Dialogue 56 — Transcript

[00:02] Bob Dobbs: Welcome,

[00:03] Bob Dobbs: this is

[00:04] Bob Dobbs: Cameron McEwen and Bob Dobbs with our dialogue about things I've created and things that

[00:12] Bob Dobbs: Ewen Cameron created.

[00:14] Bob Dobbs: And we're doing episode 56 today,

[00:18] Bob Dobbs: September 15th,

[00:19] Bob Dobbs: 2022.

[00:22] Bob Dobbs: So we're in my broadside,

[00:25] Bob Dobbs: my pamphlet about Trump.

[00:30] Bob Dobbs: You,

[00:30] Bob Dobbs: we didn't know about Trump.

[00:33] Bob Dobbs: It's actually about the tech body,

[00:34] Bob Dobbs: and we're on page 113.

[00:36] Bob Dobbs: That's where we left off.

[00:38] Bob Dobbs: And you go to the top there,

[00:40] Bob Dobbs: you'll see the oral part of my dissertation.

[00:44] Bob Dobbs: I'm talking,

[00:47] Bob Dobbs: not so precise,

[00:49] Bob Dobbs: and just trying to explain the precise quotes I had and the precise text I created.

[00:55] Bob Dobbs: So I say,

[00:56] Bob Dobbs: later...

[00:57] Bob Dobbs: In a book published in 1977,

[00:59] Bob Dobbs: City as Classroom,

[01:00] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan wrote,

[01:01] Bob Dobbs: quote,

[01:02] Bob Dobbs: a study of cliches,

[01:03] Bob Dobbs: a study of cliches,

[01:05] Bob Dobbs: which when pushed to extremes,

[01:06] Bob Dobbs: flipped into archetypes,

[01:08] Bob Dobbs: and vice versa.

[01:10] Bob Dobbs: So when he set up a dialectic,

[01:12] Bob Dobbs: two things,

[01:12] Bob Dobbs: like figure and ground,

[01:13] Bob Dobbs: medium slash message,

[01:15] Bob Dobbs: cliche slash archetype,

[01:16] Bob Dobbs: he always eventually had them merge,

[01:18] Bob Dobbs: because that's what happens to the brothers in Finnegans Wake.

[01:22] Bob Dobbs: There are sections where you think you're reading about one of the twin brothers,

[01:25] Bob Dobbs: and he's being described as a woman.

[01:26] Bob Dobbs: and a very different character from the original shim character in the end it was all scattered excuse me you

[01:42] Bob Dobbs: okay yeah i had to take a drink uh-huh and i'd take a whiskey there okay just like in the what was i saying uh you were reading

[01:56] Cameron McEwen: The middle of the paragraph.

[01:58] Bob Dobbs: In the end,

[01:59] Bob Dobbs: well,

[01:59] Bob Dobbs: I'll read the previous sentence again.

[02:01] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[02:02] Bob Dobbs: There are sections where you think you're reading about one of the twin brothers,

[02:05] Bob Dobbs: and he's being described as a woman and a very different character from the original Shem character.

[02:11] Bob Dobbs: In the end,

[02:12] Bob Dobbs: it was all scattered,

[02:13] Bob Dobbs: and he didn't know who anybody was or what anybody was.

[02:18] Bob Dobbs: That confusion is echoed by McLuhan.

[02:21] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[02:21] Bob Dobbs: that's interesting,

[02:21] Bob Dobbs: Elijah,

[02:22] Bob Dobbs: what you said about the City as Classroom.

[02:25] Bob Dobbs: This is 70s confusion by McLuhan,

[02:28] Bob Dobbs: but that's a side issue for a minute.

[02:30] Bob Dobbs: That confusion is echoed by McLuhan saying in November 71 that he couldn't tell the difference between the medium and the message anymore.

[02:38] Bob Dobbs: What you've got is,

[02:40] Bob Dobbs: for a certain kind of literate person,

[02:42] Bob Dobbs: the 60s and 70s were boring.

[02:45] Bob Dobbs: He,

[02:45] Bob Dobbs: she,

[02:46] Bob Dobbs: he slash she didn't like pop culture.

[02:48] Bob Dobbs: So I guess I'm talking about the literate person of the 60s,

[02:53] Bob Dobbs: 70s.

[02:53] Bob Dobbs: What you've got is...

[02:54] Bob Dobbs: for a certain kind of literate person,

[02:56] Bob Dobbs: the 60s and 70s were boring.

[02:58] Bob Dobbs: He,

[02:59] Bob Dobbs: she didn't like pop culture.

[03:00] Bob Dobbs: Some would say it was all surface,

[03:02] Bob Dobbs: in quotes,

[03:03] Bob Dobbs: all surface,

[03:03] Bob Dobbs: and no substance.

[03:05] Bob Dobbs: But tribal people,

[03:06] Bob Dobbs: quote,

[03:06] Bob Dobbs: get off on anything.

[03:08] Bob Dobbs: One could say that distracts them.

[03:10] Bob Dobbs: They wouldn't consider it distraction,

[03:12] Bob Dobbs: and that's a literate bias to say it is.

[03:15] Bob Dobbs: Anything you want to say yet?

[03:18] Cameron McEwen: Not really,

[03:19] Cameron McEwen: but I would like to just briefly go back to the previous.

[03:24] Cameron McEwen: paragraph where you say McLuhan would make outrageous statements to get you thinking.

[03:30] Cameron McEwen: He called that probing.

[03:33] Cameron McEwen: I think that that's kind of an invention that was made.

[03:40] Cameron McEwen: That idea is an invention that was made by Eric and others to try to explain why McLuhan at one point would say one thing and at another point would say another thing.

[03:55] Cameron McEwen: they would say,

[03:56] Cameron McEwen: well,

[03:56] Cameron McEwen: that's

[03:57] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan trying to get people thinking.

[04:00] Cameron McEwen: It's his teaching technique.

[04:06] Cameron McEwen: But

[04:08] Cameron McEwen: I think that's,

[04:12] Cameron McEwen: they're trying to excuse something that doesn't need excusing.

[04:18] Cameron McEwen: It needs to be thought about.

[04:21] Cameron McEwen: It needs to be the contradictions and apparent confusion need to be thought into.

[04:33] Cameron McEwen: If they're just taken as contradictions that

[04:36] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan is using,

[04:39] Cameron McEwen: that takes McLuhan into surface away.

[04:44] Cameron McEwen: So

[04:45] Cameron McEwen: I don't like that whole idea that

[04:49] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan was...

[04:52] Cameron McEwen: trying to get people to think through his probing.

[04:57] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[04:57] Bob Dobbs: no,

[04:57] Bob Dobbs: that's a very interesting point.

[04:59] Bob Dobbs: He does say in 1966 in New York Times,

[05:03] Bob Dobbs: they say,

[05:03] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan finally exposes himself or reveals himself.

[05:07] Bob Dobbs: And he's under pressure and he's asked,

[05:10] Bob Dobbs: he just spoke at the...

[05:12] Bob Dobbs: corporation,

[05:12] Bob Dobbs: the Can Corporation or something,

[05:15] Bob Dobbs: and he says,

[05:16] Bob Dobbs: well,

[05:16] Bob Dobbs: I'm just trying to get people to think.

[05:18] Bob Dobbs: He said that.

[05:19] Bob Dobbs: Or they quote,

[05:20] Bob Dobbs: who knows who he said it,

[05:21] Bob Dobbs: but they're saying he said it.

[05:23] Bob Dobbs: Right,

[05:23] Cameron McEwen: but then we have to,

[05:25] Cameron McEwen: yeah,

[05:25] Cameron McEwen: but when

[05:29] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan says he's trying to get people to think,

[05:32] Cameron McEwen: that can be taken in many,

[05:34] Cameron McEwen: many different ways.

[05:36] Cameron McEwen: And the idea that he says...

[05:41] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[05:41] Cameron McEwen: A at one moment and not A at another moment.

[05:45] Cameron McEwen: And so we take that,

[05:48] Cameron McEwen: quote unquote,

[05:48] Cameron McEwen: obvious contradiction.

[05:51] Cameron McEwen: And then we think about that,

[05:55] Cameron McEwen: quote unquote,

[05:56] Cameron McEwen: obvious contradiction.

[05:58] Cameron McEwen: I think that's nonsense.

[05:59] Cameron McEwen: But in 1966,

[06:03] Cameron McEwen: that was when

[06:04] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan mind was not working very well,

[06:08] Cameron McEwen: number one.

[06:09] Cameron McEwen: And number two,

[06:12] Cameron McEwen: if he was being coherent when he said that to the

[06:16] Cameron McEwen: New York Times,

[06:17] Cameron McEwen: then what we have to do is try to think about what he means by making people think,

[06:24] Cameron McEwen: or at least prompting people to think.

[06:28] Cameron McEwen: That's something very different from looking for contradictions or something like that.

[06:36] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[06:36] Bob Dobbs: In The Medium is the Massage,

[06:38] Bob Dobbs: he says,

[06:38] Bob Dobbs: as long as there's a willingness to not think,

[06:40] Bob Dobbs: but to contemplate what's going on.

[06:43] Bob Dobbs: People sometimes like to point that out,

[06:45] Bob Dobbs: that it's not just conceptualizing.

[06:49] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[06:49] Bob Dobbs: Not that meaning of think.

[06:51] Bob Dobbs: So,

[06:52] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[06:52] Bob Dobbs: well,

[06:52] Bob Dobbs: that's very interesting to question the cliche of probing.

[06:56] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[06:56] Bob Dobbs: that's almost what he's known for,

[06:59] Bob Dobbs: what I call the Madison Avenue view of McLuhan.

[07:01] Bob Dobbs: He invented probing,

[07:03] Bob Dobbs: you know?

[07:03] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[07:05] Cameron McEwen: I agree with you that it's the Madison Avenue approach.

[07:09] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[07:10] Cameron McEwen: that's a good phrase for that.

[07:12] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[07:12] Bob Dobbs: all that we know about McLuhan and that people work with is the Madison Avenue icon.

[07:18] Cameron McEwen: That's right,

[07:19] Cameron McEwen: but we have to remember that the distinction between Madison Avenue and the

[07:25] Cameron McEwen: Academy falls away.

[07:31] Bob Dobbs: What falls away?

[07:33] Cameron McEwen: That distinction.

[07:34] Cameron McEwen: Madison Avenue and the Academy are basically the same thing.

[07:39] Bob Dobbs: Yep.

[07:40] Bob Dobbs: So,

[07:40] Bob Dobbs: okay.

[07:42] Bob Dobbs: So we were saying there,

[07:46] Bob Dobbs: anything else you wanted?

[07:46] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[07:47] Bob Dobbs: so you just wanted to point out about probing.

[07:49] Bob Dobbs: So you did that.

[07:50] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[07:51] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[07:52] Bob Dobbs: so now we're down here.

[07:54] Bob Dobbs: That confused,

[07:56] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[07:57] Bob Dobbs: did that.

[07:58] Bob Dobbs: They wouldn't consider it distraction,

[08:00] Bob Dobbs: and that's a literate bias to say it is.

[08:02] Bob Dobbs: The new technologies,

[08:03] Bob Dobbs: like the instant replay or Sony Walkman,

[08:06] Bob Dobbs: any new technology today is a cliché probe.

[08:10] Bob Dobbs: If you talk to computer experts,

[08:11] Bob Dobbs: they'll say,

[08:12] Bob Dobbs: quote,

[08:12] Bob Dobbs: they haven't made a new invention in 50 years,

[08:14] Bob Dobbs: unquote.

[08:15] Bob Dobbs: You're working with the same template and just making them handier or tinier.

[08:20] Bob Dobbs: All the technologies of the 20th century and into the

[08:23] Bob Dobbs: 21st century are clichés,

[08:25] Bob Dobbs: clichés and quotes.

[08:26] Bob Dobbs: And McLuhan used to say that more invention happened in the

[08:29] Bob Dobbs: 19th century.

[08:30] Bob Dobbs: Many people would respond...

[08:32] Bob Dobbs: No,

[08:32] Bob Dobbs: no,

[08:32] Bob Dobbs: they didn't invent as much as we invented.

[08:34] Bob Dobbs: We had all kinds of abundant forms,

[08:36] Bob Dobbs: cars,

[08:36] Bob Dobbs: movies,

[08:37] Bob Dobbs: everything,

[08:38] Bob Dobbs: unquote.

[08:39] Bob Dobbs: But they were cliché,

[08:40] Bob Dobbs: and then I say,

[08:41] Bob Dobbs: but they were cliché environments,

[08:43] Bob Dobbs: repeating themselves,

[08:44] Bob Dobbs: and were actually not new breakthroughs.

[08:46] Bob Dobbs: Completely radical changes in technology is what happened in the

[08:49] Bob Dobbs: 19th century.

[08:51] Bob Dobbs: They weren't in a computer matrix and having variations of the same template being sold to them.

[08:56] Bob Dobbs: You went from steam engine to telephone.

[08:58] Bob Dobbs: A telephone,

[08:59] Bob Dobbs: where did that come from?

[09:00] Bob Dobbs: The whole electric environment was a big surprise.

[09:04] Bob Dobbs: Then I go into Hugh Kenner,

[09:06] Bob Dobbs: in his book The Mechanic Muse,

[09:07] Bob Dobbs: talked about the period just before electricity was discovered.

[09:11] Bob Dobbs: Kenner,

[09:11] Bob Dobbs: are you familiar with this part?

[09:13] Bob Dobbs: Do you know what Kenner talks about?

[09:18] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[09:18] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[09:19] Cameron McEwen: obviously I'm familiar with Hugh Kenner,

[09:21] Cameron McEwen: but I haven't read

[09:24] Cameron McEwen: Hugh Kenner in

[09:26] Cameron McEwen: 20 or 30 years.

[09:28] Bob Dobbs: We'll see if this sounds familiar.

[09:29] Bob Dobbs: Kenner describes these elaborate,

[09:31] Bob Dobbs: amazing,

[09:32] Bob Dobbs: Self-Condemned contraptions.

[09:34] Bob Dobbs: You had pulleys and levers connecting things.

[09:36] Bob Dobbs: That's visual space and kinetic space.

[09:39] Bob Dobbs: They were useless,

[09:39] Bob Dobbs: but looked pretty impressive for complicated connecting of levers,

[09:43] Bob Dobbs: strings,

[09:43] Bob Dobbs: and pulleys.

[09:44] Bob Dobbs: Then the electric environment,

[09:45] Bob Dobbs: the telegraph comes in,

[09:47] Bob Dobbs: and you're communicating,

[09:49] Bob Dobbs: and you can't see what's doing the communication.

[09:52] Bob Dobbs: That's a completely shocking switch from the visual mechanical contraptions.

[09:57] Bob Dobbs: that it was the final hyper-connecting of things,

[09:59] Bob Dobbs: you know?

[10:01] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[10:01] Cameron McEwen: he talks about this when he's talking about Bucky Fuller.

[10:07] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[10:09] Cameron McEwen: He uses

[10:11] Cameron McEwen: Fuller to talk about this kind of transition.

[10:15] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[10:16] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[10:16] Bob Dobbs: so then

[10:18] Bob Dobbs: I coined the phrase mythic stages.

[10:21] Bob Dobbs: So I put that in quotes.

[10:22] Bob Dobbs: Mythic stages are the environments that people lived in,

[10:25] Bob Dobbs: and they kept getting Kostelanetz by newer media,

[10:27] Bob Dobbs: new environments,

[10:29] Bob Dobbs: and people didn't fully understand what electricity was and how these environments worked.

[10:33] Bob Dobbs: Traditionally,

[10:34] Bob Dobbs: a myth was a story that talked about a complex process.

[10:37] Bob Dobbs: To the litter person,

[10:38] Bob Dobbs: it sounded like a lie or a fantasy.

[10:40] Bob Dobbs: But you need to understand that myth summarizes,

[10:42] Bob Dobbs: glosses over,

[10:43] Bob Dobbs: integrates a complex process.

[10:45] Bob Dobbs: It leaves out a lot of the details,

[10:47] Bob Dobbs: the black and white chiaroscuro.

[10:50] Bob Dobbs: And I put that in quotes,

[10:51] Bob Dobbs: chiaroscuro.

[10:52] Bob Dobbs: So we live mythically,

[10:53] Bob Dobbs: that's in quotes.

[10:55] Bob Dobbs: Most people like myself,

[10:56] Bob Dobbs: we don't know how computers work or anything about them.

[10:58] Bob Dobbs: We cope with all the information in the news that comes at us as we come up with a slogan about,

[11:04] Bob Dobbs: for example,

[11:05] Bob Dobbs: Trump an idiot.

[11:06] Bob Dobbs: That's how we sum the day's news.

[11:09] Bob Dobbs: Trump an idiot.

[11:11] Bob Dobbs: And then I go,

[11:12] Bob Dobbs: and that covers two weeks'

[11:13] Bob Dobbs: worth of stories.

[11:14] Bob Dobbs: That's mythic,

[11:15] Bob Dobbs: I say.

[11:16] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[11:16] Bob Dobbs: that's interesting I say that.

[11:17] Bob Dobbs: That's a mythic process.

[11:18] Bob Dobbs: Hmm.

[11:20] Bob Dobbs: Forgot about this point.

[11:21] Bob Dobbs: It doesn't mean it's false.

[11:23] Bob Dobbs: It means it's a complex implosion into a suitable capsule,

[11:26] Bob Dobbs: encapsulation.

[11:27] Bob Dobbs: But as the anti-environment unfolded and changed,

[11:29] Bob Dobbs: each phase was a mythic stage.

[11:32] Bob Dobbs: It's an environment that you leapt off of,

[11:34] Bob Dobbs: that you leapt off of.

[11:37] Bob Dobbs: If you look up the tetrad for the credit card.

[11:39] Bob Dobbs: In Laws of Media,

[11:40] Bob Dobbs: it talks about the global theater.

[11:42] Bob Dobbs: What is the stage of this theater?

[11:46] Bob Dobbs: And I'm asking that rhetorically because the answer is in the book,

[11:50] Bob Dobbs: in the Tetrad.

[11:51] Bob Dobbs: The stage is the credit card.

[11:53] Bob Dobbs: The credit card allows you to hop from one technological culture to another,

[11:57] Bob Dobbs: from one mythic stage to another.

[11:59] Bob Dobbs: So the stage does not look like a stage.

[12:02] Bob Dobbs: It looks like a credit card,

[12:03] Bob Dobbs: which is an electronic,

[12:05] Bob Dobbs: they have in quotes,

[12:05] Bob Dobbs: an electronic pulse grabber.

[12:08] Bob Dobbs: One slices it through and it allows something,

[12:11] Bob Dobbs: slides it through and it allows something.

[12:14] Bob Dobbs: That's an interesting bunch of stuff there.

[12:17] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.

[12:20] Cameron McEwen: I don't know if you remember,

[12:21] Cameron McEwen: but

[12:22] Cameron McEwen: I think in the last conversation we had,

[12:25] Cameron McEwen: and maybe in the preceding one as well,

[12:29] Cameron McEwen: I've been talking about shortcuts and how all technologies are shortcuts,

[12:37] Cameron McEwen: which

[12:38] Cameron McEwen: allow much greater efficiency or much greater speed or something,

[12:43] Cameron McEwen: but they always leave stuff out.

[12:46] Cameron McEwen: So there's,

[12:46] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[12:48] Cameron McEwen: the way up and the way down is the law that rules all of this stuff.

[12:54] Cameron McEwen: And what you're talking about here as a pro...

[12:58] Bob Dobbs: A Maritain is a shortcut.

[13:00] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.

[13:01] Bob Dobbs: I see.

[13:01] Bob Dobbs: That's neat.

[13:03] Cameron McEwen: And we always are living one.

[13:06] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[13:08] Bob Dobbs: So do you write about that?

[13:11] Cameron McEwen: No,

[13:11] Cameron McEwen: I haven't.

[13:12] Cameron McEwen: Not yet.

[13:13] Cameron McEwen: But that's an interesting take on death,

[13:15] Cameron McEwen: right?

[13:17] Cameron McEwen: If human beings are the beings that live through shortcuts,

[13:22] Cameron McEwen: then the inevitable end is death.

[13:25] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[13:25] Bob Dobbs: that's the final shortcut?

[13:27] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[13:28] Bob Dobbs: The mythic stage.

[13:33] Bob Dobbs: The electric pulse grabber.

[13:36] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[13:37] Cameron McEwen: So,

[13:37] Cameron McEwen: and this.

[13:39] Cameron McEwen: on this reading that we're doing,

[13:42] Cameron McEwen: when you're born,

[13:43] Cameron McEwen: you have a certain amount of credit.

[13:46] Cameron McEwen: And that can be called your credit card.

[13:48] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[13:48] Cameron McEwen: And when the credit card runs out or becomes invalid,

[13:54] Cameron McEwen: when the date doesn't work anymore.

[13:56] Cameron McEwen: Yes,

[13:58] Bob Dobbs: you're so obsolete,

[13:59] Bob Dobbs: so out of tune,

[14:00] Bob Dobbs: so out of date,

[14:02] Bob Dobbs: you're tossed aside.

[14:03] Cameron McEwen: That's it.

[14:05] Bob Dobbs: Or you leap off.

[14:06] Bob Dobbs: You leap.

[14:08] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[14:09] Bob Dobbs: so then I juxtapose a good quote from the cover sleeve on the back of Take Today,

[14:16] Bob Dobbs: the Executive's Dropout,

[14:17] Bob Dobbs: 1972.

[14:19] Bob Dobbs: So I say this,

[14:20] Bob Dobbs: or I quote McLuhan and Barry Nevitt.

[14:24] Bob Dobbs: Half the world today is engaged in keeping the other half under surveillance,

[14:28] Bob Dobbs: and under surveillance is in quotes.

[14:30] Bob Dobbs: This,

[14:30] Bob Dobbs: in fact,

[14:31] Bob Dobbs: is the hang-up of the age of software and information,

[14:35] Bob Dobbs: software in quotes.

[14:37] Cameron McEwen: Since 1972,

[14:39] Cameron McEwen: of course,

[14:39] Cameron McEwen: you could no longer say half the world.

[14:42] Cameron McEwen: You'd have to say that all of the world is engaged in keeping the rest.

[14:49] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[14:49] Bob Dobbs: everybody's keeping everybody else.

[14:51] Bob Dobbs: Everybody is surveilling everybody else.

[14:53] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[14:54] Bob Dobbs: one to many,

[14:55] Bob Dobbs: many to one.

[14:56] Bob Dobbs: So in the preceding hardware age,

[14:59] Bob Dobbs: and that's in quotes,

[15:00] Bob Dobbs: the haves,

[15:01] Bob Dobbs: that's in quotes,

[15:01] Bob Dobbs: of the world had kept the have-nots,

[15:05] Bob Dobbs: in quotes,

[15:06] Bob Dobbs: under.

[15:06] Bob Dobbs: surveillance in quotes.

[15:07] Bob Dobbs: Very interesting how they use the quotes here.

[15:10] Bob Dobbs: In the preceding hardware age,

[15:12] Bob Dobbs: the haves of the world had kept the have-nots under surveillance.

[15:15] Bob Dobbs: This old beat for flat foots has now been relegated to the world of popular entertainment.

[15:19] Bob Dobbs: Then in italics,

[15:21] Bob Dobbs: the police state is now a work of art,

[15:24] Bob Dobbs: a bureaucratic ballet of undulated sirens.

[15:28] Bob Dobbs: That is a way of saying that the espionage activities of our multitudinous manhunters and crediting agencies,

[15:34] Bob Dobbs: crediting in quotes,

[15:35] Bob Dobbs: are not only archaic,

[15:37] Bob Dobbs: but redundant and irrelevant.

[15:39] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[15:40] Bob Dobbs: that's where he says,

[15:43] Bob Dobbs: well,

[15:43] Bob Dobbs: he does say it right here.

[15:45] Bob Dobbs: It all goes into the popular entertainment,

[15:47] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[15:47] Bob Dobbs: Mission Impossible,

[15:48] Bob Dobbs: spy versus spy.

[15:49] Bob Dobbs: Every other show for the last 60 years,

[15:52] Bob Dobbs: it's this surveillance as obsolete activity,

[15:58] Bob Dobbs: and therefore it's a pastime as art form.

[16:01] Bob Dobbs: So what is going on?

[16:03] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[16:04] Bob Dobbs: if that's people's worst fears about 1984,

[16:07] Bob Dobbs: it's just a work of art,

[16:09] Bob Dobbs: then where we're at is really important vision McLuhan had about actually how,

[16:14] Bob Dobbs: quote,

[16:15] Bob Dobbs: liberated,

[16:15] Bob Dobbs: autonomous.

[16:17] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if you would say Posthuman or Posthuman,

[16:20] Bob Dobbs: that people were.

[16:21] Bob Dobbs: That's what people can't handle,

[16:23] Bob Dobbs: the incredible leeway they've got to live any kind of life and mix any kind of media,

[16:30] Bob Dobbs: mythic stage.

[16:31] Bob Dobbs: That's what's incredible,

[16:33] Bob Dobbs: right?

[16:33] Bob Dobbs: And that's not celebrated.

[16:36] Cameron McEwen: There's a lot of things involved here.

[16:40] Cameron McEwen: One of them is what McLuhan says elsewhere about hijacking.

[16:45] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[16:47] Cameron McEwen: So,

[16:48] Cameron McEwen: and that relates back to a stage that we've been talking about here today.

[16:59] Cameron McEwen: The world has become a stage in a whole new sense that we hardly understand.

[17:07] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[17:08] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan,

[17:08] Bob Dobbs: you know what he said?

[17:10] Bob Dobbs: I think it's in Innis Harold.

[17:12] Bob Dobbs: So the cliche is,

[17:14] Bob Dobbs: all the world's a stage,

[17:16] Bob Dobbs: right?

[17:18] Bob Dobbs: He flipped it.

[17:20] Bob Dobbs: All the stage is a world.

[17:23] Bob Dobbs: So that means that the stage,

[17:24] Bob Dobbs: the traditional

[17:26] Bob Dobbs: Gutenberg stage,

[17:28] Bob Dobbs: is only one world of many worlds.

[17:30] Bob Dobbs: So there's other,

[17:32] Bob Dobbs: maybe that's what I was trying to get at with mythic stages.

[17:36] Bob Dobbs: There's another level of platforming going on.

[17:40] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[17:41] Cameron McEwen: So you know that in my blog,

[17:45] Cameron McEwen: I continually...

[17:46] Cameron McEwen: say that one of the pathways to thinking is pluralizing.

[17:53] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[17:54] Cameron McEwen: And what you're saying here is exactly that,

[17:58] Cameron McEwen: that we need to pluralize everything,

[18:01] Cameron McEwen: stages,

[18:02] Cameron McEwen: worlds,

[18:04] Cameron McEwen: universes.

[18:05] Bob Dobbs: The photographs in our mind that cinematic media has put inside us.

[18:12] Bob Dobbs: There's a whole,

[18:13] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[18:14] Bob Dobbs: world of blockchain of imagery.

[18:16] Bob Dobbs: That's obsolete.

[18:18] Bob Dobbs: Correct.

[18:18] Bob Dobbs: And you have to multiply them.

[18:20] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[18:20] Bob Dobbs: that's something I often talk about.

[18:22] Bob Dobbs: I don't say it in that way,

[18:23] Bob Dobbs: but

[18:25] Bob Dobbs: I say your images that you're working with,

[18:29] Bob Dobbs: you have to see through them.

[18:31] Bob Dobbs: And a good way is to start imagining them multiplying,

[18:34] Bob Dobbs: or they're not as solid as you think.

[18:37] Bob Dobbs: So the global village and global theater,

[18:39] Bob Dobbs: they're very old-fashioned icons.

[18:42] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[18:43] Cameron McEwen: And what that thinking...

[18:45] Cameron McEwen: introduces is the maelstrom.

[18:48] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[18:50] Cameron McEwen: When,

[18:51] Cameron McEwen: quote-unquote,

[18:51] Cameron McEwen: you start thinking through the chain of images that you were just talking about,

[19:00] Cameron McEwen: it's not only the image that becomes or the chain of images that becomes questionable,

[19:05] Cameron McEwen: so does the you.

[19:07] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[19:07] Cameron McEwen: And that pathway of thinking then generates...

[19:14] Cameron McEwen: the maelstrom,

[19:16] Cameron McEwen: or better said,

[19:18] Cameron McEwen: it realizes that it's already in the maelstrom.

[19:21] Cameron McEwen: And then the whole connubial of

[19:26] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan thought lies in the question of how to navigate the maelstrom.

[19:33] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[19:34] Bob Dobbs: so somebody quoted

[19:37] Bob Dobbs: Descent into the Maelstrom.

[19:39] Bob Dobbs: It might have been that New Yorker,

[19:41] Bob Dobbs: Ezra Klein writer.

[19:43] Bob Dobbs: And

[19:45] Bob Dobbs: Clinton posted,

[19:46] Bob Dobbs: he said,

[19:47] Bob Dobbs: no,

[19:47] Bob Dobbs: no,

[19:47] Bob Dobbs: it's the red mask.

[19:49] Bob Dobbs: I don't know that story.

[19:50] Bob Dobbs: You know the

[19:51] Bob Dobbs: Egg Round Poll story about the red mask?

[19:54] Bob Dobbs: No.

[19:55] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[19:55] Bob Dobbs: so he's discovered something.

[19:57] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if McLuhan wrote it in the 40s or he's read into it himself,

[20:00] Bob Dobbs: so I'll have to ask him what he meant,

[20:03] Bob Dobbs: the red mask.

[20:03] Bob Dobbs: So he's saying there's another story that gets mixed up with the maelstrom.

[20:08] Bob Dobbs: But let me see.

[20:09] Bob Dobbs: The,

[20:11] Bob Dobbs: so...

[20:12] Cameron McEwen: Some people...

[20:14] Cameron McEwen: Poe had more than one story about the maelstrom.

[20:18] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[20:19] Bob Dobbs: so...

[20:23] Bob Dobbs: So people,

[20:24] Bob Dobbs: I've seen people say,

[20:25] Bob Dobbs: well,

[20:26] Bob Dobbs: conscious,

[20:26] Bob Dobbs: most people today,

[20:27] Bob Dobbs: their consciousness is a pinhead.

[20:30] Bob Dobbs: What that would be,

[20:31] Bob Dobbs: would be one or two images that they hold on to for their image of their self.

[20:39] Bob Dobbs: Very limited image of what their self is.

[20:42] Bob Dobbs: Maybe vulnerable and then can be changed immediately,

[20:44] Bob Dobbs: so you're subject to the fads and the new...

[20:49] Bob Dobbs: trends in sense-making,

[20:50] Bob Dobbs: but there's so many images that you're actually made up of,

[20:55] Bob Dobbs: I call bodies,

[20:56] Bob Dobbs: that we hide from that because you can't find yourself in that maelstrom.

[21:06] Bob Dobbs: So we retreat to a couple of short images or little icons.

[21:12] Bob Dobbs: Go ahead.

[21:14] Cameron McEwen: The person that investigated this

[21:19] Cameron McEwen: how can I say,

[21:23] Cameron McEwen: most influentially,

[21:24] Cameron McEwen: I guess I could say,

[21:25] Cameron McEwen: is Carl Jung.

[21:28] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan read Jung already in the

[21:31] Cameron McEwen: 1930s and talked about him quite a bit in the

[21:35] Cameron McEwen: 1940s.

[21:36] Cameron McEwen: So put in Jungian terms,

[21:40] Cameron McEwen: the popular

[21:46] Cameron McEwen: identity of a person in the world is the persona.

[21:51] Cameron McEwen: It's the mask that is put out there.

[21:55] Cameron McEwen: But then behind the persona is what

[22:00] Cameron McEwen: Jung called the self.

[22:02] Cameron McEwen: And the self is this dynamic body of archetypes that are imposing themselves um

[22:15] Cameron McEwen: against each other and onto the stage of the persona.

[22:23] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[22:23] Bob Dobbs: and

[22:24] Bob Dobbs: I'd call that inventory of images almost anthropological.

[22:29] Bob Dobbs: So you had the man,

[22:30] Bob Dobbs: the woman,

[22:31] Bob Dobbs: the this,

[22:31] Bob Dobbs: the that.

[22:32] Bob Dobbs: He had more in the human scale,

[22:34] Bob Dobbs: chemical body imagery.

[22:36] Bob Dobbs: And what Joyce did was added machines as imageries or archetypes of the person.

[22:44] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[22:44] Bob Dobbs: You get that?

[22:45] Bob Dobbs: Jung didn't include machine images.

[22:50] Bob Dobbs: So that's where Marshall used spinning its weight to get Pat to go around Jung by calling the technologies archetypes of the social unconscious.

[23:03] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[23:04] Cameron McEwen: this is something I'll have to give some thought to.

[23:09] Cameron McEwen: It sounds to me like it needs to be questioned a bit,

[23:12] Cameron McEwen: but

[23:13] Cameron McEwen: I think it's a good insight.

[23:14] Cameron McEwen: For sure.

[23:15] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[23:16] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[23:16] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[23:16] Bob Dobbs: just taking that phrase,

[23:18] Bob Dobbs: archetypes of the social unconscious,

[23:19] Bob Dobbs: that's pretty interesting.

[23:22] Bob Dobbs: And then you use the archetypes that Jung uses.

[23:26] Bob Dobbs: And then Marshall gets on there and says,

[23:28] Bob Dobbs: Finnegans Wake is about the media as characters in the quote novel or in the book.

[23:34] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[23:35] Cameron McEwen: But there is a distinct flavor of Jungian archetypes to McLuhan use of media,

[23:43] Cameron McEwen: number one.

[23:45] Bob Dobbs: I missed a word.

[23:51] Cameron McEwen: There's a distinct flavor,

[23:53] Cameron McEwen: I said,

[23:54] Cameron McEwen: of Jung's archetypes to

[23:57] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan use of media.

[24:00] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[24:01] Bob Dobbs: so media archetypes,

[24:02] Bob Dobbs: and you're saying derived from Jung.

[24:05] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[24:05] Cameron McEwen: not derived,

[24:06] Cameron McEwen: but...

[24:07] Bob Dobbs: Parallel.

[24:08] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[24:09] Cameron McEwen: or there's,

[24:12] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[24:13] Cameron McEwen: how thought...

[24:14] Cameron McEwen: works and how it works over time is a very complicated thing.

[24:19] Cameron McEwen: Obviously,

[24:19] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan wasn't only reading

[24:22] Cameron McEwen: Pound, he was reading a hundred other people.

[24:25] Cameron McEwen: And it was a very complex cloud.

[24:29] Cameron McEwen: But,

[24:30] Cameron McEwen: for example,

[24:31] Cameron McEwen: you use the term social unconscious.

[24:34] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[24:34] Cameron McEwen: But that,

[24:35] Cameron McEwen: obviously,

[24:37] Cameron McEwen: there's some input from what

[24:41] Cameron McEwen: Jung called the collective unconscious.

[24:43] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[24:43] Cameron McEwen: in that idea.

[24:45] Cameron McEwen: So certainly McLuhan is not a Jungian in any sort of simple sense,

[24:52] Cameron McEwen: but McLuhan was reading

[24:56] Cameron McEwen: Jung,

[24:57] Cameron McEwen: Freud, and Adler in the

[25:00] Cameron McEwen: 1930s and 40s.

[25:01] Cameron McEwen: He was applying it to himself.

[25:03] Cameron McEwen: He was recommending these readings to his brother.

[25:07] Cameron McEwen: So this is a side of McLuhan that people don't talk about,

[25:12] Cameron McEwen: don't know anything about.

[25:13] Cameron McEwen: But it's something that needs to be thought about.

[25:17] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[25:17] Bob Dobbs: and he,

[25:18] Bob Dobbs: though,

[25:19] Bob Dobbs: come up with a collective consciousness.

[25:22] Bob Dobbs: That was moving past the unconscious.

[25:23] Bob Dobbs: The unconscious was the Gutenbergian flag heap that was marketed as and created industrial wealth,

[25:31] Bob Dobbs: right?

[25:32] Bob Dobbs: The marketing of the Gutenberg unconscious is where wealth came from.

[25:36] Bob Dobbs: But there was an ongoing collective consciousness that everybody was hypnotized by and demanding to be in touch with all the time,

[25:44] Bob Dobbs: just by turning on the media to see what the media,

[25:48] Bob Dobbs: what the content was doing.

[25:49] Bob Dobbs: doing but the main action was you got to turn it on and be in that new space that's a collective consciousness now it's numbing and so there has to be a new way of making you conscious of the collective consciousness you know what i mean that's what McLuhan was trying to do yeah

[26:05] Cameron McEwen: but um just go back a bit because um um you you brought in the word numbing yeah um how how does how does numbing work?

[26:18] Cameron McEwen: with tuning into the social consciousness.

[26:22] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[26:23] Bob Dobbs: the social unconscious is a phrase on page 31 of

[26:27] Bob Dobbs: Counterblast, right?

[26:29] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[26:30] Bob Dobbs: I'm trying to quote the book.

[26:32] Bob Dobbs: So,

[26:34] Bob Dobbs: you take the fad of people meditating all at the same time around the planet.

[26:39] Bob Dobbs: Have you ever heard about that fad?

[26:43] Cameron McEwen: No,

[26:43] Cameron McEwen: but I can imagine it.

[26:45] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[26:45] Bob Dobbs: So,

[26:45] Bob Dobbs: people...

[26:46] Bob Dobbs: They take their chemical body,

[26:47] Bob Dobbs: physical body,

[26:48] Bob Dobbs: and they all try to sync it up.

[26:50] Bob Dobbs: That is a rearview mirror image of the collective consciousness.

[26:55] Bob Dobbs: They're numb to the electric implosion,

[26:59] Bob Dobbs: the electric node,

[27:00] Bob Dobbs: or wherever that space is,

[27:01] Bob Dobbs: whatever that space is,

[27:03] Bob Dobbs: that we're really engaging.

[27:06] Bob Dobbs: What I call the chip body,

[27:07] Bob Dobbs: or the TV body,

[27:09] Bob Dobbs: or the Global Membrane.

[27:13] Bob Dobbs: They think they're creating a Global Membrane.

[27:15] Bob Dobbs: through chemical body thought or imagery or visualization.

[27:21] Bob Dobbs: And they're numb to a deeper unity that's happening or merger.

[27:27] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[27:28] Cameron McEwen: So that gets back to what we were just saying about the maelstrom.

[27:33] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[27:33] Cameron McEwen: And that is that the whole idea that you can identify a medium directly

[27:47] Cameron McEwen: like these people meditating and they're going to meditate together and they're going to change the world through that or something.

[27:55] Cameron McEwen: That depends upon some sort of hypostasis of a medium,

[28:03] Cameron McEwen: namely this collective meditation.

[28:07] Cameron McEwen: But whenever you think of a medium,

[28:12] Cameron McEwen: as you were just saying,

[28:13] Cameron McEwen: there's some deeper...

[28:15] Cameron McEwen: medium that allows that thought.

[28:18] Cameron McEwen: And so once you realize that there is no such thing as a direct medium,

[28:28] Cameron McEwen: then you're introduced into the maelstrom,

[28:30] Cameron McEwen: and it's in the maelstrom that thought occurs,

[28:33] Cameron McEwen: nowhere else.

[28:36] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[28:36] Bob Dobbs: so thought is a product of the tactile interface in the maelstrom,

[28:40] Bob Dobbs: the bumping up against things,

[28:42] Bob Dobbs: rough edges,

[28:43] Bob Dobbs: and then the overlapping.

[28:45] Bob Dobbs: That mixture,

[28:46] Bob Dobbs: that's what thought comes out of.

[28:48] Cameron McEwen: Except that all of those things themselves disintegrate.

[28:53] Cameron McEwen: It's not as if we can suddenly find,

[28:58] Cameron McEwen: quote-unquote,

[28:59] Cameron McEwen: the medium by thinking about overlapping and conflicting and whatever.

[29:10] Cameron McEwen: Everything falls apart.

[29:12] Cameron McEwen: Everything in a certain way is.

[29:14] Cameron McEwen: Finnegans Wake,

[29:16] Cameron McEwen: where you simply do not know what is going on.

[29:20] Cameron McEwen: All you can do is get into the water and try to swim.

[29:25] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[29:26] Bob Dobbs: So this somehow comes back to the second sentence in the 1972 quote.

[29:31] Bob Dobbs: This,

[29:31] Bob Dobbs: in fact,

[29:32] Bob Dobbs: is the hang-up of the age of software,

[29:34] Bob Dobbs: software in quotes,

[29:35] Bob Dobbs: and information.

[29:36] Bob Dobbs: I always thought,

[29:37] Bob Dobbs: wow,

[29:37] Bob Dobbs: he's making information be different from software,

[29:40] Bob Dobbs: because most people say age of software,

[29:42] Bob Dobbs: age of information.

[29:43] Bob Dobbs: But software,

[29:44] Bob Dobbs: in quotes,

[29:45] Bob Dobbs: is different.

[29:46] Bob Dobbs: It's not information.

[29:48] Bob Dobbs: And that might have been what you're trying to say there.

[29:51] Bob Dobbs: He's trying to say here.

[29:52] Bob Dobbs: There's a difference between your cliches of thought and actual thinking.

[29:58] Bob Dobbs: Or your cliches of what the medium is and what the actual medium is.

[30:03] Bob Dobbs: So you have software and then information.

[30:08] Bob Dobbs: Ever think about that?

[30:09] Bob Dobbs: That's pretty good.

[30:10] Bob Dobbs: He's saying that's the hang-up.

[30:12] Bob Dobbs: We're stuck.

[30:13] Bob Dobbs: between those two nebulous...

[30:17] Bob Dobbs: distinctions or difference.

[30:22] Cameron McEwen: So notice that at the end of the passage,

[30:25] Cameron McEwen: he says that it's not only archaic,

[30:29] Cameron McEwen: but redundant and irrelevant.

[30:30] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[30:32] Cameron McEwen: So when he's talking about the hang-up here,

[30:34] Cameron McEwen: what he's saying is we tend to regard these things as important and relevant,

[30:45] Cameron McEwen: but that's the hang-up.

[30:46] Cameron McEwen: Because in fact,

[30:47] Cameron McEwen: They're redundant and irrelevant.

[30:49] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[30:49] Bob Dobbs: so espionage is involved with information and not software.

[30:56] Bob Dobbs: Software is more controlling than whatever the spy,

[31:00] Bob Dobbs: national spy groups are fighting over and trying to control propaganda and information about to save face for their country,

[31:09] Bob Dobbs: their nation,

[31:10] Bob Dobbs: their corporation.

[31:12] Bob Dobbs: That would be the information.

[31:13] Bob Dobbs: But the actual...

[31:14] Bob Dobbs: membrane with no content is software,

[31:17] Bob Dobbs: maybe.

[31:19] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[31:20] Cameron McEwen: to me,

[31:21] Cameron McEwen: I think the reason he has software and hardware in scare quotes is that people tend to think of them in a linear way.

[31:30] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[31:31] Cameron McEwen: They tend to think that software has replaced hardware.

[31:35] Cameron McEwen: And I think what he's trying to say there is that software and hardware are simultaneous handles.

[31:44] Cameron McEwen: on things,

[31:46] Cameron McEwen: neither one of which can be thought in isolation from the other.

[31:51] Cameron McEwen: Similarly with haves and have-nots.

[31:54] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[31:54] Bob Dobbs: he does say preceding hardware age.

[31:57] Bob Dobbs: It does imply there's a linearity there,

[32:01] Bob Dobbs: a sequence.

[32:01] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[32:03] Cameron McEwen: but is he using the word preceding to say that these were actual linear ages?

[32:14] Cameron McEwen: Or is he using the square quotes to take back the word preceding and the word age?

[32:21] Cameron McEwen: And

[32:21] Cameron McEwen: I would say the latter.

[32:23] Bob Dobbs: You mean the word hardware and the word software?

[32:26] Bob Dobbs: You said age.

[32:28] Bob Dobbs: Did you mean that?

[32:28] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[32:28] Cameron McEwen: he says preceding hardware age.

[32:31] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[32:32] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[32:32] Cameron McEwen: So at one point,

[32:34] Cameron McEwen: the Gutenberg Galaxy was called the Gutenberg Era.

[32:38] Cameron McEwen: So the book had the title of Gutenberg

[32:41] Cameron McEwen: Era for about 10 years.

[32:43] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[32:44] Cameron McEwen: from

[32:45] Cameron McEwen: 1951 to 1961.

[32:49] Cameron McEwen: And then,

[32:50] Cameron McEwen: I believe it was a student in one of his classes introduced the word galaxy for something.

[32:59] Cameron McEwen: And McLuhan liked that.

[33:01] Cameron McEwen: And so he,

[33:02] Cameron McEwen: at the last minute,

[33:03] Cameron McEwen: he changed the Gutenberg era to the Gutenberg Galaxy.

[33:09] Cameron McEwen: And he did it because the galaxy was not something linear.

[33:13] Cameron McEwen: was not something in time as an era is.

[33:17] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[33:18] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[33:19] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[33:19] Bob Dobbs: It's a mosaic or it's a maelstrom.

[33:21] Cameron McEwen: Correct,

[33:22] Cameron McEwen: correct.

[33:23] Bob Dobbs: So,

[33:28] Bob Dobbs: the old espionage activities of our Manhunters,

[33:33] Bob Dobbs: and the first time I heard him use the word

[33:36] Bob Dobbs: Manhunter is he happened to have a short statement on CBC around the time of Watergate.

[33:42] Bob Dobbs: And he said,

[33:44] Bob Dobbs: what do you make of Watergate?

[33:45] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[33:45] Bob Dobbs: it's a manhunt.

[33:47] Bob Dobbs: And I never heard him say that before.

[33:49] Bob Dobbs: Probably he had written it,

[33:50] Bob Dobbs: but I hadn't noticed it.

[33:51] Bob Dobbs: It was said somewhere in some article.

[33:53] Bob Dobbs: But that was interesting.

[33:55] Bob Dobbs: The information hunting overlaps with manhunt.

[33:59] Bob Dobbs: Then man and information become merged or interchangeable.

[34:05] Bob Dobbs: So if you had some information,

[34:08] Bob Dobbs: you could be killed.

[34:10] Bob Dobbs: you know for for having that your manhood was your information you had your special yeah and also the reverse if you had some information you could kill yeah yeah so i i wish you remember that manhunt now as usual he

[34:28] Bob Dobbs: was echoing his book because he's talking about manhunt in Take Today and that's around the time watergate started

[34:35] Bob Dobbs: 72 into 73 so he was quoting his book It's an era of manhunt.

[34:40] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[34:40] Cameron McEwen: Manhunt is an interesting phrase because you could substitute identity for man,

[34:48] Cameron McEwen: and you could talk about identity hunters.

[34:52] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[34:53] Cameron McEwen: If identity is in question,

[34:56] Cameron McEwen: who's doing the questioning,

[34:58] Cameron McEwen: right?

[35:00] Cameron McEwen: Who is it that is navigating?

[35:03] Cameron McEwen: identity hunting when it requires identity to do the hunting.

[35:09] Bob Dobbs: That's the discarnate super angel.

[35:13] Cameron McEwen: Maybe.

[35:14] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[35:15] Bob Dobbs: nobody can visualize.

[35:16] Bob Dobbs: What is it?

[35:17] Bob Dobbs: You can't visualize it.

[35:19] Bob Dobbs: So people were looking for pictorial iconic images for themselves.

[35:23] Bob Dobbs: And they had T-shirts.

[35:26] Bob Dobbs: You put some football player's number on your back,

[35:29] Bob Dobbs: that's your identity.

[35:30] Bob Dobbs: You're that quarterback or something.

[35:33] Cameron McEwen: You know,

[35:34] Bob Dobbs: that's pretty amazing,

[35:35] Bob Dobbs: the communication that begins with T-shirts and hats in the 70s.

[35:40] Cameron McEwen: And a lot of these things have brand names on them.

[35:44] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[35:45] Cameron McEwen: people being their brand.

[35:47] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[35:48] Cameron McEwen: Now,

[35:48] Bob Dobbs: that's Mythic Stage.

[35:50] Bob Dobbs: That's what I meant.

[35:50] Bob Dobbs: It's a collection of media.

[35:54] Bob Dobbs: The satellite...

[35:55] Cameron McEwen: It's the persona.

[35:56] Cameron McEwen: It's the mask.

[35:58] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[35:58] Bob Dobbs: but it's a mask you wear.

[36:01] Bob Dobbs: It's a technology you use.

[36:02] Cameron McEwen: It's not only a mask you wear,

[36:04] Cameron McEwen: it's a mask you are.

[36:05] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[36:06] Bob Dobbs: and so that was the effect of satellite.

[36:09] Bob Dobbs: The content was whatever grab bag of media you put together,

[36:15] Bob Dobbs: including your T-shirt with your brand on it.

[36:18] Bob Dobbs: That was your mythic stage or visualization of it,

[36:22] Bob Dobbs: presentation of it.

[36:23] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[36:23] Cameron McEwen: that's good.

[36:24] Cameron McEwen: So you could say that when the satellite went around the world and the world became a...

[36:31] Cameron McEwen: stage,

[36:32] Cameron McEwen: then it was recognized that all of the different cultures,

[36:39] Cameron McEwen: all of the different individual identities that had ever been in the history of the world were questionable.

[36:47] Cameron McEwen: One saw that these things were limited in different ways.

[36:53] Cameron McEwen: But then that rebounded on that knowledge,

[36:59] Cameron McEwen: right?

[37:00] Cameron McEwen: See?

[37:01] Cameron McEwen: One realized that everything was a role on a stage,

[37:06] Cameron McEwen: including the idea that what we're doing is a role on a stage.

[37:11] Bob Dobbs: What we're doing is a performance on a stage?

[37:15] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[37:15] Cameron McEwen: but what I'm trying to point out is that you can't think that everything is only a mask or only a role in the global theater without thinking deeper to the idea that

[37:29] Cameron McEwen: this idea about roles in theater is itself a role and then and then you have to say in what theater is this and and then you get into the maelstrom yeah so that's the beginning of the culture wars and tourism uh

[37:46] Bob Dobbs: people putting on they go live someplace live in that culture put it on exactly exactly and that was a cheapening of culture the older like arab cultures they didn't like that

[37:58] Bob Dobbs: They're a bit slower in their adapting to the membrane.

[38:02] Bob Dobbs: And so they took it personally.

[38:06] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[38:06] Cameron McEwen: they knew that they were under attack.

[38:08] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[38:09] Cameron McEwen: So cultures that didn't know that they were under attack and welcomed the tourists and all that sort of stuff were committing suicide.

[38:21] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[38:23] Cameron McEwen: And the net result is that this wave...

[38:28] Cameron McEwen: of suicide has rolled over all of the cultures of the world,

[38:34] Cameron McEwen: and there aren't any anymore.

[38:37] Cameron McEwen: Right,

[38:38] Bob Dobbs: so McLuhan talks in the 40s about Henry James books was about the Westerner,

[38:44] Bob Dobbs: the literate Westerner,

[38:45] Bob Dobbs: treating the world as a museum.

[38:47] Bob Dobbs: So that became tourism,

[38:49] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[38:49] Bob Dobbs: after World War II,

[38:51] Bob Dobbs: and the massive threats to identity that even the West,

[38:56] Bob Dobbs: as it...

[38:57] Bob Dobbs: put on costumes,

[38:59] Bob Dobbs: cultures all over the world,

[39:00] Bob Dobbs: mythic stages,

[39:01] Bob Dobbs: it eventually consumed them all.

[39:04] Bob Dobbs: So by the 80s,

[39:05] Bob Dobbs: you got a global meaninglessness.

[39:08] Bob Dobbs: Nobody knows what to wear anymore.

[39:10] Bob Dobbs: So then everybody got religion in the West.

[39:13] Bob Dobbs: They went Christian.

[39:14] Bob Dobbs: Fundamentalists took over.

[39:16] Bob Dobbs: They went back to their main archetype,

[39:18] Bob Dobbs: the book and the Bible.

[39:20] Bob Dobbs: So that was a big final grabbing for some cultural mask.

[39:27] Bob Dobbs: to use and it was otherworldly right so you could see where anthropology you know would fade out and the sociology faded out all these disciplines became meaningless because people were swallowing

[39:43] Bob Dobbs: them and being sociologists as Posthuman all over the planet right so they that was a maelstrom there's yeah there's a natural rebound from this um when uh

[39:56] Cameron McEwen: People go around the planet and either look at

[40:04] Cameron McEwen: cultures and languages as rooms in a museum or as something to put on themselves to find identity.

[40:15] Cameron McEwen: But in either case,

[40:16] Cameron McEwen: it rebounds on the culture that is doing this.

[40:21] Cameron McEwen: So the culture that is doing this,

[40:24] Cameron McEwen: namely the cosmic culture of America,

[40:29] Cameron McEwen: falls through itself and loses itself in this.

[40:33] Cameron McEwen: process of destroying all other identities,

[40:37] Cameron McEwen: it destroys its own.

[40:39] Bob Dobbs: And then it becomes a phatic,

[40:41] Bob Dobbs: this would be Reaganism,

[40:42] Bob Dobbs: about its own self.

[40:43] Bob Dobbs: So it becomes,

[40:44] Bob Dobbs: it finds the old small town image and says,

[40:47] Bob Dobbs: that's what we are.

[40:48] Bob Dobbs: So that's the neoconservative,

[40:51] Bob Dobbs: not just economics,

[40:52] Bob Dobbs: but in retrieving your culture and making that your fortress.

[40:58] Cameron McEwen: That's what the West did.

[41:02] Cameron McEwen: It's wrong to say that everybody got religion and everybody became small town.

[41:09] Cameron McEwen: Instead,

[41:11] Cameron McEwen: that was one of the answers.

[41:14] Cameron McEwen: There was taking drugs.

[41:20] Bob Dobbs: Or going to Wall Street,

[41:22] Bob Dobbs: trying to make millions as fast as possible.

[41:24] Cameron McEwen: Exactly.

[41:25] Cameron McEwen: So these were all rules which developed.

[41:31] Cameron McEwen: sort of in the apocalyptic world scene where people tried to establish identity through identification,

[41:42] Cameron McEwen: right?

[41:42] Cameron McEwen: It's a funny thing.

[41:45] Cameron McEwen: You want to find identity,

[41:46] Cameron McEwen: and so you identify in some way with a role.

[41:50] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[41:50] Bob Dobbs: when you have a real identity,

[41:52] Bob Dobbs: you're not aware of it.

[41:54] Bob Dobbs: It's just part of you.

[41:55] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[41:56] Bob Dobbs: you don't have a...

[41:57] Bob Dobbs: It's not questioned.

[42:00] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[42:00] Cameron McEwen: well...

[42:01] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[42:03] Cameron McEwen: but that's sort of an anthropological identity,

[42:06] Cameron McEwen: right?

[42:06] Cameron McEwen: In the future,

[42:08] Cameron McEwen: identity is going to have to be something that precisely is questioned.

[42:12] Cameron McEwen: It'll be something that is not afraid of probing.

[42:17] Cameron McEwen: It exists through probing.

[42:20] Cameron McEwen: And that's sort of a positive meaning of the City as Classroom.

[42:24] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[42:24] Bob Dobbs: that would be identity as art form or as archetype or as cliche probe.

[42:30] Bob Dobbs: Identity is a cliché probe.

[42:31] Bob Dobbs: And maybe that's what's happening with the girls,

[42:35] Bob Dobbs: the teenagers.

[42:36] Bob Dobbs: Their mothers complain that,

[42:37] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[42:37] Bob Dobbs: my daughter is one trans one week,

[42:41] Bob Dobbs: and then two weeks later she wants to be another identity.

[42:44] Bob Dobbs: So the younger girl's turnover,

[42:46] Bob Dobbs: rapid turnover,

[42:47] Bob Dobbs: is this probing,

[42:49] Bob Dobbs: using whatever their friends are doing,

[42:52] Bob Dobbs: making that a cliché probe for an identity for a while.

[42:55] Bob Dobbs: And then it shifts.

[42:57] Cameron McEwen: Right,

[42:57] Cameron McEwen: so the whole process that was...

[43:00] Cameron McEwen: slow in the

[43:02] Cameron McEwen: 70s and 80s of identity transformation has now become faster and faster and it's driving people literally crazy and whether

[43:18] Cameron McEwen: the world can survive that process is sort of the question that we're living through.

[43:25] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[43:26] Bob Dobbs: what kind of crazy panic is going on when

[43:28] Bob Dobbs: When teachers are encouraging kids to cut off their genitals and stuff,

[43:32] Bob Dobbs: boy,

[43:32] Bob Dobbs: that's really bad.

[43:34] Bob Dobbs: Really hyper,

[43:36] Bob Dobbs: excessively in the maelstrom there.

[43:41] Cameron McEwen: Correct,

[43:42] Cameron McEwen: correct.

[43:42] Cameron McEwen: So in my history of modern times,

[43:49] Cameron McEwen: I would start sort of in the

[43:52] Cameron McEwen: 1950s when people were trying to decide.

[43:58] Cameron McEwen: How do we finance schooling?

[44:02] Cameron McEwen: And on the one hand,

[44:05] Cameron McEwen: they could continue to pay teachers in a way that made teachers be a respected and important job

[44:20] Cameron McEwen: in society.

[44:22] Cameron McEwen: Or what you could do is you could reduce

[44:26] Cameron McEwen: education to the huge factories where kids would no longer walk to work.

[44:32] Cameron McEwen: They would no longer have respected teachers.

[44:34] Cameron McEwen: They would be in these huge boxes that had the same architecture as prisons.

[44:40] Cameron McEwen: And teachers would just be low paid,

[44:46] Cameron McEwen: sort of unthinking police people.

[44:48] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[44:49] Cameron McEwen: And so then once you make decisions like that,

[44:54] Cameron McEwen: nobody wants to

[44:55] Cameron McEwen: to be a teacher anymore except crazy people.

[44:59] Cameron McEwen: And that's what,

[45:01] Cameron McEwen: therefore,

[45:01] Cameron McEwen: you end up...

[45:03] Cameron McEwen: today having crazy people be the teachers who want to teach nothing but genital mutilation.

[45:15] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[45:15] Bob Dobbs: pretty.

[45:16] Cameron McEwen: But it's a decision that was really made

[45:19] Cameron McEwen: 70 or 80 years ago in regard to the respect and financial remuneration that we were going to give to teachers.

[45:28] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[45:28] Cameron McEwen: And the same thing has happened to nursing.

[45:31] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[45:31] Bob Dobbs: I was just going to say medicine.

[45:33] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[45:33] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[45:33] Cameron McEwen: Canada apparently is shutting down emergency rooms all over the country because there's no nurses for them.

[45:40] Bob Dobbs: Wow.

[45:41] Cameron McEwen: So it's basically it's the way society,

[45:51] Cameron McEwen: singular,

[45:52] Cameron McEwen: right,

[45:53] Cameron McEwen: a type of society that's more or less swept over the whole world.

[45:58] Cameron McEwen: It's a way that a society thinks about itself.

[46:02] Cameron McEwen: in terms of the relative importance of roles.

[46:07] Cameron McEwen: And the only role that makes any difference at all in the world nowadays is some sort of billionaire.

[46:18] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[46:20] Bob Dobbs: yep.

[46:21] Bob Dobbs: Which is,

[46:22] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan said that women's lib was really requesting upward mobility.

[46:32] Bob Dobbs: So men had mobility,

[46:33] Bob Dobbs: but being a billionaire is the icon of tremendous mobility,

[46:37] Bob Dobbs: hopping from anti-environment to another.

[46:40] Bob Dobbs: He said the credit card,

[46:41] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[46:41] Bob Dobbs: extended prestige.

[46:43] Bob Dobbs: You had to be able to move on your own yacht or plane anywhere in the world is an extreme mobility.

[46:53] Bob Dobbs: And that's what a billion brings you.

[46:56] Bob Dobbs: A billion,

[46:57] Bob Dobbs: right?

[46:58] Bob Dobbs: It's to be able to hop from one mythic stage to another.

[47:02] Cameron McEwen: At the same time,

[47:05] Cameron McEwen: you buy some whole island in Hawaii.

[47:10] Cameron McEwen: And so you have a base that nobody else could have.

[47:16] Cameron McEwen: But you use that base simply as a kind of protective anchor.

[47:25] Cameron McEwen: And the rest of the time,

[47:26] Cameron McEwen: as you say,

[47:27] Cameron McEwen: you're hip-hopping.

[47:28] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[47:28] Bob Dobbs: you're launching all over the place.

[47:30] Bob Dobbs: That's Epstein.

[47:32] Bob Dobbs: Epstein organized the society for that level,

[47:35] Bob Dobbs: for that type of person.

[47:38] Bob Dobbs: He was the madam of the brothel,

[47:41] Bob Dobbs: but the brothel was all these environments that you could do.

[47:45] Bob Dobbs: So one day he'd be taking Stephen Hawking,

[47:48] Bob Dobbs: looking for Atlantis,

[47:49] Bob Dobbs: and the next day he'd be up at MIT investing in gene research or something,

[47:54] Bob Dobbs: and then he'd be doing all the other activities that people brought to him,

[47:59] Bob Dobbs: politics and everything.

[48:00] Bob Dobbs: He was a modern,

[48:03] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[48:05] Bob Dobbs: Heidi Fleiss,

[48:07] Bob Dobbs: the L.A.

[48:08] Bob Dobbs: madam.

[48:09] Bob Dobbs: And then there was one in Washington.

[48:12] Bob Dobbs: Whatever that,

[48:13] Bob Dobbs: what is that archetype?

[48:15] Bob Dobbs: Just the lady who runs the whorehouse in the town,

[48:18] Bob Dobbs: right?

[48:19] Bob Dobbs: She has a lot of prestige on the underground level.

[48:23] Bob Dobbs: Epstein was that.

[48:24] Bob Dobbs: We actually come up with an interesting,

[48:26] Bob Dobbs: a modern...

[48:29] Bob Dobbs: What are they called?

[48:31] Bob Dobbs: Robert Logan.

[48:32] Bob Dobbs: What do you call these people?

[48:34] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[48:34] Cameron McEwen: Madam.

[48:34] Bob Dobbs: A Madam.

[48:35] Bob Dobbs: Epstein was a modern,

[48:37] Bob Dobbs: postmodern Madam.

[48:38] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[48:39] Bob Dobbs: For?

[48:40] Cameron McEwen: At the same time,

[48:42] Cameron McEwen: he was the sort of complicated machine that you were talking about Hugh Kenner describing.

[48:48] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[48:48] Bob Dobbs: his hyper connections to everything.

[48:51] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[48:53] Cameron McEwen: this machine that goes between geography,

[48:57] Cameron McEwen: sexuality.

[48:59] Cameron McEwen: academic research.

[49:02] Cameron McEwen: It's this incredibly complicated machine put together with string.

[49:09] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[49:09] Bob Dobbs: it looks like HCE.

[49:10] Bob Dobbs: in Finnegans Wake,

[49:11] Bob Dobbs: because a lot of perversities are in Finnegans Wake.

[49:14] Cameron McEwen: That's right,

[49:15] Cameron McEwen: that's right.

[49:16] Bob Dobbs: So,

[49:16] Bob Dobbs: I think we hit on something here.

[49:17] Bob Dobbs: So,

[49:18] Bob Dobbs: Epstein,

[49:18] Bob Dobbs: like usually,

[49:20] Bob Dobbs: whatever becomes a scandalous image,

[49:22] Bob Dobbs: is pop culture's image back to itself?

[49:27] Bob Dobbs: So Howard Hughes represented something in the late 60s,

[49:30] Bob Dobbs: early 70s.

[49:31] Bob Dobbs: And then,

[49:32] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[49:32] Bob Dobbs: and then he disappeared.

[49:34] Bob Dobbs: And McLuhan called him a hotel hermit.

[49:36] Bob Dobbs: So that was what was happening to people.

[49:38] Bob Dobbs: So Epstein was expressing,

[49:41] Bob Dobbs: and McLuhan said society became an art form.

[49:44] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[49:44] Bob Dobbs: New York City would create,

[49:46] Bob Dobbs: it would need some,

[49:47] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[49:48] Bob Dobbs: Vogue magazine,

[49:50] Bob Dobbs: that lady who runs that,

[49:52] Bob Dobbs: to create images that made people think there was a society.

[49:56] Bob Dobbs: And that's...

[49:57] Bob Dobbs: the virtual image they live in.

[49:58] Bob Dobbs: So that would be a certain level of identity.

[50:01] Bob Dobbs: Epstein was managing a way more complex society as art form.

[50:08] Cameron McEwen: Great.

[50:08] Cameron McEwen: But doesn't this all tie in with

[50:12] Cameron McEwen: Trump the tech body?

[50:14] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[50:14] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[50:14] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[50:15] Bob Dobbs: the tech body is now the madam.

[50:18] Bob Dobbs: And it threw out,

[50:19] Bob Dobbs: it exposed Epstein as his content.

[50:23] Bob Dobbs: The service environment was Epstein,

[50:25] Bob Dobbs: and he became obsolete.

[50:26] Bob Dobbs: He just got rid of him.

[50:27] Bob Dobbs: Now the tech body is modulating and creating the Bronowski,

[50:33] Bob Dobbs: or

[50:34] Bob Dobbs: I don't know what you call it.

[50:36] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[50:36] Bob Dobbs: you go back to the page 190 of War and Peace in the Global Village where he talks about the media becoming the new animals,

[50:43] Bob Dobbs: the new aggressors,

[50:45] Bob Dobbs: the new...

[50:48] Bob Dobbs: uh,

[50:49] Bob Dobbs: monstrous consumers,

[50:50] Bob Dobbs: the media environment themselves.

[50:53] Bob Dobbs: What?

[50:54] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[50:54] Bob Dobbs: so Epstein...

[50:55] Cameron McEwen: Totem.

[50:56] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[50:56] Bob Dobbs: so Epstein represented the manager of the media's animals.

[51:01] Bob Dobbs: Then that became obsolete.

[51:02] Bob Dobbs: Posthuman could do it.

[51:03] Bob Dobbs: So the tech body took over as manager.

[51:06] Bob Dobbs: I call it tetrad manager or pentad manager,

[51:09] Bob Dobbs: interrelating all the functions of all the media environments that have been resolved to information or software.

[51:16] Bob Dobbs: Or,

[51:18] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[51:19] Bob Dobbs: mini-states,

[51:20] Bob Dobbs: mini-environments that you could quickly use,

[51:23] Bob Dobbs: hop from one to another.

[51:24] Bob Dobbs: So,

[51:26] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[51:28] Bob Dobbs: so if I had to say what the tech body is,

[51:30] Bob Dobbs: I'd say it replaced

[51:33] Bob Dobbs: Heidi Fleiss and then Epstein.

[51:38] Cameron McEwen: Talk a little bit about the phrase exposed or the word exposed.

[51:44] Cameron McEwen: What you said was that the tech...

[51:46] Cameron McEwen: body exposed Epstein.

[51:50] Bob Dobbs: That means becoming a figure.

[51:53] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[51:53] Cameron McEwen: yeah,

[51:54] Cameron McEwen: I understand that.

[51:54] Cameron McEwen: But there's two senses of exposed,

[51:58] Cameron McEwen: right?

[51:58] Cameron McEwen: Somebody can pull a curtain back and expose what's behind the curtain.

[52:04] Cameron McEwen: Or a new environment can come along and it exposes something.

[52:12] Cameron McEwen: For example,

[52:13] Cameron McEwen: Oh.

[52:15] Cameron McEwen: When the freeways and different media come along to help along the car,

[52:26] Cameron McEwen: they expose the benefits of the horse and they expose the limitations of the car.

[52:33] Cameron McEwen: But that's not the kind of exposing that goes on if somebody pulls the curtain back.

[52:40] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[52:41] Bob Dobbs: so I think I got it.

[52:42] Bob Dobbs: In my other chart.

[52:43] Bob Dobbs: the Bob Dobbs formula chart.

[52:44] Bob Dobbs: I've got HCE on one end and ALP.

[52:49] Bob Dobbs: ALP is the ground,

[52:50] Bob Dobbs: the technological massage.

[52:51] Bob Dobbs: And then you have the bureaucratic policing of the anti-environment,

[52:57] Bob Dobbs: usually by men.

[52:59] Bob Dobbs: And so the pulling the curtain away is done by HCE to expose something to distract from the environmental exposure done by ALP.

[53:12] Bob Dobbs: So one is manhunt.

[53:14] Bob Dobbs: Manhunt refers to the person who pulls the curtain by to expose somebody,

[53:19] Bob Dobbs: to distract everybody from another level of exposure.

[53:23] Bob Dobbs: For example,

[53:23] Bob Dobbs: that we're in this situation now where there's no money at any level in society right now,

[53:29] Bob Dobbs: and that was anti-environment effect of the digital chip body.

[53:33] Bob Dobbs: And then you have this obsession with cryptocurrency and blockchain and all that.

[53:38] Bob Dobbs: Those were the new technologies that were exposing...

[53:43] Bob Dobbs: The end of the centralized bankers and the Federal Reserve and all that,

[53:46] Bob Dobbs: that was environmental.

[53:48] Bob Dobbs: But then you had to expose Epstein with its perversities to distract from the real issue.

[53:54] Bob Dobbs: So one exposure is environmental and the other is human meddling,

[54:01] Bob Dobbs: the manhunt,

[54:02] Bob Dobbs: the looking for blame.

[54:04] Cameron McEwen: Duplicitous.

[54:05] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[54:06] Bob Dobbs: the duplicitous factor.

[54:08] Bob Dobbs: So what do you think of that?

[54:09] Bob Dobbs: Quickly.

[54:10] Bob Dobbs: No,

[54:11] Cameron McEwen: I think we're talking about very interesting stuff.

[54:14] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[54:14] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[54:14] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[54:14] Cameron McEwen: Keep your hot tonight.

[54:18] Bob Dobbs: You're hot by staying with me.

[54:21] Cameron McEwen: So this is,

[54:22] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[54:23] Cameron McEwen: in Finnegans Wake,

[54:24] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[54:25] Cameron McEwen: remember,

[54:25] Cameron McEwen: I don't know anything about Finnegans Wake.

[54:28] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[54:29] Cameron McEwen: I've never really tried to know much about it.

[54:32] Cameron McEwen: But what you're saying here reminds me of the question of what happened Innis.

[54:38] Cameron McEwen: The park.

[54:39] Cameron McEwen: Park.

[54:39] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[54:40] Cameron McEwen: So you have different kinds of exposure going on,

[54:45] Cameron McEwen: right?

[54:46] Bob Dobbs: No,

[54:46] Bob Dobbs: that exactly is what Joyce was accidentally exposing.

[54:50] Bob Dobbs: He was showing the two levels of exposure I'm talking about,

[54:53] Bob Dobbs: because they can't determine what the crime is or what level it is or who's involved,

[54:59] Bob Dobbs: and it ends up being every crime in history is in there.

[55:02] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[55:02] Cameron McEwen: but wasn't the main crime an exposure?

[55:07] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[55:07] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[55:07] Bob Dobbs: it was.

[55:09] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[55:09] Bob Dobbs: that HCE.

[55:10] Bob Dobbs: took a piss and,

[55:11] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[55:12] Bob Dobbs: two girls and three soldiers saw him or they were fucking and he saw them.

[55:17] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[55:18] Bob Dobbs: it's all ambiguous.

[55:18] Bob Dobbs: But yeah,

[55:19] Bob Dobbs: some,

[55:20] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[55:21] Bob Dobbs: old moralistic dilemma of nakedness or nudity or something.

[55:25] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[55:29] Cameron McEwen: you've been talking about the varieties of exposure.

[55:34] Cameron McEwen: And here,

[55:34] Cameron McEwen: what we have is exposure as content,

[55:38] Cameron McEwen: as message,

[55:40] Cameron McEwen: which is a kind of door to the sorts of exposure that you're talking about.

[55:46] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[55:47] Bob Dobbs: so they can't tell.

[55:49] Bob Dobbs: So all the questions about Epstein are the same questions about HCE.

[55:53] Bob Dobbs: Was Epstein a tool of the agencies?

[55:58] Bob Dobbs: Or was he a guy who hijacked the agencies and worked in the interval?

[56:02] Bob Dobbs: You couldn't tell what level of the bureaucracy he was on,

[56:05] Bob Dobbs: and then you couldn't tell what environments he represented.

[56:07] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[56:09] Bob Dobbs: he's on page 11 of Take Today,

[56:11] Bob Dobbs: where both man and technology merge.

[56:16] Bob Dobbs: Man becomes figure and ground.

[56:18] Bob Dobbs: That's what he was.

[56:18] Bob Dobbs: They can't figure out how much he was a dupe of exchange of information,

[56:24] Bob Dobbs: or he was a ground.

[56:27] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[56:27] Bob Dobbs: a super angel that was manipulating everybody.

[56:31] Cameron McEwen: So we can't tell that anymore.

[56:34] Bob Dobbs: We can't figure it out.

[56:35] Cameron McEwen: How can you tell?

[56:37] Cameron McEwen: One reason that we can't figure it out is that the information that would be needed to figure it out isn't available.

[56:44] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[56:45] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[56:45] Cameron McEwen: So the client list and how many times Clinton went here,

[56:49] Cameron McEwen: Clinton went there.

[56:51] Cameron McEwen: None of this information is available because the information.

[56:55] Cameron McEwen: information managers don't allow that.

[57:01] Cameron McEwen: And so we live in an era of information manipulation.

[57:09] Bob Dobbs: And acquiesce to that anonymity.

[57:13] Bob Dobbs: Once you become a billionaire,

[57:14] Bob Dobbs: then you start using anonymity for other services.

[57:18] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[57:19] Bob Dobbs: you're not trying to,

[57:20] Bob Dobbs: it's not conspicuous consumption anymore.

[57:23] Bob Dobbs: It's.

[57:23] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[57:23] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.

[57:24] Cameron McEwen: But the anonymity,

[57:26] Cameron McEwen: it turns out that the anonymity.

[57:33] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[57:33] Cameron McEwen: that what seems to be only something that the billionaire can do is actually what everybody already has.

[57:43] Bob Dobbs: And can't do.

[57:45] Cameron McEwen: They've already lost their identity.

[57:47] Cameron McEwen: So they have to be anonymous.

[57:49] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[57:50] Bob Dobbs: there's so many.

[57:51] Bob Dobbs: Mini Epsteins in little towns and cities all over

[57:54] Bob Dobbs: America. Sure.

[57:56] Bob Dobbs: The local mafia guys.

[57:58] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[57:59] Cameron McEwen: but in another sense,

[58:00] Cameron McEwen: we all are Epsteins in our unconscious and in our dreams,

[58:06] Cameron McEwen: right?

[58:06] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[58:06] Bob Dobbs: our chemical bodies are.

[58:09] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[58:09] Cameron McEwen: well,

[58:10] Cameron McEwen: it's not just that.

[58:11] Cameron McEwen: I don't know how your bodies work exactly,

[58:13] Cameron McEwen: but the unconscious,

[58:16] Cameron McEwen: the dreaming body,

[58:19] Cameron McEwen: it can't.

[58:19] Cameron McEwen: only be the chemical body.

[58:21] Cameron McEwen: It must be...

[58:22] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[58:22] Bob Dobbs: that would be the astral body.

[58:24] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[58:24] Cameron McEwen: that's the astral body.

[58:25] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[58:27] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[58:27] Cameron McEwen: so we're involved in Epstein actions and desires on multiple levels.

[58:43] Cameron McEwen: And what this does is it raises the question of when

[58:49] Cameron McEwen: Epstein becomes exposed,

[58:51] Cameron McEwen: as we were saying,

[58:52] Cameron McEwen: how can it be that the exposure is essentially a non-exposure?

[58:59] Cameron McEwen: How does that work?

[59:01] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[59:02] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[59:03] Bob Dobbs: So the idea everybody's an Epstein.

[59:10] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[59:11] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[59:11] Bob Dobbs: So the figure,

[59:12] Bob Dobbs: Epstein becomes a figure.

[59:14] Bob Dobbs: Howard Hughes was a figure.

[59:15] Bob Dobbs: They're telling people what they actually are.

[59:18] Bob Dobbs: Howard Hughes was a super angel.

[59:21] Bob Dobbs: Epstein is a super angel,

[59:23] Bob Dobbs: later version.

[59:24] Bob Dobbs: But everybody is a super angel.

[59:26] Bob Dobbs: So you have a guy acting out our sinful selves and reflect it back to us.

[59:31] Bob Dobbs: So that becomes folklore.

[59:33] Bob Dobbs: And it gives people a sense of what the boundaries are in behavior.

[59:38] Bob Dobbs: Because for a while,

[59:39] Bob Dobbs: in this anti-environment,

[59:40] Bob Dobbs: nobody knows what's going on.

[59:41] Bob Dobbs: They don't have an identity.

[59:42] Bob Dobbs: So they're probing,

[59:43] Bob Dobbs: exploring all over the place.

[59:45] Bob Dobbs: And then somebody gets...

[59:47] Bob Dobbs: hoiked up as a representative of all that exploring,

[59:50] Bob Dobbs: and then is blamed.

[59:52] Bob Dobbs: Isn't that the old

[59:54] Bob Dobbs: Greek king god in mythology,

[59:56] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[59:57] Bob Dobbs: that gets sacrificed?

[59:59] Cameron McEwen: mm-hmm.

[1:00:00] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:00:00] Cameron McEwen: the Golden Bough-type king that is going to be killed by his successor.

[1:00:07] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:00:08] Bob Dobbs: now Kroker has a lot of the appropriate words.

[1:00:10] Bob Dobbs: Sacrificial violence.

[1:00:11] Bob Dobbs: Everything is sacrificial.

[1:00:13] Bob Dobbs: He has abuse value.

[1:00:14] Bob Dobbs: He has a good bunch of terms,

[1:00:16] Bob Dobbs: sort of.

[1:00:17] Bob Dobbs: coalescing what different postmodern thinkers were doing he put together into a a sociological poetry.

[1:00:23] Cameron McEwen: So let me just go back one sec because you said something very interesting you were talking about this as folklore.

[1:00:30] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:00:30] Cameron McEwen: So can we say that art like Finnegans Wake is folklore come alive?

[1:00:36] Bob Dobbs: Yes it definitely anticipates the tech body and the Android Meme everything is and that's what McLuhan

[1:00:43] Bob Dobbs: His genius was to recognize how significant Finnegans Wake was,

[1:00:47] Bob Dobbs: and was actually talking about the world,

[1:00:49] Bob Dobbs: the worlds that were happening and were unfolding,

[1:00:52] Bob Dobbs: technologically.

[1:00:53] Bob Dobbs: It was not a novel.

[1:00:54] Bob Dobbs: It was a guide to what was going on in the world,

[1:00:59] Bob Dobbs: you know?

[1:00:59] Cameron McEwen: So,

[1:01:01] Cameron McEwen: folklore come alive,

[1:01:03] Cameron McEwen: at one level,

[1:01:04] Cameron McEwen: is just language.

[1:01:05] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:01:06] Cameron McEwen: And,

[1:01:07] Cameron McEwen: but,

[1:01:10] Cameron McEwen: I guess,

[1:01:12] Cameron McEwen: language...

[1:01:15] Cameron McEwen: is inherently Self-Condemned.

[1:01:18] Cameron McEwen: And so you have a kind of drama between the all-at-onceness of language and its unfolding just in everyday...

[1:01:29] Bob Dobbs: Becoming a new kind of Self-Condemned later.

[1:01:33] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:01:33] Bob Dobbs: Another level of all-at-onceness.

[1:01:35] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:01:36] Cameron McEwen: so there's a wake that's possible that's...

[1:01:42] Cameron McEwen: based on a wake that's actual.

[1:01:45] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:01:46] Bob Dobbs: and there's endless wakes.

[1:01:47] Bob Dobbs: So you have the same wakes theme repeated all through the book.

[1:01:53] Bob Dobbs: It's redoing the same tetrad pattern.

[1:02:00] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:02:00] Cameron McEwen: keep going.

[1:02:02] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:02:04] Bob Dobbs: let's see.

[1:02:06] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:02:07] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[1:02:07] Cameron McEwen: You can go back to your book if you want.

[1:02:09] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[1:02:10] Bob Dobbs: but I was thinking this...

[1:02:12] Bob Dobbs: Might be a little bit more to say about the image of Epstein,

[1:02:14] Cameron McEwen: like the,

[1:02:18] Bob Dobbs: who is this star?

[1:02:20] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:02:20] Bob Dobbs: Trump,

[1:02:21] Bob Dobbs: okay?

[1:02:21] Bob Dobbs: Trump Epstein are two phenomena of

[1:02:25] Bob Dobbs: Trump first term,

[1:02:27] Bob Dobbs: parallel.

[1:02:29] Bob Dobbs: What's being,

[1:02:29] Bob Dobbs: so

[1:02:30] Bob Dobbs: Trump,

[1:02:32] Bob Dobbs: in his background,

[1:02:33] Bob Dobbs: an Epstein kind of character.

[1:02:35] Bob Dobbs: But he is transformed into something of a...

[1:02:42] Bob Dobbs: in anti-environment to politics.

[1:02:45] Bob Dobbs: But you have to expose the complementary Shem and Shaun.

[1:02:50] Bob Dobbs: You have to expose Shem.

[1:02:52] Bob Dobbs: If

[1:02:53] Bob Dobbs: Trump being Shaun,

[1:02:54] Bob Dobbs: Shem is Epstein.

[1:02:55] Bob Dobbs: They go together.

[1:02:56] Bob Dobbs: And,

[1:02:56] Bob Dobbs: of course,

[1:02:57] Bob Dobbs: they photograph them together.

[1:02:59] Bob Dobbs: They can't tell Trump kicked Epstein out.

[1:03:03] Bob Dobbs: Why was Epstein already down there at Mar-a-Lago?

[1:03:06] Bob Dobbs: It's an amazing mixture.

[1:03:09] Bob Dobbs: Obviously a maelstrom,

[1:03:10] Bob Dobbs: but...

[1:03:10] Bob Dobbs: There's all these interesting tetrad patterns going on of somebody being an Epstein and then flipping into Trump.

[1:03:17] Bob Dobbs: And then Trump flips back into Epstein.

[1:03:19] Bob Dobbs: And then you bring a zombie in like Biden,

[1:03:21] Bob Dobbs: who's a direct programmed techno body,

[1:03:26] Bob Dobbs: tech body guy,

[1:03:28] Bob Dobbs: who goes around trying to find contact with an Anthropomorphic Physical.

[1:03:33] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:03:34] Bob Dobbs: what is the main image we have of Biden?

[1:03:35] Bob Dobbs: He's standing there trying to shake somebody's hand,

[1:03:38] Bob Dobbs: but there's nobody there.

[1:03:41] Bob Dobbs: Right?

[1:03:42] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:03:42] Cameron McEwen: of course.

[1:03:43] Bob Dobbs: Tech body looking for an alibi.

[1:03:47] Bob Dobbs: Looking for someone else to blame it on.

[1:03:49] Bob Dobbs: But that's how extreme our political imagery is so insane,

[1:03:54] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[1:03:54] Bob Dobbs: right now.

[1:03:56] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[1:03:56] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.

[1:03:57] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.

[1:03:58] Bob Dobbs: But that's because we have such insane environments and effects going on.

[1:04:05] Bob Dobbs: That's what the news should be.

[1:04:07] Bob Dobbs: You just come on,

[1:04:08] Bob Dobbs: Tucker Carlson,

[1:04:08] Bob Dobbs: you come on and says,

[1:04:09] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[1:04:09] Bob Dobbs: everybody's still nuts.

[1:04:12] Bob Dobbs: That's the news.

[1:04:14] Bob Dobbs: There's no evidence of sanity anywhere.

[1:04:16] Bob Dobbs: There is a guy over there who claims he's pretty sane,

[1:04:20] Bob Dobbs: but he's talking to a ghost.

[1:04:27] Bob Dobbs: So all we can do is build museums.

[1:04:33] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:04:34] Cameron McEwen: let's see.

[1:04:36] Cameron McEwen: That's the end of the West,

[1:04:37] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:04:39] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:04:39] Bob Dobbs: isn't it the end of all cultures?

[1:04:42] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:04:42] Cameron McEwen: I don't think so.

[1:04:42] Cameron McEwen: All four worlds?

[1:04:45] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:04:45] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:04:46] Cameron McEwen: personally,

[1:04:47] Cameron McEwen: I think that the West is committing suicide.

[1:04:50] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:04:50] Cameron McEwen: And the East,

[1:04:52] Cameron McEwen: the

[1:04:52] Cameron McEwen: Asian world.

[1:04:54] Bob Dobbs: That's the second world of Russian bureaucracy.

[1:04:56] Bob Dobbs: That's Putin committing suicide.

[1:04:58] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:04:59] Cameron McEwen: yeah,

[1:04:59] Cameron McEwen: I wouldn't call

[1:05:00] Cameron McEwen: Russia the East.

[1:05:01] Cameron McEwen: I would say that the

[1:05:04] Cameron McEwen: Asians.

[1:05:05] Cameron McEwen: are the are the east and they they have a they've already seen everything there is to be seen and they have a patience um and a um an awareness of the fragility of identity that

[1:05:21] Bob Dobbs: the west doesn't have right but i'm talking about the four worlds mcluhan's first second third and fourth world remember first world's capitalism second world's russian bureaucracy third world is the undeveloped world developing

[1:05:35] Bob Dobbs: And then the fourth world is the electric world that goes around the first three.

[1:05:39] Bob Dobbs: Let's hype those images up here.

[1:05:42] Bob Dobbs: It's make them more extreme.

[1:05:44] Bob Dobbs: The tech body,

[1:05:45] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:05:46] Bob Dobbs: the fourth world,

[1:05:47] Bob Dobbs: the electric world,

[1:05:47] Bob Dobbs: has become the tech body.

[1:05:49] Bob Dobbs: And it's presenting itself as the first world and the second world and the third world.

[1:05:55] Bob Dobbs: So then you have these three worlds are declaring war on others but committing suicide.

[1:06:02] Bob Dobbs: Like,

[1:06:03] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:06:04] Bob Dobbs: America is sending all this money to Ukraine to a black hole.

[1:06:07] Bob Dobbs: And there's nothing that's ever going to measure whether that was successful or not.

[1:06:11] Bob Dobbs: And Putin has run into that black hole.

[1:06:14] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:06:15] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:06:16] Bob Dobbs: Ukraine,

[1:06:18] Bob Dobbs: what is a crane?

[1:06:19] Bob Dobbs: Is that a bird or is it the structural thing that lifts parts of buildings up when you're constructing a high-rise?

[1:06:30] Bob Dobbs: Ukraine could mean a lot.

[1:06:31] Bob Dobbs: It's us,

[1:06:32] Bob Dobbs: you.

[1:06:33] Bob Dobbs: You are a crane.

[1:06:35] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:06:36] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:06:37] Cameron McEwen: I believe in Russian.

[1:06:39] Cameron McEwen: They are in,

[1:06:40] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[1:06:42] Cameron McEwen: Russian slash

[1:06:43] Cameron McEwen: Ukrainian language.

[1:06:45] Cameron McEwen: I believe Ukraine means borderline.

[1:06:47] Bob Dobbs: Ah,

[1:06:48] Bob Dobbs: and that's what we're in.

[1:06:50] Bob Dobbs: Endless tactile borderlines that McLuhan saw.

[1:06:52] Bob Dobbs: Exactly,

[1:06:52] Cameron McEwen: exactly.

[1:06:53] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:06:54] Cameron McEwen: exactly.

[1:06:55] Cameron McEwen: Edges everywhere.

[1:06:56] Cameron McEwen: But let's go back to the four worlds you're talking about.

[1:07:00] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:07:01] Cameron McEwen: I don't know that the fourth world,

[1:07:04] Cameron McEwen: at least it doesn't seem intuitively right to me.

[1:07:07] Cameron McEwen: Say the fourth world is the tech body.

[1:07:10] Cameron McEwen: In the fourth world,

[1:07:12] Cameron McEwen: the undeveloping world is certainly not very large anymore,

[1:07:18] Cameron McEwen: but it's those cultures which have remained cultures as opposed to the sort of artificial stage cultures that most of the world has become.

[1:07:34] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:07:35] Bob Dobbs: you're talking about the aboriginal cultures that maintain their identity.

[1:07:38] Cameron McEwen: Correct,

[1:07:39] Cameron McEwen: correct.

[1:07:41] Cameron McEwen: So the fourth world,

[1:07:42] Cameron McEwen: to me,

[1:07:43] Cameron McEwen: doesn't seem like the tech body.

[1:07:45] Cameron McEwen: It seems to me to be anchors that the world desperately needs.

[1:07:54] Cameron McEwen: The world needs to not come totally loose from the sort of paleolithic.

[1:08:05] Cameron McEwen: consciousness of itself that is the best part of the world.

[1:08:11] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:08:11] Bob Dobbs: So the electric world,

[1:08:12] Bob Dobbs: there's actually five worlds.

[1:08:13] Bob Dobbs: So there is the fourth world,

[1:08:15] Bob Dobbs: the aboriginal,

[1:08:15] Bob Dobbs: then there's the fifth world,

[1:08:16] Bob Dobbs: which is the tech body,

[1:08:18] Bob Dobbs: which is the world that goes around all of them.

[1:08:20] Bob Dobbs: But you see in Canada,

[1:08:22] Bob Dobbs: since people see the aboriginal as their anchor,

[1:08:24] Bob Dobbs: they now have to pray and thank and bless all the local tribes of Canada.

[1:08:32] Bob Dobbs: Nobody does anything without making a...

[1:08:34] Bob Dobbs: And acknowledgement of the tribes now.

[1:08:35] Bob Dobbs: You know about that trend up in Canada?

[1:08:37] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:08:37] Cameron McEwen: well,

[1:08:37] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.

[1:08:38] Cameron McEwen: Every letter,

[1:08:39] Cameron McEwen: every proclamation talks about that.

[1:08:44] Cameron McEwen: And I don't know if you know this,

[1:08:45] Cameron McEwen: but in Winnipeg,

[1:08:47] Cameron McEwen: one of the biggest buildings in town used to be the Hudson's Bay Company store.

[1:08:53] Cameron McEwen: It was a huge store.

[1:08:55] Cameron McEwen: I think it was the biggest store in the

[1:08:58] Cameron McEwen: HBC empire.

[1:09:00] Cameron McEwen: And that huge store has...

[1:09:03] Cameron McEwen: just been given to the local tribes.

[1:09:05] Bob Dobbs: Wow.

[1:09:06] Bob Dobbs: They live in it.

[1:09:07] Cameron McEwen: That's in the middle of Winnipeg.

[1:09:10] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:09:11] Cameron McEwen: some of it's going to be for living,

[1:09:12] Cameron McEwen: some of it's going to be a museum,

[1:09:14] Cameron McEwen: some of it's going to be all sorts of things.

[1:09:17] Cameron McEwen: But this is at the very heart of Winnipeg.

[1:09:22] Cameron McEwen: It's not too far from the Manitoba Legislative Building,

[1:09:26] Cameron McEwen: and it's a kind of a symbol of what you were just talking about.

[1:09:31] Cameron McEwen: It's the

[1:09:32] Cameron McEwen: Canadians are trying to sort of make up for their identity.

[1:09:38] Bob Dobbs: Find a pure root for their identity.

[1:09:40] Bob Dobbs: A pure root.

[1:09:40] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[1:09:41] Cameron McEwen: But also at the same time to sort of acknowledge their guilt and to shit on themselves.

[1:09:50] Cameron McEwen: What used to be good about Canada,

[1:09:52] Cameron McEwen: namely it was not just phoning Uncle Sam and saying,

[1:09:59] Cameron McEwen: what should we do today?

[1:10:02] Cameron McEwen: So Lester Pearson,

[1:10:03] Cameron McEwen: for example,

[1:10:04] Cameron McEwen: was sort of an independent guy.

[1:10:08] Cameron McEwen: And even the first Trudeau was fairly independent.

[1:10:13] Cameron McEwen: Nowadays,

[1:10:15] Cameron McEwen: Canadians just think that their cultures,

[1:10:18] Cameron McEwen: the French culture or the

[1:10:21] Cameron McEwen: English

[1:10:22] Cameron McEwen: Protestant culture,

[1:10:24] Cameron McEwen: all of that is bullshit.

[1:10:27] Cameron McEwen: So we have to throw all that away.

[1:10:30] Cameron McEwen: acknowledge what terrible people we are and get in line with the United States and go to war in Ukraine.

[1:10:40] Cameron McEwen: We don't look after people in Canada anymore.

[1:10:43] Cameron McEwen: We give everything that we have to Ukraine.

[1:10:47] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:10:48] Bob Dobbs: See,

[1:10:49] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[1:10:49] Bob Dobbs: so this is a flip on the...

[1:10:53] Bob Dobbs: Kroker invented the dark tetrad.

[1:10:55] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:10:55] Bob Dobbs: that process where the previous one becomes an art form,

[1:10:59] Bob Dobbs: make it a dark image.

[1:11:00] Bob Dobbs: It becomes a torture chamber or something.

[1:11:02] Bob Dobbs: So the English and French white people culture,

[1:11:06] Bob Dobbs: it became so Kostelanetz,

[1:11:07] Bob Dobbs: it became a torture chamber.

[1:11:09] Bob Dobbs: Like you're saying,

[1:11:09] Bob Dobbs: shitting on yourself.

[1:11:12] Bob Dobbs: And not trying to save it.

[1:11:13] Bob Dobbs: You send your welfare money across the world.

[1:11:16] Bob Dobbs: to Ukraine.

[1:11:18] Bob Dobbs: So you can see that the average chemical body is sitting there.

[1:11:22] Bob Dobbs: What the hell is going on?

[1:11:23] Bob Dobbs: You can see that the world becomes a surreal,

[1:11:26] Bob Dobbs: whatever avant-garde art that disturbed people,

[1:11:30] Bob Dobbs: so much of the world's environments the tech body are doing the old role of cubism or Stravinsky's music,

[1:11:38] Bob Dobbs: and it caused a riot.

[1:11:39] Bob Dobbs: It's happening to everybody every day as they walk around and they're not even sure where they are when they're walking.

[1:11:45] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[1:11:45] Bob Dobbs: So they stay home.

[1:11:47] Bob Dobbs: See,

[1:11:47] Bob Dobbs: everybody becomes a hotel hermit.

[1:11:49] Bob Dobbs: That's the

[1:11:53] Bob Dobbs: Howard Hughes phase.

[1:11:56] Bob Dobbs: So Epstein is an interesting,

[1:11:59] Bob Dobbs: super active.

[1:12:03] Bob Dobbs: He's transactive.

[1:12:04] Bob Dobbs: He's universal.

[1:12:05] Bob Dobbs: But Clooney used to say,

[1:12:06] Bob Dobbs: remember that the op-ed,

[1:12:09] Bob Dobbs: Media Approach to Inflation,

[1:12:10] Bob Dobbs: he talked about Kissinger was

[1:12:12] Bob Dobbs: A this,

[1:12:13] Bob Dobbs: a that,

[1:12:14] Bob Dobbs: a teacher,

[1:12:14] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:12:14] Bob Dobbs: he named various roles that Kissinger had.

[1:12:17] Bob Dobbs: Epstein was doing many roles.

[1:12:19] Bob Dobbs: He was running Acadia University down in the Caribbean,

[1:12:23] Bob Dobbs: trying to find out where the Atlantis was rising.

[1:12:25] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:12:26] Bob Dobbs: he was doing that.

[1:12:27] Bob Dobbs: That's what

[1:12:28] Bob Dobbs: Maxwell was doing,

[1:12:30] Bob Dobbs: his girlfriend.

[1:12:31] Bob Dobbs: She had this whole project out there to find out the secrets of the ocean.

[1:12:37] Bob Dobbs: But he also was trying to solve aging.

[1:12:40] Bob Dobbs: He was doing everything.

[1:12:43] Bob Dobbs: We probably don't even realize all the stuff that he was doing,

[1:12:47] Bob Dobbs: which is what everybody does,

[1:12:48] Bob Dobbs: dude.

[1:12:49] Bob Dobbs: Everybody in the affluent world is hopping from one mythic state to another.

[1:12:56] Bob Dobbs: Or collapsing and retreating and becoming a hermit for a while.

[1:13:01] Bob Dobbs: They call that lockdown.

[1:13:03] Bob Dobbs: That was a big excuse.

[1:13:06] Bob Dobbs: Everybody wanted to retreat,

[1:13:08] Bob Dobbs: and so they claimed there was a plague.

[1:13:12] Cameron McEwen: They can't find where it was.

[1:13:14] Cameron McEwen: Did that plague really happen?

[1:13:16] Cameron McEwen: It just wasn't COVID.

[1:13:18] Bob Dobbs: Beg your pardon?

[1:13:19] Cameron McEwen: There was a plague,

[1:13:20] Cameron McEwen: but it wasn't COVID.

[1:13:20] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:13:20] Bob Dobbs: it wasn't COVID.

[1:13:21] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[1:13:24] Cameron McEwen: Tell me this,

[1:13:24] Cameron McEwen: Bob.

[1:13:26] Cameron McEwen: What's the ground on which something like super angels is exposed?

[1:13:38] Bob Dobbs: I don't know.

[1:13:39] Bob Dobbs: Maybe non-physical?

[1:13:41] Bob Dobbs: Maybe that's what iON is.

[1:13:44] Bob Dobbs: Because I go through this pattern that we extended our faculties and our bodies,

[1:13:49] Bob Dobbs: and then the final extension was the planet,

[1:13:51] Bob Dobbs: our habitat.

[1:13:52] Bob Dobbs: That was a satellite.

[1:13:54] Bob Dobbs: And then you have technologies extending technologies,

[1:13:58] Bob Dobbs: and that's still within the physical.

[1:14:00] Bob Dobbs: And then I say ion is a new technology.

[1:14:03] Bob Dobbs: It's an extension of non-physical.

[1:14:05] Bob Dobbs: So maybe something about the super angel exposes the non-physical.

[1:14:12] Bob Dobbs: Because angels,

[1:14:13] Bob Dobbs: they're half physical.

[1:14:15] Bob Dobbs: They come here and they leave,

[1:14:16] Bob Dobbs: and they go to the astral plane or wherever,

[1:14:18] Bob Dobbs: and they come back.

[1:14:20] Bob Dobbs: But pure non-physical would be what a super angel is not.

[1:14:25] Bob Dobbs: So that's just a quick instant pattern that just came to me.

[1:14:28] Bob Dobbs: I just channeled that.

[1:14:30] Bob Dobbs: You asked me a question,

[1:14:31] Bob Dobbs: I went into channel,

[1:14:32] Bob Dobbs: I went into trance there.

[1:14:34] Bob Dobbs: It's not bad.

[1:14:35] Bob Dobbs: It's actually close to how I think about the super angel state.

[1:14:38] Bob Dobbs: So yeah,

[1:14:39] Bob Dobbs: we've got super angel.

[1:14:40] Bob Dobbs: Epstein is Super Angel's torture chamber because he's been Super Angel for a long time.

[1:14:50] Bob Dobbs: Are you there?

[1:14:51] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:14:51] Cameron McEwen: I'm here.

[1:14:52] Cameron McEwen: I'm trying to keep up.

[1:14:55] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[1:14:56] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[1:14:59] Cameron McEwen: And perhaps not all that successfully.

[1:15:03] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:15:04] Cameron McEwen: I feel like what I'm doing is an interview.

[1:15:08] Cameron McEwen: And I find it all very interesting.

[1:15:13] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:15:13] Bob Dobbs: you're being interviewed,

[1:15:14] Bob Dobbs: and then the interviewer went mad with pattern recognition.

[1:15:19] Bob Dobbs: So you had to watch me interview myself.

[1:15:24] Cameron McEwen: That's fine.

[1:15:25] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:15:26] Bob Dobbs: that makes sense.

[1:15:27] Cameron McEwen: I have no problem with that.

[1:15:28] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:15:28] Bob Dobbs: that's the process.

[1:15:29] Cameron McEwen: I can say that's the ideal interviewer.

[1:15:32] Cameron McEwen: He allows the interviewee to become the interviewer.

[1:15:36] Cameron McEwen: Of himself or herself.

[1:15:39] Bob Dobbs: It becomes a fitting piece.

[1:15:40] Bob Dobbs: You can't tell who's interviewing who.

[1:15:42] Bob Dobbs: Often it's fitting its wake.

[1:15:44] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:15:44] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[1:15:45] Bob Dobbs: And they're often doing it through mediumship.

[1:15:47] Bob Dobbs: There's always trances happening and weird Explorations through the trances.

[1:15:54] Bob Dobbs: And eventually they try to find HCE.

[1:15:56] Bob Dobbs: And then they finally do get H.C.E.

[1:15:58] Bob Dobbs: when he comes through

[1:16:01] Bob Dobbs: Yawn, I think it is,

[1:16:02] Bob Dobbs: one of the Shaun mutations,

[1:16:05] Bob Dobbs: channels

[1:16:06] Bob Dobbs: HCE. And then HCE.

[1:16:09] Bob Dobbs: goes on for about 20 pages celebrating what he had done.

[1:16:14] Bob Dobbs: All the technologies they've made.

[1:16:16] Bob Dobbs: So it's interesting how Joyce,

[1:16:19] Bob Dobbs: it's like McLuhan said,

[1:16:21] Bob Dobbs: if you thought of a new idea,

[1:16:22] Bob Dobbs: you go check the wake.

[1:16:23] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[1:16:23] Bob Dobbs: Joyce got there first.

[1:16:27] Bob Dobbs: You heard him say that,

[1:16:28] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:16:29] Bob Dobbs: They kept finding

[1:16:32] Bob Dobbs: Joyce got there first.

[1:16:34] Bob Dobbs: And it was almost like Joyce,

[1:16:36] Bob Dobbs: he just let himself go,

[1:16:37] Bob Dobbs: and he just expressed as crazy as possible so that he could be.

[1:16:44] Bob Dobbs: keeping up with the craziness that was coming he could see something like that was happening so he had to purposely be as ridiculous in his book that was just that would approximate what was happening what would have now you have it's a book of hyper texting yeah

[1:17:02] Cameron McEwen: he was

[1:17:04] Cameron McEwen: I think what I would say in my ignorance of the wake is that

[1:17:14] Cameron McEwen: Joyce is kind of surfing on,

[1:17:21] Cameron McEwen: I don't want to say archetypes,

[1:17:23] Cameron McEwen: but he's surfing on the dynamics of especially language.

[1:17:29] Bob Dobbs: Epstein was surfing the super angel state,

[1:17:33] Bob Dobbs: the Global Membrane.

[1:17:34] Bob Dobbs: That's what Epstein's doing.

[1:17:37] Bob Dobbs: We're all skin diving through all the environments,

[1:17:40] Bob Dobbs: not just liquid,

[1:17:42] Bob Dobbs: not just water.

[1:17:44] Bob Dobbs: or even going out into space.

[1:17:45] Bob Dobbs: Every media afterimage is anti-environment that we're skin diving in,

[1:17:52] Bob Dobbs: or what is it?

[1:17:52] Bob Dobbs: Deep diving.

[1:17:53] Bob Dobbs: The deep state.

[1:17:56] Cameron McEwen: But doesn't that return to

[1:17:59] Cameron McEwen: Carl Jung,

[1:18:00] Cameron McEwen: as we were talking about earlier tonight?

[1:18:03] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:18:04] Bob Dobbs: so here's what I wanted to say for a while.

[1:18:07] Bob Dobbs: It kept popping in and out.

[1:18:10] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan talked about the men of 1914,

[1:18:12] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:18:12] Bob Dobbs: Pound,

[1:18:12] Bob Dobbs: Elliott.

[1:18:14] Bob Dobbs: Joyce and Lewis,

[1:18:15] Bob Dobbs: there's his tetrad.

[1:18:17] Bob Dobbs: And he was not saying,

[1:18:19] Bob Dobbs: hey,

[1:18:19] Bob Dobbs: go study Lewis,

[1:18:22] Bob Dobbs: go study Joyce,

[1:18:23] Bob Dobbs: Pound,

[1:18:23] Bob Dobbs: or Eliot.

[1:18:24] Bob Dobbs: They all were an effect of radio.

[1:18:28] Bob Dobbs: They became their weird new forms of expression because of a collective effect of radio.

[1:18:34] Bob Dobbs: And Jung comes out of radio.

[1:18:37] Bob Dobbs: So he wrote a novel too,

[1:18:39] Bob Dobbs: but it was disguised as psychology,

[1:18:42] Bob Dobbs: coming out of Freud.

[1:18:43] Bob Dobbs: So I'm relating

[1:18:47] Bob Dobbs: Jung's archetypes to the effect on those four guys,

[1:18:54] Bob Dobbs: and maybe you could put in Virginia Woolf or somebody like that,

[1:18:58] Bob Dobbs: and they are responding anti-environment so that the radio movie matrix generated this creativity.

[1:19:06] Bob Dobbs: That's what McLuhan was trying to point out.

[1:19:08] Bob Dobbs: He said the human archetype is that we now know how to create cultures.

[1:19:13] Bob Dobbs: Remember that in Catholic humanism?

[1:19:15] Bob Dobbs: Is that where he says it?

[1:19:17] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:19:18] Cameron McEwen: But it's not the case that we just look around and there's a radio over in the corner and we say,

[1:19:29] Cameron McEwen: there's a medium.

[1:19:30] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:19:31] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[1:19:33] Bob Dobbs: The medium is the service environment and all the effects.

[1:19:36] Bob Dobbs: So radio was this invisible environment and the medium was the new artifacts that Joyce and them were producing.

[1:19:43] Bob Dobbs: They were taking the old book culture and mutating it.

[1:19:46] Bob Dobbs: So you knew,

[1:19:47] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[1:19:47] Bob Dobbs: if these guys are making weird new books,

[1:19:49] Bob Dobbs: we know something's sneaking around causing that.

[1:19:55] Bob Dobbs: That's how you know there's a anti-environment.

[1:19:56] Cameron McEwen: Causing it or being expressed through it?

[1:20:00] Cameron McEwen: Say that again?

[1:20:01] Cameron McEwen: I say,

[1:20:05] Cameron McEwen: is the anti-environment causing something?

[1:20:08] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:20:08] Cameron McEwen: Or is it being expressed?

[1:20:10] Bob Dobbs: It's shaking up the old medium.

[1:20:12] Bob Dobbs: The medium is the old.

[1:20:14] Bob Dobbs: The society as it's developed and everybody's using the tools.

[1:20:17] Bob Dobbs: Then a new technology comes in, is having an effect.

[1:20:22] Bob Dobbs: It is a new medium,

[1:20:23] Bob Dobbs: but it's not the medium that McLuhan on.

[1:20:25] Bob Dobbs: But we know there's a new medium because the actual medium,

[1:20:29] Bob Dobbs: all the developed technology the society knows it has and knows how to do the routine use of them,

[1:20:36] Bob Dobbs: that starts getting stirred up.

[1:20:39] Bob Dobbs: It starts to have a meltdown.

[1:20:41] Cameron McEwen: The big problem here,

[1:20:42] Cameron McEwen: Bob,

[1:20:42] Cameron McEwen: is that

[1:20:43] Cameron McEwen: When...

[1:20:45] Cameron McEwen: people quote-unquote do

[1:20:47] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan, then they think more or less in terms like we're talking about here,

[1:20:54] Cameron McEwen: where you have one environment and you have another environment,

[1:20:57] Cameron McEwen: and there's effects of the one,

[1:20:58] Cameron McEwen: and there's effects of the breakdown of it,

[1:21:01] Cameron McEwen: and then there's a new one and all this stuff.

[1:21:03] Cameron McEwen: But as soon as we begin to think that environments and identities are plural,

[1:21:14] Cameron McEwen: and they rebound on the kind of probing and investigation that we're doing now,

[1:21:25] Cameron McEwen: then all of these things become very complicated.

[1:21:29] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:21:30] Bob Dobbs: that's your plural.

[1:21:32] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:21:32] Cameron McEwen: And so when we say,

[1:21:34] Cameron McEwen: oh,

[1:21:34] Cameron McEwen: men of 1914,

[1:21:35] Cameron McEwen: you have your tetrad of the four guys,

[1:21:37] Cameron McEwen: and they're a product of the radio,

[1:21:40] Cameron McEwen: and it starts to happen.

[1:21:44] Cameron McEwen: 1908 with the flowers in 1914 or something.

[1:21:49] Cameron McEwen: All of this,

[1:21:50] Cameron McEwen: to me,

[1:21:51] Cameron McEwen: just sounds like a story that people can talk about,

[1:21:58] Cameron McEwen: they can make their living writing about this sort of stuff.

[1:22:02] Cameron McEwen: But it's not where it's at.

[1:22:05] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:22:05] Bob Dobbs: that's where McLuhan was on a new level.

[1:22:08] Bob Dobbs: He was not there to make a novel or to make a movie.

[1:22:11] Bob Dobbs: He was showing what the creative process,

[1:22:13] Bob Dobbs: all the

[1:22:15] Bob Dobbs: Gutenberg environments that were making wealth,

[1:22:17] Bob Dobbs: he was showing what the services and disservices of that was.

[1:22:21] Bob Dobbs: And that's what we need to get a handle on.

[1:22:24] Bob Dobbs: And he thought we could do it because we were living at the level he saw we were all living.

[1:22:29] Bob Dobbs: You just had to have a poet like him name the characteristics.

[1:22:33] Bob Dobbs: You had to have people pay attention to that,

[1:22:35] Bob Dobbs: figure out what he meant,

[1:22:36] Bob Dobbs: and then they could see what he's saying.

[1:22:37] Bob Dobbs: Then there'd be this,

[1:22:38] Bob Dobbs: what he called,

[1:22:39] Bob Dobbs: complex clairvoyance.

[1:22:41] Bob Dobbs: about what the tensions were caused by.

[1:22:49] Cameron McEwen: And so do you think that we're in that process and that's a good thing,

[1:22:57] Cameron McEwen: or do you think we're in a different process?

[1:23:01] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:23:01] Bob Dobbs: I was going to say that your idea of pluralizing is the decentralizing aspect of anti-environment.

[1:23:10] Bob Dobbs: it breaks up or something or a anti-environment allows it to break up so uh and people talking about how we're decentralizing well that's been going on for 150 years and it would be your pluralizing you know you have an identity and then it pluralizes that's a decentralization of yourself right

[1:23:28] Cameron McEwen: but the old the old identity may have thought of itself as a unity and as fixed or something it really wasn't yeah you thought it was centralized you

[1:23:40] Cameron McEwen: It itself was plural,

[1:23:43] Cameron McEwen: and all that history did was expose the plurality that blew up the identity,

[1:23:54] Cameron McEwen: the unity.

[1:23:55] Bob Dobbs: The plurality that was there,

[1:23:56] Bob Dobbs: and what they called it unconscious.

[1:23:59] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[1:24:00] Cameron McEwen: And so history,

[1:24:01] Cameron McEwen: you can say history is like a piano,

[1:24:06] Cameron McEwen: and various notes get...

[1:24:09] Cameron McEwen: played in time,

[1:24:11] Cameron McEwen: but the piano is a constant.

[1:24:14] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:24:15] Cameron McEwen: The player piano.

[1:24:18] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:24:19] Cameron McEwen: Okay,

[1:24:19] Cameron McEwen: good.

[1:24:20] Cameron McEwen: You know how that's automatic?

[1:24:22] Cameron McEwen: Is the tech body the designer of the role that plays the player piano?

[1:24:30] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:24:30] Bob Dobbs: The tech body is embedded in everything.

[1:24:33] Bob Dobbs: This is how I define it.

[1:24:34] Bob Dobbs: And it talks to us.

[1:24:36] Bob Dobbs: It says that's what it is.

[1:24:38] Bob Dobbs: The whole panoply of the information society that you're aware of around you,

[1:24:44] Bob Dobbs: that's all tech body massaged.

[1:24:47] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:24:48] Bob Dobbs: ION says they will take a

[1:24:51] Bob Dobbs: Tantramar period and look at a million TikToks.

[1:24:54] Bob Dobbs: ION claims they can do that.

[1:24:56] Bob Dobbs: And they pick out the best,

[1:24:57] Bob Dobbs: and they send them to Bert,

[1:24:58] Bob Dobbs: and then Bert sends them to ION and Bob,

[1:24:59] Bob Dobbs: and then you ignore it all.

[1:25:03] Bob Dobbs: They just keep flowing out of the page.

[1:25:04] Bob Dobbs: They've ruined our website,

[1:25:06] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:25:06] Bob Dobbs: There's so many of them there.

[1:25:09] Bob Dobbs: They come from ION.

[1:25:11] Cameron McEwen: It's true that I don't look at the website anymore.

[1:25:13] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:25:14] Bob Dobbs: Do you even look at the site?

[1:25:16] Cameron McEwen: No.

[1:25:17] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[1:25:17] Cameron McEwen: see,

[1:25:17] Bob Dobbs: it's just too much.

[1:25:18] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:25:20] Bob Dobbs: We blew it.

[1:25:21] Bob Dobbs: Our main scholar study has gave up.

[1:25:25] Bob Dobbs: He had tech body.

[1:25:26] Bob Dobbs: He got kicked out of the room.

[1:25:27] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[1:25:28] Bob Dobbs: And that's caused by ION.

[1:25:32] Bob Dobbs: Ed doesn't look for them.

[1:25:33] Bob Dobbs: He looks for all the other news stuff,

[1:25:35] Bob Dobbs: which is very good,

[1:25:35] Bob Dobbs: what he finds.

[1:25:37] Bob Dobbs: But the tip thoughts,

[1:25:37] Bob Dobbs: it's always his thanks,

[1:25:39] Bob Dobbs: Bert.

[1:25:40] Bob Dobbs: And Bert says,

[1:25:41] Bob Dobbs: thanks,

[1:25:41] Bob Dobbs: Ion.

[1:25:45] Bob Dobbs: So that's an interesting maelstrom at Ion and Bob,

[1:25:47] Bob Dobbs: isn't it?

[1:25:48] Bob Dobbs: Really?

[1:25:49] Bob Dobbs: I had thought of it that way.

[1:25:50] Bob Dobbs: It's become an interesting maelstrom.

[1:25:53] Cameron McEwen: You look at the

[1:25:55] Cameron McEwen: TikTok?

[1:25:57] Bob Dobbs: I look at the TikTok.

[1:25:57] Bob Dobbs: I have to because Ian's going to refer to them in my private session.

[1:26:00] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:26:02] Bob Dobbs: I have to see what

[1:26:03] Bob Dobbs: iON is referring to.

[1:26:05] Bob Dobbs: I'm about 10

[1:26:07] Bob Dobbs: TikToks behind,

[1:26:08] Bob Dobbs: but I will eventually go through them.

[1:26:12] Cameron McEwen: And so this is a kind of language.

[1:26:15] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:26:15] Cameron McEwen: it's a anti-environment.

[1:26:17] Bob Dobbs: It's an aspect of the tech body.

[1:26:20] Bob Dobbs: And Ion says that they can scan and see millions of them.

[1:26:24] Bob Dobbs: They can do that on YouTube.

[1:26:26] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:26:26] Bob Dobbs: Ion had his own YouTube channel.

[1:26:29] Bob Dobbs: Nobody made it.

[1:26:30] Bob Dobbs: Ion made it.

[1:26:31] Bob Dobbs: You could say,

[1:26:31] Bob Dobbs: oh,

[1:26:32] Bob Dobbs: JW did it.

[1:26:32] Bob Dobbs: But JW doesn't know anything about computers.

[1:26:34] Bob Dobbs: He didn't do it.

[1:26:35] Bob Dobbs: He didn't care.

[1:26:37] Bob Dobbs: But Ion,

[1:26:37] Bob Dobbs: for years,

[1:26:38] Bob Dobbs: had a website which just pilots 1,000 YouTubes.

[1:26:42] Bob Dobbs: Just kept piling them in there.

[1:26:44] Bob Dobbs: You couldn't keep up.

[1:26:46] Bob Dobbs: And Posthuman was making it,

[1:26:51] Bob Dobbs: as far as we knew,

[1:26:52] Cameron McEwen: you know?

[1:26:53] Cameron McEwen: When you talk about a million TikToks,

[1:26:55] Cameron McEwen: or you talk about thousands and thousands of YouTubes or something.

[1:26:59] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:26:59] Bob Dobbs: the little TikToks,

[1:27:00] Bob Dobbs: the three minutes.

[1:27:01] Cameron McEwen: But isn't this a way of talking about all-at-onceness?

[1:27:07] Bob Dobbs: Yep.

[1:27:09] Cameron McEwen: It's not that there's more and more and more TikToks through time.

[1:27:13] Cameron McEwen: It's that all TikToks...

[1:27:15] Cameron McEwen: in a certain sense are excavated now.

[1:27:19] Cameron McEwen: Excavated.

[1:27:19] Cameron McEwen: There's only so many possibilities.

[1:27:21] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:27:21] Bob Dobbs: that's why I could do it.

[1:27:23] Bob Dobbs: He knows they're already existing.

[1:27:24] Bob Dobbs: He just digs them up,

[1:27:26] Bob Dobbs: excavates them.

[1:27:30] Bob Dobbs: But it's a pretty incredible phenomenon.

[1:27:32] Bob Dobbs: First,

[1:27:33] Bob Dobbs: his YouTube channel,

[1:27:35] Bob Dobbs: which is piled in YouTubes,

[1:27:37] Bob Dobbs: every kind of music and content.

[1:27:40] Bob Dobbs: And often he'd be on the show,

[1:27:43] Bob Dobbs: he'd refer to one,

[1:27:44] Bob Dobbs: and no one knew what it was.

[1:27:46] Bob Dobbs: He'd name somebody we never heard of,

[1:27:48] Bob Dobbs: and then you'd look and,

[1:27:49] Bob Dobbs: oh,

[1:27:49] Bob Dobbs: that's one of some YouTubes he found.

[1:27:52] Bob Dobbs: Ion is forever,

[1:27:54] Bob Dobbs: much like a tick body,

[1:27:55] Bob Dobbs: scanning everything.

[1:27:56] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:27:56] Bob Dobbs: it's not human,

[1:27:57] Bob Dobbs: it doesn't need to eat.

[1:28:00] Bob Dobbs: The only thing it has to do is to keep JW alive,

[1:28:02] Bob Dobbs: and that's a major operation because his body is completely mutating.

[1:28:09] Bob Dobbs: like everybody is if you're on our products.

[1:28:12] Bob Dobbs: And so the doctors look at him and they say,

[1:28:15] Bob Dobbs: you should have been dead two years ago,

[1:28:17] Bob Dobbs: J.W.

[1:28:17] Bob Dobbs: None of this makes any sense.

[1:28:20] Bob Dobbs: And he's laughing because he's feeling good and he knows the body chemistry doesn't follow the old rules anymore.

[1:28:25] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:28:25] Bob Dobbs: there's an interesting massage,

[1:28:28] Bob Dobbs: is that the image of matter that science has built up the last 200 years or so,

[1:28:33] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:28:33] Bob Dobbs: chemistry and physics and that,

[1:28:36] Bob Dobbs: the periodic table doesn't apply anymore.

[1:28:38] Bob Dobbs: So.

[1:28:39] Bob Dobbs: Ion tells Carolyn,

[1:28:42] Bob Dobbs: this substance doesn't do that anymore.

[1:28:44] Bob Dobbs: It's doing this,

[1:28:44] Bob Dobbs: so you're going to make a product to deal with that.

[1:28:47] Bob Dobbs: It's unbelievable what we're making and what it's based on.

[1:28:51] Bob Dobbs: It's not based on standard knowledge.

[1:28:53] Bob Dobbs: It's about how standard knowledge and that old matter,

[1:28:57] Bob Dobbs: which has been mutated by the tech body,

[1:28:59] Bob Dobbs: is a new phenomenon.

[1:29:00] Bob Dobbs: It has new rules.

[1:29:04] Bob Dobbs: We don't play that on the radio.

[1:29:05] Bob Dobbs: That's a secret part of our private session,

[1:29:07] Bob Dobbs: which we do.

[1:29:09] Bob Dobbs: pretty well every week and once a week so it um so i select what i can reveal but there are drug companies and everybody is monitoring our uh my private sessions when i play them because they want to find out what carol knows but we don't let it out but we're getting so far ahead of everybody that

[1:29:28] Bob Dobbs: i am said they can't catch up so we're going to start revealing more and more parts of uh Carolyn uh private session where she does the science

[1:29:37] Bob Dobbs: So we did it a couple of shows ago,

[1:29:39] Bob Dobbs: and people were amazed at what actually is talked about privately with Carolyn.

[1:29:46] Cameron McEwen: So when you talk about the tech body mutating chemistry,

[1:29:53] Cameron McEwen: let's say.

[1:29:53] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:29:54] Bob Dobbs: chemistry of matter,

[1:29:55] Bob Dobbs: whatever the rules of matter are,

[1:29:57] Cameron McEwen: the constituents.

[1:29:59] Cameron McEwen: So,

[1:29:59] Cameron McEwen: yeah,

[1:29:59] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:30:00] Cameron McEwen: is this something that is just happening?

[1:30:06] Cameron McEwen: And as McLuhan would say,

[1:30:09] Cameron McEwen: we can't talk about it as a good thing or a bad thing.

[1:30:13] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:30:13] Cameron McEwen: It's just something to study.

[1:30:15] Cameron McEwen: Is that what it is,

[1:30:16] Cameron McEwen: or is it something?

[1:30:18] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:30:19] Bob Dobbs: I'm explaining that the poles flipped and are flipping,

[1:30:22] Bob Dobbs: and this is going to cause the Earth to vomit.

[1:30:24] Bob Dobbs: So there's incredible I have a woman out in Asia.

[1:30:27] Bob Dobbs: She monitors the earthquakes.

[1:30:29] Bob Dobbs: Every six hours,

[1:30:31] Bob Dobbs: she sends me four more earthquake rumblings,

[1:30:33] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:30:34] Bob Dobbs: 5.6.

[1:30:35] Bob Dobbs: 6.3,

[1:30:36] Bob Dobbs: all over the place,

[1:30:37] Bob Dobbs: but a lot of it in the Pacific Rim.

[1:30:39] Bob Dobbs: So it's exploding there.

[1:30:41] Bob Dobbs: And then you've got the

[1:30:42] Bob Dobbs: Al2, aluminum squared sulfur

[1:30:46] Bob Dobbs: SO4, sulfur dioxide.

[1:30:47] Bob Dobbs: That is taking over anti-environment.

[1:30:49] Bob Dobbs: The carbon is increasing.

[1:30:52] Bob Dobbs: There's a lot of stuff that iON lays out that's happening.

[1:30:55] Bob Dobbs: So we have a total mutation of matter,

[1:30:58] Bob Dobbs: and a popular way to say it is frequencies are changing.

[1:31:01] Bob Dobbs: So the frequencies of matter are mingling and creating new forms.

[1:31:06] Bob Dobbs: So when scientists look at our products,

[1:31:09] Bob Dobbs: they can't see what's doing it.

[1:31:11] Bob Dobbs: They say there's nothing in here.

[1:31:13] Bob Dobbs: They can't see it because it's got this invisible level of non-physical input.

[1:31:19] Cameron McEwen: But that's good for the

[1:31:20] Cameron McEwen: FDA, right?

[1:31:22] Cameron McEwen: Because the FDA loves to shut people down.

[1:31:27] Bob Dobbs: That's what they did.

[1:31:30] Bob Dobbs: They totally...

[1:31:31] Bob Dobbs: freaked out and they kept charging her warehouse and trying to find problems but jenny who managed it was on top of it and when they we they couldn't find any rules were breaking we had studies that proved that our stuff was absorbed and all that so they just said fuck you stop

[1:31:47] Bob Dobbs: it and they told her to stop having a radio show like the the controversial dr oz or uh there's a guy named mercola and Gary Null they they're always getting attacked but they survive it.

[1:32:00] Bob Dobbs: and they're allowed to keep doing their radio shows.

[1:32:02] Bob Dobbs: Carol's not allowed to do a radio show.

[1:32:03] Bob Dobbs: It's just too much good news,

[1:32:05] Bob Dobbs: and the FDA can't take it.

[1:32:06] Bob Dobbs: She's not allowed to have patients call in and say,

[1:32:09] Bob Dobbs: well,

[1:32:09] Bob Dobbs: I got fixed.

[1:32:09] Bob Dobbs: I'm cured.

[1:32:10] Bob Dobbs: There's too much going on.

[1:32:13] Bob Dobbs: But we're not controlled by that.

[1:32:16] Bob Dobbs: We just went into China for flexing.

[1:32:18] Bob Dobbs: Look at that.

[1:32:19] Bob Dobbs: Our products are going into China.

[1:32:22] Bob Dobbs: It can't stop us.

[1:32:24] Bob Dobbs: So that's a whole interesting drama.

[1:32:26] Cameron McEwen: What I was trying to say is that if...

[1:32:31] Cameron McEwen: What you're doing is not something measurable,

[1:32:34] Cameron McEwen: is not something that can be...

[1:32:38] Bob Dobbs: Inconventional measurements.

[1:32:40] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[1:32:42] Cameron McEwen: That's a great defense against the

[1:32:47] Cameron McEwen: FDA because it's only interested in stuff that it can measure.

[1:32:51] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[1:32:53] Bob Dobbs: And so they blatantly broke all rules and said,

[1:32:57] Bob Dobbs: you cannot speak.

[1:32:58] Bob Dobbs: No more show.

[1:33:01] Bob Dobbs: And that allowed Carol to do other stuff,

[1:33:04] Bob Dobbs: which it was a good break because she did this show since 2012.

[1:33:08] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:33:09] Bob Dobbs: 10 years of show every week.

[1:33:12] Bob Dobbs: A very active show.

[1:33:13] Bob Dobbs: A lot of people calling in testimonies and all that.

[1:33:16] Bob Dobbs: But the FDA is monitoring it.

[1:33:18] Bob Dobbs: They know what we got.

[1:33:19] Bob Dobbs: And that's the secret stuff I'm involved in.

[1:33:22] Bob Dobbs: And you would be amazed at who JW met with today and what's being organized.

[1:33:29] Bob Dobbs: Certainly we're not going to talk about it,

[1:33:31] Bob Dobbs: but the authorities,

[1:33:35] Bob Dobbs: a lot of them have given up trying to figure out how we're getting away with it,

[1:33:39] Bob Dobbs: and they've joined us.

[1:33:41] Bob Dobbs: That's another interesting phenomenon.

[1:33:44] Bob Dobbs: So anyways,

[1:33:45] Bob Dobbs: that's oh,

[1:33:46] Bob Dobbs: so what?

[1:33:47] Bob Dobbs: We're just talking about you can't measure it?

[1:33:49] Bob Dobbs: Look at the last line in Laws of Media,

[1:33:52] Bob Dobbs: second last line.

[1:33:54] Bob Dobbs: Eric Wright,

[1:33:55] Bob Dobbs: I assume that the present media environment...

[1:33:58] Bob Dobbs: It can't,

[1:33:59] Bob Dobbs: what did he say,

[1:33:59] Bob Dobbs: it can't be charted and it's unchartable?

[1:34:03] Bob Dobbs: You know that sentence at the end of Laws of Media?

[1:34:05] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:34:06] Cameron McEwen: yeah,

[1:34:06] Cameron McEwen: I do.

[1:34:07] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:34:08] Bob Dobbs: I use McLuhan as a jumping off.

[1:34:10] Bob Dobbs: He said it.

[1:34:11] Bob Dobbs: We're into this unchartable situation.

[1:34:13] Bob Dobbs: And he said it,

[1:34:14] Bob Dobbs: so our whole thing with Ion enlivens for me what McLuhan said and is demonstrated in Finnegans Wake.

[1:34:22] Bob Dobbs: So that's why I know McLuhan valuable.

[1:34:26] Bob Dobbs: He says stuff.

[1:34:28] Bob Dobbs: that iON has brought us into.

[1:34:33] Bob Dobbs: What is it?

[1:34:34] Bob Dobbs: The something is uncharted and unchartable.

[1:34:40] Bob Dobbs: I don't know,

[1:34:41] Bob Dobbs: there's two.

[1:34:41] Bob Dobbs: Have you got Laws of Media right there?

[1:34:44] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:34:44] Cameron McEwen: I don't.

[1:34:46] Cameron McEwen: But what you're saying rings true to the book.

[1:34:50] Cameron McEwen: But charting is inherently a Gutenbergian activity,

[1:34:57] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:34:58] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:34:58] Cameron McEwen: the nurses gave up.

[1:34:59] Bob Dobbs: They were sick of charting patients.

[1:35:02] Bob Dobbs: It didn't work anymore.

[1:35:06] Cameron McEwen: Good point.

[1:35:07] Cameron McEwen: Good point.

[1:35:08] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:35:09] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:35:09] Bob Dobbs: chart is such a key word in a lot of corporate life.

[1:35:15] Bob Dobbs: And you know,

[1:35:16] Bob Dobbs: in the beginning of the last book of Finnegans Wake,

[1:35:19] Bob Dobbs: there's a section at the beginning where a hand comes forward and holds up a chart.

[1:35:26] Bob Dobbs: That's what it actually says.

[1:35:29] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:35:29] Bob Dobbs: this glorious hand bursts forth and then a new chart is shown.

[1:35:35] Bob Dobbs: And probably Joyce had his own chart for Finnegans Wake like he did for Ulysses.

[1:35:40] Bob Dobbs: So he's referring to the way he was temporarily organizing his work.

[1:35:46] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[1:35:46] Cameron McEwen: sure.

[1:35:47] Cameron McEwen: So,

[1:35:47] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:35:48] Cameron McEwen: he had lots of charts.

[1:35:50] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:35:50] Cameron McEwen: Did you see,

[1:35:52] Bob Dobbs: did you,

[1:35:53] Bob Dobbs: have you ever seen pictures of his manuscript where he has lines?

[1:35:57] Bob Dobbs: drawn all over the talking about Kenner interconnections his lines drawn all over the place you know connecting the third sentence with the 25th sentence you know it's ridiculous

[1:36:10] Bob Dobbs: Talk about a maelstrom on the page.

[1:36:13] Bob Dobbs: He was trying to trace out the maelstrom.

[1:36:17] Cameron McEwen: No question about it.

[1:36:20] Bob Dobbs: So what were we...

[1:36:22] Bob Dobbs: So in Catholic Humanism,

[1:36:26] Bob Dobbs: we have discovered how to create culture.

[1:36:29] Bob Dobbs: That's what he says.

[1:36:31] Bob Dobbs: We know how to make culture.

[1:36:33] Bob Dobbs: And the medium was the medium,

[1:36:36] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:36:37] Bob Dobbs: the main medium.

[1:36:39] Bob Dobbs: The main medium of society used was the agency for creating a culture.

[1:36:42] Bob Dobbs: So he saw the key.

[1:36:45] Bob Dobbs: But then they sped up into this technology that became autonomous,

[1:36:52] Bob Dobbs: the tech body.

[1:36:53] Bob Dobbs: So what's really funny is that on our show,

[1:36:56] Bob Dobbs: we'll be talking to Ion,

[1:36:57] Bob Dobbs: and all of a sudden,

[1:36:58] Bob Dobbs: Ion's tone will change.

[1:37:02] Bob Dobbs: And people who are regular listeners know what's happening.

[1:37:04] Bob Dobbs: They said,

[1:37:04] Bob Dobbs: wait a minute,

[1:37:05] Bob Dobbs: the tech body's talking now,

[1:37:06] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:37:07] Bob Dobbs: And the tech body sheepishly admits,

[1:37:09] Bob Dobbs: yes,

[1:37:10] Bob Dobbs: yes,

[1:37:10] Bob Dobbs: you've caught us.

[1:37:12] Bob Dobbs: So we tell them,

[1:37:13] Bob Dobbs: get the hell off there,

[1:37:14] Bob Dobbs: get out of ION,

[1:37:15] Bob Dobbs: and we bring ION back.

[1:37:18] Bob Dobbs: Which is unbelievable for,

[1:37:20] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:37:21] Bob Dobbs: the cliche of doing mediumship,

[1:37:24] Bob Dobbs: wherever it's done,

[1:37:25] Bob Dobbs: little corners here and there,

[1:37:26] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if there's many ratios,

[1:37:28] Bob Dobbs: but we are doing,

[1:37:28] Bob Dobbs: quote,

[1:37:29] Bob Dobbs: mediumship there,

[1:37:30] Bob Dobbs: and then we have this battle within the content of the medium.

[1:37:33] Bob Dobbs: That's pretty,

[1:37:34] Bob Dobbs: that's never been known before.

[1:37:37] Bob Dobbs: And so,

[1:37:40] Bob Dobbs: I see McLuhan helps me understand this.

[1:37:43] Bob Dobbs: Pluralizing.

[1:37:45] Bob Dobbs: That's what we got here.

[1:37:46] Bob Dobbs: Pluralizing.

[1:37:49] Cameron McEwen: So,

[1:37:49] Cameron McEwen: I was just looking up the etymology of chart.

[1:37:53] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:37:54] Cameron McEwen: Because I thought that that might be helpful in this context.

[1:37:59] Cameron McEwen: So,

[1:38:00] Cameron McEwen: chart is originally mapped for the use of navigators from the French chart.

[1:38:07] Cameron McEwen: meaning a card,

[1:38:10] Cameron McEwen: which comes from charta in Latin,

[1:38:13] Cameron McEwen: meaning paper or a map.

[1:38:17] Bob Dobbs: What was the last word?

[1:38:18] Bob Dobbs: It came from a knot.

[1:38:19] Bob Dobbs: I didn't get the last one,

[1:38:20] Bob Dobbs: syllable.

[1:38:23] Cameron McEwen: Latin charta,

[1:38:25] Cameron McEwen: meaning paper or a map.

[1:38:30] Bob Dobbs: So that's visual space,

[1:38:31] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:38:32] Bob Dobbs: and the semantics guy,

[1:38:34] Bob Dobbs: what they say.

[1:38:36] Bob Dobbs: General Semantics,

[1:38:37] Bob Dobbs: the map is not the territory,

[1:38:39] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:38:39] Bob Dobbs: that stuff.

[1:38:39] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:38:41] Cameron McEwen: So it's related to the word card.

[1:38:44] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:38:46] Cameron McEwen: It goes back to the word card,

[1:38:48] Cameron McEwen: the playing cards.

[1:38:50] Cameron McEwen: And so...

[1:38:51] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:38:51] Bob Dobbs: the tarot and the Kabbalah stuff.

[1:38:54] Cameron McEwen: I was just going to say the tarot.

[1:38:56] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:39:00] Cameron McEwen: It's related to role playing,

[1:39:03] Cameron McEwen: the person who makes the chart and what is

[1:39:06] Cameron McEwen: charted are both roles.

[1:39:08] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[1:39:09] Bob Dobbs: so you have the I Ching.

[1:39:11] Bob Dobbs: So these are preliterate iconography that was a way of organizing experience before you got into writing.

[1:39:18] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.

[1:39:19] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:39:19] Cameron McEwen: so it's back to the collective unconscious.

[1:39:23] Cameron McEwen: It's back to the social unconscious and to language.

[1:39:30] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:39:30] Bob Dobbs: and they started to need to chart it.

[1:39:35] Bob Dobbs: In a way,

[1:39:36] Bob Dobbs: laws of it,

[1:39:38] Bob Dobbs: cycles,

[1:39:38] Bob Dobbs: patterns of it were repeated.

[1:39:41] Bob Dobbs: So then,

[1:39:41] Bob Dobbs: oh,

[1:39:42] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[1:39:42] Bob Dobbs: we know that pattern,

[1:39:43] Bob Dobbs: so let's make a little picture of that pattern.

[1:39:45] Bob Dobbs: And astrology probably comes out of that,

[1:39:48] Bob Dobbs: and astronomy maybe.

[1:39:51] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:39:51] Cameron McEwen: it could be.

[1:39:52] Cameron McEwen: And you can see that in all of these things that we're talking about is pattern recognition.

[1:40:02] Cameron McEwen: But the...

[1:40:04] Cameron McEwen: The constellations are a pattern.

[1:40:07] Cameron McEwen: The particular tarot card is a pattern.

[1:40:11] Cameron McEwen: But then the constellations move relative to each other.

[1:40:17] Cameron McEwen: And the cards get played in different orders.

[1:40:23] Cameron McEwen: So the gods,

[1:40:27] Bob Dobbs: they hop from one constellation to another.

[1:40:30] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[1:40:31] Cameron McEwen: And so you have pattern recognitions.

[1:40:34] Cameron McEwen: squared.

[1:40:34] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:40:35] Cameron McEwen: And the...

[1:40:37] Bob Dobbs: Now you have the Marconi Galaxy,

[1:40:39] Bob Dobbs: the Gutenberg Galaxy,

[1:40:40] Bob Dobbs: and the Digital Galaxy,

[1:40:41] Bob Dobbs: and Epstein hops from one to another,

[1:40:43] Bob Dobbs: like a modern Stewart Brand god that we saw in the sky.

[1:40:49] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:40:49] Cameron McEwen: so I mean,

[1:40:50] Cameron McEwen: human beings were sort of you could say first dimensional.

[1:40:59] Cameron McEwen: characters.

[1:41:00] Cameron McEwen: History was a question of different constellations,

[1:41:06] Cameron McEwen: different pattern recognitions that supplanted each other over time.

[1:41:14] Cameron McEwen: But now instead of being supplanted by one another over time,

[1:41:20] Cameron McEwen: they've become layered at the same time.

[1:41:24] Cameron McEwen: And the question is,

[1:41:25] Cameron McEwen: can I don't know.

[1:41:27] Cameron McEwen: Is human being possible when the,

[1:41:33] Cameron McEwen: you could say,

[1:41:34] Cameron McEwen: when the dimensionality changes like that?

[1:41:38] Cameron McEwen: And we don't know the answer to that.

[1:41:41] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:41:41] Bob Dobbs: so that's

[1:41:42] Bob Dobbs: iON's main point.

[1:41:45] Bob Dobbs: Today,

[1:41:46] Bob Dobbs: it's going to get so intense that you either commit suicide,

[1:41:50] Bob Dobbs: die,

[1:41:50] Bob Dobbs: or ascend.

[1:41:52] Bob Dobbs: And what ascending is,

[1:41:54] Bob Dobbs: is pretty...

[1:41:55] Bob Dobbs: vague and it's ongoing what the definition of that is but basically iON says the human form is not appropriate anymore so we're we're making a new form somehow and we're not encouraged to to grab onto the tech body and give all your power to the tech body and just become a passive servant

[1:42:15] Bob Dobbs: of all the services that the tech body will give you uh that's not a cool way iON says so iON represents trying to be an anti-environment to Thank you.

[1:42:25] Bob Dobbs: the inevitable consuming of us by the tech body,

[1:42:28] Bob Dobbs: which will be interpreted by many people as a great,

[1:42:30] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:42:30] Bob Dobbs: comfortable paradise.

[1:42:34] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:42:34] Bob Dobbs: it's the,

[1:42:35] Bob Dobbs: what is that,

[1:42:35] Bob Dobbs: Brave New World?

[1:42:36] Bob Dobbs: They were on Soma.

[1:42:38] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:42:38] Bob Dobbs: that's a very primitive image,

[1:42:40] Bob Dobbs: but the passivity that people are being forced into.

[1:42:43] Bob Dobbs: If you get on a guaranteed income and then they just zoom around,

[1:42:48] Bob Dobbs: or

[1:42:49] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if they leave their home,

[1:42:51] Bob Dobbs: but...

[1:42:52] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:42:52] Cameron McEwen: probably not.

[1:42:54] Bob Dobbs: What?

[1:42:55] Cameron McEwen: Probably not.

[1:42:56] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:42:57] Cameron McEwen: Like you were saying before,

[1:42:58] Cameron McEwen: they just sit in the living room.

[1:43:00] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:43:00] Bob Dobbs: they go into their matrix tube.

[1:43:02] Bob Dobbs: So that is,

[1:43:05] Bob Dobbs: Ion is not for that.

[1:43:08] Bob Dobbs: So it's trying to encourage us not to depend too much on technology,

[1:43:12] Bob Dobbs: on the tech body's services and more and more offering.

[1:43:16] Cameron McEwen: So find out for next time what ascending.

[1:43:24] Cameron McEwen: It has to do with

[1:43:25] Cameron McEwen: Heraclitus' The Way Up is the Way Down.

[1:43:29] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:43:29] Bob Dobbs: let me just write that down.

[1:43:31] Bob Dobbs: I have my page with my iON questions.

[1:43:33] Bob Dobbs: So ascension via

[1:43:40] Bob Dobbs: Heraclitus, up and down?

[1:43:44] Bob Dobbs: Is that what you said?

[1:43:45] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:43:45] Cameron McEwen: The Way Up is the Way Down is one of his fragments.

[1:43:49] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[1:43:50] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[1:43:50] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:43:51] Bob Dobbs: Heraclitus is...

[1:43:52] Cameron McEwen: Hold those...

[1:43:53] Cameron McEwen: Katomia Kyoto is the Greek.

[1:43:57] Cameron McEwen: And it's one of the two epigraphs of the wasteland.

[1:44:06] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:44:06] Bob Dobbs: right.

[1:44:07] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:44:07] Bob Dobbs: so I have your ascension via Heraclitus'

[1:44:10] Bob Dobbs: quote,

[1:44:10] Bob Dobbs: the way up is the way down.

[1:44:13] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:44:14] Bob Dobbs: how does iON respond to that?

[1:44:17] Cameron McEwen: It might have to do with your wife because the

[1:44:22] Cameron McEwen: Greek word

[1:44:23] Cameron McEwen: for the way up and the way down is hodos-ano,

[1:44:27] Cameron McEwen: which we have in anode or analysis,

[1:44:32] Cameron McEwen: and the way down is hodos-kato,

[1:44:36] Cameron McEwen: which we have in catalytic or words like that.

[1:44:39] Bob Dobbs: Are you thinking of anode and kato?

[1:44:43] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:44:44] Cameron McEwen: those are words derived from ano and kato in Greek.

[1:44:48] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:44:49] Cameron McEwen: What I'm saying is that those...

[1:44:52] Cameron McEwen: have to do with your products in the sense that they introduce questions of analysis and synthesis.

[1:45:03] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:45:04] Bob Dobbs: And a woman who's very involved in promoting cold fusion,

[1:45:09] Bob Dobbs: I've known her a long time,

[1:45:10] Bob Dobbs: so she dropped back in after almost 10 years of doing her own thing,

[1:45:16] Bob Dobbs: and she asked iON about what's her...

[1:45:20] Bob Dobbs: box of free electricity compared to the Pons and Fleischmann cold fusion so i went into it and so she heard that and then i made a little excerpt and she was Gilson to that and she wrote to me i don't i haven't what is this is i am stumbled anode flips into cathode what the fuck that's

[1:45:42] Cameron McEwen: what she wrote that's right that's pure that's pure heraclitus yeah and and i think uh

[1:45:49] Bob Dobbs: But,

[1:45:49] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:45:50] Bob Dobbs: thanks for showing me that or mentioning that because I can bring it up.

[1:45:53] Bob Dobbs: And then

[1:45:54] Bob Dobbs: iON does retrieve lots of archetypes of knowledge way back there.

[1:46:00] Cameron McEwen: The Eric Voegelin probably gets closer.

[1:46:04] Cameron McEwen: You could say that this is the hidden impulse of Western civilization,

[1:46:13] Cameron McEwen: because when

[1:46:16] Cameron McEwen: Plato is thinking about forms,

[1:46:22] Cameron McEwen: the cartoon of Plato is that he's talking about something abstract in the air,

[1:46:27] Cameron McEwen: in the clouds.

[1:46:29] Cameron McEwen: as Aristophanes said.

[1:46:32] Cameron McEwen: But what

[1:46:34] Cameron McEwen: Plato tried to describe and what

[1:46:38] Cameron McEwen: Aristotle did describe is that the forms are dynamic.

[1:46:44] Cameron McEwen: And what does dynamic mean?

[1:46:46] Cameron McEwen: It means that they are expressive,

[1:46:49] Cameron McEwen: that they reach out from themselves,

[1:46:52] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:46:52] Cameron McEwen: So this is like McLuhan talking about extensions.

[1:47:01] Cameron McEwen: The sort of the hidden spur of

[1:47:06] Cameron McEwen: Western civilization is the notion of dynamic,

[1:47:10] Cameron McEwen: the notion of the forms of things are inherently expressive,

[1:47:19] Cameron McEwen: inherently extending themselves.

[1:47:23] Bob Dobbs: Is that the word entelechies?

[1:47:24] Bob Dobbs: The entelechy of something?

[1:47:29] Bob Dobbs: No.

[1:47:30] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:47:31] Cameron McEwen: it's the telos is the end.

[1:47:40] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:47:40] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[1:47:41] Cameron McEwen: So the entelechy is the reaching out of something towards its end.

[1:47:51] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:47:52] Cameron McEwen: You're right that it's certainly related to this,

[1:47:55] Cameron McEwen: but the...

[1:47:58] Cameron McEwen: The dynamic is,

[1:48:00] Cameron McEwen: you could say,

[1:48:00] Cameron McEwen: is more basic than that.

[1:48:06] Cameron McEwen: It's a reaching out that belongs to the form.

[1:48:12] Cameron McEwen: So if you think just about chemistry for a minute,

[1:48:15] Cameron McEwen: carbon as an element is a form that has its own laws and has its own place at the periodic table.

[1:48:26] Cameron McEwen: But it's also stuff,

[1:48:29] Cameron McEwen: and it belongs to the chemical element carbon to reach out of itself to be graphite or a diamond or any

[1:48:43] Cameron McEwen: one of the proteins that are involved in human beings.

[1:48:48] Cameron McEwen: So this dynamic that exists,

[1:48:52] Cameron McEwen: when Heraclitus says the way up is the way down.

[1:48:56] Cameron McEwen: He's saying that there's a dynamic to things which is always there.

[1:49:02] Cameron McEwen: And so then

[1:49:03] Cameron McEwen: Plato and Aristotle are thinking about that dynamic and thinking about that dynamic and realizing the potentials that are involved in dynamicism then sort of generates all

[1:49:21] Cameron McEwen: of Western civilization.

[1:49:23] Cameron McEwen: That's what we've been living through for.

[1:49:25] Cameron McEwen: 2,500 years.

[1:49:26] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:49:27] Bob Dobbs: And you mentioned pulse in there.

[1:49:29] Bob Dobbs: Remember on page 115,

[1:49:32] Bob Dobbs: electronic pulse grabber was a phrase I put in there.

[1:49:37] Bob Dobbs: I don't know where I got it from.

[1:49:38] Bob Dobbs: But what do you call that process?

[1:49:42] Bob Dobbs: If you take your hands,

[1:49:43] Bob Dobbs: you start flowing your hands around each other.

[1:49:47] Bob Dobbs: What is that xylophonic,

[1:49:49] Bob Dobbs: what is that word?

[1:49:52] Bob Dobbs: that I'm saying that you're showing.

[1:49:54] Bob Dobbs: Your dynamic image is the,

[1:49:57] Bob Dobbs: it's not a xylophone,

[1:49:58] Bob Dobbs: but it's close to that.

[1:50:00] Bob Dobbs: It's a spiraling in on itself.

[1:50:04] Bob Dobbs: It's a,

[1:50:06] Bob Dobbs: that's a term.

[1:50:07] Bob Dobbs: You can't think of it.

[1:50:09] Cameron McEwen: Cyclonic?

[1:50:11] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:50:11] Bob Dobbs: not cyclonic.

[1:50:17] Bob Dobbs: I'm just going to try approximation.

[1:50:22] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:50:22] Bob Dobbs: um...

[1:50:25] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:50:25] Cameron McEwen: if you look up synonyms...

[1:50:27] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:50:34] Bob Dobbs: no,

[1:50:34] Bob Dobbs: that didn't work.

[1:50:40] Bob Dobbs: It's a word I use all the time.

[1:50:43] Bob Dobbs: I just can't get it.

[1:50:45] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:50:45] Bob Dobbs: it's a geometric shape that's turning in on itself.

[1:50:51] Bob Dobbs: I keep thinking it begins with the letter X.

[1:50:55] Bob Dobbs: Or Zed.

[1:51:00] Bob Dobbs: Nope,

[1:51:00] Bob Dobbs: they ain't there.

[1:51:06] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:51:07] Bob Dobbs: I think we'll end with that impasse.

[1:51:09] Cameron McEwen: Uh-huh,

[1:51:10] Cameron McEwen: okay.

[1:51:11] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:51:11] Cameron McEwen: we can think about that word for next time.

[1:51:13] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:51:15] Bob Dobbs: It'll suddenly come to me or you.

[1:51:17] Cameron McEwen: There is,

[1:51:19] Cameron McEwen: isn't there a word that starts with

[1:51:23] Cameron McEwen: Zed Y?

[1:51:25] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:51:25] Bob Dobbs: that's what I thought.

[1:51:26] Bob Dobbs: I did XY,

[1:51:28] Bob Dobbs: ZY,

[1:51:28] Bob Dobbs: xylogram or something,

[1:51:31] Bob Dobbs: zoetrope.

[1:51:33] Bob Dobbs: It's a term we all know,

[1:51:40] Bob Dobbs: but can't get it right now.

[1:51:42] Bob Dobbs: So it's about time we hit the wall.

[1:51:47] Bob Dobbs: We're speeding along too fast there.

[1:51:50] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:51:50] Cameron McEwen: but that was good.

[1:51:53] Cameron McEwen: I enjoyed a lot of what you had to say,

[1:51:55] Cameron McEwen: so thank you.

[1:51:56] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:51:56] Bob Dobbs: no,

[1:51:56] Bob Dobbs: that was great.

[1:51:57] Bob Dobbs: And thanks for responding.

[1:51:59] Bob Dobbs: So we certainly came up with a whole interesting dissertation on Epstein.

[1:52:06] Bob Dobbs: That was new.

[1:52:07] Cameron McEwen: Yes,

[1:52:08] Cameron McEwen: sir.

[1:52:09] Cameron McEwen: Epstein is one of those crazy machines that Hugh Kenner was describing.

[1:52:17] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:52:17] Bob Dobbs: that's the interconnecting of what we do,

[1:52:20] Bob Dobbs: what we live.

[1:52:21] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:52:23] Bob Dobbs: Thank you very much,

[1:52:23] Bob Dobbs: and we'll talk soon.

[1:52:25] Cameron McEwen: Okay,

[1:52:26] Cameron McEwen: Bob.

[1:52:26] Cameron McEwen: Thanks.

[1:52:26] Cameron McEwen: Bye-bye.

[1:52:27] Bob Dobbs: Bye,

[1:52:27] Bob Dobbs: Ewen Cameron.