Dialogue 59 — Transcript

[00:02] Bob Dobbs: Hello,

[00:02] Bob Dobbs: and welcome to

[00:05] Bob Dobbs: Cameron McEwen and Bob Dobbs discussing,

[00:09] Bob Dobbs: explaining,

[00:10] Bob Dobbs: discovering what's in my book on Trump and the tech body.

[00:14] Bob Dobbs: And this is episode number 59,

[00:18] Bob Dobbs: and it's being recorded on October 27th,

[00:20] Bob Dobbs: 2022.

[00:22] Bob Dobbs: And if you have the article,

[00:26] Bob Dobbs: we are at the top of page 123.

[00:28] Bob Dobbs: But I was talking to Cameron.

[00:31] Bob Dobbs: before we started recording,

[00:32] Bob Dobbs: and he started saying some interesting stuff that I thought you should hear about today,

[00:39] Bob Dobbs: Take Today.

[00:40] Bob Dobbs: So,

[00:40] Bob Dobbs: Cameron,

[00:41] Bob Dobbs: can you retrieve the leap you were making,

[00:44] Bob Dobbs: the runoff,

[00:47] Bob Dobbs: the dash from the starting blocks?

[00:49] Bob Dobbs: What was it?

[00:51] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[00:51] Cameron McEwen: so

[00:52] Cameron McEwen: I was saying that what I'm trying to do these days,

[00:58] Cameron McEwen: mostly in...

[01:01] Cameron McEwen: sort of background mode,

[01:03] Cameron McEwen: because I haven't reached the point of actually trying to draft it yet.

[01:08] Cameron McEwen: And I'm trying to summarize in very short form the difference between what

[01:16] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan was proposing and what we are doing in the academy and in the world at large these days.

[01:25] Cameron McEwen: And the basic contrast I want to make out is that for McLuhan,

[01:32] Cameron McEwen: What he sometimes called the possibility of survival depended upon us emerging into a world where not only physical nature,

[01:47] Cameron McEwen: but also psychological nature would be subject to common study.

[01:57] Cameron McEwen: And for McLuhan,

[01:58] Cameron McEwen: this was the...

[02:00] Cameron McEwen: implicated the possibility of peace,

[02:03] Cameron McEwen: P-E-A-C-E,

[02:07] Cameron McEwen: which of course is a tremendous need at the moment when the chances are all too good that we may start blowing ourselves up soon.

[02:21] Cameron McEwen: So that's,

[02:22] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[02:23] Cameron McEwen: that's sort of my,

[02:24] Cameron McEwen: it's always been my general focus,

[02:29] Cameron McEwen: but

[02:30] Cameron McEwen: now

[02:31] Cameron McEwen: I'm trying to sort of hone in on.

[02:37] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[02:39] Bob Dobbs: what's interesting is

[02:43] Bob Dobbs: iON said a couple of years ago,

[02:46] Bob Dobbs: I said,

[02:47] Bob Dobbs: what will happen in the world if we,

[02:50] Bob Dobbs: and when,

[02:52] Bob Dobbs: we get our box with endless electricity,

[02:56] Bob Dobbs: start to implement that?

[02:59] Bob Dobbs: a pretty big way.

[03:00] Bob Dobbs: What would happen in the world?

[03:02] Bob Dobbs: What would be its effect?

[03:04] Bob Dobbs: And

[03:04] Bob Dobbs: iON said it would start World War III.

[03:07] Bob Dobbs: So in February 2022,

[03:13] Bob Dobbs: we established a place with lots of support by elites around the world to set up the box so when the grid collapsed,

[03:27] Bob Dobbs: We'd be able to rebuild the grid or keep it going,

[03:32] Bob Dobbs: but under a new energy source.

[03:34] Bob Dobbs: And so that started in February.

[03:38] Bob Dobbs: And what happened on February

[03:40] Bob Dobbs: 24th? World War III started,

[03:42] Bob Dobbs: according to iON,

[03:43] Bob Dobbs: even.

[03:44] Bob Dobbs: So the prediction from a couple of years ago came true.

[03:48] Bob Dobbs: So we're in the middle of something.

[03:51] Bob Dobbs: Me,

[03:51] Bob Dobbs: Carolyn,

[03:52] Bob Dobbs: and JW,

[03:52] Bob Dobbs: and iON are at the heart of what's going on in the world.

[03:56] Bob Dobbs: We have a lot of...

[03:58] Bob Dobbs: Access to information that people aren't privy to.

[04:03] Bob Dobbs: And just this week,

[04:06] Bob Dobbs: there are extraordinary meetings going on with us and certain people,

[04:12] Bob Dobbs: very well-known people,

[04:14] Bob Dobbs: who are very concerned,

[04:15] Bob Dobbs: like you,

[04:16] Bob Dobbs: Cameron,

[04:16] Bob Dobbs: that we have fucked,

[04:17] Bob Dobbs: what is it,

[04:18] Bob Dobbs: cooked our pooch,

[04:19] Bob Dobbs: pooched our butt?

[04:21] Bob Dobbs: We're on a collision course with a bad scene.

[04:26] Bob Dobbs: So there is a lot of concern,

[04:29] Bob Dobbs: and so we're right in the middle of it.

[04:31] Bob Dobbs: So I certainly,

[04:33] Bob Dobbs: when I'm called on to say a few words,

[04:36] Bob Dobbs: help me out,

[04:36] Bob Dobbs: Cabot.

[04:38] Bob Dobbs: Let's pretend you're there.

[04:40] Bob Dobbs: What would you say to people?

[04:42] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[04:42] Bob Dobbs: we've had this discussion a few times where I say,

[04:45] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[04:45] Bob Dobbs: the White House invites you in.

[04:47] Bob Dobbs: What would you do?

[04:47] Bob Dobbs: What would you say?

[04:48] Bob Dobbs: And you've talked about it.

[04:51] Bob Dobbs: But that's a year ago we started getting into that kind of stuff,

[04:55] Bob Dobbs: I think.

[04:56] Bob Dobbs: It's a lot more extreme or intense and desperate right now.

[05:01] Bob Dobbs: So your sense of urgency has been caught up to.

[05:10] Bob Dobbs: Everybody agrees,

[05:11] Bob Dobbs: Cameron.

[05:11] Bob Dobbs: We've got an urgent situation.

[05:14] Bob Dobbs: So what do you say?

[05:16] Bob Dobbs: What do you say that the new books,

[05:18] Bob Dobbs: there's lots of books on McLuhan coming out all the time now.

[05:22] Bob Dobbs: It's an industry like the Joyce industry,

[05:24] Bob Dobbs: right?

[05:25] Cameron McEwen: Yep.

[05:25] Bob Dobbs: There's always some academic who's doing something.

[05:28] Bob Dobbs: And you're very dissatisfied with what you see.

[05:31] Bob Dobbs: As a matter of fact,

[05:31] Bob Dobbs: you don't even look anymore.

[05:33] Bob Dobbs: You know they're not going to be useful.

[05:35] Bob Dobbs: So what is your point that's different from them,

[05:41] Bob Dobbs: other than saying they're Gutenbergian and you're not?

[05:46] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[05:46] Cameron McEwen: so I don't see any point in engaging in that question,

[05:52] Cameron McEwen: just as I don't think there's anything that could be said to...

[05:58] Cameron McEwen: President Biden,

[05:59] Cameron McEwen: for example,

[06:00] Cameron McEwen: in the White House,

[06:01] Cameron McEwen: there's nothing,

[06:03] Cameron McEwen: there's no message that can be given to people if they don't understand the medium of the message.

[06:12] Cameron McEwen: The heart of McLuhan is the interplay between medium and message.

[06:19] Cameron McEwen: And in order to have a message of peace,

[06:25] Cameron McEwen: a message of that...

[06:29] Cameron McEwen: would go towards inhibiting the collapse of civilization.

[06:36] Cameron McEwen: The great need is for the institution of medium.

[06:41] Cameron McEwen: But as McLuhan was well aware,

[06:46] Cameron McEwen: the problem of trying to communicate about the medium is that it then becomes message.

[06:54] Bob Dobbs: And that's a problem if it becomes message.

[06:57] Bob Dobbs: Is that what you're saying?

[06:58] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[06:59] Cameron McEwen: So in Gutenberg,

[07:03] Cameron McEwen: in the Gutenberg Galaxy,

[07:06] Cameron McEwen: around page 30,

[07:09] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan quotes

[07:13] Cameron McEwen: Humboldt, the

[07:16] Bob Dobbs: German 19th century educator.

[07:19] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[07:20] Cameron McEwen: But a man of many different interests and expertise.

[07:26] Cameron McEwen: expertise.

[07:28] Cameron McEwen: But he was especially interested in language.

[07:31] Cameron McEwen: And

[07:31] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan quotes him as talking about language as a magic circle.

[07:39] Cameron McEwen: In the quotation that's in the Gutenberg Galaxy,

[07:43] Cameron McEwen: he talks about the magic circle of language,

[07:48] Cameron McEwen: which if we understand it,

[07:50] Cameron McEwen: puts us into a new magic circle.

[07:54] Cameron McEwen: And there's Thank you.

[07:56] Cameron McEwen: And the quote,

[07:57] Cameron McEwen: Humboldt says,

[07:57] Cameron McEwen: there's no escape from this.

[07:59] Cameron McEwen: So human beings are always involved in some,

[08:03] Cameron McEwen: quote unquote,

[08:04] Cameron McEwen: magic circle,

[08:06] Cameron McEwen: and they're unable to get out of it,

[08:07] Cameron McEwen: except by getting into a new magic circle.

[08:10] Cameron McEwen: So

[08:12] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan is well aware of this,

[08:13] Cameron McEwen: and it can be said to be the problem that the mariner encounters in the maelstrom.

[08:24] Cameron McEwen: Because the maelstrom is a whole bunch of circles as a vortex,

[08:31] Cameron McEwen: and it's not possible to get out of one of the magic circles of the vortex without going into another one.

[08:42] Cameron McEwen: So the whole question is,

[08:44] Cameron McEwen: well,

[08:45] Cameron McEwen: if you're in the magic circle and cannot get out of it except by going into another one,

[08:53] Cameron McEwen: How do you get back up to the surface?

[08:57] Cameron McEwen: So

[08:57] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan's thought is kind of generated out of this problem.

[09:02] Cameron McEwen: And his answer to it is that we need to have a science of magic circles.

[09:16] Cameron McEwen: So if every possible message is seen against...

[09:23] Cameron McEwen: the medium of some magic circle that makes sense of it.

[09:29] Cameron McEwen: And if we put together all the different magic circles,

[09:32] Cameron McEwen: then we have a science that's very like the science of chemistry or the science of physics,

[09:40] Cameron McEwen: except that now we have a science of human experience,

[09:45] Cameron McEwen: namely of everything that can be said or experienced or perceived or felt against the background.

[09:52] Cameron McEwen: of

[09:54] Cameron McEwen: the range of possible magic circles.

[09:57] Cameron McEwen: So that medium,

[10:02] Cameron McEwen: that science of media,

[10:04] Cameron McEwen: was McLuhan's suggestion for how it's possible in a global village or global theater to establish peace between...

[10:25] Cameron McEwen: between nuclear armed antagonistic forces.

[10:31] Cameron McEwen: So what I have tried to do now for many years at the blog and for years before that in other blogs,

[10:42] Cameron McEwen: I've tried to establish the possibility of this science that McLuhan was talking about,

[10:50] Cameron McEwen: but it has not been understood because...

[10:55] Cameron McEwen: in my view at least,

[10:56] Cameron McEwen: people are unwilling to submit themselves to the vortex or maelstrom of the infinite regress,

[11:09] Cameron McEwen: of the fact that humans can never get out of magic circles,

[11:15] Cameron McEwen: but if they allow themselves to be...

[11:24] Cameron McEwen: submitted to the range of magic circles,

[11:30] Cameron McEwen: what McLuhan called the critical stance,

[11:34] Cameron McEwen: then it's possible for humans to move from the stable point of view of the Gutenberg Galaxy to

[11:49] Cameron McEwen: the multiple,

[11:51] Cameron McEwen: and not point of view,

[11:52] Cameron McEwen: the multiple.

[11:56] Cameron McEwen: dynamic range of all possible points of view.

[12:02] Cameron McEwen: And in fact,

[12:02] Cameron McEwen: that relates to your book because we're coming up to related points in your book right away on 123.

[12:11] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[12:12] Bob Dobbs: What people often,

[12:13] Bob Dobbs: if they would listen to you,

[12:15] Bob Dobbs: they heard what you said,

[12:16] Bob Dobbs: they might,

[12:17] Bob Dobbs: and they didn't know McLuhan,

[12:18] Bob Dobbs: they'd say,

[12:19] Bob Dobbs: are you talking about,

[12:20] Bob Dobbs: we need to understand the context?

[12:23] Bob Dobbs: How's that word?

[12:24] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[12:25] Bob Dobbs: You would accept that word for medium?

[12:28] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[12:29] Cameron McEwen: sure.

[12:30] Cameron McEwen: So,

[12:30] Cameron McEwen: for example,

[12:31] Cameron McEwen: when McLuhan talks about the medium is the message,

[12:34] Cameron McEwen: and he says,

[12:36] Cameron McEwen: so what's the message of cars,

[12:40] Cameron McEwen: right?

[12:40] Cameron McEwen: So the message of cars is roads,

[12:43] Cameron McEwen: hotels,

[12:44] Cameron McEwen: restaurants,

[12:46] Cameron McEwen: refineries,

[12:47] Cameron McEwen: oil exploration,

[12:49] Cameron McEwen: wars that are...

[12:53] Cameron McEwen: about who owns the oil and who owns the oil routes and who builds the pipelines,

[13:01] Cameron McEwen: et cetera,

[13:02] Cameron McEwen: That's the context of cars.

[13:05] Cameron McEwen: And so a medium for McLuhan is an environment or a context.

[13:12] Cameron McEwen: And once that's said,

[13:18] Cameron McEwen: you could say,

[13:18] Cameron McEwen: well,

[13:18] Cameron McEwen: that context of cars

[13:22] Cameron McEwen: is kind of a magic circle,

[13:24] Cameron McEwen: because if we say,

[13:26] Cameron McEwen: well,

[13:28] Cameron McEwen: how do we characterize that context of cars,

[13:34] Cameron McEwen: then suddenly that large context has become a message.

[13:39] Cameron McEwen: And in order to understand that message,

[13:41] Cameron McEwen: we would have to understand its medium.

[13:45] Cameron McEwen: And this problem of ground become figure.

[13:51] Cameron McEwen: or medium become message,

[13:54] Cameron McEwen: generates an infinite regress.

[13:56] Cameron McEwen: But that infinite regress,

[13:58] Cameron McEwen: which nobody wants to get into because they fear the loss of their orientation,

[14:04] Cameron McEwen: they fear the loss of themselves,

[14:08] Cameron McEwen: that's the only way out of the maelstrom.

[14:13] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[14:14] Bob Dobbs: is the magical circle,

[14:16] Bob Dobbs: the magic circle,

[14:16] Bob Dobbs: is that what you hear in cult talk?

[14:21] Cameron McEwen: No,

[14:21] Cameron McEwen: a magical circle,

[14:23] Cameron McEwen: as meant by

[14:25] Cameron McEwen: Humboldt, for example,

[14:27] Cameron McEwen: and as quoted by McLuhan,

[14:29] Cameron McEwen: simply means a circle that has no exit.

[14:36] Cameron McEwen: It defeats,

[14:37] Cameron McEwen: you could say it magically defeats any attempt to extricate oneself from it.

[14:44] Bob Dobbs: Was that the situation with spoken language at the beginning?

[14:51] Bob Dobbs: If there was a beginning...

[14:56] Bob Dobbs: Did we get ourselves out of the vortex of spoken language,

[15:00] Bob Dobbs: the context of it?

[15:02] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[15:04] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan took different views on that sort of question.

[15:11] Cameron McEwen: Sometimes he said that language was a medium within a previous medium,

[15:23] Cameron McEwen: namely

[15:24] Cameron McEwen: thought.

[15:26] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[15:27] Cameron McEwen: and gesture.

[15:29] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[15:29] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[15:30] Cameron McEwen: gesture is another thing.

[15:31] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[15:34] Cameron McEwen: gesture is already a language,

[15:36] Cameron McEwen: right?

[15:37] Cameron McEwen: And so is thought,

[15:39] Cameron McEwen: I think.

[15:40] Cameron McEwen: So human beings do exist from the...

[15:50] Cameron McEwen: from the very beginning,

[15:52] Cameron McEwen: whenever that was and however it took place,

[15:55] Cameron McEwen: there was already a kind of magic circle for humans in that the gap between people that gets crossed in communication is

[16:12] Cameron McEwen: a kind of magic circle.

[16:15] Cameron McEwen: And that magic circle both holds humans

[16:20] Cameron McEwen: into a singular kind of language,

[16:24] Cameron McEwen: singular kind of culture,

[16:26] Cameron McEwen: but also opens them.

[16:29] Cameron McEwen: If humans aren't open to something other through what McLuhan called making as opposed to merging or matching,

[16:41] Cameron McEwen: if humans weren't open to the other through a gap,

[16:49] Cameron McEwen: through tactility,

[16:50] Cameron McEwen: as you would say,

[16:52] Cameron McEwen: then there would be no language.

[16:55] Cameron McEwen: A baby cannot base its language learning on some previous understanding.

[17:04] Cameron McEwen: There is no previous understanding.

[17:06] Cameron McEwen: So the possibility of language exists prior to humans.

[17:14] Cameron McEwen: It exists prior to the exercise of language.

[17:18] Cameron McEwen: And that,

[17:19] Cameron McEwen: you could say,

[17:19] Cameron McEwen: is the most basic magic circle of humans.

[17:24] Cameron McEwen: But in a world where the possibility of peace has been lost,

[17:32] Cameron McEwen: that prior magic circle in which all humans exist always has been lost.

[17:40] Cameron McEwen: And the great question is,

[17:42] Cameron McEwen: how can that be reestablished?

[17:45] Cameron McEwen: And McLuhan's answer to that is,

[17:47] Cameron McEwen: can only be re-established through something like science,

[17:54] Cameron McEwen: the classroom without walls.

[17:56] Bob Dobbs: Great.

[17:57] Bob Dobbs: So what is the context today?

[18:01] Cameron McEwen: Context today is that although we have the tools of electric technology,

[18:08] Cameron McEwen: especially nuclear armaments,

[18:12] Cameron McEwen: we continue to think within the Gutenberg Galaxy.

[18:16] Cameron McEwen: And that's a formula for disaster.

[18:19] Cameron McEwen: So what we need is for thought to emerge out of the Gutenberg Galaxy into the

[18:25] Cameron McEwen: Marconi Galaxy or era.

[18:28] Cameron McEwen: And if that is done,

[18:32] Cameron McEwen: then and only then can the problem of these nuclear weapons and the sort of mutual antagonism of the great nations.

[18:46] Cameron McEwen: be addressed.

[18:55] Cameron McEwen: So that's why there's,

[18:57] Cameron McEwen: you can't go into Biden's office or Putin's office and say,

[19:01] Cameron McEwen: here's what you should do,

[19:02] Cameron McEwen: because that's a message where the medium is missing.

[19:08] Cameron McEwen: And the whole point of science is only the supply messages.

[19:14] Cameron McEwen: that have a known medium.

[19:16] Cameron McEwen: So if you think in chemistry,

[19:17] Cameron McEwen: for example,

[19:18] Cameron McEwen: somebody comes along and they say,

[19:21] Cameron McEwen: here is some material that has great promise to be used in computers,

[19:29] Cameron McEwen: or especially these days in quantum computers,

[19:33] Cameron McEwen: because it has some new form of conductivity,

[19:37] Cameron McEwen: let's say.

[19:38] Cameron McEwen: And the guy says,

[19:40] Cameron McEwen: okay,

[19:40] Cameron McEwen: great,

[19:41] Cameron McEwen: that's super.

[19:42] Cameron McEwen: I'll look into the material.

[19:44] Cameron McEwen: What is its formula?

[19:46] Cameron McEwen: And then the guy says,

[19:48] Cameron McEwen: oh,

[19:48] Cameron McEwen: it's

[19:49] Cameron McEwen: SU403P2 or something.

[19:53] Cameron McEwen: And once the formula is stated,

[19:56] Cameron McEwen: then research can go on because the medium has been made clear.

[20:01] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[20:01] Cameron McEwen: that's the same thing with messages that human beings give to each other.

[20:06] Cameron McEwen: Unless the medium of their messages is clarified,

[20:11] Cameron McEwen: then the messages cannot actually be understood.

[20:15] Cameron McEwen: And where messages are not understood,

[20:18] Cameron McEwen: you are in a world of potential war.

[20:22] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[20:23] Bob Dobbs: now

[20:23] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan shows in history that every technology created a war.

[20:29] Bob Dobbs: It never...

[20:30] Bob Dobbs: was avoided.

[20:31] Bob Dobbs: So our context,

[20:33] Bob Dobbs: our technological media today,

[20:35] Bob Dobbs: which I call the tech body,

[20:37] Bob Dobbs: will cause a war.

[20:39] Cameron McEwen: It is causing a war right now.

[20:41] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[20:42] Cameron McEwen: And in fact,

[20:44] Cameron McEwen: it's not right to say a war as if what's going on in Ukraine is unique.

[20:50] Cameron McEwen: There's all sorts of wars going on.

[20:53] Cameron McEwen: Ukraine just happens to be the one that the mainstream media are harping on.

[20:59] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[20:59] Bob Dobbs: I was going to say that,

[21:00] Bob Dobbs: that there's many wars.

[21:03] Bob Dobbs: So they usually take out a lot of people.

[21:11] Bob Dobbs: And we're in these wars and people are dying.

[21:16] Bob Dobbs: And no solution.

[21:18] Bob Dobbs: What is it,

[21:19] Bob Dobbs: 1942 of World War II?

[21:21] Bob Dobbs: That was a dark year.

[21:25] Bob Dobbs: We're in that dark year,

[21:26] Bob Dobbs: 2022.

[21:28] Bob Dobbs: You're prepared to accept the violent,

[21:34] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[21:34] Bob Dobbs: outcomes of wars.

[21:36] Bob Dobbs: You see that that's not going to be stopped.

[21:40] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[21:41] Cameron McEwen: But there's a difference between acceptance and acceptance.

[21:46] Cameron McEwen: I think what you mean is

[21:49] Cameron McEwen: I can foresee it,

[21:50] Cameron McEwen: and,

[21:52] Cameron McEwen: of course,

[21:53] Cameron McEwen: I dread it,

[21:54] Cameron McEwen: but I would like to explain it.

[21:58] Cameron McEwen: explore at least one possible way of extrication.

[22:09] Cameron McEwen: Certainly,

[22:09] Cameron McEwen: I don't accept it as something that is in any way good or even that is in any way inevitable.

[22:18] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[22:18] Bob Dobbs: what is that way of extrication that you're suggesting?

[22:21] Cameron McEwen: As I just said,

[22:21] Cameron McEwen: it is a recontextualization.

[22:28] Cameron McEwen: of human messaging within a science of media.

[22:35] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[22:35] Bob Dobbs: but it looks like the message about that situation is the activation of nuclear attacks.

[22:49] Bob Dobbs: We can't get past that stage of apprehension.

[22:52] Bob Dobbs: That has to happen before people sort of have a sense of...

[22:59] Bob Dobbs: Getting out of the magic circle.

[23:02] Cameron McEwen: I don't believe that.

[23:04] Cameron McEwen: To me,

[23:05] Cameron McEwen: that smells of Gutenberg because it's what somebody like the Marx and lots of other people proposed going back to the Gnostics

[23:20] Cameron McEwen: 2,000 years ago.

[23:23] Cameron McEwen: The idea there is that...

[23:29] Cameron McEwen: You go along in some sort of linear process,

[23:32] Cameron McEwen: and then there's a revolution,

[23:35] Cameron McEwen: and then the revolution establishes something new.

[23:41] Cameron McEwen: That's a,

[23:41] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[23:42] Cameron McEwen: an old pattern,

[23:44] Cameron McEwen: but

[23:47] Cameron McEwen: I don't think that's in any way an extrication from where we're at.

[23:54] Cameron McEwen: It's a multiplication of what we're at.

[23:57] Cameron McEwen: ISIS.

[23:58] Cameron McEwen: believes in that.

[23:59] Cameron McEwen: The United States believes in that in the sense that the idea is that if we have enough wars going on so that the rules-based

[24:15] Cameron McEwen: order is imposed on the world,

[24:17] Cameron McEwen: then everything comes right.

[24:20] Cameron McEwen: So that pattern of war leading to

[24:27] Cameron McEwen: piece is a very old one and it's not one that I think is any good.

[24:34] Bob Dobbs: So you're asking for a communication and it wouldn't be done by a human at a press conference so I'm saying that the nuclear war is the communication.

[24:48] Cameron McEwen: I understand what you're saying.

[24:50] Cameron McEwen: I take issue with it but the great danger is

[24:57] Cameron McEwen: that we do have some big war and that...

[25:03] Cameron McEwen: It turns out not to be a mode of communication,

[25:06] Cameron McEwen: but a mode of extinction.

[25:09] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[25:10] Bob Dobbs: So

[25:11] Bob Dobbs: I don't see what you're proposing.

[25:15] Bob Dobbs: You probably would say you're not proposing anything.

[25:18] Bob Dobbs: You're just speaking.

[25:20] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[25:22] Cameron McEwen: I'm trying to explicate a possibility that McLuhan foresaw.

[25:29] Cameron McEwen: and um

[25:30] Cameron McEwen: I think it's a very interesting suggestion,

[25:35] Cameron McEwen: but obviously it's very,

[25:37] Cameron McEwen: very difficult for people to understand and especially to put into practical application since,

[25:48] Cameron McEwen: as I try to show at my McLuhan blog,

[25:53] Cameron McEwen: what McLuhan was proposing and what I'm trying to explicate in McLuhan was known to the Egyptians.

[26:00] Cameron McEwen: was conceptualized by Plato and Aristotle.

[26:04] Cameron McEwen: And for these

[26:06] Cameron McEwen: 5,000 years for which we have written texts,

[26:14] Cameron McEwen: nobody has been able to understand the proposal.

[26:18] Cameron McEwen: So

[26:20] Cameron McEwen: I don't say that trying to communicate this is in any way easy.

[26:29] Cameron McEwen: the whole motor of

[26:31] Cameron McEwen: Western civilization has been not to understand this.

[26:39] Cameron McEwen: And

[26:40] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan was quite clear on this,

[26:44] Cameron McEwen: that in the radical dissociation of ear and eye,

[26:54] Cameron McEwen: which according to him takes place...

[26:58] Cameron McEwen: in

[26:58] Cameron McEwen: Greece around 400 BC,

[27:05] Cameron McEwen: Western civilization is built on that dissociation.

[27:11] Cameron McEwen: So the usual reading of McLuhan these days is that what we need to do is go back behind that dissociation

[27:24] Cameron McEwen: to a new orality.

[27:27] Cameron McEwen: And the new orality of the global village is then supposedly some kind of great peace.

[27:35] Cameron McEwen: But McLuhan explicitly criticized that in many ways.

[27:41] Cameron McEwen: For example,

[27:42] Cameron McEwen: he often said that the object of his work was to find a way to protect the virtues of the

[27:51] Cameron McEwen: Gutenberg Galaxy against the electronic onslaught.

[27:56] Cameron McEwen: So what happens through the Gutenberg Galaxy is the development of individual identity,

[28:03] Cameron McEwen: human rights,

[28:04] Cameron McEwen: law,

[28:05] Cameron McEwen: science,

[28:07] Cameron McEwen: all of which McLuhan saw as very,

[28:09] Cameron McEwen: very good.

[28:11] Cameron McEwen: But the problem that goes along with all of those sort of things is that their medium,

[28:18] Cameron McEwen: namely the Gutenberg Galaxy,

[28:21] Cameron McEwen: is inherently antagonistic.

[28:24] Cameron McEwen: And so now...

[28:26] Cameron McEwen: When with the electric environment,

[28:31] Cameron McEwen: we have the possibility of something of a medium that is not antagonistic,

[28:38] Cameron McEwen: but the danger is that it swamps the virtues of the antagonistic environment.

[28:44] Cameron McEwen: So

[28:45] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan's problem is,

[28:46] Cameron McEwen: how do we preserve the good things of the Gutenberg Galaxy within the new medium?

[28:56] Cameron McEwen: That's a very interesting question.

[28:57] Cameron McEwen: And according to him,

[28:59] Cameron McEwen: that question can generate the possibility of practical peace,

[29:11] Cameron McEwen: which is what we need.

[29:13] Bob Dobbs: Back there five minutes ago,

[29:14] Bob Dobbs: did you say extricate,

[29:16] Bob Dobbs: T-R,

[29:17] Bob Dobbs: or explicate,

[29:19] Bob Dobbs: P-L-I?

[29:21] Cameron McEwen: No,

[29:21] Cameron McEwen: I said extricate with T.

[29:24] Bob Dobbs: T-R.

[29:25] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[29:26] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[29:28] Cameron McEwen: A low explicate is also good.

[29:31] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[29:31] Bob Dobbs: so you say some words and say,

[29:33] Bob Dobbs: yes,

[29:33] Bob Dobbs: something is needed.

[29:35] Bob Dobbs: But I'm not getting how that's communicated,

[29:38] Bob Dobbs: what is needed.

[29:40] Cameron McEwen: But,

[29:40] Cameron McEwen: Bob,

[29:41] Cameron McEwen: my whole point is that the communication of a medium in and through which peace is possible.

[29:55] Cameron McEwen: has been known to humans probably forever.

[29:58] Cameron McEwen: But when humans begin to write 5,000 years ago,

[30:02] Cameron McEwen: we already have evidence that they knew this.

[30:07] Bob Dobbs: What is it that they knew?

[30:10] Cameron McEwen: They knew that all human experience comes in fundamentally different flavors,

[30:23] Cameron McEwen: and that the possibility of individual peace,

[30:30] Cameron McEwen: peace within the individual,

[30:32] Cameron McEwen: familial peace,

[30:34] Cameron McEwen: social peace,

[30:35] Cameron McEwen: intercultural peace,

[30:37] Cameron McEwen: all of those things depend upon an understanding of the plurality of fundamental bases through which humans come to experience.

[30:52] Cameron McEwen: And the great problem with this is that if humans are inherently exposed to fundamental bases,

[31:05] Cameron McEwen: plural,

[31:07] Cameron McEwen: They are also exposed to the gaps between those bases.

[31:13] Cameron McEwen: You cannot have plural bases without gaps between them.

[31:20] Bob Dobbs: So that's bases,

[31:21] Bob Dobbs: B-A-S-E-S.

[31:23] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[31:24] Bob Dobbs: So what's a base?

[31:25] Bob Dobbs: That's context,

[31:26] Bob Dobbs: that's medium,

[31:27] Bob Dobbs: magic circle?

[31:29] Cameron McEwen: Yes,

[31:29] Cameron McEwen: all of the above.

[31:30] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[31:31] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[31:32] Cameron McEwen: So humans have always known.

[31:37] Cameron McEwen: that there are different fundamental ways of coming to experience.

[31:42] Cameron McEwen: And notice that when we say ways of coming to experience,

[31:48] Cameron McEwen: that is a different kind of time from the time within experience itself.

[31:55] Cameron McEwen: It's a little bit like if we say that language is generated through the selection of certain forms.

[32:07] Cameron McEwen: certain grammatical forms and of certain sounds,

[32:11] Cameron McEwen: the time of that generation is not the time of human speech.

[32:18] Cameron McEwen: So when we're talking,

[32:19] Cameron McEwen: we're just talking,

[32:21] Cameron McEwen: we're not at all conscious or working on the selection of grammatical forms and of sounds that make sense.

[32:31] Cameron McEwen: However,

[32:33] Cameron McEwen: going on in our generation of talk,

[32:36] Cameron McEwen: Is this other time through which our understandable language is generated?

[32:43] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[32:44] Cameron McEwen: for McLuhan and,

[32:46] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[32:47] Cameron McEwen: for thinkers going back forever,

[32:50] Cameron McEwen: human experience is subject to this kind of time through which a base is activated.

[33:04] Cameron McEwen: or a fundamental medium is activated.

[33:08] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[33:08] Cameron McEwen: if humans exist only on the surface of their talk,

[33:14] Cameron McEwen: only on the surface of their experience,

[33:18] Cameron McEwen: then anytime people are antagonistic with one another,

[33:25] Cameron McEwen: there's no possibility of peace because what is actually generating their language or generating their experience

[33:33] Cameron McEwen: is hidden.

[33:35] Cameron McEwen: And this whole problematic is something that

[33:43] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan was thinking about really for 40 years.

[33:48] Cameron McEwen: So in his very early Dagwood essay,

[33:52] Cameron McEwen: I think which is from 1942,

[33:56] Cameron McEwen: his concern is to show that Dagwood does not understand

[34:04] Cameron McEwen: the roots of his experience.

[34:09] Cameron McEwen: And because he has been cut off from his roots,

[34:15] Cameron McEwen: he becomes powerless.

[34:18] Cameron McEwen: And through

[34:21] Cameron McEwen: Dagwood's powerlessness,

[34:24] Cameron McEwen: all of the problems that he has personally or in the family or with Mr.

[34:31] Cameron McEwen: Dithers if that was...

[34:32] Cameron McEwen: the right name,

[34:33] Cameron McEwen: I can't remember his boss,

[34:35] Cameron McEwen: but I think it was

[34:36] Cameron McEwen: Mr. Dithers.

[34:37] Cameron McEwen: All of the problems that Dagwood faces in life come from him being cut off from his roots.

[34:44] Cameron McEwen: So from then on,

[34:45] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan is trying to talk about if these roots are actually the roots of human beings,

[34:55] Cameron McEwen: how could we possibly be cut off from them?

[34:59] Cameron McEwen: I had to take a...

[35:00] Cameron McEwen: plant.

[35:00] Cameron McEwen: It gets cut off from its roots.

[35:03] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[35:04] Cameron McEwen: how can it still be a living plant?

[35:06] Cameron McEwen: It can't be.

[35:07] Cameron McEwen: But with humans,

[35:09] Cameron McEwen: we humans can somehow exist apart from our roots.

[35:14] Cameron McEwen: It's an amazing phenomenon,

[35:17] Cameron McEwen: and it generates war because where humans are united through all of their different cultures,

[35:27] Cameron McEwen: all of their different times,

[35:29] Cameron McEwen: all of their different languages is in their roots.

[35:35] Bob Dobbs: Would you,

[35:36] Bob Dobbs: if you were a teacher in a school for young kids,

[35:39] Bob Dobbs: would you teach them that they had more than one self?

[35:45] Bob Dobbs: They bring in the plurality of experience?

[35:48] Cameron McEwen: One of the problems we have,

[35:50] Cameron McEwen: Bob,

[35:50] Cameron McEwen: is if you think of the different approaches to education that are going on at the moment,

[36:01] Cameron McEwen: you have people that genuinely believe.

[36:04] Cameron McEwen: that it's good for children to be exposed to the notion that their gender,

[36:13] Cameron McEwen: that the gender they have been taught may not be the gender they are.

[36:20] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[36:20] Cameron McEwen: So it's not,

[36:22] Cameron McEwen: I think you were headed in the direction that it would be healthy if people learned to question themselves.

[36:32] Cameron McEwen: But no,

[36:33] Cameron McEwen: it is not.

[36:34] Cameron McEwen: healthy for people to question themselves absent roots.

[36:42] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[36:42] Bob Dobbs: roots would be reminding people of their context in early media.

[36:48] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[36:49] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[36:50] Cameron McEwen: But then the problem is that what you're calling early media there,

[36:56] Cameron McEwen: or context,

[36:57] Cameron McEwen: has become a message.

[36:59] Cameron McEwen: So you've gone from one magic circle to another.

[37:05] Cameron McEwen: So the great problem is to try to explicate the access to media that people have as

[37:22] Cameron McEwen: people without threatening their identities,

[37:29] Cameron McEwen: without threatening their family identity.

[37:34] Cameron McEwen: social and cultural identities and that is a very very difficult matter it's something that for 5,000 years has not been solved whether it can be solved now I do not know but

[37:51] Cameron McEwen: if we don't solve it given nuclear weapons and given the sort of idiocy that into which we have devolved and we then we're in deep shit

[38:10] Cameron McEwen: Hello?

[38:11] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[38:12] Bob Dobbs: I'm thinking about what to say next.

[38:16] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[38:17] Cameron McEwen: one thing you could say next is let's just,

[38:19] Cameron McEwen: instead of going further along that road,

[38:25] Cameron McEwen: go back.

[38:25] Bob Dobbs: Go to page 123?

[38:27] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[38:27] Cameron McEwen: we could do that.

[38:28] Cameron McEwen: But before we do that,

[38:31] Cameron McEwen: can you say something about your box,

[38:34] Cameron McEwen: which I'm guessing is some form of...

[38:36] Cameron McEwen: cold fusion or something,

[38:39] Cameron McEwen: and sort of where we're at with the practical application of it.

[38:46] Bob Dobbs: It works,

[38:48] Bob Dobbs: and it's being implemented to bolster the grid around the United States,

[38:53] Bob Dobbs: which many people in the,

[38:58] Bob Dobbs: I don't know what industry that is,

[39:00] Bob Dobbs: resources,

[39:01] Bob Dobbs: energies,

[39:02] Bob Dobbs: pipelines.

[39:05] Bob Dobbs: I don't know what they call it,

[39:06] Bob Dobbs: power sources,

[39:07] Bob Dobbs: hydros,

[39:09] Bob Dobbs: think is going to happen soon.

[39:11] Bob Dobbs: The collapse of the grid,

[39:12] Bob Dobbs: maybe we'll be helped along by some nuclear bombs.

[39:16] Bob Dobbs: So it's ready to,

[39:17] Bob Dobbs: well,

[39:19] Bob Dobbs: it's actually purring along and it's in operation,

[39:22] Bob Dobbs: but it has not been applied to your house yet or your area because the regular grid's still there.

[39:28] Bob Dobbs: So it's,

[39:30] Bob Dobbs: now we don't say what it's made of.

[39:33] Bob Dobbs: It's not at all like Pons and Fleischmann.

[39:36] Bob Dobbs: Cold fusion,

[39:37] Bob Dobbs: it's not like anybody else.

[39:38] Bob Dobbs: There's different ideas that have been propped up lately.

[39:42] Bob Dobbs: It's very unique and almost a mystery how it works.

[39:49] Cameron McEwen: Is it a mode of fusion?

[39:52] Bob Dobbs: No,

[39:54] Bob Dobbs: could be said.

[39:55] Bob Dobbs: It's not at all like anybody else's inventions.

[39:58] Bob Dobbs: So if it's not,

[40:01] Bob Dobbs: you know...

[40:02] Bob Dobbs: Hot fusion,

[40:03] Bob Dobbs: they're saying hot fusion might be available in a year or so,

[40:07] Bob Dobbs: but we're nowhere near like that,

[40:09] Bob Dobbs: that hot fusion.

[40:10] Bob Dobbs: That's too big.

[40:11] Bob Dobbs: Ours is a convenient-sized box.

[40:16] Bob Dobbs: So we won't explain to people the whole structure of it because who knows what they'll do with that knowledge.

[40:25] Bob Dobbs: So people who interact with it only know parts,

[40:30] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[40:30] Bob Dobbs: need-to-know area.

[40:32] Bob Dobbs: They don't know it all.

[40:34] Bob Dobbs: Only we know it all.

[40:36] Bob Dobbs: And we're keeping it that way for now.

[40:43] Bob Dobbs: So that's what

[40:45] Bob Dobbs: I would say.

[40:45] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[40:46] Bob Dobbs: it is being made practical,

[40:50] Bob Dobbs: in place,

[40:52] Bob Dobbs: which a lot of people are happy that something has shown up that works.

[41:00] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[41:00] Bob Dobbs: everybody.

[41:02] Bob Dobbs: Go ahead.

[41:04] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[41:04] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[41:05] Cameron McEwen: there's a parallel between what I was talking about before and what you're talking about now.

[41:12] Cameron McEwen: And what I was talking about before had the great problem that explication has proved impossible over these 5,000 years.

[41:23] Cameron McEwen: But what you're saying is that a new context is possible.

[41:31] Cameron McEwen: And it has demonstrable application.

[41:37] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[41:38] Cameron McEwen: So that would be,

[41:40] Cameron McEwen: if that actually happens,

[41:42] Cameron McEwen: that would be something very good in my view.

[41:45] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[41:45] Bob Dobbs: that would be maybe an extrication.

[41:48] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[41:49] Bob Dobbs: So what would we,

[41:51] Bob Dobbs: since it always,

[41:52] Bob Dobbs: new medium always creates unforeseen effects,

[41:54] Bob Dobbs: what would be the unforeseen effects of this?

[41:57] Bob Dobbs: Peace.

[41:59] Cameron McEwen: Peace.

[41:59] Cameron McEwen: P-E-A-C-E.

[42:03] Cameron McEwen: unexpected results,

[42:07] Cameron McEwen: effects,

[42:09] Cameron McEwen: is not necessarily bad.

[42:13] Cameron McEwen: We're in a world where we're making bad things more and and a change of technology could introduce good things.

[42:27] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[42:27] Bob Dobbs: that would be...

[42:31] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[42:31] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan was saying that the electric environment got us out of a lot of the problems of the Gutenberg,

[42:36] Bob Dobbs: but nobody got completely free of the Gutenberg.

[42:40] Bob Dobbs: They didn't seem to want to go completely.

[42:43] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[42:43] Cameron McEwen: no,

[42:45] Cameron McEwen: it's not.

[42:47] Cameron McEwen: People are out of Gutenberg only in their technology.

[42:53] Cameron McEwen: They're not at all out of Gutenberg in their understanding.

[42:56] Cameron McEwen: That's the whole problem.

[42:58] Bob Dobbs: Is that what you're calling psychology?

[43:04] Cameron McEwen: I don't know that I used that term.

[43:07] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[43:07] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[43:07] Bob Dobbs: at the very beginning you were talking about the chemical science is exterior nature.

[43:16] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[43:16] Cameron McEwen: okay,

[43:17] Cameron McEwen: but the interior landscape has been misunderstood by readers of McLuhan.

[43:25] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[43:25] Cameron McEwen: most readers of McLuhan don't pay any attention to the interior landscape,

[43:29] Cameron McEwen: but the ones that do think that...

[43:32] Cameron McEwen: Interior is something spatial,

[43:36] Cameron McEwen: but it's not.

[43:38] Cameron McEwen: The exterior landscape is the landscape of physical nature.

[43:44] Cameron McEwen: And when we do science,

[43:50] Cameron McEwen: then we take into consideration all of physical nature.

[43:55] Cameron McEwen: From whatever happened,

[43:58] Cameron McEwen: that is happening now,

[43:59] Cameron McEwen: or ever will happen.

[44:01] Cameron McEwen: And how do we do that?

[44:02] Cameron McEwen: We do that through the principles of physical nature,

[44:06] Cameron McEwen: namely the chemical elements.

[44:09] Cameron McEwen: So

[44:10] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan's suggestion for the interior landscape is that we have a similar grasp of the principles of human experience.

[44:22] Cameron McEwen: And human experience is not at all something within people's heads.

[44:27] Cameron McEwen: Human experience involves the...

[44:31] Cameron McEwen: engagement with the physical world.

[44:35] Cameron McEwen: But in physical sciences,

[44:37] Cameron McEwen: we try to get rid of the distortion of individual experience,

[44:45] Cameron McEwen: whereas in the interior landscape,

[44:47] Cameron McEwen: what we're trying to do,

[44:49] Cameron McEwen: as

[44:50] Cameron McEwen: Harold Innis said,

[44:51] Cameron McEwen: is we're trying to use the distortions of experience to generate an understanding of experience.

[45:02] Bob Dobbs: So exterior.

[45:06] Bob Dobbs: is the world of spaces.

[45:11] Cameron McEwen: The interior is not the world of spaces.

[45:12] Cameron McEwen: You said people think the interior is a space.

[45:14] Cameron McEwen: Both of them have very complex relations with times,

[45:21] Cameron McEwen: plural,

[45:22] Cameron McEwen: and spaces,

[45:22] Cameron McEwen: plural.

[45:24] Cameron McEwen: But the times and spaces of the exterior landscape are different from the times and spaces of the interior landscape.

[45:35] Bob Dobbs: Is the tactile gap between the two spaces or just in the interior space?

[45:42] Cameron McEwen: No,

[45:43] Cameron McEwen: the tactile gap is sort of the fundamental condition of the universe.

[45:54] Cameron McEwen: So it's active in the exterior landscape,

[45:59] Cameron McEwen: it's active in the interior landscape,

[46:01] Cameron McEwen: and it's active between the landscapes.

[46:06] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[46:07] Bob Dobbs: iON likes to talk about the outer kingdom,

[46:08] Bob Dobbs: the inner kingdom,

[46:09] Bob Dobbs: and the middle kingdom.

[46:10] Cameron McEwen: Uh-huh.

[46:11] Bob Dobbs: And the middle kingdom is what remains.

[46:15] Bob Dobbs: The inner kingdom and the outer kingdom don't.

[46:20] Bob Dobbs: So it seems that the interval space is more constant than the external or the internal.

[46:29] Cameron McEwen: Yes,

[46:29] Cameron McEwen: that's true.

[46:29] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[46:32] Cameron McEwen: we have to understand...

[46:34] Cameron McEwen: I'm just making some coffee here,

[46:36] Cameron McEwen: so if you hear some strange noises,

[46:40] Cameron McEwen: that's what it's about.

[46:43] Cameron McEwen: It's not as if there is a single space and there's the,

[46:46] Cameron McEwen: I'm trying to remember the language you used.

[46:54] Cameron McEwen: You had the middle kingdom.

[46:56] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[46:56] Bob Dobbs: the inner and the outer kingdoms and then the middle kingdom.

[46:59] Cameron McEwen: So as the middle changes.

[47:03] Cameron McEwen: So do the two sides.

[47:06] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[47:07] Cameron McEwen: So remains here,

[47:13] Cameron McEwen: its most important time is a logical time.

[47:19] Cameron McEwen: It's true in the world that when the middle changes,

[47:24] Cameron McEwen: the sides change.

[47:26] Cameron McEwen: But more important than that is the principle that is always at work.

[47:32] Cameron McEwen: So it's the principle that allows us to understand practical things in the world.

[47:38] Cameron McEwen: It's not practical things in the world that then lead to the principle.

[47:47] Bob Dobbs: How do you spell principle?

[47:48] Bob Dobbs: That's P-L-E?

[47:49] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[47:51] Bob Dobbs: What is that,

[47:51] Bob Dobbs: a law?

[47:54] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[47:54] Cameron McEwen: no,

[47:55] Cameron McEwen: according to McLuhan,

[47:56] Cameron McEwen: it's a discipline.

[47:57] Bob Dobbs: So,

[47:58] Cameron McEwen: for example,

[47:59] Cameron McEwen: in science...

[48:01] Cameron McEwen: let's say chemistry or physics or biology or genetics or whatever,

[48:07] Cameron McEwen: we come to the truth about things,

[48:11] Cameron McEwen: not through some kind of momentary revelation.

[48:16] Cameron McEwen: We come to the truth of things through a discipline that's open-ended.

[48:20] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan called it making as opposed to matching.

[48:24] Cameron McEwen: We engage in the making of a discipline.

[48:29] Cameron McEwen: And that's what...

[48:30] Cameron McEwen: He said was the sort of the new science that we need.

[48:36] Bob Dobbs: So when he titles the book Laws of Media,

[48:39] Bob Dobbs: is laws the same meaning as principles?

[48:46] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[48:52] Cameron McEwen: I think,

[48:53] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[48:54] Cameron McEwen: let's say that let's think of this in terms of an actual science.

[48:59] Cameron McEwen: chemistry or physics.

[49:01] Cameron McEwen: In chemistry,

[49:02] Cameron McEwen: you have the elements,

[49:04] Cameron McEwen: and then the structure of the elements allows combinations through what we call valence.

[49:15] Cameron McEwen: So the outer ring of electrons either allows combinations with the outer rings of electrons and other elements,

[49:28] Cameron McEwen: or it doesn't.

[49:29] Cameron McEwen: If it doesn't,

[49:30] Cameron McEwen: then you have the inert gases.

[49:32] Cameron McEwen: If it does,

[49:33] Cameron McEwen: then you have a range of different sorts of valence according to the structure of those outer rings.

[49:40] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[49:41] Cameron McEwen: So you could say that if you want to call the elements principles,

[49:48] Cameron McEwen: then valence can be called laws.

[49:53] Cameron McEwen: So there's an interrelationship between principle and law.

[49:58] Cameron McEwen: And

[49:58] Cameron McEwen: I wouldn't want to say that the one generates the other in linear time because then we get into some sort of Gutenbergian...

[50:08] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[50:09] Cameron McEwen: dialectic.

[50:10] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[50:12] Bob Dobbs: So what were the two things there?

[50:14] Bob Dobbs: Elements and chemistry.

[50:17] Cameron McEwen: And they're laws.

[50:19] Cameron McEwen: And I said valence,

[50:20] Cameron McEwen: but we could just say in general laws,

[50:22] Cameron McEwen: which is what you were talking about.

[50:25] Cameron McEwen: You were talking about principles and laws,

[50:27] Cameron McEwen: and I was trying to explicate that in terms of chemistry.

[50:31] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[50:31] Bob Dobbs: and that elements is what?

[50:35] Bob Dobbs: Laws and principles?

[50:41] Cameron McEwen: I don't know.

[50:43] Bob Dobbs: I know.

[50:44] Bob Dobbs: What's the other side?

[50:45] Bob Dobbs: You've got elements in chemistry.

[50:46] Bob Dobbs: What do you have in media?

[50:49] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[50:49] Cameron McEwen: that's the…

[50:54] Bob Dobbs: Principles?

[50:55] Cameron McEwen: You see,

[50:59] Cameron McEwen: before I was talking about bases.

[51:01] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[51:02] Cameron McEwen: Or we can talk about media as the plural of medium.

[51:08] Cameron McEwen: Or we can talk about fundamentals.

[51:12] Cameron McEwen: There's many different ways of trying to characterize the possible plural basic units of a science of media,

[51:27] Cameron McEwen: science of the interior landscape.

[51:31] Cameron McEwen: But how to characterize those units is itself.

[51:41] Cameron McEwen: a question for the science.

[51:44] Cameron McEwen: So when Priestley and Lavoisier were working in their labs in the late

[51:51] Cameron McEwen: 18th century and began to see that oxygen must be an element and thereby began to characterize the element something

[52:08] Cameron McEwen: that would not be

[52:09] Cameron McEwen: completed for another hundred years with Mendeleev's table,

[52:18] Cameron McEwen: what was precipitated out of the work of Priestley and Lavoisier was the question of what is an element,

[52:26] Cameron McEwen: how to characterize it,

[52:28] Cameron McEwen: how to use it in the lab,

[52:30] Cameron McEwen: how to use it in practical ways in life,

[52:32] Cameron McEwen: etc.

[52:33] Cameron McEwen: And all of modern history sort of has evolved.

[52:38] Cameron McEwen: from that.

[52:40] Cameron McEwen: So

[52:40] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan's suggestion is that something similar is possible for the interior landscape.

[52:47] Cameron McEwen: But the interior landscape cannot be started by people saying just this is how we have to understand the medium.

[52:57] Cameron McEwen: It doesn't work like that.

[53:00] Cameron McEwen: If we look at the history of chemistry or the history of genetics,

[53:06] Cameron McEwen: it's very clear that

[53:08] Cameron McEwen: The beginning of a science is always very indistinct,

[53:14] Cameron McEwen: and then the science works at making it distinct.

[53:18] Cameron McEwen: So we shouldn't expect anything different in a science of the interior landscape.

[53:25] Cameron McEwen: But the problem is,

[53:27] Cameron McEwen: how does something that people have known for 5,000 years and have always failed to communicate,

[53:36] Cameron McEwen: how does that get communicated?

[53:38] Cameron McEwen: as a possibility so as to engage common work on it.

[53:45] Cameron McEwen: And that remains unsolved.

[53:48] Cameron McEwen: When I talk to people about the possibilities of common work,

[53:56] Cameron McEwen: their eyes glaze over.

[53:57] Cameron McEwen: They cannot bring themselves to do it.

[54:00] Cameron McEwen: Even people of goodwill,

[54:02] Cameron McEwen: even people that have a decent mind,

[54:06] Cameron McEwen: as soon as they're confronted

[54:08] Cameron McEwen: With the possibility of common work on the interior landscape,

[54:15] Cameron McEwen: that is to say human experience,

[54:18] Cameron McEwen: they cannot do it.

[54:19] Cameron McEwen: I've had this experience for at least 50 years.

[54:26] Cameron McEwen: Even good friends,

[54:27] Cameron McEwen: you say to them,

[54:28] Cameron McEwen: look,

[54:29] Cameron McEwen: let's just do a diagram here,

[54:34] Cameron McEwen: a very simple diagram.

[54:36] Cameron McEwen: They refuse.

[54:37] Cameron McEwen: They will not do it.

[54:38] Cameron McEwen: It's radioactive.

[54:41] Cameron McEwen: And this radioactivity is what has generated Western civilization,

[54:48] Cameron McEwen: and it needs to be understood.

[54:51] Cameron McEwen: But as long as people are afraid of the radioactivity,

[54:55] Cameron McEwen: it won't be understood.

[54:58] Bob Dobbs: So we're going forth and implementing a solution,

[55:02] Bob Dobbs: as you said earlier,

[55:03] Bob Dobbs: understanding what our box is.

[55:06] Bob Dobbs: You say,

[55:07] Bob Dobbs: well,

[55:07] Bob Dobbs: that'd be quite remarkable,

[55:09] Bob Dobbs: or a delight,

[55:10] Bob Dobbs: if that's...

[55:11] Bob Dobbs: what can be done with it.

[55:13] Bob Dobbs: So as the bombs explode,

[55:15] Bob Dobbs: we're walking around,

[55:17] Bob Dobbs: hopefully not getting nuked,

[55:19] Bob Dobbs: and implementing the new environment.

[55:22] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[55:23] Cameron McEwen: if that happens,

[55:24] Cameron McEwen: that would be a very welcome thing.

[55:27] Cameron McEwen: That would be the change after 5,000 years that we need.

[55:33] Cameron McEwen: Not just we.

[55:35] Cameron McEwen: You know,

[55:35] Cameron McEwen: human beings are a little bit of a failed experiment.

[55:39] Cameron McEwen: the

[55:41] Cameron McEwen: The great problem in the world is not so much that people are killing people,

[55:48] Cameron McEwen: which is already a terrible,

[55:49] Cameron McEwen: terrible thing.

[55:51] Cameron McEwen: But there are all these plant and animal species that depend on us.

[56:00] Cameron McEwen: If we start nuking everything,

[56:03] Cameron McEwen: they're history.

[56:05] Cameron McEwen: That's a terrible thing that we do to...

[56:10] Cameron McEwen: plants and animals that are dependent upon us doing the right thing.

[56:18] Bob Dobbs: So us walking around and implementing the box in various environments that larger environments can then use,

[56:28] Bob Dobbs: that's a communication,

[56:30] Bob Dobbs: right?

[56:31] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.

[56:31] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[56:33] Bob Dobbs: that's a medium.

[56:33] Bob Dobbs: Absolutely.

[56:33] Cameron McEwen: It's a very important communication.

[56:37] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[56:38] Bob Dobbs: so...

[56:38] Bob Dobbs: You couldn't get a guide to your neighbor to look at the common work or design or whatever it was you were saying.

[56:45] Bob Dobbs: Sure.

[56:46] Cameron McEwen: For example,

[56:46] Cameron McEwen: Clinton.

[56:49] Bob Dobbs: So we seem to be able to communicate.

[56:53] Bob Dobbs: We don't even have to say much words.

[56:55] Bob Dobbs: We say,

[56:55] Bob Dobbs: look,

[56:56] Bob Dobbs: and switch it on,

[56:57] Bob Dobbs: and there it is.

[56:58] Bob Dobbs: It's a talking environment.

[57:00] Bob Dobbs: It communicates.

[57:02] Bob Dobbs: And it seems to say,

[57:03] Bob Dobbs: wow,

[57:04] Bob Dobbs: yes,

[57:04] Bob Dobbs: that is the meter show that is doing that.

[57:07] Bob Dobbs: So...

[57:10] Cameron McEwen: The great problem,

[57:11] Cameron McEwen: Bob,

[57:12] Cameron McEwen: is that there is very little that is less common in human affairs than people putting forward the ultimate solution.

[57:29] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[57:31] Cameron McEwen: The ultimate solution is out there a million fold.

[57:36] Cameron McEwen: So it doesn't do any good.

[57:37] Cameron McEwen: to say,

[57:38] Cameron McEwen: here's the solution,

[57:40] Cameron McEwen: we're showing something practical,

[57:42] Cameron McEwen: on and on and on,

[57:43] Cameron McEwen: because everybody has heard it before.

[57:46] Cameron McEwen: So the practical application,

[57:49] Cameron McEwen: as you say,

[57:50] Cameron McEwen: needs to be a switch gets pushed,

[57:54] Cameron McEwen: and then lights go on or something,

[57:59] Cameron McEwen: and people are dumbfounded in some way.

[58:03] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[58:04] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[58:04] Cameron McEwen: The talk about it,

[58:06] Cameron McEwen: the...

[58:07] Bob Dobbs: you know let's go invest in it and all this sort of stuff that's that's as common as dirt yeah so we we don't talk it we do it and it remains relatively secret yeah until until yeah the people need it and

[58:26] Bob Dobbs: they don't see that they need it yet their electricity is working fine they don't know there's problems in the grid there is

[58:35] Bob Dobbs: But you in California,

[58:37] Bob Dobbs: you've got rolling blackouts and things,

[58:38] Bob Dobbs: right?

[58:40] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[58:40] Cameron McEwen: definitely,

[58:40] Cameron McEwen: definitely.

[58:41] Cameron McEwen: But it's not as if,

[58:43] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[58:46] Cameron McEwen: Elon Musk has set up a series of batteries,

[58:52] Cameron McEwen: and I believe it's in

[58:53] Cameron McEwen: South Australia electrical infrastructure.

[58:59] Cameron McEwen: And it's an attempt to solve blackouts.

[59:04] Cameron McEwen: problems that are very common there.

[59:10] Cameron McEwen: And it amounts to a working demonstration of this sort of solution.

[59:19] Cameron McEwen: So what you're talking about is,

[59:22] Cameron McEwen: I think people appreciate that need,

[59:25] Cameron McEwen: they're investing in it,

[59:27] Cameron McEwen: they're experimenting in it in various ways.

[59:30] Cameron McEwen: So if you can solve that in a new way.

[59:35] Cameron McEwen: that is less expensive or more sure or more robust.

[59:43] Cameron McEwen: Pardon me?

[59:44] Bob Dobbs: No pollution.

[59:46] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[59:46] Cameron McEwen: so there are ways of implementing what you're talking about that would end up being revolutionary.

[59:54] Cameron McEwen: So

[59:56] Cameron McEwen: I encourage it,

[59:57] Cameron McEwen: but I see many problems to doing it.

[1:00:01] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:00:03] Bob Dobbs: we've...

[1:00:03] Bob Dobbs: been dealing with problems for 10 years,

[1:00:06] Bob Dobbs: pretty well how long we've had it,

[1:00:08] Bob Dobbs: and,

[1:00:08] Bob Dobbs: um,

[1:00:09] Bob Dobbs: Nothing has stopped us.

[1:00:10] Bob Dobbs: We have solved all problems that have come up.

[1:00:13] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:00:14] Cameron McEwen: all right.

[1:00:14] Bob Dobbs: So we're on a roll,

[1:00:16] Bob Dobbs: as they say.

[1:00:18] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:00:18] Bob Dobbs: just in your experience,

[1:00:21] Bob Dobbs: you have a rolling blackout.

[1:00:22] Bob Dobbs: How does that affect you in your day?

[1:00:27] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:00:28] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:00:29] Cameron McEwen: we don't have them here.

[1:00:31] Cameron McEwen: But the first problem that people have is with their refrigerators,

[1:00:37] Cameron McEwen: I think.

[1:00:40] Cameron McEwen: The air conditioning goes down and the refrigerator stops and the combination of those two things leads to food being spoiled

[1:00:55] Cameron McEwen: or at least to become suspect.

[1:00:58] Cameron McEwen: And if that happens on a large scale,

[1:01:04] Cameron McEwen: then you can have problems in the food supply.

[1:01:08] Cameron McEwen: You can have problems of people needing to go to the hospital,

[1:01:14] Cameron McEwen: but the hospitals don't have enough power to look after everybody,

[1:01:18] Cameron McEwen: and that can snowball.

[1:01:20] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:01:20] Bob Dobbs: how come that hasn't happened yet in California?

[1:01:28] Cameron McEwen: Just because the system,

[1:01:32] Cameron McEwen: although it's old and creaky,

[1:01:36] Cameron McEwen: has only had...

[1:01:37] Cameron McEwen: fairly minor problems thus far.

[1:01:42] Bob Dobbs: That's lucky.

[1:01:44] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:01:46] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:01:46] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:01:47] Bob Dobbs: they turn off stuff,

[1:01:48] Bob Dobbs: and then they maybe have a blackout for four hours,

[1:01:50] Bob Dobbs: and the fridge has not rotted yet,

[1:01:52] Bob Dobbs: and then they put it back on.

[1:01:54] Bob Dobbs: Is that how they do it?

[1:01:54] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[1:01:55] Bob Dobbs: I see.

[1:01:56] Cameron McEwen: Yes,

[1:01:56] Cameron McEwen: but the reason the blackout only lasts for four hours,

[1:02:00] Cameron McEwen: let's say,

[1:02:02] Cameron McEwen: is that throughout the country and even in California,

[1:02:06] Cameron McEwen: which is relatively isolated.

[1:02:08] Cameron McEwen: The states in the east are much more integrated because they're smaller and they don't have the kind of mountains that separate

[1:02:20] Cameron McEwen: California from the states to the east.

[1:02:27] Cameron McEwen: Even in California,

[1:02:28] Cameron McEwen: there are power sharing agreements between different systems.

[1:02:34] Cameron McEwen: So when

[1:02:36] Cameron McEwen: system fails or part of the system fails,

[1:02:39] Cameron McEwen: there are ways of calling in power from different sources.

[1:02:46] Cameron McEwen: So,

[1:02:47] Cameron McEwen: so far,

[1:02:49] Cameron McEwen: the systems have been able to kind of balance themselves.

[1:02:58] Cameron McEwen: But it's,

[1:02:59] Cameron McEwen: as you say,

[1:02:59] Cameron McEwen: It's precarious.

[1:03:02] Cameron McEwen: Everybody fears that there are ways.

[1:03:05] Cameron McEwen: in which the electrical infrastructure is imperiled.

[1:03:11] Bob Dobbs: Great.

[1:03:11] Bob Dobbs: How come you haven't had any blackouts?

[1:03:14] Bob Dobbs: And you're near San Diego?

[1:03:17] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:03:18] Cameron McEwen: in between San Diego and L.A.

[1:03:19] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:03:20] Bob Dobbs: how come you avoided them,

[1:03:23] Bob Dobbs: your area?

[1:03:25] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:03:25] Cameron McEwen: I'm not sure.

[1:03:27] Cameron McEwen: Probably there are good power-sharing arrangements.

[1:03:35] Cameron McEwen: that are less available around San Francisco.

[1:03:38] Cameron McEwen: Up around San Francisco is where the rolling blackouts usually occur.

[1:03:43] Cameron McEwen: But they can occur here.

[1:03:46] Cameron McEwen: There have been some times when people have been asked to shut down their air conditioning or not use power in various ways.

[1:04:01] Bob Dobbs: In your area,

[1:04:02] Bob Dobbs: that's happened.

[1:04:03] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:04:07] Cameron McEwen: The way that power is set up here is that you can sign up to get a reduction in your electricity cost by

[1:04:21] Cameron McEwen: allowing the electric company,

[1:04:27] Cameron McEwen: in our case Southern California Edison,

[1:04:31] Cameron McEwen: to give you less power.

[1:04:35] Cameron McEwen: at certain times of the year.

[1:04:38] Cameron McEwen: So you sign up to give the company that power or that right,

[1:04:46] Cameron McEwen: and in return,

[1:04:48] Cameron McEwen: you get a reduction of your cost.

[1:04:52] Cameron McEwen: And we haven't signed up for that,

[1:04:55] Cameron McEwen: but probably many people have.

[1:04:58] Cameron McEwen: So that's one way of trying to sort of regulate the grid.

[1:05:05] Bob Dobbs: Um...

[1:05:08] Bob Dobbs: It's interesting how you're defining what we have to do,

[1:05:11] Bob Dobbs: and I see,

[1:05:12] Bob Dobbs: well,

[1:05:12] Bob Dobbs: that's what we,

[1:05:13] Bob Dobbs: what I'm doing.

[1:05:15] Bob Dobbs: I'm talking to someone who's very aware of the consequences of new environments and what has happened in history all the way through.

[1:05:26] Bob Dobbs: So it's interesting talking about this with you,

[1:05:32] Bob Dobbs: because I think we cover a lot of the things that have to be said about any new thing that's coming in.

[1:05:38] Bob Dobbs: while I'm doing it.

[1:05:42] Bob Dobbs: You're a part of the process here.

[1:05:46] Bob Dobbs: When we get it all laid out and it happens and it's a fait accompli,

[1:05:51] Bob Dobbs: then I would say,

[1:05:52] Bob Dobbs: you want to know what it was like to do it?

[1:05:54] Bob Dobbs: You go listen to me and Cameron talking through the two years of it,

[1:05:58] Bob Dobbs: so to speak.

[1:05:59] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:06:00] Cameron McEwen: well,

[1:06:01] Bob Dobbs: yes.

[1:06:01] Bob Dobbs: The 59 episodes.

[1:06:04] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:06:05] Cameron McEwen: I very much...

[1:06:06] Cameron McEwen: encourage the practical demonstration of new technology that implicates possibilities of peace.

[1:06:18] Cameron McEwen: Since most wars have to do with trying to capitalize on energy or defend energy or attack energy.

[1:06:33] Cameron McEwen: New technologies of energy are highly,

[1:06:37] Cameron McEwen: highly important.

[1:06:39] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:06:41] Bob Dobbs: I think that on the popular cultural,

[1:06:44] Bob Dobbs: or just where the public is,

[1:06:46] Bob Dobbs: the collective consciousness McLuhan said we'd arrived at,

[1:06:49] Bob Dobbs: most people are media ecologists in a very crude way.

[1:06:53] Bob Dobbs: They understand that you look around and see the effects.

[1:06:57] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[1:06:58] Bob Dobbs: they see it in the detectives on their TV shows every night,

[1:07:02] Bob Dobbs: you know.

[1:07:02] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[1:07:06] Cameron McEwen: Everybody has the idea that whatever is said,

[1:07:13] Cameron McEwen: whatever is experienced comes from some point of view.

[1:07:18] Cameron McEwen: So everybody is a media ecologist in the Gutenbergian sense.

[1:07:22] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:07:26] Cameron McEwen: But that Gutenbergian sense is the problem.

[1:07:31] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:07:32] Bob Dobbs: So the...

[1:07:34] Bob Dobbs: I guess the supreme example of

[1:07:37] Bob Dobbs: Gutenbergian media ecology is media literacy programs,

[1:07:42] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:07:42] Cameron McEwen: Yes,

[1:07:43] Cameron McEwen: yeah,

[1:07:44] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.

[1:07:45] Bob Dobbs: That seems to be the most popular way of implementing

[1:07:49] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan's work.

[1:07:51] Bob Dobbs: So Gutenbergian,

[1:07:52] Bob Dobbs: it's ridiculous.

[1:07:52] Bob Dobbs: It really bothered Eric McLuhan.

[1:07:54] Bob Dobbs: He was very angry about the media literacy people.

[1:07:59] Bob Dobbs: But again,

[1:07:59] Bob Dobbs: it's easy to understand.

[1:08:01] Bob Dobbs: It fits into the old assumptions that don't work,

[1:08:05] Bob Dobbs: but people don't want to notice they don't work.

[1:08:08] Bob Dobbs: They want to,

[1:08:09] Bob Dobbs: quote,

[1:08:09] Bob Dobbs: believe in it.

[1:08:12] Bob Dobbs: It's familiar.

[1:08:15] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[1:08:15] Cameron McEwen: So the problem,

[1:08:21] Cameron McEwen: as I said earlier,

[1:08:22] Cameron McEwen: is 5,000 years old.

[1:08:27] Cameron McEwen: Civilization is generated out of the...

[1:08:31] Cameron McEwen: insolubility of the problem.

[1:08:34] Cameron McEwen: So solving it is a very,

[1:08:36] Cameron McEwen: very difficult problem.

[1:08:39] Bob Dobbs: The shock of being,

[1:08:41] Bob Dobbs: of solving it,

[1:08:42] Bob Dobbs: is a new effect.

[1:08:43] Cameron McEwen: Correct,

[1:08:46] Cameron McEwen: correct.

[1:08:46] Cameron McEwen: So we don't know if we're in an environment sort of the last days of the biosphere,

[1:08:57] Cameron McEwen: or if we're in the first days of...

[1:09:01] Cameron McEwen: a new sense of media that is going to liberate not only humans,

[1:09:10] Cameron McEwen: but the beings of the earth.

[1:09:13] Bob Dobbs: Right,

[1:09:13] Bob Dobbs: so we don't know where we're at.

[1:09:18] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[1:09:20] Bob Dobbs: That's probably a Gutenbergian question,

[1:09:22] Bob Dobbs: or at least a Gutenbergian response.

[1:09:25] Bob Dobbs: That is not going to be resolved.

[1:09:31] Bob Dobbs: Unless what we're doing,

[1:09:34] Bob Dobbs: what my friends and I are doing,

[1:09:35] Bob Dobbs: is so obvious.

[1:09:37] Bob Dobbs: The obviousness of it bypasses,

[1:09:41] Bob Dobbs: are we ending ourselves or beginning a new thing?

[1:09:45] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:09:46] Bob Dobbs: But the issue is,

[1:09:48] Bob Dobbs: you don't know,

[1:09:50] Bob Dobbs: do you have to get everybody to see it?

[1:09:54] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:09:54] Cameron McEwen: of course not.

[1:09:55] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:09:55] Bob Dobbs: because in one valley,

[1:09:56] Bob Dobbs: you're implementing the solution.

[1:09:58] Bob Dobbs: Over the mountain in another valley,

[1:09:59] Bob Dobbs: they're nuking each other.

[1:10:01] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:10:02] Cameron McEwen: no,

[1:10:02] Cameron McEwen: I wouldn't say that.

[1:10:03] Cameron McEwen: But if you just think of what happened with the scientific revolution in the roughly 200 years that science has really gotten going,

[1:10:17] Cameron McEwen: the amount of understanding of those sciences in terms of,

[1:10:22] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[1:10:22] Cameron McEwen: how many people understood what was going on was very,

[1:10:26] Cameron McEwen: very small.

[1:10:27] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:10:28] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[1:10:28] Cameron McEwen: But everybody lived the effects.

[1:10:31] Cameron McEwen: So nobody understands,

[1:10:33] Cameron McEwen: as Clinton would say,

[1:10:34] Cameron McEwen: nobody understands what's going on inside the computer.

[1:10:38] Cameron McEwen: Most people don't understand what's going on inside the car,

[1:10:42] Cameron McEwen: which is now,

[1:10:43] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[1:10:43] Cameron McEwen: a big computer.

[1:10:45] Cameron McEwen: So it's not to live in a world that is completely structured by science does not implicate any detailed knowledge of science.

[1:10:58] Cameron McEwen: On the contrary,

[1:11:00] Cameron McEwen: people...

[1:11:01] Cameron McEwen: are held by science into ignorance.

[1:11:09] Cameron McEwen: That's sort of what makes the electric economy work.

[1:11:15] Cameron McEwen: Keep staring at your phone and do not think.

[1:11:22] Cameron McEwen: So in the new environment,

[1:11:27] Cameron McEwen: it's probably not the case that people would understand

[1:11:32] Cameron McEwen: technically or understand intellectually what is going on.

[1:11:40] Cameron McEwen: It's just that they would no longer be exposed to the weaponization of everything,

[1:11:51] Cameron McEwen: the weaponization of government against its own people,

[1:11:56] Cameron McEwen: the weaponization of corporate products.

[1:12:00] Cameron McEwen: against their own users.

[1:12:03] Cameron McEwen: That's the world that we live in now and the extrication from that can only take place through the birth of

[1:12:17] Cameron McEwen: some new technology,

[1:12:21] Cameron McEwen: be it a physical technology like you're talking about or be it a new science like

[1:12:28] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan was talking about.

[1:12:30] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:12:32] Bob Dobbs: So I brought up the fact that people are

[1:12:36] Bob Dobbs: Gutenbergian media ecologists.

[1:12:39] Bob Dobbs: I get a sense of the elites that we're interacting with that are helping us implement things because it's very expensive,

[1:12:46] Bob Dobbs: some of the things we're dealing with.

[1:12:50] Bob Dobbs: There seems to be an intelligence at the highest levels of whatever these people are.

[1:12:56] Cameron McEwen: I don't believe that.

[1:12:58] Cameron McEwen: Bob,

[1:12:58] Cameron McEwen: but maybe.

[1:12:59] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:12:59] Bob Dobbs: that's what's interesting.

[1:13:00] Bob Dobbs: They don't demand us to allow them to invest in it.

[1:13:08] Bob Dobbs: We don't want investment.

[1:13:10] Bob Dobbs: People throw money at us.

[1:13:11] Bob Dobbs: We say,

[1:13:12] Bob Dobbs: no,

[1:13:12] Bob Dobbs: not interested.

[1:13:13] Bob Dobbs: And people back off.

[1:13:16] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if that would happen before.

[1:13:20] Bob Dobbs: There seems to be an understanding that this is very dire and this better work because we haven't got much.

[1:13:27] Bob Dobbs: Anything else coming along?

[1:13:28] Bob Dobbs: A lot of stuff has been attempted the last 30,

[1:13:30] Bob Dobbs: 40 years,

[1:13:31] Bob Dobbs: but none of it works.

[1:13:32] Bob Dobbs: So there seems to be an interesting understanding.

[1:13:39] Bob Dobbs: That's what I'm noticing.

[1:13:42] Bob Dobbs: Not a resistance,

[1:13:43] Bob Dobbs: so that's pretty neat,

[1:13:44] Bob Dobbs: because just think of the resistance of everything up to this point.

[1:13:50] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:13:51] Bob Dobbs: well,

[1:13:51] Bob Dobbs: anyways,

[1:13:51] Bob Dobbs: there's all kinds of examples of resistance to new technologies.

[1:13:55] Bob Dobbs: There may be a resistance to us,

[1:13:58] Bob Dobbs: but not yet,

[1:14:00] Bob Dobbs: which is pretty good.

[1:14:03] Bob Dobbs: I don't think people,

[1:14:06] Bob Dobbs: if everybody has this relatively box of endless electricity,

[1:14:10] Bob Dobbs: it displaces the old money-based economy of survival.

[1:14:18] Bob Dobbs: Once you have your box,

[1:14:19] Bob Dobbs: you don't need to pay rent to anybody.

[1:14:23] Bob Dobbs: You don't need their energy source.

[1:14:24] Bob Dobbs: You've got your own.

[1:14:26] Bob Dobbs: That leaves a lot of autonomy,

[1:14:28] Bob Dobbs: which would collapse the visual space of the money environment,

[1:14:33] Bob Dobbs: the Gutenberg money environment.

[1:14:37] Cameron McEwen: Which is disappearing,

[1:14:40] Cameron McEwen: as we speak,

[1:14:42] Cameron McEwen: from other causes.

[1:14:45] Cameron McEwen: So the idea that you can just print unlimited amounts of money.

[1:14:54] Cameron McEwen: and receive physical materials and services.

[1:15:00] Cameron McEwen: for those pieces of paper,

[1:15:02] Cameron McEwen: that is disappearing.

[1:15:05] Cameron McEwen: And then the idea that you can have an economy built on derivatives,

[1:15:11] Cameron McEwen: which is,

[1:15:14] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[1:15:15] Cameron McEwen: the symbol of and have that pyramid of symbols represent investment,

[1:15:27] Cameron McEwen: that's disappearing.

[1:15:28] Cameron McEwen: So

[1:15:30] Cameron McEwen: The possibility of nukes is not just one of nuclear bombs.

[1:15:41] Cameron McEwen: It's also a possibility of financial explosion,

[1:15:48] Cameron McEwen: which is even more likely in my view.

[1:15:53] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:15:53] Bob Dobbs: apparently the explosion has happened.

[1:15:56] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:15:57] Bob Dobbs: in England...

[1:15:59] Bob Dobbs: That new guy,

[1:16:00] Bob Dobbs: the Indian,

[1:16:01] Bob Dobbs: Asian Indian guy.

[1:16:03] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:16:04] Bob Dobbs: that's going to be the prime minister.

[1:16:07] Bob Dobbs: I think I saw him.

[1:16:08] Bob Dobbs: I never saw him before.

[1:16:09] Bob Dobbs: But last March,

[1:16:10] Bob Dobbs: he was in the

[1:16:11] Bob Dobbs: British Parliament,

[1:16:12] Bob Dobbs: and he announced,

[1:16:12] Bob Dobbs: like,

[1:16:12] Bob Dobbs: in a couple of weeks,

[1:16:14] Bob Dobbs: they're going to bring in a digital currency.

[1:16:16] Bob Dobbs: And I thought,

[1:16:17] Bob Dobbs: well,

[1:16:17] Bob Dobbs: that's weird.

[1:16:17] Bob Dobbs: He's saying this is going to happen in two weeks.

[1:16:19] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:16:19] Bob Dobbs: when's it going to happen?

[1:16:21] Bob Dobbs: And then when I saw this guy replace Liz Truss,

[1:16:25] Bob Dobbs: I said,

[1:16:25] Bob Dobbs: that's the guy who made that announcement back in March.

[1:16:28] Bob Dobbs: So he was destined,

[1:16:33] Bob Dobbs: he knew what he was talking about because he was going to be in charge of it once they got rid of Johnson and

[1:16:39] Bob Dobbs: Liz Truss.

[1:16:40] Bob Dobbs: He had to wait for that process to happen.

[1:16:42] Bob Dobbs: So there he is sitting pretty with the power to sort of attempt a new currency.

[1:16:50] Bob Dobbs: Now what was funny is

[1:16:54] Bob Dobbs: Russell Brand,

[1:16:54] Bob Dobbs: I think it is,

[1:16:56] Bob Dobbs: found some footage of him.

[1:16:57] Bob Dobbs: you

[1:16:58] Bob Dobbs: He had,

[1:17:00] Bob Dobbs: the other day,

[1:17:00] Bob Dobbs: to make himself look like a common man,

[1:17:03] Bob Dobbs: he had himself putting gas into his car.

[1:17:08] Bob Dobbs: But he didn't use his car,

[1:17:10] Bob Dobbs: the Jaguar.

[1:17:11] Bob Dobbs: He flagged down some guy at the gas station and said,

[1:17:14] Bob Dobbs: can I borrow your car,

[1:17:15] Bob Dobbs: which was an average car.

[1:17:17] Bob Dobbs: And he had himself putting gas in an average car so he could look average.

[1:17:21] Bob Dobbs: So Russell Brand says,

[1:17:23] Bob Dobbs: wow,

[1:17:24] Bob Dobbs: there they are,

[1:17:25] Bob Dobbs: another guy lying.

[1:17:26] Bob Dobbs: We don't need another guy lying to us.

[1:17:30] Bob Dobbs: He's not qualified.

[1:17:31] Bob Dobbs: And then they showed him going into a

[1:17:35] Bob Dobbs: 7-Eleven where he had to,

[1:17:37] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:17:38] Bob Dobbs: pass his credit card and pay for some candy or pop,

[1:17:42] Bob Dobbs: and he didn't know how to do it.

[1:17:44] Bob Dobbs: So there was an awkward bumbling with his credit card.

[1:17:48] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:17:49] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if those things were released.

[1:17:53] Bob Dobbs: Why are we getting to see them?

[1:17:54] Bob Dobbs: Why didn't he stop it?

[1:17:57] Bob Dobbs: That seems to be symptomatic of or an illustration of the futility of putting a person in a power position.

[1:18:06] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:18:06] Bob Dobbs: remember,

[1:18:06] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan said that what's not noticed is we're this is in the late 60s.

[1:18:11] Bob Dobbs: We're being governed by committees.

[1:18:13] Bob Dobbs: It's government by committee.

[1:18:14] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:18:16] Bob Dobbs: that could be that could be your magic circle.

[1:18:18] Bob Dobbs: The the government by committee.

[1:18:20] Bob Dobbs: There is no government by

[1:18:23] Bob Dobbs: Biden.

[1:18:24] Bob Dobbs: He doesn't do it.

[1:18:25] Bob Dobbs: Correct.

[1:18:27] Cameron McEwen: That's one of the reasons

[1:18:30] Cameron McEwen: I said to you that your question about what would you say if you had access to the Oval Office,

[1:18:38] Cameron McEwen: that's exactly why I said that the question didn't make any sense to me.

[1:18:43] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:18:44] Bob Dobbs: because that's not where decisions are made.

[1:18:47] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:18:48] Bob Dobbs: the committee can be the cabinet,

[1:18:51] Bob Dobbs: and they brief themselves every day.

[1:18:55] Bob Dobbs: And,

[1:18:55] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:18:55] Bob Dobbs: buys one of the humans in the magic circle and they discuss whatever's happening and the implications for each one of their departments.

[1:19:03] Bob Dobbs: So that is what my image is of government by committee,

[1:19:10] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:19:10] Bob Dobbs: where there is not a dictatorship unless the cabinet is a dictatorship of Gutenbergian ignorance.

[1:19:21] Bob Dobbs: There's a problem there.

[1:19:23] Cameron McEwen: government by committee what's the what determines the quality of the committee so yes i would have i'd have you go in there and test the quality of the committee not tell biden to say something but that's like that just involves you in the problem of trying to explicate um

[1:19:42] Cameron McEwen: what a medium is because you're talking about uh trying to get out of the Gutenbergian circle you

[1:19:53] Cameron McEwen: That can't be done except by people understanding how the

[1:20:01] Cameron McEwen: Gutenberg Galaxy is a medium,

[1:20:06] Cameron McEwen: but it's not the median.

[1:20:09] Cameron McEwen: And that's not going to be accomplished through talk.

[1:20:18] Cameron McEwen: People cannot understand it through talk,

[1:20:21] Cameron McEwen: will not understand it through talk.

[1:20:24] Cameron McEwen: So if you're able to produce a box that gives people benefits that then as an effect changes their mind,

[1:20:33] Cameron McEwen: that is a possibility.

[1:20:37] Cameron McEwen: But talk.

[1:20:39] Cameron McEwen: is not a possibility.

[1:20:41] Cameron McEwen: 5,000 years of civilization shows that.

[1:20:44] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:20:44] Bob Dobbs: I think that's what I was trying to say,

[1:20:46] Bob Dobbs: is that the people who are in positions to stop us,

[1:20:52] Bob Dobbs: they don't stop us,

[1:20:53] Bob Dobbs: and they don't engage in talk.

[1:20:55] Bob Dobbs: We're not talking.

[1:20:56] Bob Dobbs: We're just implementing.

[1:21:00] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:21:00] Cameron McEwen: well,

[1:21:00] Cameron McEwen: I wish you luck.

[1:21:01] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:21:03] Bob Dobbs: We don't need luck.

[1:21:04] Bob Dobbs: It's a fait accompli.

[1:21:05] Bob Dobbs: We've declared ourselves privately winners.

[1:21:08] Bob Dobbs: We've won.

[1:21:10] Bob Dobbs: So you'll hear about that.

[1:21:13] Bob Dobbs: So after this introductory preamble,

[1:21:17] Bob Dobbs: we go to 123,

[1:21:19] Bob Dobbs: and I look at my sentence,

[1:21:20] Bob Dobbs: and I say,

[1:21:20] Bob Dobbs: what the hell does that sentence mean?

[1:21:22] Bob Dobbs: I don't know what

[1:21:24] Bob Dobbs: I'm saying.

[1:21:25] Bob Dobbs: So let me try to figure out what's going on here.

[1:21:31] Bob Dobbs: So I say,

[1:21:33] Bob Dobbs: we're in a post-tactile,

[1:21:35] Bob Dobbs: post-tactile,

[1:21:36] Bob Dobbs: xenochronous.

[1:21:38] Bob Dobbs: milieu now.

[1:21:39] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:21:39] Bob Dobbs: xenochronous is a Zappa word,

[1:21:41] Bob Dobbs: so that has to be explained.

[1:21:45] Bob Dobbs: We're in a post-tactile xenochronous,

[1:21:47] Bob Dobbs: strange synchronicity milieu now,

[1:21:49] Bob Dobbs: so there would be no difference between the four Aristotelian causes.

[1:21:53] Bob Dobbs: No difference?

[1:21:55] Bob Dobbs: Why do I say that?

[1:21:56] Bob Dobbs: So then I have myself saying,

[1:21:58] Bob Dobbs: the four Aristotelian causes are formal cause,

[1:22:00] Bob Dobbs: material cause,

[1:22:01] Bob Dobbs: efficient cause,

[1:22:02] Bob Dobbs: and final cause.

[1:22:03] Bob Dobbs: The Aristotelian causes

[1:22:04] Bob Dobbs: collapse because there's no sequence or time spaces in simultaneity.

[1:22:09] Bob Dobbs: Simultaneous means it's all happening at the same time.

[1:22:11] Bob Dobbs: The chemical bodies are gone.

[1:22:13] Bob Dobbs: We're now,

[1:22:14] Bob Dobbs: quote,

[1:22:15] Bob Dobbs: ages of observation.

[1:22:17] Bob Dobbs: And I have that in quote.

[1:22:18] Bob Dobbs: Where did that come from?

[1:22:19] Bob Dobbs: So I look back up.

[1:22:22] Bob Dobbs: Ages of observation.

[1:22:23] Bob Dobbs: Is that what Barry Nevitt says?

[1:22:28] Bob Dobbs: Maybe I'll just put it in find observation.

[1:22:34] Bob Dobbs: See where that takes me.

[1:22:41] Bob Dobbs: It takes me to way at the beginning of the book,

[1:22:49] Bob Dobbs: and that's the only place.

[1:22:50] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:22:52] Bob Dobbs: I don't know where ages of observation comes from,

[1:22:56] Bob Dobbs: why I have that in quotes.

[1:22:57] Bob Dobbs: Do you have a clue?

[1:23:00] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:23:00] Cameron McEwen: but maybe you just meant to mark it out as important.

[1:23:04] Cameron McEwen: Maybe you wanted to have single quotes there instead of double.

[1:23:11] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:23:13] Cameron McEwen: But let's not go too fast here.

[1:23:17] Cameron McEwen: When you say something is post-tactile,

[1:23:20] Cameron McEwen: I think what you mean is that it's tactile squared or tactile cubed.

[1:23:25] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:23:26] Cameron McEwen: So you can't very well use the word post and then say that...

[1:23:34] Cameron McEwen: the there's no sequence or time spaces right because a post is a linear term and then you say there is no linearity so right post means doesn't

[1:23:49] Cameron McEwen: mean linear there it means squared or cubed and then xenochronous that has to do with two greek words xenos

[1:24:04] Cameron McEwen: meaning stranger,

[1:24:07] Cameron McEwen: and chronos meaning time.

[1:24:09] Cameron McEwen: So,

[1:24:11] Cameron McEwen: xenochrony has to do with strange time,

[1:24:16] Cameron McEwen: and the strange time has to do with not the overcoming or ablation of linearity,

[1:24:28] Cameron McEwen: but with linearity and simultaneity.

[1:24:34] Cameron McEwen: being in dynamic interplay.

[1:24:37] Cameron McEwen: So

[1:24:39] Cameron McEwen: I think what you're in the process of trying to show is that the post-tactile,

[1:24:46] Cameron McEwen: xenochronous,

[1:24:50] Cameron McEwen: I don't know if I'm saying that right,

[1:24:52] Cameron McEwen: xenochronous milieu,

[1:24:54] Cameron McEwen: that needs to be explicated,

[1:24:58] Cameron McEwen: and you're going to explicate it in terms of engaging with time.

[1:25:03] Cameron McEwen: And with the whole question of ages,

[1:25:08] Cameron McEwen: obviously ages is a difficult word once you're talking about simultaneity.

[1:25:16] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:25:17] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:25:18] Bob Dobbs: Don Theall said,

[1:25:20] Bob Dobbs: well,

[1:25:20] Bob Dobbs: we're in a post,

[1:25:21] Bob Dobbs: they say Newton,

[1:25:24] Bob Dobbs: a post-Newton time.

[1:25:26] Bob Dobbs: And he would mean,

[1:25:28] Bob Dobbs: and I think it's what you're getting at,

[1:25:29] Bob Dobbs: a nonlinear meaning of post.

[1:25:31] Bob Dobbs: We were still dealing with post,

[1:25:33] Bob Dobbs: with Newton.

[1:25:34] Bob Dobbs: Newton was the cliché environment.

[1:25:36] Bob Dobbs: So the transition to the Newton environment is not what is meant by post.

[1:25:46] Bob Dobbs: post-tactile means,

[1:25:47] Bob Dobbs: if

[1:25:48] Bob Dobbs: Theall was saying it,

[1:25:49] Bob Dobbs: in his meaning,

[1:25:50] Bob Dobbs: in his books,

[1:25:51] Bob Dobbs: is that we are in a,

[1:25:52] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:25:52] Bob Dobbs: in a tactile environment.

[1:25:54] Bob Dobbs: It's post-tactile.

[1:25:56] Bob Dobbs: There was a transition that tactility brought in,

[1:26:01] Bob Dobbs: and then once it had established itself,

[1:26:03] Bob Dobbs: then you're post-tactile.

[1:26:05] Bob Dobbs: It's an odd way that he would use the word,

[1:26:07] Bob Dobbs: but what you just said about that the linear version of tactile reminded me of what he was,

[1:26:14] Bob Dobbs: how he was using the word post.

[1:26:17] Bob Dobbs: So I wanted to mention that.

[1:26:18] Bob Dobbs: And you're right that

[1:26:21] Bob Dobbs: I do have tactile squared in the Tiny Note Chart.

[1:26:25] Bob Dobbs: That's in the Kroker quadrant.

[1:26:27] Bob Dobbs: And then I have quark-tuned cubed in the Dobbs quadrant.

[1:26:29] Bob Dobbs: So you're right that if I'm trying to say post-tactile,

[1:26:34] Bob Dobbs: I had forgotten that I had done that with the squaring and cubing process.

[1:26:43] Bob Dobbs: So then I say,

[1:26:44] Bob Dobbs: since we didn't know what was human anymore,

[1:26:46] Bob Dobbs: We essentially moved into a period of silence.

[1:26:49] Bob Dobbs: Ah,

[1:26:50] Bob Dobbs: there's the non-talking.

[1:26:54] Bob Dobbs: We've moved into a period of silence.

[1:26:56] Bob Dobbs: We're implementing our thing in an atmosphere of silence,

[1:27:00] Bob Dobbs: and we're allowed to do it.

[1:27:03] Bob Dobbs: That's what's interesting.

[1:27:04] Bob Dobbs: There seems to be an intelligence to understand,

[1:27:06] Bob Dobbs: well,

[1:27:06] Bob Dobbs: let these guys do this.

[1:27:07] Bob Dobbs: They know what they're doing.

[1:27:12] Cameron McEwen: Within the Gutenberg Galaxy,

[1:27:15] Cameron McEwen: silence is...

[1:27:16] Cameron McEwen: understood as the opposite of talking or the opposite of noise.

[1:27:24] Cameron McEwen: But in the electric environment,

[1:27:27] Cameron McEwen: silence is what is tactility.

[1:27:31] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:27:31] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan said the unnoticed sounds.

[1:27:35] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:27:35] Cameron McEwen: the gap.

[1:27:36] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:27:37] Bob Dobbs: the unnoticed effects.

[1:27:39] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[1:27:39] Bob Dobbs: so that's a good point.

[1:27:41] Bob Dobbs: And I include that in...

[1:27:45] Bob Dobbs: How we're operating.

[1:27:49] Bob Dobbs: We recognize there's some things we're not noticing,

[1:27:51] Bob Dobbs: but we're pretty good at noticing everything because we've been playing with it for 10 years.

[1:27:56] Bob Dobbs: And a lot of strange things have happened with it,

[1:27:58] Bob Dobbs: but we are on top of it,

[1:28:02] Bob Dobbs: it seems.

[1:28:03] Bob Dobbs: There's been a few problems throughout the years,

[1:28:05] Bob Dobbs: but they get fixed.

[1:28:08] Cameron McEwen: Are you talking about technological problems or problems of practical...

[1:28:15] Cameron McEwen: implementation because of communication problems with the people that are in charge of things.

[1:28:21] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:28:21] Bob Dobbs: technological problems.

[1:28:23] Bob Dobbs: Technological,

[1:28:24] Bob Dobbs: instrumental,

[1:28:26] Bob Dobbs: practical,

[1:28:27] Bob Dobbs: whatever you meant by that,

[1:28:28] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:28:28] Bob Dobbs: the parts.

[1:28:31] Cameron McEwen: But obviously that's not happening in Maui,

[1:28:36] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:28:36] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:28:38] Cameron McEwen: there's no possibility of doing stuff like this in

[1:28:42] Cameron McEwen: Maui for many reasons.

[1:28:43] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:28:45] Bob Dobbs: There's a certain counterintuitive environment that you do it in.

[1:28:49] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:28:50] Bob Dobbs: it's not what people expect,

[1:28:52] Bob Dobbs: but there is an environment to do it in.

[1:28:53] Bob Dobbs: That's what's interesting.

[1:28:55] Bob Dobbs: I'll leave that in the realm of silence for now.

[1:28:59] Bob Dobbs: Gutenbergian silence.

[1:29:01] Cameron McEwen: Sure.

[1:29:02] Bob Dobbs: But

[1:29:03] Bob Dobbs: I think that's an example of synchronicity,

[1:29:06] Bob Dobbs: a happy synchronization.

[1:29:09] Bob Dobbs: I didn't know what the heck that sentence meant in light of what you had been saying.

[1:29:14] Bob Dobbs: Then we go down to the next sentence,

[1:29:16] Bob Dobbs: and there's the whole point of no talk.

[1:29:18] Bob Dobbs: Even though it's Bloombergian,

[1:29:21] Bob Dobbs: that's a nice surprise for me that the words,

[1:29:25] Bob Dobbs: and I didn't see them coming,

[1:29:27] Bob Dobbs: fit what we were talking about.

[1:29:29] Bob Dobbs: We're talking about a kind of silence that has to be implemented,

[1:29:34] Bob Dobbs: because the talking that's being done in all kinds of media today is the noise that keeps the...

[1:29:42] Bob Dobbs: The press is printing money,

[1:29:44] Bob Dobbs: but does not solve anybody,

[1:29:46] Bob Dobbs: does not create wealth,

[1:29:47] Bob Dobbs: does not get us out of the poor condition we're in.

[1:29:53] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[1:29:53] Cameron McEwen: So what's needed is what's called a Gestalt switch between one kind of understanding.

[1:30:07] Cameron McEwen: of human experience,

[1:30:11] Cameron McEwen: of history,

[1:30:12] Cameron McEwen: of practical politics,

[1:30:14] Cameron McEwen: of the financial game,

[1:30:17] Cameron McEwen: etc.,

[1:30:18] Cameron McEwen: etc.

[1:30:19] Cameron McEwen: So what can be called the media ecology view of all of this stuff is that everybody has their

[1:30:33] Cameron McEwen: point of view.

[1:30:35] Cameron McEwen: And we need to understand those points of view.

[1:30:41] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:30:42] Cameron McEwen: I guess that's one way of putting it.

[1:30:43] Cameron McEwen: And the problem is that that's just Gutenbergian squared.

[1:30:50] Cameron McEwen: That just embeds us in our problems more and more.

[1:30:54] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:30:54] Bob Dobbs: that's matching.

[1:30:55] Bob Dobbs: Understanding is matching.

[1:30:57] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[1:30:58] Cameron McEwen: So what's needed is silence.

[1:31:03] Cameron McEwen: And as a silencing...

[1:31:04] Cameron McEwen: of that way of understanding into a new way of understanding.

[1:31:10] Cameron McEwen: And that Gestalt switch is necessarily not spoken in any way of understanding.

[1:31:20] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:31:20] Cameron McEwen: Because we're talking about what exists between ways of understanding.

[1:31:27] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:31:27] Bob Dobbs: because I don't watch commentary very little,

[1:31:32] Bob Dobbs: but there's so much of it.

[1:31:36] Bob Dobbs: Carolyn watches different parts,

[1:31:38] Bob Dobbs: so I just have to look over on her screen and she's watching some commentary.

[1:31:42] Bob Dobbs: And they all have the assumption,

[1:31:45] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:31:45] Bob Dobbs: you have the pretty girl and she comes out and says,

[1:31:47] Bob Dobbs: oh,

[1:31:47] Bob Dobbs: tonight we've got Cameron,

[1:31:48] Bob Dobbs: McEwen,

[1:31:49] Bob Dobbs: and Bob Dobbs here.

[1:31:49] Bob Dobbs: They're going to explain,

[1:31:50] Bob Dobbs: they're going to explain,

[1:31:51] Bob Dobbs: blah,

[1:31:53] Bob Dobbs: And there's the big mistake.

[1:31:55] Bob Dobbs: They think by talking something and pretending they're going to get somewhere,

[1:31:59] Bob Dobbs: which they never do,

[1:32:00] Bob Dobbs: and then they let you talk for 10 minutes and they move on to someone else.

[1:32:03] Bob Dobbs: who proposes a topic,

[1:32:05] Bob Dobbs: and then that's talked about and argued about and goes nowhere.

[1:32:08] Bob Dobbs: The big assumption is that they think they're very important,

[1:32:12] Bob Dobbs: the host.

[1:32:13] Bob Dobbs: They have a show,

[1:32:14] Bob Dobbs: and they're going to help us be informed.

[1:32:17] Bob Dobbs: That's exactly what we don't need.

[1:32:19] Bob Dobbs: We really don't need the talking that's going on,

[1:32:23] Bob Dobbs: which used to have a news function,

[1:32:26] Bob Dobbs: but as most people now recognize,

[1:32:28] Bob Dobbs: there's no news in that sense happening in the talking.

[1:32:32] Bob Dobbs: It's almost...

[1:32:33] Cameron McEwen: endless chattering in the dark what's that nervous in the dark um whistling in the dark right you can't take the silence correct but i but i would disagree with you that these people think that they're important they

[1:32:49] Cameron McEwen: get a lot of money and they get a lot of attention uh but um they are unable to see any importance to that and so what happens is you

[1:33:01] Cameron McEwen: You go from somebody like Walter Cronkite,

[1:33:04] Cameron McEwen: let's say,

[1:33:05] Cameron McEwen: who's recognized as some sort of information guru,

[1:33:13] Cameron McEwen: who actually is reading a script that's been prepared by people that nobody knows anything about.

[1:33:21] Cameron McEwen: And so

[1:33:23] Cameron McEwen: Walter Cronkite,

[1:33:24] Cameron McEwen: I don't know,

[1:33:25] Cameron McEwen: let's say that's 1960.

[1:33:27] Cameron McEwen: So here we are 60 years later.

[1:33:29] Cameron McEwen: And everybody knows that even the weatherman,

[1:33:33] Cameron McEwen: let alone the political commentary people or the talking heads behind the desk,

[1:33:39] Cameron McEwen: everybody knows that they are just mouths.

[1:33:43] Cameron McEwen: They're just saying stuff that somebody else has given them.

[1:33:48] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[1:33:48] Cameron McEwen: So everybody knows that there's nothing going on here.

[1:33:54] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:33:56] Cameron McEwen: And the people that are doing it.

[1:33:58] Cameron McEwen: They're doing it just like the guy that's stocking toilet paper in the supermarket.

[1:34:07] Cameron McEwen: Nobody thinks there's any importance to this.

[1:34:09] Cameron McEwen: The only importance is getting the check,

[1:34:13] Cameron McEwen: getting the bennies,

[1:34:18] Cameron McEwen: getting what you need.

[1:34:21] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:34:22] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:34:23] Bob Dobbs: So you're saying,

[1:34:24] Bob Dobbs: I would agree that

[1:34:25] Bob Dobbs: Tucker Carlson and that are in...

[1:34:27] Bob Dobbs: great states of anxiety.

[1:34:29] Bob Dobbs: And you see that more in the entertainment celebrities who don't have a forum every night,

[1:34:38] Bob Dobbs: like Kanye West.

[1:34:40] Bob Dobbs: So Kanye West,

[1:34:42] Bob Dobbs: he feels the need to be a Tucker Carlson or something.

[1:34:45] Bob Dobbs: So he forms a church and a ministry so he can talk.

[1:34:48] Bob Dobbs: And then he does interviews and it gets him in trouble.

[1:34:52] Bob Dobbs: He's a symptom.

[1:34:54] Bob Dobbs: His

[1:34:55] Bob Dobbs: Breakdown is more obvious than

[1:34:58] Bob Dobbs: Tucker Carlson's breakdown,

[1:35:01] Bob Dobbs: or Whoopi Goldberg,

[1:35:02] Bob Dobbs: or any of those people on there who are under incredible pressure to keep yammering every day.

[1:35:08] Bob Dobbs: and pretend that they're getting somewhere.

[1:35:10] Cameron McEwen: They're kind of stand-ins for the state of the world.

[1:35:16] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:35:16] Bob Dobbs: they're stand-ins for the silence that's actually happened.

[1:35:23] Bob Dobbs: So I understand a lot of people don't watch the talking heads anymore after the last couple of years.

[1:35:30] Bob Dobbs: They're moving into silence.

[1:35:34] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:35:34] Cameron McEwen: but there's silence in silence.

[1:35:36] Cameron McEwen: That's the whole problem.

[1:35:38] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[1:35:39] Cameron McEwen: Moving into silence as the opposite of talk is a Gutenbergian move.

[1:35:45] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:35:45] Bob Dobbs: And they're communicating because what they're doing in silence is stocking up on supplies,

[1:35:50] Bob Dobbs: bullets and beans and gold and guns to prepare for a confrontation with somebody.

[1:36:01] Bob Dobbs: That's what they're doing.

[1:36:01] Bob Dobbs: That's how they're what they're communicating in silence.

[1:36:05] Bob Dobbs: We're not doing that.

[1:36:06] Bob Dobbs: We're not preparing.

[1:36:08] Bob Dobbs: for an invasion,

[1:36:10] Bob Dobbs: we are maybe creating an invasion by making a new environment and doing it in silence.

[1:36:19] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:36:20] Cameron McEwen: that's the only way it can be done.

[1:36:22] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:36:23] Bob Dobbs: kudos to you,

[1:36:23] Bob Dobbs: Bob.

[1:36:24] Bob Dobbs: You're doing it the right way,

[1:36:25] Bob Dobbs: says Cameron.

[1:36:28] Bob Dobbs: Right?

[1:36:29] Bob Dobbs: That's what you just said.

[1:36:30] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:36:31] Cameron McEwen: well,

[1:36:32] Cameron McEwen: if you're doing it not through promotion.

[1:36:36] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:36:37] Cameron McEwen: then that's the only way it can be done.

[1:36:40] Cameron McEwen: Lots of times you've asked me,

[1:36:43] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[1:36:44] Cameron McEwen: why am I working away on my blog day after day after day,

[1:36:48] Cameron McEwen: year after year,

[1:36:49] Cameron McEwen: and not trying to be some sort of,

[1:36:54] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[1:36:54] Cameron McEwen: academic guru or some sort of author?

[1:36:56] Bob Dobbs: Some kind of public notice.

[1:36:58] Bob Dobbs: You're not trying to get some public notice.

[1:37:00] Cameron McEwen: Correct,

[1:37:01] Cameron McEwen: because notice is the problem.

[1:37:04] Cameron McEwen: It's not the solution.

[1:37:06] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:37:07] Bob Dobbs: So that sounds like

[1:37:10] Bob Dobbs: Christianity. What I understand,

[1:37:12] Bob Dobbs: the values of Christianity,

[1:37:13] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:37:14] Bob Dobbs: you don't be vain.

[1:37:16] Bob Dobbs: You don't try to draw attention to yourself.

[1:37:18] Bob Dobbs: You do your work,

[1:37:20] Bob Dobbs: and it's almost an act of prayer,

[1:37:22] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:37:22] Bob Dobbs: that

[1:37:23] Bob Dobbs: Carlyle idea of work is prayer,

[1:37:25] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:37:26] Bob Dobbs: I think that's talked about in Take Today.

[1:37:31] Bob Dobbs: It's a meditation,

[1:37:32] Bob Dobbs: and not a lot of...

[1:37:35] Bob Dobbs: interacting with other people is required.

[1:37:38] Bob Dobbs: You see,

[1:37:40] Bob Dobbs: the sociality of people,

[1:37:42] Bob Dobbs: which would be the magic circle,

[1:37:43] Bob Dobbs: which would be the effect of a medium,

[1:37:45] Bob Dobbs: beginning with speech,

[1:37:46] Bob Dobbs: say,

[1:37:48] Bob Dobbs: that's what people are,

[1:37:49] Bob Dobbs: quote,

[1:37:49] Bob Dobbs: addicted to,

[1:37:51] Bob Dobbs: what they are uncomfortable with if they don't have it.

[1:37:57] Bob Dobbs: There's too much communication.

[1:37:58] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:37:59] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:37:59] Bob Dobbs: once

[1:38:00] Bob Dobbs: I heard on CBC in 1970,

[1:38:03] Bob Dobbs: I'll never forget it.

[1:38:03] Bob Dobbs: I didn't know exactly where it was.

[1:38:06] Bob Dobbs: And some panel said,

[1:38:09] Bob Dobbs: was talking,

[1:38:10] Bob Dobbs: some psychologist.

[1:38:11] Bob Dobbs: He said,

[1:38:11] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:38:11] Bob Dobbs: I was on a panel with McLuhan.

[1:38:14] Bob Dobbs: And his answer was,

[1:38:18] Bob Dobbs: no communication.

[1:38:20] Bob Dobbs: We shouldn't communicate.

[1:38:22] Bob Dobbs: And the psychologist says,

[1:38:23] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:38:23] Bob Dobbs: I was shocked by that.

[1:38:25] Bob Dobbs: This communications expert says there shouldn't be any communication.

[1:38:28] Bob Dobbs: But he didn't get the role of silence that McLuhan was referring to.

[1:38:32] Bob Dobbs: or

[1:38:33] Bob Dobbs: The addiction to social interaction.

[1:38:37] Bob Dobbs: 5,000 years of social interaction or what's called a friction-based society.

[1:38:45] Bob Dobbs: With our technology,

[1:38:46] Bob Dobbs: we're moving into frictionless-based context.

[1:38:52] Bob Dobbs: Frictionless.

[1:38:54] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[1:38:56] Cameron McEwen: So you can say,

[1:38:58] Cameron McEwen: you see,

[1:38:59] Cameron McEwen: there's a fundamental...

[1:39:03] Cameron McEwen: difference between two different kinds of fusion.

[1:39:07] Cameron McEwen: In one kind of fusion,

[1:39:09] Cameron McEwen: the difference is destroyed.

[1:39:13] Cameron McEwen: In another kind of fusion,

[1:39:17] Cameron McEwen: difference is acknowledged and is celebrated.

[1:39:24] Cameron McEwen: So the fusion through destruction is friction.

[1:39:30] Cameron McEwen: Fusion through

[1:39:33] Cameron McEwen: acknowledgement and celebration of difference is frictionless.

[1:39:36] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:39:38] Bob Dobbs: And remember in Hot and Cool,

[1:39:40] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan says in the interview at the end,

[1:39:43] Bob Dobbs: first there's fission,

[1:39:44] Bob Dobbs: then there's fusion.

[1:39:45] Bob Dobbs: Remember that phrase?

[1:39:46] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:39:46] Bob Dobbs: First there's fission,

[1:39:49] Cameron McEwen: then there's fusion.

[1:39:52] Cameron McEwen: He said already in 1951,

[1:39:58] Cameron McEwen: I forget exactly which essay,

[1:40:00] Cameron McEwen: I think it might have been the essay.

[1:40:03] Cameron McEwen: moment in landscape poetry.

[1:40:07] Cameron McEwen: But he says in

[1:40:10] Cameron McEwen: literature as in physics

[1:40:12] Cameron McEwen: I'm just saying this roughly but the sentence is something like in literature as in physics what

[1:40:28] Bob Dobbs: do you silence you've entered in silence

[1:40:38] Cameron McEwen: I'm sorry that I'm not

[1:40:41] Cameron McEwen: coming up with the exact phrase here,

[1:40:46] Cameron McEwen: but

[1:40:47] Cameron McEwen: I will in a second.

[1:40:48] Cameron McEwen: So just talk about frictionless technology for a minute.

[1:40:56] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:40:56] Bob Dobbs: our technology is frictionless,

[1:40:58] Bob Dobbs: and all technologies before that were friction-based and therefore entropic,

[1:41:03] Bob Dobbs: and they wore out.

[1:41:06] Bob Dobbs: Ours doesn't wear out,

[1:41:07] Bob Dobbs: so that's negentropy.

[1:41:11] Bob Dobbs: Those are terms that I apply to this.

[1:41:13] Bob Dobbs: Frictionless is negentropy and friction-based is entropic.

[1:41:19] Cameron McEwen: So what you're talking about there is you're talking about a sort of a whole new model of science,

[1:41:31] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:41:31] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:41:31] Bob Dobbs: yes.

[1:41:33] Cameron McEwen: Because what you're talking about is a perpetual motion machine.

[1:41:37] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:41:37] Cameron McEwen: which in...

[1:41:40] Cameron McEwen: regular science is not possible.

[1:41:45] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:41:46] Cameron McEwen: So the sentence I was looking for is,

[1:41:51] Cameron McEwen: in art as in physics,

[1:41:52] Cameron McEwen: fission preceded fusion.

[1:41:56] Bob Dobbs: Ah,

[1:41:56] Bob Dobbs: that's back in 51.

[1:41:58] Cameron McEwen: That's 51,

[1:41:58] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[1:41:59] Bob Dobbs: Wow,

[1:42:00] Bob Dobbs: art and in physics.

[1:42:02] Bob Dobbs: Art and physics.

[1:42:04] Cameron McEwen: Art as in physics,

[1:42:06] Cameron McEwen: fission preceded fusion.

[1:42:10] Cameron McEwen: And so then the key thing,

[1:42:12] Cameron McEwen: which you're also doing on the page we're looking at in your pamphlet,

[1:42:17] Cameron McEwen: is the word preceded needs to be unpacked.

[1:42:23] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:42:24] Cameron McEwen: So it's not a linear preceding.

[1:42:29] Cameron McEwen: It's a synchronic preceding.

[1:42:32] Cameron McEwen: So what it's saying is that the true sort of fusion.

[1:42:38] Cameron McEwen: needs to implicate fission simultaneously.

[1:42:45] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:42:46] Cameron McEwen: And fusion is not the abrogation of fission.

[1:42:52] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[1:42:53] Bob Dobbs: Did you say abrogation?

[1:42:55] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[1:42:55] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:42:56] Bob Dobbs: that came up earlier today.

[1:42:57] Bob Dobbs: That word is used a lot by iON.

[1:43:00] Bob Dobbs: It means abdicating responsibility,

[1:43:02] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:43:03] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[1:43:04] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:43:05] Bob Dobbs: Abrogation.

[1:43:05] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:43:05] Cameron McEwen: so...

[1:43:07] Cameron McEwen: Rogation,

[1:43:08] Cameron McEwen: that has to do with questioning.

[1:43:11] Bob Dobbs: Rogation?

[1:43:13] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:43:14] Cameron McEwen: from the land.

[1:43:15] Bob Dobbs: That's Joe Rogan.

[1:43:15] Cameron McEwen: So they have rogation.

[1:43:16] Bob Dobbs: That's Joe Rogan,

[1:43:17] Bob Dobbs: became his name.

[1:43:19] Bob Dobbs: He's always questioning people.

[1:43:21] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:43:21] Cameron McEwen: maybe.

[1:43:21] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:43:22] Cameron McEwen: I hadn't thought of that.

[1:43:26] Bob Dobbs: So the reason you couldn't remember the quote is you were saying art and literature,

[1:43:30] Bob Dobbs: and that didn't work.

[1:43:31] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[1:43:32] Cameron McEwen: So I knew there was something wrong,

[1:43:34] Cameron McEwen: so I looked up the...

[1:43:36] Cameron McEwen: the quote and then I gave it to you exactly.

[1:43:40] Bob Dobbs: Is that in Interior landscape,

[1:43:42] Bob Dobbs: the aesthetic moment,

[1:43:43] Bob Dobbs: or were you citing another?

[1:43:44] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:43:45] Cameron McEwen: it's in the Interior landscape.

[1:43:47] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:43:48] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:43:50] Bob Dobbs: I'm prompted to say,

[1:43:51] Bob Dobbs: to see what the next quote is I've written.

[1:43:53] Bob Dobbs: We've got the silence.

[1:43:55] Bob Dobbs: Since we didn't know what was human anymore,

[1:43:57] Bob Dobbs: we essentially moved into a period of silence.

[1:44:00] Bob Dobbs: Then I casually say,

[1:44:01] Bob Dobbs: President Richard Nixon called it the silent majority.

[1:44:04] Bob Dobbs: We didn't know what to say anymore.

[1:44:06] Bob Dobbs: We knew speech was obsolete.

[1:44:08] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:44:08] Bob Dobbs: that's what you were just saying,

[1:44:09] Bob Dobbs: that that's a common perception now,

[1:44:13] Bob Dobbs: is all this talking going on at the airport and all around you in the media,

[1:44:17] Bob Dobbs: the TV landscape.

[1:44:19] Cameron McEwen: As we've often pointed out,

[1:44:21] Cameron McEwen: when something like a book or a car becomes obsolete,

[1:44:25] Cameron McEwen: there's more of it,

[1:44:25] Cameron McEwen: not less of it.

[1:44:26] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:44:27] Cameron McEwen: So that's what's going on with when people stop talking in the old...

[1:44:36] Cameron McEwen: They talked more.

[1:44:38] Cameron McEwen: It's crazy.

[1:44:39] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:44:39] Bob Dobbs: We knew his speech was obsolete.

[1:44:41] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan said that everybody was,

[1:44:42] Bob Dobbs: quote,

[1:44:43] Bob Dobbs: deaf,

[1:44:43] Bob Dobbs: dumb,

[1:44:43] Bob Dobbs: and mute.

[1:44:45] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:44:45] Bob Dobbs: it's interesting when you go through the airport.

[1:44:47] Bob Dobbs: There's all this talking going on on the TV screens around the various places where people line up to get on their particular plane,

[1:44:55] Bob Dobbs: and everybody's ignoring it.

[1:44:57] Bob Dobbs: So is the newsreader aware that they're broadcasting in...

[1:45:02] Bob Dobbs: Modern cities called airports,

[1:45:05] Bob Dobbs: millions of people going to them,

[1:45:06] Bob Dobbs: and nobody's paying attention to you,

[1:45:08] Bob Dobbs: lady,

[1:45:09] Bob Dobbs: and what you're saying,

[1:45:11] Bob Dobbs: unless it's something very dramatic,

[1:45:13] Bob Dobbs: like,

[1:45:15] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:45:15] Bob Dobbs: Biden gets up and shoots himself in the middle of a press conference or something.

[1:45:20] Cameron McEwen: But even that,

[1:45:23] Cameron McEwen: people have become used to the manufacture of startling stuff.

[1:45:28] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:45:29] Bob Dobbs: the global theater of the absurd,

[1:45:31] Bob Dobbs: to expect the unexpected,

[1:45:32] Bob Dobbs: they're used to the unexpected now.

[1:45:37] Bob Dobbs: See,

[1:45:37] Bob Dobbs: that's where we've really come to a lot of what McLuhan projected in the,

[1:45:43] Bob Dobbs: quote,

[1:45:43] Bob Dobbs: the future.

[1:45:45] Bob Dobbs: We've arrived at and passed through,

[1:45:48] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:45:48] Bob Dobbs: to expect the unexpected.

[1:45:50] Bob Dobbs: Everybody's doing that.

[1:45:51] Bob Dobbs: We don't need to be told to do that by McLuhan.

[1:45:54] Bob Dobbs: We're expecting the unexpected,

[1:45:56] Bob Dobbs: and therefore it's not.

[1:45:57] Bob Dobbs: Unexpected,

[1:45:58] Bob Dobbs: in a sense.

[1:45:59] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[1:46:01] Cameron McEwen: We're slowly coming to a consciousness of the sorts of problems that need to be solved.

[1:46:08] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:46:12] Bob Dobbs: The natural classroom is happening,

[1:46:15] Bob Dobbs: the correct classroom.

[1:46:15] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[1:46:16] Cameron McEwen: But the problem is that in the 5,000 years since these problems became fairly obvious,

[1:46:27] Cameron McEwen: or at least,

[1:46:28] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[1:46:28] Cameron McEwen: the 5,000 years,

[1:46:30] Cameron McEwen: that just is the time in which we have text.

[1:46:36] Cameron McEwen: Personally,

[1:46:36] Cameron McEwen: I think that consciousness of these problems goes back as long as there have been humans on this earth.

[1:46:45] Cameron McEwen: And nowadays,

[1:46:46] Cameron McEwen: nobody knows if that's 300,000 years or a million years or what it is.

[1:46:51] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[1:46:52] Cameron McEwen: But...

[1:46:55] Cameron McEwen: Um...

[1:46:56] Cameron McEwen: Um...

[1:46:56] Cameron McEwen: Be...

[1:46:58] Cameron McEwen: Just because a few people become conscious of the problem to be solved doesn't mean that the problem gets solved.

[1:47:06] Cameron McEwen: Not at all.

[1:47:08] Cameron McEwen: Even the people that come up with solutions can't communicate them.

[1:47:13] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:47:14] Bob Dobbs: So they can't verbalize them.

[1:47:17] Bob Dobbs: And then they try to demonstrate them,

[1:47:18] Bob Dobbs: and the demonstrations usually don't go anywhere.

[1:47:21] Bob Dobbs: Our demonstrations work.

[1:47:23] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:47:24] Cameron McEwen: good.

[1:47:24] Cameron McEwen: I sincerely hope that works.

[1:47:27] Cameron McEwen: I would just say that it's not really,

[1:47:30] Cameron McEwen: you can't really say that Leibniz or Hegel or Aquinas weren't able to verbalize.

[1:47:37] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:47:37] Cameron McEwen: no,

[1:47:38] Cameron McEwen: they were very able to verbalize,

[1:47:40] Cameron McEwen: and they may even have been right.

[1:47:43] Cameron McEwen: But what they weren't able to do was to communicate in their verbalization.

[1:47:49] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:47:51] Bob Dobbs: they couldn't create a magic circle.

[1:47:55] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:47:55] Cameron McEwen: they couldn't get...

[1:47:56] Cameron McEwen: Their magic circle couldn't relate to other magic circles.

[1:48:01] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:48:03] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:48:04] Bob Dobbs: so it comes to this interesting point of silence.

[1:48:06] Bob Dobbs: So then I said,

[1:48:07] Bob Dobbs: the early McLuhan used books.

[1:48:09] Bob Dobbs: He announced they were not important anymore for him in 1969.

[1:48:14] Bob Dobbs: So he was interviewed in

[1:48:15] Bob Dobbs: Take One magazine,

[1:48:17] Bob Dobbs: a film magazine in Toronto,

[1:48:18] Bob Dobbs: I think.

[1:48:19] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:48:20] Cameron McEwen: But he actually,

[1:48:21] Cameron McEwen: in

[1:48:23] Cameron McEwen: 59, in the Playboy interview,

[1:48:26] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:48:26] Bob Dobbs: that's 69.

[1:48:27] Bob Dobbs: Playboy is 69.

[1:48:28] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[1:48:28] Cameron McEwen: I'm sorry.

[1:48:29] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:48:30] Cameron McEwen: I'm getting mixed up between

[1:48:31] Cameron McEwen: 69, 59,

[1:48:32] Cameron McEwen: and 49.

[1:48:33] Cameron McEwen: What I want to say is that in the Playboy interview in 1969,

[1:48:38] Cameron McEwen: he says that the problem with The Mechanical Bride is that it was produced in a book environment for book people,

[1:48:49] Cameron McEwen: but that he realized around 1950

[1:48:54] Cameron McEwen: that the environment was actually different from that,

[1:48:57] Cameron McEwen: and he had to address a different problem and take up a different stance.

[1:49:02] Cameron McEwen: So he was through with books,

[1:49:04] Cameron McEwen: not in 1969,

[1:49:06] Cameron McEwen: but in 1949.

[1:49:08] Bob Dobbs: Right,

[1:49:08] Bob Dobbs: and then he's got to use words to talk with us.

[1:49:13] Bob Dobbs: That means he's got to use books.

[1:49:15] Bob Dobbs: So he had to go through the cultural processing of them by McGraw-Hill and other publishers.

[1:49:22] Bob Dobbs: When they encountered McLuhan,

[1:49:23] Bob Dobbs: They thought,

[1:49:24] Bob Dobbs: well,

[1:49:24] Bob Dobbs: this guy seems to be saying something that's important and correct.

[1:49:27] Bob Dobbs: We've got to put it into book format.

[1:49:30] Bob Dobbs: So he didn't resist the translation of his work into books for a while.

[1:49:37] Bob Dobbs: And then he just gave it up and let Barry Nevitt,

[1:49:39] Bob Dobbs: Wilfred Watson,

[1:49:40] Bob Dobbs: and the rest of them do the books,

[1:49:41] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:49:43] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:49:44] Cameron McEwen: Even though they have lots to say that actually contradicts what McLuhan would have said.

[1:49:52] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:49:52] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[1:49:53] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:49:54] Bob Dobbs: so he says in 69,

[1:49:56] Bob Dobbs: May,

[1:49:56] Bob Dobbs: June 69,

[1:49:57] Bob Dobbs: so that's right after the Playboy interview,

[1:50:00] Bob Dobbs: I'm through with books.

[1:50:02] Bob Dobbs: So then I say,

[1:50:03] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan actually said,

[1:50:05] Bob Dobbs: I'm through with books.

[1:50:06] Bob Dobbs: He had a couple more to finish with co-authors,

[1:50:10] Bob Dobbs: but that was it.

[1:50:10] Bob Dobbs: He was now making movies.

[1:50:12] Bob Dobbs: He was leaving the Gutenberg Galaxy behind and getting into the Android meme.

[1:50:16] Bob Dobbs: I think he says,

[1:50:18] Bob Dobbs: I've got about six more books to wrap up,

[1:50:21] Bob Dobbs: to finish in that interview.

[1:50:24] Bob Dobbs: Hopefully get them done this year,

[1:50:26] Bob Dobbs: and then I'm really finished with books.

[1:50:27] Bob Dobbs: But he had not.

[1:50:29] Bob Dobbs: Finnish ones that had started a few years before and were taking a while.

[1:50:34] Bob Dobbs: So then

[1:50:36] Bob Dobbs: I go to the Cliché to Archetype book,

[1:50:39] Bob Dobbs: 1970,

[1:50:40] Bob Dobbs: and a blurb on the cover.

[1:50:43] Bob Dobbs: The blurb says,

[1:50:44] Bob Dobbs: With his all-embracing powers of observation,

[1:50:49] Bob Dobbs: Marshall McLuhan traces the creative pathway from cliché to archetype.

[1:50:52] Bob Dobbs: In this,

[1:50:53] Bob Dobbs: the book he considers his most important work since understanding media.

[1:50:58] Bob Dobbs: So there's a sentence that a lot of people never noticed.

[1:51:02] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:51:02] Bob Dobbs: they always say,

[1:51:03] Bob Dobbs: if you want to understand McLuhan,

[1:51:04] Bob Dobbs: read Understanding Media or Gutenberg Galaxy.

[1:51:07] Bob Dobbs: They don't get there's a new book that's more important than Understanding Media.

[1:51:12] Bob Dobbs: And Harold

[1:51:13] Bob Dobbs: Rosenberg, you know,

[1:51:13] Bob Dobbs: the famous New York art critic,

[1:51:16] Bob Dobbs: he promoted McLuhan's Understanding Media.

[1:51:18] Bob Dobbs: But then he was on a panel in 69 with McLuhan just outside New York City.

[1:51:24] Bob Dobbs: And McLuhan finished his talk.

[1:51:26] Bob Dobbs: And so they asked them...

[1:51:27] Bob Dobbs: Other people said,

[1:51:28] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[1:51:28] Bob Dobbs: Mr.

[1:51:29] Bob Dobbs: Rosenberg,

[1:51:30] Bob Dobbs: you like McLuhan.

[1:51:31] Bob Dobbs: What do you have to say about what he just said?

[1:51:33] Bob Dobbs: And he says,

[1:51:33] Bob Dobbs: I have no idea what McLuhan's talking about.

[1:51:37] Bob Dobbs: And he shut up.

[1:51:39] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:51:39] Bob Dobbs: that's because McLuhan had developed a new language,

[1:51:42] Bob Dobbs: the cliché-archetype.

[1:51:43] Bob Dobbs: And that's probably what he was talking,

[1:51:45] Bob Dobbs: you know.

[1:51:46] Bob Dobbs: And no one had heard that before.

[1:51:49] Bob Dobbs: So they went back to incomprehension.

[1:51:54] Bob Dobbs: So then I say,

[1:51:55] Bob Dobbs: from the original book sleeve,

[1:51:57] Bob Dobbs: From Cliché to archetype,

[1:52:01] Bob Dobbs: here's another quote.

[1:52:04] Bob Dobbs: From Cliché to archetype is Marshall McLuhan's most important and definitive statement on today's culture and technology since understanding media.

[1:52:11] Bob Dobbs: It goes way beyond the medium as a message theme into a scintillant study of the process of intermedia action.

[1:52:19] Bob Dobbs: A scintillant study of the process of intermedia action.

[1:52:22] Bob Dobbs: I always thought they were important in that...

[1:52:26] Bob Dobbs: Nobody read

[1:52:27] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan's development after understanding media,

[1:52:30] Bob Dobbs: where he's saying,

[1:52:31] Bob Dobbs: hey,

[1:52:31] Bob Dobbs: it ain't media is the message anymore.

[1:52:33] Bob Dobbs: It's something else.

[1:52:35] Bob Dobbs: So that very little statement I'm talking about is not covered by any

[1:52:40] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan scholars.

[1:52:42] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:52:42] Cameron McEwen: right.

[1:52:44] Cameron McEwen: You're absolutely right there.

[1:52:46] Cameron McEwen: What we have been talking about now for two and a half hours is

[1:52:54] Cameron McEwen: Actually,

[1:52:54] Cameron McEwen: the move from medium is the message to intermedia.

[1:52:59] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[1:53:00] Cameron McEwen: The reason that that is necessary is that as soon as medium is the message,

[1:53:07] Cameron McEwen: then medium has become the message.

[1:53:11] Cameron McEwen: The medium as archetype has become cliché.

[1:53:14] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[1:53:15] Cameron McEwen: So the only way out of the infinite regress that is precipitated there is to...

[1:53:23] Cameron McEwen: study intermediate.

[1:53:25] Cameron McEwen: That is to say,

[1:53:26] Cameron McEwen: the plurality of media needs to be understood.

[1:53:30] Cameron McEwen: And in order to understand the plurality of media,

[1:53:33] Cameron McEwen: you have to understand the border between media.

[1:53:36] Cameron McEwen: And that border is necessarily silent.

[1:53:40] Cameron McEwen: Or if it's not silent,

[1:53:42] Cameron McEwen: then it's just one more message in one more medium.

[1:53:46] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:53:48] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:53:48] Bob Dobbs: So I translate that by saying that's an important new statement by McLuhan.

[1:53:53] Bob Dobbs: And this is when he's saying the medium is the message is out of date.

[1:53:57] Bob Dobbs: The publisher is quoting McLuhan declaring,

[1:53:59] Bob Dobbs: quote,

[1:54:00] Bob Dobbs: this book is way more important than the one you know me for because it gets into the intermediate process.

[1:54:06] Bob Dobbs: That's what you just said.

[1:54:07] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[1:54:07] Cameron McEwen: But let's notice the tension between on 123,

[1:54:14] Cameron McEwen: you're talking about there's no sequence or time spaces in simultaneous.

[1:54:22] Cameron McEwen: in simultaneity.

[1:54:23] Cameron McEwen: That's what you say in 123.

[1:54:25] Cameron McEwen: And now in 124,

[1:54:27] Cameron McEwen: you say that something is out of date.

[1:54:29] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:54:30] Cameron McEwen: those two uses of language are obviously difficult to understand.

[1:54:40] Cameron McEwen: So in a Gutenbergian sense,

[1:54:44] Cameron McEwen: you can say there's a contradiction,

[1:54:46] Cameron McEwen: something's wrong here.

[1:54:48] Cameron McEwen: But in a

[1:54:49] Cameron McEwen: Marconi sense,

[1:54:51] Cameron McEwen: You have to interrogate the two of them together.

[1:54:54] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:54:55] Bob Dobbs: Excellent.

[1:54:56] Bob Dobbs: And what was the other thought there?

[1:54:58] Bob Dobbs: So you're saying...

[1:55:04] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:55:05] Bob Dobbs: I was going to point out that you have to talk both.

[1:55:08] Bob Dobbs: And in that Wyndham Lewis article I sent you,

[1:55:13] Bob Dobbs: the author seems to understand that.

[1:55:16] Bob Dobbs: So if you dare to read it,

[1:55:18] Bob Dobbs: get into it,

[1:55:20] Bob Dobbs: look for that,

[1:55:22] Bob Dobbs: that they get that point.

[1:55:24] Bob Dobbs: You can't drop one for the other.

[1:55:28] Bob Dobbs: So.

[1:55:31] Cameron McEwen: You say in your message,

[1:55:33] Cameron McEwen: in the email,

[1:55:35] Cameron McEwen: you say yourself,

[1:55:36] Cameron McEwen: I haven't read it,

[1:55:38] Cameron McEwen: but I sent it to you.

[1:55:39] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:55:40] Bob Dobbs: that is the person who sent it to me wrote that.

[1:55:45] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[1:55:45] Cameron McEwen: I see.

[1:55:46] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:55:46] Bob Dobbs: they said they've never read it.

[1:55:47] Cameron McEwen: That would be a funny thing for you to say,

[1:55:49] Cameron McEwen: too.

[1:55:49] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:55:50] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[1:55:50] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:55:51] Bob Dobbs: I read it,

[1:55:52] Bob Dobbs: and I thought you should read it.

[1:55:53] Bob Dobbs: But yeah,

[1:55:55] Bob Dobbs: she sent it to me,

[1:55:56] Bob Dobbs: and I just deleted her details.

[1:56:01] Bob Dobbs: And just had the article itself there.

[1:56:04] Bob Dobbs: But yeah,

[1:56:05] Bob Dobbs: I didn't put that title in.

[1:56:08] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:56:09] Bob Dobbs: now we jump from there to Kroker.

[1:56:15] Bob Dobbs: And he's got a book called The Will to Technology and the Culture of Nihilism,

[1:56:21] Bob Dobbs: 2004.

[1:56:24] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:56:24] Cameron McEwen: I think that's mostly about

[1:56:26] Cameron McEwen: Heidegger.

[1:56:30] Cameron McEwen: If I remember correctly.

[1:56:33] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:56:35] Bob Dobbs: he does Nietzsche,

[1:56:36] Bob Dobbs: Heidegger,

[1:56:37] Bob Dobbs: and

[1:56:38] Bob Dobbs: Marx, I think.

[1:56:39] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:56:40] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[1:56:40] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:56:41] Cameron McEwen: And all of them are Germans,

[1:56:43] Cameron McEwen: and

[1:56:44] Cameron McEwen: Kroker doesn't know German very well.

[1:56:48] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:56:48] Bob Dobbs: but Kroker sounds like a German name.

[1:56:51] Cameron McEwen: What's that?

[1:56:51] Bob Dobbs: Kroker sounds like a German name.

[1:56:54] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:56:54] Bob Dobbs: It does.

[1:56:55] Bob Dobbs: He's become his name.

[1:56:58] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:56:59] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:56:59] Cameron McEwen: he's become his name in many different senses.

[1:57:02] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:57:03] Bob Dobbs: So I'm interested in why I placed this quote in that position here.

[1:57:07] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:57:08] Bob Dobbs: And what comes after?

[1:57:13] Bob Dobbs: I do a long talk there.

[1:57:16] Bob Dobbs: I have another quote by Kroker.

[1:57:18] Bob Dobbs: And then I talk,

[1:57:21] Bob Dobbs: and then I have...

[1:57:23] Cameron McEwen: Where's the other quote by Kroker?

[1:57:25] Cameron McEwen: Are you up on 127 already?

[1:57:27] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:57:27] Bob Dobbs: the next page.

[1:57:28] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:57:28] Bob Dobbs: I just jumped ahead to see where it goes.

[1:57:30] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[1:57:30] Cameron McEwen: I see.

[1:57:31] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:57:31] Cameron McEwen: we've got several from the same book.

[1:57:34] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:57:34] Bob Dobbs: and then there's...

[1:57:35] Cameron McEwen: But I don't...

[1:57:36] Cameron McEwen: Don't go too fast.

[1:57:37] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:57:38] Cameron McEwen: no,

[1:57:38] Bob Dobbs: I'm just checking...

[1:57:40] Bob Dobbs: what they are.

[1:57:40] Bob Dobbs: So then notes on Burroughs,

[1:57:41] Bob Dobbs: I go back to 1964,

[1:57:43] Bob Dobbs: to an important article by McLuhan after Kroker.

[1:57:47] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:57:49] Bob Dobbs: And what's interesting about Burroughs,

[1:57:51] Bob Dobbs: he is famous in the

[1:57:54] Bob Dobbs: 80s and 90s,

[1:57:55] Bob Dobbs: the same time Kroker is famous.

[1:57:57] Bob Dobbs: So they go together,

[1:57:58] Bob Dobbs: Burroughs and Kroker.

[1:58:01] Bob Dobbs: So I'm going back up to the first Kroker quote.

[1:58:05] Bob Dobbs: So he says,

[1:58:07] Bob Dobbs: When most assuredly we have finally broken beyond the industrial stage of capitalism,

[1:58:12] Bob Dobbs: finding ourselves either passive observers or active participants,

[1:58:16] Bob Dobbs: but fully complicit in either case,

[1:58:19] Bob Dobbs: see,

[1:58:19] Bob Dobbs: whether you're passive or active,

[1:58:21] Bob Dobbs: you're still involved,

[1:58:22] Bob Dobbs: but fully complicit in either case,

[1:58:25] Bob Dobbs: in the unfolding destiny of the digital future,

[1:58:28] Bob Dobbs: in the vectors of an emergent form of finance capital that through the medium of the digital nervous system and biogenetics

[1:58:35] Bob Dobbs: is reprocessing the classical codes of the commodity form.

[1:58:39] Bob Dobbs: That sounds like moving from software to hardware,

[1:58:42] Bob Dobbs: where McLuhan puts it into quotes.

[1:58:44] Bob Dobbs: We were going from hardware to software,

[1:58:45] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:58:46] Bob Dobbs: on the cover of Take Today,

[1:58:48] Bob Dobbs: and he puts hardware to software in quotes.

[1:58:50] Bob Dobbs: We went through that last time.

[1:58:52] Bob Dobbs: So he's saying biogenetics is reprocessing the classical codes of the commodity form into the flesh trade of surplus bodies and surplus imagination.

[1:59:03] Bob Dobbs: and doing so in a traditional capitalist style that is global only in the sense of monopoly.

[1:59:09] Bob Dobbs: So he's complaining about the Gutenbergian model.

[1:59:12] Bob Dobbs: He's still in charge.

[1:59:14] Bob Dobbs: That's the traditional capitalist style,

[1:59:16] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:59:18] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:59:20] Cameron McEwen: the problem is that he says we have finally broken beyond.

[1:59:25] Cameron McEwen: And then,

[1:59:27] Cameron McEwen: as you say,

[1:59:28] Cameron McEwen: he sees that we haven't.

[1:59:33] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:59:35] Bob Dobbs: I say we're in the world of silence today,

[1:59:37] Bob Dobbs: but you are out of date.

[1:59:41] Bob Dobbs: So yeah,

[1:59:42] Bob Dobbs: this is the problem of language,

[1:59:45] Bob Dobbs: of words.

[1:59:47] Bob Dobbs: You're always going to be contradicting yourself until the actual environment makers show up,

[1:59:55] Bob Dobbs: which is yours truly here.

[1:59:58] Bob Dobbs: We're walking around implementing the new environment very quietly.

[2:00:02] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[2:00:02] Bob Dobbs: parades are going up and down the main thoroughfares,

[2:00:05] Bob Dobbs: distracting everybody from us.

[2:00:11] Bob Dobbs: Did you get that?

[2:00:13] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:00:13] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[2:00:14] Cameron McEwen: that's what you've been saying,

[2:00:15] Cameron McEwen: and

[2:00:17] Cameron McEwen: I've wished you my best several times.

[2:00:25] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:00:25] Bob Dobbs: we're relying on your commentary.

[2:00:27] Bob Dobbs: We'll use this later when we start talking again.

[2:00:32] Cameron McEwen: All I can say is that

[2:00:35] Cameron McEwen: I wait with great expectation.

[2:00:38] Bob Dobbs: Good.

[2:00:39] Bob Dobbs: And I always remind you,

[2:00:40] Bob Dobbs: we also are making breakthroughs on the health level with universities,

[2:00:45] Bob Dobbs: and that's pretty incredible.

[2:00:47] Bob Dobbs: It's hard to say which is,

[2:00:48] Bob Dobbs: they're both astounding,

[2:00:50] Bob Dobbs: both fields,

[2:00:51] Bob Dobbs: energy and medicine,

[2:00:53] Bob Dobbs: that we're doing.

[2:00:54] Bob Dobbs: And definitely I would say that what we're accomplishing.

[2:01:00] Bob Dobbs: is the first new technological reality of the

[2:01:03] Bob Dobbs: 21st century.

[2:01:04] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[2:01:05] Bob Dobbs: the 21st century will be known for certain breakthroughs like the 20th century,

[2:01:09] Bob Dobbs: and the 19th century has their icons.

[2:01:12] Bob Dobbs: Our stuff will be the inauguration of a new century,

[2:01:17] Bob Dobbs: in fact,

[2:01:18] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[2:01:18] Bob Dobbs: if we think that a new century has to be sequentially more significant than the previous century.

[2:01:25] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:01:26] Cameron McEwen: and...

[2:01:27] Cameron McEwen: Of course,

[2:01:28] Cameron McEwen: the presupposition there is that there's going to be a new century.

[2:01:33] Cameron McEwen: I hope there will be.

[2:01:36] Bob Dobbs: There will be for us.

[2:01:38] Bob Dobbs: We're so damn protected,

[2:01:39] Bob Dobbs: nobody's going to nuke us.

[2:01:41] Cameron McEwen: Okay,

[2:01:45] Bob Dobbs: good.

[2:01:46] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:01:46] Cameron McEwen: But it doesn't do any good to be unnuked in a nuked world.

[2:01:50] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[2:01:51] Bob Dobbs: though,

[2:01:51] Bob Dobbs: if we've got our health products,

[2:01:53] Bob Dobbs: we'll be doing fine.

[2:01:55] Bob Dobbs: Radiation won't even bother us.

[2:01:59] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[2:01:59] Bob Dobbs: this is the kind of stuff we say on our radio show.

[2:02:02] Bob Dobbs: We don't hide stuff,

[2:02:03] Bob Dobbs: in a way,

[2:02:04] Bob Dobbs: twice a week.

[2:02:05] Bob Dobbs: We get out there and talk it up.

[2:02:09] Bob Dobbs: So we're not giving up words completely.

[2:02:11] Bob Dobbs: We're not operating in silence completely,

[2:02:14] Bob Dobbs: which would be what you have to do.

[2:02:17] Bob Dobbs: You can't drop the past.

[2:02:19] Bob Dobbs: You can't drop the future.

[2:02:21] Bob Dobbs: You have to include them.

[2:02:22] Bob Dobbs: So you include your contradictions.

[2:02:25] Bob Dobbs: I think Madonna is well-known.

[2:02:27] Bob Dobbs: Back in the late 80s,

[2:02:27] Bob Dobbs: she said,

[2:02:28] Bob Dobbs: I contradict myself,

[2:02:29] Bob Dobbs: so what?

[2:02:32] Bob Dobbs: There's where speech doesn't matter anymore.

[2:02:35] Bob Dobbs: You can't...

[2:02:36] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[2:02:36] Bob Dobbs: go to a store,

[2:02:38] Bob Dobbs: like in the 19th century,

[2:02:39] Bob Dobbs: a general store,

[2:02:40] Bob Dobbs: and buy some stuff,

[2:02:41] Bob Dobbs: and start contradicting the process of communication as you pay for it,

[2:02:45] Bob Dobbs: right?

[2:02:46] Bob Dobbs: It's a simpler world.

[2:02:48] Bob Dobbs: But you can start saying ridiculous statements of,

[2:02:51] Bob Dobbs: I'm contradicting myself,

[2:02:52] Bob Dobbs: and so what?

[2:02:54] Bob Dobbs: When you're not limited to the chemical body world.

[2:02:57] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[2:02:58] Bob Dobbs: Madonna's saying that in the TV body landscape.

[2:03:02] Bob Dobbs: It's a different audience.

[2:03:04] Bob Dobbs: a different reception for her actions.

[2:03:08] Bob Dobbs: So

[2:03:09] Bob Dobbs: I like your point that

[2:03:11] Bob Dobbs: Kroker contradicts or cuts himself off at the past.

[2:03:15] Bob Dobbs: When most assuredly we have finally broken beyond the industrial stage of capitalism,

[2:03:19] Bob Dobbs: finding ourselves either passive observers or active participants,

[2:03:22] Bob Dobbs: but fully complicit in either case in the unfolding destiny of the digital future,

[2:03:27] Bob Dobbs: there's a mistake to talk about a future.

[2:03:29] Bob Dobbs: In the vectors of an emergent form of finance capital through the medium of the digital nervous system and biogenetics,

[2:03:34] Bob Dobbs: he's reprocessing the classical codes of the commodity form into the flesh trade of surplus bodies and surplus imagination,

[2:03:40] Bob Dobbs: and doing so in a traditional capitalist style that is global only in the sense of monopoly.

[2:03:45] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[2:03:45] Bob Dobbs: he ends the sentence,

[2:03:48] Bob Dobbs: but he doesn't get out of the problem of the sentence.

[2:03:51] Bob Dobbs: So,

[2:03:51] Bob Dobbs: he's then going to write another sentence,

[2:03:53] Bob Dobbs: and we'll go down to it,

[2:03:55] Bob Dobbs: and repeat the same paradox.

[2:03:59] Bob Dobbs: We'll do it with the intervening Bob talk probably next time.

[2:04:05] Bob Dobbs: He then says,

[2:04:06] Bob Dobbs: Not politics subordinated to the capitalist axiomatic,

[2:04:10] Bob Dobbs: but a new politics that deals in the political language of chaos theory,

[2:04:15] Bob Dobbs: symbolism and virtuality and perturbations and morphological changes of state,

[2:04:20] Bob Dobbs: a virtual politics that exists only because it is aware of unintended consequences of technology and which rubs the dreams of digital reality.

[2:04:28] Bob Dobbs: against the human disturbances of third world labor camps,

[2:04:31] Bob Dobbs: environmental shutdowns,

[2:04:32] Bob Dobbs: genetically engineered food,

[2:04:34] Bob Dobbs: and the triumph of economic injustice.

[2:04:36] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[2:04:36] Bob Dobbs: that's a good sentence because he's talking about how people have become media ecologists.

[2:04:43] Bob Dobbs: And we look at the effects.

[2:04:46] Bob Dobbs: And if I'm the engineer bringing in this thing,

[2:04:50] Bob Dobbs: then we are looking at effects.

[2:04:53] Bob Dobbs: So he says...

[2:04:54] Cameron McEwen: But you see the...

[2:04:56] Cameron McEwen: The problem is it's not good enough to state the problem.

[2:05:03] Cameron McEwen: Kroker is really quite excellent at stating the problem.

[2:05:07] Cameron McEwen: And his language is very colorful and shows a lot of art.

[2:05:15] Cameron McEwen: He's a very good word merchant.

[2:05:19] Cameron McEwen: But the problem is to see how...

[2:05:26] Cameron McEwen: These problems can be conceptualized in a way that gives an exit,

[2:05:34] Cameron McEwen: that re-situates them in a new magic circle that liberates us.

[2:05:46] Cameron McEwen: So

[2:05:50] Cameron McEwen: Kroker may have some sort of unconscious...

[2:05:57] Cameron McEwen: understanding of what that new magic circle must be.

[2:06:04] Cameron McEwen: But instead of articulating that,

[2:06:08] Cameron McEwen: what he does is articulate the problems of the old system.

[2:06:14] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:06:15] Bob Dobbs: and celebrates good explainers of the old problems,

[2:06:18] Bob Dobbs: like Marx,

[2:06:19] Bob Dobbs: Heidegger,

[2:06:19] Bob Dobbs: and whoever I left out,

[2:06:21] Bob Dobbs: Nietzsche,

[2:06:22] Cameron McEwen: right?

[2:06:24] Cameron McEwen: Yes,

[2:06:24] Cameron McEwen: although...

[2:06:26] Cameron McEwen: I think that

[2:06:28] Cameron McEwen: Heidegger is on a different level from Marx and Nietzsche.

[2:06:32] Cameron McEwen: I think Heidegger lectured many times in the

[2:06:40] Cameron McEwen: 1930s on Nietzsche.

[2:06:42] Cameron McEwen: And his lectures have been published both in German and in English translation in multi-volume works.

[2:06:56] Cameron McEwen: So in German it's in two very big volumes and in English it's in four different volumes.

[2:07:04] Cameron McEwen: And so what Heidegger does with Nietzsche...

[2:07:11] Cameron McEwen: Not only in those lectures,

[2:07:13] Cameron McEwen: his writings on

[2:07:15] Cameron McEwen: Nietzsche could easily fill another volume,

[2:07:20] Cameron McEwen: his essays and other lectures on Nietzsche.

[2:07:24] Cameron McEwen: So what Heidegger does with Nietzsche is more or less what we were just talking about Kroker.

[2:07:32] Cameron McEwen: Heidegger takes Nietzsche both to define problems very well.

[2:07:40] Cameron McEwen: and to point beyond those problems in a way that Nietzsche himself could not see.

[2:07:47] Cameron McEwen: And so that's the same with Kroker.

[2:07:49] Cameron McEwen: Kroker actually kind of implicates the solution to what he's talking about,

[2:08:00] Cameron McEwen: but he does not know that he does so.

[2:08:05] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[2:08:07] Bob Dobbs: And he doesn't know that he knows the guy with the solution.

[2:08:11] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:08:12] Cameron McEwen: there's two kinds of knowing here.

[2:08:14] Cameron McEwen: There's knowing

[2:08:15] Cameron McEwen: Bob with his box,

[2:08:17] Cameron McEwen: and there's knowing the need to explicate a medium in which these problems would become subject to investigation.

[2:08:33] Cameron McEwen: So that was McLuhan's suggestion.

[2:08:36] Cameron McEwen: Kroker wants to go beyond McLuhan.

[2:08:40] Cameron McEwen: The problem with that is it gets into linearity and it gets away from what I regard as the only possible solution.

[2:08:54] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[2:08:54] Bob Dobbs: I'm going to reread the quote because it's a good nostalgic quote.

[2:08:59] Bob Dobbs: So,

[2:09:00] Bob Dobbs: we don't want politics subordinated to the capitalist axiomatic.

[2:09:04] Bob Dobbs: So,

[2:09:05] Bob Dobbs: he says,

[2:09:05] Bob Dobbs: not politics subordinated to the capitalist axiomatic.

[2:09:08] Bob Dobbs: But in new politics,

[2:09:09] Bob Dobbs: it deals in the political language of chaos theory.

[2:09:12] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[2:09:13] Bob Dobbs: that would be the chaos butterfly?

[2:09:17] Cameron McEwen: No,

[2:09:18] Cameron McEwen: chaos theory is a branch of mathematics that deals with breakthroughs.

[2:09:25] Cameron McEwen: So that it deals with the fact that quantity can become quality either through multiplication.

[2:09:37] Cameron McEwen: or through destruction.

[2:09:41] Cameron McEwen: So chaos theory is a way of trying to look at chaotic situations in

[2:09:55] Cameron McEwen: formal terms.

[2:09:58] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[2:09:59] Bob Dobbs: so a new politics that deals in the political language of chaos theory,

[2:10:05] Bob Dobbs: if the chaos...

[2:10:06] Bob Dobbs: If the chaos butterfly is a part of that,

[2:10:08] Bob Dobbs: then that's what we are.

[2:10:09] Bob Dobbs: We're the chaos butterfly,

[2:10:12] Bob Dobbs: what we're making.

[2:10:13] Bob Dobbs: But in new politics,

[2:10:14] Bob Dobbs: it deals in the political language of chaos theory.

[2:10:16] Bob Dobbs: That's a good statement.

[2:10:18] Bob Dobbs: And then he then elaborates symbolism and virtuality and perturbations and morphological changes of state.

[2:10:26] Bob Dobbs: All that is a virtual politics.

[2:10:27] Bob Dobbs: It exists only because it is aware.

[2:10:30] Bob Dobbs: So it exists only because it's aware of unintended consequences of technology.

[2:10:36] Bob Dobbs: So that's like saying it exists only because it is McLuhan,

[2:10:41] Bob Dobbs: and which rubs the dreams of digital reality against the human disturbances.

[2:10:45] Bob Dobbs: That's just another statement of looking at technology affecting humans,

[2:10:49] Bob Dobbs: and which rubs the dreams of digital reality against the human disturbances of what?

[2:10:54] Bob Dobbs: Third world labor camps,

[2:10:55] Bob Dobbs: environmental shutdowns,

[2:10:56] Bob Dobbs: genetically engineered food,

[2:10:58] Bob Dobbs: and the triumph of economic injustice.

[2:11:00] Bob Dobbs: So that is the effects on the chemical body.

[2:11:05] Bob Dobbs: So he's saying that he's being the new politics because he is talking in the political language of chaos theory,

[2:11:15] Bob Dobbs: which would be pointing out virtual causes and then showing the unfortunate effects like labor camps.

[2:11:25] Cameron McEwen: But that's academic media ecology.

[2:11:30] Cameron McEwen: And the reason that that remains locked in Gutenberg.

[2:11:36] Cameron McEwen: is that it remains locked in a description of the problems or as a listing of the problems.

[2:11:44] Cameron McEwen: It does not get...

[2:11:46] Cameron McEwen: to the new language that he sees is needed.

[2:11:52] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:11:54] Bob Dobbs: go ahead.

[2:11:55] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:11:55] Cameron McEwen: the reason that he doesn't get there is that the only way to get there is to enter the maelstrom of the infinite regress.

[2:12:05] Cameron McEwen: So we need a new language.

[2:12:08] Cameron McEwen: What is that new language?

[2:12:10] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:12:11] Cameron McEwen: it's a new language.

[2:12:13] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[2:12:13] Bob Dobbs: it's what we're doing.

[2:12:14] Cameron McEwen: It just goes on and on and on.

[2:12:16] Bob Dobbs: We're the new language.

[2:12:17] Bob Dobbs: If it works,

[2:12:18] Bob Dobbs: we're the new language.

[2:12:20] Bob Dobbs: We're implementing the language.

[2:12:22] Cameron McEwen: Exactly.

[2:12:23] Cameron McEwen: If there is a way of,

[2:12:27] Cameron McEwen: like,

[2:12:27] Cameron McEwen: I'm looking for a way of describing the heart of the problem.

[2:12:32] Cameron McEwen: But,

[2:12:32] Cameron McEwen: of course,

[2:12:32] Cameron McEwen: I have to use words to do that.

[2:12:35] Cameron McEwen: What you were doing,

[2:12:36] Cameron McEwen: you do a lot of talking on your damsel.

[2:12:39] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:12:41] Bob Dobbs: on the other days.

[2:12:43] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[2:12:44] Bob Dobbs: I'm not at work.

[2:12:44] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[2:12:46] Cameron McEwen: But what I see that you're doing is important.

[2:12:49] Cameron McEwen: You're saying,

[2:12:49] Cameron McEwen: well,

[2:12:51] Cameron McEwen: in order to establish a new environment,

[2:12:55] Cameron McEwen: there needs to be a new product that works practically,

[2:13:02] Cameron McEwen: that upsets our very notion of product.

[2:13:06] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:13:07] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[2:13:07] Cameron McEwen: So as I've said many times,

[2:13:11] Cameron McEwen: In our conversation today,

[2:13:13] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[2:13:13] Cameron McEwen: I applaud the intention and I look forward to its success,

[2:13:21] Cameron McEwen: exfoliation.

[2:13:23] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[2:13:24] Bob Dobbs: I was the

[2:13:27] Bob Dobbs: Generation X and younger.

[2:13:29] Bob Dobbs: I noticed in their writings,

[2:13:31] Bob Dobbs: they use the word problematic.

[2:13:35] Bob Dobbs: They're always writing and they've learned in their their Kroker world to

[2:13:40] Bob Dobbs: Find new problems.

[2:13:42] Bob Dobbs: They're always talking about the problematic.

[2:13:44] Bob Dobbs: Have you noticed that word?

[2:13:46] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:13:47] Cameron McEwen: so that comes from the German.

[2:13:49] Cameron McEwen: The Germans have been talking about that for two centuries at least.

[2:13:57] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[2:13:58] Bob Dobbs: So,

[2:14:00] Bob Dobbs: of course,

[2:14:01] Bob Dobbs: these poor kids,

[2:14:02] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[2:14:02] Bob Dobbs: they're looking for the problematic all the time.

[2:14:04] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:14:06] Cameron McEwen: and I wish them luck.

[2:14:08] Cameron McEwen: the

[2:14:10] Cameron McEwen: The way that you get there,

[2:14:11] Cameron McEwen: though,

[2:14:11] Cameron McEwen: is not by endlessly talking.

[2:14:14] Cameron McEwen: You have to get into the problem.

[2:14:17] Cameron McEwen: You have to allow the problem to dominate you.

[2:14:23] Cameron McEwen: That's what people don't understand,

[2:14:26] Cameron McEwen: is that the only possible answer is to quit being the steersman of the process.

[2:14:39] Cameron McEwen: and allow the process to dominate you.

[2:14:42] Cameron McEwen: Nobody that I know is able to step from being the announcer or the steersman of the solution to

[2:14:58] Cameron McEwen: allowing the solution to dominate them.

[2:15:03] Cameron McEwen: And that's the critical move.

[2:15:06] Cameron McEwen: The reason nobody will do the figures

[2:15:08] Cameron McEwen: is that the figures are figures of domination and nobody wants to be subject to them.

[2:15:18] Cameron McEwen: The whole notion of civilization for 5,000 years is of the subject as steersman.

[2:15:27] Cameron McEwen: That's what media ecology amounts to.

[2:15:31] Cameron McEwen: Media ecology is the steersman,

[2:15:35] Cameron McEwen: seeing the different forms of...

[2:15:39] Cameron McEwen: media domination.

[2:15:41] Cameron McEwen: But that does you no good.

[2:15:43] Cameron McEwen: You need to be able to,

[2:15:44] Cameron McEwen: instead of looking at these things,

[2:15:47] Cameron McEwen: you need to come from these things.

[2:15:50] Cameron McEwen: We are always already dominated.

[2:15:53] Cameron McEwen: So it's not a question of seeing the dominations.

[2:15:58] Cameron McEwen: It's stepping into the dominations and coming from there.

[2:16:08] Bob Dobbs: I think that's,

[2:16:10] Bob Dobbs: I have been submitted,

[2:16:12] Bob Dobbs: submissive to the Coldplay project for 10 years,

[2:16:15] Bob Dobbs: so

[2:16:16] Bob Dobbs: I consider that giving in,

[2:16:18] Bob Dobbs: in the way you're talking about it.

[2:16:20] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:16:21] Cameron McEwen: your Tiny Note chart is a map.

[2:16:27] Cameron McEwen: of that process.

[2:16:28] Cameron McEwen: The Tiny Note chart,

[2:16:30] Cameron McEwen: as far as I understand it,

[2:16:32] Cameron McEwen: is a map of dominations.

[2:16:35] Cameron McEwen: And at the end of it,

[2:16:40] Cameron McEwen: you don't announce that you're coming out of the various magic circles defined in the chart.

[2:16:50] Cameron McEwen: You say,

[2:16:51] Cameron McEwen: well,

[2:16:51] Cameron McEwen: here's another,

[2:16:53] Cameron McEwen: the chart represents another magic circle.

[2:16:57] Cameron McEwen: The only way to understand the chart is to come into the new magic circle.

[2:17:03] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[2:17:03] Cameron McEwen: It's not the end of magic circles.

[2:17:05] Cameron McEwen: It's simply a new one.

[2:17:06] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:17:07] Bob Dobbs: And that's indicated at the bottom where it says,

[2:17:09] Bob Dobbs: Waiting for organic bodies.

[2:17:12] Bob Dobbs: The spinning clothing crystals have danced the hexadvertisement.

[2:17:17] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:17:18] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:17:18] Cameron McEwen: So what you're talking about with the 10 years engagement with the technology is a variation on...

[2:17:26] Cameron McEwen: what you were saying

[2:17:29] Cameron McEwen: 10 or 15 years before that.

[2:17:31] Bob Dobbs: That's right,

[2:17:32] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[2:17:33] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[2:17:33] Cameron McEwen: So

[2:17:34] Cameron McEwen: I see you as a person that is,

[2:17:40] Cameron McEwen: you do not mind dominations.

[2:17:43] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[2:17:44] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[2:17:45] Cameron McEwen: You are willing to put on mask after mask after mask,

[2:17:49] Cameron McEwen: and you don't really give a shit about the steering self.

[2:17:55] Cameron McEwen: that is supposedly putting on these masks.

[2:17:59] Cameron McEwen: You're very happy to say,

[2:18:01] Cameron McEwen: well,

[2:18:01] Cameron McEwen: myself can be this mask or this role or whatever.

[2:18:07] Bob Dobbs: Yep.

[2:18:07] Cameron McEwen: And that's good.

[2:18:09] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:18:10] Cameron McEwen: That's a new type of freedom.

[2:18:12] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:18:12] Bob Dobbs: As someone used to say,

[2:18:14] Bob Dobbs: Bob,

[2:18:15] Bob Dobbs: you have a sunny disposition.

[2:18:16] Bob Dobbs: I agree with that.

[2:18:17] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:18:20] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[2:18:20] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[2:18:20] Bob Dobbs: that's very nice words.

[2:18:23] Bob Dobbs: I think you're getting to understand what we're doing here.

[2:18:25] Bob Dobbs: Closer and closer.

[2:18:26] Bob Dobbs: You're getting better at articulating the issues.

[2:18:29] Cameron McEwen: But I think this is,

[2:18:30] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[2:18:31] Cameron McEwen: lately

[2:18:32] Cameron McEwen: I've become a little bit interested in

[2:18:36] Cameron McEwen: Japanese

[2:18:37] Cameron McEwen: Shinto, which is in Japanese,

[2:18:44] Cameron McEwen: Shinto is

[2:18:45] Cameron McEwen: Chinese pronunciation of the

[2:18:51] Cameron McEwen: Japanese characters.

[2:18:53] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:18:55] Cameron McEwen: but the Japanese pronunciation is Kaminomichi,

[2:18:59] Cameron McEwen: and Kaminomichi means the way of the gods.

[2:19:03] Cameron McEwen: So the way of the gods in

[2:19:05] Cameron McEwen: Japanese

[2:19:07] Cameron McEwen: Shinto is to understand the elements,

[2:19:13] Cameron McEwen: so the sun,

[2:19:14] Cameron McEwen: the moon,

[2:19:15] Cameron McEwen: the clouds,

[2:19:16] Cameron McEwen: the wind,

[2:19:17] Cameron McEwen: the earth,

[2:19:19] Cameron McEwen: the plants,

[2:19:22] Cameron McEwen: to understand these forces as...

[2:19:24] Cameron McEwen: dominance,

[2:19:26] Cameron McEwen: right?

[2:19:27] Cameron McEwen: So when we say

[2:19:28] Cameron McEwen: Bob's got a sunny disposition,

[2:19:31] Cameron McEwen: it's not that Bob has the sunny disposition,

[2:19:35] Cameron McEwen: it's the sunny understood in concrete terms as the sun.

[2:19:40] Cameron McEwen: Bob is dominated by that type of disposition,

[2:19:48] Cameron McEwen: right?

[2:19:49] Cameron McEwen: And disposition is an interesting word.

[2:19:53] Cameron McEwen: Bob is not one position,

[2:19:58] Cameron McEwen: but amongst the dispositions,

[2:20:02] Cameron McEwen: the plurality of position is disposition.

[2:20:06] Cameron McEwen: Amongst the plurality of dispositions that Bob can have,

[2:20:11] Cameron McEwen: he is dominated by the sunny one.

[2:20:15] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[2:20:19] Cameron McEwen: I want to learn more about how one thinks.

[2:20:23] Cameron McEwen: from the elements.

[2:20:25] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[2:20:26] Cameron McEwen: That's,

[2:20:28] Cameron McEwen: I can see that this is going to be,

[2:20:31] Cameron McEwen: or I shouldn't say I can see,

[2:20:32] Cameron McEwen: I can sense that this is a direction in which

[2:20:36] Cameron McEwen: I have to go.

[2:20:39] Bob Dobbs: Fantastic.

[2:20:39] Bob Dobbs: Good.

[2:20:41] Bob Dobbs: All right.

[2:20:43] Bob Dobbs: Clear statement.

[2:20:45] Cameron McEwen: No,

[2:20:45] Cameron McEwen: I was just going to say we should probably end there and come back next.

[2:20:52] Cameron McEwen: time to your comments on Kroker right the blue part the blue region okay great talking to you once again cameron thanks a lot same here bob thank you very much you're welcome next time all right talk to you then bye