.
[04:26] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[04:27] Bob Dobbs: I totally forgot that one.
[04:31] Bob Dobbs: The number of helmsmen are coextensive with the community.
[04:35] Bob Dobbs: That means everybody is a helmsman,
[04:37] Bob Dobbs: right,
[04:37] Bob Dobbs: to handle the huge rudder.
[04:38] Cameron McEwen: That's right.
[04:40] Cameron McEwen: That relates to hijacking.
[04:42] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[04:42] Bob Dobbs: that's pretty good.
[04:45] Bob Dobbs: The hijacker is the rudder.
[04:50] Bob Dobbs: You like that?
[04:50] Cameron McEwen: Who takes over the rudder.
[04:52] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[04:53] Bob Dobbs: do the people hijack the rudder?
[04:55] Bob Dobbs: Isn't the rudder hijacked the people?
[05:00] Cameron McEwen: That's an interesting thought.
[05:03] Cameron McEwen: I think both happen.
[05:08] Cameron McEwen: The possibility of the hijacker means that the rudder has changed,
[05:15] Cameron McEwen: has been transformed.
[05:16] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[05:17] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[05:18] Bob Dobbs: a good definition of tactility is both and,
[05:21] Bob Dobbs: and and is italicized.
[05:23] Cameron McEwen: Yes,
[05:24] Cameron McEwen: that's right.
[05:25] Cameron McEwen: But when we get back to your book,
[05:27] Cameron McEwen: I'll have something to say about that because when you talk about the abrasive potential of tactility,
[05:39] Cameron McEwen: that introduces a kind of knot,
[05:42] Cameron McEwen: K-N-O-T,
[05:43] Cameron McEwen: into the both and of tactility.
[05:47] Cameron McEwen: Because in order for tactility to be both and,
[05:51] Cameron McEwen: it must include either or.
[05:54] Cameron McEwen: Because if it didn't include either or.
[05:56] Cameron McEwen: then it wouldn't be both and.
[05:58] Cameron McEwen: So that's the big difficulty of tactility,
[06:04] Cameron McEwen: is that it's a very knotted,
[06:07] Cameron McEwen: K-N-O-T-T,
[06:10] Cameron McEwen: concept.
[06:11] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[06:11] Bob Dobbs: it doesn't,
[06:14] Bob Dobbs: it's the big now.
[06:16] Bob Dobbs: It doesn't get cut off.
[06:18] Bob Dobbs: It includes everything.
[06:20] Cameron McEwen: Correct.
[06:20] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[06:22] Bob Dobbs: So I was thinking last night,
[06:23] Bob Dobbs: I mentioned on this show I was on,
[06:27] Bob Dobbs: People in the 60s started to talk about going with the flow,
[06:31] Bob Dobbs: and
[06:32] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan talked about the flow of electric life.
[06:35] Bob Dobbs: So people thought that was an optimistic thing.
[06:38] Bob Dobbs: So they didn't know there's the discontinuity or the abrupt interface.
[06:43] Bob Dobbs: So
[06:43] Bob Dobbs: I then said,
[06:44] Bob Dobbs: it just occurred to me that the flow was the archetypalizing of the smooth surfaces of the automobile hood,
[06:55] Bob Dobbs: and maybe the movie.
[06:57] Bob Dobbs: And maybe the radio,
[06:59] Bob Dobbs: but not so much.
[07:00] Bob Dobbs: But he talked about the smooth surfaces,
[07:04] Bob Dobbs: which was echoed by swing jazz,
[07:07] Bob Dobbs: big band jazz.
[07:08] Bob Dobbs: Then rock and roll brought in the discontinuous abrupt interfaces,
[07:14] Bob Dobbs: including the body language of Elvis.
[07:18] Bob Dobbs: So the flow was really retrieving the smooth surfaces he once defined as the hot era.
[07:27] Bob Dobbs: before television,
[07:29] Bob Dobbs: the media of that period,
[07:32] Bob Dobbs: mainly the automobile.
[07:34] Bob Dobbs: The smooth surfaces is what people were saying,
[07:37] Bob Dobbs: go with the flow.
[07:38] Bob Dobbs: They had become conscious of the ground of smooth surfaces of the auto era,
[07:45] Bob Dobbs: and that's what they meant.
[07:47] Bob Dobbs: And then as the 60s and 70s and 80s unfolded,
[07:52] Bob Dobbs: people started to bump into stuff.
[07:55] Bob Dobbs: Factors that they hadn't foreseen of tactility,
[07:58] Bob Dobbs: the abrupt interfaces took over and people lost the flow.
[08:03] Bob Dobbs: And
[08:04] Bob Dobbs: I saw this in Carolyn practice.
[08:06] Bob Dobbs: People really started to get stressed out with environmental allergies and chronic fatigue and all that.
[08:11] Bob Dobbs: The bumping,
[08:15] Bob Dobbs: as the smooth flow receded because we were moving into maybe the Android Meme spaces.
[08:23] Bob Dobbs: So the abrupt interfaces of tactility became bigger and basically life became ruder,
[08:32] Bob Dobbs: not so decent.
[08:34] Bob Dobbs: You know the general impression that life has gotten,
[08:37] Bob Dobbs: that people have gotten crass or more crass.
[08:41] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[08:42] Bob Dobbs: anyways that was a pattern I never thought of before.
[08:44] Bob Dobbs: Going with the flow actually refers to the smooth surfaces of the hot electric hot electric hot period in the 20s and 30s.
[08:53] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[08:53] Cameron McEwen: you might be able to make that concrete by looking at razor blade ads.
[09:02] Cameron McEwen: You know,
[09:02] Cameron McEwen: the
[09:03] Cameron McEwen: World Series and boxing matches and stuff always used to be brought by Gillette.
[09:10] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[09:10] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[09:11] Cameron McEwen: And what Gillette could do for you was produce a smooth surface on your skin.
[09:19] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[09:19] Cameron McEwen: And then...
[09:21] Cameron McEwen: Going forward a couple decades,
[09:24] Cameron McEwen: that kind of advertising got lost,
[09:29] Cameron McEwen: and the beard started to come in,
[09:37] Cameron McEwen: and notice was taken that the old razor blades didn't shave black people very well.
[09:51] Cameron McEwen: they were producing cuts and bumps on their skin,
[09:56] Cameron McEwen: right?
[09:56] Cameron McEwen: And so you would have this,
[09:59] Cameron McEwen: what you're talking about here with go with the flow,
[10:04] Cameron McEwen: you know,
[10:04] Cameron McEwen: the nice shaving cream on your face,
[10:09] Cameron McEwen: get your nice face,
[10:11] Cameron McEwen: and all of this got lost over a couple decades there.
[10:16] Bob Dobbs: So
[10:17] Bob Dobbs: I assume what I just said you hadn't heard before.
[10:19] Bob Dobbs: But as soon as I said it,
[10:20] Bob Dobbs: the Gillette ad came to your mind,
[10:22] Bob Dobbs: right?
[10:23] Cameron McEwen: That's right.
[10:23] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[10:24] Bob Dobbs: Complementary fill-in.
[10:27] Bob Dobbs: Sensory fill-in there,
[10:28] Bob Dobbs: right?
[10:29] Bob Dobbs: My shocking anti-environment the rearview mirror archetype forced your senses to retrieve a complementary image.
[10:38] Bob Dobbs: That's very good.
[10:39] Bob Dobbs: So,
[10:42] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[10:42] Bob Dobbs: remember McLuhan said that the baby boomers were nostalgic for their grandfathers,
[10:48] Bob Dobbs: and that's why they put on farmer's overalls and wore beards.
[10:53] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[10:53] Bob Dobbs: they were trying to get back to a chemical body ground,
[10:57] Bob Dobbs: in a way,
[10:58] Bob Dobbs: get back to
[10:59] Bob Dobbs: Earth as created by the printing press.
[11:02] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[11:03] Cameron McEwen: and he was always thinking about Michael.
[11:06] Bob Dobbs: Oh yeah,
[11:07] Bob Dobbs: right.
[11:07] Bob Dobbs: He was a great barometer of world changes.
[11:11] Cameron McEwen: Correct.
[11:13] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[11:14] Bob Dobbs: He was the kid who had been fully TV seduced,
[11:18] Bob Dobbs: TV massage.
[11:20] Bob Dobbs: He was not like the older kids.
[11:23] Bob Dobbs: Right?
[11:24] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[11:24] Cameron McEwen: well,
[11:25] Cameron McEwen: I guess.
[11:26] Cameron McEwen: No,
[11:28] Cameron McEwen: that's what he said.
[11:30] Bob Dobbs: He said that Michael was very different from the other kids because he had grown up fully with TV.
[11:35] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[11:35] Cameron McEwen: I remember him saying that.
[11:37] Cameron McEwen: But to me,
[11:38] Cameron McEwen: the relationship with the girls is something that needs some teasing out.
[11:45] Cameron McEwen: I don't really know too much about it,
[11:48] Cameron McEwen: but the girls were all...
[11:51] Cameron McEwen: different from each other,
[11:53] Cameron McEwen: and their relationship with the old man must have been different from each other.
[11:58] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[12:00] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[12:01] Bob Dobbs: Mary always told me that she was Terry's twin,
[12:05] Bob Dobbs: so they were the oldest daughters.
[12:07] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[12:08] Bob Dobbs: But they were younger than Eric.
[12:10] Bob Dobbs: And
[12:10] Bob Dobbs: Mary said everybody,
[12:12] Bob Dobbs: probably the girls,
[12:14] Bob Dobbs: all agreed that Mary was
[12:16] Bob Dobbs: Marshall's favorite because she was most like Corinne.
[12:21] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[12:21] Bob Dobbs: so that within the family mythology,
[12:24] Bob Dobbs: I mean,
[12:25] Bob Dobbs: that's what Mary said,
[12:27] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[12:28] Bob Dobbs: but the...
[12:28] Cameron McEwen: I've got a sign of that from when they were babies.
[12:33] Cameron McEwen: The godfather of Eric was
[12:36] Cameron McEwen: Bernie Muller-Thym.
[12:38] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[12:39] Cameron McEwen: And then when the girls had to be baptized,
[12:44] Cameron McEwen: they were trying to figure out who would be the godfather of...
[12:49] Cameron McEwen: Mary and who would be the godfather of
[12:52] Cameron McEwen: Tetrad
[12:53] Cameron McEwen: Mary got
[12:56] Cameron McEwen: Bernie Miller team again.
[12:58] Cameron McEwen: And that was that
[13:00] Cameron McEwen: Miller team was kind of McLuhan hero and model at the time.
[13:05] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[13:06] Bob Dobbs: So Mary got a little bit of help.
[13:09] Cameron McEwen: That's correct.
[13:09] Bob Dobbs: Favored.
[13:11] Cameron McEwen: Right from the start.
[13:12] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[13:12] Bob Dobbs: And who what did Terry get?
[13:15] Bob Dobbs: Who?
[13:15] Cameron McEwen: You know,
[13:16] Cameron McEwen: I don't know,
[13:16] Cameron McEwen: but I think it was.
[13:18] Cameron McEwen: One of the people in
[13:21] Cameron McEwen: Windsor.
[13:23] Cameron McEwen: Okay.
[13:25] Cameron McEwen: I can't remember the name of the people there,
[13:28] Cameron McEwen: but I know there was a guy that was a priest there,
[13:32] Cameron McEwen: and then his sister helped the McLuhan family all the time.
[13:39] Bob Dobbs: That was Paulette or Pauline,
[13:41] Bob Dobbs: right?
[13:41] Cameron McEwen: That's right.
[13:42] Cameron McEwen: Exactly.
[13:43] Cameron McEwen: Exactly.
[13:44] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[13:44] Cameron McEwen: good man.
[13:45] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[13:46] Bob Dobbs: I think she's talked in one of the CD-ROMs she talks,
[13:49] Bob Dobbs: right?
[13:51] Bob Dobbs: I don't know.
[13:52] Bob Dobbs: I think she does.
[13:54] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[13:54] Bob Dobbs: and that first CD-ROM that came out,
[13:56] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[13:57] Bob Dobbs: in
[13:57] Bob Dobbs: 96 or so.
[13:59] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[14:00] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[14:01] Bob Dobbs: So,
[14:03] Bob Dobbs: let's see.
[14:04] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[14:04] Bob Dobbs: so what else did Mary say?
[14:12] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[14:12] Bob Dobbs: she used to say that Marshall would...
[14:15] Bob Dobbs: Fake up some talk down in L.A.
[14:20] Bob Dobbs: She was down in,
[14:22] Bob Dobbs: what's it called?
[14:23] Bob Dobbs: LaGuardia,
[14:23] Bob Dobbs: what do you call the...
[14:25] Cameron McEwen: Laguna?
[14:26] Bob Dobbs: Laguna,
[14:26] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[14:28] Bob Dobbs: I think she was down there at one point when she was still married,
[14:31] Bob Dobbs: and
[14:32] Bob Dobbs: Marshall liked to hang out with Mary.
[14:36] Bob Dobbs: And so he would say,
[14:37] Bob Dobbs: oh,
[14:37] Bob Dobbs: I've got to go speak to the bear there in L.A.
[14:41] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[14:41] Bob Dobbs: maybe he did do that.
[14:43] Bob Dobbs: But Mary said he would use excuses to get to see Mary,
[14:47] Bob Dobbs: maybe make up stuff.
[14:49] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[14:50] Cameron McEwen: I'm sure that's right.
[14:51] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[14:51] Bob Dobbs: and he liked hanging out with Mary.
[14:53] Bob Dobbs: And he liked the granddaughter,
[14:59] Bob Dobbs: Emily,
[14:59] Bob Dobbs: I think.
[14:59] Bob Dobbs: No,
[15:00] Bob Dobbs: I don't know.
[15:00] Bob Dobbs: Emily's one of Eric's daughters.
[15:01] Bob Dobbs: I forget her name.
[15:05] Bob Dobbs: So Mary had a lot of interesting stories.
[15:11] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[15:11] Bob Dobbs: she was honest,
[15:12] Bob Dobbs: kind of bragging,
[15:13] Bob Dobbs: but to me,
[15:14] Bob Dobbs: she was just honest about what she really thought was going on.
[15:18] Bob Dobbs: And she also got to live with the Gossages.
[15:22] Bob Dobbs: you know so she she gets out there and and six she was going to the university of windsor i think and then i don't know she'd finish but she went out to bam for summer work and then she decided not to go back to school but maybe she had finished and
[15:38] Bob Dobbs: so she just on her own went down to san francisco without telling anybody and when she got there uh she realized well i might need some support some financial support so she called the family and told them
[15:53] Bob Dobbs: Marchand Corinne that she was now in San Francisco.
[15:56] Bob Dobbs: And
[15:57] Bob Dobbs: I don't know what kind of questions or advice she asked for,
[16:01] Bob Dobbs: but they said,
[16:01] Bob Dobbs: go look up Howard Gossage.
[16:03] Bob Dobbs: So she did.
[16:04] Bob Dobbs: And she ended up,
[16:05] Bob Dobbs: I think,
[16:05] Bob Dobbs: staying with them for a couple of years.
[16:07] Bob Dobbs: And it was in that period.
[16:10] Bob Dobbs: One day she was walking to work.
[16:12] Bob Dobbs: And it would have been Newsweek.
[16:14] Bob Dobbs: And I think that was in spring,
[16:17] Bob Dobbs: February,
[16:17] Bob Dobbs: March 66.
[16:19] Bob Dobbs: He's on the cover.
[16:20] Bob Dobbs: and
[16:21] Bob Dobbs: Remember,
[16:21] Bob Dobbs: he didn't get on Times cover,
[16:23] Bob Dobbs: but he got on Newsweek.
[16:24] Bob Dobbs: And she's walking along,
[16:25] Bob Dobbs: and there she sees in the magazine stand a picture of her father.
[16:29] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[16:29] Bob Dobbs: she says,
[16:30] Bob Dobbs: I had no understanding why he would be there.
[16:33] Bob Dobbs: Like,
[16:33] Bob Dobbs: she was totally clueless about what he was doing as a professor.
[16:37] Bob Dobbs: And
[16:38] Bob Dobbs: I don't think,
[16:40] Bob Dobbs: it wasn't on the cover,
[16:41] Bob Dobbs: but maybe in the article,
[16:43] Bob Dobbs: there was this big question,
[16:44] Bob Dobbs: what if he's right?
[16:45] Bob Dobbs: And she said,
[16:46] Bob Dobbs: it was absolutely stunning,
[16:48] Bob Dobbs: funny,
[16:48] Bob Dobbs: shocking.
[16:49] Bob Dobbs: that everybody was wondering whether her father was right.
[16:54] Bob Dobbs: It totally personalized the thing,
[16:56] Bob Dobbs: you know what I mean?
[16:57] Bob Dobbs: Like a little mind,
[16:58] Bob Dobbs: a little girl's mind.
[17:00] Bob Dobbs: What?
[17:00] Bob Dobbs: They're all worried about my father,
[17:01] Bob Dobbs: whether he's right.
[17:04] Bob Dobbs: It's quite funny the way she described the effect.
[17:07] Bob Dobbs: So it also showed the dream world she was in,
[17:10] Bob Dobbs: in a sense.
[17:11] Bob Dobbs: She was in living her,
[17:14] Bob Dobbs: what do you call it,
[17:16] Bob Dobbs: becoming an adult,
[17:17] Bob Dobbs: working in the world.
[17:19] Bob Dobbs: being on her own now she got married coming of age yeah and she got married december 66 so she was married just after that so that would be the period when we assume she met this guy you know within earlier parts of 66 i don't know how quickly
[17:35] Bob Dobbs: they got married uh but um it would have mean that she was going to work on her own and uh you know single person and she saw her father there.
[17:46] Bob Dobbs: So that was shocking.
[17:48] Bob Dobbs: So she had a lot of stories about the Gossages,
[17:52] Bob Dobbs: which right now I can't remember any,
[17:54] Bob Dobbs: nothing that comes to mind.
[17:56] Bob Dobbs: But it became a tragedy because he died in 69 and his son committed suicide in there at some point.
[18:08] Bob Dobbs: So
[18:08] Bob Dobbs: I remember Edgar Z.
[18:09] Bob Dobbs: Friedenberg,
[18:10] Bob Dobbs: who did The Vanishing Adolescent and is quoted in Gutenberg Galaxy.
[18:14] Bob Dobbs: He taught at
[18:15] Bob Dobbs: Dalhousie in Halifax,
[18:17] Bob Dobbs: so I used to sit in his class.
[18:19] Bob Dobbs: And he talked about,
[18:21] Bob Dobbs: he thought there was something ominous there,
[18:24] Bob Dobbs: that the guy who promoted McLuhan ended up having his son kill himself.
[18:30] Bob Dobbs: So
[18:31] Bob Dobbs: Friedenberg was a bit suspicious of that.
[18:35] Bob Dobbs: But he didn't really like McLuhan.
[18:37] Bob Dobbs: I think I told you that he went to a conference at some point,
[18:41] Bob Dobbs: and Morris was there.
[18:43] Bob Dobbs: And Morris was subbing in for Marshall.
[18:45] Bob Dobbs: And Morris announced that Marshall was an only child.
[18:48] Bob Dobbs: And Friedenberg,
[18:49] Bob Dobbs: who had grown up in the South,
[18:51] Bob Dobbs: he was kind of like a
[18:52] Bob Dobbs: Truman Capote character.
[18:54] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[18:54] Bob Dobbs: a small bookworm kind of kid.
[18:59] Bob Dobbs: And very Marchand sensitive.
[19:02] Bob Dobbs: And gay.
[19:03] Bob Dobbs: And so he had a bit of an outsider reality.
[19:07] Bob Dobbs: So he was very sensitive to...
[19:12] Bob Dobbs: to
[19:13] Bob Dobbs: Marshall saying he was an only child,
[19:15] Bob Dobbs: or the brother saying that.
[19:16] Bob Dobbs: He thought that was shocking.
[19:18] Bob Dobbs: And I remember him,
[19:19] Bob Dobbs: he didn't like James Joyce.
[19:21] Bob Dobbs: James Joyce was too cold,
[19:24] Bob Dobbs: he said.
[19:25] Bob Dobbs: It's interesting.
[19:26] Bob Dobbs: Most intellectuals would say they liked Joyce or Ulysses,
[19:30] Bob Dobbs: you know what I mean?
[19:31] Bob Dobbs: They did.
[19:32] Bob Dobbs: They tended,
[19:33] Bob Dobbs: probably they had to say they liked it,
[19:34] Bob Dobbs: but he just said,
[19:35] Bob Dobbs: no,
[19:35] Bob Dobbs: I don't like Joyce,
[19:36] Bob Dobbs: he's cold.
[19:37] Bob Dobbs: So he was an interesting contrast for me.
[19:42] Bob Dobbs: in relation to processing McLuhan and Friedenberg at the same time.
[19:46] Bob Dobbs: That was a four-year period,
[19:50] Bob Dobbs: 73 to 77,
[19:51] Bob Dobbs: just before we came to Toronto.
[19:54] Bob Dobbs: And so I found it interesting how he performed.
[20:02] Bob Dobbs: He had been pretty successful as a public intellectual.
[20:08] Bob Dobbs: articles for the New York Review books and things like that.
[20:11] Bob Dobbs: And then he...
[20:13] Bob Dobbs: He got really pissed off about Vietnam,
[20:17] Bob Dobbs: so he couldn't,
[20:18] Bob Dobbs: as a conscience,
[20:19] Bob Dobbs: as an American,
[20:21] Bob Dobbs: he couldn't have a clear conscience of staying in the United States,
[20:24] Bob Dobbs: so he purposely moved to Canada so he would not be implicated in the Vietnam crisis.
[20:30] Bob Dobbs: So he isolated himself at Dalhousie.
[20:33] Bob Dobbs: So he would just sit there and talk.
[20:37] Bob Dobbs: These were graduates in education,
[20:39] Bob Dobbs: the Department of Education,
[20:40] Bob Dobbs: they were graduates.
[20:42] Bob Dobbs: I think,
[20:42] Bob Dobbs: not undergraduates.
[20:44] Bob Dobbs: And he would just talk,
[20:46] Bob Dobbs: in a way like Marshall did on
[20:48] Bob Dobbs: Monday night,
[20:49] Bob Dobbs: and maybe in his classes.
[20:52] Bob Dobbs: And the kids didn't know what the hell he was talking about.
[20:56] Bob Dobbs: They didn't know enough,
[20:57] Bob Dobbs: and it was quite worldly and sophisticated stuff.
[21:00] Bob Dobbs: And so then there was a great mail strike,
[21:05] Bob Dobbs: postal strike in 75.
[21:07] Bob Dobbs: And like for four months or something,
[21:10] Bob Dobbs: we got no...
[21:11] Bob Dobbs: no mail.
[21:12] Bob Dobbs: And he was in total agony because he couldn't get his New Yorker and all the magazines he subscribed to.
[21:18] Bob Dobbs: He was addicted to them.
[21:20] Bob Dobbs: And he felt like totally at loss,
[21:22] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[21:22] Bob Dobbs: he was falling behind.
[21:24] Bob Dobbs: And he would talk about this in the class.
[21:28] Bob Dobbs: So that's one of the things I remember about him.
[21:32] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[21:33] Bob Dobbs: so we're talking about Mary and the twins.
[21:37] Bob Dobbs: Why did that come up?
[21:39] Cameron McEwen: Oh,
[21:40] Cameron McEwen: we went.
[21:41] Cameron McEwen: from
[21:42] Cameron McEwen: Michael over to the girl.
[21:44] Cameron McEwen: Oh,
[21:44] Bob Dobbs: what he said about Michael.
[21:46] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[21:47] Bob Dobbs: he,
[21:49] Bob Dobbs: oh,
[21:49] Bob Dobbs: yes.
[21:50] Bob Dobbs: So in the documentary,
[21:53] Bob Dobbs: Telescope,
[21:55] Bob Dobbs: that CBC did,
[21:57] Bob Dobbs: Michael is the odd man out.
[22:00] Bob Dobbs: He,
[22:01] Bob Dobbs: okay,
[22:02] Bob Dobbs: he's a TV child.
[22:03] Bob Dobbs: In a way,
[22:04] Bob Dobbs: he's going to be an independent kid.
[22:07] Bob Dobbs: So he says he doesn't believe his father.
[22:09] Bob Dobbs: Do you remember that?
[22:11] Cameron McEwen: Vaguely.
[22:12] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[22:13] Bob Dobbs: I may have brought this up 39 shows ago,
[22:15] Bob Dobbs: but people might start.
[22:19] Bob Dobbs: I tell people to start listening right at the latest,
[22:21] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[22:22] Bob Dobbs: the ones who are doing that.
[22:23] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[22:24] Bob Dobbs: so they wouldn't have heard this.
[22:26] Bob Dobbs: He says in the documentary he discounts his father.
[22:32] Bob Dobbs: Why?
[22:32] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[22:33] Bob Dobbs: I came home from school one day,
[22:35] Bob Dobbs: and Dad asked me,
[22:36] Bob Dobbs: What did you learn today?
[22:38] Bob Dobbs: And he said,
[22:38] Bob Dobbs: I learned that Brasilia was the capital of Brazil.
[22:42] Bob Dobbs: And his father said,
[22:42] Bob Dobbs: no.
[22:43] Bob Dobbs: He said,
[22:43] Bob Dobbs: Dad said,
[22:44] Bob Dobbs: no,
[22:44] Bob Dobbs: it isn't.
[22:46] Bob Dobbs: Rio de Janeiro.
[22:47] Bob Dobbs: Is it Rio de Janeiro?
[22:48] Bob Dobbs: I think it is.
[22:49] Bob Dobbs: It's the capital.
[22:51] Bob Dobbs: And the kid said,
[22:52] Bob Dobbs: no,
[22:52] Bob Dobbs: no,
[22:53] Bob Dobbs: the teacher taught us in Brasilia.
[22:54] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[22:54] Bob Dobbs: your teacher's wrong.
[22:58] Bob Dobbs: And this is said in the documentary.
[23:00] Bob Dobbs: That is his contribution to the documentary.
[23:03] Bob Dobbs: And he said,
[23:04] Bob Dobbs: I never listened to Dad after that.
[23:08] Bob Dobbs: And then he got into,
[23:09] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[23:09] Bob Dobbs: getting into a bit of the dope world and got in trouble.
[23:12] Bob Dobbs: But he represented the kid who was outside of the nuclear family,
[23:19] Bob Dobbs: right?
[23:20] Bob Dobbs: He'd been molested by the cool TV image and the Global Membrane.
[23:27] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[23:29] Cameron McEwen: he had gone out of the micro family into the macro family.
[23:33] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[23:34] Bob Dobbs: he went and left the micro.
[23:38] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[23:39] Bob Dobbs: so back to this.
[23:41] Bob Dobbs: So in 73,
[23:43] Bob Dobbs: in the Implications of Cultural Uniformity,
[23:45] Bob Dobbs: 1973,
[23:46] Bob Dobbs: which is a good article,
[23:47] Bob Dobbs: I know that article,
[23:49] Bob Dobbs: Finnegans Wake is very much concerned with the resonance in the tribal membrane,
[23:53] Bob Dobbs: tribal membrane in quotes,
[23:55] Bob Dobbs: and the drama among the instincts and the artifacts of language and technology leading to the awareness of the electric role in waking or retrieving the old tribal man.
[24:07] Bob Dobbs: Then you have in Superculture,
[24:11] Bob Dobbs: that's a good article too.
[24:12] Bob Dobbs: Superculture,
[24:14] Bob Dobbs: why is that footnote?
[24:15] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[24:15] Bob Dobbs: it's after 73,
[24:16] Bob Dobbs: I see.
[24:17] Bob Dobbs: So you have a footnote.
[24:18] Bob Dobbs: Superculture.
[24:19] Cameron McEwen: So the article,
[24:21] Cameron McEwen: Implications of Cultural Uniformity,
[24:23] Cameron McEwen: is in
[24:25] Cameron McEwen: Superculture. Right.
[24:28] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[24:28] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[24:28] Bob Dobbs: So you talk,
[24:29] Bob Dobbs: you explain.
[24:30] Bob Dobbs: With Tribal Membrane,
[24:31] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan was citing from William Empson great poem Arachne,
[24:35] Bob Dobbs: quote,
[24:36] Bob Dobbs: King spider walks the velvet roof of streams,
[24:39] Bob Dobbs: must bird and fish,
[24:41] Bob Dobbs: must god and beast avoid,
[24:44] Bob Dobbs: dance like nine angels on pinpoint extremes,
[24:48] Bob Dobbs: his gleaming bubble between void and void,
[24:51] Bob Dobbs: tribe hyphenated,
[24:52] Bob Dobbs: tribe membrane,
[24:54] Bob Dobbs: that by mutual tension stands,
[24:57] Bob Dobbs: earth's surface film is at a breath destroyed.
[25:00] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[25:01] Bob Dobbs: that's,
[25:01] Bob Dobbs: he's describing what I was talking about,
[25:03] Bob Dobbs: the hot That's right.
[25:05] Bob Dobbs: The tactility,
[25:06] Bob Dobbs: the tribal membrane,
[25:09] Bob Dobbs: upsets that.
[25:10] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[25:10] Bob Dobbs: that's very interesting.
[25:13] Bob Dobbs: Basically,
[25:15] Bob Dobbs: it confirms how I imagine the Global Membrane.
[25:19] Bob Dobbs: It is a resonant node.
[25:21] Bob Dobbs: It's a spot that we're all in,
[25:23] Bob Dobbs: which has no dimensions.
[25:26] Bob Dobbs: So if you ask people to consider what is tactility,
[25:30] Bob Dobbs: if McLuhan says it's not a sense,
[25:34] Bob Dobbs: but it's the interplay of senses,
[25:36] Bob Dobbs: it's not a sense,
[25:37] Bob Dobbs: people might say,
[25:39] Bob Dobbs: oh,
[25:40] Bob Dobbs: okay,
[25:40] Bob Dobbs: or I'll tell them,
[25:41] Bob Dobbs: think of it as your mind.
[25:43] Bob Dobbs: The mind is the thing that we can't find.
[25:46] Bob Dobbs: It's very hard to say what the mind is.
[25:51] Bob Dobbs: And they talk about the difference between the brain and the mind.
[25:54] Bob Dobbs: So the Innis of the mind is like tactility,
[25:59] Bob Dobbs: which is not a sense.
[26:01] Bob Dobbs: So the Global Membrane is an extension of mind or tactility.
[26:10] Bob Dobbs: And we've imploded Innis one spot.
[26:14] Bob Dobbs: Like we could right now,
[26:17] Bob Dobbs: somebody could,
[26:19] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[26:19] Bob Dobbs: conference in with us and then get some,
[26:22] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[26:23] Bob Dobbs: NORAD computer and then hook up a billion people,
[26:27] Bob Dobbs: right?
[26:27] Bob Dobbs: And they'd all be in the conference call.
[26:30] Bob Dobbs: We'd all be Innis one ineffable space,
[26:33] Bob Dobbs: right?
[26:34] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[26:35] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[26:35] Bob Dobbs: And it would be the space that people would think their mind is.
[26:39] Bob Dobbs: but it's been externalized.
[26:41] Bob Dobbs: So it's one Global Membrane is what I would say when you ask me,
[26:47] Bob Dobbs: it's not more than one.
[26:50] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[26:50] Bob Dobbs: the digital,
[26:51] Bob Dobbs: so that happens with television.
[26:54] Bob Dobbs: The digital breaks that up.
[26:58] Bob Dobbs: You can disconnect from the Global Membrane.
[27:03] Bob Dobbs: At least half of you can.
[27:06] Bob Dobbs: See,
[27:06] Bob Dobbs: so I see the digital.
[27:08] Bob Dobbs: which is the Android Meme,
[27:10] Bob Dobbs: brings in more and more autonomy.
[27:12] Bob Dobbs: Do you get me?
[27:18] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[27:18] Cameron McEwen: I think autonomy would need to be teased apart there.
[27:23] Cameron McEwen: Autonomy can cover too many things to work as a definition there.
[27:29] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[27:31] Bob Dobbs: anti-environment gives you the autonomy,
[27:33] Bob Dobbs: so it's not pure autonomy.
[27:36] Bob Dobbs: the digital environment allows you to disconnect from the Global Membrane and go off into another space.
[27:43] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[27:43] Cameron McEwen: that's right.
[27:44] Cameron McEwen: But there is one sort of autonomy that belongs to every different kind of space.
[27:53] Cameron McEwen: So the autonomy that you get that you're talking about here of disconnection relates to what we were saying earlier about how the...
[28:05] Cameron McEwen: flow changed.
[28:06] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[28:07] Cameron McEwen: So there was an autonomy that was associated with the smooth membrane,
[28:17] Cameron McEwen: but there's also an autonomy that goes with the abrasive membrane.
[28:23] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[28:24] Cameron McEwen: And sort of the trick in all of this is to understand how So...
[28:34] Cameron McEwen: these characteristics hang together,
[28:39] Cameron McEwen: right?
[28:40] Cameron McEwen: And that hanging together is what you could call the total range of tactility.
[28:45] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[28:46] Bob Dobbs: So the telephone,
[28:48] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan said,
[28:49] Bob Dobbs: that allows you to bypass the organization chart and call the boss or interact with the boss directly or set up your own networks.
[29:01] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[29:02] Bob Dobbs: before electrics,
[29:03] Bob Dobbs: You're in a print newspaper bureaucracy,
[29:09] Bob Dobbs: and how could you conspire in that?
[29:13] Bob Dobbs: You just basically assassinate the boss or something.
[29:16] Bob Dobbs: But you don't have a medium to create a network within the bureaucracy.
[29:24] Bob Dobbs: It's all written messages,
[29:26] Bob Dobbs: or not written,
[29:28] Bob Dobbs: but you're dealing with a written thing.
[29:29] Bob Dobbs: So the electric,
[29:31] Bob Dobbs: the first...
[29:32] Bob Dobbs: phase of autonomy is the effect of the telephone from the prison of the literate bureaucracy.
[29:41] Bob Dobbs: Then the digital,
[29:46] Bob Dobbs: that puts you,
[29:47] Bob Dobbs: it's like
[29:49] Bob Dobbs: I could hang,
[29:49] Bob Dobbs: I could disconnect from talking to you and go and talk to someone else.
[29:56] Bob Dobbs: You would know that I did that.
[29:58] Bob Dobbs: Or if I had some sophisticated technology I could do.
[30:00] Bob Dobbs: I could do it on another.
[30:02] Bob Dobbs: I could be texting on my cell phone on another phone,
[30:06] Bob Dobbs: and you wouldn't know about that.
[30:08] Bob Dobbs: So the...
[30:10] Bob Dobbs: The autonomy of the digital is more comprehensive than the autonomy that the phone starts to create.
[30:19] Bob Dobbs: So the phone is analog,
[30:22] Bob Dobbs: and then the digital spaces,
[30:27] Bob Dobbs: they're more subtle.
[30:28] Bob Dobbs: I don't know,
[30:29] Bob Dobbs: you get more micro,
[30:30] Bob Dobbs: more layers of micro with this texting world.
[30:36] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[30:36] Cameron McEwen: so it's not that the...
[30:39] Cameron McEwen: Layers of the micro weren't there before.
[30:44] Cameron McEwen: If you imagine an IBM in 1935 or something like this,
[30:52] Cameron McEwen: everybody's dressed the same and everybody has their place in the corporate order and all this sort of stuff.
[31:00] Cameron McEwen: But if you drill down,
[31:02] Cameron McEwen: all of the people are different,
[31:04] Cameron McEwen: all of their families are different,
[31:06] Cameron McEwen: everybody has different problems.
[31:08] Cameron McEwen: Everybody has different bodies,
[31:10] Cameron McEwen: etc.
[31:11] Cameron McEwen: But it's not explicit.
[31:13] Cameron McEwen: And so with change of technological environment,
[31:20] Cameron McEwen: things become explicit that previously were implicit.
[31:26] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[31:27] Bob Dobbs: In other words,
[31:29] Bob Dobbs: you can see on Instagram.
[31:31] Bob Dobbs: And remember Marshall said in the
[31:35] Bob Dobbs: Take Today in 72,
[31:37] Bob Dobbs: The video phone would not be accepted at that point because people would be too hassled with if they had to answer their video phone and be visible on the screen,
[31:48] Bob Dobbs: they'd have to tidy themselves up or something.
[31:51] Bob Dobbs: So people,
[31:52] Bob Dobbs: they couldn't handle being seen.
[31:55] Bob Dobbs: The literate or the baby boomer,
[31:58] Bob Dobbs: older than the baby boomers,
[32:00] Bob Dobbs: had a stronger sense of private,
[32:04] Bob Dobbs: a separation between private uh
[32:07] Bob Dobbs: slovenliness and going out in public.
[32:10] Bob Dobbs: You've seen social life in the street for the last 30 years has become way more slovenly.
[32:17] Bob Dobbs: People are wearing sneakers and sweatsuits.
[32:21] Bob Dobbs: I remember my mother being appalled that people wore sneakers.
[32:27] Bob Dobbs: It would be in the 70s outside of the gymnasium.
[32:32] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[32:34] Bob Dobbs: That was shocking.
[32:35] Bob Dobbs: But they had a very high
[32:37] Bob Dobbs: preference for visual order.
[32:40] Bob Dobbs: So you could,
[32:42] Bob Dobbs: the video phone couldn't work in 72,
[32:43] Bob Dobbs: but it could work in 2002.
[32:48] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[32:48] Bob Dobbs: people are allowing,
[32:49] Bob Dobbs: when did people start seeing themselves on their phones?
[32:53] Cameron McEwen: I don't know,
[32:54] Cameron McEwen: but I've got a good example of what you're talking about from
[32:59] Cameron McEwen: Ian and Bob.
[33:00] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[33:01] Bob Dobbs: okay.
[33:01] Cameron McEwen: There was,
[33:04] Cameron McEwen: Ed put up a segment.
[33:07] Cameron McEwen: from the megan kelly show yeah it's an interview with kash patel oh yeah and um uh megan is all made up and you can tell that she's trying to follow a script and stuff and she's just she's terrible at what she's trying to do yeah
[33:28] Cameron McEwen: if you compare it to Amazing Polly for example yeah um Amazing Polly is just
[33:35] Cameron McEwen: fantastic at doing what she does.
[33:39] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[33:39] Bob Dobbs: did you see her latest one called Raw,
[33:42] Bob Dobbs: where she was quite disheveled in her emotions,
[33:45] Bob Dobbs: and she came on early in the morning smoking her hair a mess,
[33:49] Bob Dobbs: and in her bathrobe and drinking,
[33:51] Bob Dobbs: did you see that one,
[33:52] Bob Dobbs: and she had it with her mother?
[33:54] Cameron McEwen: Oh,
[33:54] Bob Dobbs: it's great.
[33:55] Bob Dobbs: She declares war on her mother.
[33:57] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[34:01] Bob Dobbs: she never smokes,
[34:02] Bob Dobbs: Then I started watching it a year ago.
[34:04] Bob Dobbs: Never smoked,
[34:05] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[34:05] Bob Dobbs: but she did once a little the other day,
[34:07] Bob Dobbs: but she just sat there smoking.
[34:09] Bob Dobbs: It was exactly like,
[34:11] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[34:11] Bob Dobbs: when you're in suburbia and you visit your neighbor and you're friendly,
[34:15] Bob Dobbs: so she's going to sit there in her morning bathrobe,
[34:18] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[34:18] Bob Dobbs: and drink her coffee.
[34:19] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[34:20] Bob Dobbs: That's what she was doing.
[34:21] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[34:22] Bob Dobbs: but she pulls it off.
[34:24] Bob Dobbs: I really like her face.
[34:26] Bob Dobbs: Her face is very,
[34:27] Bob Dobbs: I don't know,
[34:28] Bob Dobbs: real.
[34:30] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[34:30] Cameron McEwen: she comes across as a real person talking about real stuff.
[34:35] Cameron McEwen: If you compare it to Megyn Kelly.
[34:38] Cameron McEwen: The stuff that she's talking about is important,
[34:41] Cameron McEwen: but it's all canned.
[34:44] Cameron McEwen: What she's doing is the same thing that she used to do on Fox,
[34:49] Cameron McEwen: and then I think she worked for
[34:51] Cameron McEwen: MSNBC.
[34:53] Cameron McEwen: I'm not sure.
[34:53] Cameron McEwen: Some other group gave her millions and millions of dollars,
[34:57] Cameron McEwen: and it didn't work out.
[34:59] Cameron McEwen: So now in her retirement or whatever,
[35:04] Cameron McEwen: She's become an interviewer with her own show.
[35:09] Cameron McEwen: But just look it up.
[35:10] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[35:11] Cameron McEwen: she's just terrible at it.
[35:13] Cameron McEwen: Because she doesn't understand how the sorts of stuff that you're talking about now works.
[35:20] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[35:21] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[35:21] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[35:22] Bob Dobbs: And I think
[35:23] Bob Dobbs: I just glanced at that shot of the screen.
[35:26] Bob Dobbs: Wasn't Patel really slovenly dressed?
[35:30] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[35:30] Bob Dobbs: I noticed that.
[35:31] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[35:32] Bob Dobbs: I should see that guy.
[35:35] Cameron McEwen: And so he comes across as the way he should.
[35:39] Cameron McEwen: He comes across like the Amazing Polly does.
[35:43] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[35:44] Cameron McEwen: And so it looks like somebody from 1965 interviewing somebody from 2021.
[35:57] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[35:58] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[35:59] Cameron McEwen: That's a joke.
[36:00] Bob Dobbs: And,
[36:01] Bob Dobbs: okay,
[36:01] Bob Dobbs: so the thing about Polly,
[36:05] Bob Dobbs: I think her face is a tribal mask.
[36:10] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[36:13] Bob Dobbs: Everything's perfectly proportioned,
[36:15] Bob Dobbs: and so you don't get her personality,
[36:24] Bob Dobbs: her uniqueness in her face.
[36:26] Bob Dobbs: Her face is always the same.
[36:28] Bob Dobbs: It has a good repertoire of facial Explorations,
[36:31] Bob Dobbs: you know.
[36:33] Bob Dobbs: It comes across very rubbery and natural.
[36:41] Bob Dobbs: But you really think of it.
[36:43] Bob Dobbs: Remember how McLuhan would say that the chiaroscuro of the white person's face on color TV really looked pale and didn't work?
[36:52] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[36:53] Bob Dobbs: And the smooth,
[36:54] Bob Dobbs: whatever you call it,
[36:55] Bob Dobbs: of the black face was...
[36:57] Bob Dobbs: way more iconic and Schoeck for color TV.
[37:02] Bob Dobbs: And she,
[37:03] Bob Dobbs: as a white person,
[37:04] Bob Dobbs: has that quality in her face,
[37:07] Bob Dobbs: the black quality,
[37:09] Bob Dobbs: I think.
[37:10] Bob Dobbs: Anyways,
[37:10] Bob Dobbs: that's what I've looked at her for a lot now,
[37:13] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[37:13] Bob Dobbs: for almost a year.
[37:15] Cameron McEwen: Do you watch only on ION and Bob,
[37:20] Cameron McEwen: or do you watch on her own channel?
[37:23] Bob Dobbs: No,
[37:24] Bob Dobbs: I do it on Ion and Bob,
[37:25] Bob Dobbs: and so I'm missing all the other videos she's making.
[37:28] Bob Dobbs: I don't go to anywhere else.
[37:30] Bob Dobbs: I only have time for one a week,
[37:32] Bob Dobbs: so to speak,
[37:33] Bob Dobbs: that she's been doing.
[37:35] Bob Dobbs: Why,
[37:35] Bob Dobbs: do you go to the other places?
[37:37] Cameron McEwen: No,
[37:37] Cameron McEwen: no,
[37:38] Cameron McEwen: I only do Ion and Bob.
[37:39] Cameron McEwen: I haven't seen her for a while because
[37:42] Cameron McEwen: Ed hasn't put any up for a while.
[37:44] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[37:45] Bob Dobbs: you might have missed it.
[37:46] Bob Dobbs: Go back a few,
[37:47] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[37:48] Bob Dobbs: page six or seven.
[37:50] Bob Dobbs: Maybe I'll find it and send it to you.
[37:52] Bob Dobbs: It's called Raw.
[37:53] Bob Dobbs: And that's the one where,
[37:54] Bob Dobbs: you see,
[37:55] Bob Dobbs: she made a documentary.
[37:56] Bob Dobbs: Did you see that?
[37:59] Bob Dobbs: You probably didn't see that.
[38:00] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[38:00] Cameron McEwen: I did.
[38:01] Cameron McEwen: The one where she's talking about the restaurant in Kingston?
[38:06] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[38:06] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[38:06] Cameron McEwen: I saw it.
[38:07] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[38:08] Bob Dobbs: It got the lowest views.
[38:11] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[38:12] Cameron McEwen: I saw her talking about that.
[38:13] Cameron McEwen: Oh,
[38:14] Bob Dobbs: okay.
[38:14] Bob Dobbs: Then you saw the one where she was smoking.
[38:16] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[38:19] Cameron McEwen: That's right.
[38:20] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[38:21] Cameron McEwen: Okay.
[38:21] Cameron McEwen: But I thought that she...
[38:22] Cameron McEwen: sort of screwed up on the documentary because she tried to make it like the sort of documentary that anybody would make.
[38:34] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[38:34] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[38:34] Cameron McEwen: So the Amazing Polly,
[38:36] Cameron McEwen: when she just comes on and talks and smokes and has her cup of coffee and stuff like that,
[38:42] Cameron McEwen: that that's only the Amazing Polly.
[38:46] Cameron McEwen: But the documentary was generic.
[38:49] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[38:49] Cameron McEwen: I didn't I didn't think it was all that great.
[38:52] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[38:55] Bob Dobbs: I didn't know that was her narrating for like 10 or 15 minutes into it.
[39:00] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[39:00] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[39:01] Bob Dobbs: it wasn't her,
[39:02] Bob Dobbs: her voice.
[39:02] Cameron McEwen: That's right,
[39:03] Cameron McEwen: her voice was off.
[39:04] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[39:04] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[39:05] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[39:06] Bob Dobbs: but anyway,
[39:07] Bob Dobbs: the drama was that her mother and daughter refused to watch it.
[39:14] Bob Dobbs: And her mother said,
[39:15] Bob Dobbs: that's just a lot of negative stuff.
[39:19] Bob Dobbs: And they're living in the community there.
[39:21] Bob Dobbs: It's your neighbor down the street that's getting in trouble,
[39:24] Bob Dobbs: being shut down.
[39:27] Bob Dobbs: Polly's appalled at her mother saying,
[39:32] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[39:33] Bob Dobbs: I ain't engaging in your negative stuff.
[39:35] Bob Dobbs: And then the mother calls her back like an hour later and it goes on and on about the disaster in British Columbia with all the flooding.
[39:42] Bob Dobbs: The most negative stuff going.
[39:46] Bob Dobbs: And she says to her mother,
[39:47] Bob Dobbs: look,
[39:48] Bob Dobbs: you're talking about real negative stuff out there.
[39:53] Bob Dobbs: My video has a positive outcome.
[39:55] Bob Dobbs: It's positive.
[39:56] Bob Dobbs: She wouldn't have it.
[39:57] Bob Dobbs: Then the mother,
[39:59] Bob Dobbs: just before she hangs up,
[40:00] Bob Dobbs: she says,
[40:00] Bob Dobbs: just start having a good time.
[40:02] Bob Dobbs: I don't know what her name is.
[40:04] Bob Dobbs: I don't think Polly's her real name.
[40:05] Cameron McEwen: The mother thinks that Polly's falling apart.
[40:08] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[40:09] Cameron McEwen: And she may be right.
[40:12] Cameron McEwen: Yes.
[40:13] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[40:14] Bob Dobbs: So anyways,
[40:15] Bob Dobbs: Polly was criticized for not being able to have a good time anymore.
[40:20] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[40:20] Bob Dobbs: be happy.
[40:21] Bob Dobbs: So that was,
[40:23] Bob Dobbs: what do you call it?
[40:23] Bob Dobbs: That's war talk.
[40:25] Bob Dobbs: Those are fighting words.
[40:26] Bob Dobbs: So Polly says,
[40:27] Bob Dobbs: that's a problem.
[40:28] Bob Dobbs: You've got a lot of people out there who just want to be happy,
[40:31] Bob Dobbs: and they're not looking at what's sneaking up on them,
[40:33] Bob Dobbs: the disaster that's coming.
[40:35] Bob Dobbs: And so she says,
[40:37] Bob Dobbs: I want you out there,
[40:38] Bob Dobbs: the people I love,
[40:39] Bob Dobbs: the ones who have looked at the documentary,
[40:41] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[40:43] Bob Dobbs: people who understand me,
[40:46] Bob Dobbs: we have to declare war on my mother,
[40:49] Bob Dobbs: is what she said.
[40:52] Bob Dobbs: We can't have my mother win.
[40:54] Bob Dobbs: That type of person is going to ruin us if we all just look for happy days.
[40:59] Bob Dobbs: And so she really,
[41:01] Bob Dobbs: she says early in the video that she said,
[41:03] Bob Dobbs: I'm even having problems with my family.
[41:05] Bob Dobbs: But by the end of the video,
[41:06] Bob Dobbs: if you didn't watch it all,
[41:07] Bob Dobbs: she goes into the details of it.
[41:10] Bob Dobbs: And so then Carolyn saw this,
[41:13] Bob Dobbs: and she said later,
[41:15] Bob Dobbs: isn't she,
[41:16] Bob Dobbs: like,
[41:16] Bob Dobbs: prevented?
[41:17] Bob Dobbs: Her mother won't let her see her daughter?
[41:19] Bob Dobbs: And I said,
[41:20] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[41:20] Bob Dobbs: that sounds like,
[41:21] Bob Dobbs: I think she did mention that.
[41:22] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[41:22] Bob Dobbs: I think she's.
[41:24] Bob Dobbs: She's blocked from her daughter.
[41:27] Bob Dobbs: Anyways,
[41:28] Bob Dobbs: and then she also had a very bad week.
[41:31] Bob Dobbs: Did you hear the part where her husband got laid off a couple days before this video?
[41:36] Cameron McEwen: No.
[41:37] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[41:38] Cameron McEwen: I probably got tired of it.
[41:39] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[41:40] Cameron McEwen: You couldn't tell.
[41:41] Bob Dobbs: It was too personal.
[41:42] Bob Dobbs: It was draining you.
[41:44] Bob Dobbs: Too involving.
[41:46] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[41:46] Cameron McEwen: it was too much of the same thing over and over again.
[41:50] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[41:50] Cameron McEwen: She couldn't let it go.
[41:52] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[41:52] Bob Dobbs: You mean within the video?
[41:54] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[41:56] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[41:57] Bob Dobbs: So her husband lost his job,
[41:59] Bob Dobbs: and they said they were prepared for that because they knew if he
[42:03] Bob Dobbs: I think he wouldn't tell them whether he'd been vaccinated or not.
[42:08] Bob Dobbs: That was the condition at his particular workplace.
[42:11] Bob Dobbs: So he got fired,
[42:13] Bob Dobbs: and they're dealing with it.
[42:15] Bob Dobbs: And meanwhile,
[42:17] Bob Dobbs: her
[42:20] Bob Dobbs: Mail is not coming in like it should.
[42:22] Bob Dobbs: And she needs the mail because that's the checks.
[42:25] Bob Dobbs: She makes a living from this.
[42:27] Bob Dobbs: So she thinks somebody in there,
[42:30] Bob Dobbs: the government or somebody,
[42:31] Bob Dobbs: is fucking with her mail.
[42:33] Bob Dobbs: And some other service was getting interrupted.
[42:37] Bob Dobbs: And she talked about back a couple of years ago when she had huge viewers and was global.
[42:46] Bob Dobbs: And then one day...
[42:46] Cameron McEwen: That's when she was on YouTube.
[42:48] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[42:49] Bob Dobbs: One day,
[42:50] Bob Dobbs: same day,
[42:50] Bob Dobbs: PayPal and YouTube dropped her.
[42:53] Bob Dobbs: And she said,
[42:53] Bob Dobbs: I lost a lot of money and I built it back up.
[42:58] Bob Dobbs: But that was a real shocker when they just cut off her livelihood.
[43:03] Bob Dobbs: So she built it back up and they've been doing well,
[43:07] Bob Dobbs: but now they're in trouble again a little bit.
[43:09] Bob Dobbs: I don't know what they're going to do,
[43:11] Bob Dobbs: but she's in trouble if somebody is stealing her checks.
[43:15] Bob Dobbs: That's a problem.
[43:19] Bob Dobbs: It's,
[43:20] Bob Dobbs: we're following her career.
[43:22] Bob Dobbs: We're going to see how far this revolution goes.
[43:26] Bob Dobbs: And we interrupt.
[43:28] Cameron McEwen: Days of our lives.
[43:29] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[43:30] Bob Dobbs: And we interrupt this dissertation on McLuhan to talk about what McLuhan was talking about.
[43:36] Bob Dobbs: The involvingness of all this stuff.
[43:37] Bob Dobbs: We're involved,
[43:38] Bob Dobbs: right?
[43:39] Bob Dobbs: We're drawn into the soap opera of Polly.
[43:43] Bob Dobbs: We're like at work,
[43:44] Bob Dobbs: standing around the cooler,
[43:45] Bob Dobbs: talking about last night's TV.
[43:47] Bob Dobbs: So.
[43:50] Bob Dobbs: We're strictly professional in presenting it this way.
[43:56] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[43:56] Bob Dobbs: let's get back to the tech body.
[43:58] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[43:58] Bob Dobbs: so these quotes,
[43:59] Bob Dobbs: I like that.
[44:00] Bob Dobbs: I had totally forgotten these.
[44:02] Bob Dobbs: Cosmic membrane,
[44:04] Bob Dobbs: cohesive field or membrane,
[44:06] Bob Dobbs: cohesive membrane,
[44:09] Bob Dobbs: Global Membrane of enclosure,
[44:14] Bob Dobbs: Global Membrane,
[44:16] Bob Dobbs: tribal membrane.
[44:19] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[44:19] Bob Dobbs: and tribal membranes.
[44:20] Bob Dobbs: So they,
[44:22] Bob Dobbs: to me,
[44:22] Bob Dobbs: seem singular.
[44:25] Bob Dobbs: Maybe even that's the singularity that everybody thinks they understand.
[44:29] Bob Dobbs: The Global Membrane.
[44:31] Bob Dobbs: You know how people talk about the singularity more and more the last 10 years,
[44:36] Bob Dobbs: as if they know what it is?
[44:38] Bob Dobbs: I would call this implosion a singularity.
[44:43] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[44:44] Cameron McEwen: But see,
[44:46] Cameron McEwen: if the membrane is singular,
[44:51] Cameron McEwen: then it is so only in chronological time.
[44:54] Cameron McEwen: So it's like one membrane.
[44:57] Cameron McEwen: after another,
[44:58] Cameron McEwen: after another,
[44:59] Cameron McEwen: after another.
[45:00] Cameron McEwen: But considering all times,
[45:04] Cameron McEwen: then,
[45:06] Cameron McEwen: of course,
[45:07] Cameron McEwen: the membrane is plural.
[45:09] Cameron McEwen: And in my way of reading McLuhan,
[45:14] Cameron McEwen: which is not chronological but is synchronic,
[45:18] Cameron McEwen: then membrane is naturally plural.
[45:22] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[45:22] Bob Dobbs: Why is there a membrane one after the other?
[45:27] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[45:27] Cameron McEwen: because when you say that it's singular,
[45:30] Cameron McEwen: it can't be singular for all time,
[45:33] Cameron McEwen: right?
[45:34] Cameron McEwen: It has to be,
[45:34] Cameron McEwen: it's,
[45:36] Cameron McEwen: the electricity has wrapped the planet in a single cohesive field.
[45:42] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[45:45] Cameron McEwen: that's a different membrane from the mechanical age,
[45:48] Cameron McEwen: from the Gutenberg Galaxy.
[45:50] Cameron McEwen: And that,
[45:51] Cameron McEwen: again,
[45:51] Cameron McEwen: is different from the
[45:54] Cameron McEwen: Paleolithic.
[45:56] Cameron McEwen: membrane right Global Membrane singular if we can talk about it like that is a moment in time or a period in time like a
[46:10] Cameron McEwen: Marconi age or the
[46:12] Cameron McEwen: Gutenberg age or Gutenberg era well
[46:17] Bob Dobbs: I see the Global Membrane is one space that has no content and that's always there there's only one
[46:26] Bob Dobbs: And it goes out past the moon.
[46:29] Cameron McEwen: Okay.
[46:30] Cameron McEwen: So then if he says electricity has wrapped the planet in a single cohesive field,
[46:37] Cameron McEwen: you read that to say that electricity has illuminated the field that was already there but unseen.
[46:45] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[46:46] Bob Dobbs: And then another,
[46:47] Bob Dobbs: he talks about stretching the nerves to form a Global Membrane.
[46:51] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[46:52] Cameron McEwen: But there,
[46:53] Cameron McEwen: I mean...
[46:55] Cameron McEwen: It would seem that seems like a chronological image.
[47:00] Cameron McEwen: No,
[47:00] Cameron McEwen: not to me.
[47:02] Bob Dobbs: When he says snapped around,
[47:03] Bob Dobbs: look,
[47:04] Bob Dobbs: the cosmic membrane has been snapped around the globe.
[47:07] Bob Dobbs: These are instant,
[47:09] Bob Dobbs: instant effect,
[47:11] Bob Dobbs: instant establishment.
[47:14] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[47:14] Cameron McEwen: but I'm talking about whether or not the instant is the big now or if it's.
[47:24] Cameron McEwen: One instant after another.
[47:25] Cameron McEwen: That's the topic that we're on.
[47:27] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[47:28] Bob Dobbs: I'd say it's beyond now.
[47:31] Bob Dobbs: It's timeless.
[47:32] Bob Dobbs: It's eternity.
[47:35] Bob Dobbs: Externalized,
[47:36] Bob Dobbs: because we can always tap into it,
[47:39] Bob Dobbs: and we can't touch it.
[47:42] Bob Dobbs: We can only be the content for it.
[47:45] Cameron McEwen: So you're saying it's sort of an Asian...
[47:52] Cameron McEwen: topic from
[47:54] Cameron McEwen: Hinduism or Buddhism or something,
[47:58] Cameron McEwen: right?
[47:59] Cameron McEwen: That's what you seem to be saying.
[48:01] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[48:02] Bob Dobbs: Here's an interesting point.
[48:06] Bob Dobbs: I met these people in the 60s out in Seattle,
[48:09] Bob Dobbs: and Dave Worcester channeled what was called Cosmic Awareness.
[48:13] Bob Dobbs: And in the mythology of what they said,
[48:17] Bob Dobbs: there was a unified membrane.
[48:21] Bob Dobbs: They didn't use those words.
[48:23] Bob Dobbs: but then there'd be ripples of experience in consciousness and consciousness was Innis you know plane of essence a place of relative serenity or something and we
[48:38] Bob Dobbs: may not have been animals yet or human bodies so he would describe it that the conscious experience green a ripple of green would go across this membrane then red
[48:52] Bob Dobbs: then blue.
[48:54] Bob Dobbs: So what happens?
[48:55] Cameron McEwen: I can relate to that very much because there you could say that the field of awareness is tactility.
[49:09] Cameron McEwen: But generally,
[49:11] Cameron McEwen: there's only some variety of tactility,
[49:16] Cameron McEwen: right?
[49:16] Cameron McEwen: Red,
[49:17] Cameron McEwen: green,
[49:17] Cameron McEwen: blue,
[49:18] Cameron McEwen: black.
[49:18] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[49:20] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[49:20] Bob Dobbs: well,
[49:20] Bob Dobbs: let me see.
[49:21] Bob Dobbs: So what happened is it was red,
[49:24] Bob Dobbs: and then it went to...
[49:27] Bob Dobbs: green,
[49:28] Bob Dobbs: and a portion of the red held on and did not give up to the green.
[49:34] Bob Dobbs: So the majority of consciousness looked at the resistance in the red,
[49:42] Bob Dobbs: and one part of it smashed the red.
[49:46] Bob Dobbs: I don't know which color I started with,
[49:48] Bob Dobbs: but whatever it was that was holding out was smashed.
[49:53] Bob Dobbs: And that was an action of judgment.
[49:57] Bob Dobbs: This is the way Cosmo Wares talked about it.
[49:59] Bob Dobbs: So the principal,
[50:01] Bob Dobbs: the judger that objected to the holdout by the red,
[50:07] Bob Dobbs: that should have become completely all green,
[50:11] Bob Dobbs: that was called Rhyee,
[50:12] Bob Dobbs: Rhyee,
[50:14] Bob Dobbs: Rhyee.
[50:15] Bob Dobbs: And so
[50:16] Bob Dobbs: Rhyee smashed the holdout,
[50:20] Bob Dobbs: and the rest of the ripple of the new color,
[50:23] Bob Dobbs: red,
[50:25] Bob Dobbs: objected to that.
[50:26] Bob Dobbs: And they chased Rhyee down through levels of density.
[50:33] Bob Dobbs: So
[50:34] Bob Dobbs: Rhyee gets to the end and makes matter as he's going.
[50:39] Bob Dobbs: And then he establishes place here Innis world we call it,
[50:45] Bob Dobbs: Earth or whatever.
[50:46] Bob Dobbs: But it's the beginning of the principalities or separateness.
[50:52] Bob Dobbs: So the plane of essence was...
[50:56] Bob Dobbs: green becoming red,
[50:58] Bob Dobbs: whatever I said,
[50:59] Bob Dobbs: whatever the later development is,
[51:01] Bob Dobbs: they decide to send down a feminine principal to cooperate with Rhyee,
[51:10] Bob Dobbs: and Rhyee wanted to then have children and build up his world he had made there,
[51:15] Bob Dobbs: all in separateness.
[51:16] Bob Dobbs: He had left the ocean of singularity in the plane of essence.
[51:23] Bob Dobbs: The female principal cooperated with the Rhyee,
[51:26] Bob Dobbs: the male,
[51:27] Bob Dobbs: and the plan was eventually to sucker him into it and then get him back.
[51:35] Bob Dobbs: The female principal would seduce him back to the red zone.
[51:40] Bob Dobbs: So some people I've told this story to,
[51:44] Bob Dobbs: and they say,
[51:45] Bob Dobbs: well,
[51:45] Bob Dobbs: that sounds like a Gnostic story.
[51:47] Bob Dobbs: And I think Edgar Cayce,
[51:49] Bob Dobbs: who McLuhan read,
[51:51] Bob Dobbs: he talked about...
[51:53] Bob Dobbs: the matter got created through spirit becoming denser and denser.
[52:00] Bob Dobbs: So it sounds a bit like that.
[52:02] Bob Dobbs: So anyways,
[52:04] Bob Dobbs: Rhyee,
[52:06] Bob Dobbs: according to Cosmic Awareness,
[52:08] Bob Dobbs: a cosmic event happened.
[52:10] Bob Dobbs: In January 67,
[52:12] Bob Dobbs: Rhyee returned to the plane of essence.
[52:15] Bob Dobbs: So no more separateness.
[52:17] Bob Dobbs: So I heard this in the late
[52:19] Bob Dobbs: 60s.
[52:22] Bob Dobbs: What was left were the cobwebs of Rhyee.
[52:26] Bob Dobbs: There were still principalities trying to stay in it.
[52:30] Bob Dobbs: So the physical manifestation of this was the crisis in the gold market in 1968 in London.
[52:38] Bob Dobbs: There was some kind of crisis,
[52:40] Bob Dobbs: and the people with the big bank accounts,
[52:43] Bob Dobbs: like the Rockefellers and Rothschilds,
[52:45] Bob Dobbs: their planning and their timing was thrown off because
[52:52] Bob Dobbs: of the removal of the ground of separateness when
[52:58] Bob Dobbs: Rhyee returned awareness.
[53:00] Bob Dobbs: So when I was reading McLuhan around that time,
[53:03] Bob Dobbs: after I'd heard the story,
[53:06] Bob Dobbs: I thought of the membrane as the condition of end of separateness,
[53:12] Bob Dobbs: the end of principalities.
[53:16] Bob Dobbs: So I thought it was interesting that I could see that.
[53:20] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan,
[53:23] Bob Dobbs: I could use McLuhan to support or fit in or elaborate what
[53:28] Bob Dobbs: Cosmic Warner is saying.
[53:30] Bob Dobbs: And then
[53:30] Bob Dobbs: Theall, talking about it years later with Theall,
[53:32] Bob Dobbs: he pointed out,
[53:33] Bob Dobbs: he said,
[53:34] Bob Dobbs: note how McLuhan used the word cosmic in 55.
[53:37] Bob Dobbs: I think it's in Five Sovereign Fingers,
[53:39] Bob Dobbs: Tax the Breath.
[53:41] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[53:41] Bob Dobbs: one of those inventories of statements by him.
[53:44] Bob Dobbs: And he rarely used the word cosmic,
[53:46] Bob Dobbs: being careful not to get trapped in the Gnostic.
[53:50] Bob Dobbs: image,
[53:51] Bob Dobbs: as a Catholic,
[53:52] Bob Dobbs: I guess.
[53:53] Bob Dobbs: But he used it one time.
[53:54] Bob Dobbs: He said there was a great shift on a cosmic level or cosmic plane.
[53:59] Bob Dobbs: So I always found it interesting that awareness as a medium was original.
[54:05] Bob Dobbs: They were coming up with a different scenario from the normal cliches at New Age mediums channel.
[54:15] Bob Dobbs: Okay?
[54:16] Bob Dobbs: There was a statement of a change.
[54:19] Bob Dobbs: Um...
[54:21] Bob Dobbs: When I got McLuhan to occasionally talk mystical,
[54:24] Bob Dobbs: or talk on this kind of level,
[54:28] Bob Dobbs: that's where the Global Membrane came in.
[54:30] Bob Dobbs: It snapped.
[54:31] Bob Dobbs: When Raya returned to essence,
[54:32] Bob Dobbs: it snapped.
[54:34] Bob Dobbs: What's he have here?
[54:35] Bob Dobbs: Snapped round the globe by the electric dilation of our very senses.
[54:39] Bob Dobbs: So anyways,
[54:40] Bob Dobbs: it's just a,
[54:41] Bob Dobbs: for me,
[54:42] Bob Dobbs: a happy fluke that I came across this obscure little group that had these odd concepts,
[54:48] Bob Dobbs: and they resonated for me with...
[54:51] Bob Dobbs: the change that was caused by the Global Membrane.
[54:55] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[54:55] Cameron McEwen: but when you see,
[55:01] Cameron McEwen: if the membrane has different forms,
[55:04] Cameron McEwen: if it can snap,
[55:06] Cameron McEwen: if it can change its form or have a story like figures coming in and going back to it and all that sort of stuff,
[55:19] Cameron McEwen: then...
[55:21] Cameron McEwen: membrane is not some sort of cloud of unknowing it's a structure and it's a structure that is has changeable forms so
[55:38] Bob Dobbs: I see it as a structure but I don't see the changeable forms the content how can it snap how can it snap if it doesn't have
[55:48] Cameron McEwen: changeable form.
[55:50] Bob Dobbs: No,
[55:51] Bob Dobbs: it just does.
[55:52] Bob Dobbs: It's a nebulous world.
[55:55] Bob Dobbs: It is what it is.
[55:56] Cameron McEwen: That's a great Explorations.
[55:59] Bob Dobbs: I'm going towards percept.
[56:00] Bob Dobbs: It is what it is.
[56:04] Cameron McEwen: This whole deal really is Gnostic.
[56:08] Cameron McEwen: At the end of the day,
[56:10] Cameron McEwen: the Gnostics always have to come back to the
[56:14] Cameron McEwen: One.
[56:16] Cameron McEwen: And...
[56:17] Bob Dobbs: To the one as a default?
[56:20] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[56:20] Cameron McEwen: of course.
[56:22] Cameron McEwen: Basically,
[56:23] Cameron McEwen: that's all Antigonish is interested in,
[56:25] Cameron McEwen: is the one.
[56:27] Cameron McEwen: As McLuhan says in his review of
[56:31] Cameron McEwen: Kenner book on Lewis,
[56:33] Cameron McEwen: he ends his review by saying,
[56:36] Cameron McEwen: let us go back to the one.
[56:38] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[56:39] Bob Dobbs: and that's why we like Lewis's idea of all-at-onceness.
[56:44] Bob Dobbs: Lewis tried to counter that.
[56:47] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.
[56:48] Bob Dobbs: With the trueness,
[56:49] Bob Dobbs: which is quoted in Cliché to archetype.
[56:52] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[56:53] Cameron McEwen: So for
[56:54] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan,
[56:55] Cameron McEwen: Lewis is the greatest
[56:58] Cameron McEwen: I-E-Y-E thinker.
[57:01] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[57:04] Cameron McEwen: And you can see that in Lewis's art.
[57:07] Cameron McEwen: Lewis's art is very mechanical,
[57:09] Cameron McEwen: very sort of chaotic in a certain way.
[57:14] Cameron McEwen: If you can imagine straight lines being chaotic.
[57:17] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[57:17] Bob Dobbs: have you noticed the bubbles,
[57:22] Bob Dobbs: cellular kind of stuff in Toronto in the early
[57:27] Bob Dobbs: 40s? Have you seen those later paintings?
[57:29] Bob Dobbs: They're different.
[57:32] Bob Dobbs: They're blobular.
[57:32] Cameron McEwen: I don't think I have.
[57:33] Cameron McEwen: I'll have to look that up.
[57:34] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[57:34] Bob Dobbs: look them up,
[57:35] Bob Dobbs: the 40s stuff.
[57:37] Bob Dobbs: He is going through a change during that period anyways because he becomes an internationalist.
[57:43] Bob Dobbs: when he gets back to London.
[57:45] Bob Dobbs: He has a different,
[57:45] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[57:46] Bob Dobbs: the
[57:47] Bob Dobbs: American cosmic man,
[57:48] Bob Dobbs: the global village.
[57:49] Bob Dobbs: So he's not thinking the same as he did in the
[57:53] Bob Dobbs: 30s. But the painting reflects something.
[57:56] Bob Dobbs: In a way,
[57:57] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[57:57] Bob Dobbs: he's losing that mechanical hard edge.
[58:01] Bob Dobbs: They're like blurry bubbles.
[58:03] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[58:03] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[58:03] Cameron McEwen: he's losing his eyesight at that time.
[58:06] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[58:06] Bob Dobbs: that's right.
[58:06] Bob Dobbs: He's going blind,
[58:07] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[58:08] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[58:08] Bob Dobbs: actually,
[58:09] Bob Dobbs: he's not.
[58:11] Bob Dobbs: Unless that went on for 10,
[58:12] Bob Dobbs: 20 years,
[58:13] Bob Dobbs: I don't know when it started.
[58:14] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[58:15] Cameron McEwen: it must have been a gradual thing over decades.
[58:18] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[58:18] Bob Dobbs: But,
[58:18] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[58:19] Bob Dobbs: he really got blind by 50,
[58:20] Bob Dobbs: 51 or so.
[58:21] Bob Dobbs: That's when he couldn't see anymore.
[58:23] Bob Dobbs: But this is 10 years before,
[58:25] Bob Dobbs: 41.
[58:26] Bob Dobbs: But,
[58:26] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[58:27] Bob Dobbs: maybe that's what's going on.
[58:30] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[58:31] Cameron McEwen: I'm not trying to reduce it to that.
[58:33] Cameron McEwen: I'm just saying that's probably an aspect.
[58:36] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[58:37] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[58:37] Bob Dobbs: so we're...
[58:40] Bob Dobbs: We brought up Lewis,
[58:41] Bob Dobbs: oh yes,
[58:42] Bob Dobbs: with the Tunis.
[58:42] Bob Dobbs: So,
[58:43] Bob Dobbs: the digital,
[58:44] Bob Dobbs: the overlay of the Android Meme,
[58:47] Bob Dobbs: which allows this digital autonomy where you can get out of the oneness of the
[58:52] Bob Dobbs: 50s Global Membrane,
[58:54] Bob Dobbs: and maybe you'd include satellite and computer,
[58:57] Bob Dobbs: analog satellite and computer in the 50s and 60s as not digital.
[59:04] Bob Dobbs: So,
[59:04] Bob Dobbs: the digital allows you to...
[59:06] Bob Dobbs: Then you can start having different Global Membrane because you could go off and create a conference call with 100 people,
[59:15] Bob Dobbs: right?
[59:16] Bob Dobbs: You've still got...
[59:17] Cameron McEwen: Now you're saying that,
[59:19] Cameron McEwen: oh,
[59:19] Cameron McEwen: maybe membrane is plural.
[59:21] Bob Dobbs: No,
[59:21] Bob Dobbs: no,
[59:21] Bob Dobbs: with the digital,
[59:23] Bob Dobbs: you get out of the...
[59:26] Bob Dobbs: paralytic cosmic membrane that's only in the TV era.
[59:31] Cameron McEwen: Oh,
[59:31] Cameron McEwen: so you don't have a membrane anymore.
[59:34] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[59:34] Bob Dobbs: that's why I call that period,
[59:37] Bob Dobbs: which is the Kroker Quadrant on my chart,
[59:39] Bob Dobbs: 14.
[59:40] Bob Dobbs: There's the one of the Global Membrane,
[59:43] Bob Dobbs: the TV era,
[59:44] Bob Dobbs: and then the digital allows you to go off into autonomous different spaces,
[59:49] Bob Dobbs: which I call quadrophrenia.
[59:52] Bob Dobbs: So the four is now...
[59:54] Bob Dobbs: Overlaid parallel to the one that's what my what I mean by by
[1:00:00] Bob Dobbs: 14 whereas the Global Membrane is in the 2 2 in the McLuhan quadrant which is 47 to 57 1957 the ratios
[1:00:11] Bob Dobbs: 2 is the 2 is the BC is the D that is maybe the Global Membrane
[1:00:19] Bob Dobbs: But if that 2 2 gets collapsed into one
[1:00:24] Bob Dobbs: When you bring in the digital,
[1:00:25] Bob Dobbs: and then the 2-2 also becomes the 4.
[1:00:29] Bob Dobbs: I don't know which way it goes.
[1:00:30] Bob Dobbs: I mean,
[1:00:32] Bob Dobbs: tactility,
[1:00:32] Bob Dobbs: it goes,
[1:00:33] Bob Dobbs: as Baklout said,
[1:00:34] Bob Dobbs: I may have got that backwards,
[1:00:36] Bob Dobbs: but it goes either way.
[1:00:38] Bob Dobbs: So
[1:00:40] Bob Dobbs: 1-4 is an icon for me of the meaning of the new digital autonomy.
[1:00:46] Bob Dobbs: And people can create different spaces.
[1:00:48] Bob Dobbs: Paranoia,
[1:00:50] Bob Dobbs: hysteria,
[1:00:52] Bob Dobbs: panic.
[1:00:52] Cameron McEwen: Ecstasy.
[1:00:53] Bob Dobbs: ecstasy and schizophrenia.
[1:00:57] Bob Dobbs: And you know what?
[1:00:58] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if you know Mini Max.
[1:01:00] Bob Dobbs: Do you know Mini Max or Brian Taylor?
[1:01:02] Bob Dobbs: Have you ever interacted with him?
[1:01:05] Cameron McEwen: No.
[1:01:05] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[1:01:06] Cameron McEwen: I've heard the name Brian Taylor,
[1:01:08] Cameron McEwen: but I don't know.
[1:01:09] Bob Dobbs: So he found a cartoon,
[1:01:11] Bob Dobbs: and he added these words to it.
[1:01:14] Bob Dobbs: It has Jesus.
[1:01:15] Bob Dobbs: I think it's a modern character,
[1:01:17] Bob Dobbs: but it's taken from Jesus,
[1:01:19] Bob Dobbs: one of his sermons.
[1:01:21] Bob Dobbs: And the guy says,
[1:01:22] Bob Dobbs: it's not fun.
[1:01:23] Bob Dobbs: fear people.
[1:01:24] Bob Dobbs: It's not fear that we have to fear.
[1:01:26] Bob Dobbs: It is paranoia,
[1:01:27] Bob Dobbs: schizophrenia,
[1:01:28] Bob Dobbs: hysteria,
[1:01:30] Bob Dobbs: panic,
[1:01:30] Bob Dobbs: and then ecstasy.
[1:01:34] Bob Dobbs: I said,
[1:01:34] Bob Dobbs: that's exactly my point.
[1:01:36] Bob Dobbs: It's not,
[1:01:36] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:01:37] Bob Dobbs: we have to fear fear.
[1:01:38] Bob Dobbs: It's not the case now.
[1:01:40] Bob Dobbs: We got it.
[1:01:40] Bob Dobbs: We got five realms here.
[1:01:43] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[1:01:44] Bob Dobbs: Paranoia,
[1:01:44] Bob Dobbs: and they're put on.
[1:01:45] Bob Dobbs: People act paranoid.
[1:01:47] Bob Dobbs: They act schizophrenic.
[1:01:49] Bob Dobbs: They act hysterical,
[1:01:50] Bob Dobbs: and they panic,
[1:01:51] Bob Dobbs: and then they have ecstasy.
[1:01:55] Bob Dobbs: Those are the conditions of autonomy.
[1:01:56] Bob Dobbs: And I spelled this out in my essay,
[1:01:58] Bob Dobbs: Up the Orphic Anti,
[1:01:59] Cameron McEwen: in 1995.
[1:02:02] Cameron McEwen: Those five states must correspond to the five bodies.
[1:02:06] Bob Dobbs: The five what?
[1:02:07] Cameron McEwen: The five bodies.
[1:02:09] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[1:02:09] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[1:02:09] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[1:02:11] Bob Dobbs: The bodies don't have to be that state,
[1:02:12] Bob Dobbs: but I overlaid.
[1:02:13] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:02:14] Bob Dobbs: that's what the chart is.
[1:02:16] Bob Dobbs: You've got the holeopathic environment.
[1:02:19] Bob Dobbs: Holeopathic is my term for the membrane.
[1:02:22] Bob Dobbs: Because remember,
[1:02:23] Bob Dobbs: the satellites create the effect of the hologram through the word that makes the market.
[1:02:31] Bob Dobbs: So the news gets quite doing more with less in the
[1:02:38] Bob Dobbs: 70s and 80s before you get the digital cable and the spinning off and all kinds of new sources.
[1:02:44] Bob Dobbs: But in that period where the satellites have fully blossomed and you've got the percentage of marriage.
[1:02:51] Bob Dobbs: And then people are living inside the Global Membrane,
[1:02:54] Bob Dobbs: which is expressed by the word that makes a market at the White House.
[1:03:00] Bob Dobbs: That keeps shrinking and tightening and becoming more membrane.
[1:03:05] Bob Dobbs: You could say more oneness.
[1:03:09] Bob Dobbs: That's the holeopathic principle.
[1:03:11] Bob Dobbs: Hologram going through holeopathic shrinkage.
[1:03:15] Bob Dobbs: And so I had holeopathic radio slash satellite.
[1:03:20] Bob Dobbs: The ground is satellite.
[1:03:21] Bob Dobbs: Holeopathic radio is the figure.
[1:03:24] Bob Dobbs: So you've got holeopathic radio,
[1:03:27] Bob Dobbs: and that is paranoia.
[1:03:29] Bob Dobbs: Holeopathic TV is schizophrenia.
[1:03:33] Bob Dobbs: And then I have different astral bodies from Theosophy in each quadrant.
[1:03:39] Bob Dobbs: Then I have
[1:03:40] Bob Dobbs: Bob's five bodies.
[1:03:41] Bob Dobbs: So I'm overlaying all the different columns across each quadrant.
[1:03:47] Bob Dobbs: And that's where you get your synchrony.
[1:03:50] Bob Dobbs: or synchronic.
[1:03:53] Cameron McEwen: Listeners should observe how your mind is a narrative mind.
[1:04:01] Cameron McEwen: You like to think in terms of stories.
[1:04:03] Cameron McEwen: You like to think in terms of mythologies,
[1:04:08] Cameron McEwen: if you will.
[1:04:11] Bob Dobbs: But I like to give examples.
[1:04:15] Bob Dobbs: I don't want to just have an abstract word.
[1:04:19] Cameron McEwen: Okay.
[1:04:19] Cameron McEwen: examples of
[1:04:21] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:04:22] Bob Dobbs: stories.
[1:04:22] Bob Dobbs: Stories are examples.
[1:04:27] Bob Dobbs: I like to try to make it understandable.
[1:04:32] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:04:33] Cameron McEwen: yeah,
[1:04:34] Cameron McEwen: but there's more going on there.
[1:04:37] Cameron McEwen: You're trying to make things understandable for people that are listening,
[1:04:43] Cameron McEwen: but you are also working on your own understanding.
[1:04:50] Bob Dobbs: You could say my own subjectivity.
[1:04:54] Cameron McEwen: I guess so,
[1:04:54] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[1:04:55] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:04:57] Cameron McEwen: You like to listen to bizarre stuff.
[1:05:02] Cameron McEwen: No,
[1:05:03] Cameron McEwen: you always have done that,
[1:05:04] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:05:05] Cameron McEwen: From when you were on the radio in Toronto.
[1:05:10] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:05:12] Cameron McEwen: Conspiracy theories or...
[1:05:15] Bob Dobbs: I like to listen to people's interesting subjective stories.
[1:05:19] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.
[1:05:20] Cameron McEwen: And it can be theology like the Armstrongs.
[1:05:25] Cameron McEwen: You don't care what it is.
[1:05:26] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[1:05:27] Bob Dobbs: It's all phatic phatic communion to me.
[1:05:32] Cameron McEwen: But the way your mind works is that you like to think along with people.
[1:05:39] Cameron McEwen: But then,
[1:05:40] Cameron McEwen: a little bit like McLuhan,
[1:05:42] Cameron McEwen: you take it further than they did.
[1:05:44] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[1:05:46] Bob Dobbs: I start making...
[1:05:47] Bob Dobbs: principles,
[1:05:47] Bob Dobbs: theories,
[1:05:48] Bob Dobbs: laws,
[1:05:48] Bob Dobbs: and conclusions about it.
[1:05:54] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:05:54] Bob Dobbs: that's what people,
[1:05:55] Bob Dobbs: they used to say I was a great listener because I would go along and listen to their unique story,
[1:05:59] Bob Dobbs: and then I'd make a meaning out of it that they'd never thought of,
[1:06:03] Bob Dobbs: you know what I mean?
[1:06:04] Bob Dobbs: So they'd be flattered that I came up with a big insight from it,
[1:06:07] Bob Dobbs: but that's my ability to find patterns in any story anybody presents to me.
[1:06:15] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:06:15] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:06:15] Cameron McEwen: that's you.
[1:06:16] Cameron McEwen: Excuse me,
[1:06:17] Cameron McEwen: that's your preferred way of finding patterns and of formulating patterns,
[1:06:23] Cameron McEwen: I must say.
[1:06:24] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:06:25] Cameron McEwen: So,
[1:06:28] Cameron McEwen: when I,
[1:06:29] Cameron McEwen: excuse me,
[1:06:31] Cameron McEwen: in my old age,
[1:06:31] Cameron McEwen: I'm having trouble with my throat here.
[1:06:33] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:06:36] Bob Dobbs: spit up.
[1:06:37] Bob Dobbs: You can go spit.
[1:06:38] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:06:38] Cameron McEwen: no,
[1:06:39] Cameron McEwen: I'm fine now.
[1:06:40] Cameron McEwen: I don't know what was a brief disturbance.
[1:06:45] Cameron McEwen: in the Global Membrane.
[1:06:49] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[1:06:49] Bob Dobbs: it's rather schizophrenic.
[1:06:54] Cameron McEwen: But that highlights the difference that we always have between your diachronic or chronological way of proceeding and my attempts to find the synchronic laws
[1:07:08] Cameron McEwen: or structures that are behind all this.
[1:07:11] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:07:11] Bob Dobbs: I think that I'm doing that,
[1:07:13] Bob Dobbs: but...
[1:07:13] Bob Dobbs: It doesn't come across that way to you.
[1:07:19] Bob Dobbs: You call it narrative.
[1:07:21] Bob Dobbs: I'm certainly aware of the synchronic overlays or the big now and the collage and the assemblage.
[1:07:29] Cameron McEwen: But you're always tempted to say,
[1:07:31] Cameron McEwen: oh,
[1:07:31] Cameron McEwen: that was 1985 or that was 1957 or 63.
[1:07:37] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:07:39] Bob Dobbs: that's to evoke moods,
[1:07:41] Bob Dobbs: content.
[1:07:43] Bob Dobbs: to make people remember the music,
[1:07:45] Bob Dobbs: the texture of that period.
[1:07:47] Bob Dobbs: That's painting.
[1:07:52] Bob Dobbs: I'm massaging the person's brain and evoking different moods.
[1:07:59] Bob Dobbs: So to me,
[1:08:00] Bob Dobbs: 47 to 57,
[1:08:02] Bob Dobbs: definite atmosphere,
[1:08:03] Bob Dobbs: definite mood,
[1:08:05] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:08:06] Bob Dobbs: 57 to 67,
[1:08:07] Bob Dobbs: completely in media content.
[1:08:11] Bob Dobbs: I have a good memory of what went on,
[1:08:13] Bob Dobbs: and most people do when they're listening to music.
[1:08:15] Bob Dobbs: They remember everything while they're listening,
[1:08:17] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:08:18] Bob Dobbs: But they're not too good at talking about it when the music's not happening.
[1:08:23] Bob Dobbs: They run out of memory,
[1:08:26] Bob Dobbs: instant memory.
[1:08:29] Bob Dobbs: But my alibi is,
[1:08:31] Bob Dobbs: of course,
[1:08:32] Bob Dobbs: the Android Meme,
[1:08:33] Bob Dobbs: the chart,
[1:08:34] Bob Dobbs: is visual because it's a piece of paper.
[1:08:37] Bob Dobbs: It is fragmented.
[1:08:38] Bob Dobbs: And that's...
[1:08:39] Bob Dobbs: That's the bias of it,
[1:08:40] Bob Dobbs: and I point out the bias,
[1:08:41] Bob Dobbs: and I say this is nowhere what the Android Meme looks like.
[1:08:45] Bob Dobbs: But it's a way McLuhan said to
[1:08:49] Bob Dobbs: Richard, whatever that young guy,
[1:08:51] Bob Dobbs: Kostelanetz,
[1:08:52] Bob Dobbs: he says,
[1:08:53] Bob Dobbs: people need concepts to get a grip on reality.
[1:08:56] Bob Dobbs: So
[1:08:56] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan had to put up with people interpreting,
[1:09:00] Bob Dobbs: reading,
[1:09:00] Bob Dobbs: understanding media,
[1:09:01] Bob Dobbs: and getting concepts out of it.
[1:09:03] Bob Dobbs: They didn't get the percept level,
[1:09:05] Bob Dobbs: not right away.
[1:09:06] Bob Dobbs: Unless they did some in-depth repetition and re-read the stuff and started to notice it more.
[1:09:13] Bob Dobbs: So
[1:09:14] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan threw out concepts because people took it that way.
[1:09:18] Bob Dobbs: They had to,
[1:09:19] Bob Dobbs: to get a grip on reality.
[1:09:22] Bob Dobbs: I'm throwing out a picture of the Android Meme.
[1:09:24] Bob Dobbs: It's a picture for visually biased people.
[1:09:29] Cameron McEwen: And so is that the topic that we're on?
[1:09:32] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:09:33] Bob Dobbs: that's always a topic.
[1:09:36] Cameron McEwen: Okay,
[1:09:36] Cameron McEwen: well,
[1:09:38] Cameron McEwen: so why don't you talk a little bit then about the relationship between Membrane and Android Meme?
[1:09:47] Bob Dobbs: All right,
[1:09:48] Bob Dobbs: let's see.
[1:09:49] Bob Dobbs: That's what we're trying to get to here.
[1:09:52] Bob Dobbs: because I'm going into the meme.
[1:09:58] Bob Dobbs: So I'm explaining the breakup of tactility on page 77,
[1:10:05] Bob Dobbs: and I'll just restate.
[1:10:06] Bob Dobbs: Meanwhile,
[1:10:06] Bob Dobbs: the abrasive confrontational aspects of tactility surfed over the old discarnate merge-slash-interrupting surfaces.
[1:10:15] Bob Dobbs: This evoked the dominance of the neoconservative liberal meme or preference.
[1:10:20] Bob Dobbs: in the Global Membrane of the last 35 years.
[1:10:23] Bob Dobbs: Not knowing this aspect of McLuhan tactility led to a discounting of McLuhan relevance on a theoretical level for educational purposes.
[1:10:33] Bob Dobbs: People didn't think there was theory in there.
[1:10:37] Bob Dobbs: So I say,
[1:10:40] Bob Dobbs: I won't go into the pastoral global village,
[1:10:42] Bob Dobbs: people know that.
[1:10:45] Bob Dobbs: So I say,
[1:10:45] Bob Dobbs: making a long narrative short,
[1:10:48] Bob Dobbs: Most of the 20th century can be understood as the analog media phase of involuntary ESP.
[1:10:54] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan is here talking about the analog media phase culminating in the global theater.
[1:11:02] Bob Dobbs: Then I quote McLuhan saying electronics as ESP.
[1:11:06] Bob Dobbs: Then I said McLuhan is not wrong,
[1:11:07] Bob Dobbs: he's just incomplete today.
[1:11:09] Bob Dobbs: One has to deeply understand McLuhan ramifications of a cool medium first.
[1:11:14] Bob Dobbs: First,
[1:11:15] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan explained the phase of our tools shaping us.
[1:11:18] Bob Dobbs: We are now well into the second phase,
[1:11:20] Bob Dobbs: the Android Meme phase,
[1:11:21] Bob Dobbs: of our tools aping us.
[1:11:24] Bob Dobbs: What they used to call artificial intelligence,
[1:11:26] Bob Dobbs: a horseless buggy kind of nomenclature.
[1:11:31] Bob Dobbs: Let's see,
[1:11:31] Bob Dobbs: in the blue part.
[1:11:33] Bob Dobbs: The point is that the internet brought out the fact that media aped us,
[1:11:37] Bob Dobbs: because the Android Meme started to look like people,
[1:11:39] Bob Dobbs: thanks to the new graphic user interface.
[1:11:42] Bob Dobbs: They were no longer reading text,
[1:11:44] Bob Dobbs: they were talking cartoons on your computer.
[1:11:48] Bob Dobbs: So it's,
[1:11:49] Bob Dobbs: they were talking cartoons on your computer,
[1:11:51] Bob Dobbs: I think is the way to say it.
[1:11:52] Bob Dobbs: So it's aping us,
[1:11:53] Bob Dobbs: no longer shaping.
[1:11:55] Bob Dobbs: I keep pointing this out and nobody gets it.
[1:11:57] Bob Dobbs: Nobody gets the significance of the fact that the ender meme was aping us,
[1:12:00] Bob Dobbs: different from shaping us.
[1:12:04] Bob Dobbs: Then I quote the album,
[1:12:06] Bob Dobbs: We Shapered.
[1:12:07] Cameron McEwen: Before we go too far here,
[1:12:09] Cameron McEwen: let's go back to the black paragraph immediately above that.
[1:12:14] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:12:14] Cameron McEwen: You say that...
[1:12:16] Cameron McEwen: what they used to call artificial intelligence,
[1:12:19] Cameron McEwen: a horseless buggy kind of nomenclature.
[1:12:22] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:12:23] Cameron McEwen: I don't understand that in the sense that artificial intelligence is very much a word of the day,
[1:12:33] Cameron McEwen: and calling it a horseless buggy kind of nomenclature seems like an interesting idea.
[1:12:45] Cameron McEwen: But it needs to be teased out some.
[1:12:48] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:12:48] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[1:12:49] Cameron McEwen: How do you get that?
[1:12:51] Bob Dobbs: First of all,
[1:12:52] Bob Dobbs: I'll just say the Android Meme is not artificial.
[1:12:58] Bob Dobbs: To call it artificial intelligence,
[1:13:00] Bob Dobbs: it's pattern recognition and it's a living force.
[1:13:04] Cameron McEwen: So let me,
[1:13:06] Cameron McEwen: I'll just interject from time to time and you can tell me if I'm Wright wrong.
[1:13:10] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:13:11] Cameron McEwen: What you seem to be saying there is that artificial intelligence.
[1:13:16] Cameron McEwen: is a horse's buggy kind of nomenclature because we've gone beyond what we used to understand as artificial.
[1:13:24] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:13:26] Cameron McEwen: So we have to get rid of artificial or at least complexify it.
[1:13:33] Cameron McEwen: And we have to do the same thing with intelligence.
[1:13:36] Cameron McEwen: And unless we complexify those two things and then bring them together in an even more complex way,
[1:13:43] Cameron McEwen: then we're not going to understand what the Android Meme is.
[1:13:46] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[1:13:46] Bob Dobbs: And you definitely won't get to the tech body.
[1:13:51] Bob Dobbs: So you see,
[1:13:52] Bob Dobbs: this is what's interesting on the Medium as a Massage album.
[1:13:55] Bob Dobbs: They say,
[1:14:01] Bob Dobbs: I think they first say,
[1:14:03] Bob Dobbs: no,
[1:14:03] Bob Dobbs: I have the time here.
[1:14:05] Bob Dobbs: You first hear somebody say,
[1:14:07] Bob Dobbs: we shape our tools and thereafter our tools ape us.
[1:14:10] Bob Dobbs: Then later,
[1:14:11] Bob Dobbs: it's reset,
[1:14:12] Bob Dobbs: but...
[1:14:13] Bob Dobbs: it's we shape our tools and thereafter our tools shape us.
[1:14:16] Bob Dobbs: The shaping is more what people understand about the medium massaging us.
[1:14:20] Bob Dobbs: But the aping us is the beginning of the creation of the Android Meme,
[1:14:25] Bob Dobbs: which is going to be an organic thing that's left Posthuman.
[1:14:32] Bob Dobbs: It becomes its anti-environment that is,
[1:14:37] Bob Dobbs: as he says in 68,
[1:14:39] Bob Dobbs: which is the right time to say because it's after
[1:14:41] Bob Dobbs: Rhyee is returned to essence in 67.
[1:14:45] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:14:45] Bob Dobbs: when he talks about the cobwebs of Rhyee,
[1:14:50] Bob Dobbs: that is the schizophrenia,
[1:14:51] Bob Dobbs: those five things.
[1:14:53] Bob Dobbs: And that becomes string theory.
[1:14:57] Cameron McEwen: But you see how you like to have a year.
[1:15:00] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:15:01] Bob Dobbs: that's when it happened.
[1:15:02] Cameron McEwen: He has to get 67 and 68 in it.
[1:15:05] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:15:05] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[1:15:07] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:15:07] Bob Dobbs: 68 is 67.
[1:15:09] Bob Dobbs: But he wrote it in 67,
[1:15:12] Bob Dobbs: and the book comes out in 68.
[1:15:14] Bob Dobbs: But it's right at that point where he announces that the anti-environment organic and alive.
[1:15:21] Bob Dobbs: He did not say that earlier.
[1:15:22] Bob Dobbs: Maybe some obscure place once,
[1:15:24] Bob Dobbs: but he says it in the Playboy interview,
[1:15:27] Bob Dobbs: and he says it in...
[1:15:29] Bob Dobbs: in warm peace in the gold villas so there's a new shift um i'm i'm noticing McLuhan shift through the different phases remember i told you he gets ill at every new technology um so i'll give a date so you'll know when he got sick but
[1:15:45] Bob Dobbs: it's all right it's when it could have been 1922 if the television came in and then you know it happened then he's responding anti-environment and you help people locate it.
[1:15:57] Bob Dobbs: by giving a date of when television came in,
[1:16:00] Bob Dobbs: and that's when the shift happened.
[1:16:02] Bob Dobbs: So it's just helping people,
[1:16:05] Bob Dobbs: visually biased people,
[1:16:06] Bob Dobbs: get a grip on what's happening here.
[1:16:09] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[1:16:11] Cameron McEwen: You see,
[1:16:13] Cameron McEwen: when you talk about a new kind of organic,
[1:16:21] Cameron McEwen: an old kind of organic is breaking down,
[1:16:25] Cameron McEwen: a new kind of
[1:16:26] Cameron McEwen: organic is evolving.
[1:16:29] Bob Dobbs: Emerging.
[1:16:32] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:16:32] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[1:16:33] Cameron McEwen: to me,
[1:16:33] Cameron McEwen: what's interesting there is that you're insisting a little bit like the Cambridge English School,
[1:16:43] Cameron McEwen: that words never have meaning alone.
[1:16:47] Cameron McEwen: They only have meaning in context.
[1:16:50] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[1:16:50] Cameron McEwen: And the context changes.
[1:16:54] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:16:54] Cameron McEwen: And the words
[1:16:55] Cameron McEwen: change along with them.
[1:16:58] Cameron McEwen: But words are not just things that are in the air or that are on paper.
[1:17:06] Cameron McEwen: Words are in relation to things.
[1:17:13] Cameron McEwen: And the things that are changing with the word organic is
[1:17:22] Cameron McEwen: what we understand about ourselves and what we understand about the world.
[1:17:29] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[1:17:29] Cameron McEwen: Does that make sense?
[1:17:32] Bob Dobbs: I'm not sure.
[1:17:33] Bob Dobbs: I don't have a problem with the words,
[1:17:35] Bob Dobbs: but we're trying to get you to get me.
[1:17:38] Bob Dobbs: I'm not trying to understand you.
[1:17:40] Cameron McEwen: No,
[1:17:40] Cameron McEwen: no,
[1:17:41] Cameron McEwen: exactly.
[1:17:42] Cameron McEwen: So if I say,
[1:17:44] Cameron McEwen: does that make sense,
[1:17:45] Cameron McEwen: I'm not talking about in some sort of absolute sense,
[1:17:50] Cameron McEwen: and I'm not talking in terms of...
[1:17:53] Cameron McEwen: my blog or something.
[1:17:55] Cameron McEwen: I'm trying to say,
[1:17:56] Cameron McEwen: does it make sense in terms of what you're saying?
[1:18:00] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:18:01] Bob Dobbs: okay,
[1:18:01] Bob Dobbs: say it again.
[1:18:02] Bob Dobbs: You're talking about different words and there are shifts.
[1:18:06] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:18:06] Cameron McEwen: well,
[1:18:06] Cameron McEwen: I'm saying you were talking about a new kind of organic.
[1:18:14] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:18:15] Cameron McEwen: And what I hear you saying there is that the old reference
[1:18:22] Cameron McEwen: of organic.
[1:18:24] Cameron McEwen: The old,
[1:18:25] Cameron McEwen: both the context of organic and what organic meant within that context,
[1:18:34] Cameron McEwen: those things are both dissolving or imploding.
[1:18:39] Cameron McEwen: And we have to understand organic in a whole new way.
[1:18:45] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[1:18:45] Bob Dobbs: because there's a anti-environment that makes up the organic.
[1:18:49] Bob Dobbs: Something's been added to it.
[1:18:53] Cameron McEwen: Added or replaced?
[1:18:56] Bob Dobbs: Infused.
[1:18:58] Bob Dobbs: And imminence.
[1:18:59] Bob Dobbs: You know that
[1:19:00] Bob Dobbs: I-M-M-A-N-E-N-C-E? Yeah.
[1:19:04] Bob Dobbs: Imminence,
[1:19:04] Bob Dobbs: pervasiveness.
[1:19:06] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:19:07] Bob Dobbs: the world with satellites around it by 1970 is different from 1920.
[1:19:13] Bob Dobbs: So a new color,
[1:19:14] Bob Dobbs: a new music has been added to the electric mix.
[1:19:18] Bob Dobbs: So that shifts a lot of things.
[1:19:21] Bob Dobbs: And the implosion and interacting of things becoming information is a way of saying they become alive.
[1:19:33] Bob Dobbs: Because by the late 60s...
[1:19:35] Bob Dobbs: The anti-environment are ethereal.
[1:19:37] Bob Dobbs: They're interplaying,
[1:19:38] Bob Dobbs: and it's dancing on the same spot.
[1:19:43] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[1:19:45] Bob Dobbs: But you see,
[1:19:46] Cameron McEwen: what I'm trying to get at,
[1:19:49] Cameron McEwen: Bob,
[1:19:49] Cameron McEwen: is that when you talk about something coming alive,
[1:19:55] Cameron McEwen: that cannot,
[1:20:00] Cameron McEwen: I think,
[1:20:01] Cameron McEwen: be understood in terms of...
[1:20:05] Cameron McEwen: what we know or what we used to know about being alive.
[1:20:09] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:20:09] Cameron McEwen: Something alive is being cached in a different way here.
[1:20:15] Bob Dobbs: Yep.
[1:20:16] Cameron McEwen: So if you understand coming alive in the old sense of being alive,
[1:20:25] Cameron McEwen: then what you think of is Frankenstein on the table.
[1:20:32] Cameron McEwen: with Dr.
[1:20:32] Cameron McEwen: Frankenstein trying to use lightning to bring them alive,
[1:20:39] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:20:40] Cameron McEwen: That's the old sense of alive.
[1:20:44] Cameron McEwen: And so there's a new sense of alive being talked about here.
[1:20:48] Cameron McEwen: And the difficulty is that you have to use words to talk about this stuff.
[1:20:57] Cameron McEwen: And you have to talk to an audience that has
[1:21:03] Cameron McEwen: different pictures in their mind,
[1:21:05] Cameron McEwen: like Dr.
[1:21:06] Cameron McEwen: Frankenstein,
[1:21:07] Cameron McEwen: but what's really at stake is the sort of the elasticity of the word alive and new shapes
[1:21:23] Cameron McEwen: are being exposed in that elasticity there.
[1:21:28] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[1:21:29] Bob Dobbs: so it seems to me to say this.
[1:21:33] Bob Dobbs: The separatenesses,
[1:21:36] Bob Dobbs: the blurring of what people thought was animate and inanimate.
[1:21:41] Bob Dobbs: And you see this in the popular culture.
[1:21:42] Bob Dobbs: People start taking drugs,
[1:21:44] Bob Dobbs: different psychedelic drugs,
[1:21:47] Bob Dobbs: and they think
[1:21:48] Bob Dobbs: Gaia is alive.
[1:21:50] Bob Dobbs: They think nature is alive,
[1:21:51] Bob Dobbs: and they have all this excitement,
[1:21:53] Bob Dobbs: new insights.
[1:21:54] Bob Dobbs: And I would say that is conceptualizing the merger of satellite computers and television and radio.
[1:22:03] Bob Dobbs: which homeopathizes,
[1:22:06] Bob Dobbs: shrinks,
[1:22:07] Bob Dobbs: miniaturizes.
[1:22:09] Bob Dobbs: So
[1:22:10] Bob Dobbs: I would just go back to the phrase,
[1:22:11] Bob Dobbs: the walls break down.
[1:22:14] Bob Dobbs: There's less separateness in the images that people had and were created by literacy.
[1:22:22] Bob Dobbs: Like there's a tree out there,
[1:22:24] Bob Dobbs: or there's nature.
[1:22:25] Bob Dobbs: And
[1:22:26] Bob Dobbs: I can read about the categories of nature in a book.
[1:22:29] Bob Dobbs: So that creates a separateness.
[1:22:32] Bob Dobbs: Remember,
[1:22:32] Bob Dobbs: he does say the printing press creates a split between the head and the heart,
[1:22:36] Bob Dobbs: so there's a lot of fragmentation going on.
[1:22:39] Bob Dobbs: But then it suddenly flips into the implosion of analog electricity,
[1:22:43] Bob Dobbs: and then the digital even makes it more intense.
[1:22:47] Bob Dobbs: So I would say the all-at-onceness is a misplaced concrete.
[1:22:56] Bob Dobbs: You start to think objects are disappearing or merging.
[1:23:02] Bob Dobbs: So people don't know what is wheatgrass anymore.
[1:23:10] Bob Dobbs: They start thinking,
[1:23:12] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:23:14] Bob Dobbs: what's that,
[1:23:14] Bob Dobbs: Starbucks is wheatgrass.
[1:23:18] Bob Dobbs: The differences between objects and people are melting.
[1:23:24] Bob Dobbs: So the inner becomes the outer and the outer,
[1:23:26] Bob Dobbs: and McLuhan always has different phrases about this,
[1:23:28] Bob Dobbs: the mixture of the inner and the outer.
[1:23:31] Bob Dobbs: the external and the interior,
[1:23:33] Bob Dobbs: that's being blurred by the media mix,
[1:23:37] Bob Dobbs: which is affecting language,
[1:23:38] Bob Dobbs: and then that affects people's concepts and images.
[1:23:42] Bob Dobbs: So it's really showing how much the shaping of us,
[1:23:48] Bob Dobbs: and you get a clue of how we're being shaped by what
[1:23:51] Bob Dobbs: Broadway plays there are,
[1:23:53] Bob Dobbs: what kind of music happens,
[1:23:55] Bob Dobbs: what's happening in sport.
[1:23:56] Bob Dobbs: You look across the board.
[1:23:58] Bob Dobbs: And by 1975,
[1:24:00] Bob Dobbs: everybody's wearing mustaches and sideburns and all that.
[1:24:04] Bob Dobbs: It's a colossal preference that happens.
[1:24:07] Bob Dobbs: Do you know what I mean?
[1:24:08] Bob Dobbs: Or an acceptance of what was not accepted before.
[1:24:13] Bob Dobbs: Like walking around with your slovenly clothes.
[1:24:18] Bob Dobbs: Which,
[1:24:18] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:24:19] Bob Dobbs: I noticed that when I was in L.A.
[1:24:21] Bob Dobbs: in 93.
[1:24:22] Bob Dobbs: When we first moved to the States,
[1:24:23] Bob Dobbs: we were in L.A.
[1:24:24] Bob Dobbs: for six months.
[1:24:25] Bob Dobbs: It was a good stretch of time to be there,
[1:24:27] Bob Dobbs: and because of such a warm climate,
[1:24:30] Bob Dobbs: the slovenliness of people was surprising.
[1:24:35] Bob Dobbs: So I got to experience it for six months,
[1:24:36] Bob Dobbs: just going to the supermarket.
[1:24:38] Bob Dobbs: I didn't get that in Toronto because it's too cold.
[1:24:41] Bob Dobbs: Weather's a little harder.
[1:24:43] Bob Dobbs: But you have people in L.A.,
[1:24:47] Bob Dobbs: we were living Innis,
[1:24:49] Bob Dobbs: that wore the same sweatshirt and sweatpants.
[1:24:52] Bob Dobbs: You'd see them every day for six months.
[1:24:54] Bob Dobbs: They didn't change.
[1:24:56] Bob Dobbs: And you must have experienced that in
[1:24:58] Bob Dobbs: California. Oh,
[1:25:00] Cameron McEwen: sure.
[1:25:00] Cameron McEwen: And sometimes in their bathrobe,
[1:25:02] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:25:03] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:25:04] Cameron McEwen: But what date was that you were there?
[1:25:07] Cameron McEwen: 76,
[1:25:08] Cameron McEwen: did you say?
[1:25:09] Bob Dobbs: No,
[1:25:09] Bob Dobbs: 90.
[1:25:10] Bob Dobbs: We finally left Toronto in
[1:25:12] Bob Dobbs: February 93.
[1:25:13] Bob Dobbs: And we lived in L.A.
[1:25:14] Bob Dobbs: for six months at Jerry Fialka's.
[1:25:17] Bob Dobbs: And then we moved to New York City.
[1:25:19] Bob Dobbs: We were based,
[1:25:21] Bob Dobbs: the operation,
[1:25:21] Bob Dobbs: which was the treatment of AIDS,
[1:25:23] Bob Dobbs: was based in New York on East
[1:25:26] Bob Dobbs: 65th Street.
[1:25:27] Bob Dobbs: And,
[1:25:29] Bob Dobbs: but...
[1:25:29] Bob Dobbs: They wanted us to go,
[1:25:31] Bob Dobbs: or Carolyn to go to L.A.
[1:25:32] Bob Dobbs: to deal with the branch office there first.
[1:25:35] Bob Dobbs: So it was a detour to help the operation in L.A.,
[1:25:39] Bob Dobbs: but we were eventually going to be going to New York.
[1:25:41] Bob Dobbs: And so we got to New York in August after getting to California in February.
[1:25:47] Bob Dobbs: And then we spent 15 years in New York,
[1:25:51] Bob Dobbs: and now we're almost 15 years here.
[1:25:53] Bob Dobbs: We're in our
[1:25:54] Bob Dobbs: 13th, going on our 14th year here.
[1:25:58] Bob Dobbs: And I did 15 years in Toronto,
[1:26:00] Bob Dobbs: 15 years in Halifax.
[1:26:01] Bob Dobbs: This is the way it's been going,
[1:26:04] Bob Dobbs: four quadrants of 15 years in each place.
[1:26:11] Cameron McEwen: So if you're coming up to 15 in Maui,
[1:26:15] Cameron McEwen: does that mean that you're on your way to
[1:26:18] Cameron McEwen: Tibet or something?
[1:26:19] Bob Dobbs: We're on our way to the bunker because the world's going to get real bad shape.
[1:26:25] Bob Dobbs: And the bunker is in a different place.
[1:26:27] Bob Dobbs: It's not on Maui.
[1:26:30] Bob Dobbs: We've already got it locked down.
[1:26:32] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:26:32] Bob Dobbs: I know where we're going.
[1:26:35] Bob Dobbs: So that's...
[1:26:36] Cameron McEwen: How do you...
[1:26:38] Bob Dobbs: What?
[1:26:39] Cameron McEwen: How are you planning on getting there?
[1:26:41] Bob Dobbs: A private plane.
[1:26:43] Bob Dobbs: We have a very supportive team.
[1:26:47] Bob Dobbs: We've got a lot of money behind us.
[1:26:48] Bob Dobbs: I mean,
[1:26:49] Bob Dobbs: the guy that Aion comes through is a billionaire.
[1:26:53] Bob Dobbs: So there's no...
[1:26:54] Bob Dobbs: No problem for autonomy,
[1:26:57] Bob Dobbs: you know what I mean?
[1:26:58] Bob Dobbs: We probably can even bypass the vaccine passport stuff.
[1:27:07] Bob Dobbs: And that's been looming,
[1:27:10] Bob Dobbs: depending on events,
[1:27:12] Bob Dobbs: for six months.
[1:27:16] Bob Dobbs: And I don't know,
[1:27:18] Bob Dobbs: if I'm suddenly not here,
[1:27:21] Bob Dobbs: that's where I went.
[1:27:24] Bob Dobbs: I would eventually get in touch with you,
[1:27:26] Bob Dobbs: but I don't know how strict we are about hiding at first.
[1:27:31] Bob Dobbs: Do you know what I mean?
[1:27:32] Bob Dobbs: So we wouldn't have any online activity.
[1:27:35] Bob Dobbs: We'd be off the grid,
[1:27:36] Bob Dobbs: so to speak.
[1:27:38] Bob Dobbs: And there'd be different reasons why that's going to happen.
[1:27:40] Bob Dobbs: So in our interaction,
[1:27:43] Bob Dobbs: I would eventually,
[1:27:44] Bob Dobbs: I'm pretty sure,
[1:27:45] Bob Dobbs: I've been told,
[1:27:45] Bob Dobbs: we'll eventually be able to resume a little bit after the transition.
[1:27:50] Bob Dobbs: So if I'm gone,
[1:27:51] Bob Dobbs: that's what happened.
[1:27:53] Bob Dobbs: Don't take it personally.
[1:27:54] Bob Dobbs: I'll be back.
[1:28:00] Bob Dobbs: I didn't unfriend you.
[1:28:04] Bob Dobbs: Anyways,
[1:28:05] Bob Dobbs: back to this.
[1:28:06] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:28:07] Bob Dobbs: so this organic blur,
[1:28:11] Bob Dobbs: mixing up of boundaries.
[1:28:13] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:28:14] Bob Dobbs: that great line in 55,
[1:28:16] Bob Dobbs: it's from Dylan Thomas.
[1:28:17] Bob Dobbs: Five sovereign fingers tax the breath.
[1:28:21] Bob Dobbs: That,
[1:28:21] Bob Dobbs: to me,
[1:28:21] Bob Dobbs: it's...
[1:28:22] Bob Dobbs: You've got tactility.
[1:28:23] Bob Dobbs: You've got your internal organs being affected.
[1:28:27] Bob Dobbs: There's some kind of pressure happening to you,
[1:28:30] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:28:30] Bob Dobbs: And it's a tactile pressure because it's the extension of the sovereign fingers.
[1:28:36] Bob Dobbs: You remember that line,
[1:28:37] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:28:38] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:28:38] Cameron McEwen: of course.
[1:28:38] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:28:39] Cameron McEwen: But you see,
[1:28:41] Cameron McEwen: again,
[1:28:42] Cameron McEwen: we've got 1955.
[1:28:45] Bob Dobbs: No,
[1:28:45] Bob Dobbs: I'm just helping you find it.
[1:28:47] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:28:47] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[1:28:48] Cameron McEwen: But let me ask you a question.
[1:28:50] Bob Dobbs: The five sovereign figures taxed the bread,
[1:28:52] Bob Dobbs: that started with radio,
[1:28:53] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:28:54] Bob Dobbs: in the 20s,
[1:28:55] Bob Dobbs: you could say.
[1:28:55] Bob Dobbs: It wasn't happening in 1733.
[1:29:01] Cameron McEwen: Okay,
[1:29:01] Cameron McEwen: but let me ask you my question,
[1:29:03] Cameron McEwen: Bob.
[1:29:04] Cameron McEwen: A while back,
[1:29:05] Cameron McEwen: you mentioned that in,
[1:29:10] Cameron McEwen: with the,
[1:29:11] Cameron McEwen: I think you were talking about 1970,
[1:29:14] Cameron McEwen: and you were talking about a complete anti-environment.
[1:29:19] Cameron McEwen: And you were saying that this was completely different from the
[1:29:28] Cameron McEwen: 1920s, you said.
[1:29:29] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:29:32] Cameron McEwen: The thing is,
[1:29:35] Cameron McEwen: of course,
[1:29:36] Cameron McEwen: in one sense,
[1:29:37] Cameron McEwen: it's completely different from the
[1:29:39] Cameron McEwen: 1920s. But in another sense,
[1:29:42] Cameron McEwen: everything that came to be in 1970 was already there in the
[1:29:51] Bob Dobbs: 1920s. And in the
[1:29:53] Bob Dobbs: 1880s in the telegraph environment.
[1:29:55] Cameron McEwen: Correct.
[1:29:55] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:29:56] Cameron McEwen: or in 10 BC,
[1:29:59] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:29:59] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[1:29:59] Cameron McEwen: the elements.
[1:30:01] Cameron McEwen: were already there.
[1:30:03] Cameron McEwen: The working of the elements together were already there.
[1:30:11] Cameron McEwen: What is it that changes?
[1:30:15] Bob Dobbs: They didn't have the radio anti-environment 10 BC?
[1:30:18] Cameron McEwen: No,
[1:30:19] Cameron McEwen: they didn't have the anti-environment,
[1:30:20] Cameron McEwen: but they had the chemical materials and the physical laws that would allow the radio to become
[1:30:31] Cameron McEwen: a reality in around 1900,
[1:30:35] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:30:35] Cameron McEwen: So in one sense,
[1:30:40] Cameron McEwen: everything is the same.
[1:30:42] Cameron McEwen: Okay,
[1:30:43] Bob Dobbs: maybe you're talking about the effects and the radio is the cause,
[1:30:49] Bob Dobbs: or you're talking about the causes and the effects haven't arrived.
[1:30:54] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:30:56] Cameron McEwen: what I'm looking for is simply a description.
[1:31:01] Cameron McEwen: from your point of view about what it is that changes between,
[1:31:06] Cameron McEwen: let's say,
[1:31:06] Cameron McEwen: 1920 and 1970,
[1:31:09] Cameron McEwen: a 50-year period.
[1:31:10] Cameron McEwen: What is it that changes when the background,
[1:31:16] Cameron McEwen: the physical and chemical background is the same,
[1:31:21] Cameron McEwen: but the historical foreground or figure is completely different?
[1:31:27] Cameron McEwen: And what is it that's changed?
[1:31:29] Cameron McEwen: What is it that's allowed that change?
[1:31:34] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:31:34] Bob Dobbs: television,
[1:31:35] Bob Dobbs: you add the tactile eye.
[1:31:38] Bob Dobbs: It's not radio.
[1:31:39] Bob Dobbs: You can see.
[1:31:40] Bob Dobbs: It's more inclusive of the other senses than radio.
[1:31:43] Bob Dobbs: No,
[1:31:45] Cameron McEwen: but of course,
[1:31:48] Cameron McEwen: between 1920 and 1970,
[1:31:51] Cameron McEwen: there's all sorts of inventions.
[1:31:54] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:31:55] Cameron McEwen: And inventions allow...
[1:31:59] Cameron McEwen: The idea of television,
[1:32:01] Cameron McEwen: which was very much around in 1920,
[1:32:04] Cameron McEwen: they allow the actuality of television by the
[1:32:11] Bob Dobbs: 1940s. Yeah,
[1:32:13] Bob Dobbs: Philo Farnsworth creates electric television in the States in 1937.
[1:32:18] Cameron McEwen: Okay.
[1:32:19] Bob Dobbs: But it's not anti-environment yet.
[1:32:20] Bob Dobbs: It's just in his lab.
[1:32:21] Bob Dobbs: It's one little device.
[1:32:24] Bob Dobbs: It's not anti-environment.
[1:32:26] Cameron McEwen: Okay,
[1:32:26] Cameron McEwen: but you see the...
[1:32:28] Cameron McEwen: The physical and chemical background is the same.
[1:32:37] Bob Dobbs: What is the physical and chemical?
[1:32:38] Bob Dobbs: Are you talking about oxygen?
[1:32:40] Bob Dobbs: Nitrogen?
[1:32:44] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:32:44] Cameron McEwen: Nature?
[1:32:44] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:32:45] Cameron McEwen: The physical nature and its potential is the same.
[1:32:51] Cameron McEwen: But what's different is that there's inventions and...
[1:32:57] Cameron McEwen: the development of anti-environment,
[1:33:00] Cameron McEwen: as you would say.
[1:33:01] Cameron McEwen: And all I'm looking for,
[1:33:03] Cameron McEwen: Bob,
[1:33:03] Cameron McEwen: is your description of what kind of changes allow the great difference between 1920 and 1970.
[1:33:15] Cameron McEwen: Is it the exercise of mind?
[1:33:18] Cameron McEwen: Is it something more than that?
[1:33:20] Cameron McEwen: Is it something less than that?
[1:33:23] Bob Dobbs: It's the frequency of the new inventions.
[1:33:26] Bob Dobbs: The nitrogen and oxygen,
[1:33:30] Bob Dobbs: that's book categories.
[1:33:33] Bob Dobbs: There may be frequencies beneath how we visualize the chemistry.
[1:33:39] Bob Dobbs: Maybe acoustic frequencies.
[1:33:41] Bob Dobbs: Some of the mystics go into the...
[1:33:44] Bob Dobbs: You've seen the
[1:33:45] Bob Dobbs: Saito, those videos of sounds altering the salt in the water?
[1:33:52] Bob Dobbs: No.
[1:33:52] Bob Dobbs: The particulate?
[1:33:55] Cameron McEwen: No,
[1:33:55] Cameron McEwen: I haven't.
[1:33:56] Cameron McEwen: What are those called?
[1:33:57] Bob Dobbs: Cytograms or something?
[1:33:59] Bob Dobbs: Cryonics?
[1:34:03] Bob Dobbs: You put some music on a solution and the thing starts shifting around due to the non-visual acoustic effects.
[1:34:13] Cameron McEwen: Dancing bubbles.
[1:34:15] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:34:15] Bob Dobbs: in a way.
[1:34:18] Bob Dobbs: So to talk about nitrogen and oxygen,
[1:34:20] Bob Dobbs: that's a fact of literacy.
[1:34:23] Bob Dobbs: Those aren't necessarily the elements.
[1:34:25] Bob Dobbs: in the Electric Age.
[1:34:29] Cameron McEwen: I quite agree.
[1:34:30] Cameron McEwen: That's what my blog is all about.
[1:34:32] Cameron McEwen: Exactly that.
[1:34:33] Cameron McEwen: But what I don't understand from your point of view is what the factors
[1:34:49] Cameron McEwen: are that bring about these changes.
[1:34:55] Bob Dobbs: The media look different.
[1:34:59] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:35:00] Bob Dobbs: a house with television in it in 59 is very different from a house with radio in it in 39.
[1:35:06] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:35:06] Cameron McEwen: but okay,
[1:35:07] Cameron McEwen: so you've got those two snapshots.
[1:35:11] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:35:11] Bob Dobbs: Right?
[1:35:11] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:35:12] Cameron McEwen: okay,
[1:35:13] Cameron McEwen: what goes from one snapshot to the later one?
[1:35:19] Cameron McEwen: What is it that links them and then a lot of that brings about,
[1:35:25] Cameron McEwen: what is it that makes them both snapshots?
[1:35:28] Cameron McEwen: but also makes them very different as snapshots.
[1:35:31] Bob Dobbs: Because as objects,
[1:35:33] Bob Dobbs: they're different.
[1:35:35] Bob Dobbs: They look different.
[1:35:36] Bob Dobbs: They involve the senses differently.
[1:35:39] Cameron McEwen: But what brings that about?
[1:35:42] Bob Dobbs: Anti-environment,
[1:35:43] Bob Dobbs: the new invention itself.
[1:35:48] Bob Dobbs: Look at the cell phone.
[1:35:50] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:35:51] Cameron McEwen: but what brings the new invention about?
[1:35:56] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:35:56] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan liked to say that the radio yearned to be seen,
[1:36:01] Bob Dobbs: and then suddenly you could see radio with television.
[1:36:04] Cameron McEwen: Okay,
[1:36:05] Cameron McEwen: okay,
[1:36:06] Cameron McEwen: okay.
[1:36:06] Cameron McEwen: So there we're getting to what I was trying to talk about with the changes in organic and the changes in life.
[1:36:17] Cameron McEwen: What you seem to be saying there is that the understanding of the inventor
[1:36:26] Cameron McEwen: In the Gutenberg Galaxy is sort of the isolated mind having some great idea or something like this.
[1:36:34] Cameron McEwen: That gets transformed in a digital anti-environment it's no longer the individual inventor that brings about new things.
[1:36:47] Cameron McEwen: It's instead the anti-environment themselves are alive in a certain way.
[1:36:55] Cameron McEwen: And they have their own genetics.
[1:36:59] Bob Dobbs: Their own evolution.
[1:37:01] Bob Dobbs: Their own genetics,
[1:37:03] Bob Dobbs: yep.
[1:37:04] Bob Dobbs: And that's what happened in 53,
[1:37:07] Bob Dobbs: which,
[1:37:07] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:37:07] Bob Dobbs: it's not 1953 by other calendars,
[1:37:09] Bob Dobbs: but we call it 53.
[1:37:12] Bob Dobbs: And that's when Crick and Watson discovered the gene and McLuhan discovered the meme.
[1:37:19] Cameron McEwen: And why do you say that 53 was when McLuhan discovered the meme?
[1:37:23] Bob Dobbs: That's when he figures out Finnegans Wake,
[1:37:26] Bob Dobbs: and he Wright those articles in 53,
[1:37:29] Bob Dobbs: and they get the
[1:37:31] Bob Dobbs: Ford grant.
[1:37:33] Bob Dobbs: They spelled it out enough that Ford people said,
[1:37:36] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[1:37:37] Bob Dobbs: these guys are on to something,
[1:37:39] Bob Dobbs: so we'll give them a grant.
[1:37:42] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:37:43] Bob Dobbs: he does in 53,
[1:37:44] Bob Dobbs: he talks about the art forms in Finnegans Wake.
[1:37:47] Bob Dobbs: He's doing Finnegans Wake with Don in 50,
[1:37:49] Bob Dobbs: 51,
[1:37:50] Bob Dobbs: 52,
[1:37:51] Bob Dobbs: but he figures out
[1:37:53] Bob Dobbs: gets it really crystal what is going on in the wake and he says something no other people thought of and maybe not till recently did anybody catch up to McLuhan that the that there's different media anti-environment in thinning his wake it's
[1:38:10] Bob Dobbs: not just a book it's as he used to say you know it's it's a radio program so he started to see anti-environment in there and didn't get lost in the multiple semantic
[1:38:21] Bob Dobbs: meanings of the collage of 60 languages on each page.
[1:38:25] Bob Dobbs: He didn't stay in the Gutenberg level of languages.
[1:38:29] Bob Dobbs: He started to see,
[1:38:30] Bob Dobbs: no,
[1:38:30] Bob Dobbs: there's movie anti-environment showing here.
[1:38:32] Bob Dobbs: There's the tactile spots of television happening here.
[1:38:39] Bob Dobbs: That's a whole different way to look at the book.
[1:38:42] Bob Dobbs: He's actually seeing synchronically.
[1:38:45] Bob Dobbs: He's seeing all kinds of stuff that is not in the book.
[1:38:49] Bob Dobbs: But he says,
[1:38:50] Bob Dobbs: It's in the book.
[1:38:51] Bob Dobbs: It's evoked by the book.
[1:38:53] Bob Dobbs: All future technologies are in Finnegans Wake.
[1:38:57] Bob Dobbs: And the clatter of email and texting that people go through the last 15 years,
[1:39:03] Bob Dobbs: that's a big chunk of Finnegans Wake.
[1:39:05] Bob Dobbs: That's how it's presented.
[1:39:08] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:39:08] Bob Dobbs: endless bickering,
[1:39:11] Bob Dobbs: responding.
[1:39:11] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:39:13] Bob Dobbs: a lot of paragraphs with the line in front of it,
[1:39:16] Bob Dobbs: meaning it's being said.
[1:39:17] Bob Dobbs: Do you know what I mean?
[1:39:20] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:39:21] Cameron McEwen: I'm trying to think along with you here.
[1:39:24] Cameron McEwen: What I hear you saying is that
[1:39:26] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan in 1953 is dropping.
[1:39:35] Cameron McEwen: The idea of the individual being kind of an atomic person and instead people
[1:39:52] Cameron McEwen: engage in different ways with collective identities and roles and masks.
[1:40:00] Bob Dobbs: And that's a completion archetype.
[1:40:01] Bob Dobbs: I think it's around page 161 or so,
[1:40:04] Bob Dobbs: where he talks about Ulysses is about the individual ego,
[1:40:09] Bob Dobbs: and then the Finnegans Wake is corporate interfacing,
[1:40:14] Bob Dobbs: not private self.
[1:40:16] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[1:40:16] Cameron McEwen: And you're saying that he starts to put that idea together in 53,
[1:40:25] Bob Dobbs: you're saying?
[1:40:25] Bob Dobbs: 52,
[1:40:25] Bob Dobbs: and then he knows it in 52,
[1:40:26] Bob Dobbs: and he Wright it out in 53.
[1:40:28] Bob Dobbs: He does several essays.
[1:40:30] Bob Dobbs: He figures out how to describe Lewis as different from Joyce.
[1:40:34] Bob Dobbs: And these are the people that he's meditating on.
[1:40:38] Bob Dobbs: He's very involved with Pound.
[1:40:40] Bob Dobbs: Pound is helping him see this.
[1:40:42] Bob Dobbs: So he makes great statements about Pound in that period,
[1:40:46] Bob Dobbs: the Pound essay,
[1:40:47] Bob Dobbs: the Lewis essay,
[1:40:48] Bob Dobbs: and the two Joyce essays.
[1:40:50] Bob Dobbs: They're about 53.
[1:40:51] Bob Dobbs: They might be 54,
[1:40:53] Bob Dobbs: 52.
[1:40:54] Bob Dobbs: But they're in the interior landscape.
[1:40:56] Bob Dobbs: That is a...
[1:40:59] Bob Dobbs: That's when he drops being a critic.
[1:41:02] Bob Dobbs: He then does the critic thing in Renaissance for
[1:41:06] Bob Dobbs: 10 more years,
[1:41:08] Bob Dobbs: but he's absorbing whatever he's reviewing into his media model.
[1:41:13] Bob Dobbs: He's not doing traditional criticism and writing about what the story is in the book that he's reviewing.
[1:41:21] Bob Dobbs: He's just repeating his party line in every review.
[1:41:26] Bob Dobbs: And John Pick let him do that.
[1:41:28] Bob Dobbs: Probably couldn't have done it anywhere else.
[1:41:33] Bob Dobbs: See what I'm saying?
[1:41:35] Bob Dobbs: He takes every review as an excuse to say his perceptual pattern that he started in 53.
[1:41:48] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:41:48] Cameron McEwen: but what you're calling his party line is actually a kind of probing,
[1:41:57] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:41:57] Cameron McEwen: He doesn't.
[1:41:58] Cameron McEwen: He doesn't really know himself what he's thinking towards.
[1:42:05] Cameron McEwen: He needs to find that out,
[1:42:07] Cameron McEwen: and he needs to find that out like a blind person in a room that they've never been in before.
[1:42:15] Cameron McEwen: And so he's reading these books,
[1:42:19] Cameron McEwen: and he's...
[1:42:20] Bob Dobbs: And he's talking to the seminary.
[1:42:23] Bob Dobbs: He needs to bounce off people,
[1:42:24] Bob Dobbs: see how they react to it.
[1:42:25] Bob Dobbs: Absolutely.
[1:42:26] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.
[1:42:27] Cameron McEwen: So when...
[1:42:28] Cameron McEwen: In reading and in talking and maybe his dreaming,
[1:42:35] Cameron McEwen: what's going on is he's feeling his way around a whole anti-environment.
[1:42:41] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:42:42] Cameron McEwen: And he doesn't know what it is,
[1:42:44] Cameron McEwen: he doesn't know how to talk about it,
[1:42:46] Cameron McEwen: all he knows is...
[1:42:48] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:42:48] Bob Dobbs: he knows how to talk about it a little bit,
[1:42:51] Bob Dobbs: and he's broken into the silent sea.
[1:42:54] Bob Dobbs: Then he's got to figure out how are the people going to react to this.
[1:42:58] Bob Dobbs: At what level does he present his knowing?
[1:43:02] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:43:02] Bob Dobbs: how much does he have to dumb it down?
[1:43:08] Bob Dobbs: And the satellite,
[1:43:10] Bob Dobbs: okay,
[1:43:11] Bob Dobbs: he probably didn't see the satellite,
[1:43:13] Bob Dobbs: didn't foresee what it was going to be until Sputnik showed up.
[1:43:16] Bob Dobbs: And he thinks about it for two years.
[1:43:20] Cameron McEwen: He had a good idea of the satellite already in the early 50s.
[1:43:23] Cameron McEwen: I've got a text.
[1:43:27] Cameron McEwen: I think I put it in the blog already,
[1:43:29] Cameron McEwen: but if not,
[1:43:30] Cameron McEwen: I'll find it and send it to you.
[1:43:32] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:43:32] Bob Dobbs: I'd like to see that.
[1:43:33] Cameron McEwen: He describes a anti-environment before Sputnik,
[1:43:38] Cameron McEwen: for sure.
[1:43:38] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:43:39] Bob Dobbs: that's pretty neat.
[1:43:40] Bob Dobbs: But overall,
[1:43:41] Bob Dobbs: in general,
[1:43:42] Bob Dobbs: he watches the effects from 57 to 60.
[1:43:45] Bob Dobbs: He has a couple of essays in 60,
[1:43:47] Bob Dobbs: 61.
[1:43:48] Bob Dobbs: He talks about television becoming archetypal.
[1:43:51] Bob Dobbs: He's really speeding it up.
[1:43:54] Bob Dobbs: And he's talking about the effect of the satellite.
[1:43:56] Bob Dobbs: what will happen when the satellite becomes art form.
[1:43:59] Bob Dobbs: He's on a bigger scale,
[1:44:02] Bob Dobbs: it seems,
[1:44:04] Bob Dobbs: in 62.
[1:44:06] Bob Dobbs: And he's starting to think of managing global anti-environment.
[1:44:09] Bob Dobbs: With that center he builds and designs in 64,
[1:44:14] Bob Dobbs: where he's going to be measuring sensory thresholds,
[1:44:19] Bob Dobbs: he's moved completely into another plateau.
[1:44:25] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[1:44:25] Cameron McEwen: I agree.
[1:44:27] Cameron McEwen: But he's partly been misled there.
[1:44:30] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:44:31] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[1:44:32] Cameron McEwen: misled by colleagues.
[1:44:33] Cameron McEwen: He's been misled by his own ill health,
[1:44:37] Cameron McEwen: by his worry that he may not be around for a while.
[1:44:42] Cameron McEwen: And so he's grasping at straws that may be bad straws.
[1:44:47] Cameron McEwen: There's a lot going on there.
[1:44:49] Cameron McEwen: Oh,
[1:44:49] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[1:44:50] Bob Dobbs: But he is doing it.
[1:44:51] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:44:52] Bob Dobbs: he is trying to figure out he's on a level no one else is.
[1:44:55] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:44:56] Cameron McEwen: that may be that may be.
[1:44:57] Cameron McEwen: But I don't I
[1:44:59] Cameron McEwen: I disagree with your description.
[1:45:01] Cameron McEwen: in one way,
[1:45:02] Cameron McEwen: and that is that
[1:45:03] Cameron McEwen: I think he was more at sea in the bad sense than being at sea in the good sense.
[1:45:12] Cameron McEwen: So you say,
[1:45:14] Cameron McEwen: oh,
[1:45:14] Cameron McEwen: he got into the Sargossa Sea,
[1:45:16] Cameron McEwen: and now he can sort of look down on people and look at their reactions,
[1:45:22] Cameron McEwen: Whereas I think he has a vague idea of making...
[1:45:32] Cameron McEwen: breakthroughs,
[1:45:34] Cameron McEwen: but he really didn't have a good grasp on them.
[1:45:38] Cameron McEwen: He didn't really understand them or himself,
[1:45:44] Cameron McEwen: and so he continually had to wrestle with these vague ideas,
[1:45:52] Cameron McEwen: trying to make them precise,
[1:45:56] Cameron McEwen: back out of cul-de-sacs and try another avenue.
[1:46:00] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[1:46:00] Cameron McEwen: Now,
[1:46:01] Bob Dobbs: people didn't see that because he was presenting his 50s stuff in Understanding Media.
[1:46:06] Bob Dobbs: And that looked pretty cool,
[1:46:09] Bob Dobbs: detached,
[1:46:10] Bob Dobbs: and had a poise.
[1:46:11] Bob Dobbs: But he was already working out a cliché to archetype with
[1:46:16] Bob Dobbs: Watson. So that's where the real ground was.
[1:46:19] Bob Dobbs: And people didn't see that.
[1:46:23] Bob Dobbs: And Watson,
[1:46:24] Bob Dobbs: because Watson saw that,
[1:46:27] Bob Dobbs: he almost didn't respect McLuhan enough.
[1:46:29] Bob Dobbs: He saw more of what you're talking about,
[1:46:31] Bob Dobbs: maybe,
[1:46:32] Bob Dobbs: because he was trying to compose the book with
[1:46:37] Bob Dobbs: Sheila and him and Marshall,
[1:46:38] Bob Dobbs: and they were corresponding a whole new language.
[1:46:44] Bob Dobbs: The turnover of cliché to archetype is the holeopathic process.
[1:46:48] Bob Dobbs: The interplay of all the media at that point,
[1:46:53] Bob Dobbs: satellite TV,
[1:46:54] Bob Dobbs: radio,
[1:46:54] Bob Dobbs: cars,
[1:46:55] Bob Dobbs: bulldozers,
[1:46:56] Bob Dobbs: computers.
[1:46:57] Bob Dobbs: was intermingling in the stew more and more intensely,
[1:47:02] Bob Dobbs: holeopathic.
[1:47:04] Bob Dobbs: And he was trying to figure out that.
[1:47:06] Bob Dobbs: But he could just talk about visual space and acoustic space,
[1:47:09] Bob Dobbs: the 50s talk.
[1:47:11] Bob Dobbs: That was what you were hearing in his speeches in the 60s.
[1:47:15] Bob Dobbs: It was old stuff,
[1:47:18] Bob Dobbs: okay?
[1:47:19] Bob Dobbs: And he was hiding.
[1:47:20] Bob Dobbs: If he was going through a turmoil,
[1:47:21] Bob Dobbs: like you're saying,
[1:47:22] Bob Dobbs: he hid that.
[1:47:24] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:47:26] Cameron McEwen: I think he...
[1:47:27] Cameron McEwen: What?
[1:47:27] Cameron McEwen: It definitely was going through turmoil in the 60s,
[1:47:31] Cameron McEwen: but that was a different turmoil from the 50s.
[1:47:33] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:47:34] Cameron McEwen: The
[1:47:35] Bob Dobbs: 50s presented the 40s.
[1:47:36] Bob Dobbs: The 40s presented the 30s.
[1:47:38] Bob Dobbs: He was always
[1:47:39] Bob Dobbs: 10 years behind,
[1:47:41] Bob Dobbs: and the public was 10 years behind.
[1:47:43] Bob Dobbs: But what they saw him doing,
[1:47:46] Bob Dobbs: he had done before,
[1:47:50] Cameron McEwen: 10 years before.
[1:47:51] Cameron McEwen: But done before,
[1:47:52] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[1:47:53] Cameron McEwen: it's like a person eating.
[1:47:55] Cameron McEwen: It's different.
[1:47:56] Cameron McEwen: to stick it in your mouth.
[1:47:57] Cameron McEwen: It's a different thing to digest it in your stomach.
[1:48:01] Cameron McEwen: So he may have stuck,
[1:48:04] Cameron McEwen: let's say,
[1:48:06] Cameron McEwen: 1930s stuff into his mouth in the 1940s,
[1:48:10] Cameron McEwen: but it took him all of the
[1:48:12] Cameron McEwen: 1940s to digest it.
[1:48:13] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[1:48:13] Bob Dobbs: so he was digesting what he ate in the 30s and distributing it in the 40s to others.
[1:48:19] Cameron McEwen: Correct,
[1:48:20] Cameron McEwen: correct.
[1:48:21] Bob Dobbs: He was digesting.
[1:48:22] Bob Dobbs: He distracted them with what they were enjoying eating.
[1:48:26] Bob Dobbs: Later,
[1:48:26] Bob Dobbs: they'd get the digestive problems,
[1:48:28] Bob Dobbs: too.
[1:48:31] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:48:31] Cameron McEwen: although,
[1:48:32] Cameron McEwen: personally,
[1:48:32] Cameron McEwen: I don't think that people are digesting even the 1940s.
[1:48:38] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[1:48:39] Bob Dobbs: right.
[1:48:39] Bob Dobbs: At this point,
[1:48:40] Cameron McEwen: let alone the
[1:48:41] Cameron McEwen: 1950s. Yeah,
[1:48:41] Bob Dobbs: most people spit it out.
[1:48:45] Bob Dobbs: No,
[1:48:45] Cameron McEwen: for sure.
[1:48:46] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:48:47] Cameron McEwen: That's exactly right.
[1:48:48] Cameron McEwen: That's exactly right.
[1:48:50] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:48:52] Cameron McEwen: And so we're sort of coming to the end here,
[1:48:56] Cameron McEwen: but we're actually,
[1:48:58] Cameron McEwen: in a certain way,
[1:49:00] Cameron McEwen: by going through detours and different narratives and stuff,
[1:49:05] Cameron McEwen: we've come back to page 77 and page 78.
[1:49:10] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:49:11] Cameron McEwen: Because we've,
[1:49:16] Cameron McEwen: mostly below the surface,
[1:49:18] Cameron McEwen: we've been talking about tactility and memes.
[1:49:22] Cameron McEwen: which is what I think you're about to get into in your book.
[1:49:27] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:49:27] Bob Dobbs: let me end with this.
[1:49:28] Bob Dobbs: So you go to 79.
[1:49:30] Bob Dobbs: and get to the below the aping blue paragraph and look at what i say the issue is not a reality Innis spin-offs it's tactility squared which is flummoxed all cultures and has them scrambling for new or old identities the millennials can be understood under this care piece mccloughan
[1:49:49] Bob Dobbs: in understanding media talks about how the desire for more money is a tactile expression the excessive desire to make money by any means necessary in all our Gutenbergian
[1:49:58] Bob Dobbs: and Menippean institutions since the 70s period of stagflation is a little-known example of the Baroque spiral of tactility squared.
[1:50:07] Bob Dobbs: Emphasizing shareholder values through the exclusion of hardware development is not an extension of visual space,
[1:50:12] Bob Dobbs: but the endless involving process of expanding-slash-exploring the resonant interval,
[1:50:17] Bob Dobbs: popularly known as Wall Street.
[1:50:20] Bob Dobbs: So there's a mouthful.
[1:50:21] Bob Dobbs: Then I say,
[1:50:23] Bob Dobbs: so far,
[1:50:23] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan scholars have placed too much emphasis on the role of the trivium
[1:50:26] Bob Dobbs: in the media poetics of McLuhan.
[1:50:28] Bob Dobbs: The quadrivium is far more important as a creative ground for McLuhan Postman Bride output.
[1:50:33] Bob Dobbs: So yes,
[1:50:35] Bob Dobbs: he was processing the quadrivium in the 60s,
[1:50:38] Bob Dobbs: maybe even the
[1:50:39] Bob Dobbs: 50s, and presenting the trivium as the old figure for easy consumption.
[1:50:47] Bob Dobbs: So what do I say next?
[1:50:50] Bob Dobbs: It's shaped like this.
[1:50:52] Bob Dobbs: Make this interesting chart.
[1:50:53] Bob Dobbs: 1940s.
[1:50:56] Bob Dobbs: The Trivium Plus Advertising Comics,
[1:50:59] Bob Dobbs: 1950s.
[1:50:59] Bob Dobbs: The Quadrivium Plus Telephone Motor Car Movie Radio Television.
[1:51:03] Bob Dobbs: And then I have the Quadrivium Parts.
[1:51:06] Bob Dobbs: Astronomy,
[1:51:07] Bob Dobbs: C.
[1:51:08] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan Three Copernican Revolutions in Letters.
[1:51:10] Bob Dobbs: Geometry,
[1:51:11] Bob Dobbs: C.
[1:51:11] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan Euclidean Geometry vs.
[1:51:13] Bob Dobbs: Carolyn Dean in Understanding Media.
[1:51:15] Bob Dobbs: Arithmetic,
[1:51:16] Bob Dobbs: C.
[1:51:16] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan Nielsen Ratings vs.
[1:51:17] Bob Dobbs: Big Brother's GNP in Take Today.
[1:51:22] Bob Dobbs: C.
[1:51:22] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan Musical on Russians and Elvis.
[1:51:24] Bob Dobbs: That's in the
[1:51:25] Bob Dobbs: 50s.
[1:51:30] Cameron McEwen: Before you get,
[1:51:31] Cameron McEwen: yeah,
[1:51:31] Cameron McEwen: I just want to ask this question.
[1:51:34] Cameron McEwen: We came back from
[1:51:36] Cameron McEwen: TechBody to looking at the
[1:51:39] Cameron McEwen: Android Meme and to the,
[1:51:42] Cameron McEwen: basically to the development of memes and of tactility.
[1:51:50] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:51:50] Cameron McEwen: And so now you are suddenly jumping into
[1:51:55] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan again.
[1:51:57] Cameron McEwen: Earlier you had talked about the medium and the message and stuff like this.
[1:52:01] Cameron McEwen: And then we got away from McLuhan and now you're going back into McLuhan.
[1:52:06] Cameron McEwen: So what's the point of going back into McLuhan?
[1:52:11] Cameron McEwen: Is McLuhan here a way of sort of describing or re-describing what you've just been talking about with memes and tactility?
[1:52:25] Cameron McEwen: Or is it a transition to something beyond that?
[1:52:30] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:52:31] Bob Dobbs: I know people now,
[1:52:32] Bob Dobbs: not so much in the 60s,
[1:52:34] Bob Dobbs: they know the
[1:52:35] Bob Dobbs: PhD. So I'm bringing in thoughts that people will have.
[1:52:39] Bob Dobbs: They'll get lost in handling the trivium and not so much the quadrivium,
[1:52:44] Bob Dobbs: but there's a lot of thinking about his PhD.
[1:52:47] Bob Dobbs: So they're dragged back to there.
[1:52:49] Bob Dobbs: So I want to include that Explorations,
[1:52:52] Bob Dobbs: that part of McLuhan backlog.
[1:52:57] Bob Dobbs: to show that I'm including that.
[1:52:59] Bob Dobbs: And
[1:53:00] Bob Dobbs: I think I'm trying to get somewhere here.
[1:53:03] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:53:04] Cameron McEwen: but my question is,
[1:53:07] Cameron McEwen: why are you going to McLuhan?
[1:53:09] Bob Dobbs: Because other people would bring it up.
[1:53:11] Bob Dobbs: They go,
[1:53:11] Bob Dobbs: well,
[1:53:11] Bob Dobbs: what about his PhD?
[1:53:12] Bob Dobbs: What about the Ivins and the Quadrophrenia?
[1:53:14] Bob Dobbs: A lot of people make a lot out of that.
[1:53:16] Bob Dobbs: So
[1:53:16] Bob Dobbs: I'm trying to complexify the Ivins and the Quadrophrenia to get to the Android Meme phase.
[1:53:23] Bob Dobbs: So I have...
[1:53:24] Bob Dobbs: The Trivium Plus in the 40s.
[1:53:26] Bob Dobbs: Then I have the Quadrivium Plus in the
[1:53:29] Bob Dobbs: 50s. Then I have the
[1:53:32] Bob Dobbs: 60s is the Quadrivium Plus later development,
[1:53:34] Bob Dobbs: satellite,
[1:53:35] Bob Dobbs: cyborg,
[1:53:35] Bob Dobbs: mixed corporate media,
[1:53:36] Bob Dobbs: the global theater.
[1:53:38] Bob Dobbs: Then I've got the Tetrad in the 70s plus instant replay.
[1:53:41] Bob Dobbs: And he's saying instant replay is the biggest metaphysical rupture for humans ever.
[1:53:47] Bob Dobbs: Then the laser beam and the hologram.
[1:53:49] Cameron McEwen: That's why I speak about synchronicity all the time.
[1:53:52] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[1:53:52] Bob Dobbs: So the...
[1:53:54] Bob Dobbs: I'm bringing in the stuff that he actually talked about in the 70s,
[1:53:59] Bob Dobbs: like the five parts of rhetoric.
[1:54:01] Bob Dobbs: He mentioned that a little more than in the
[1:54:04] Bob Dobbs: 60s and 50s.
[1:54:05] Bob Dobbs: And then you have Hindiety.
[1:54:07] Bob Dobbs: So I'm looking at fragments from Clicid Archetype,
[1:54:11] Bob Dobbs: Take Today,
[1:54:14] Bob Dobbs: papers he was writing,
[1:54:15] Bob Dobbs: and then the Tetrad.
[1:54:16] Bob Dobbs: So I want to show
[1:54:18] Bob Dobbs: I'm trying to include the vast array of things he was working on.
[1:54:23] Bob Dobbs: Working.
[1:54:24] Bob Dobbs: Just to name it means I'm including it.
[1:54:27] Bob Dobbs: Look at this,
[1:54:27] Bob Dobbs: Hendieties of the Quadrivium via Marshall McLuhan.
[1:54:31] Bob Dobbs: A sum of lifeless artifacts.
[1:54:35] Bob Dobbs: That's from an article.
[1:54:37] Bob Dobbs: Planet of the Dead,
[1:54:38] Bob Dobbs: to go outside to be alone.
[1:54:39] Bob Dobbs: So I'm bringing in all the ideas of his 70s.
[1:54:44] Cameron McEwen: output and let's see um where do you understand my question about why you're doing this is it is it because um mclean can um i'm integrating i'm integrating all of mclean uh
[1:55:04] Bob Dobbs: people i don't know i don't three people in the world they've read enough to notice okay he's talking about the quadrophrenia and the...
[1:55:13] Bob Dobbs: Five parts of rhetoric,
[1:55:14] Bob Dobbs: four levels of exegesis in the
[1:55:16] Bob Dobbs: 70s. Is that a new thing?
[1:55:20] Bob Dobbs: Why did he bring it up so late?
[1:55:21] Bob Dobbs: And it's kind of trivial.
[1:55:22] Bob Dobbs: It's old Gutenberg stuff.
[1:55:25] Bob Dobbs: So I'm trying to show everything that he added from the 40s to get to a comprehensive,
[1:55:36] Bob Dobbs: showing that I'm not leaving anything out about all the stuff McLuhan talked about.
[1:55:42] Bob Dobbs: I mean,
[1:55:42] Bob Dobbs: it's pretty comprehensive.
[1:55:43] Bob Dobbs: I've got here trivial,
[1:55:44] Bob Dobbs: last word,
[1:55:45] Bob Dobbs: cliché,
[1:55:46] Bob Dobbs: dialectical,
[1:55:47] Bob Dobbs: art form,
[1:55:47] Bob Dobbs: grammatical.
[1:55:49] Bob Dobbs: These are interesting patterns in themselves,
[1:55:52] Bob Dobbs: how I'm using his ammunition.
[1:56:00] Bob Dobbs: So I get through using all that,
[1:56:02] Bob Dobbs: and I'm going down to page 82,
[1:56:09] Bob Dobbs: and I've got here Jean Baudrillard.
[1:56:11] Bob Dobbs: was on the appropriate angle.
[1:56:14] Bob Dobbs: So we're dealing with different angles in the sphere.
[1:56:17] Bob Dobbs: When he said that he regarded McLuhan as a musician,
[1:56:19] Bob Dobbs: so I want to bring that up.
[1:56:20] Bob Dobbs: I think it's a great idea.
[1:56:22] Bob Dobbs: It's a way to get us out of the literate categories of media study that he presented in Gutenberg and Understanding Media.
[1:56:30] Bob Dobbs: If McLuhan a musician,
[1:56:31] Bob Dobbs: and he's working with the quadrivium,
[1:56:35] Bob Dobbs: that opens up scenarios that people hadn't thought of.
[1:56:42] Bob Dobbs: in relation to McLuhan.
[1:56:43] Bob Dobbs: So I'm bringing in the synesthete and the co-anesthete.
[1:56:46] Bob Dobbs: So here I am saying the only musical paramedicologist who was keeping up with McLuhan was Frank Zappa.
[1:56:52] Bob Dobbs: People are like,
[1:56:53] Bob Dobbs: 99.9%?
[1:56:55] Bob Dobbs: What are you talking about?
[1:56:56] Bob Dobbs: Zappa's a fucking rocker.
[1:56:57] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[1:56:58] Bob Dobbs: I'm trying to show
[1:57:00] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan after 62 is dealing with Posthuman anti-environment way more.
[1:57:07] Bob Dobbs: He's not a writer even anymore.
[1:57:09] Bob Dobbs: And that's what Peter Montgomery noticed.
[1:57:11] Bob Dobbs: He said,
[1:57:11] Bob Dobbs: as a student hanging out with McLuhan,
[1:57:13] Bob Dobbs: he said,
[1:57:14] Bob Dobbs: something shifted around 62.
[1:57:16] Bob Dobbs: He just wasn't interested in his literary criticism anymore.
[1:57:18] Bob Dobbs: That's because he was managing whole anti-environment.
[1:57:21] Bob Dobbs: So you've got to look at him as a musician or as a guy doing chemistry in the lab with genes.
[1:57:28] Bob Dobbs: You've got to get him into the Frankenstein level.
[1:57:30] Bob Dobbs: Because that's what he sounded like when he did that proposal in 64 for a center measuring population sensory thresholds.
[1:57:40] Bob Dobbs: People...
[1:57:41] Bob Dobbs: I brought that up occasionally with a different academic.
[1:57:44] Bob Dobbs: They go,
[1:57:44] Bob Dobbs: that's fascism.
[1:57:45] Bob Dobbs: That was their immediate reaction.
[1:57:47] Bob Dobbs: Why would he be allowed to do that?
[1:57:49] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:57:49] Bob Dobbs: if you understood the disruption that was happening with each anti-environment in the
[1:57:55] Bob Dobbs: 1670s, you might tolerate someone manage them just like McLuhan would say you manage the economy.
[1:58:01] Bob Dobbs: But the economy was inside a larger economy of information whirlpools.
[1:58:07] Bob Dobbs: So he's offering a means to.
[1:58:12] Bob Dobbs: To show what you're being massaged with and your issues about private identity and all those littered things,
[1:58:17] Bob Dobbs: and you're trying to adapt a little bit to some communal ideas,
[1:58:21] Bob Dobbs: is so puny compared to the massive anti-environment we're in and we're being put in by the 70s.
[1:58:27] Bob Dobbs: So you've got to start looking at McLuhan as the media management.
[1:58:33] Bob Dobbs: And Ted Carpenter told me he didn't like that.
[1:58:35] Bob Dobbs: He said,
[1:58:35] Bob Dobbs: no,
[1:58:36] Bob Dobbs: I couldn't take that global thermostat McLuhan.
[1:58:38] Bob Dobbs: I went back to the aesthetics.
[1:58:40] Bob Dobbs: That's what I was interested in.
[1:58:41] Bob Dobbs: Actually,
[1:58:42] Bob Dobbs: he dropped out completely and did anthropology.
[1:58:46] Bob Dobbs: He looked up that guy and made a big bunch of volumes around him.
[1:58:50] Bob Dobbs: He fell back into the specialism of anthropology,
[1:58:55] Bob Dobbs: and he couldn't take the later McLuhan.
[1:58:59] Bob Dobbs: I still don't find people who can take it.
[1:59:03] Bob Dobbs: They don't want to look at the reality.
[1:59:06] Bob Dobbs: They think that's a Posthuman,
[1:59:07] Bob Dobbs: what he's saying in Playboy.
[1:59:10] Cameron McEwen: You see,
[1:59:11] Cameron McEwen: I am very interested in these ideas,
[1:59:13] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:59:14] Cameron McEwen: But my blog basically tries to come to terms with all this stuff in McLuhan and has been doing so for 10 years.
[1:59:25] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:59:27] Bob Dobbs: And you're doing a good job of it.
[1:59:29] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:59:29] Cameron McEwen: thank you.
[1:59:30] Cameron McEwen: But what I don't understand is why you want to get into
[1:59:35] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan at this point in your pamphlet.
[1:59:40] Bob Dobbs: Because I want to show that I'm aware of all the other aspects of McLuhan that haven't been mentioned yet.
[1:59:47] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:59:47] Cameron McEwen: but to what end?
[1:59:51] Bob Dobbs: I think it helps to get to the rupture and get into the Android Meme and how he anticipates the meme with his verbal modules.
[2:00:00] Bob Dobbs: So everything has to be said.
[2:00:05] Bob Dobbs: I've got to include everything about McLuhan,
[2:00:08] Bob Dobbs: all the things he was doing.
[2:00:10] Bob Dobbs: to show,
[2:00:12] Bob Dobbs: and for most people,
[2:00:13] Bob Dobbs: they can't even take it.
[2:00:15] Bob Dobbs: They don't know that much about McLuhan.
[2:00:16] Bob Dobbs: They didn't know it covers all that stuff.
[2:00:18] Bob Dobbs: So I'm trying to stretch their concepts about McLuhan to get them ready for this dramatic anticipation of the meme and then the tech body.
[2:00:27] Cameron McEwen: Okay,
[2:00:28] Cameron McEwen: so
[2:00:29] Cameron McEwen: I guess what you may be saying is that if we're going to understand a meme,
[2:00:38] Cameron McEwen: And then if we're going to understand the Android Meme,
[2:00:41] Cameron McEwen: then we have to understand the few people that were talking about this stuff,
[2:00:49] Cameron McEwen: or at least intuiting this stuff.
[2:00:52] Cameron McEwen: And there,
[2:00:54] Cameron McEwen: the people are
[2:00:55] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan or Zappa or Joyce.
[2:00:59] Bob Dobbs: And Barry Nevitt.
[2:01:00] Bob Dobbs: I'd include Barry Nevitt.
[2:01:01] Bob Dobbs: He was the only one who could take this talk.
[2:01:06] Bob Dobbs: of the colleagues around McLuhan.
[2:01:11] Cameron McEwen: I'm surprised at that.
[2:01:13] Cameron McEwen: To me,
[2:01:14] Cameron McEwen: Nevitt is a little bit mechanical.
[2:01:18] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[2:01:20] Bob Dobbs: but that may be because he's got to use words with you,
[2:01:23] Bob Dobbs: and that's what you're seeing.
[2:01:24] Bob Dobbs: But if you read his books carefully,
[2:01:28] Bob Dobbs: I think he does a pretty good job of not being mechanical.
[2:01:34] Bob Dobbs: I mean,
[2:01:34] Bob Dobbs: to the surface,
[2:01:35] Bob Dobbs: reader of McLuhan.
[2:01:37] Bob Dobbs: They say,
[2:01:37] Bob Dobbs: oh,
[2:01:37] Bob Dobbs: he's just repeating McLuhan.
[2:01:38] Bob Dobbs: No,
[2:01:39] Bob Dobbs: man.
[2:01:39] Bob Dobbs: In his books,
[2:01:41] Bob Dobbs: he talks issues and disciplines and scientific developments that McLuhan didn't know about.
[2:01:48] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[2:01:48] Bob Dobbs: So he's...
[2:01:49] Bob Dobbs: Plus,
[2:01:51] Cameron McEwen: to give barriers due,
[2:01:53] Cameron McEwen: he's also trying to think through stuff that he doesn't really understand perfectly.
[2:02:00] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[2:02:01] Cameron McEwen: I agree.
[2:02:02] Cameron McEwen: That's not to say that I do.
[2:02:04] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[2:02:05] Cameron McEwen: Trying to say that when people are genuinely thinking and when they're genuinely being interesting,
[2:02:16] Cameron McEwen: then it's because they're engaged with stuff that they don't have a complete handle on.
[2:02:22] Cameron McEwen: Handles aren't interesting.
[2:02:23] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[2:02:26] Bob Dobbs: So they're seeing events in the media like streaking in 74.
[2:02:33] Bob Dobbs: and Barry McLuhan get patterns.
[2:02:35] Bob Dobbs: They get meaning from that.
[2:02:36] Bob Dobbs: They say,
[2:02:37] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[2:02:37] Bob Dobbs: that's what we're talking about.
[2:02:39] Bob Dobbs: And then they make a statement about it.
[2:02:42] Bob Dobbs: They kept observing what was going on and talking about it.
[2:02:47] Bob Dobbs: Ted Carpenter wasn't doing that.
[2:02:49] Bob Dobbs: Harley Parker wasn't.
[2:02:51] Bob Dobbs: Harley Parker was drunk.
[2:02:54] Bob Dobbs: Logan and De Kerckhove are starting to do a few replay of Gutenberg issues and trying to do a book.
[2:03:04] Bob Dobbs: They're not dealing with the present.
[2:03:08] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[2:03:08] Bob Dobbs: I say I was.
[2:03:10] Bob Dobbs: I was in there on the radio,
[2:03:12] Bob Dobbs: and I was listening to people,
[2:03:14] Bob Dobbs: what they had to say,
[2:03:15] Bob Dobbs: and then try to show,
[2:03:16] Bob Dobbs: apply McLuhan formula to their situation to prompt them to look at McLuhan.
[2:03:23] Bob Dobbs: I put myself right out there doing McLuhan every week.
[2:03:31] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:03:32] Bob Dobbs: Eric.
[2:03:33] Bob Dobbs: Eric was teaching executives how to fucking spell.
[2:03:40] Bob Dobbs: You know about that,
[2:03:40] Bob Dobbs: eh?
[2:03:41] Bob Dobbs: He and a guy named Davis.
[2:03:44] Cameron McEwen: I know they had their little business.
[2:03:47] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:03:47] Bob Dobbs: for executives.
[2:03:50] Bob Dobbs: Eric didn't.
[2:03:51] Bob Dobbs: He had to have a job.
[2:03:52] Bob Dobbs: He had to raise his family.
[2:03:53] Bob Dobbs: He couldn't be fooling around in CKLN like I did.
[2:03:56] Bob Dobbs: I had the time and freedom to do it.
[2:04:01] Bob Dobbs: People go back and listen to that stuff and they go,
[2:04:03] Bob Dobbs: wow,
[2:04:04] Bob Dobbs: you were so far ahead,
[2:04:05] Bob Dobbs: everybody.
[2:04:06] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[2:04:07] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if I'd say that,
[2:04:08] Bob Dobbs: but that's the effect it has on people.
[2:04:11] Bob Dobbs: It's so new to them,
[2:04:13] Bob Dobbs: what I'm saying way back then.
[2:04:15] Bob Dobbs: It works.
[2:04:16] Bob Dobbs: It's a good repository of
[2:04:20] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan in action.
[2:04:23] Cameron McEwen: But not just McLuhan,
[2:04:24] Cameron McEwen: right?
[2:04:25] Cameron McEwen: You were doing
[2:04:26] Cameron McEwen: Nate Russell and all these kinds of people and Herbert Armstrong.
[2:04:30] Bob Dobbs: I was overlaying them.
[2:04:33] Bob Dobbs: They were symbolically seeing the same thing,
[2:04:35] Bob Dobbs: but presenting the trivium.
[2:04:37] Bob Dobbs: Mae Brussell was dialectics.
[2:04:41] Bob Dobbs: No,
[2:04:41] Bob Dobbs: she was arithmetic.
[2:04:43] Bob Dobbs: Dr.
[2:04:43] Bob Dobbs: Beter was astronomy.
[2:04:47] Bob Dobbs: Finnegans Wake was geometry.
[2:04:49] Bob Dobbs: Zappa was music.
[2:04:51] Bob Dobbs: Herbert W.
[2:04:51] Bob Dobbs: Armstrong,
[2:04:52] Bob Dobbs: fundamentalist preacher,
[2:04:53] Bob Dobbs: was grammar.
[2:04:55] Bob Dobbs: LaRouche was dialectics,
[2:04:56] Bob Dobbs: and McLuhan was rhetoric.
[2:05:00] Bob Dobbs: And I have a memo to Prince Charles.
[2:05:02] Bob Dobbs: It's laid out in one of the pamphlets on Bob's Hauntology.
[2:05:08] Bob Dobbs: So
[2:05:12] Bob Dobbs: I would say,
[2:05:13] Bob Dobbs: okay,
[2:05:14] Bob Dobbs: I'm giving opinions,
[2:05:17] Bob Dobbs: but actually it's organized around a formula that has ten factors,
[2:05:22] Bob Dobbs: seven plus I brought in the occult with the mediumship,
[2:05:25] Bob Dobbs: and that was my formula to interact with the public.
[2:05:29] Bob Dobbs: I was telling somebody the other day that people need to learn McLuhan to create,
[2:05:35] Bob Dobbs: to be part of the Esperanto.
[2:05:37] Bob Dobbs: You're not giving your opinions,
[2:05:39] Bob Dobbs: you're finding a language that every culture could use.
[2:05:43] Bob Dobbs: They could learn the basics from
[2:05:45] Bob Dobbs: Barry Nevitt'
[2:05:46] Bob Dobbs: books or McLuhan,
[2:05:47] Bob Dobbs: and they can talk McLuhan as almost like a cult jargon.
[2:05:54] Bob Dobbs: It wouldn't have to be a cult,
[2:05:56] Bob Dobbs: and we'd have a global language.
[2:05:58] Bob Dobbs: Because we can't use left,
[2:05:59] Bob Dobbs: right,
[2:05:59] Bob Dobbs: or any of the categories anymore,
[2:06:01] Bob Dobbs: private,
[2:06:01] Bob Dobbs: public,
[2:06:02] Bob Dobbs: none of them work.
[2:06:03] Bob Dobbs: So you've got to use the kindergarten language that McLuhan created,
[2:06:09] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:06:09] Bob Dobbs: a basic vocabulary that every culture could talk to each other.
[2:06:14] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[2:06:15] Cameron McEwen: I agree completely with that.
[2:06:17] Cameron McEwen: It's just that the language that is used is not...
[2:06:24] Cameron McEwen: some sort of final language.
[2:06:26] Bob Dobbs: No.
[2:06:27] Cameron McEwen: The language only works because it itself is in question.
[2:06:31] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[2:06:32] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[2:06:32] Cameron McEwen: So if you think about chemistry,
[2:06:34] Cameron McEwen: for example,
[2:06:37] Cameron McEwen: the elements that were first isolated,
[2:06:41] Cameron McEwen: like oxygen,
[2:06:43] Cameron McEwen: in the
[2:06:45] Cameron McEwen: 1780s, those elements are to this day continually being spread.
[2:06:53] Cameron McEwen: specified and re-specified.
[2:06:55] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[2:06:57] Cameron McEwen: So the language that
[2:07:00] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan was putting forward was a sort of a first attempt to find a way to talk trans-culturally.
[2:07:14] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[2:07:15] Cameron McEwen: Trans-chronologically.
[2:07:19] Cameron McEwen: And so...
[2:07:23] Cameron McEwen: And those ideas need to be tested against the facts of the world,
[2:07:31] Cameron McEwen: but they also need to be specified in themselves continually.
[2:07:37] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[2:07:38] Bob Dobbs: here's a neat response.
[2:07:40] Bob Dobbs: He said that Orpheus tuned the world,
[2:07:42] Bob Dobbs: and now we're back.
[2:07:43] Bob Dobbs: And he talked about,
[2:07:44] Bob Dobbs: in some interview,
[2:07:45] Bob Dobbs: I have it there somewhere,
[2:07:48] Bob Dobbs: he's talking to an executive in the car industry,
[2:07:51] Bob Dobbs: and he talks about...
[2:07:52] Bob Dobbs: Now anybody or someone who knows what McLuhan knows can be the new Orpheus.
[2:07:57] Bob Dobbs: Now what we have,
[2:07:58] Bob Dobbs: we have fallen Orpheuses.
[2:08:00] Bob Dobbs: People don't know what they're doing,
[2:08:03] Bob Dobbs: but they get put into the Orpheus position.
[2:08:06] Bob Dobbs: Bill Gates,
[2:08:07] Bob Dobbs: now it's
[2:08:08] Bob Dobbs: Larry Fink Berlin Wall Street.
[2:08:11] Bob Dobbs: There are new Orpheuses who are lousy at it and don't understand what the responsibilities are.
[2:08:16] Bob Dobbs: So you can retrieve the original conscious Orpheus,
[2:08:20] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan,
[2:08:20] Bob Dobbs: And...
[2:08:21] Bob Dobbs: and understand why he said,
[2:08:23] Bob Dobbs: give it to me,
[2:08:23] Bob Dobbs: I'll orchestrate the planet.
[2:08:25] Bob Dobbs: Because it's already being done by the assholes.
[2:08:30] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[2:08:30] Bob Dobbs: the George Soros and those guys.
[2:08:33] Bob Dobbs: And you can do it.
[2:08:35] Bob Dobbs: That's why it's happening.
[2:08:36] Bob Dobbs: And that's why the population thinks there's conspiracies happening everywhere.
[2:08:40] Bob Dobbs: Because it's actually able to be done.
[2:08:44] Bob Dobbs: The Orpheus factor is there.
[2:08:46] Bob Dobbs: But you can't put it in
[2:08:49] Bob Dobbs: 19th century conspiracy.
[2:08:50] Bob Dobbs: conspiracy terms you know you just end up being anti-semitic or something it's silly uh you've got it under McLuhan was presenting how to be a new kind of freemason correct yeah this is all correct good you won't hear it from anybody else you're the only one who could get it when i'm talking about um
[2:09:13] Cameron McEwen: we need to uh specify it so that uh more people understand it
[2:09:19] Cameron McEwen: and they can apply it.
[2:09:21] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:09:22] Cameron McEwen: Because,
[2:09:24] Cameron McEwen: as you say,
[2:09:25] Cameron McEwen: something like this is already being applied,
[2:09:29] Cameron McEwen: but disastrously.
[2:09:31] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:09:33] Cameron McEwen: So the idea needs to be transformed into something that's both more transparent and more...
[2:09:51] Cameron McEwen: applicable,
[2:09:52] Cameron McEwen: more useful.
[2:09:53] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:09:54] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[2:09:54] Bob Dobbs: that's why I'm always been doing it on the radio.
[2:09:58] Bob Dobbs: I'm always adapting it or seeing how to do it.
[2:10:03] Bob Dobbs: I've got different generations.
[2:10:04] Bob Dobbs: I've got many generations I've done this to.
[2:10:11] Bob Dobbs: It's a tiny operation,
[2:10:12] Bob Dobbs: but it can be a chaotic butterfly,
[2:10:14] Bob Dobbs: right?
[2:10:15] Bob Dobbs: It can be.
[2:10:15] Bob Dobbs: It can affect.
[2:10:16] Bob Dobbs: We don't know how much.
[2:10:18] Bob Dobbs: We are interacting with each other and influencing each other.
[2:10:22] Cameron McEwen: That's right.
[2:10:23] Cameron McEwen: That's right.
[2:10:24] Cameron McEwen: And it's not as if there's an alternative.
[2:10:29] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:10:29] Bob Dobbs: there's,
[2:10:31] Bob Dobbs: I mean,
[2:10:32] Bob Dobbs: it's not as if there is no alternative.
[2:10:34] Cameron McEwen: Correct.
[2:10:35] Cameron McEwen: That's exactly what I mean.
[2:10:37] Cameron McEwen: We've got to do what we've got to do.
[2:10:40] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[2:10:41] Bob Dobbs: And,
[2:10:41] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:10:42] Bob Dobbs: I've kept faithful at doing it.
[2:10:45] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[2:10:45] Bob Dobbs: I've got this iON...
[2:10:46] Bob Dobbs: factor,
[2:10:47] Bob Dobbs: which is a whole other thing,
[2:10:48] Bob Dobbs: and I'm glad to have something different to bounce off of.
[2:10:51] Bob Dobbs: And the change in matter is what our products are about.
[2:10:56] Bob Dobbs: Our products work tremendously because of these extra dimensions that are put in there.
[2:11:02] Bob Dobbs: And that's a whole other story,
[2:11:04] Bob Dobbs: but
[2:11:05] Bob Dobbs: I would say it was very fortunate to be living with someone who was a good doctor and could respond to the changes and have solutions through the last 40 years.
[2:11:16] Bob Dobbs: for when chronic fatigue came in,
[2:11:18] Bob Dobbs: when environmental allergies came in.
[2:11:21] Bob Dobbs: Then there was...
[2:11:23] Bob Dobbs: chronic fatigue,
[2:11:25] Bob Dobbs: and then immune deficiency.
[2:11:26] Bob Dobbs: She handled all of them through the 70s,
[2:11:29] Bob Dobbs: 80s,
[2:11:29] Bob Dobbs: and 90s.
[2:11:30] Bob Dobbs: And then we have this new really weird situation,
[2:11:33] Bob Dobbs: and she's got solutions for that.
[2:11:36] Bob Dobbs: She's always had solutions.
[2:11:37] Bob Dobbs: So I've watched her respond to the anti-environment that are happening and the changes in body percept that led to a lot of stress on people.
[2:11:49] Bob Dobbs: I could see that's another part of the chart.
[2:11:52] Bob Dobbs: I've got environmental allergies,
[2:11:53] Bob Dobbs: chronic fatigue.
[2:11:55] Bob Dobbs: I've got the medical problems that surface starting in the late 70s in response to each holeopathic environment.
[2:12:03] Bob Dobbs: So I had her experience to,
[2:12:06] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:12:06] Bob Dobbs: she was the thing in my lab I could observe.
[2:12:10] Bob Dobbs: And I was talking about this the other day on the show.
[2:12:14] Bob Dobbs: So in a way,
[2:12:16] Bob Dobbs: Carolyn was in the position of dealing with the effects immediately.
[2:12:22] Bob Dobbs: Patient population,
[2:12:23] Bob Dobbs: right?
[2:12:25] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[2:12:26] Cameron McEwen: I can buy that.
[2:12:27] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:12:28] Cameron McEwen: I can buy that.
[2:12:31] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan tried to use his seminars.
[2:12:33] Cameron McEwen: Yes.
[2:12:34] Bob Dobbs: He was doing that all the time.
[2:12:38] Bob Dobbs: He needed students.
[2:12:39] Bob Dobbs: He needed to have people come in and tell him what the effects are on the
[2:12:43] Bob Dobbs: 15-year-old.
[2:12:46] Bob Dobbs: Like he would say,
[2:12:47] Bob Dobbs: I learned from my students.
[2:12:48] Bob Dobbs: That's what he was doing.
[2:12:49] Bob Dobbs: He was studying everybody's symptoms.
[2:12:55] Cameron McEwen: All right.
[2:12:55] Cameron McEwen: So that's probably a very good way to end.
[2:12:59] Bob Dobbs: Yep.
[2:13:01] Cameron McEwen: So what we'll do next time is we will come back to start with your new consideration of McLuhan at this point in the book.
[2:13:11] Bob Dobbs: Yep.
[2:13:12] Bob Dobbs: Page 80.
[2:13:12] Cameron McEwen: And at least from my perspective,
[2:13:16] Cameron McEwen: what we have to understand is him not offering answers or fix.
[2:13:22] Cameron McEwen: categories,
[2:13:23] Cameron McEwen: but attempting probes.
[2:13:28] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:13:29] Bob Dobbs: and the new Orpheus.
[2:13:32] Bob Dobbs: In that sense,
[2:13:33] Bob Dobbs: he was always...
[2:13:34] Bob Dobbs: Somebody said,
[2:13:35] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:13:36] Bob Dobbs: all criticism is autobiographical.
[2:13:38] Bob Dobbs: All of McLuhan media calls,
[2:13:40] Bob Dobbs: it was autobiographical.
[2:13:41] Bob Dobbs: It was about what he was...
[2:13:42] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:13:42] Cameron McEwen: I agree with that.
[2:13:45] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[2:13:45] Bob Dobbs: we'll end with that point.
[2:13:46] Bob Dobbs: We'll start around page 80 next time.
[2:13:50] Cameron McEwen: Okay,
[2:13:50] Cameron McEwen: Bob.
[2:13:51] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:13:51] Bob Dobbs: great.
[2:13:51] Bob Dobbs: thanks a lot thank you ciao ciao alright talk to you soon yep look forward bye bye bye