[00:02] Bob Dobbs: Welcome,
[00:02] Bob Dobbs: this is Cameron McEwen and Bob Dobbs doing episode number 61 in our investigation of what my book on Trump and the tech body,
[00:14] Bob Dobbs: what was it about,
[00:15] Bob Dobbs: what was I attempting to say,
[00:17] Bob Dobbs: and Cameron's helping me make a lot of discoveries about what the book shows.
[00:22] Bob Dobbs: But if you are listening to us in episode 60,
[00:28] Bob Dobbs: I brought up this quote.
[00:30] Bob Dobbs: And this is an article from Rolling Stone magazine,
[00:32] Bob Dobbs: November 12,
[00:33] Bob Dobbs: 1970.
[00:35] Bob Dobbs: A guy named Brent Stilley,
[00:36] Bob Dobbs: S-T-I-L-L-E-Y,
[00:39] Bob Dobbs: he writes on a McLuhan talk,
[00:41] Bob Dobbs: I think in San Francisco.
[00:44] Bob Dobbs: And McLuhan went to some university auditorium,
[00:46] Bob Dobbs: a lot of people were there.
[00:48] Bob Dobbs: It was titled,
[00:49] Bob Dobbs: Marshall McLuhan,
[00:50] Bob Dobbs: Culture Becomes Showbiz.
[00:53] Bob Dobbs: And
[00:55] Bob Dobbs: I don't know how accurate this quote was,
[00:57] Bob Dobbs: but there seems to be a quote.
[00:59] Bob Dobbs: In the article saying,
[01:00] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan's saying,
[01:02] Bob Dobbs: that the author highlighted,
[01:03] Bob Dobbs: when writing was introduced in the 5th century B.C.,
[01:06] Bob Dobbs: it scrapped the old tribal traditions of Homer and Hesiod,
[01:10] Bob Dobbs: but retrieved the private individual man,
[01:13] Bob Dobbs: an ancient form dredged up from way,
[01:15] Bob Dobbs: way back.
[01:17] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[01:17] Bob Dobbs: it's an astounding quote,
[01:18] Bob Dobbs: because generally the word private is a literate effect.
[01:23] Bob Dobbs: So he's saying that the private individual man
[01:26] Bob Dobbs: The literate effect is back there in caveman days,
[01:30] Bob Dobbs: Paleolithic days,
[01:31] Bob Dobbs: so to speak.
[01:32] Bob Dobbs: But we know he doesn't mean the literate effect.
[01:35] Bob Dobbs: So we got discussing it,
[01:37] Bob Dobbs: Cameron and I,
[01:38] Bob Dobbs: and I suggested it refers to the private citadel of consciousness.
[01:41] Bob Dobbs: No,
[01:42] Bob Dobbs: he doesn't say that in Counterblast.
[01:43] Bob Dobbs: He says the citadel of consciousness.
[01:46] Bob Dobbs: He doesn't say private,
[01:46] Bob Dobbs: I don't think.
[01:48] Bob Dobbs: You have that book there,
[01:49] Bob Dobbs: Cameron,
[01:49] Bob Dobbs: you can quickly look it up.
[01:50] Bob Dobbs: But the citadel of consciousness,
[01:53] Bob Dobbs: says McLuhan,
[01:54] Bob Dobbs: is not affected by media.
[01:57] Bob Dobbs: So
[01:58] Bob Dobbs: I was aware of that quote back in the
[02:00] Bob Dobbs: 69, early 70s.
[02:02] Bob Dobbs: I saw this article in 1970,
[02:04] Bob Dobbs: so I would think about this.
[02:06] Bob Dobbs: So I had certain ideas about it.
[02:08] Bob Dobbs: So after we talked about it,
[02:09] Bob Dobbs: because Cameron was still vague on it,
[02:12] Bob Dobbs: he found some quotes.
[02:14] Bob Dobbs: So in a letter to Joe Keogh,
[02:16] Bob Dobbs: July 6,
[02:16] Bob Dobbs: 1970,
[02:18] Bob Dobbs: letter 413,
[02:22] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan says...
[02:22] Cameron McEwen: Page number.
[02:25] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[02:25] Bob Dobbs: this is in the book.
[02:27] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[02:29] Bob Dobbs: letter number 413.
[02:30] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[02:30] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[02:31] Bob Dobbs: page 413.
[02:32] Bob Dobbs: Havelock's preface to Plato shows how the phonetic alphabet scrapped tribal man,
[02:37] Bob Dobbs: but retrieved the primordial role of individual and pre-tribal awareness.
[02:43] Bob Dobbs: Wow,
[02:44] Bob Dobbs: and that's more what I imagined it was,
[02:47] Bob Dobbs: but
[02:49] Bob Dobbs: I never noticed that letter.
[02:52] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[02:52] Bob Dobbs: that was answering my question I had for all these years.
[02:55] Bob Dobbs: about what is this retrieved privacy.
[02:58] Bob Dobbs: So he's saying it's pre-tribal,
[03:01] Bob Dobbs: and he's not saying private,
[03:03] Bob Dobbs: he's saying primordial.
[03:05] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[03:05] Bob Dobbs: the guy may have got the quote wrong in the article,
[03:10] Bob Dobbs: but the point is something is back there that's individual.
[03:13] Bob Dobbs: So that's really important.
[03:15] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[03:16] Bob Dobbs: Cameron,
[03:16] Bob Dobbs: you were saying you didn't understand that quote when I mentioned it.
[03:20] Bob Dobbs: I don't think you knew about it until I brought it up last week,
[03:23] Bob Dobbs: right?
[03:25] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[03:25] Cameron McEwen: I'd read it before.
[03:28] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[03:28] Bob Dobbs: Do you know about it?
[03:31] Cameron McEwen: It's just,
[03:32] Cameron McEwen: and you've actually brought it up a few times.
[03:35] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[03:36] Cameron McEwen: But I've never really understood what McLuhan was getting at.
[03:41] Cameron McEwen: And even now,
[03:42] Cameron McEwen: even though I've assembled a bunch of quotations about it,
[03:46] Cameron McEwen: I'm still vague about what he was thinking about.
[03:51] Bob Dobbs: You had not looked,
[03:52] Bob Dobbs: you did not.
[03:53] Bob Dobbs: This is the first time you found the quote,
[03:55] Bob Dobbs: page
[03:55] Bob Dobbs: 413, in line with this quote from the Rolling Stone magazine,
[04:00] Bob Dobbs: which was a puzzle.
[04:02] Bob Dobbs: And this gives you a bit of an answer.
[04:04] Bob Dobbs: It gives you close-up stuff,
[04:06] Bob Dobbs: right?
[04:06] Cameron McEwen: But that's not the only quotation I found.
[04:10] Cameron McEwen: I found a whole series of them.
[04:12] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[04:13] Bob Dobbs: which you had never noticed these quotes in relation to the Rolling Stone quote,
[04:17] Bob Dobbs: this mystery.
[04:18] Bob Dobbs: So it's a great find.
[04:19] Cameron McEwen: Same as you,
[04:20] Cameron McEwen: Bob.
[04:21] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[04:22] Bob Dobbs: same as what?
[04:22] Bob Dobbs: What's the same?
[04:24] Cameron McEwen: Same as you.
[04:25] Cameron McEwen: I hadn't noticed them.
[04:27] Bob Dobbs: I had not noticed these quotes,
[04:28] Bob Dobbs: no.
[04:29] Bob Dobbs: I didn't know there was anything more.
[04:30] Bob Dobbs: I always thought that was the only statement ever.
[04:33] Bob Dobbs: But you've got to read the letters closely,
[04:35] Bob Dobbs: and there's a lot in the letters,
[04:36] Bob Dobbs: so you miss things.
[04:37] Bob Dobbs: So I haven't read the letters in years.
[04:40] Bob Dobbs: I mean,
[04:40] Bob Dobbs: I look at parts.
[04:41] Bob Dobbs: Anyways,
[04:42] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan to Lynn White,
[04:44] Bob Dobbs: August 17,
[04:44] Bob Dobbs: 1970.
[04:47] Bob Dobbs: I guess you found this in Andrew Chrystall's thesis.
[04:50] Bob Dobbs: Correct.
[04:51] Bob Dobbs: He found this.
[04:52] Bob Dobbs: probably at Ottawa,
[04:53] Bob Dobbs: page 207,
[04:54] Bob Dobbs: because it's not in the letter's book,
[04:57] Bob Dobbs: says,
[04:58] Bob Dobbs: The liquidating of the tribal encyclopedia of the bards...
[05:02] Bob Dobbs: dot dot dot was done by phonetic literacy but there was retrieved something of great antiquity namely pre-tribal metaphysical man these are like the most important quotes ever in McLuhan to me i mean these are tremendous eh what is pre-tribal metaphysical man now in i know in some other letter he
[05:22] Bob Dobbs: says that the 20th century retrieves the metaphysical exploration of greek culture i think greece invented metaphysics sort of
[05:32] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[05:32] Cameron McEwen: well,
[05:32] Cameron McEwen: he obviously he's using terms like metaphysical in various ways.
[05:39] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[05:40] Cameron McEwen: in McLuhan's way.
[05:44] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[05:44] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[05:44] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan really didn't care to define his terms very closely.
[05:50] Cameron McEwen: So he was always just thinking.
[05:54] Cameron McEwen: And then once he had done his thinking,
[05:56] Cameron McEwen: his talking,
[05:57] Cameron McEwen: his writing,
[05:58] Cameron McEwen: he would sort of look back to see if.
[06:00] Cameron McEwen: Anything had bubbled up to the surface.
[06:03] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[06:04] Bob Dobbs: you were saying he would be doing his thinking and then he'd write something out,
[06:07] Bob Dobbs: are you saying?
[06:08] Cameron McEwen: No,
[06:09] Cameron McEwen: I'm saying that thinking,
[06:10] Cameron McEwen: writing,
[06:11] Cameron McEwen: talking,
[06:11] Cameron McEwen: it was all one to McLuhan.
[06:13] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[06:14] Cameron McEwen: And he was,
[06:16] Cameron McEwen: in all of those activities,
[06:18] Cameron McEwen: he was just trying to see if something would bubble up to the surface.
[06:22] Bob Dobbs: And this is a thought that bubbled up that he was interested in because he repeats it.
[06:28] Bob Dobbs: So here you have...
[06:32] Bob Dobbs: A 1970s note in the Global Village,
[06:33] Bob Dobbs: but the Global Village is done in the mid-70s,
[06:36] Bob Dobbs: right?
[06:38] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[06:39] Cameron McEwen: well,
[06:39] Cameron McEwen: the editor didn't bother to be very precise about where the stuff came from and when and all that.
[06:50] Cameron McEwen: The Global Village itself was published,
[06:52] Cameron McEwen: I think,
[06:53] Cameron McEwen: in 88 or 89.
[06:57] Cameron McEwen: 89.
[06:57] Bob Dobbs: Do you know the important note?
[06:59] Bob Dobbs: He was going to put it out in 88,
[07:02] Bob Dobbs: Oxford University Press,
[07:03] Bob Dobbs: but Eric stopped it because Eric was putting out Laws of Media in 88,
[07:08] Bob Dobbs: and he didn't want to be,
[07:09] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[07:09] Bob Dobbs: upstaged by
[07:10] Bob Dobbs: Bruce Powers,
[07:11] Bob Dobbs: who had a bunch of tetrads.
[07:13] Bob Dobbs: So somehow he had to back off,
[07:16] Bob Dobbs: I don't know,
[07:17] Bob Dobbs: based on what legalities or what actions were taken.
[07:21] Bob Dobbs: So he put his book out in 1989.
[07:27] Bob Dobbs: on the inside page forward of something.
[07:29] Bob Dobbs: He has a note saying,
[07:31] Bob Dobbs: this book should have come out in 88,
[07:35] Bob Dobbs: and he signs that note,
[07:36] Bob Dobbs: the date of Eric's forward in Laws of Media.
[07:41] Bob Dobbs: He takes the same date.
[07:43] Bob Dobbs: You could look that up.
[07:45] Bob Dobbs: So it was a little big there.
[07:46] Bob Dobbs: But so the way,
[07:49] Bob Dobbs: I never heard anything about Bruce Powers when McLuhan was alive.
[07:53] Bob Dobbs: But it turns out Bruce Powers was visiting McLuhan.
[07:56] Bob Dobbs: It seems to be in the mid-'70s.
[07:59] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan wasn't doing much in 75,
[08:01] Bob Dobbs: 76,
[08:02] Bob Dobbs: really.
[08:03] Bob Dobbs: So he might have even started working on City as Classroom,
[08:06] Bob Dobbs: but that was slow.
[08:10] Cameron McEwen: And that was nearly all old stuff that was just assembled for the book.
[08:16] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[08:17] Bob Dobbs: you mean City as Classroom.
[08:18] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[08:19] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[08:19] Bob Dobbs: So he now has this guy.
[08:23] Bob Dobbs: at
[08:24] Bob Dobbs: Niagara Falls University or something.
[08:27] Cameron McEwen: Niagara University.
[08:29] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[08:29] Bob Dobbs: and he was apparently former CIA.
[08:31] Bob Dobbs: That came out somehow.
[08:32] Bob Dobbs: Did you ever hear about that?
[08:34] Cameron McEwen: No.
[08:35] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[08:36] Bob Dobbs: and so you see in his book,
[08:37] Bob Dobbs: he's interested in intelligence issues,
[08:40] Bob Dobbs: global empire and stuff,
[08:42] Bob Dobbs: and satellite intelligence.
[08:44] Bob Dobbs: So his interest in intelligence is in the book.
[08:48] Bob Dobbs: He has more of that kind of stuff than anybody else.
[08:51] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[08:51] Cameron McEwen: But McLuhan at the time was also tending in that direction.
[08:55] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[08:55] Bob Dobbs: because that's where it was going.
[08:56] Bob Dobbs: It was post-Watergate and all that stuff.
[08:58] Bob Dobbs: The global theater surveillance was starting.
[09:02] Bob Dobbs: So he was the perfect guy for McLuhan at that time.
[09:06] Bob Dobbs: And so we take the mid-'70s.
[09:07] Bob Dobbs: So you have here a 1970s note.
[09:10] Bob Dobbs: It does not mean 1970.
[09:13] Bob Dobbs: It means mid-'70s.
[09:14] Bob Dobbs: So the quote is,
[09:17] Bob Dobbs: page 98,
[09:18] Bob Dobbs: the electronic society,
[09:20] Bob Dobbs: dot,
[09:21] Bob Dobbs: can become boundless,
[09:22] Bob Dobbs: directionless,
[09:24] Bob Dobbs: falling easily into the dark of the mind.
[09:27] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[09:27] Bob Dobbs: the phrase,
[09:27] Bob Dobbs: the dark of the mind,
[09:28] Bob Dobbs: is the bog of speech in Counterblast before literacy.
[09:37] Bob Dobbs: He talks about the dark swamp bog of speech in a tribal world.
[09:42] Bob Dobbs: Remember that?
[09:43] Cameron McEwen: I have that quote right next to the one you're...
[09:47] Bob Dobbs: All right,
[09:47] Bob Dobbs: so into the dark of the mind.
[09:49] Bob Dobbs: I usually just use the word mind too much.
[09:51] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[09:52] Bob Dobbs: It's too vague.
[09:53] Bob Dobbs: What the hell is the mind?
[09:55] Bob Dobbs: Falling easily into the dark of the mind and the world of primordial intuition.
[10:00] Bob Dobbs: So good.
[10:00] Bob Dobbs: We've got primordial role.
[10:02] Bob Dobbs: Pre-tribal metaphysical,
[10:04] Bob Dobbs: primordial intuition.
[10:06] Bob Dobbs: Then he says,
[10:06] Bob Dobbs: loss of individualism invites once again the comfort of tribal loyalties.
[10:12] Bob Dobbs: That's the electronic society brings back the comfort of tribal loyalties.
[10:16] Bob Dobbs: And we have the loss of individualism,
[10:18] Bob Dobbs: but that's generally seen as literate individualism.
[10:23] Bob Dobbs: But he is saying the dark of the mind,
[10:26] Bob Dobbs: the world of primordial intuition.
[10:27] Bob Dobbs: So you link that back to the primordial role of individual.
[10:32] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[10:33] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[10:34] Cameron McEwen: yeah,
[10:34] Cameron McEwen: but look,
[10:35] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[10:36] Cameron McEwen: the sentence is very interesting.
[10:38] Cameron McEwen: Loss of individualism invites once again the comfort of tribal loyalties.
[10:45] Cameron McEwen: So take out once again,
[10:48] Cameron McEwen: loss of individualism invites the comfort of tribal loyalties.
[10:52] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[10:53] Cameron McEwen: So what he's saying there is that there was a kind of individualism prior to tribal.
[11:00] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[11:00] Bob Dobbs: And that is never talked about.
[11:03] Cameron McEwen: Correct.
[11:03] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[11:04] Bob Dobbs: that's very true.
[11:04] Cameron McEwen: And I know,
[11:05] Cameron McEwen: as far as I'm concerned,
[11:07] Cameron McEwen: the reason it's never,
[11:08] Cameron McEwen: well,
[11:09] Cameron McEwen: first off,
[11:09] Cameron McEwen: people don't read McLuhan closely.
[11:11] Bob Dobbs: They don't even know he said it.
[11:13] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[11:14] Cameron McEwen: but it's also a very,
[11:16] Cameron McEwen: very difficult topic.
[11:18] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[11:21] Cameron McEwen: I have an idea now of what he meant,
[11:26] Cameron McEwen: but,
[11:27] Cameron McEwen: you know,
[11:27] Cameron McEwen: I'm not sure about it.
[11:29] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[11:29] Bob Dobbs: but the...
[11:30] Bob Dobbs: The thing is,
[11:31] Bob Dobbs: when he's talking about electric media,
[11:33] Bob Dobbs: he says mass man is not tribal.
[11:35] Bob Dobbs: So there's the autonomy factor,
[11:38] Bob Dobbs: which I call chip body,
[11:40] Bob Dobbs: TV body,
[11:40] Bob Dobbs: and those things.
[11:41] Bob Dobbs: There's autonomy factors coming in,
[11:44] Bob Dobbs: which means the human is beyond any cultural conditioning or any government institutions.
[11:50] Bob Dobbs: He's a new floating astronaut,
[11:53] Bob Dobbs: cybernaut,
[11:54] Bob Dobbs: going around the planet,
[11:56] Bob Dobbs: even though it's not literally around the planet,
[11:57] Bob Dobbs: but it's in there in your interior landscape.
[12:00] Bob Dobbs: That autonomy,
[12:02] Bob Dobbs: I think he is thinking that's a retrieval of this early pre-tribal condition.
[12:09] Cameron McEwen: I agree with that.
[12:10] Cameron McEwen: I agree with that.
[12:11] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[12:13] Cameron McEwen: I would go a little bit further than that.
[12:15] Cameron McEwen: I would say that this is just my guess.
[12:19] Cameron McEwen: I think that he's thinking about the pre-fall condition.
[12:25] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[12:25] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[12:26] Cameron McEwen: And that we're coming.
[12:29] Cameron McEwen: We're coming again to a crisis point where human beings either are going to retrieve their
[12:44] Cameron McEwen: true inheritance or they're going to fall squared.
[12:50] Bob Dobbs: Would you say fall squared?
[12:53] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[12:53] Bob Dobbs: That's a good one.
[12:57] Bob Dobbs: And people,
[12:58] Bob Dobbs: that's the squared aspect is in my chart,
[13:00] Bob Dobbs: the Tiny Note Chart.
[13:01] Bob Dobbs: So
[13:03] Bob Dobbs: Cameron's picked up on that.
[13:04] Cameron McEwen: I take that from you,
[13:05] Cameron McEwen: Bob.
[13:05] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[13:06] Bob Dobbs: it's an interesting way to talk about it.
[13:08] Bob Dobbs: So now
[13:10] Bob Dobbs: I see this is what iON's all about.
[13:14] Bob Dobbs: He talks about getting back to source energy.
[13:16] Bob Dobbs: And iON,
[13:18] Bob Dobbs: he has this vision of people,
[13:20] Bob Dobbs: the more ascended you are,
[13:21] Bob Dobbs: the more whatever it is,
[13:23] Bob Dobbs: you're not engaged in social communication that much.
[13:27] Bob Dobbs: You don't need people.
[13:29] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[13:29] Bob Dobbs: this is tricky.
[13:30] Bob Dobbs: If you go into the environment of the tech body,
[13:32] Bob Dobbs: it's going to give everybody almost everything,
[13:35] Bob Dobbs: but you'll be isolated.
[13:37] Bob Dobbs: So you've got to figure out how to retrieve,
[13:39] Bob Dobbs: what's the mind for,
[13:40] Bob Dobbs: what's communication for,
[13:41] Bob Dobbs: any kind of communication with others,
[13:44] Bob Dobbs: and how much do you need it if you're feeling lonely or isolated.
[13:48] Bob Dobbs: So that's the dilemma we're in.
[13:50] Bob Dobbs: And so actually,
[13:52] Bob Dobbs: I would say,
[13:53] Bob Dobbs: what did McLuhan talk about?
[13:54] Bob Dobbs: He talked about the retrieval of...
[13:56] Bob Dobbs: pre-literate man,
[13:57] Bob Dobbs: pre-tribal man.
[13:58] Bob Dobbs: These quotes are very important because it brings McLuhan up to today and what the digital environment is doing to us.
[14:05] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[14:06] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[14:07] Cameron McEwen: where did you get them?
[14:09] Bob Dobbs: Where did I get what,
[14:10] Bob Dobbs: the quotes?
[14:11] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[14:12] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[14:12] Bob Dobbs: from a guy named Cameron McLuhan,
[14:16] Bob Dobbs: the long-lost uncle of Marshall.
[14:22] Bob Dobbs: But to think,
[14:23] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[14:23] Bob Dobbs: I got a preview.
[14:24] Bob Dobbs: You found them.
[14:24] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[14:25] Bob Dobbs: that's what we do.
[14:26] Bob Dobbs: We remind each other of stuff,
[14:27] Bob Dobbs: and you go off and look and find stuff,
[14:29] Bob Dobbs: and then you find stuff I didn't know.
[14:31] Bob Dobbs: So this is cohabitation,
[14:33] Bob Dobbs: isn't it?
[14:33] Bob Dobbs: Isn't that what it's called?
[14:35] Cameron McEwen: There you go,
[14:36] Bob Dobbs: yep.
[14:37] Bob Dobbs: So,
[14:38] Bob Dobbs: but these,
[14:39] Bob Dobbs: see,
[14:40] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[14:40] Bob Dobbs: I would say I'm the only person who ever thought about it.
[14:42] Bob Dobbs: I didn't know you were thinking about it,
[14:43] Bob Dobbs: but I would think about this quote,
[14:45] Bob Dobbs: and I kind of,
[14:46] Bob Dobbs: the way we're talking about it,
[14:48] Bob Dobbs: a pre-tribal,
[14:50] Bob Dobbs: pre-
[14:51] Bob Dobbs: cultural thing might be a centered position.
[14:55] Bob Dobbs: I mean,
[14:55] Bob Dobbs: there's all kinds of mythology and Theosophy about Atlantis and whatever's going on back there,
[15:00] Bob Dobbs: if there was a back there.
[15:02] Bob Dobbs: But I never...
[15:03] Bob Dobbs: got beyond just thinking the way I'm talking about it.
[15:09] Bob Dobbs: But these quotes support what I was thinking,
[15:12] Bob Dobbs: but clarify it and even crystallize it.
[15:16] Bob Dobbs: So
[15:16] Bob Dobbs: I'm thinking clearer about it now,
[15:20] Bob Dobbs: reading these,
[15:20] Bob Dobbs: and it will announce that the new McLuhan that nobody noticed is about this retrieval and the...
[15:30] Bob Dobbs: I was just saying on the...
[15:32] Bob Dobbs: The other showed today or the other day that the enlightened ascended person,
[15:39] Bob Dobbs: the aware person,
[15:41] Bob Dobbs: is not dependent on social communication so much.
[15:45] Bob Dobbs: And the fall was into speech,
[15:50] Bob Dobbs: sort of major innovation.
[15:52] Bob Dobbs: And then everybody got lost in speech.
[15:54] Bob Dobbs: And then all the emotional bonding of that led to what he says here.
[15:59] Bob Dobbs: See ya.
[16:00] Bob Dobbs: comfort of tribal loyalties.
[16:02] Bob Dobbs: That's a fallen state in relation to pre-tribal awareness.
[16:08] Bob Dobbs: So
[16:09] Bob Dobbs: I was explaining the comfort of communication.
[16:12] Bob Dobbs: That's what we're addicted to today.
[16:14] Bob Dobbs: It's always been.
[16:17] Cameron McEwen: But it's important to note that words like communication or social activity or something like this have very different meanings.
[16:31] Cameron McEwen: So it's not the case that there's some kind of pre-communication state of humans.
[16:44] Cameron McEwen: It's that communication is fundamentally different then.
[16:49] Cameron McEwen: And what happens is you have a fall from the communications that's native to humans into a type of communication that...
[17:00] Cameron McEwen: they see as profit,
[17:02] Cameron McEwen: but in fact robs them of themselves.
[17:05] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[17:05] Bob Dobbs: it moves them out of the
[17:07] Bob Dobbs: ESP, mental gesture,
[17:12] Bob Dobbs: the phrase on Counterblast on page 23.
[17:15] Bob Dobbs: He talks about the communication before speech.
[17:18] Bob Dobbs: I think he calls it mental gesture.
[17:21] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[17:21] Cameron McEwen: I think so too.
[17:23] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[17:23] Cameron McEwen: and that's another passage that could be added to this list.
[17:29] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[17:31] Bob Dobbs: That's a good point.
[17:32] Bob Dobbs: And the beginning,
[17:34] Bob Dobbs: page 16 or so of Finnegans Wake,
[17:37] Bob Dobbs: Joyce has Mutt and Jute,
[17:38] Bob Dobbs: two guys talking.
[17:40] Bob Dobbs: And I think he's showing the meeting of two individuals,
[17:46] Bob Dobbs: whatever they were,
[17:47] Bob Dobbs: non-tribal,
[17:48] Bob Dobbs: pre-tribal people.
[17:50] Bob Dobbs: And so it's the beginning of effects.
[17:55] Bob Dobbs: Like,
[17:56] Bob Dobbs: they could bond after that.
[17:58] Bob Dobbs: Or...
[17:59] Bob Dobbs: They could bond and then at least all these other obligations and problems.
[18:02] Bob Dobbs: So it's interesting that
[18:05] Bob Dobbs: Joyce begins the wake with two people talking,
[18:08] Bob Dobbs: two people interacting with mental gesture.
[18:11] Bob Dobbs: And it's covered because it's not just univocal.
[18:15] Bob Dobbs: It's multiple language.
[18:16] Bob Dobbs: You don't even know what they're saying.
[18:18] Bob Dobbs: But that's a way of showing mental gesture because it shows a little bit of words.
[18:24] Bob Dobbs: You can sort of guess at what they're saying,
[18:26] Bob Dobbs: what they're matching on.
[18:28] Bob Dobbs: This is really important.
[18:29] Cameron McEwen: Which is all anybody can do in any language.
[18:34] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[18:35] Bob Dobbs: and you know,
[18:36] Bob Dobbs: I like to say,
[18:37] Bob Dobbs: well,
[18:38] Bob Dobbs: these states that you're aspiring to,
[18:40] Bob Dobbs: they're right there beside you.
[18:41] Bob Dobbs: You're already engaged in them.
[18:42] Bob Dobbs: So this way of mental gesture communication is happening in people today always.
[18:48] Bob Dobbs: It always was.
[18:50] Bob Dobbs: But it got overlaid by technology.
[18:52] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[18:54] Cameron McEwen: you can't,
[18:55] Cameron McEwen: you can,
[18:56] Cameron McEwen: you can.
[18:57] Cameron McEwen: lose yourself only to a certain extent.
[19:02] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[19:02] Bob Dobbs: you can never totally lose yourself.
[19:05] Cameron McEwen: That's the citadel.
[19:09] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[19:10] Bob Dobbs: and now iON says that in death you do lose yourself,
[19:14] Bob Dobbs: and that's a fallen state.
[19:16] Bob Dobbs: iON says that dying is not necessary,
[19:19] Bob Dobbs: but people can't take the pain of existence for whatever reason.
[19:24] Bob Dobbs: Maybe they start to fall into these...
[19:26] Bob Dobbs: Technological hypnosis,
[19:28] Bob Dobbs: beginning with speech in that,
[19:30] Bob Dobbs: and so it creates pain,
[19:32] Bob Dobbs: so they,
[19:33] Bob Dobbs: every death to suicide,
[19:34] Bob Dobbs: iON says,
[19:34] Bob Dobbs: so they die,
[19:35] Bob Dobbs: and they go into the guff,
[19:37] Bob Dobbs: the Jewish term,
[19:38] Bob Dobbs: and it's,
[19:39] Bob Dobbs: everybody feels really good,
[19:41] Bob Dobbs: and there's no thought.
[19:42] Bob Dobbs: So that's an aberrated state.
[19:49] Bob Dobbs: And the new metaphysics,
[19:51] Bob Dobbs: which are pretty profound,
[19:52] Bob Dobbs: is that the guff has been canceled.
[19:54] Bob Dobbs: It's not there anymore.
[19:55] Bob Dobbs: So you're forced to live forever in the here,
[19:57] Bob Dobbs: in this situation,
[19:58] Bob Dobbs: but it can expand and not be limited to the 3D world.
[20:02] Bob Dobbs: But you can't die to a comfortable place anymore.
[20:05] Bob Dobbs: So that's another deep,
[20:07] Bob Dobbs: unstated situation that's unique to what iON says.
[20:11] Bob Dobbs: And
[20:12] Bob Dobbs: I find McLuhan,
[20:13] Bob Dobbs: these kind of quotes,
[20:15] Bob Dobbs: shows him groping towards that awareness.
[20:18] Bob Dobbs: what I think iON means.
[20:19] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[20:20] Bob Dobbs: What I project.
[20:22] Bob Dobbs: So
[20:22] Bob Dobbs: I find that's why McLuhan fits into what iON says.
[20:28] Bob Dobbs: Because,
[20:29] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[20:29] Bob Dobbs: once again,
[20:30] Bob Dobbs: the comfort of tribal loyalties,
[20:32] Bob Dobbs: that's a problem.
[20:33] Bob Dobbs: Remember McLuhan says,
[20:34] Bob Dobbs: I'm not into happiness.
[20:36] Bob Dobbs: He says,
[20:36] Bob Dobbs: I'm into suffering.
[20:38] Bob Dobbs: That means being able to take the existential condition of whatever it is,
[20:43] Bob Dobbs: your expanded awareness of whatever the citadel is.
[20:47] Bob Dobbs: It's not obliterating itself.
[20:51] Bob Dobbs: You can by dying,
[20:53] Bob Dobbs: but you don't have to.
[20:55] Bob Dobbs: So these are very profound situations,
[20:58] Bob Dobbs: which I will build a temporary religion and cult on,
[21:01] Bob Dobbs: Cameron,
[21:01] Bob Dobbs: over the next 20 years.
[21:04] Bob Dobbs: I'm just telling you.
[21:05] Bob Dobbs: It's my secret plan.
[21:07] Bob Dobbs: But anyways,
[21:10] Bob Dobbs: that's a great quote.
[21:11] Bob Dobbs: The loss of individualism invites the comfort of tribal loyalties.
[21:16] Bob Dobbs: So then you go to 1954 Counterblast,
[21:19] Bob Dobbs: the original Counterblast.
[21:21] Bob Dobbs: Until writing was invented,
[21:23] Bob Dobbs: we lived in acoustic space.
[21:25] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[21:26] Bob Dobbs: why would he sometimes say acoustic?
[21:27] Bob Dobbs: Why wouldn't he say tactile space?
[21:32] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[21:33] Cameron McEwen: in
[21:34] Cameron McEwen: 54, acoustic space was a new thing.
[21:37] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[21:38] Bob Dobbs: You say he doesn't really get tactility,
[21:40] Bob Dobbs: the 5960.
[21:42] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[21:43] Cameron McEwen: exactly.
[21:44] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[21:44] Bob Dobbs: that fits.
[21:45] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[21:46] Bob Dobbs: that's good.
[21:47] Bob Dobbs: We lived in acoustic space.
[21:49] Cameron McEwen: He was,
[21:50] Cameron McEwen: at this time,
[21:51] Cameron McEwen: in 54 and for years after,
[21:54] Cameron McEwen: he was thinking that acoustic space was a kind of answer to the problems of literate space,
[22:02] Cameron McEwen: visual space.
[22:03] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[22:04] Cameron McEwen: And then he realized that,
[22:06] Cameron McEwen: no,
[22:07] Cameron McEwen: there's just as many problems,
[22:09] Cameron McEwen: they're different,
[22:10] Cameron McEwen: but there's just as many problems to acoustic space.
[22:13] Cameron McEwen: So the whole question is...
[22:15] Cameron McEwen: one of needing balance between the two.
[22:19] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[22:19] Bob Dobbs: he resolves it with tactility.
[22:25] Bob Dobbs: It'd be interesting,
[22:26] Bob Dobbs: if anybody's listening,
[22:27] Bob Dobbs: to see if they can see intimations of tactility in McLuhan's 53,
[22:32] Bob Dobbs: 54,
[22:32] Bob Dobbs: and 1955 writings.
[22:34] Bob Dobbs: Is it in there?
[22:35] Bob Dobbs: Is Cameron correct that he really doesn't spell out until 59,
[22:38] Bob Dobbs: 60?
[22:41] Bob Dobbs: Have you done that research?
[22:42] Bob Dobbs: Can you say you have not found something?
[22:46] Cameron McEwen: No,
[22:47] Cameron McEwen: and
[22:48] Cameron McEwen: I wouldn't even make that statement definitively.
[22:52] Cameron McEwen: In my blog,
[22:55] Cameron McEwen: I have done some tracing of tactility,
[23:00] Cameron McEwen: so I would have to go there and look up when he really begins to think about that.
[23:07] Cameron McEwen: But just off the top of my head,
[23:10] Cameron McEwen: I think it's 60-61 in that.
[23:14] Cameron McEwen: time period when he begins to think more about tactility because he's thinking about vision and hearing needing to balance each other.
[23:24] Bob Dobbs: Wait,
[23:24] Bob Dobbs: just a second.
[23:25] Bob Dobbs: I heard a bong.
[23:27] Bob Dobbs: Go over here and speak.
[23:31] Bob Dobbs: Say some words.
[23:32] Cameron McEwen: Hello,
[23:32] Cameron McEwen: hello.
[23:34] Bob Dobbs: All right,
[23:34] Bob Dobbs: that phone,
[23:39] Bob Dobbs: Carolyn's phone disconnected.
[23:41] Cameron McEwen: Uh-huh.
[23:41] Bob Dobbs: So...
[23:42] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if that stops the recording completely,
[23:45] Bob Dobbs: probably not,
[23:47] Bob Dobbs: but let me get this back in there.
[23:50] Bob Dobbs: It's not good to lose that.
[23:53] Bob Dobbs: We never lose it.
[23:55] Bob Dobbs: So,
[23:56] Bob Dobbs: normally I can hear you.
[23:58] Bob Dobbs: It's not coming through.
[23:58] Bob Dobbs: And I heard the little bonk that one of the phones disconnected.
[24:03] Bob Dobbs: So,
[24:04] Bob Dobbs: just stop this one,
[24:07] Bob Dobbs: reconnect it.
[24:09] Cameron McEwen: Okay.
[24:12] Cameron McEwen: Should I hang on or do you want me to hang up?
[24:13] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[24:13] Cameron McEwen: no,
[24:13] Bob Dobbs: just stay there.
[24:24] Cameron McEwen: Thank you for checking freeconferencecall.com.
[24:27] Cameron McEwen: You're helping people around the world communicate for free.
[24:38] Cameron McEwen: That doesn't sound like a good announcement.
[24:42] Bob Dobbs: Not just a minute.
[24:53] Bob Dobbs: There it is.
[24:54] Bob Dobbs: This recording is...
[24:59] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[25:00] Bob Dobbs: we might miss something.
[25:03] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[25:03] Bob Dobbs: so...
[25:05] Bob Dobbs: Take the speakerphone off.
[25:07] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[25:08] Bob Dobbs: say something,
[25:08] Bob Dobbs: Cameron.
[25:10] Cameron McEwen: Hello,
[25:10] Cameron McEwen: hello.
[25:11] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[25:12] Bob Dobbs: so that's working.
[25:15] Bob Dobbs: Mute.
[25:16] Cameron McEwen: Hello,
[25:17] Cameron McEwen: hello.
[25:18] Bob Dobbs: Good.
[25:19] Bob Dobbs: So,
[25:20] Bob Dobbs: I don't know,
[25:22] Bob Dobbs: maybe,
[25:23] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[25:23] Bob Dobbs: it said the recording is happening.
[25:26] Bob Dobbs: Let's hope it...
[25:26] Bob Dobbs: didn't get disconnected,
[25:27] Bob Dobbs: but it might have got disconnected for a minute or two there.
[25:31] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[25:31] Cameron McEwen: no problem.
[25:32] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[25:32] Bob Dobbs: so...
[25:35] Cameron McEwen: All the good stuff will always get repeated at some point.
[25:38] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[25:40] Bob Dobbs: Often the good stuff gets lost at first.
[25:43] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[25:44] Bob Dobbs: So we're doing this quote.
[25:45] Bob Dobbs: What were we just saying?
[25:48] Cameron McEwen: You were just starting to read the 54 Counterblast.
[25:52] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[25:52] Bob Dobbs: tactility.
[25:53] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[25:53] Bob Dobbs: so...
[25:54] Bob Dobbs: So I can look up on your blog,
[25:55] Bob Dobbs: Tactility,
[25:56] Bob Dobbs: and see what you wrote,
[25:57] Bob Dobbs: see the quotes you find.
[26:00] Cameron McEwen: Sure.
[26:02] Bob Dobbs: So you would say that the myth is that Carpenter came back from Eskimo land and made him more aware of tactility,
[26:11] Bob Dobbs: right?
[26:11] Bob Dobbs: That might have been in the late
[26:13] Bob Dobbs: 50s. Carpenter was up there in the north?
[26:16] Cameron McEwen: He was up there all during the
[26:19] Cameron McEwen: 1950s, off and on.
[26:21] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[26:22] Bob Dobbs: So anytime in there,
[26:23] Bob Dobbs: he's bringing information back to McLuhan.
[26:25] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[26:26] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[26:27] Bob Dobbs: So there's the
[26:29] Bob Dobbs: Williams introduces acoustic space and Carpenter introduces tactile space,
[26:34] Bob Dobbs: we'll say,
[26:34] Bob Dobbs: right?
[26:37] Cameron McEwen: Maybe.
[26:38] Cameron McEwen: I really don't know about Carpenter and tactile space.
[26:42] Cameron McEwen: Maybe,
[26:43] Cameron McEwen: maybe not.
[26:44] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[26:44] Bob Dobbs: somehow I read that,
[26:46] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[26:46] Bob Dobbs: his...
[26:48] Bob Dobbs: Carpenter's description of Eskimo culture,
[26:51] Bob Dobbs: now called Inuit culture,
[26:54] Bob Dobbs: brought out tactile aspects.
[26:56] Bob Dobbs: And remember,
[26:56] Bob Dobbs: he puts out Eskimo realities in 59,
[27:00] Bob Dobbs: that book.
[27:01] Bob Dobbs: And that's probably got lots of samples of tactility in it.
[27:06] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[27:06] Cameron McEwen: that's Explorations 9.
[27:08] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[27:10] Bob Dobbs: And Carl Williams,
[27:11] Bob Dobbs: another guy from Winnipeg,
[27:13] Bob Dobbs: came up with the acoustic space notion,
[27:15] Bob Dobbs: apparently.
[27:16] Bob Dobbs: in the seminar in 54-55,
[27:18] Bob Dobbs: right?
[27:19] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[27:20] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[27:21] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[27:21] Cameron McEwen: At the end of 54.
[27:23] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[27:23] Bob Dobbs: So you have here,
[27:24] Bob Dobbs: 1954 Counterblast,
[27:26] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan says,
[27:27] Bob Dobbs: until writing was invented,
[27:30] Bob Dobbs: say some words again.
[27:32] Cameron McEwen: Aloha.
[27:33] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[27:34] Bob Dobbs: it's still working.
[27:35] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[27:35] Bob Dobbs: until writing was invented,
[27:37] Bob Dobbs: we lived in acoustic space where the Eskimo now lives,
[27:40] Bob Dobbs: boundless,
[27:41] Bob Dobbs: directionless,
[27:42] Bob Dobbs: horizonless,
[27:43] Bob Dobbs: the dark of the mind.
[27:44] Bob Dobbs: There's that phrase again.
[27:45] Bob Dobbs: The dark of the mind,
[27:46] Bob Dobbs: the world of emotion,
[27:48] Bob Dobbs: primordial intuition,
[27:50] Bob Dobbs: terror.
[27:51] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[27:52] Bob Dobbs: you put in tribal question mark?
[27:55] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[27:55] Cameron McEwen: because
[27:59] Cameron McEwen: I was referring potentially back to tribal loyalties.
[28:04] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[28:04] Cameron McEwen: So
[28:05] Cameron McEwen: I was qualifying speech,
[28:08] Cameron McEwen: which is the next word,
[28:10] Cameron McEwen: as potentially tribal speech.
[28:13] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[28:13] Bob Dobbs: And we were.
[28:14] Bob Dobbs: The primordial role of an individual in pre-tribal awareness,
[28:18] Bob Dobbs: so typical McLuhan,
[28:19] Bob Dobbs: primordial can be pre-tribal and also tribal.
[28:26] Bob Dobbs: But then that's okay because you don't give up on the previous condition.
[28:30] Bob Dobbs: It's there.
[28:32] Bob Dobbs: So it's accurate to have it vague.
[28:36] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[28:37] Bob Dobbs: Primordial seems to be pre-tribal.
[28:40] Bob Dobbs: But here you're asking,
[28:41] Bob Dobbs: no,
[28:42] Bob Dobbs: it refers to tribal too.
[28:46] Cameron McEwen: As we said before,
[28:47] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan constantly used words in more than one sense.
[28:52] Cameron McEwen: So you can think that maybe he was not very precise,
[28:58] Cameron McEwen: or you can think that his thinking was very pregnant.
[29:04] Cameron McEwen: And
[29:05] Cameron McEwen: I choose to regard him in the latter way.
[29:08] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[29:08] Bob Dobbs: I see that he should blur the meanings,
[29:12] Bob Dobbs: because it's just...
[29:14] Bob Dobbs: speech or writing,
[29:15] Bob Dobbs: and it's limited.
[29:16] Bob Dobbs: It can't cover the whole situation.
[29:19] Bob Dobbs: So speech is always limited.
[29:21] Bob Dobbs: Thought is limited.
[29:23] Bob Dobbs: So like the wake,
[29:27] Bob Dobbs: it blurs finally where the beginning is,
[29:30] Bob Dobbs: where that leaves off and becomes the middle and then becomes the end,
[29:33] Bob Dobbs: right?
[29:34] Bob Dobbs: These divisions get enhanced by visual space,
[29:39] Bob Dobbs: and they're more vague before that.
[29:42] Bob Dobbs: So
[29:43] Bob Dobbs: I think it's...
[29:44] Bob Dobbs: correct to not be precise.
[29:46] Bob Dobbs: And he's saying,
[29:46] Bob Dobbs: now I can appear precise when I write books,
[29:50] Bob Dobbs: but it's not about just writing books.
[29:51] Bob Dobbs: When I'm talking,
[29:53] Bob Dobbs: then people start saying I'm contradicting myself and it's vague and blah,
[29:56] Bob Dobbs: blah,
[29:56] Bob Dobbs: blah.
[29:56] Bob Dobbs: But that is the different condition than writing.
[30:01] Bob Dobbs: And that's what he's pointing out,
[30:02] Bob Dobbs: the differences of precision in each medium,
[30:08] Bob Dobbs: right?
[30:09] Cameron McEwen: Yes,
[30:09] Cameron McEwen: sir.
[30:09] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[30:10] Bob Dobbs: So you say speech,
[30:12] Bob Dobbs: or McLuhan says speech is a social chart of this dark bog.
[30:16] Bob Dobbs: And you say,
[30:17] Bob Dobbs: is that tribal?
[30:18] Bob Dobbs: So your questions are accurate.
[30:20] Bob Dobbs: You should point out that there's a vagueness or an imprecision here,
[30:24] Bob Dobbs: but then I explain why it has to be imprecise.
[30:28] Bob Dobbs: Dan Marshall McLuhan.
[30:30] Bob Dobbs: Has speech capitalized?
[30:31] Bob Dobbs: Speech structures the abyss of mental and acoustic space.
[30:36] Bob Dobbs: So it structures the abyss.
[30:38] Bob Dobbs: So the abyss is the pre,
[30:41] Bob Dobbs: the primordial condition of the individual,
[30:44] Bob Dobbs: pre-tribal.
[30:45] Bob Dobbs: It's an abyss.
[30:48] Bob Dobbs: Speech structures the abyss of mental and acoustic space.
[30:53] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[30:53] Bob Dobbs: iON goes on about words shape your reality.
[30:56] Bob Dobbs: They're very powerful and that's what they always do.
[30:59] Bob Dobbs: You make realities with speech,
[31:01] Bob Dobbs: so McLuhan includes that thought.
[31:03] Bob Dobbs: Speech structures the abyss of mental acoustic space,
[31:06] Bob Dobbs: shrouding the race.
[31:09] Bob Dobbs: It is a,
[31:09] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[31:10] Bob Dobbs: that's what people need comfort from,
[31:12] Bob Dobbs: right?
[31:13] Bob Dobbs: The abyss of mental acoustic space.
[31:15] Bob Dobbs: It is a cosmic,
[31:16] Bob Dobbs: invisible architecture of the human dark.
[31:20] Bob Dobbs: Theall used to note whenever McLuhan used the word cosmic,
[31:23] Bob Dobbs: it was rare,
[31:25] Bob Dobbs: and Theall thought it as a nod to the Gnostic ideas.
[31:29] Bob Dobbs: to use the word cosmic.
[31:31] Cameron McEwen: Nah,
[31:32] Bob Dobbs: that's not right.
[31:34] Bob Dobbs: Not that he was a Gnostic,
[31:36] Bob Dobbs: but he included the Gnostic idea.
[31:39] Bob Dobbs: He even said to me through the Evergreens that there was some usefulness in Gnosticism or whatever you call that kind of vagueness.
[31:47] Bob Dobbs: It can be used,
[31:50] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[31:50] Bob Dobbs: not as salvation,
[31:53] Bob Dobbs: but in perception.
[31:53] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[31:54] Cameron McEwen: the Gutenberg Galaxy is inherently Gnostic.
[31:59] Cameron McEwen: And the
[32:01] Cameron McEwen: Gutenberg Galaxy contributed a great deal to human destiny.
[32:08] Cameron McEwen: It was McLuhan's whole bent to try to rescue that heritage before it was destroyed by the electric universe.
[32:23] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[32:24] Bob Dobbs: the electric abyss.
[32:30] Bob Dobbs: To the degree
[32:31] Bob Dobbs: Robert Fulford and them say that Marshall created a myth,
[32:34] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[32:34] Bob Dobbs: pre-literate,
[32:35] Bob Dobbs: literate,
[32:36] Bob Dobbs: tribal man,
[32:37] Bob Dobbs: and then literate man,
[32:39] Bob Dobbs: and then electric man.
[32:40] Bob Dobbs: And sometimes people say,
[32:43] Bob Dobbs: well,
[32:43] Bob Dobbs: there's a fall with literacy.
[32:46] Bob Dobbs: So the fall is often a Gnostic idea.
[32:49] Bob Dobbs: So that's where the book puts on the fall aspect of the Gutenberg Galaxy.
[32:56] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[32:56] Bob Dobbs: he has a quote somewhere.
[33:00] Cameron McEwen: We're in a Playboy interview.
[33:01] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[33:02] Bob Dobbs: where he says industrial,
[33:03] Bob Dobbs: he has three phases.
[33:06] Bob Dobbs: He has the fall and then the something else,
[33:08] Bob Dobbs: the sin.
[33:09] Bob Dobbs: Literacy was a sin and industrial man was a fall.
[33:12] Bob Dobbs: Do you remember that?
[33:13] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[33:13] Cameron McEwen: but he brings that up to reject it.
[33:18] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[33:19] Cameron McEwen: He's making fun of himself when he says that in the
[33:23] Cameron McEwen: 1940s, that was his idea.
[33:25] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[33:26] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[33:26] Cameron McEwen: that the...
[33:28] Cameron McEwen: Industrial Revolution represented the fall of man and all this.
[33:32] Cameron McEwen: And he says that was ridiculous.
[33:35] Cameron McEwen: And
[33:36] Cameron McEwen: I had to become a student and give up all that stuff.
[33:40] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[33:41] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[33:42] Bob Dobbs: So speech is a cosmic invisible architecture of the human dark,
[33:51] Bob Dobbs: dot,
[33:52] Bob Dobbs: Radio returns us to the dark of the mind,
[33:54] Bob Dobbs: to the invasions from Mars and Orson Welles.
[33:58] Bob Dobbs: It mechanizes the well of loneliness that is pure.
[34:01] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[34:01] Bob Dobbs: you're putting in pure.
[34:02] Bob Dobbs: That is acoustic space.
[34:04] Bob Dobbs: The human heartthrob put on a PA system provides a well of loneliness in which anyone can drown.
[34:11] Bob Dobbs: So pre-tribal individual citadel conditions is about whether you're lonely or not.
[34:24] Bob Dobbs: And the Emerald tablets are...
[34:28] Bob Dobbs: iON says the fountain of all religions come from the emerald tablets,
[34:31] Bob Dobbs: which were done 32,000 years B.C.,
[34:34] Bob Dobbs: B.C.E.
[34:36] Bob Dobbs: That's the message to the little man,
[34:38] Bob Dobbs: how to get out of his loneliness.
[34:40] Bob Dobbs: So we wouldn't know where the emotion of loneliness came from,
[34:43] Bob Dobbs: unless it was just an incompleteness that a person,
[34:48] Bob Dobbs: a being of that era felt.
[34:50] Bob Dobbs: So anyways,
[34:51] Bob Dobbs: I'm just throwing in what I think from iON about these things.
[34:56] Bob Dobbs: These quotes are very familiar to me.
[34:58] Bob Dobbs: I'm telling you how I add to it.
[35:03] Cameron McEwen: I think that it's accurate to say that what McLuhan is doing in all of these passages is to set up a kind of difference
[35:19] Cameron McEwen: within human beings.
[35:22] Cameron McEwen: A difference regarding,
[35:24] Cameron McEwen: for example,
[35:25] Cameron McEwen: two different kinds of loneliness.
[35:28] Cameron McEwen: And...
[35:29] Cameron McEwen: One kind of loneliness leads to what he calls the comfort of tribal loyalties,
[35:35] Cameron McEwen: which amounts to a kind of fall because it's an attempt to get away from loneliness that is in fact inherent to human beings.
[35:49] Cameron McEwen: So unless loneliness were divided between a loneliness that is what human beings are,
[35:58] Cameron McEwen: And at the same time is what human beings largely reject.
[36:04] Cameron McEwen: Unless loneliness were divided like that,
[36:07] Cameron McEwen: then you wouldn't have the genesis of history.
[36:10] Cameron McEwen: And it's not just loneliness is like that.
[36:13] Cameron McEwen: The abyss is like that.
[36:15] Cameron McEwen: The,
[36:19] Cameron McEwen: what are the things he says here?
[36:23] Cameron McEwen: Metaphysical man is like that.
[36:25] Cameron McEwen: Divided into these two pieces.
[36:29] Cameron McEwen: or these two forces,
[36:32] Cameron McEwen: one of which is inalienable to humans,
[36:37] Cameron McEwen: and the other of which humans are always trying to escape from.
[36:43] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[36:43] Bob Dobbs: that's very important.
[36:44] Bob Dobbs: Well said,
[36:45] Bob Dobbs: and that gives us a clue to what metaphysical man is.
[36:49] Bob Dobbs: So then you say that,
[36:51] Bob Dobbs: so then you come in with your thoughts,
[36:52] Bob Dobbs: and you go,
[36:53] Bob Dobbs: some,
[36:54] Bob Dobbs: or,
[36:54] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[36:54] Bob Dobbs: how do you...
[36:56] Bob Dobbs: How do you wrap this up?
[36:57] Bob Dobbs: So you say individual and pre-tribal awareness equals metaphysical man,
[37:03] Bob Dobbs: which is what I was doing earlier when I was discovering the quotes.
[37:05] Bob Dobbs: I was saying,
[37:06] Bob Dobbs: hey,
[37:06] Bob Dobbs: that's metaphysical man.
[37:07] Bob Dobbs: So you come up with the same point.
[37:09] Bob Dobbs: Equals primordial intuition,
[37:12] Bob Dobbs: equals individualism,
[37:13] Bob Dobbs: equals the dark of the mind,
[37:15] Bob Dobbs: equals the world of emotion,
[37:17] Bob Dobbs: primordial intuition and terror,
[37:20] Bob Dobbs: equals the human dark,
[37:21] Bob Dobbs: equals the well of loneliness,
[37:23] Bob Dobbs: equals the human heartthrob.
[37:25] Bob Dobbs: Equals the point in which anyone can drown?
[37:29] Bob Dobbs: The question there,
[37:31] Bob Dobbs: where all of this is a question,
[37:32] Bob Dobbs: in which anyone can drown.
[37:34] Bob Dobbs: Then you say the Gutenberg Galaxy retrieves this individualism when it eventually finds that the subject is an empty fiction.
[37:42] Bob Dobbs: You have after subject in brackets,
[37:44] Bob Dobbs: its subject.
[37:45] Cameron McEwen: So the Gutenberg Galaxy subject.
[37:48] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[37:49] Bob Dobbs: the Gutenberg Galaxy retrieves its individualism when it eventually finds that the subject,
[37:54] Bob Dobbs: its subject,
[37:57] Bob Dobbs: is an empty fiction.
[37:59] Bob Dobbs: So is the subject a literate effect or the original individual effect?
[38:05] Bob Dobbs: What is that?
[38:05] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[38:05] Cameron McEwen: again,
[38:06] Cameron McEwen: you have the division.
[38:08] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[38:09] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[38:11] Cameron McEwen: The whole motor at work,
[38:14] Cameron McEwen: it seems to me in these quotations,
[38:16] Cameron McEwen: is that all of these things are at least two.
[38:20] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[38:22] Cameron McEwen: And trying to understand what's going on in history.
[38:26] Cameron McEwen: amounts to trying to understand how these doubles react with and against each other.
[38:36] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[38:36] Bob Dobbs: and you know,
[38:36] Bob Dobbs: Lewis said he wasn't into oneness,
[38:38] Bob Dobbs: he was into two-ness.
[38:39] Bob Dobbs: He understood that.
[38:41] Bob Dobbs: And
[38:42] Bob Dobbs: iON says from the very,
[38:43] Bob Dobbs: very beginning,
[38:44] Bob Dobbs: first talking to it,
[38:45] Bob Dobbs: that there was always two conversations to every situation.
[38:49] Bob Dobbs: Two conversations.
[38:50] Bob Dobbs: That's the doubleness that's going on always in the human condition.
[38:55] Bob Dobbs: It's an aspect of self-awareness,
[38:57] Bob Dobbs: right?
[38:58] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.
[38:59] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[39:00] Bob Dobbs: So the galaxy retrieves its individualism when it eventually finds...
[39:05] Bob Dobbs: that the subject is an empty fiction.
[39:07] Bob Dobbs: Does it find that its individualism that's retrieved is an empty fiction?
[39:12] Cameron McEwen: Definitely.
[39:13] Cameron McEwen: That's what happens with Nietzsche,
[39:15] Cameron McEwen: for example.
[39:17] Cameron McEwen: It turns out that the subject which determines,
[39:26] Cameron McEwen: for example,
[39:26] Cameron McEwen: when a poem is finished or when an artwork is finished,
[39:33] Cameron McEwen: uh...
[39:34] Cameron McEwen: with
[39:34] Cameron McEwen: Nietzsche and then especially with Beckett,
[39:37] Cameron McEwen: you have a questioning of,
[39:40] Cameron McEwen: okay,
[39:41] Cameron McEwen: if the subject needs to determine that the artwork is finished,
[39:46] Cameron McEwen: does the subject also determine when it knows the subject?
[39:51] Cameron McEwen: And of course,
[39:52] Cameron McEwen: that's ridiculous,
[39:53] Cameron McEwen: right?
[39:54] Cameron McEwen: Because the subject is on both sides of the equation.
[39:58] Cameron McEwen: And the subject cannot guarantee its own reality.
[40:04] Cameron McEwen: And so the dynamic of the Gutenberg Galaxy destroys the
[40:11] Cameron McEwen: Gutenberg Galaxy notion of the subject.
[40:15] Bob Dobbs: So is that the mass effect of the printing press,
[40:18] Bob Dobbs: or is it the electric environment that does that?
[40:22] Cameron McEwen: No.
[40:22] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[40:22] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[40:23] Cameron McEwen: the electric environment is the realization of that loss of subject.
[40:30] Cameron McEwen: The Gutenberg Galaxy subject is the subject of...
[40:34] Cameron McEwen: perspective.
[40:36] Cameron McEwen: So when,
[40:37] Cameron McEwen: and its perspective comes to a point.
[40:42] Cameron McEwen: So the Gutenberg Galaxy is really the search for the undivided point.
[40:50] Cameron McEwen: And the electricity is structured by tactility for
[40:56] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan. So there is no point.
[40:59] Cameron McEwen: And what electricity realizes
[41:04] Cameron McEwen: is that the point subject of the Gutenberg Galaxy is not.
[41:11] Cameron McEwen: It's nothing.
[41:12] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[41:12] Bob Dobbs: So you're saying the
[41:14] Bob Dobbs: Gutenberg era,
[41:15] Bob Dobbs: there's this confused individualism that doesn't get out of its dilemmas until the electric age swaps them.
[41:23] Bob Dobbs: That's the...
[41:24] Cameron McEwen: Correct.
[41:25] Cameron McEwen: But it gets out of the dilemma by completely abrogating that whole idea of subject.
[41:31] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[41:32] Cameron McEwen: And electricity,
[41:33] Cameron McEwen: like magnetism,
[41:34] Cameron McEwen: is inherently bipolar.
[41:38] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[41:38] Bob Dobbs: So then the question becomes,
[41:44] Bob Dobbs: how much can you retrieve the individualism of the primordial or the illiterate individual?
[41:50] Bob Dobbs: Correct.
[41:51] Bob Dobbs: That's where Marshall McLuhan gets into his mediocrity,
[41:53] Bob Dobbs: the balancing of that.
[41:54] Bob Dobbs: You don't have to be totally obliterated,
[41:56] Bob Dobbs: maybe.
[41:57] Bob Dobbs: That was his ongoing question.
[42:01] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely,
[42:01] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.
[42:02] Cameron McEwen: So although the electric realizes the obliteration of the subject,
[42:09] Cameron McEwen: the electric also shouldn't be taken by itself.
[42:16] Cameron McEwen: Taking the electric by itself just swamps everything.
[42:20] Cameron McEwen: So McLuhan wants to know,
[42:21] Cameron McEwen: how is it possible to retain these aspects of the past that are essential?
[42:29] Cameron McEwen: And so he says the goal is to marry the moderns and the ancients.
[42:35] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[42:35] Bob Dobbs: and the ancients can mean pre-literate,
[42:40] Bob Dobbs: pre-tribal.
[42:41] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[42:41] Cameron McEwen: it could mean there's a whole bunch of ancients.
[42:44] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[42:45] Bob Dobbs: so then this is where McLuhan is,
[42:47] Bob Dobbs: quote,
[42:48] Bob Dobbs: a saint in the Catholic Church.
[42:50] Bob Dobbs: He knows there's a new problem,
[42:53] Bob Dobbs: and he is really the only one groping or trying to say,
[42:57] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[42:57] Bob Dobbs: God.
[42:57] Bob Dobbs: there might be a way to resolve this,
[42:59] Bob Dobbs: otherwise the church is over.
[43:01] Bob Dobbs: No more Christianity,
[43:04] Bob Dobbs: right?
[43:04] Bob Dobbs: That's this question he posed to people.
[43:06] Bob Dobbs: They didn't know he was doing that,
[43:08] Bob Dobbs: but study,
[43:09] Bob Dobbs: you eventually see that's what he's really,
[43:12] Bob Dobbs: really an important anti-environment to the numbness of the church,
[43:18] Bob Dobbs: of what Christians were going through.
[43:21] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[43:22] Cameron McEwen: so when McLuhan converts in 37,
[43:25] Cameron McEwen: And when he continues as a Catholic for the rest of his life,
[43:30] Cameron McEwen: one of the things he's saying is that he was attempting to live this marriage between the ancient and the modern.
[43:39] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[43:40] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[43:41] Cameron McEwen: And that he thought that the life of the Church consisted in that movement.
[43:47] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[43:49] Cameron McEwen: Did you make the noise on the phone?
[43:53] Bob Dobbs: What about the noise?
[43:54] Cameron McEwen: There was a noise like...
[43:56] Cameron McEwen: A click.
[43:57] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[43:58] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[43:58] Bob Dobbs: no,
[43:58] Bob Dobbs: it didn't...
[43:59] Bob Dobbs: It's a different sound.
[44:00] Bob Dobbs: It's not the bong.
[44:02] Bob Dobbs: It's still there.
[44:03] Bob Dobbs: Everything's still connected.
[44:04] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[44:05] Cameron McEwen: okay.
[44:05] Bob Dobbs: But it's good that we monitor that because,
[44:08] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[44:08] Bob Dobbs: a couple years ago when we lost the show,
[44:10] Bob Dobbs: it was because we didn't catch the bong.
[44:13] Cameron McEwen: Correct.
[44:14] Bob Dobbs: And so that's why we have to have three phones.
[44:18] Bob Dobbs: So this is what we're talking about.
[44:23] Bob Dobbs: It's very important.
[44:24] Bob Dobbs: I don't think any other McLuhanites have ever said this that I know of.
[44:28] Bob Dobbs: They might have said it somewhere in their private conversations,
[44:31] Bob Dobbs: a bunch of professors or something.
[44:34] Bob Dobbs: or maybe some artist,
[44:35] Bob Dobbs: but this is the most interesting point of
[44:39] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan's Catholicism.
[44:41] Bob Dobbs: He was really consciously,
[44:43] Bob Dobbs: responsibly saying,
[44:45] Bob Dobbs: we've got an issue here.
[44:47] Bob Dobbs: And you can read it in the Book of Revelation.
[44:49] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[44:49] Bob Dobbs: it's the Armageddon,
[44:51] Bob Dobbs: the apocalypse,
[44:51] Bob Dobbs: and all that stuff,
[44:53] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[44:53] Bob Dobbs: on a personal level.
[44:55] Bob Dobbs: So what we're saying is really important to understand why George Thompson's...
[45:03] Bob Dobbs: and say,
[45:04] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan's not a Catholic.
[45:05] Bob Dobbs: He's not a Catholic.
[45:07] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[45:07] Bob Dobbs: but he questioned the comforts,
[45:09] Bob Dobbs: the tribal comforts of that,
[45:10] Bob Dobbs: and knew that we were retrieving a pre-tribal situation,
[45:15] Bob Dobbs: an existential suffering.
[45:17] Bob Dobbs: So that's why he says in War and Peace and the Golden Villains that the big discovery of the 20th century is pain.
[45:25] Bob Dobbs: So the exploring of pain is,
[45:27] Bob Dobbs: in a way,
[45:29] Bob Dobbs: the tapping into the pre-tribal loyalties and comforts.
[45:33] Bob Dobbs: of this metaphysical condition,
[45:35] Bob Dobbs: which then he says that the Greeks were the first to discover metaphysical man.
[45:41] Bob Dobbs: Because I guess the alphabet brought in enough of individualism to get them out of the tribal,
[45:47] Bob Dobbs: and are they retrieving pre-literate?
[45:50] Bob Dobbs: Tribal?
[45:50] Bob Dobbs: I don't know.
[45:52] Cameron McEwen: The use of the word metaphysical,
[45:55] Cameron McEwen: the use of the word individual there,
[45:57] Cameron McEwen: is completely different from its use or their use in...
[46:03] Cameron McEwen: the quotes that we're reading.
[46:05] Cameron McEwen: So it's just one more example of McLuhan not caring about specific definitions.
[46:13] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[46:13] Bob Dobbs: every theme there's always two,
[46:16] Bob Dobbs: acoustic and visual.
[46:16] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[46:17] Cameron McEwen: at least.
[46:18] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[46:18] Cameron McEwen: yeah,
[46:18] Cameron McEwen: sure.
[46:19] Cameron McEwen: Well he got,
[46:19] Cameron McEwen: I mean when he was at Cambridge,
[46:22] Cameron McEwen: it was,
[46:22] Cameron McEwen: that was the rage,
[46:23] Cameron McEwen: right,
[46:24] Cameron McEwen: to there was an understanding of language going on in the English school,
[46:32] Cameron McEwen: also with
[46:33] Cameron McEwen: Wittgenstein in philosophy there.
[46:36] Cameron McEwen: People were very conscious of the ambiguities of language.
[46:41] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[46:41] Bob Dobbs: spoken language was starting to be made transparent.
[46:45] Bob Dobbs: The hypnosis was dying,
[46:47] Bob Dobbs: going away.
[46:51] Cameron McEwen: Let me go back,
[46:52] Cameron McEwen: though,
[46:52] Cameron McEwen: before I lose the thought.
[46:55] Cameron McEwen: When we were talking about McLuhan and Catholicism,
[46:59] Cameron McEwen: and you were talking about him wanting to
[47:01] Cameron McEwen: retrieve something of this very ancient metaphysical man,
[47:07] Cameron McEwen: primordial intuition.
[47:11] Cameron McEwen: And then you got into pain.
[47:14] Cameron McEwen: And notice that in the Mass,
[47:19] Cameron McEwen: what is going on in the second part of the Mass is the sacrifice.
[47:24] Cameron McEwen: And the sacrifice,
[47:25] Cameron McEwen: of course,
[47:25] Cameron McEwen: is pain.
[47:27] Cameron McEwen: And what is retrieved in that pain...
[47:31] Cameron McEwen: is the beginning of things,
[47:34] Cameron McEwen: the creation.
[47:35] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[47:36] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[47:36] Cameron McEwen: So the Catholic Mass,
[47:40] Cameron McEwen: although it has fallen on very hard times,
[47:44] Cameron McEwen: both in terms of its ritual and in terms of who bothers to go to it anymore,
[47:50] Cameron McEwen: that is an attempt to relive,
[47:58] Cameron McEwen: to re-be in the time
[48:01] Cameron McEwen: when things first began.
[48:04] Cameron McEwen: So in that respect,
[48:08] Cameron McEwen: it's not different from some sort of temple to Athena in
[48:15] Cameron McEwen: Athens or temple to
[48:19] Cameron McEwen: Zeus in Crete.
[48:23] Cameron McEwen: This need of humans
[48:30] Cameron McEwen: to remember before there was anything is perennial.
[48:36] Cameron McEwen: And
[48:37] Cameron McEwen: I think myself that that's what these quotes that we're looking at are all about.
[48:42] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[48:43] Bob Dobbs: and
[48:44] Bob Dobbs: iON says that taking the RNA drops,
[48:47] Bob Dobbs: which keep your body alive forever.
[48:49] Bob Dobbs: We did a recent talk on
[48:52] Bob Dobbs: LSD affects the mind,
[48:54] Bob Dobbs: confuses,
[48:55] Bob Dobbs: does all kinds of things to the brain.
[48:57] Bob Dobbs: the RNA drops go into this cell.
[49:01] Bob Dobbs: LSD doesn't do that.
[49:02] Bob Dobbs: And you rejuvenate your body,
[49:03] Bob Dobbs: and that's why you can live forever.
[49:05] Bob Dobbs: So
[49:06] Bob Dobbs: iON says that taking the drops in our products is the new mass,
[49:10] Bob Dobbs: is the new celebration.
[49:12] Bob Dobbs: So another quirky point I'm putting in there,
[49:17] Bob Dobbs: that whoever's listening,
[49:20] Bob Dobbs: they may not know what I'm talking about,
[49:21] Bob Dobbs: but
[49:22] Bob Dobbs: I'm just putting on the record what I think while thinking of these McLuhan ideas.
[49:27] Bob Dobbs: Because I thought about these McLuhan ideas,
[49:29] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[49:29] Bob Dobbs: for 50 years.
[49:31] Bob Dobbs: I never could find anybody to talk about it with,
[49:36] Bob Dobbs: but then with iON I could.
[49:39] Bob Dobbs: Then something came from iON where I got new ideas about it or new solutions.
[49:44] Bob Dobbs: So I'm telling you how
[49:47] Bob Dobbs: I see that we are completing McLuhan's probing on retrieving the metaphysical or the original mass,
[49:56] Bob Dobbs: what the mass meant.
[49:59] Bob Dobbs: the function of eating,
[50:01] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[50:01] Bob Dobbs: engaging with substance and digesting it is an act to keep yourself going,
[50:08] Bob Dobbs: supposedly,
[50:09] Bob Dobbs: unless you can survive without food.
[50:11] Bob Dobbs: Maybe yogis or you can develop yourself.
[50:14] Bob Dobbs: So the question of how much food you need,
[50:17] Bob Dobbs: the mass is a question.
[50:18] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[50:19] Bob Dobbs: I'm going to take some more substance to keep going.
[50:22] Bob Dobbs: That's an affirmation of,
[50:27] Bob Dobbs: well,
[50:28] Bob Dobbs: iON defines faith as
[50:29] Bob Dobbs: Not the way normally people think of faith,
[50:31] Bob Dobbs: it's your self-image.
[50:33] Bob Dobbs: So I'm going to keep my self-image going by eating.
[50:36] Bob Dobbs: And then we have really good stuff to eat that makes it even better.
[50:39] Bob Dobbs: So
[50:40] Bob Dobbs: I add that for those that are interested.
[50:44] Bob Dobbs: Sure.
[50:44] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[50:46] Cameron McEwen: one of the first things that communion says is that the human being is fed by its environment.
[50:58] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[51:00] Bob Dobbs: Which can be an abyss or spirit or some vague something.
[51:05] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[51:07] Bob Dobbs: Were you raised a Catholic?
[51:09] Cameron McEwen: No,
[51:11] Cameron McEwen: no,
[51:11] Cameron McEwen: but I spent time in Greece and got to know the
[51:16] Cameron McEwen: Orthodox liturgy.
[51:19] Cameron McEwen: And as McLuhan himself says,
[51:23] Cameron McEwen: that the
[51:24] Cameron McEwen: Eastern Church has preserved.
[51:28] Cameron McEwen: the essence of
[51:30] Cameron McEwen: Catholicism better than the Roman Church.
[51:32] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[51:33] Cameron McEwen: And I think that's correct.
[51:35] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[51:35] Bob Dobbs: that's the argument over the filioque.
[51:39] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[51:39] Cameron McEwen: but
[51:41] Cameron McEwen: I would say that that sort of thing is sort of fallen by the wayside.
[51:48] Cameron McEwen: The big difference between the churches now is that the Eastern Church has retained its ritual and has
[51:58] Cameron McEwen: retained the original ceremony of the
[52:08] Cameron McEwen: Catholic, small c Catholic mass far better than the Western Church has.
[52:15] Bob Dobbs: Do people fall away from the Orthodox Church as much as the Catholic Church?
[52:21] Bob Dobbs: Do you know?
[52:23] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[52:23] Cameron McEwen: I do know something about that.
[52:25] Cameron McEwen: And certainly there's a lot of
[52:27] Cameron McEwen: falling away that that one of the big problems with the orthodox church um is that uh it's often very national so there's the greek orthodox the russian orthodox the romanian etc etc and so when kids are growing up and they don't feel romanian
[52:46] Cameron McEwen: anymore like their parents did yeah then they uh
[52:50] Cameron McEwen: They may not understand the language of the liturgy.
[52:56] Cameron McEwen: And they may feel that it kind of limits them and makes them not feel American or Canadian or whatever.
[53:03] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[53:04] Cameron McEwen: So there's that that goes on in the
[53:07] Cameron McEwen: Orthodox Church that's different from what goes on in the
[53:11] Cameron McEwen: Catholic Church.
[53:13] Cameron McEwen: So there's a falling away from both of them.
[53:16] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[53:18] Cameron McEwen: But in different senses.
[53:20] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[53:22] Bob Dobbs: And
[53:23] Bob Dobbs: I want to remind,
[53:24] Bob Dobbs: just remember that quote from,
[53:25] Bob Dobbs: I think it's...
[53:26] Bob Dobbs: prospect where he says,
[53:28] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[53:28] Bob Dobbs: mid-60s men can't handle the multiple media effects in the global theater so he doesn't get hypnotized by any particular culture.
[53:38] Bob Dobbs: So that puts him into the existential pain of pre-tribal.
[53:42] Cameron McEwen: comforts and then that's what you have to explore and McLuhan is trying to help you explore that yeah i'd go along with that yeah um that's why in the past we've talked about um how it's complete nonsense when McLuhan talks about him never having any problems everything's
[54:04] Bob Dobbs: been hunky-dory my whole life and all this stuff but then you gotta find the the next day he's telling somebody I'm into suffering.
[54:13] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[54:14] Cameron McEwen: exactly.
[54:14] Cameron McEwen: Exactly.
[54:15] Bob Dobbs: So this is what,
[54:17] Bob Dobbs: see,
[54:17] Bob Dobbs: the kids,
[54:18] Bob Dobbs: the millennials and younger,
[54:20] Bob Dobbs: they're in that statement that McLuhan said in the mid-60s about can't be involved with any medium environment because there's a nothingness that's beyond in this tech body,
[54:30] Bob Dobbs: weird virtual world.
[54:32] Bob Dobbs: And they're not being helped how to think about it.
[54:35] Bob Dobbs: we today are presenting a way for these young people who are interested in
[54:41] Bob Dobbs: capable of thinking about it,
[54:42] Bob Dobbs: how to look at what has happened to them.
[54:45] Bob Dobbs: They've been made isolated.
[54:47] Bob Dobbs: They've gone beyond tribal,
[54:48] Bob Dobbs: literate,
[54:49] Bob Dobbs: the whole gamut of cultural variation,
[54:51] Bob Dobbs: and they've been put in this metaphysical condition.
[54:56] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[54:56] Cameron McEwen: or potentially.
[54:58] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[54:58] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[54:58] Cameron McEwen: they're in it.
[54:59] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[54:59] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[54:59] Cameron McEwen: it's there.
[55:00] Bob Dobbs: And no one's helping them define it.
[55:01] Bob Dobbs: They're just saying they don't talk,
[55:03] Bob Dobbs: they don't get married,
[55:04] Bob Dobbs: they don't do this,
[55:04] Bob Dobbs: they don't do that.
[55:05] Bob Dobbs: They're just dummies,
[55:06] Bob Dobbs: you know?
[55:08] Bob Dobbs: But they're missing...
[55:09] Bob Dobbs: the effect that McLuhan predicted,
[55:10] Bob Dobbs: that we would not be cultural anymore in the way culture was.
[55:15] Bob Dobbs: We have too much variety of experience every day to fucking say what it is.
[55:19] Bob Dobbs: Most of it's not even conceptualized.
[55:23] Cameron McEwen: What's happened is that the emptiness is experienced in a Gutenberg Galaxy way.
[55:34] Cameron McEwen: It's experienced as something out there or something beyond.
[55:38] Cameron McEwen: or something different from me.
[55:40] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[55:41] Bob Dobbs: that you fell out of and you're supposed to get back into.
[55:44] Cameron McEwen: That's right.
[55:45] Cameron McEwen: But in fact,
[55:46] Cameron McEwen: the emptiness is in the middle.
[55:48] Cameron McEwen: That's the tactility.
[55:50] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[55:51] Cameron McEwen: So the emptiness and the loss is,
[55:55] Cameron McEwen: in fact,
[55:56] Cameron McEwen: where everything's at.
[55:57] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[56:00] Cameron McEwen: That's at the very back of the temple.
[56:04] Cameron McEwen: It doesn't matter if it's a pagan temple.
[56:07] Cameron McEwen: Christian temple,
[56:08] Cameron McEwen: Orthodox temple,
[56:09] Cameron McEwen: whatever,
[56:11] Cameron McEwen: there's the part of the church which is not available to anybody because it's the sort of the dark heart of
[56:25] Cameron McEwen: everything.
[56:26] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[56:26] Bob Dobbs: You're saying that's a position in the temple,
[56:29] Bob Dobbs: an area?
[56:31] Cameron McEwen: Sure.
[56:32] Bob Dobbs: And nobody can go in there?
[56:34] Bob Dobbs: How is it designated?
[56:36] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[56:36] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[56:37] Cameron McEwen: in the Catholic Church,
[56:39] Cameron McEwen: it has gotten smaller and smaller and smaller until it's the little box holding the wafers.
[56:51] Bob Dobbs: Wow.
[56:52] Cameron McEwen: It's gone down to nothing.
[56:54] Cameron McEwen: But in the Orthodox Church,
[56:56] Cameron McEwen: it's the area behind the iconostasis.
[56:59] Bob Dobbs: So that's behind,
[57:01] Bob Dobbs: that's in the very front of the Church?
[57:04] Cameron McEwen: No,
[57:04] Cameron McEwen: well...
[57:05] Cameron McEwen: front or back.
[57:07] Cameron McEwen: Usually it's called the back.
[57:12] Cameron McEwen: In the front of the church...
[57:14] Bob Dobbs: Behind the altar.
[57:16] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[57:17] Cameron McEwen: there's the...
[57:21] Cameron McEwen: I wouldn't really say it's behind the altar.
[57:25] Cameron McEwen: The main altar is...
[57:33] Cameron McEwen: How can I put this?
[57:35] Cameron McEwen: The architecture of the Orthodox Church is one where the iconostasis,
[57:41] Cameron McEwen: which is,
[57:42] Cameron McEwen: the iconostasis is the wall of the icons that has three gates in it,
[57:48] Cameron McEwen: right?
[57:48] Cameron McEwen: So they,
[57:49] Cameron McEwen: and they,
[57:50] Cameron McEwen: everything in the Orthodox Church circles around through that iconostasis.
[57:57] Cameron McEwen: So what happens is when the first half of the liturgy is the coming of the Word.
[58:04] Cameron McEwen: And so the Word comes out of one door on the right side,
[58:10] Cameron McEwen: looking at us on the right side of the iconostasis.
[58:13] Cameron McEwen: The Word comes out of the
[58:17] Cameron McEwen: Holy of Holies in the back and comes forth to the world.
[58:24] Bob Dobbs: And as we're looking at the back,
[58:26] Bob Dobbs: it's coming out of our right.
[58:30] Cameron McEwen: No,
[58:31] Cameron McEwen: our left.
[58:32] Bob Dobbs: On our left side,
[58:33] Bob Dobbs: it's...
[58:33] Bob Dobbs: So if you were in the back looking at us,
[58:36] Bob Dobbs: it would be there right.
[58:37] Bob Dobbs: So it's our lap that's coming out,
[58:39] Bob Dobbs: and it's going to go over into the other side.
[58:41] Cameron McEwen: Yes,
[58:42] Cameron McEwen: but it stops,
[58:44] Cameron McEwen: and then the passages are read from the Bible in the front of the church,
[58:50] Cameron McEwen: and then it goes in the other gate.
[58:52] Bob Dobbs: Wow.
[58:53] Cameron McEwen: And that's what designates the architecture or the action of the architecture that's going on is a circling,
[59:04] Cameron McEwen: a circling from what is hidden to what is open and back into what is hidden.
[59:09] Cameron McEwen: What is conscious,
[59:10] Bob Dobbs: what is unconscious.
[59:13] Cameron McEwen: drama of cognition.
[59:14] Cameron McEwen: Correct.
[59:14] Cameron McEwen: So then in the second half of the liturgy,
[59:20] Cameron McEwen: the action is in the center gate.
[59:23] Cameron McEwen: And again,
[59:26] Cameron McEwen: the offering comes from the back to the front and then is going to be taken back again,
[59:35] Cameron McEwen: but it is a,
[59:38] Cameron McEwen: instead of being this circular
[59:42] Cameron McEwen: motion.
[59:43] Cameron McEwen: It's the motion of the center.
[59:47] Bob Dobbs: It's like a pulse out and back.
[59:49] Cameron McEwen: Yes,
[59:49] Cameron McEwen: exactly.
[59:50] Cameron McEwen: Exactly.
[59:51] Cameron McEwen: Exactly.
[59:52] Cameron McEwen: But again,
[59:52] Cameron McEwen: there's a sharing.
[59:54] Cameron McEwen: The first sharing is a sharing of the literate word by the oral announcement.
[1:00:03] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[1:00:04] Cameron McEwen: But the next one is tactile.
[1:00:06] Bob Dobbs: Is the communion part of that?
[1:00:11] Cameron McEwen: Pardon me?
[1:00:12] Bob Dobbs: Is the communion part of that?
[1:00:14] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:00:14] Cameron McEwen: that's what I'm saying is what is tactile.
[1:00:17] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:00:18] Bob Dobbs: that's where you eat something.
[1:00:19] Cameron McEwen: Yes.
[1:00:21] Bob Dobbs: Very interesting.
[1:00:22] Bob Dobbs: Is there a name for that part,
[1:00:23] Bob Dobbs: technical name for the hidden part behind?
[1:00:27] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:00:28] Cameron McEwen: there is.
[1:00:29] Cameron McEwen: I'm a dummy,
[1:00:30] Cameron McEwen: and I can't tell you what it is.
[1:00:31] Cameron McEwen: But it was,
[1:00:34] Cameron McEwen: I believe,
[1:00:35] Cameron McEwen: in the
[1:00:36] Cameron McEwen: Greek temples that...
[1:00:40] Cameron McEwen: preceded Christianity,
[1:00:42] Cameron McEwen: I believe it was called the
[1:00:43] Cameron McEwen: Adyton, or Adyton.
[1:00:47] Cameron McEwen: And what it's called in the back of the
[1:00:51] Cameron McEwen: Christian churches,
[1:00:52] Cameron McEwen: I'm not sure,
[1:00:53] Cameron McEwen: but I'll have to look that up.
[1:00:54] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:00:55] Bob Dobbs: what is,
[1:00:56] Bob Dobbs: how do you spell Adyton?
[1:00:58] Cameron McEwen: I know,
[1:00:59] Cameron McEwen: Adyton,
[1:01:00] Cameron McEwen: A-D-Y-T-O-N.
[1:01:03] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:01:03] Bob Dobbs: T-O-N,
[1:01:04] Bob Dobbs: as in ton,
[1:01:05] Bob Dobbs: Adyton,
[1:01:06] Bob Dobbs: Adyton.
[1:01:08] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:01:09] Cameron McEwen: and Adyton,
[1:01:10] Cameron McEwen: probably means to designate,
[1:01:14] Cameron McEwen: to be open,
[1:01:15] Cameron McEwen: and the A is the alpha privative,
[1:01:18] Cameron McEwen: which means not open,
[1:01:20] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:01:21] Cameron McEwen: So it's what is necessarily hidden,
[1:01:24] Cameron McEwen: what can never be shown,
[1:01:27] Cameron McEwen: because it's the source of what is shown.
[1:01:29] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:01:31] Bob Dobbs: what was the two terms again?
[1:01:33] Bob Dobbs: Do it again,
[1:01:33] Bob Dobbs: adyton,
[1:01:34] Bob Dobbs: what was it?
[1:01:35] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:01:36] Cameron McEwen: adyton,
[1:01:36] Cameron McEwen: it's just one word,
[1:01:38] Cameron McEwen: A-D-Y-T-O-N.
[1:01:41] Bob Dobbs: And the O-N was open?
[1:01:45] Cameron McEwen: No,
[1:01:45] Cameron McEwen: the O-N is the end of the word.
[1:01:47] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[1:01:48] Bob Dobbs: But you had two meanings.
[1:01:49] Bob Dobbs: You said something about the A-D,
[1:01:51] Bob Dobbs: the A,
[1:01:51] Bob Dobbs: the alphabet.
[1:01:52] Cameron McEwen: Oh,
[1:01:52] Cameron McEwen: I'm sorry.
[1:01:53] Cameron McEwen: Okay.
[1:01:54] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:01:54] Cameron McEwen: so the du-ton,
[1:01:56] Cameron McEwen: that's probably related to,
[1:02:00] Cameron McEwen: like German,
[1:02:01] Cameron McEwen: deutlich,
[1:02:02] Cameron McEwen: which means clear.
[1:02:04] Cameron McEwen: It probably has to do with what is open,
[1:02:07] Cameron McEwen: what is clear,
[1:02:08] Cameron McEwen: the du-ton part.
[1:02:09] Cameron McEwen: And then the A is an alpha privative.
[1:02:12] Cameron McEwen: So you know many things,
[1:02:13] Cameron McEwen: many words we have in English like amoral or asexual.
[1:02:18] Cameron McEwen: We take the alpha privative from Greek and we use it as a not,
[1:02:24] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:02:24] Cameron McEwen: Amoral is not moral.
[1:02:25] Cameron McEwen: Asexual is not sexual,
[1:02:27] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:02:28] Cameron McEwen: Apolitical is not political.
[1:02:30] Cameron McEwen: So the aduton means what is not open,
[1:02:36] Cameron McEwen: what is not shown.
[1:02:40] Cameron McEwen: It's what is the hidden aspect of reality that is the source of what is manifest.
[1:02:49] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:02:50] Bob Dobbs: this architecture is a picture of what we started off talking about,
[1:02:54] Bob Dobbs: the transition,
[1:02:55] Bob Dobbs: the interplay of metaphysical pre-tribal and tribal.
[1:03:00] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:03:01] Bob Dobbs: the tactile interplay.
[1:03:02] Bob Dobbs: And I want to add that the Evergreens channel through Michael Blake Read saw that children
[1:03:08] Bob Dobbs: this is in the early
[1:03:09] Bob Dobbs: 90s, were getting their corpus callosum expanded with the media diet that they were having,
[1:03:15] Bob Dobbs: the mixed media diet.
[1:03:16] Bob Dobbs: So the corpus callosum,
[1:03:19] Bob Dobbs: maybe that's the interval part of the interplay of the hemispheres.
[1:03:23] Bob Dobbs: That is what's being extended with the digital.
[1:03:28] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:03:28] Cameron McEwen: it's possible.
[1:03:29] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:03:30] Bob Dobbs: That's what Michael saw.
[1:03:31] Bob Dobbs: He saw the children's corpus callosum expanding.
[1:03:36] Bob Dobbs: That is what's happening to the millennials and younger,
[1:03:40] Bob Dobbs: and the culture is at complete ignorance about how to talk to them about it.
[1:03:46] Bob Dobbs: You see,
[1:03:47] Bob Dobbs: they say that the kids don't want to be told anything because it's all on Google.
[1:03:54] Bob Dobbs: And so these categories of knowledge,
[1:03:57] Bob Dobbs: it's all out there.
[1:03:58] Bob Dobbs: They don't need to be told by you.
[1:04:00] Bob Dobbs: But they're wondering where they are,
[1:04:04] Bob Dobbs: and it's not being explained.
[1:04:09] Bob Dobbs: So their indifference to categories is proper.
[1:04:15] Bob Dobbs: Because they're living beyond categories,
[1:04:17] Bob Dobbs: and therefore there's no cultural instruction they require,
[1:04:20] Bob Dobbs: other than what we're talking about,
[1:04:22] Bob Dobbs: which is a larger ground explanation,
[1:04:26] Bob Dobbs: which would help anybody who was smart enough to get it,
[1:04:29] Bob Dobbs: what we're saying here,
[1:04:32] Bob Dobbs: is that this is the knowledge,
[1:04:34] Bob Dobbs: the expression of a fact,
[1:04:37] Bob Dobbs: which is a figure-ground relationship,
[1:04:39] Bob Dobbs: that nobody is telling them what their dilemma is.
[1:04:42] Bob Dobbs: So it gets beyond calling them stupid.
[1:04:45] Bob Dobbs: socially apathetic,
[1:04:45] Bob Dobbs: all these stupid categories,
[1:04:47] Bob Dobbs: don't deal with,
[1:04:49] Bob Dobbs: they are not in any known culture anymore.
[1:04:52] Bob Dobbs: They're in a new situation,
[1:04:54] Bob Dobbs: and it's symbolized by the growing of the corpus callosum.
[1:04:58] Bob Dobbs: So this is very important,
[1:05:00] Bob Dobbs: what I'm saying here,
[1:05:01] Bob Dobbs: what we're discovering through what you're saying.
[1:05:06] Bob Dobbs: This is what I thought I always had to say to young people if I was given the opportunity.
[1:05:13] Bob Dobbs: I would explain what we're doing,
[1:05:15] Bob Dobbs: but never had the opportunity really,
[1:05:18] Bob Dobbs: I've said it on the show,
[1:05:20] Bob Dobbs: sort of talked about it with iON,
[1:05:21] Bob Dobbs: but now that we've done this,
[1:05:24] Bob Dobbs: it's a very important recording,
[1:05:26] Bob Dobbs: because this can be excerpted,
[1:05:28] Bob Dobbs: what we're doing,
[1:05:28] Bob Dobbs: or the whole show,
[1:05:29] Bob Dobbs: and we're telling people something that's never been heard before in the McLuhan context.
[1:05:36] Cameron McEwen: On page 129,
[1:05:37] Cameron McEwen: there's an interesting passage about this where...
[1:05:44] Cameron McEwen: Bob says that McLuhan says,
[1:05:46] Cameron McEwen: bless the locomotive whistling on the prairie,
[1:05:49] Cameron McEwen: proclaiming the separateness of man.
[1:05:52] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:05:52] Bob Dobbs: that's a tremendous statement.
[1:05:55] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:05:55] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[1:05:55] Cameron McEwen: But that's more or less what we've been talking about for the last half hour,
[1:06:01] Cameron McEwen: but just in different terms.
[1:06:02] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:06:03] Bob Dobbs: And we're talking about the increasing autonomy that digital media is doing to people,
[1:06:11] Bob Dobbs: the increasing separateness.
[1:06:13] Bob Dobbs: But it's not a literate separateness or acoustic,
[1:06:15] Bob Dobbs: it's a multi-level,
[1:06:16] Bob Dobbs: weird,
[1:06:17] Bob Dobbs: complex,
[1:06:17] Bob Dobbs: five-bodied separateness,
[1:06:20] Bob Dobbs: which cannot be categorized in any cultural terms and may be not met by any movies or poetry or editors'
[1:06:28] Bob Dobbs: columns or painting or sculpture or football games.
[1:06:33] Bob Dobbs: Those things do not provide,
[1:06:36] Bob Dobbs: quote,
[1:06:37] Bob Dobbs: spiritual sustenance,
[1:06:39] Bob Dobbs: which is what real art does,
[1:06:40] Bob Dobbs: real,
[1:06:41] Bob Dobbs: good,
[1:06:41] Bob Dobbs: explicit.
[1:06:42] Bob Dobbs: Accurate statements,
[1:06:44] Bob Dobbs: they provide comfort for the mind.
[1:06:47] Bob Dobbs: It states something,
[1:06:49] Bob Dobbs: you know.
[1:06:49] Bob Dobbs: It's actually a beauty if it's said correctly.
[1:06:53] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[1:06:53] Cameron McEwen: People require that.
[1:06:56] Cameron McEwen: In this statement,
[1:06:57] Cameron McEwen: bless the locomotive whistling on the prairies proclaiming the separateness of man.
[1:07:02] Cameron McEwen: It's very important that the separateness of man not be thought of as a subjective genitive.
[1:07:10] Cameron McEwen: That is to say,
[1:07:11] Cameron McEwen: the separateness...
[1:07:12] Cameron McEwen: doesn't belong to man.
[1:07:15] Cameron McEwen: Instead,
[1:07:16] Cameron McEwen: it's the separateness of man where man is the object of the separateness.
[1:07:21] Cameron McEwen: So the separateness,
[1:07:24] Cameron McEwen: if we think back for a minute what we're saying about the Orthodox Church,
[1:07:29] Cameron McEwen: the separateness from what is hidden to what is apparent,
[1:07:35] Cameron McEwen: to what is not said to what is said,
[1:07:39] Cameron McEwen: to what is not tasted.
[1:07:41] Cameron McEwen: to what is tasted.
[1:07:43] Cameron McEwen: The separateness between those things is the heart of everything.
[1:07:49] Cameron McEwen: That separateness can never be shown,
[1:07:52] Cameron McEwen: can never be described,
[1:07:54] Cameron McEwen: because it's what makes the separateness between the hidden and the shown possible.
[1:08:03] Bob Dobbs: And it explains McLuhan's personality.
[1:08:06] Bob Dobbs: He always was acting that out.
[1:08:09] Bob Dobbs: He always was disconnecting himself from whatever was going on,
[1:08:12] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:08:13] Bob Dobbs: He's trying to say,
[1:08:14] Bob Dobbs: I'm not being fooled,
[1:08:15] Bob Dobbs: seduced by whatever this situation is in front of us or around us.
[1:08:19] Bob Dobbs: So that sentence was an amazingly important sentence.
[1:08:23] Bob Dobbs: So that was one I would bring up occasionally.
[1:08:27] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:08:27] Bob Dobbs: everybody's talking about fusion and tribal unity and all the sentiments that were put into McLuhan's work in the
[1:08:35] Bob Dobbs: 60s.
[1:08:36] Bob Dobbs: What about this separateness point?
[1:08:39] Bob Dobbs: And so then,
[1:08:40] Bob Dobbs: did McLuhan talk about the Internet or what was coming digitally?
[1:08:43] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:08:44] Bob Dobbs: with the separateness point.
[1:08:45] Bob Dobbs: That's what was being extended.
[1:08:47] Bob Dobbs: And I think Theall is good on pointing out the synesthetic and the co-anesthetic.
[1:08:53] Bob Dobbs: The co-anesthetic is increasingly putting you in the director's chair,
[1:08:57] Bob Dobbs: which is a separateness position,
[1:08:59] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:09:00] Bob Dobbs: So those are terms I use to explain this strange new situation of retrieving the original separateness.
[1:09:08] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:09:08] Cameron McEwen: so
[1:09:11] Cameron McEwen: I forget which of the Joyce essays,
[1:09:14] Cameron McEwen: but in one of the...
[1:09:16] Cameron McEwen: early
[1:09:17] Cameron McEwen: 1950s Joyce essays,
[1:09:20] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan talks about how in the humanities or the arts,
[1:09:32] Cameron McEwen: just like in physics,
[1:09:35] Cameron McEwen: fission precedes fusion.
[1:09:39] Cameron McEwen: Exactly.
[1:09:40] Cameron McEwen: So that fission is the separateness that we're just talking about.
[1:09:45] Cameron McEwen: It doesn't mean that in linear terms that there's first the one,
[1:09:52] Cameron McEwen: then the other.
[1:09:53] Cameron McEwen: That's Gutenbergian.
[1:09:55] Bob Dobbs: And that's nature mysticism he always detached himself from.
[1:10:00] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:10:00] Cameron McEwen: So when he says that it has precedence,
[1:10:04] Cameron McEwen: what he means is if you're going to understand meaningful fusion,
[1:10:11] Cameron McEwen: you first have to understand meaningful fission.
[1:10:14] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:10:16] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:10:17] Bob Dobbs: so let's finish.
[1:10:18] Bob Dobbs: You have here,
[1:10:19] Bob Dobbs: after the empty fiction thing,
[1:10:22] Bob Dobbs: you say,
[1:10:23] Bob Dobbs: so speech,
[1:10:24] Bob Dobbs: this is your writing,
[1:10:26] Bob Dobbs: so speech,
[1:10:26] Bob Dobbs: capitalize,
[1:10:27] Bob Dobbs: would be the addition of some limited visuality to overwhelming orality and literacy.
[1:10:34] Bob Dobbs: No,
[1:10:35] Bob Dobbs: I'm going to do that again.
[1:10:36] Bob Dobbs: So speech would be the addition of some limited visuality to overwhelming orality,
[1:10:41] Bob Dobbs: and literacy would be the mining of this visuality for use.
[1:10:46] Bob Dobbs: And the electric would be the mining of orality for use threatening to become the complete loss of visuality into the boundless,
[1:10:54] Bob Dobbs: directionless,
[1:10:55] Bob Dobbs: horizonless,
[1:10:56] Bob Dobbs: the dark of the mind,
[1:10:57] Bob Dobbs: the world of emotion,
[1:10:58] Bob Dobbs: primordial intuition,
[1:10:58] Bob Dobbs: and terror.
[1:10:59] Bob Dobbs: That's a very good,
[1:11:00] Bob Dobbs: accurate statement.
[1:11:01] Bob Dobbs: So speech would be the addition of some limited visuality to overwhelming orality and tactility,
[1:11:13] Bob Dobbs: maybe.
[1:11:15] Bob Dobbs: And then...
[1:11:15] Bob Dobbs: Literacy is later would be the mining of this visuality of speech.
[1:11:20] Bob Dobbs: Speech is the content of the alphabet,
[1:11:23] Bob Dobbs: and that leads to applied knowledge,
[1:11:26] Bob Dobbs: especially with the printing press,
[1:11:29] Bob Dobbs: for use,
[1:11:30] Bob Dobbs: the mining of this visuality for use.
[1:11:32] Bob Dobbs: Then the electric would be the mining of orality for use.
[1:11:36] Bob Dobbs: That's the wealth of culture.
[1:11:38] Bob Dobbs: That's the rearview mirror.
[1:11:39] Bob Dobbs: The content of our culture is orality.
[1:11:43] Bob Dobbs: that sufficient causality for wealth-making,
[1:11:46] Bob Dobbs: or comforts of media,
[1:11:49] Bob Dobbs: threatening to become the complete loss of visuality,
[1:11:53] Bob Dobbs: which would be the loss of Christianity,
[1:11:55] Bob Dobbs: into the boundless,
[1:11:56] Bob Dobbs: directionless,
[1:11:56] Bob Dobbs: horizonless,
[1:11:57] Bob Dobbs: dark of the mind,
[1:11:57] Bob Dobbs: the world of emotion,
[1:11:58] Bob Dobbs: primordial intuition,
[1:12:00] Bob Dobbs: and terror.
[1:12:01] Bob Dobbs: So that's a very good statement.
[1:12:03] Bob Dobbs: It sums up all that we were excavating here the last hour or so.
[1:12:08] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:12:10] Cameron McEwen: notice my...
[1:12:12] Cameron McEwen: I put a question mark behind a lot of these things because the idea of sort of making a formula or making an equation is not fitted to what we're talking about.
[1:12:27] Bob Dobbs: Yep.
[1:12:27] Cameron McEwen: So
[1:12:28] Cameron McEwen: I was doing that kind of as a thought exercise,
[1:12:33] Cameron McEwen: but aware that it wasn't an appropriate form.
[1:12:38] Bob Dobbs: All right.
[1:12:39] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[1:12:40] Bob Dobbs: So then.
[1:12:41] Bob Dobbs: We go to page 129,
[1:12:47] Bob Dobbs: and what was it,
[1:12:48] Bob Dobbs: 128.
[1:12:50] Bob Dobbs: So remember we talked about the audience of the intellect.
[1:12:53] Bob Dobbs: I think I have in my note the bottom of,
[1:12:56] Bob Dobbs: we did the multiplicity of media.
[1:12:57] Bob Dobbs: There's that quote from Prospect,
[1:12:59] Bob Dobbs: 1962.
[1:13:00] Bob Dobbs: I'll just read it.
[1:13:01] Bob Dobbs: It's the one I was talking about 10 minutes ago.
[1:13:04] Bob Dobbs: And I think McLuhan says,
[1:13:05] Bob Dobbs: and I think this is an interview.
[1:13:08] Bob Dobbs: So it's conversational.
[1:13:08] Bob Dobbs: He says,
[1:13:09] Bob Dobbs: and I think it is this multiplicity of media is now enabling man to free himself from media for the first time in history.
[1:13:17] Bob Dobbs: He has been the victim,
[1:13:17] Bob Dobbs: the servomechanism of his technologies,
[1:13:20] Bob Dobbs: his media,
[1:13:21] Bob Dobbs: from the beginning of time.
[1:13:23] Bob Dobbs: Time is tribal.
[1:13:26] Bob Dobbs: But now,
[1:13:27] Bob Dobbs: because of the sheer multiplicity of them,
[1:13:29] Bob Dobbs: he's beginning to awaken because he can't live with them all.
[1:13:33] Bob Dobbs: See,
[1:13:33] Bob Dobbs: that's a really important statement.
[1:13:36] Bob Dobbs: Praise Bob.
[1:13:37] Bob Dobbs: highlighting it.
[1:13:39] Bob Dobbs: Bring it back.
[1:13:40] Bob Dobbs: Then Bob's conversational self in the blue text says,
[1:13:44] Bob Dobbs: this is the beginning of,
[1:13:45] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[1:13:45] Bob Dobbs: this is saying what I meant.
[1:13:47] Bob Dobbs: This is the beginning of the autonomy,
[1:13:49] Bob Dobbs: the voluntary ESP,
[1:13:51] Bob Dobbs: the subtle communication of metaphysical man before speech is mental gesture,
[1:13:56] Bob Dobbs: voluntary ESP.
[1:13:58] Bob Dobbs: How much are you actually going to pretend you get what the other person's communicating?
[1:14:03] Bob Dobbs: We're being disconnected now.
[1:14:04] Bob Dobbs: We're being disconnected from the electric ESP.
[1:14:06] Bob Dobbs: We're being kicked out.
[1:14:08] Bob Dobbs: That's just too much.
[1:14:09] Bob Dobbs: So in a way,
[1:14:10] Bob Dobbs: Marshall McLuhan is recognizing this isn't for him.
[1:14:13] Bob Dobbs: The news is not serving an informing or warning function anymore.
[1:14:18] Bob Dobbs: So that means,
[1:14:20] Bob Dobbs: I guess,
[1:14:20] Bob Dobbs: that he's on another level of alert,
[1:14:24] Bob Dobbs: the distant early warning.
[1:14:25] Bob Dobbs: The news is not warning enough.
[1:14:27] Bob Dobbs: It's too content-oriented.
[1:14:29] Bob Dobbs: It's too much the old media.
[1:14:31] Bob Dobbs: It's not warning about the...
[1:14:36] Bob Dobbs: A situation where you can't live with all this and you're not in culture anymore.
[1:14:39] Bob Dobbs: You're acultural.
[1:14:42] Bob Dobbs: Okay?
[1:14:43] Bob Dobbs: Get that?
[1:14:45] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:14:46] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:14:47] Cameron McEwen: The news isn't anything new.
[1:14:51] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[1:14:52] Bob Dobbs: It's old.
[1:14:52] Bob Dobbs: So then we come,
[1:14:57] Bob Dobbs: that's where I have this quote.
[1:14:59] Bob Dobbs: So you see how I'm positioning these quotes when I was composing this.
[1:15:05] Bob Dobbs: We have talked our way to this issue,
[1:15:07] Bob Dobbs: and that's where this issue should be,
[1:15:09] Bob Dobbs: at page 128.
[1:15:11] Bob Dobbs: And there it is,
[1:15:12] Bob Dobbs: the Brent Stilley quote.
[1:15:14] Bob Dobbs: When writing was introduced in the 5th century B.C.,
[1:15:16] Bob Dobbs: it scrapped the old tribal traditions of Homer and Hesiod,
[1:15:19] Bob Dobbs: but retrieved the private individual man,
[1:15:21] Bob Dobbs: an ancient form dredged up from way,
[1:15:23] Bob Dobbs: way back.
[1:15:24] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:15:25] Bob Dobbs: you would point out the simultaneity of all this,
[1:15:28] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:15:28] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[1:15:29] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[1:15:29] Cameron McEwen: sir.
[1:15:30] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:15:31] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:15:33] Bob Dobbs: as you...
[1:15:34] Bob Dobbs: Think of what McLuhan's doing here,
[1:15:38] Bob Dobbs: get familiar with it.
[1:15:39] Bob Dobbs: You see how beautiful Finnegans Wake is,
[1:15:41] Bob Dobbs: because it's describing the situation in book form.
[1:15:46] Bob Dobbs: Joyce said to me through the Evergreens,
[1:15:49] Bob Dobbs: I want it so that you could not find an underlying idea.
[1:15:55] Bob Dobbs: There's a void being communicated,
[1:15:56] Bob Dobbs: or there's no communication at the bottom,
[1:15:59] Bob Dobbs: which is this early condition of indifference to...
[1:16:06] Bob Dobbs: establishing anything with anybody else.
[1:16:09] Bob Dobbs: That is what his book is.
[1:16:12] Bob Dobbs: His book is an expression of that autonomous metaphysical situation McLuhan's talking about.
[1:16:19] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:16:19] Bob Dobbs: he probably never said it,
[1:16:21] Bob Dobbs: unless we can find a quote,
[1:16:23] Bob Dobbs: but Joyce was expressing that condition for him.
[1:16:28] Bob Dobbs: The wake was.
[1:16:31] Bob Dobbs: So that's like...
[1:16:32] Bob Dobbs: he'd get all enthusiastic about Joyce every now and then and say,
[1:16:35] Bob Dobbs: wow,
[1:16:35] Bob Dobbs: this guy laid out the perfect communication.
[1:16:39] Bob Dobbs: It's more important than any scientific formula.
[1:16:43] Bob Dobbs: So if somebody invents things,
[1:16:46] Bob Dobbs: then the society has to deal with the effects of that.
[1:16:48] Bob Dobbs: Finnegans Wake is the best warning about new inventions that are coming,
[1:16:56] Bob Dobbs: new environments.
[1:16:57] Bob Dobbs: You get what I'm saying?
[1:16:59] Cameron McEwen: Is it a warning or is it a
[1:17:02] Bob Dobbs: It's a warning,
[1:17:02] Bob Dobbs: a celebration.
[1:17:03] Bob Dobbs: It's the ineffable.
[1:17:05] Bob Dobbs: It's the metaphysical void.
[1:17:06] Bob Dobbs: It's non-communication.
[1:17:08] Bob Dobbs: It is awareness of it,
[1:17:10] Bob Dobbs: being awake about it.
[1:17:12] Bob Dobbs: What McLuhan's trying to say back there with that quote,
[1:17:18] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:17:18] Bob Dobbs: the sheer multiplicity of everything,
[1:17:21] Bob Dobbs: all the multiplicity of every form of expression that Joyce puts in Finnegans Wake,
[1:17:25] Bob Dobbs: he is beginning to awaken to the sheer multiplicity because he can't live with them all.
[1:17:29] Bob Dobbs: And,
[1:17:29] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:17:29] Bob Dobbs: that's the frustration of...
[1:17:31] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan said it was exhilarating reading The Wake,
[1:17:34] Bob Dobbs: but extremely frustrating.
[1:17:36] Bob Dobbs: So he's getting both things going on there.
[1:17:39] Bob Dobbs: Because you can't live with The Wake.
[1:17:41] Bob Dobbs: What is it that is real?
[1:17:42] Bob Dobbs: Why all this stuff?
[1:17:44] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:17:44] Bob Dobbs: it's frustrating to people if they're looking for a Gutenberg conclusion.
[1:17:49] Bob Dobbs: So it's a kind of yoga to get used to confronting The Wake,
[1:17:53] Bob Dobbs: talking to The Wake.
[1:17:56] Bob Dobbs: He says the new yoga is self-entertainment.
[1:17:59] Bob Dobbs: The Wake is...
[1:18:00] Bob Dobbs: The book is a great means of self-entertainment with all the purposes,
[1:18:07] Bob Dobbs: which are two,
[1:18:09] Bob Dobbs: awakening and suffering.
[1:18:12] Bob Dobbs: So it's so perfect the way Joyce wrote it.
[1:18:15] Bob Dobbs: And for cultural Gutenbergian content,
[1:18:18] Bob Dobbs: he's got everything there.
[1:18:19] Bob Dobbs: He's got all the stories,
[1:18:20] Bob Dobbs: all the nursery rhymes,
[1:18:22] Bob Dobbs: all the languages,
[1:18:24] Bob Dobbs: all the myths and histories of different cultures.
[1:18:29] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:18:30] Bob Dobbs: on the content,
[1:18:31] Bob Dobbs: the hints of content,
[1:18:32] Bob Dobbs: which is like seeing all that's going to unfold from some point.
[1:18:39] Bob Dobbs: a quote,
[1:18:40] Bob Dobbs: a beginning.
[1:18:41] Bob Dobbs: And then you're going to see the cycle of inventions.
[1:18:43] Bob Dobbs: And he's got it all.
[1:18:45] Bob Dobbs: So he's actually showing what seers or whatever saw.
[1:18:50] Bob Dobbs: When they saw everything,
[1:18:51] Bob Dobbs: like Nostradamus,
[1:18:52] Bob Dobbs: they were having the Finnegans Wake wake experience.
[1:18:57] Bob Dobbs: And then how do they react to that?
[1:19:00] Bob Dobbs: And Joyce includes your drama in response to it.
[1:19:07] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:19:07] Cameron McEwen: you know that I don't...
[1:19:08] Cameron McEwen: I don't claim any expertise in Finnegans Wake.
[1:19:12] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:19:13] Cameron McEwen: have you looked at it?
[1:19:15] Cameron McEwen: What you're saying seems tenable,
[1:19:21] Cameron McEwen: but
[1:19:22] Cameron McEwen: I really don't know.
[1:19:25] Bob Dobbs: What did you say?
[1:19:25] Bob Dobbs: It sounds what?
[1:19:27] Cameron McEwen: Tenable.
[1:19:28] Bob Dobbs: Terrible?
[1:19:30] Cameron McEwen: Tenable.
[1:19:30] Cameron McEwen: Tenable.
[1:19:31] Bob Dobbs: Tenable,
[1:19:32] Bob Dobbs: yes.
[1:19:32] Bob Dobbs: Tenable,
[1:19:33] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[1:19:33] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:19:33] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[1:19:34] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:19:35] Bob Dobbs: I've spent 60 years looking at it.
[1:19:36] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:19:36] Bob Dobbs: you've looked at it a little bit,
[1:19:37] Bob Dobbs: but you haven't really put a long-range study of it.
[1:19:41] Cameron McEwen: Correct.
[1:19:42] Bob Dobbs: Are you prompted to do it?
[1:19:44] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:19:45] Cameron McEwen: at some point.
[1:19:46] Cameron McEwen: At some point,
[1:19:47] Cameron McEwen: if I live long enough and my being continues to work,
[1:19:51] Cameron McEwen: I hope to do that.
[1:19:52] Cameron McEwen: But
[1:19:54] Cameron McEwen: I've got other stuff that I have to do,
[1:19:57] Cameron McEwen: and when I turn to the wake,
[1:20:01] Cameron McEwen: as I wrote in a post the other day,
[1:20:04] Cameron McEwen: I said that the varieties of human reality are shown in the different chapters of Ulysses.
[1:20:14] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:20:15] Cameron McEwen: But in the wake,
[1:20:16] Cameron McEwen: they're shown in the individual words.
[1:20:19] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[1:20:19] Cameron McEwen: So the conclusion I came to is that every word in Finnegans Wake is a chapter.
[1:20:26] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:20:26] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan says,
[1:20:27] Bob Dobbs: he says in Take Today that Marshall McLuhan,
[1:20:29] Bob Dobbs: that Joyce figured out how to make a whole universe out of one word.
[1:20:33] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:20:34] Cameron McEwen: So that makes a very heavy demand on the reader.
[1:20:40] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:20:40] Bob Dobbs: so,
[1:20:43] Bob Dobbs: what you were just saying,
[1:20:44] Bob Dobbs: I had a thought there about it.
[1:20:50] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[1:20:50] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[1:20:51] Bob Dobbs: So
[1:20:51] Bob Dobbs: Ulysses is the archetypes of the postures of individual mind.
[1:20:56] Bob Dobbs: Finnegans Wake is the archetypes of the postures of collective experience or collective media or of language.
[1:21:04] Bob Dobbs: or extensions of word.
[1:21:05] Bob Dobbs: That's the difference.
[1:21:06] Bob Dobbs: And he says that in Cliched Archetype.
[1:21:09] Bob Dobbs: So
[1:21:11] Bob Dobbs: I have something to mention to you when we finish recording.
[1:21:14] Bob Dobbs: So remember,
[1:21:15] Bob Dobbs: I have something to tell you,
[1:21:16] Bob Dobbs: okay?
[1:21:17] Cameron McEwen: Okay.
[1:21:17] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:21:18] Bob Dobbs: I don't want to put it on the tape.
[1:21:19] Bob Dobbs: So you just reminded me of it.
[1:21:22] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[1:21:25] Bob Dobbs: So this is very important what we've gotten to.
[1:21:27] Bob Dobbs: So where am I going to go with this?
[1:21:31] Bob Dobbs: What is the tech body?
[1:21:33] Bob Dobbs: Which is like a crystallization of all that Finnegans Wake is.
[1:21:36] Bob Dobbs: The tech body is going to have everything in it.
[1:21:40] Bob Dobbs: So how do I go from getting to the core of McLuhan,
[1:21:44] Bob Dobbs: the most up-to-date interpretation of what he's wrestling with,
[1:21:47] Bob Dobbs: as a Catholic that is not familiar to anybody,
[1:21:51] Bob Dobbs: and he's actually probed into a new problem,
[1:21:54] Bob Dobbs: and maybe a kind of solution,
[1:21:57] Bob Dobbs: but it's not important to have a solution.
[1:22:01] Bob Dobbs: Where am I going to go with that?
[1:22:02] Bob Dobbs: So we have that quote at the bottom of 128.
[1:22:08] Bob Dobbs: And then,
[1:22:08] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[1:22:09] Bob Dobbs: I say,
[1:22:11] Bob Dobbs: this is way back before social media.
[1:22:13] Bob Dobbs: And I put social media in quotes,
[1:22:15] Bob Dobbs: which is a ridiculous term.
[1:22:17] Bob Dobbs: All media is social.
[1:22:19] Bob Dobbs: Social media is a way of communication that's squared,
[1:22:22] Bob Dobbs: which is the Android meme.
[1:22:24] Bob Dobbs: The whole history of technologies is analog media,
[1:22:27] Bob Dobbs: and the digital becomes a squaring of it,
[1:22:29] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:22:29] Bob Dobbs: So we actually call it media media.
[1:22:33] Bob Dobbs: I said,
[1:22:34] Bob Dobbs: I'm trying to show the separateness of humans.
[1:22:37] Bob Dobbs: Wow,
[1:22:37] Bob Dobbs: that's pretty neat.
[1:22:38] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:22:40] Bob Dobbs: no,
[1:22:40] Bob Dobbs: you can understand what I'm saying based on our whole conversation last hour and a half.
[1:22:46] Bob Dobbs: Had you read this part?
[1:22:47] Bob Dobbs: You probably hadn't read it yet.
[1:22:50] Cameron McEwen: Oh,
[1:22:50] Cameron McEwen: I had when I first read your pamphlet.
[1:22:53] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[1:22:54] Cameron McEwen: This is not my first time going through it.
[1:22:58] Cameron McEwen: It's not even our first time going through it.
[1:23:02] Cameron McEwen: We jumped around in it,
[1:23:03] Cameron McEwen: and now we're going through it more systematically.
[1:23:07] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[1:23:08] Bob Dobbs: I see.
[1:23:09] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[1:23:09] Bob Dobbs: It's more conscious.
[1:23:11] Bob Dobbs: I'm trying to show the separateness of humans,
[1:23:14] Bob Dobbs: and that's before I have the separateness quote that you talk about,
[1:23:19] Bob Dobbs: the whistling and the prairies,
[1:23:21] Bob Dobbs: and I'm talking about it before I show the quote.
[1:23:24] Bob Dobbs: So I'm saying I'm trying to show the separateness of humans.
[1:23:26] Bob Dobbs: So that means
[1:23:27] Bob Dobbs: I saw...
[1:23:29] Bob Dobbs: The separateness was the condition evoked by the prospect interview where
[1:23:34] Bob Dobbs: The sheer multiplicity is awakening,
[1:23:36] Bob Dobbs: but also too much to live with,
[1:23:38] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:23:38] Bob Dobbs: That's leading into the separateness point,
[1:23:41] Bob Dobbs: or retrieving what he said back in the
[1:23:43] Bob Dobbs: 50s.
[1:23:45] Bob Dobbs: So
[1:23:48] Bob Dobbs: I say this is way back before social media.
[1:23:50] Bob Dobbs: I'm trying to show the separateness of humans.
[1:23:53] Bob Dobbs: Here,
[1:23:53] Bob Dobbs: before there were societies and tribes,
[1:23:55] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan is saying,
[1:23:55] Bob Dobbs: quote,
[1:23:56] Bob Dobbs: individual man was private.
[1:23:59] Bob Dobbs: There were people moving around,
[1:24:00] Bob Dobbs: and they were,
[1:24:01] Bob Dobbs: quote,
[1:24:01] Bob Dobbs: isolated individuals.
[1:24:04] Bob Dobbs: That's what he is saying in the quotation above,
[1:24:06] Bob Dobbs: the Rolling Stone quotation.
[1:24:08] Bob Dobbs: And that's like today.
[1:24:09] Bob Dobbs: We're isolated individuals.
[1:24:11] Bob Dobbs: However,
[1:24:11] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan doesn't say that's an unfortunate situation.
[1:24:16] Bob Dobbs: All right?
[1:24:17] Bob Dobbs: That's important.
[1:24:18] Bob Dobbs: So the isolated individuals become multi-bodied beings.
[1:24:23] Bob Dobbs: Right?
[1:24:23] Bob Dobbs: So I'm going to expand that into the five bodies later in the paper,
[1:24:29] Bob Dobbs: which is on the route to the tech body.
[1:24:33] Bob Dobbs: So then we have the quote.
[1:24:34] Bob Dobbs: from Counterblast,
[1:24:35] Bob Dobbs: page 10,
[1:24:36] Bob Dobbs: bless the locomotives.
[1:24:38] Bob Dobbs: This is 1954 Counterblast.
[1:24:40] Bob Dobbs: Bless the locomotives whistling on the prairies,
[1:24:42] Bob Dobbs: proclaiming the separateness of man.
[1:24:45] Bob Dobbs: And they are,
[1:24:46] Bob Dobbs: bless whistling and separateness is capitalized in the original.
[1:24:50] Bob Dobbs: So then I say,
[1:24:51] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan says,
[1:24:51] Bob Dobbs: quote,
[1:24:52] Bob Dobbs: bless the locomotives whistling on the prairies,
[1:24:54] Bob Dobbs: proclaiming the separateness of man,
[1:24:57] Bob Dobbs: which must be so autobiographical,
[1:24:59] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:25:00] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:25:01] Bob Dobbs: if he's out there in the prairies hearing the whistle.
[1:25:04] Bob Dobbs: He grows up with that.
[1:25:05] Bob Dobbs: It probably is always a prompt of meditation for him.
[1:25:09] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[1:25:10] Bob Dobbs: What emotions is he feeling?
[1:25:14] Cameron McEwen: There is,
[1:25:15] Cameron McEwen: or at least was,
[1:25:16] Cameron McEwen: I don't know if it's still there today,
[1:25:18] Cameron McEwen: but there was a rail line running down along the Pembina Highway in Winnipeg and
[1:25:27] Cameron McEwen: Fort Rouge,
[1:25:29] Cameron McEwen: where
[1:25:30] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan lived,
[1:25:31] Cameron McEwen: butts right up against the...
[1:25:34] Bob Dobbs: coming to highway wow so um he would have uh heard uh every day for sure yeah maybe twice a day that's so that's something um i could ask him about okay so um McLuhan says bless the locomotive whistling on the prairies proclaiming the separateness of man separateness of man so
[1:25:57] Bob Dobbs: then i say bless those locomotives that he had heard from his winnipeg home like i assumed that
[1:26:03] Bob Dobbs: But you're telling me something I didn't know.
[1:26:05] Bob Dobbs: It went right by his home,
[1:26:08] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:26:09] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:26:09] Cameron McEwen: yeah,
[1:26:09] Cameron McEwen: it was,
[1:26:13] Cameron McEwen: I would say,
[1:26:13] Cameron McEwen: maybe six blocks,
[1:26:16] Cameron McEwen: maybe eight blocks away to the,
[1:26:18] Cameron McEwen: I'm trying to think of the direction,
[1:26:26] Cameron McEwen: that's to the east,
[1:26:28] Cameron McEwen: is where the rail line was or maybe still is.
[1:26:33] Bob Dobbs: So the toot of the horn is like Zappa's big note.
[1:26:36] Bob Dobbs: It contains all harmonies,
[1:26:39] Bob Dobbs: all orchestrations,
[1:26:40] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:26:42] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:26:43] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan quotes a German philosopher about that.
[1:26:49] Cameron McEwen: I forget the guy's name.
[1:26:50] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:26:51] Bob Dobbs: In Understanding Media.
[1:26:52] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:26:55] Bob Dobbs: that's a quote we knew a long time ago.
[1:26:58] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:26:59] Bob Dobbs: So then I say the Homer quotation above.
[1:27:03] Bob Dobbs: That's the one about private man,
[1:27:05] Bob Dobbs: pre-tribal.
[1:27:07] Bob Dobbs: The Homer quotation above is the only time Marshall McLuhan ever talked about private individuals before tribalism.
[1:27:12] Bob Dobbs: So I wasn't aware of these other quotes that you found.
[1:27:15] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[1:27:16] Bob Dobbs: His evolution,
[1:27:17] Bob Dobbs: in quotes evolution,
[1:27:19] Bob Dobbs: his evolution of culture always began with tribalism,
[1:27:22] Bob Dobbs: then individuality with the Gutenberg Galaxy.
[1:27:25] Bob Dobbs: But here he's located a private individual human before any social formation.
[1:27:30] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[1:27:31] Bob Dobbs: In the next quotation,
[1:27:32] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan is celebrating the separateness of man.
[1:27:34] Bob Dobbs: He doesn't mean private,
[1:27:36] Bob Dobbs: that means formed by visual space and the phonetic alphabet.
[1:27:38] Bob Dobbs: He means isolated,
[1:27:41] Bob Dobbs: separate,
[1:27:41] Bob Dobbs: narcissistic,
[1:27:42] Bob Dobbs: involved in his own reality.
[1:27:44] Bob Dobbs: Remember how he liked to quote,
[1:27:46] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:27:47] Bob Dobbs: this famous criminal who comes out of jail and said,
[1:27:52] Bob Dobbs: what are you looking forward to now that you're not in jail?
[1:27:56] Bob Dobbs: He said,
[1:27:56] Bob Dobbs: solitude.
[1:28:00] Bob Dobbs: You know that quote?
[1:28:01] Cameron McEwen: I do remember that,
[1:28:02] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[1:28:02] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:28:02] Cameron McEwen: I forget where it is,
[1:28:04] Cameron McEwen: but I remember seeing the quote.
[1:28:05] Bob Dobbs: I think it's in Take Today.
[1:28:07] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:28:08] Bob Dobbs: the guy,
[1:28:08] Bob Dobbs: he had no solitude in jail for all the years he was in there.
[1:28:12] Bob Dobbs: And so he was stuck in tribal noise,
[1:28:16] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:28:17] Bob Dobbs: So he saw the value of isolation and separateness.
[1:28:21] Bob Dobbs: He said,
[1:28:21] Bob Dobbs: man,
[1:28:21] Bob Dobbs: I can't wait to be isolated.
[1:28:23] Bob Dobbs: And yet you think he's isolated in prison.
[1:28:26] Bob Dobbs: He's not.
[1:28:27] Bob Dobbs: There's a deeper isolation.
[1:28:29] Bob Dobbs: That's an important story.
[1:28:31] Bob Dobbs: He means isolated,
[1:28:32] Bob Dobbs: separate,
[1:28:33] Bob Dobbs: narcissistic,
[1:28:33] Bob Dobbs: involved in his own reality.
[1:28:36] Bob Dobbs: Narcissistic,
[1:28:37] Bob Dobbs: that's debatable,
[1:28:38] Bob Dobbs: but maybe.
[1:28:40] Bob Dobbs: That's why I quote the ninth,
[1:28:42] Bob Dobbs: what did you say?
[1:28:43] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:28:43] Cameron McEwen: we need to keep in mind the duality that we were talking about earlier.
[1:28:47] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:28:48] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[1:28:48] Cameron McEwen: The separateness,
[1:28:50] Cameron McEwen: there's a good and a bad separateness,
[1:28:52] Cameron McEwen: there's a good and a bad private,
[1:28:56] Cameron McEwen: good and bad isolated,
[1:28:58] Cameron McEwen: et cetera.
[1:28:59] Bob Dobbs: And,
[1:28:59] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:29:00] Bob Dobbs: there's been commentary the last five or six years about...
[1:29:03] Bob Dobbs: the growing narcissism in our society.
[1:29:06] Bob Dobbs: That's the autonomy we're talking about,
[1:29:09] Bob Dobbs: with a negative spin on it.
[1:29:10] Bob Dobbs: But people are becoming apparently narcissistic.
[1:29:14] Bob Dobbs: No,
[1:29:15] Bob Dobbs: they're too involved in creating their own reality because there's no guidelines that anybody else could recognize,
[1:29:21] Bob Dobbs: other than their own effort to suffer and struggle through making some sense of the moment for a while.
[1:29:29] Bob Dobbs: Then that's going to be collapsed,
[1:29:30] Bob Dobbs: and they got to do it again.
[1:29:32] Bob Dobbs: You get me?
[1:29:33] Bob Dobbs: So that looks like narcissism happening in society.
[1:29:39] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:29:39] Cameron McEwen: well,
[1:29:39] Cameron McEwen: I personally,
[1:29:40] Cameron McEwen: I think it is a narcissism,
[1:29:42] Cameron McEwen: but it's a narcissism that hasn't recognized its own vacuity.
[1:29:48] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:29:49] Bob Dobbs: its own ground.
[1:29:50] Bob Dobbs: We are providing a solution to the narcissism,
[1:29:53] Bob Dobbs: the unconscious new condition that people have put into,
[1:29:57] Bob Dobbs: as expressed in the prospect interview,
[1:30:00] Bob Dobbs: that no one has addressed.
[1:30:02] Bob Dobbs: now it's
[1:30:02] Bob Dobbs: It's probably addressed journalistically.
[1:30:04] Bob Dobbs: People are always saying,
[1:30:05] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[1:30:05] Bob Dobbs: people are all by themselves or isolated and blah,
[1:30:08] Bob Dobbs: It's always journalistic valuations and subjective concerns about it.
[1:30:17] Bob Dobbs: No technical talk about it.
[1:30:19] Bob Dobbs: We're talking technically about this,
[1:30:23] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:30:24] Cameron McEwen: Yes,
[1:30:24] Cameron McEwen: sir.
[1:30:24] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:30:25] Bob Dobbs: So I say that's why I quote the 1970 statement.
[1:30:28] Bob Dobbs: That's the Rolling Stone statement.
[1:30:31] Bob Dobbs: It's a rare one-time quotation talking about the human social condition before the establishment of tribal life.
[1:30:37] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:30:39] Bob Dobbs: I,
[1:30:40] Bob Dobbs: Ned,
[1:30:40] Bob Dobbs: didn't know these other quotes,
[1:30:41] Bob Dobbs: never found them again,
[1:30:43] Bob Dobbs: didn't notice them.
[1:30:44] Bob Dobbs: So
[1:30:44] Bob Dobbs: I'm talking from,
[1:30:46] Bob Dobbs: so that's why this dialogue about the book is an important part of the book,
[1:30:50] Bob Dobbs: because we're adding things to what the book has said,
[1:30:54] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:30:55] Bob Dobbs: two years ago.
[1:30:56] Bob Dobbs: And we're adding the quotes that McLuhan's cousin,
[1:30:59] Bob Dobbs: Cameron McLuhan,
[1:31:00] Bob Dobbs: found.
[1:31:01] Bob Dobbs: Strange character.
[1:31:03] Bob Dobbs: And have you ever thought about that,
[1:31:05] Bob Dobbs: how your name is like McLuhan?
[1:31:08] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:31:09] Cameron McEwen: we're both Scots.
[1:31:12] Cameron McEwen: His family was from
[1:31:14] Cameron McEwen: Northern Ireland,
[1:31:15] Cameron McEwen: but
[1:31:16] Cameron McEwen: Northern Irish are Scots.
[1:31:19] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[1:31:20] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:31:21] Bob Dobbs: so what is the name of the region?
[1:31:26] Bob Dobbs: What county is that?
[1:31:30] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:31:30] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[1:31:31] Cameron McEwen: it's more than one county,
[1:31:32] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:31:33] Cameron McEwen: It's county down.
[1:31:35] Cameron McEwen: There's several counties up there.
[1:31:37] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[1:31:38] Bob Dobbs: Is that
[1:31:39] Bob Dobbs: Northern Ireland,
[1:31:40] Bob Dobbs: Belfast area,
[1:31:41] Bob Dobbs: the Protestant part?
[1:31:42] Cameron McEwen: Yes.
[1:31:43] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[1:31:44] Cameron McEwen: That's where he was from.
[1:31:45] Bob Dobbs: All right.
[1:31:46] Bob Dobbs: And you're from there?
[1:31:47] Cameron McEwen: No.
[1:31:49] Cameron McEwen: I do have an Irish great-grandfather,
[1:31:52] Cameron McEwen: but he was from the south,
[1:31:53] Cameron McEwen: from Cork.
[1:31:55] Cameron McEwen: But most of my family...
[1:31:57] Cameron McEwen: It's from Scotland,
[1:31:58] Cameron McEwen: and some of it is still there.
[1:32:01] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[1:32:05] Bob Dobbs: So that's why I quote the 1970 statement.
[1:32:07] Bob Dobbs: It's a rare one-time quotation talking about the human social condition before the establishment of tribal life,
[1:32:13] Bob Dobbs: which is...
[1:32:14] Cameron McEwen: And it occurs to me that the separateness of man,
[1:32:20] Cameron McEwen: that could be a description of Christ.
[1:32:27] Cameron McEwen: Christ is separate within the Trinity,
[1:32:30] Cameron McEwen: and he's also separate as a man,
[1:32:35] Cameron McEwen: ecce homo.
[1:32:37] Bob Dobbs: Like a what?
[1:32:38] Bob Dobbs: A what?
[1:32:39] Bob Dobbs: A homeless?
[1:32:40] Cameron McEwen: No,
[1:32:41] Cameron McEwen: ecce homo,
[1:32:42] Cameron McEwen: the Latin phrase.
[1:32:44] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:32:44] Cameron McEwen: You know,
[1:32:45] Cameron McEwen: that man.
[1:32:48] Bob Dobbs: So he is put on the separateness of the human condition.
[1:32:55] Cameron McEwen: Well.
[1:32:56] Cameron McEwen: Or the inverse of that,
[1:32:59] Cameron McEwen: in the incarnation he does that,
[1:33:02] Cameron McEwen: but prior to that he is the separate man within the Trinity.
[1:33:09] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:33:11] Bob Dobbs: and then they wondered if that was equal to God or not.
[1:33:18] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:33:20] Cameron McEwen: that was the driver of many of the heresies.
[1:33:25] Cameron McEwen: had to do with that question.
[1:33:27] Cameron McEwen: And
[1:33:28] Cameron McEwen: Joyce talks about that a lot in the library chapter in
[1:33:33] Cameron McEwen: Ulysses.
[1:33:34] Bob Dobbs: So off the top of my head,
[1:33:36] Bob Dobbs: first impulse is to say,
[1:33:39] Bob Dobbs: The heresy is detecting it's anti-tribal,
[1:33:44] Bob Dobbs: anti-social.
[1:33:45] Bob Dobbs: It's not enjoying the comforts of tribal loyalties and being human.
[1:33:51] Bob Dobbs: So that pre-cultural condition is seen as a heresy by the church,
[1:34:01] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:34:01] Bob Dobbs: Because it's holding together the following condition of tribal comforts.
[1:34:09] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:34:09] Cameron McEwen: the heresies mostly said that either
[1:34:20] Cameron McEwen: Christ was actually God or that
[1:34:26] Cameron McEwen: Christ was actually only man.
[1:34:29] Cameron McEwen: And the heresies went in both directions,
[1:34:33] Cameron McEwen: whereas the
[1:34:34] Cameron McEwen: Catholic-slash-Orthodox position
[1:34:39] Cameron McEwen: was that Christ was both.
[1:34:42] Cameron McEwen: So the separateness of man is both.
[1:34:54] Cameron McEwen: It's the fission that is a part of the fusion.
[1:34:57] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:34:59] Bob Dobbs: So then,
[1:35:02] Bob Dobbs: I think I have something to say about that.
[1:35:04] Bob Dobbs: So the...
[1:35:08] Bob Dobbs: Um,
[1:35:12] Bob Dobbs: culture can't address that issue,
[1:35:15] Bob Dobbs: because you're into speech,
[1:35:17] Bob Dobbs: and you require matching.
[1:35:19] Bob Dobbs: So,
[1:35:20] Bob Dobbs: isn't that like,
[1:35:21] Bob Dobbs: um,
[1:35:22] Bob Dobbs: Wittgenstein?
[1:35:24] Bob Dobbs: There are things we cannot speak.
[1:35:27] Cameron McEwen: Correct.
[1:35:27] Bob Dobbs: That famous line.
[1:35:28] Bob Dobbs: So,
[1:35:29] Bob Dobbs: he's pointing to,
[1:35:30] Bob Dobbs: uh,
[1:35:33] Bob Dobbs: the beginning of retrieving autonomous man beyond culture.
[1:35:39] Bob Dobbs: Coming in 100 years ago with the electric anarchy,
[1:35:42] Bob Dobbs: the electric obliteration of Gutenberg,
[1:35:44] Bob Dobbs: and maybe that's what he was picking up on.
[1:35:47] Bob Dobbs: He was intuiting this new isolated separateness condition or its retrieval.
[1:35:55] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:35:55] Cameron McEwen: so you could say that the separateness of man,
[1:36:00] Cameron McEwen: in one respect,
[1:36:01] Cameron McEwen: has to do with the fact that when we begin,
[1:36:06] Cameron McEwen: for example,
[1:36:07] Cameron McEwen: begin to speak,
[1:36:09] Cameron McEwen: or begin to feel or begin to look,
[1:36:14] Cameron McEwen: we've already determined ourselves.
[1:36:18] Cameron McEwen: So the separateness of man is that we are always already separated.
[1:36:27] Cameron McEwen: And the only way in which we can regain our wholeness is to go back before we began.
[1:36:37] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:36:39] Cameron McEwen: And that's a very tricky sort of somersault motion that
[1:36:46] Cameron McEwen: I believe McLuhan talks about a lot,
[1:36:49] Cameron McEwen: but it's something that normally people can't read it because they read it in their terms rather than seeing their terms in terms of it.
[1:37:04] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:37:04] Bob Dobbs: so when
[1:37:06] Bob Dobbs: Buddhism or Zen says the mind,
[1:37:08] Bob Dobbs: is our problem,
[1:37:10] Bob Dobbs: what to do with the mind.
[1:37:12] Bob Dobbs: And you somehow got to get over the mind without losing it.
[1:37:16] Bob Dobbs: You were just expressing that dilemma.
[1:37:19] Bob Dobbs: And so in simple terms,
[1:37:22] Bob Dobbs: what do you do with the mind?
[1:37:25] Bob Dobbs: And that's,
[1:37:29] Bob Dobbs: you say,
[1:37:29] Bob Dobbs: the very tricky use of the mind without being trapped by it.
[1:37:35] Cameron McEwen: Correct.
[1:37:36] Bob Dobbs: That's the trick of...
[1:37:39] Bob Dobbs: enlightened social interaction.
[1:37:45] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:37:45] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:37:45] Cameron McEwen: It's the heart of understanding separateness.
[1:37:49] Bob Dobbs: So would you say that all the great philosophers were dealing with that question?
[1:37:55] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:37:55] Cameron McEwen: in order to be a great philosopher,
[1:37:57] Cameron McEwen: you have to touch on that question.
[1:38:00] Cameron McEwen: You don't necessarily have to focus on it,
[1:38:03] Cameron McEwen: but the truly great philosophers do focus on it.
[1:38:12] Cameron McEwen: And that's where McLuhan is part of that tradition.
[1:38:13] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:38:13] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[1:38:14] Cameron McEwen: because McLuhan didn't really care about precision and definition and stuff,
[1:38:20] Cameron McEwen: I don't know that you would say he was part of that tradition.
[1:38:23] Cameron McEwen: But what McLuhan did that's so interesting to me,
[1:38:27] Cameron McEwen: at least,
[1:38:28] Cameron McEwen: is that
[1:38:30] Cameron McEwen: He undertook to rethink all of these questions that generate the philosophical tradition.
[1:38:40] Cameron McEwen: So he tried,
[1:38:41] Cameron McEwen: with McLuhan,
[1:38:42] Cameron McEwen: you can go back before these things have achieved formulation and try to think through how to formulate them.
[1:38:51] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:38:51] Bob Dobbs: probably most of the greats were still within a bit of a cultural hypnosis.
[1:38:58] Bob Dobbs: When you come to the end of the...
[1:38:59] Bob Dobbs: of the line today that McLuhan is the thinker of that.
[1:39:04] Bob Dobbs: He sees the end.
[1:39:05] Bob Dobbs: He sees why he can be vague.
[1:39:09] Cameron McEwen: Yes.
[1:39:11] Cameron McEwen: Why he needs to be vague in a certain sense.
[1:39:13] Bob Dobbs: Beg your pardon?
[1:39:15] Cameron McEwen: Why he needs to be vague in a certain sense.
[1:39:17] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[1:39:17] Bob Dobbs: include that part of the expression of the spectrum.
[1:39:21] Bob Dobbs: So then we come to an important quote,
[1:39:24] Bob Dobbs: 1947.
[1:39:27] Bob Dobbs: His essay,
[1:39:27] Bob Dobbs: Inside Blake in Hollywood,
[1:39:29] Bob Dobbs: from the Sewanee Review,
[1:39:29] Bob Dobbs: October 47,
[1:39:30] Bob Dobbs: pages 714 to 715,
[1:39:34] Bob Dobbs: volume 55.
[1:39:35] Bob Dobbs: So he says,
[1:39:37] Bob Dobbs: For all the conscious intellectual activity of an industrial society,
[1:39:41] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[1:39:41] Bob Dobbs: he's explaining.
[1:39:42] Bob Dobbs: For all the conscious intellectual activity of an industrial society is directed to non-human ends.
[1:39:48] Bob Dobbs: Its human dimensions are systematically distorted by every conscious resource,
[1:39:53] Bob Dobbs: while the unconscious and commercially unutilized powers struggle...
[1:39:56] Bob Dobbs: dimly to restore balance and order by homeopathic means.
[1:40:01] Bob Dobbs: Wow,
[1:40:01] Bob Dobbs: what a statement.
[1:40:03] Cameron McEwen: I know you like the word homeopathic.
[1:40:05] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:40:06] Bob Dobbs: that's addressing what we're talking about.
[1:40:08] Bob Dobbs: When you mentioned the word evokes all words,
[1:40:11] Bob Dobbs: that's the hologramic,
[1:40:14] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:40:15] Bob Dobbs: The whole idea that everything is contained in little particles is in the larger structure.
[1:40:20] Bob Dobbs: And then I put the two together,
[1:40:22] Bob Dobbs: so I'm leading into this new idea of the homeopathic,
[1:40:24] Bob Dobbs: the hologram of the global theater.
[1:40:26] Bob Dobbs: And it's increasing homeopathic shrinking,
[1:40:30] Bob Dobbs: which,
[1:40:31] Bob Dobbs: remember,
[1:40:31] Bob Dobbs: homeopathy is about the shrinking,
[1:40:34] Bob Dobbs: but memory is retained.
[1:40:36] Bob Dobbs: The memory of the substance,
[1:40:38] Bob Dobbs: or whatever it is,
[1:40:39] Bob Dobbs: is still there,
[1:40:40] Bob Dobbs: even though it's becoming more and more non-existing.
[1:40:44] Bob Dobbs: That's the homeopathic principle.
[1:40:46] Bob Dobbs: So that's what's happening to us,
[1:40:48] Bob Dobbs: the shrinking,
[1:40:50] Bob Dobbs: the disappearance of us.
[1:40:53] Bob Dobbs: That's going into the overwhelmed electric tactility squared where we lose something.
[1:41:00] Bob Dobbs: Is it memory?
[1:41:02] Bob Dobbs: Not necessarily.
[1:41:05] Bob Dobbs: What is it that's left?
[1:41:08] Bob Dobbs: Or what is it that survives the obliteration of the Gutenbergian?
[1:41:15] Bob Dobbs: So,
[1:41:15] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:41:16] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan says in Understanding Media that monofracture by fragment by manufacture.
[1:41:22] Bob Dobbs: I think that's the phrase,
[1:41:23] Bob Dobbs: manufacturer by manufacturer.
[1:41:26] Bob Dobbs: He's talking about the glorious service of the Gutenberg Galaxy,
[1:41:31] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:41:32] Bob Dobbs: It's bringing heightened individuality by its visual bias,
[1:41:38] Bob Dobbs: and it's got to figure out how to survive the electric swamp,
[1:41:42] Bob Dobbs: the deep state.
[1:41:45] Bob Dobbs: The deep state's going to wipe you out.
[1:41:48] Bob Dobbs: So it's human dimensions.
[1:41:51] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:41:52] Bob Dobbs: a lot of humanity is created by visual space,
[1:41:57] Bob Dobbs: by the alphabet and then the printing press.
[1:42:00] Bob Dobbs: Before that,
[1:42:00] Bob Dobbs: everybody's an expendable slave,
[1:42:02] Bob Dobbs: right,
[1:42:03] Bob Dobbs: for the pharaoh.
[1:42:05] Bob Dobbs: There's no subjectivity or something.
[1:42:08] Bob Dobbs: For all the conscious intellectual activity of industrial society is directed to non-human ends.
[1:42:15] Bob Dobbs: So we're all going non-human,
[1:42:19] Bob Dobbs: and that includes the electric effect.
[1:42:21] Bob Dobbs: So what is the human that is enhanced by the Gutenbergian?
[1:42:25] Bob Dobbs: Its human dimensions are systematically distorted by every conscious resource.
[1:42:30] Bob Dobbs: So that means every new usable technology,
[1:42:34] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:42:34] Bob Dobbs: A conscious resource?
[1:42:37] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.
[1:42:38] Cameron McEwen: Even slang.
[1:42:39] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:42:43] Cameron McEwen: New clothing,
[1:42:44] Cameron McEwen: new music.
[1:42:45] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:42:46] Bob Dobbs: While the unconscious and commercially unutilized powers
[1:42:52] Bob Dobbs: You can't commercialize Menippean satire,
[1:42:54] Bob Dobbs: it seems,
[1:42:55] Bob Dobbs: but today we can.
[1:42:58] Bob Dobbs: But we couldn't,
[1:42:59] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan's day and before.
[1:43:01] Bob Dobbs: While the unconscious and commercially unutilized powers,
[1:43:06] Bob Dobbs: that's the services of metaphysical condition,
[1:43:10] Bob Dobbs: of the original condition,
[1:43:12] Bob Dobbs: struggled dimly to restore balance and order by homeopathic means,
[1:43:17] Bob Dobbs: which would mean doing more with less.
[1:43:20] Bob Dobbs: Why McLuhan,
[1:43:22] Bob Dobbs: all his books are repetitions.
[1:43:24] Bob Dobbs: He's not making creative affluence,
[1:43:28] Bob Dobbs: Baroque spirals.
[1:43:29] Bob Dobbs: keeping it simple.
[1:43:31] Bob Dobbs: Do you know what I mean?
[1:43:31] Bob Dobbs: He's being homeopathic.
[1:43:33] Bob Dobbs: He sticks with the memory of what should be remembered.
[1:43:38] Bob Dobbs: That's what he's expressing in all his books.
[1:43:41] Cameron McEwen: Sure.
[1:43:41] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:43:43] Cameron McEwen: if you don't believe in some sort of linear progress,
[1:43:47] Cameron McEwen: if you don't believe there's anywhere to go,
[1:43:50] Cameron McEwen: then that's inevitable,
[1:43:53] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:43:53] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:43:54] Bob Dobbs: You then run on the spot homeopathically,
[1:43:57] Bob Dobbs: slowly erode yourself.
[1:44:00] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:44:01] Bob Dobbs: maintaining awareness that you're still here.
[1:44:06] Bob Dobbs: So
[1:44:08] Bob Dobbs: I don't know what he means by homeopathic means,
[1:44:12] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:44:13] Bob Dobbs: He doesn't explain that.
[1:44:15] Bob Dobbs: That's where he was aware of alternative medicine and all that stuff.
[1:44:19] Bob Dobbs: Maybe he got it from his parents.
[1:44:20] Bob Dobbs: But this is really early.
[1:44:24] Bob Dobbs: Even though people were aware of homeopathy before...
[1:44:28] Bob Dobbs: The Germans and Rockefellers,
[1:44:30] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:44:30] Bob Dobbs: changed the medical schools in the 20s.
[1:44:33] Bob Dobbs: That's Carolyn's history she talks about.
[1:44:36] Bob Dobbs: So there were a lot of homeopaths in the end of the 19th century.
[1:44:40] Bob Dobbs: So what do you think he means,
[1:44:43] Bob Dobbs: different from what I'm saying?
[1:44:45] Bob Dobbs: Dimly to restore balance and order by homeopathic means.
[1:44:48] Bob Dobbs: Does that mean doing more by less?
[1:44:51] Cameron McEwen: I think so.
[1:44:53] Cameron McEwen: I think he's talking about...
[1:44:56] Cameron McEwen: the force of the unutilized.
[1:45:00] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:45:01] Bob Dobbs: right.
[1:45:02] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:45:02] Bob Dobbs: because small is powerful.
[1:45:04] Bob Dobbs: So the unconscious and commercially unutilized powers are there.
[1:45:10] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:45:11] Bob Dobbs: digital media is homeopathic in the sense that it hoiks up the individual through co-anesthesia,
[1:45:18] Bob Dobbs: puts you in the driver's seat more and more,
[1:45:21] Bob Dobbs: and you don't have to do much to communicate.
[1:45:26] Bob Dobbs: Just press a button,
[1:45:28] Bob Dobbs: turn on the mic.
[1:45:30] Bob Dobbs: So the electric and the digital is naturally homeopathic,
[1:45:33] Bob Dobbs: doing more with less.
[1:45:36] Cameron McEwen: But at the same time,
[1:45:38] Cameron McEwen: as he says in the quote,
[1:45:41] Cameron McEwen: human dimensions are systematically distorted.
[1:45:44] Cameron McEwen: So this person sitting in the driver's seat thinks that he or she is gaining ground.
[1:45:55] Cameron McEwen: But actually,
[1:45:56] Cameron McEwen: they're losing ground at an accelerating rate.
[1:46:00] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:46:02] Bob Dobbs: Marshall McLuhan is not interested in cultural fame or any of those normal awards or achievements and recognition by the culture.
[1:46:12] Bob Dobbs: He's staying outside of those issues.
[1:46:19] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:46:23] Cameron McEwen: he was always...
[1:46:25] Cameron McEwen: interested in the phenomenon of fame.
[1:46:29] Cameron McEwen: He believed that fame could be manufactured and then he proved it,
[1:46:35] Cameron McEwen: that fame is a commodity that we now manufacture.
[1:46:41] Bob Dobbs: How did he prove that?
[1:46:43] Cameron McEwen: By becoming famous.
[1:46:44] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:46:45] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[1:46:45] Bob Dobbs: he acted it out,
[1:46:46] Bob Dobbs: showed the drama,
[1:46:47] Bob Dobbs: and remained detached.
[1:46:49] Bob Dobbs: I always remember talking to Maurice McLuhan around 71 and he said,
[1:46:54] Bob Dobbs: Marshall will not be doing lectures in public.
[1:46:57] Bob Dobbs: He's going to withdraw for a while.
[1:46:59] Bob Dobbs: There was the media ecology.
[1:47:02] Bob Dobbs: He didn't have to keep being famous and making more novels.
[1:47:06] Bob Dobbs: He could retreat and be a nobody.
[1:47:10] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[1:47:12] Bob Dobbs: And that's homeopathic.
[1:47:14] Bob Dobbs: So I got that when Maurice told me.
[1:47:17] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:47:17] Bob Dobbs: he actually,
[1:47:18] Bob Dobbs: they made a point of telling people this at the front desk.
[1:47:21] Bob Dobbs: He was the George Thompson.
[1:47:22] Bob Dobbs: his brother before George was.
[1:47:24] Bob Dobbs: So he's the guy at the front desk and somehow get into a conversation.
[1:47:28] Bob Dobbs: And he said that to me,
[1:47:30] Bob Dobbs: which was very interesting.
[1:47:31] Bob Dobbs: I'm glad he did.
[1:47:33] Bob Dobbs: It's like a very confidential statement,
[1:47:36] Bob Dobbs: unless he was always saying it to people.
[1:47:38] Bob Dobbs: But it's interesting saying we are retreating.
[1:47:41] Bob Dobbs: We've had enough noise.
[1:47:43] Bob Dobbs: We've been part of the noise.
[1:47:44] Bob Dobbs: And actually,
[1:47:44] Bob Dobbs: people are turning against us.
[1:47:47] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:47:47] Bob Dobbs: Liz Jeffrey's Ph.D.
[1:47:50] Bob Dobbs: And so I'll just.
[1:47:52] Bob Dobbs: I don't need to be fighting all the time,
[1:47:56] Bob Dobbs: you know.
[1:47:57] Bob Dobbs: So he went homeopathic.
[1:48:00] Bob Dobbs: So that's pretty neat to talk about that.
[1:48:03] Bob Dobbs: So then where do I go next?
[1:48:06] Cameron McEwen: Just maybe let me ask a question.
[1:48:12] Cameron McEwen: Just a little while ago,
[1:48:13] Cameron McEwen: you said something like,
[1:48:16] Cameron McEwen: everything is in the wake,
[1:48:18] Cameron McEwen: just like everything is in the tech body.
[1:48:23] Cameron McEwen: And you seem to be saying that there's a negative side to the wake.
[1:48:32] Bob Dobbs: No,
[1:48:32] Bob Dobbs: no.
[1:48:33] Bob Dobbs: It's predicting what technology will create.
[1:48:37] Bob Dobbs: The tech body,
[1:48:38] Bob Dobbs: it's just like Google and that.
[1:48:40] Bob Dobbs: They got a lot of stuff in them.
[1:48:42] Cameron McEwen: So is there a good side to the tech body then?
[1:48:46] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:48:47] Bob Dobbs: It's going to bring a lot of pleasure,
[1:48:50] Bob Dobbs: paradise to people.
[1:48:52] Bob Dobbs: But it is a comfort,
[1:48:54] Bob Dobbs: and you'll lose your ability to suffer.
[1:48:58] Bob Dobbs: It's like a soma.
[1:49:00] Bob Dobbs: This is what iON says,
[1:49:01] Bob Dobbs: the tech body is going to solve everybody's problems.
[1:49:05] Bob Dobbs: Even our cold fusion,
[1:49:07] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:49:07] Bob Dobbs: our endless electricity device is part of making a better situation for people to live more comfortable and not be based on oil consciousness.
[1:49:19] Bob Dobbs: Oil technologies,
[1:49:20] Bob Dobbs: no pollution.
[1:49:22] Bob Dobbs: I can see the seduction of the unfolding of a better technological environment that our technology is going to do.
[1:49:31] Bob Dobbs: I'm not fooled by that.
[1:49:32] Bob Dobbs: I'm detached from the success of it.
[1:49:36] Bob Dobbs: But it's inevitable.
[1:49:38] Bob Dobbs: This technological paradise is inevitable.
[1:49:41] Bob Dobbs: As I used to say,
[1:49:42] Bob Dobbs: there may not be many people around to enjoy it,
[1:49:46] Bob Dobbs: but it will happen of its own course.
[1:49:50] Bob Dobbs: Joyce saw where technology was going,
[1:49:53] Bob Dobbs: so he anticipated the tech body.
[1:49:54] Bob Dobbs: And that's what McLuhan saw.
[1:49:56] Bob Dobbs: iON says McLuhan was the first to really see the tech body.
[1:50:02] Bob Dobbs: So I see his talking about Finnegans Wake is his way of saying what the tech body is going to be.
[1:50:11] Bob Dobbs: The Android meme is an earlier phase of that.
[1:50:17] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:50:17] Cameron McEwen: so I...
[1:50:20] Cameron McEwen: still do not really understand the difference between the Android meme and the tech body.
[1:50:31] Cameron McEwen: So that's something that we can kind of aim at.
[1:50:33] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:50:33] Bob Dobbs: let's see if I can explain that.
[1:50:34] Bob Dobbs: We'll see if that unfolds in the rest of the book.
[1:50:37] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:50:37] Cameron McEwen: okay,
[1:50:38] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[1:50:38] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:50:38] Bob Dobbs: that's the question.
[1:50:39] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:50:39] Bob Dobbs: that's good.
[1:50:41] Bob Dobbs: So after that quote about homeopathy,
[1:50:44] Bob Dobbs: get to page 130,
[1:50:47] Bob Dobbs: and that's where I talk a bit about that quote.
[1:50:49] Bob Dobbs: I say all of it.
[1:50:51] Bob Dobbs: quote,
[1:50:51] Bob Dobbs: is directed to non-human ends.
[1:50:54] Bob Dobbs: That's the mechanical Gutenberg era,
[1:50:57] Bob Dobbs: because you remember McLuhan talks about in Take Today,
[1:51:01] Bob Dobbs: the mechanization of humans is balanced off by the superhumanization of humans in the electric age.
[1:51:09] Bob Dobbs: The superhumanization.
[1:51:11] Bob Dobbs: That's important.
[1:51:12] Bob Dobbs: There's a,
[1:51:14] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:51:14] Bob Dobbs: the end of Take Today is saying,
[1:51:18] Bob Dobbs: The supernatural.
[1:51:19] Bob Dobbs: Some will call this supernatural.
[1:51:21] Bob Dobbs: You know that quote at the end,
[1:51:24] Bob Dobbs: when the recently achieved forms of consciousness,
[1:51:28] Bob Dobbs: and asked Barrington Nevitt,
[1:51:29] Bob Dobbs: what's that?
[1:51:29] Bob Dobbs: And he said,
[1:51:30] Bob Dobbs: Finnegans Wake.
[1:51:32] Bob Dobbs: This is the last paragraph in Take Today,
[1:51:34] Bob Dobbs: the yestermorrow.
[1:51:36] Bob Dobbs: I think it is the last paragraph.
[1:51:38] Bob Dobbs: So,
[1:51:41] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan says,
[1:51:42] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:51:42] Bob Dobbs: this amazing abundance of something.
[1:51:46] Bob Dobbs: He said,
[1:51:46] Bob Dobbs: some will consider it supernatural,
[1:51:49] Bob Dobbs: whatever that means,
[1:51:50] Bob Dobbs: but it's an important distinction.
[1:51:53] Bob Dobbs: So all of it is directed to non-human ends.
[1:51:59] Bob Dobbs: That's the dehumanization of the Gutenberg era,
[1:52:03] Bob Dobbs: but I call it the mechanical Gutenberg era because the electric age turns us back to human-scale conditions,
[1:52:10] Bob Dobbs: but also superhuman,
[1:52:12] Bob Dobbs: and is organic and alive.
[1:52:14] Bob Dobbs: It's not dead.
[1:52:17] Bob Dobbs: Then I quote McLuhan,
[1:52:18] Bob Dobbs: His human dimensions are systematically distorted by every conscious resource,
[1:52:22] Bob Dobbs: while the unconscious and commercially unutilized powers struggle dimly to restore balance and order by homeopathic means.
[1:52:29] Bob Dobbs: Unquote.
[1:52:30] Bob Dobbs: So then I say,
[1:52:31] Bob Dobbs: I was discussing this with someone else the other day who knew about homeopathy.
[1:52:35] Bob Dobbs: I said,
[1:52:37] Bob Dobbs: quote,
[1:52:37] Bob Dobbs: look at this.
[1:52:38] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan's talking about homeopathy as a metaphor 70 years ago.
[1:52:43] Bob Dobbs: And so I'm just pointing out,
[1:52:45] Bob Dobbs: wow,
[1:52:45] Bob Dobbs: look at that.
[1:52:46] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan knew,
[1:52:47] Bob Dobbs: so I was saying that to somebody,
[1:52:48] Bob Dobbs: which I've done many times.
[1:52:52] Bob Dobbs: So then I quote the article,
[1:52:53] Bob Dobbs: the quote,
[1:52:54] Bob Dobbs: its human dimensions are systematically distorted by every conscious resource while,
[1:52:59] Bob Dobbs: and then I say,
[1:53:01] Bob Dobbs: end of quote,
[1:53:01] Bob Dobbs: the human dimensions are distorted while the industrial entities attempt to retrieve some semblance of human scale by applying futile and puny homeopathic means.
[1:53:12] Bob Dobbs: So,
[1:53:13] Bob Dobbs: You're getting the electric age is retrieving human scale virtually,
[1:53:18] Bob Dobbs: so it's not really.
[1:53:21] Bob Dobbs: It's an environment by default,
[1:53:25] Bob Dobbs: like the tech body.
[1:53:26] Bob Dobbs: It's an environment by default.
[1:53:31] Cameron McEwen: Don't we have to say that,
[1:53:33] Cameron McEwen: for example,
[1:53:34] Cameron McEwen: with the prospect essay,
[1:53:38] Cameron McEwen: that electronic conditions create the means or create the situation in which people can become awake?
[1:53:50] Cameron McEwen: much.
[1:53:51] Cameron McEwen: At the very same time,
[1:53:53] Cameron McEwen: it creates the conditions for sleep.
[1:53:56] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[1:53:56] Bob Dobbs: because they don't know what woke them up.
[1:54:01] Bob Dobbs: See,
[1:54:02] Bob Dobbs: the becoming awake is a pseudo-event,
[1:54:06] Bob Dobbs: because you have to be aware that the electric age woke you up from the Gutenberg.
[1:54:11] Bob Dobbs: That's what you're waking up.
[1:54:12] Bob Dobbs: That's not necessarily a comprehensive awakefulness.
[1:54:17] Bob Dobbs: So McLuhan called it millennial ecstasies.
[1:54:20] Bob Dobbs: The celebration of getting out of the prison of Gutenberg Galaxy is what the 60s were all about.
[1:54:28] Bob Dobbs: They thought they were being released into an open field,
[1:54:32] Bob Dobbs: but that open field was even more cage-like than the Gutenberg era.
[1:54:37] Bob Dobbs: And so you got the open society versus the closed society.
[1:54:40] Bob Dobbs: So the electric environment was retrieving the closed tribal society,
[1:54:44] Bob Dobbs: which we're now witnessing even more so.
[1:54:48] Cameron McEwen: So the...
[1:54:50] Cameron McEwen: The only way out of the wire cage,
[1:54:53] Cameron McEwen: according to McLuhan,
[1:54:54] Cameron McEwen: and he saw this very early,
[1:54:55] Cameron McEwen: the only way out of the wire cage is to understand all media.
[1:55:02] Bob Dobbs: By sitting there.
[1:55:04] Bob Dobbs: Don't go anywhere.
[1:55:05] Bob Dobbs: Stay home and contemplate it.
[1:55:08] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:55:08] Cameron McEwen: there is nowhere to go.
[1:55:10] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:55:10] Bob Dobbs: And you get to realize that more and more.
[1:55:15] Bob Dobbs: And that would be homeopathic.
[1:55:17] Bob Dobbs: That's like,
[1:55:17] Bob Dobbs: that's another aspect of doing more with less.
[1:55:20] Bob Dobbs: I mean,
[1:55:21] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan,
[1:55:22] Bob Dobbs: if people generally go out to socialize,
[1:55:24] Bob Dobbs: they get stimulated mentally,
[1:55:25] Bob Dobbs: emotionally,
[1:55:26] Bob Dobbs: different ways,
[1:55:27] Bob Dobbs: physically.
[1:55:28] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan said,
[1:55:29] Bob Dobbs: wow,
[1:55:29] Bob Dobbs: I've got everything right here.
[1:55:30] Bob Dobbs: I just need to turn TV on for five seconds and I'll get some patterns,
[1:55:35] Bob Dobbs: you know?
[1:55:36] Bob Dobbs: Instant people,
[1:55:37] Bob Dobbs: he says in the Playboy interview,
[1:55:38] Bob Dobbs: we're flooded by instant people,
[1:55:41] Bob Dobbs: instant social life.
[1:55:42] Bob Dobbs: So why go look for chemical bodies?
[1:55:46] Bob Dobbs: You can...
[1:55:49] Bob Dobbs: enjoy the stimulation of the electric situation.
[1:55:52] Bob Dobbs: So that's a kind of service,
[1:55:54] Bob Dobbs: but of course it's going to have a lot of disservices too for the consequences on older media.
[1:56:06] Bob Dobbs: So we're on 1.30.
[1:56:10] Cameron McEwen: You're about to get to one of your favorite passages from Counterblast.
[1:56:16] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[1:56:18] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:56:18] Bob Dobbs: so
[1:56:20] Bob Dobbs: 1.30, and I got down to the human dimensions are distorted while the industrial entities attempt to retrieve some semblance of human scale,
[1:56:26] Bob Dobbs: so you helped explain that.
[1:56:29] Bob Dobbs: The electric retrieves human scale,
[1:56:32] Bob Dobbs: in quotes,
[1:56:33] Bob Dobbs: by applying futile and puny homeopathic means.
[1:56:37] Bob Dobbs: That's me pointing out the disservices of...
[1:56:40] Bob Dobbs: homeopathic.
[1:56:43] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:56:44] Bob Dobbs: so then,
[1:56:45] Bob Dobbs: page 135,
[1:56:48] Bob Dobbs: Counterblast 1969.
[1:56:51] Bob Dobbs: So he's not private consciousness,
[1:56:53] Bob Dobbs: it's individual.
[1:56:54] Bob Dobbs: He says,
[1:56:55] Bob Dobbs: and no matter how many walls have fallen,
[1:56:58] Bob Dobbs: the citadel of individual consciousness,
[1:57:01] Bob Dobbs: now that's the original metaphysical mind,
[1:57:04] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:57:05] Bob Dobbs: Metaphysical man.
[1:57:06] Bob Dobbs: The citadel of individual consciousness has not fallen,
[1:57:09] Bob Dobbs: nor is it likely to fall,
[1:57:11] Bob Dobbs: for it is not accessible to the mass media.
[1:57:14] Bob Dobbs: I remember first reading that.
[1:57:16] Bob Dobbs: What?
[1:57:16] Bob Dobbs: We're just learning all about what media does to us.
[1:57:19] Bob Dobbs: What?
[1:57:19] Bob Dobbs: There's something there that's not affected by mass media,
[1:57:22] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:57:23] Bob Dobbs: I don't think many people have dealt with that statement.
[1:57:26] Bob Dobbs: It's like the big clunker in the middle of it all.
[1:57:28] Bob Dobbs: Sorry,
[1:57:29] Bob Dobbs: didn't mean anything I said in the last 70 pages.
[1:57:34] Bob Dobbs: There's something there that's not being affected.
[1:57:37] Bob Dobbs: Isn't that interesting?
[1:57:38] Cameron McEwen: Sure.
[1:57:40] Cameron McEwen: I think he's talking about the source of media.
[1:57:43] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:57:45] Cameron McEwen: The source of media can't fall to media.
[1:57:49] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[1:57:49] Bob Dobbs: And the separateness never goes away.
[1:57:52] Bob Dobbs: And it's also,
[1:57:58] Bob Dobbs: so you were just saying it's the source.
[1:57:59] Bob Dobbs: And I was thinking that it's,
[1:58:06] Bob Dobbs: I'm thinking of that,
[1:58:07] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:58:07] Bob Dobbs: the multiplicity is too much for humans.
[1:58:11] Bob Dobbs: So you're not being programmed anymore.
[1:58:17] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if that works,
[1:58:18] Bob Dobbs: but let's see what I say in my explanation below.
[1:58:24] Cameron McEwen: Go ahead.
[1:58:25] Bob Dobbs: So I say,
[1:58:26] Bob Dobbs: no matter how many walls have fallen,
[1:58:28] Bob Dobbs: the citadel of individual consciousness has not fallen,
[1:58:31] Bob Dobbs: nor is likely to fall.
[1:58:32] Bob Dobbs: So I quote it.
[1:58:33] Bob Dobbs: And I said,
[1:58:34] Bob Dobbs: Gnosticism believes it did fall.
[1:58:38] Bob Dobbs: And then I have the quote for it is not accessible to the mass media,
[1:58:41] Bob Dobbs: unquote.
[1:58:41] Bob Dobbs: And I say more autonomy for the individual.
[1:58:44] Bob Dobbs: So I understand the autonomy of Scott McLuhan's line,
[1:58:47] Bob Dobbs: the mass man is not tribal,
[1:58:48] Bob Dobbs: in my mind.
[1:58:49] Bob Dobbs: More autonomy for the individual.
[1:58:51] Bob Dobbs: We're beginning to move into the autonomous Anthropomorphic Physical social effect.
[1:58:56] Bob Dobbs: It's not blatant Anthropomorphic Physical or AAP,
[1:59:00] Bob Dobbs: but I've explained that memes are also coming out of it.
[1:59:04] Bob Dobbs: I'm attempting to describe how both conditions are happening.
[1:59:07] Bob Dobbs: The Android meme,
[1:59:08] Bob Dobbs: AM,
[1:59:09] Bob Dobbs: and the Anthropomorphic Physical,
[1:59:10] Bob Dobbs: AP,
[1:59:12] Bob Dobbs: the merger parallel to the separate intelligence.
[1:59:15] Bob Dobbs: These five separateness quotations above help to illustrate McLuhan's vision of what's unfolding toward full development.
[1:59:23] Bob Dobbs: Then I ask if that's final cause.
[1:59:26] Bob Dobbs: So what are the five quotes?
[1:59:27] Bob Dobbs: I'm going back up here.
[1:59:36] Bob Dobbs: So the prospect is one,
[1:59:40] Bob Dobbs: Rolling Stone is two,
[1:59:45] Cameron McEwen: the locomotive must be one,
[1:59:47] Bob Dobbs: three,
[1:59:49] Bob Dobbs: and then Blake and Hollywood four,
[1:59:51] Bob Dobbs: homeopathic.
[1:59:54] Bob Dobbs: So is there a fifth?
[1:59:58] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:59:58] Bob Dobbs: Counterblast.
[2:00:00] Bob Dobbs: Those are the five quotes.
[2:00:03] Bob Dobbs: The five separateness quotations dealing with this autonomy,
[2:00:06] Bob Dobbs: this little consciousness.
[2:00:08] Bob Dobbs: So,
[2:00:12] Bob Dobbs: I wonder whether there was another point there.
[2:00:17] Bob Dobbs: We are,
[2:00:18] Bob Dobbs: we're getting the separateness squared.
[2:00:21] Bob Dobbs: See,
[2:00:21] Bob Dobbs: I'm pointing out how
[2:00:22] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan said all media are pseudo-events.
[2:00:25] Bob Dobbs: So,
[2:00:27] Bob Dobbs: if you're a fully conscious being,
[2:00:30] Bob Dobbs: you wouldn't need any technologies.
[2:00:34] Bob Dobbs: So that's the romantic notion of being a god.
[2:00:37] Bob Dobbs: And you talk to Christians,
[2:00:40] Bob Dobbs: they don't like that idea that you can be a god.
[2:00:43] Bob Dobbs: Maybe they'll call that Gnosticism or heresy.
[2:00:46] Bob Dobbs: But that is an ongoing situation because the technology is making you a god.
[2:00:51] Bob Dobbs: The problem is it's an environment that's being done to you.
[2:00:55] Bob Dobbs: You're not doing it on your own.
[2:00:57] Bob Dobbs: Unless you say it's a collective effort of technology and everybody's contributed to make everything that we have today.
[2:01:03] Bob Dobbs: Right?
[2:01:05] Bob Dobbs: All the different contributions by cultures and societies inside the imperialist project,
[2:01:10] Bob Dobbs: you could say.
[2:01:12] Bob Dobbs: So this,
[2:01:14] Bob Dobbs: everybody's helping to make our prison.
[2:01:17] Bob Dobbs: It's going to be a very comfortable prison.
[2:01:21] Bob Dobbs: And you won't be able to escape by going to the guff.
[2:01:25] Bob Dobbs: That's the sad part.
[2:01:29] Bob Dobbs: So then...
[2:01:31] Bob Dobbs: I go into these imaginations.
[2:01:34] Bob Dobbs: What time is it?
[2:01:37] Bob Dobbs: Gone about for two hours.
[2:01:38] Bob Dobbs: I don't know.
[2:01:39] Bob Dobbs: Is there more to say?
[2:01:42] Bob Dobbs: Where am I going with this?
[2:01:44] Bob Dobbs: Coleridge,
[2:01:44] Bob Dobbs: which is primary and secondary imagination.
[2:01:48] Bob Dobbs: So I'm talking about tactility,
[2:01:50] Bob Dobbs: archetypes,
[2:01:53] Bob Dobbs: tactile interplay.
[2:01:54] Bob Dobbs: So
[2:01:55] Bob Dobbs: I think that's moving out of the separateness point.
[2:02:01] Bob Dobbs: I think we should save that for the next time.
[2:02:04] Cameron McEwen: Uh-huh.
[2:02:04] Bob Dobbs: But we can talk more about the separateness fact.
[2:02:09] Bob Dobbs: So the Anthropomorphic Physical is humans thinking there's still a human aspect.
[2:02:21] Cameron McEwen: So is it entirely an illusion or is it a last gasp?
[2:02:30] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:02:30] Bob Dobbs: I think it's both.
[2:02:33] Bob Dobbs: It's always going to be both.
[2:02:35] Bob Dobbs: It's simpler to say both.
[2:02:38] Bob Dobbs: It's hard to make a decision.
[2:02:40] Bob Dobbs: We're beginning to move into the autonomous Anthropomorphic Physical social effect.
[2:02:45] Bob Dobbs: So they teach courses in colleges now how we're in a post-human era.
[2:02:51] Bob Dobbs: So as we move to what people think is post-human,
[2:02:53] Bob Dobbs: that would be post-Gutenberg,
[2:02:57] Bob Dobbs: they're going to be massaged into a
[2:03:00] Bob Dobbs: like a brave new world kind of Soma,
[2:03:02] Bob Dobbs: but Soma is not a drug,
[2:03:03] Bob Dobbs: it's an environment,
[2:03:05] Bob Dobbs: it's a tech body.
[2:03:07] Bob Dobbs: So we're going to think that is an element of humanness,
[2:03:12] Bob Dobbs: or we accept the post-human as a success,
[2:03:17] Bob Dobbs: and we don't care about being human.
[2:03:19] Bob Dobbs: So that would be just endless semantics arguing over what do you describe,
[2:03:24] Bob Dobbs: how you describe what's happening.
[2:03:27] Bob Dobbs: So I say it's not blatant AP.
[2:03:30] Bob Dobbs: Not sure what I mean by that,
[2:03:32] Bob Dobbs: but I've explained that memes are also coming out of it.
[2:03:35] Bob Dobbs: So memes are creativity,
[2:03:37] Bob Dobbs: are culture.
[2:03:39] Bob Dobbs: So we're not this raw consciousness that I guess the Anthropomorphic Physical comes from.
[2:03:48] Bob Dobbs: So maybe I'm asking about what is the fate of the citadel of individual consciousness,
[2:03:53] Bob Dobbs: which is a lot of people would say that McLuhan couldn't take the...
[2:04:00] Bob Dobbs: The fall of the citadel of consciousness,
[2:04:01] Bob Dobbs: that it wasn't correct what he was saying.
[2:04:05] Bob Dobbs: A lot of people today would say all our separatenesses did collapse,
[2:04:11] Bob Dobbs: did fall,
[2:04:14] Bob Dobbs: but we seem to be saying,
[2:04:15] Bob Dobbs: no,
[2:04:16] Bob Dobbs: if you see this deeper,
[2:04:18] Bob Dobbs: you'll see there's a part of you that hasn't fallen or that you can invent a part of yourself that's not fallen.
[2:04:27] Bob Dobbs: So that was the wager,
[2:04:29] Bob Dobbs: they say.
[2:04:30] Bob Dobbs: That was the bet or the dream that something was preserved homeopathically,
[2:04:36] Bob Dobbs: a memory.
[2:04:38] Bob Dobbs: So those are all questions that we're going into now,
[2:04:42] Bob Dobbs: and we're showing how that's what Marshall McLuhan was talking about,
[2:04:47] Bob Dobbs: helped along by Finnegans Wake.
[2:04:50] Bob Dobbs: So when I talk,
[2:04:51] Bob Dobbs: you see it's so silly in the media.
[2:04:53] Bob Dobbs: Marshall said we're becoming tribal and all this stuff,
[2:04:56] Bob Dobbs: right?
[2:04:56] Bob Dobbs: Nothing to deal with the real issue.
[2:04:58] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[2:04:59] Bob Dobbs: maybe...
[2:05:00] Bob Dobbs: Nobody famous,
[2:05:01] Bob Dobbs: in cultural terms,
[2:05:02] Bob Dobbs: ever gets discussed accurately,
[2:05:05] Bob Dobbs: right?
[2:05:07] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[2:05:08] Cameron McEwen: thinking doesn't eventuate in set conclusions,
[2:05:17] Cameron McEwen: right?
[2:05:17] Cameron McEwen: So
[2:05:18] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan was a thinker,
[2:05:20] Cameron McEwen: and to understand
[2:05:22] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan means to think along with him,
[2:05:26] Cameron McEwen: and thinking along with him.
[2:05:29] Cameron McEwen: It's a dynamic process.
[2:05:31] Cameron McEwen: It's not a coming to a summation process.
[2:05:37] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:05:37] Cameron McEwen: It's not an adding up.
[2:05:42] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:05:42] Bob Dobbs: that's where there's no finish line.
[2:05:45] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[2:05:46] Bob Dobbs: So,
[2:05:48] Bob Dobbs: now William Irwin Thompson,
[2:05:49] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:05:49] Bob Dobbs: a student at McLuhan,
[2:05:50] Bob Dobbs: talks about five phases of cultural history,
[2:05:54] Bob Dobbs: cultural ecologies,
[2:05:56] Bob Dobbs: and...
[2:05:58] Bob Dobbs: Each one has a victim,
[2:06:00] Bob Dobbs: and I think the first victim is the animal,
[2:06:05] Bob Dobbs: so that's used in sacrifices and that.
[2:06:08] Bob Dobbs: And then woman is the next victim,
[2:06:13] Bob Dobbs: and then man,
[2:06:14] Bob Dobbs: I think,
[2:06:16] Bob Dobbs: and then culture.
[2:06:18] Bob Dobbs: But the fifth phase in our time,
[2:06:21] Bob Dobbs: well,
[2:06:21] Bob Dobbs: 50 years ago when he was writing this,
[2:06:24] Bob Dobbs: was the mind.
[2:06:25] Bob Dobbs: The mind was the final victim.
[2:06:27] Bob Dobbs: So I always think of that in relation to this thinking point.
[2:06:32] Bob Dobbs: Like part of McLuhan's thinking is aware of the lack of having content in his thinking,
[2:06:39] Bob Dobbs: which is expressed by Finnegans Wake.
[2:06:40] Bob Dobbs: There's,
[2:06:43] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:06:43] Bob Dobbs: whole passages where you can't find,
[2:06:46] Bob Dobbs: really say what the content is.
[2:06:48] Bob Dobbs: So the mind was the original problem,
[2:06:51] Bob Dobbs: and that's the final victim or challenge or...
[2:06:55] Bob Dobbs: We don't know what part of our minds to return,
[2:06:58] Bob Dobbs: to preserve,
[2:06:59] Bob Dobbs: or what is it that we're preserving.
[2:07:01] Bob Dobbs: Is the mind like the whole body?
[2:07:03] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[2:07:03] Bob Dobbs: there's the cognitive scientists,
[2:07:05] Bob Dobbs: they like to think the mind is in the environment,
[2:07:07] Bob Dobbs: and they've blurred the Gutenbergian outlines of the body,
[2:07:12] Bob Dobbs: so they can't say where cognition is,
[2:07:14] Bob Dobbs: or they're focusing on it in strange places.
[2:07:17] Bob Dobbs: You know about that stuff,
[2:07:18] Bob Dobbs: right?
[2:07:20] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[2:07:20] Cameron McEwen: this is more or less what I meant by the disappearance.
[2:07:25] Cameron McEwen: of the subject in the Gutenberg Galaxy.
[2:07:29] Bob Dobbs: So that would be the homeopathic disappearance of memory,
[2:07:33] Bob Dobbs: or the subject,
[2:07:34] Bob Dobbs: or the mind.
[2:07:37] Cameron McEwen: Why do you call...
[2:07:38] Cameron McEwen: I don't see that,
[2:07:39] Cameron McEwen: because to me,
[2:07:42] Cameron McEwen: the first thing that comes to mind with homeopathic is the efficacy of the small.
[2:07:50] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:07:50] Bob Dobbs: the memory is preserved.
[2:07:53] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[2:07:54] Cameron McEwen: so you seem to be saying that the disappearance was the homeopathic principle.
[2:08:01] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:08:01] Cameron McEwen: Because I thought it would have been the preservation.
[2:08:04] Bob Dobbs: I'm seeing the homeopathic failing,
[2:08:08] Bob Dobbs: or you can be deluded into thinking it's gone.
[2:08:11] Bob Dobbs: So maybe preserving accurate,
[2:08:14] Bob Dobbs: with the accurate definition of homeopathy,
[2:08:16] Bob Dobbs: that it preserves things.
[2:08:17] Bob Dobbs: You have to know that to understand the shrinking,
[2:08:20] Bob Dobbs: that the small is not a threat.
[2:08:23] Bob Dobbs: People would take it as a threat.
[2:08:25] Cameron McEwen: Here you could say,
[2:08:26] Cameron McEwen: just as the fission needs to be first understood in order to understand fusion,
[2:08:34] Cameron McEwen: so with the homeopathic,
[2:08:37] Cameron McEwen: unless you understand disappearance,
[2:08:39] Cameron McEwen: you can't understand preservation.
[2:08:42] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[2:08:43] Bob Dobbs: Disappearance,
[2:08:44] Bob Dobbs: very important postmodern term.
[2:08:46] Bob Dobbs: So that's why right now we know lawyers in that that are...
[2:08:53] Bob Dobbs: Working with the homeopaths,
[2:08:55] Bob Dobbs: because Big Pharma is trying to wipe out all that alternative stuff,
[2:08:59] Bob Dobbs: and they've got a real problem with homeopathy.
[2:09:02] Bob Dobbs: Because if homeopathy is correct,
[2:09:05] Bob Dobbs: and the scientists that did prove that in the late 80s,
[2:09:08] Bob Dobbs: forget his name,
[2:09:10] Bob Dobbs: he was a friend of Baudrillard,
[2:09:12] Bob Dobbs: and
[2:09:13] Bob Dobbs: I discussed that with Baudrillard,
[2:09:15] Bob Dobbs: because this guy was aware of what Carol was doing with MIR,
[2:09:19] Bob Dobbs: that early technology that could solve AIDS.
[2:09:22] Bob Dobbs: in New York in the 90s.
[2:09:24] Bob Dobbs: So he proved homeopathy,
[2:09:28] Bob Dobbs: and then he was invaded by
[2:09:31] Bob Dobbs: Amazing Randi and the skeptics,
[2:09:33] Bob Dobbs: and they destroyed his lab and did all kinds of bad things.
[2:09:37] Bob Dobbs: And then he eventually got,
[2:09:38] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:09:39] Bob Dobbs: isolated by the scientific community.
[2:09:42] Bob Dobbs: But it was,
[2:09:43] Bob Dobbs: what do you call it,
[2:09:44] Bob Dobbs: an open nerve to touch that point and say there's homeopathy.
[2:09:48] Bob Dobbs: That is a...
[2:09:51] Bob Dobbs: idea which can become a service idea for the increasing obliteration of the tech body of us.
[2:10:00] Bob Dobbs: So there's a service in homeopathy that technology,
[2:10:04] Bob Dobbs: Gutenberg technology,
[2:10:05] Bob Dobbs: would not want to acknowledge.
[2:10:08] Bob Dobbs: So it is a big battle.
[2:10:10] Bob Dobbs: There's this harmless little thing,
[2:10:12] Bob Dobbs: and they want to get rid of it,
[2:10:15] Bob Dobbs: outlaw it,
[2:10:16] Bob Dobbs: and their drugs do way worse than homeopathy in side effects.
[2:10:20] Bob Dobbs: There are no side effects from homeopathy.
[2:10:22] Bob Dobbs: So it's an irrational attack.
[2:10:25] Bob Dobbs: But in McLuhan terms,
[2:10:27] Bob Dobbs: it is the essence of what's happening.
[2:10:30] Bob Dobbs: And
[2:10:30] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan's use of homeopathy,
[2:10:33] Bob Dobbs: we should hope,
[2:10:34] Bob Dobbs: is correct,
[2:10:36] Bob Dobbs: that it does get preserved something.
[2:10:39] Bob Dobbs: He's looking for what's preserved.
[2:10:43] Cameron McEwen: You used the word obliteration halfway through your remarks there.
[2:10:49] Cameron McEwen: And you said obliteration of something.
[2:10:52] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:10:53] Bob Dobbs: of the private citadel.
[2:11:00] Bob Dobbs: See,
[2:11:00] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:11:00] Bob Dobbs: a lot of promoters are people afraid of what Silicon Valley is doing to us.
[2:11:07] Bob Dobbs: Every now and then they pop up and say,
[2:11:09] Bob Dobbs: abandon all this stuff.
[2:11:10] Bob Dobbs: We're going to be wiped out.
[2:11:13] Bob Dobbs: As a matter of fact,
[2:11:14] Bob Dobbs: here's an interesting thing that the Evergreens channel through Michael Blake Read said.
[2:11:17] Bob Dobbs: I asked him.
[2:11:18] Bob Dobbs: back in the 90s.
[2:11:19] Bob Dobbs: When is the Armageddon?
[2:11:21] Bob Dobbs: What is the Armageddon?
[2:11:22] Bob Dobbs: And they said,
[2:11:23] Bob Dobbs: the final Armageddon...
[2:11:26] Bob Dobbs: approximately in 500 years,
[2:11:28] Bob Dobbs: is when we will invent a technology,
[2:11:31] Bob Dobbs: and we will know that if we implement it,
[2:11:33] Bob Dobbs: we will forget everything we ever knew.
[2:11:36] Bob Dobbs: That will be the effect of it.
[2:11:38] Bob Dobbs: And there will be a battle over whether to press the button and implement it.
[2:11:42] Bob Dobbs: So when I heard that,
[2:11:44] Bob Dobbs: I said,
[2:11:44] Bob Dobbs: wow,
[2:11:45] Bob Dobbs: media ecology is the ultimate battle.
[2:11:47] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan is telling you to study the effects,
[2:11:50] Bob Dobbs: so we'll be studying the effects inevitably over the next 500 years to the point where we can see.
[2:11:55] Bob Dobbs: Look,
[2:11:55] Bob Dobbs: we've got this thing.
[2:11:56] Bob Dobbs: Look what it's going to do to us.
[2:11:58] Bob Dobbs: It's not an environment yet,
[2:11:59] Bob Dobbs: but if we implement it,
[2:12:00] Bob Dobbs: we're out.
[2:12:02] Bob Dobbs: That is,
[2:12:03] Bob Dobbs: to me,
[2:12:04] Bob Dobbs: an obliteration of the private citadel,
[2:12:06] Bob Dobbs: the end of memory.
[2:12:07] Bob Dobbs: You forget everything that we know,
[2:12:09] Bob Dobbs: and I don't know what that means,
[2:12:11] Bob Dobbs: but somehow we don't know where we are anymore,
[2:12:14] Bob Dobbs: or we don't have a mind to know or something.
[2:12:17] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[2:12:17] Cameron McEwen: I think that obliteration is happening as we speak,
[2:12:20] Cameron McEwen: and that it takes place through...
[2:12:23] Cameron McEwen: The evisceration of meaning.
[2:12:26] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:12:27] Cameron McEwen: If words don't mean anything.
[2:12:29] Bob Dobbs: That's what I mean by my chart.
[2:12:32] Bob Dobbs: Each phase is a holeopathic obliteration.
[2:12:37] Bob Dobbs: And that's why I have each quadrant is a subatomic particle.
[2:12:39] Bob Dobbs: It gets smaller and smaller particles.
[2:12:42] Bob Dobbs: We're being obliterated.
[2:12:43] Bob Dobbs: That's what the chart shows.
[2:12:45] Bob Dobbs: But then it predicts,
[2:12:48] Bob Dobbs: anticipates,
[2:12:50] Bob Dobbs: hopes for,
[2:12:50] Bob Dobbs: prays for a breakthrough.
[2:12:53] Bob Dobbs: which is in the sentence at the bottom of the chart,
[2:12:55] Bob Dobbs: where they say waiting for organic bodies,
[2:12:58] Bob Dobbs: the spinning clothing crystals have communicated the hexadvertebrates.
[2:13:05] Bob Dobbs: The spinning clothes,
[2:13:07] Bob Dobbs: forget what the word is.
[2:13:09] Bob Dobbs: But the hexadic is what we got into,
[2:13:11] Bob Dobbs: and then I found out that iON is the hexadic,
[2:13:14] Bob Dobbs: the breakthrough.
[2:13:16] Bob Dobbs: But how much is a breakthrough?
[2:13:20] Bob Dobbs: If you have a...
[2:13:22] Bob Dobbs: A collective environment that gives you endless energy,
[2:13:24] Bob Dobbs: electricity,
[2:13:25] Bob Dobbs: and you have products that make you never die.
[2:13:29] Bob Dobbs: What does that mean to you?
[2:13:31] Bob Dobbs: You're forever available to celebrate your situation and enjoy technology.
[2:13:37] Bob Dobbs: Probably that leads to a meaning crisis.
[2:13:40] Bob Dobbs: So we've had,
[2:13:42] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:13:42] Bob Dobbs: various phases of the meaning crisis since
[2:13:45] Bob Dobbs: Nietzsche or whatever in 1850 with the telegraph.
[2:13:50] Bob Dobbs: So that crisis that you're talking about,
[2:13:51] Bob Dobbs: the Armageddon,
[2:13:53] Bob Dobbs: was what I was portraying,
[2:13:55] Bob Dobbs: because I formed that chart after the Evergreens told me about the Armageddon.
[2:13:59] Bob Dobbs: So that was influencing my mind,
[2:14:01] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:14:02] Bob Dobbs: about what I thought we were going to,
[2:14:04] Bob Dobbs: the final Armageddon,
[2:14:06] Bob Dobbs: where we would have the choice of not knowing what it's going to do to us.
[2:14:15] Bob Dobbs: So those are some of the thoughts in what I thought was...
[2:14:19] Bob Dobbs: Making me make the chart.
[2:14:21] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[2:14:22] Bob Dobbs: Who knows?
[2:14:23] Bob Dobbs: There's other things going on in the unconscious or in my environment that are making the chart happen too.
[2:14:28] Bob Dobbs: So
[2:14:29] Bob Dobbs: I'm describing what I was conscious of.
[2:14:32] Bob Dobbs: So the homeopathic,
[2:14:37] Bob Dobbs: it's almost like the homeopathic gets tetraded.
[2:14:39] Bob Dobbs: It flips.
[2:14:41] Bob Dobbs: And it doesn't work anymore.
[2:14:44] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[2:14:44] Cameron McEwen: do you run together?
[2:14:45] Cameron McEwen: the holeopathic and the homeopathic in some way?
[2:14:49] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[2:14:49] Bob Dobbs: the holeopathic is the global hologram which began with the percentage of marriage in the
[2:14:56] Bob Dobbs: 60s and that's been shrunk by fiber cables and the digital technology.
[2:15:03] Bob Dobbs: So we are not inside the theater today.
[2:15:09] Bob Dobbs: We're outside of it with all of media and your little...
[2:15:13] Bob Dobbs: 220 years ago,
[2:15:14] Bob Dobbs: your Palm Pilot,
[2:15:14] Bob Dobbs: now in your smartphone.
[2:15:16] Bob Dobbs: We are bigger.
[2:15:17] Bob Dobbs: We have popped out of the leviathan of the global theater.
[2:15:21] Bob Dobbs: So that's where you get into the Global Membrane,
[2:15:24] Bob Dobbs: and then the Android meme,
[2:15:26] Bob Dobbs: and then the tech body.
[2:15:27] Bob Dobbs: So
[2:15:28] Bob Dobbs: I welcome that we got to this point where I answer your question about what is the difference.
[2:15:35] Cameron McEwen: So am I right that the holeopathic is...
[2:15:44] Cameron McEwen: the gigantic,
[2:15:49] Cameron McEwen: the escape from which is the homeopathic,
[2:15:55] Cameron McEwen: which is the miniature.
[2:15:57] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[2:15:58] Bob Dobbs: The holeopathic is the huge environment of the
[2:16:01] Cameron McEwen: 60s, the global theater.
[2:16:04] Bob Dobbs: That shrinks,
[2:16:06] Bob Dobbs: miniaturizes in the last 60 years.
[2:16:10] Bob Dobbs: So that's homeopathic.
[2:16:12] Bob Dobbs: The hologram of the global theater is going through a homeopathic process.
[2:16:18] Cameron McEwen: Okay.
[2:16:19] Bob Dobbs: And so the question is,
[2:16:20] Bob Dobbs: is it going to end up with an ultimate disservice or a service breakthrough?
[2:16:25] Bob Dobbs: So I combine,
[2:16:26] Bob Dobbs: so basically I'm saying my term means it's the verb to explain the process.
[2:16:32] Bob Dobbs: of what happens to the global theater.
[2:16:35] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[2:16:36] Cameron McEwen: And what's the relationship between human subjects,
[2:16:40] Cameron McEwen: if that's not a stupid term,
[2:16:42] Cameron McEwen: what's the relationship between human subjects and this theater that becomes fragmented?
[2:16:51] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:16:52] Bob Dobbs: well,
[2:16:52] Bob Dobbs: shrinking becomes more and more integrated.
[2:16:57] Bob Dobbs: Homeopathic is a kind of doing more with less.
[2:17:00] Bob Dobbs: It's more powerful.
[2:17:03] Cameron McEwen: But doesn't that become fragmented into all of these different media?
[2:17:08] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[2:17:08] Bob Dobbs: the AP becomes fragmented,
[2:17:13] Bob Dobbs: the Anthropomorphic Physical.
[2:17:16] Bob Dobbs: That anthropomorphic means there's communication between you and something else.
[2:17:20] Bob Dobbs: If you don't believe that you're human or anything,
[2:17:24] Bob Dobbs: then you wouldn't look for something to match with.
[2:17:28] Bob Dobbs: So the AP is a way,
[2:17:30] Bob Dobbs: is a final delusion.
[2:17:32] Bob Dobbs: that it is a human universe,
[2:17:34] Bob Dobbs: right?
[2:17:34] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:17:34] Cameron McEwen: yeah,
[2:17:35] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[2:17:35] Bob Dobbs: Teleologically,
[2:17:36] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:17:36] Bob Dobbs: there's a whole science or philosophy about that,
[2:17:39] Bob Dobbs: that the universe is for us.
[2:17:42] Bob Dobbs: So I raise that as a question.
[2:17:44] Bob Dobbs: The Anthropomorphic Physical is a way,
[2:17:49] Bob Dobbs: it's my term for the citadel of consciousness,
[2:17:52] Bob Dobbs: and is that going to survive?
[2:17:55] Bob Dobbs: And does it require...
[2:18:00] Bob Dobbs: Throwing out the AP human element.
[2:18:05] Bob Dobbs: So those questions are discussed a lot in a lot of fields in advanced science,
[2:18:11] Bob Dobbs: in computers and cognitive science,
[2:18:14] Bob Dobbs: whatever they're doing.
[2:18:15] Bob Dobbs: They're all wondering,
[2:18:16] Bob Dobbs: are we in,
[2:18:18] Bob Dobbs: we're in trouble,
[2:18:19] Bob Dobbs: you know.
[2:18:20] Bob Dobbs: Like on Monday,
[2:18:21] Bob Dobbs: Wednesday,
[2:18:21] Bob Dobbs: Friday,
[2:18:22] Bob Dobbs: people throw up,
[2:18:24] Bob Dobbs: we're in trouble,
[2:18:24] Bob Dobbs: it's over.
[2:18:25] Bob Dobbs: And then on Tuesday,
[2:18:26] Bob Dobbs: Thursday,
[2:18:26] Bob Dobbs: and Saturday,
[2:18:27] Bob Dobbs: the other guy said,
[2:18:28] Bob Dobbs: no,
[2:18:28] Bob Dobbs: no,
[2:18:28] Bob Dobbs: we're doing okay.
[2:18:30] Bob Dobbs: We found Mr.
[2:18:31] Bob Dobbs: Jeffrey Epstein.
[2:18:32] Bob Dobbs: We put him away.
[2:18:33] Bob Dobbs: He's not here anymore.
[2:18:34] Bob Dobbs: We're okay.
[2:18:37] Bob Dobbs: So you see the drama there,
[2:18:39] Bob Dobbs: what I'm talking about?
[2:18:40] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[2:18:41] Cameron McEwen: sure.
[2:18:42] Cameron McEwen: It's like a bellows going in and out.
[2:18:47] Cameron McEwen: And the question will be,
[2:18:56] Cameron McEwen: I think,
[2:18:56] Cameron McEwen: when we arrive at the tech body,
[2:19:00] Bob Dobbs: Which we're always in a state where we can say we've gotten there.
[2:19:07] Bob Dobbs: We got there with the telegraph and then radio.
[2:19:10] Bob Dobbs: There's a slight change of frequency and all that,
[2:19:12] Bob Dobbs: but the electric implosion,
[2:19:14] Bob Dobbs: we never left.
[2:19:17] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[2:19:17] Cameron McEwen: yeah,
[2:19:18] Cameron McEwen: I understand all that.
[2:19:21] Cameron McEwen: You often,
[2:19:23] Cameron McEwen: in the sentences you just spoke,
[2:19:25] Cameron McEwen: use the word we.
[2:19:26] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[2:19:27] Cameron McEwen: And it seems to me that the word we.
[2:19:28] Cameron McEwen: we is exactly the question in all this.
[2:19:33] Cameron McEwen: There is even a we.
[2:19:34] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[2:19:36] Bob Dobbs: That's the Anthropomorphic Physical and that's the separateness is the we cancelled out by the separateness.
[2:19:45] Bob Dobbs: So you see people like,
[2:19:47] Bob Dobbs: I don't know where I heard this,
[2:19:48] Bob Dobbs: they were discussing whether humans were becoming more psychopathic.
[2:19:53] Bob Dobbs: I'm not sure where I saw that.
[2:19:55] Bob Dobbs: This trend towards psychopathy,
[2:19:56] Bob Dobbs: which McLuhan predicted.
[2:20:00] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[2:20:01] Bob Dobbs: as people become less controlled by cultural boundaries,
[2:20:05] Bob Dobbs: they become violent.
[2:20:07] Bob Dobbs: So you've got more and more violence all over the place.
[2:20:09] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[2:20:10] Bob Dobbs: irrational outbursts.
[2:20:12] Bob Dobbs: That's a big thing that's the struggling of the AP,
[2:20:17] Bob Dobbs: looking for meaning.
[2:20:19] Bob Dobbs: And meaning becomes just getting a reaction.
[2:20:23] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[2:20:23] Bob Dobbs: so I go shoot some people,
[2:20:26] Bob Dobbs: and then they come and arrest me.
[2:20:27] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[2:20:27] Bob Dobbs: I...
[2:20:28] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[2:20:28] Bob Dobbs: there's something out there that recognizes me.
[2:20:30] Bob Dobbs: I exist.
[2:20:32] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[2:20:32] Cameron McEwen: yeah,
[2:20:32] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[2:20:32] Cameron McEwen: It's like also self-cutting is part of that syndrome.
[2:20:37] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:20:37] Bob Dobbs: self-cutting?
[2:20:38] Bob Dobbs: What the kids do?
[2:20:39] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:20:40] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[2:20:41] Bob Dobbs: So how many people have to cut themselves to say that we've arrived?
[2:20:49] Bob Dobbs: If you've got two million doing it in the last two years,
[2:20:53] Bob Dobbs: say,
[2:20:53] Bob Dobbs: do we have to wait until 50 million do it?
[2:20:56] Bob Dobbs: Then,
[2:20:56] Bob Dobbs: oh,
[2:20:57] Bob Dobbs: now we've arrived at the tech body.
[2:20:58] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[2:20:59] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[2:20:59] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[2:21:00] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[2:21:00] Cameron McEwen: maybe the First World War is one answer to that.
[2:21:05] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:21:06] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan said that the concentration camps showed that the human chemical body was obsolete.
[2:21:13] Bob Dobbs: But there already was the concentration camp in the trenches in
[2:21:17] Bob Dobbs: World War I.
[2:21:18] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[2:21:19] Bob Dobbs: Four years of ridiculous slaughter,
[2:21:21] Bob Dobbs: right?
[2:21:22] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[2:21:22] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[2:21:24] Cameron McEwen: And...
[2:21:25] Cameron McEwen: and
[2:21:26] Cameron McEwen: similarly in the Civil War.
[2:21:28] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[2:21:30] Bob Dobbs: So you see the electric implosion caused this global crisis,
[2:21:33] Bob Dobbs: and that's why McLuhan would occasionally say,
[2:21:36] Bob Dobbs: somebody should have written what I'm writing 100 years ago.
[2:21:39] Bob Dobbs: It was all obvious 100 years ago.
[2:21:40] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[2:21:41] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[2:21:43] Bob Dobbs: And then he would say,
[2:21:43] Bob Dobbs: well,
[2:21:44] Bob Dobbs: some of the poets caught on to it.
[2:21:46] Bob Dobbs: But it's interesting how there is a constancy,
[2:21:50] Bob Dobbs: but also a shifting,
[2:21:53] Bob Dobbs: a new wrinkles added,
[2:21:55] Bob Dobbs: new nuances or rhythms.
[2:21:57] Bob Dobbs: or radiation from what I say on the Bob's Media Ecology album,
[2:22:05] Bob Dobbs: we never left 1945.
[2:22:07] Bob Dobbs: We've been just running on the same spot and layering over on us subsequent electronic and digital environments or variations of the telegraph effect.
[2:22:19] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[2:22:21] Cameron McEwen: I can see that.
[2:22:23] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[2:22:23] Bob Dobbs: so that's what now...
[2:22:26] Bob Dobbs: I'm then going to try to say something pops out of that.
[2:22:29] Bob Dobbs: First the Android meme,
[2:22:31] Bob Dobbs: and then TechBody.
[2:22:32] Bob Dobbs: So we arrived at the Global Membrane understanding.
[2:22:39] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[2:22:39] Cameron McEwen: so it's just about six.
[2:22:42] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:22:43] Cameron McEwen: So maybe we should take that as a good place to start next time.
[2:22:48] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:22:48] Bob Dobbs: I think this is a tremendous recording.
[2:22:51] Bob Dobbs: I'm going to promote this one because we addressed it.
[2:22:54] Bob Dobbs: the deeper part of McLuhan's Catholicism,
[2:22:56] Bob Dobbs: with very important points that you know no one has ever thought about or talked about.
[2:23:05] Cameron McEwen: Maybe that's the case,
[2:23:06] Cameron McEwen: but he had a lot of dealings with some very smart
[2:23:11] Cameron McEwen: Catholics, including some very smart priests.
[2:23:17] Bob Dobbs: There might be letters to these guys that we have not found,
[2:23:22] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:23:22] Bob Dobbs: where he says that.
[2:23:24] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:23:25] Bob Dobbs: I would say that's possible,
[2:23:26] Bob Dobbs: but they still were priests.
[2:23:29] Bob Dobbs: He had the guts to not be a priest.
[2:23:32] Bob Dobbs: He had the guts to say,
[2:23:33] Bob Dobbs: this ain't working,
[2:23:34] Bob Dobbs: boys.
[2:23:35] Bob Dobbs: We're not going to win this.
[2:23:36] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[2:23:39] Cameron McEwen: That's true.
[2:23:41] Cameron McEwen: But he also,
[2:23:42] Cameron McEwen: he wrote to his brother in the 30s that he would,
[2:23:49] Cameron McEwen: if he had known how to think about Catholicism.
[2:23:54] Cameron McEwen: In the early
[2:23:55] Cameron McEwen: 30s, he would have become a priest.
[2:23:56] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[2:23:57] Bob Dobbs: but he didn't,
[2:23:58] Bob Dobbs: and I think he was lucky to not.
[2:24:01] Bob Dobbs: He couldn't have been the prophet if he did that.
[2:24:06] Cameron McEwen: Probably not.
[2:24:07] Cameron McEwen: Probably not.
[2:24:08] Cameron McEwen: He probably had to be sort of the outside on the inside.
[2:24:15] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:24:15] Bob Dobbs: and he's always a question mark for people.
[2:24:19] Bob Dobbs: Once people starting in the 60s thought he was a Catholic,
[2:24:21] Bob Dobbs: he said,
[2:24:21] Bob Dobbs: what?
[2:24:22] Bob Dobbs: How can a smart guy be a Catholic?
[2:24:24] Bob Dobbs: These are people who weren't impressed,
[2:24:25] Bob Dobbs: Protestants,
[2:24:26] Bob Dobbs: weren't impressed with Catholics.
[2:24:28] Bob Dobbs: So there was those prejudices,
[2:24:29] Bob Dobbs: but he is a question mark to people.
[2:24:33] Bob Dobbs: Correct.
[2:24:35] Bob Dobbs: And I think that's,
[2:24:37] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if you could say it was constantly staged,
[2:24:39] Bob Dobbs: but that was the fate of his image.
[2:24:43] Bob Dobbs: His Catholicism puzzled everybody.
[2:24:46] Bob Dobbs: And people do discuss it and say,
[2:24:47] Bob Dobbs: well,
[2:24:48] Bob Dobbs: what kind of Catholic was he?
[2:24:49] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[2:24:49] Bob Dobbs: what was he?
[2:24:51] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:24:53] Bob Dobbs: And the Vatican,
[2:24:54] Bob Dobbs: they appointed him a communication advisor,
[2:24:56] Bob Dobbs: but they didn't know what to do with him.
[2:24:59] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[2:25:00] Cameron McEwen: well,
[2:25:00] Cameron McEwen: they didn't do anything with him.
[2:25:01] Bob Dobbs: They couldn't.
[2:25:02] Bob Dobbs: So he was a correct Catholic,
[2:25:07] Bob Dobbs: I'd say.
[2:25:08] Bob Dobbs: He was appropriately ecological,
[2:25:10] Bob Dobbs: or he had the perfect pitch as a Catholic.
[2:25:14] Bob Dobbs: And the only guy that I ever heard notice that was George Thompson.
[2:25:18] Bob Dobbs: Of course,
[2:25:18] Bob Dobbs: he was with Marshall every day,
[2:25:20] Bob Dobbs: watched.
[2:25:21] Bob Dobbs: And George is running over to St.
[2:25:22] Bob Dobbs: Michael's Library.
[2:25:23] Bob Dobbs: He's dealing with the whole Catholic environment for Marshall all the time.
[2:25:27] Bob Dobbs: And it was an accidental point where we're talking,
[2:25:31] Bob Dobbs: and
[2:25:32] Bob Dobbs: I don't know who said what first.
[2:25:33] Bob Dobbs: And I said,
[2:25:35] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if McLuhan was a Catholic.
[2:25:38] Bob Dobbs: And he said,
[2:25:39] Bob Dobbs: you're right,
[2:25:39] Bob Dobbs: he wasn't.
[2:25:41] Bob Dobbs: So that was a very important communication for me with a guy so close to McLuhan.
[2:25:45] Bob Dobbs: Do you know what I mean?
[2:25:47] Bob Dobbs: And he had the guts to say that.
[2:25:49] Bob Dobbs: This is...
[2:25:49] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan is not a Catholic.
[2:25:50] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[2:25:50] Bob Dobbs: who would say that around him?
[2:25:52] Bob Dobbs: Nobody would say that in public,
[2:25:56] Bob Dobbs: in front of him,
[2:25:56] Bob Dobbs: I don't think.
[2:25:58] Bob Dobbs: Right?
[2:25:59] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:25:59] Cameron McEwen: well,
[2:26:00] Cameron McEwen: but that's,
[2:26:01] Cameron McEwen: you know,
[2:26:01] Cameron McEwen: the meaning of that would have to be teased out for many people like his kids.
[2:26:07] Cameron McEwen: He was too much of a Catholic.
[2:26:09] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:26:09] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[2:26:10] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[2:26:11] Bob Dobbs: But they didn't pick up his questioning of it,
[2:26:14] Bob Dobbs: his coolness about it.
[2:26:19] Bob Dobbs: It would be like how cool a Catholic he was.
[2:26:21] Cameron McEwen: Ha ha ha.
[2:26:25] Cameron McEwen: Because,
[2:26:25] Cameron McEwen: well...
[2:26:28] Cameron McEwen: I don't think we have the time to...
[2:26:29] Cameron McEwen: No,
[2:26:30] Cameron McEwen: that's a good point.
[2:26:31] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[2:26:31] Bob Dobbs: let's end on that laughter.
[2:26:33] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[2:26:34] Bob Dobbs: All right.
[2:26:35] Bob Dobbs: Excellent.
[2:26:35] Bob Dobbs: We made an incredible recording,
[2:26:37] Bob Dobbs: Cameron.
[2:26:37] Bob Dobbs: You may not understand it,
[2:26:38] Bob Dobbs: but I tell you,
[2:26:40] Bob Dobbs: it was pretty fucking probing.
[2:26:42] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[2:26:43] Cameron McEwen: good.
[2:26:44] Bob Dobbs: So thanks a lot for helping me do this.
[2:26:46] Cameron McEwen: I look forward to next time,
[2:26:47] Cameron McEwen: Bob.
[2:26:47] Bob Dobbs: Beg your pardon?
[2:26:48] Cameron McEwen: I say we'll look forward to next time.
[2:26:50] Bob Dobbs: All right.
[2:26:51] Bob Dobbs: Thank you very much.
[2:26:51] Cameron McEwen: And remember that when you go off the recording,
[2:26:55] Cameron McEwen: you said you had something that...
[2:26:57] Cameron McEwen: you wanted to talk about.
[2:26:58] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[2:26:59] Bob Dobbs: so
[2:27:00] Bob Dobbs: I will disconnect.
[2:27:01] Bob Dobbs: We will stop the recording.
[2:27:03] Bob Dobbs: Here we go.