[00:02] Bob Dobbs: Hello,
[00:02] Bob Dobbs: this is
[00:03] Bob Dobbs: Cameron McEwen and Bob Dobbs,
[00:06] Bob Dobbs: continuing our examination of my book and related matters.
[00:13] Bob Dobbs: And this is the
[00:16] Bob Dobbs: 64th episode being recorded on February 2nd,
[00:20] Bob Dobbs: 2023.
[00:23] Bob Dobbs: So Cameron sent me a quote in between since the last one.
[00:29] Bob Dobbs: From the book Understanding Me,
[00:32] Bob Dobbs: his daughter and
[00:34] Bob Dobbs: David
[00:35] Bob Dobbs: Staines, what's the guy's name?
[00:38] Bob Dobbs: He did Understanding Me with
[00:41] Bob Dobbs: Stephanie McLuhan.
[00:42] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[00:42] Cameron McEwen: David,
[00:43] Cameron McEwen: yes,
[00:43] Cameron McEwen: I can't.
[00:45] Bob Dobbs: Staines.
[00:47] Cameron McEwen: That's right,
[00:47] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[00:47] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[00:48] Bob Dobbs: so David and
[00:49] Bob Dobbs: Stephanie put together these essays of McLuhan,
[00:53] Bob Dobbs: important essays,
[00:54] Bob Dobbs: conversations.
[00:56] Bob Dobbs: This one's called Towards an Inclusive Consciousness,
[00:59] Bob Dobbs: 1970.
[01:02] Cameron McEwen: That was part of a lecture series at the University of Toronto.
[01:06] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[01:08] Bob Dobbs: so the quote is,
[01:10] Bob Dobbs: What Bacon did was to take the book of nature,
[01:13] Bob Dobbs: which had been the medieval image of the natural world,
[01:17] Bob Dobbs: and to this he added the book of scripture,
[01:19] Bob Dobbs: the sacred page.
[01:21] Bob Dobbs: He took both these pages and directed to these pages a kind of analytic gaze of comprehensive inclusiveness.
[01:29] Bob Dobbs: So he's doing something with the pages that people don't normally do.
[01:36] Bob Dobbs: So then McLuhan says,
[01:39] Bob Dobbs: he brings himself into it,
[01:40] Bob Dobbs: he says,
[01:41] Bob Dobbs: I'm suggesting that the very components that make for a divided consciousness also can,
[01:46] Bob Dobbs: with a certain encouragement,
[01:48] Bob Dobbs: become the means of an inclusive consciousness.
[01:51] Bob Dobbs: such as Bacon took for granted in his own case.
[01:55] Bob Dobbs: So
[01:57] Bob Dobbs: Cameron sent that to me.
[02:00] Bob Dobbs: So what would you say,
[02:01] Bob Dobbs: Cameron,
[02:01] Bob Dobbs: about it?
[02:04] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[02:05] Cameron McEwen: the last time we were talking about the Gutenberg Galaxy,
[02:09] Cameron McEwen: and
[02:11] Cameron McEwen: I was trying to make the point that the Gutenberg Galaxy cannot be seen only as negative.
[02:18] Cameron McEwen: It must be seen as having contributed a great many things that McLuhan wanted to preserve,
[02:26] Cameron McEwen: but he couldn't see any way of preserving it short of coming up with a science of media that would be able to both
[02:41] Cameron McEwen: criticize and preserve literally anything that's ever happened in history.
[02:48] Cameron McEwen: For him,
[02:53] Cameron McEwen: this New Science,
[02:54] Cameron McEwen: as he called it,
[02:55] Cameron McEwen: was necessary for the preservation of these very important things,
[03:04] Cameron McEwen: but even for survival.
[03:07] Cameron McEwen: So
[03:08] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan needs to be understood as trying to communicate something that he thought was fundamentally important.
[03:16] Cameron McEwen: And if we didn't understand it,
[03:18] Cameron McEwen: we might just kill ourselves.
[03:21] Cameron McEwen: But the fact is that,
[03:25] Cameron McEwen: at least so far,
[03:26] Cameron McEwen: all of his work has come to nothing.
[03:30] Bob Dobbs: So he has here a kind of analytic gaze of comprehensive inclusiveness.
[03:36] Bob Dobbs: So usually inclusive means comprehensive.
[03:41] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[03:41] Cameron McEwen: and it does there too.
[03:44] Bob Dobbs: As a case of hendiadys,
[03:45] Bob Dobbs: one by means of two,
[03:46] Bob Dobbs: comprehensive inclusiveness.
[03:48] Cameron McEwen: Correct.
[03:49] Bob Dobbs: So then he says...
[03:50] Cameron McEwen: But the two needs to be preserved as two.
[03:55] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[03:56] Cameron McEwen: When he talks about the two pages there,
[03:59] Cameron McEwen: one of nature and one of scripture,
[04:02] Cameron McEwen: he's not saying that those can be conflated.
[04:06] Cameron McEwen: He's saying that they need to be seen together as they were by Bacon,
[04:10] Cameron McEwen: but in their difference.
[04:13] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[04:13] Bob Dobbs: that's actually,
[04:14] Bob Dobbs: you probably picked up this quote after our last session,
[04:18] Bob Dobbs: because we were talking about the paradox of individual and autonomy.
[04:23] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[04:24] Bob Dobbs: this is why he's against fusion.
[04:27] Bob Dobbs: Fusion is not the right,
[04:30] Bob Dobbs: the inclusiveness.
[04:31] Bob Dobbs: And also the yin-yang sign is not inclusiveness.
[04:36] Bob Dobbs: See?
[04:37] Bob Dobbs: You have to add this third element.
[04:40] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[04:40] Cameron McEwen: you could say the circle.
[04:43] Cameron McEwen: Around the yin and the yang is the third.
[04:46] Bob Dobbs: You would put a circle around it.
[04:49] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[04:49] Cameron McEwen: usually,
[04:50] Cameron McEwen: yin and yang usually appear in a circle,
[04:52] Cameron McEwen: right?
[04:54] Bob Dobbs: I think of the yin and yang as the circle is part of it.
[04:59] Bob Dobbs: I thought you mean put a circle around.
[05:01] Bob Dobbs: not touching it.
[05:03] Cameron McEwen: Oh,
[05:03] Cameron McEwen: I see what you mean.
[05:04] Cameron McEwen: No,
[05:05] Cameron McEwen: I didn't mean that.
[05:06] Cameron McEwen: But,
[05:07] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[05:07] Cameron McEwen: you're right,
[05:07] Cameron McEwen: of course,
[05:08] Cameron McEwen: that yin and yang is not only a symbol.
[05:12] Cameron McEwen: You know,
[05:12] Cameron McEwen: it's a way of envisioning fundamental forces in the universe.
[05:19] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[05:19] Bob Dobbs: so you go from,
[05:21] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[05:23] Bob Dobbs: mind-body split,
[05:24] Bob Dobbs: decursion,
[05:25] Bob Dobbs: to what you think is inclusiveness,
[05:27] Bob Dobbs: yin-yang,
[05:29] Bob Dobbs: or complementary.
[05:31] Bob Dobbs: But McLuhan's asking for more than that.
[05:33] Bob Dobbs: And this has never been said before in McLuhan talk,
[05:37] Bob Dobbs: what you're saying here in this sentence.
[05:39] Cameron McEwen: But it's the one of the reasons that I sent you that quote is that not only does it relate to what we were talking about,
[05:49] Cameron McEwen: but it also relates to your book,
[05:53] Cameron McEwen: because at the top of 131,
[05:57] Cameron McEwen: going over from 130.
[06:02] Cameron McEwen: You quote McLuhan talking about the liaison between private and corporate awareness.
[06:07] Cameron McEwen: So the inclusive relationship between yin and yang,
[06:13] Cameron McEwen: or the inclusive relationship between the two pages seen by Bacon,
[06:20] Cameron McEwen: that relates also to private and corporate awareness that you're getting into at the top of 131.
[06:27] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[06:34] Bob Dobbs: So people go from simple
[06:37] Bob Dobbs: Gutenberg split mind,
[06:38] Bob Dobbs: mind-body,
[06:39] Bob Dobbs: Descartes split,
[06:41] Bob Dobbs: and they get into the electric retrieval of acoustic space,
[06:46] Bob Dobbs: but it's really tactility.
[06:48] Bob Dobbs: And so then they get an insight.
[06:50] Bob Dobbs: They get out of the split dialectic paralyzed situation,
[06:56] Bob Dobbs: and they get a little sense of more flow by imagining the complementariness.
[07:01] Bob Dobbs: of the yin-yang,
[07:02] Bob Dobbs: but they've gone to another side.
[07:05] Bob Dobbs: They've gone to an opposite.
[07:07] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[07:07] Bob Dobbs: You have to go from the mind-body split over to the complementariness and include the word incommensurable,
[07:15] Bob Dobbs: which is in War and Peace in the Global Village,
[07:17] Bob Dobbs: but we can't find the page right yet.
[07:19] Bob Dobbs: We'll have to tell everybody later.
[07:22] Bob Dobbs: We were looking it up a few minutes ago.
[07:24] Bob Dobbs: So that really stood out to me when I read it in the late 60s.
[07:28] Bob Dobbs: He says,
[07:29] Bob Dobbs: I don't remember the noun,
[07:30] Bob Dobbs: but the situation was both complimentary and incommensurable.
[07:35] Bob Dobbs: There's a stubbornness that will not come together in this situation.
[07:41] Bob Dobbs: And that might be the difference between private and corporate awareness.
[07:45] Bob Dobbs: There's a close liaison,
[07:47] Bob Dobbs: but there's a never the twain will meet.
[07:51] Cameron McEwen: Correct.
[07:53] Cameron McEwen: So that's like the sooner the better.
[07:55] Cameron McEwen: Let me say this.
[07:56] Bob Dobbs: Just hold it.
[07:57] Bob Dobbs: That would help people understand argument.
[08:00] Bob Dobbs: I was telling somebody today,
[08:01] Bob Dobbs: what is the basic thing about humans?
[08:03] Bob Dobbs: And I said,
[08:04] Bob Dobbs: stubbornness.
[08:06] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[08:07] Bob Dobbs: this is often my situation.
[08:09] Bob Dobbs: I'll talk about something earlier in the day,
[08:11] Bob Dobbs: and it'll show up later.
[08:12] Bob Dobbs: This has happened.
[08:14] Bob Dobbs: I'm talking about stubbornness.
[08:16] Bob Dobbs: What is that?
[08:17] Bob Dobbs: That's resistance.
[08:18] Bob Dobbs: But that's really the citadel of consciousness that cannot be affected.
[08:23] Bob Dobbs: Humans all have that.
[08:26] Bob Dobbs: So when you're arguing,
[08:29] Bob Dobbs: you have to notice that you're rubbing up against their stubbornness,
[08:33] Bob Dobbs: which is like metaphysical or something,
[08:36] Bob Dobbs: and not necessarily over the issue that you're arguing about.
[08:40] Bob Dobbs: And so if you get it mixed up,
[08:42] Bob Dobbs: you can cause irreparable alienation with somebody,
[08:48] Bob Dobbs: right?
[08:49] Cameron McEwen: Sure.
[08:50] Cameron McEwen: That's the dynamic that's going on in the world today.
[08:55] Cameron McEwen: People are unable to let go of what they have stubbornly learned to identify as themselves and
[09:11] Cameron McEwen: their surrounding world.
[09:14] Bob Dobbs: And remember,
[09:15] Bob Dobbs: whatever they think their cultural values are that they're preserving,
[09:19] Bob Dobbs: there's another part of themselves,
[09:21] Bob Dobbs: this eternal stubbornness,
[09:23] Bob Dobbs: that does not...
[09:26] Bob Dobbs: You'd be stubborn in any situation to preserve your individual autonomy,
[09:30] Bob Dobbs: which is some nebulous feeling people have that you can invade.
[09:43] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[09:44] Bob Dobbs: with the digital environment,
[09:46] Bob Dobbs: which stresses autonomy,
[09:47] Bob Dobbs: it's actually enhancing assimilation of the private symbol of consciousness,
[09:53] Bob Dobbs: or this stubbornness.
[09:55] Bob Dobbs: Everybody's getting stubborn on an individual level.
[09:58] Bob Dobbs: And they think they're defending some cultural values,
[10:02] Bob Dobbs: but they're defending their stubbornness,
[10:03] Bob Dobbs: which is probably threatened by the tech body.
[10:07] Bob Dobbs: It's such an invasive thing,
[10:08] Bob Dobbs: you know.
[10:08] Bob Dobbs: What's really going on is a threat on people's sense of individual autonomy on a deeper level that would be in every culture,
[10:18] Bob Dobbs: not just the Western fragmented individual literate self versus the tribal acoustic self,
[10:24] Bob Dobbs: you know.
[10:26] Bob Dobbs: There's something underneath.
[10:28] Bob Dobbs: every human that's beyond the culture,
[10:31] Bob Dobbs: beyond the conditioning,
[10:35] Bob Dobbs: and everybody has it.
[10:36] Bob Dobbs: I think that's what Vedanta,
[10:37] Bob Dobbs: I once saw a guy,
[10:39] Bob Dobbs: Vedanta,
[10:40] Bob Dobbs: Buddhist,
[10:40] Bob Dobbs: Hindu,
[10:40] Bob Dobbs: somebody,
[10:41] Bob Dobbs: give a talk,
[10:42] Bob Dobbs: and he was emphasizing this self underneath everything.
[10:46] Bob Dobbs: So later,
[10:47] Bob Dobbs: thinking about McLuhan's the citadel of consciousness,
[10:50] Bob Dobbs: I thought that's what Vedanta was getting at,
[10:52] Bob Dobbs: and probably every religion has terms for that.
[11:00] Bob Dobbs: So you go back to this statement in 131.
[11:04] Bob Dobbs: You get into the making of consciousness and a ground that's shaping the making.
[11:09] Bob Dobbs: So he says,
[11:10] Bob Dobbs: in the same way there would seem to be an echo of the formative process of consciousness,
[11:14] Bob Dobbs: the formative process,
[11:16] Bob Dobbs: in an echo,
[11:17] Bob Dobbs: in the entire content of the unconscious,
[11:20] Bob Dobbs: then that implies a close liaison between private and corporate awareness,
[11:23] Bob Dobbs: through which exerts the most effect on the other,
[11:25] Bob Dobbs: may depend entirely on the degree of awareness achieved.
[11:28] Bob Dobbs: So that's what I'm trying to talk about here.
[11:30] Bob Dobbs: Becoming aware of the fact that the degree of awareness achieved is the factor that determines which way it's going in your interaction with other people.
[11:41] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[11:43] Cameron McEwen: But you have to understand that
[11:47] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan was aware of a kind of not,
[11:50] Cameron McEwen: K-N-O-T,
[11:52] Cameron McEwen: that's in effect here.
[11:53] Cameron McEwen: because in becoming aware...
[11:59] Cameron McEwen: there is not a linear process at stake.
[12:03] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[12:04] Cameron McEwen: Because...
[12:06] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[12:06] Bob Dobbs: you have to become aware of how your linear habit is getting in the way.
[12:12] Cameron McEwen: Exactly.
[12:13] Cameron McEwen: Exactly.
[12:14] Cameron McEwen: So in order to notice that,
[12:17] Cameron McEwen: you have to be already aware in a different way.
[12:21] Cameron McEwen: So what that means is that in order to become aware of what's going on in the linear process,
[12:28] Cameron McEwen: You need to be already out of the linear process.
[12:31] Cameron McEwen: And it's that backward step or that somersault that is so difficult.
[12:37] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[12:37] Bob Dobbs: And as the matrix,
[12:41] Bob Dobbs: the tech body,
[12:42] Bob Dobbs: though I think the tech body is more than the image of the matrix,
[12:46] Bob Dobbs: but this enveloping of the person in the hive mind,
[12:49] Bob Dobbs: all these different words,
[12:53] Bob Dobbs: what we're talking about,
[12:54] Bob Dobbs: if you get that awareness of what we're talking about,
[12:56] Bob Dobbs: you slip out of the grasp.
[12:57] Bob Dobbs: of the tech body.
[13:03] Bob Dobbs: See?
[13:04] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[13:05] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[13:06] Cameron McEwen: I understand the words you're saying,
[13:07] Cameron McEwen: but
[13:08] Cameron McEwen: I don't know enough about the tech body to know how that would work.
[13:14] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[13:16] Bob Dobbs: we haven't reached the clarity about the problem,
[13:20] Bob Dobbs: even at page 131 with the situation.
[13:25] Bob Dobbs: What am I insisting is different?
[13:27] Bob Dobbs: by coming up with a new term and referring to something,
[13:30] Bob Dobbs: you know?
[13:31] Bob Dobbs: I was just saying to you a few minutes ago,
[13:34] Bob Dobbs: before we started recording,
[13:36] Bob Dobbs: that I noticed that in a certain part of the nerd world,
[13:41] Bob Dobbs: they talk about the algorithm.
[13:44] Bob Dobbs: Remember in Counterblast,
[13:46] Bob Dobbs: the specter of communism?
[13:48] Bob Dobbs: The ghost of communism.
[13:50] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[13:50] Bob Dobbs: we have the specter of the matrix,
[13:53] Bob Dobbs: and people are calling it the algorithm,
[13:55] Bob Dobbs: which is lurking there.
[13:57] Bob Dobbs: ready to take you over or has taken you over and you didn't notice it.
[14:04] Bob Dobbs: You see?
[14:05] Bob Dobbs: Sure.
[14:06] Bob Dobbs: And then simple turning off the environment doesn't work at this situation,
[14:13] Bob Dobbs: I don't think.
[14:15] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[14:15] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan program for the
[14:16] Bob Dobbs: 60s were too enmeshed in something.
[14:23] Bob Dobbs: It seems to me you've got to partly accept...
[14:27] Cameron McEwen: that humans have lost their bearings and then um kind of talk them into that dilemma that recognition and then out of it yeah but that i mean you're right that that's the problem but it's a very very deep problem
[14:48] Cameron McEwen: yeah it can even be called the fall of man or something as it is sometimes by McLuhan yeah um Thank you.
[14:57] Cameron McEwen: Rhetoric.
[15:00] Cameron McEwen: can't do it.
[15:02] Cameron McEwen: Dialectic can't do it.
[15:05] Cameron McEwen: Grammar might be able to do it,
[15:07] Cameron McEwen: but only when it relates fundamentally to dialectic and rhetoric.
[15:15] Bob Dobbs: And McLuhan used to say,
[15:16] Bob Dobbs: he'd just sort of get fed up and just say,
[15:18] Bob Dobbs: the church is only our salvation,
[15:20] Bob Dobbs: he capitalized church,
[15:21] Bob Dobbs: right?
[15:21] Bob Dobbs: The church.
[15:23] Bob Dobbs: Which church?
[15:25] Bob Dobbs: That was his,
[15:26] Bob Dobbs: I don't know,
[15:27] Bob Dobbs: what would that be?
[15:28] Bob Dobbs: Faith?
[15:30] Bob Dobbs: Not conceptual faith.
[15:32] Bob Dobbs: A friend of mine says faith is self-image.
[15:38] Bob Dobbs: Certainly self-image is part of this,
[15:40] Bob Dobbs: because that's part of the formative process of consciousness.
[15:44] Bob Dobbs: You're making an image of yourself.
[15:46] Bob Dobbs: That's ongoing.
[15:47] Bob Dobbs: That's the making process.
[15:50] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[15:51] Cameron McEwen: but look at the phrase.
[15:53] Cameron McEwen: You are making an image of yourself.
[15:58] Cameron McEwen: That's knotted,
[15:59] Cameron McEwen: K-N-O-T-T-E-D,
[16:02] Cameron McEwen: because there's no use of the Gutenberg Galaxy self making an image of itself.
[16:11] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[16:11] Cameron McEwen: it always is doing that,
[16:12] Cameron McEwen: but it's not getting anywhere.
[16:15] Cameron McEwen: It's an imperialism that doesn't work.
[16:19] Cameron McEwen: So how to get out of that circle is a very difficult problem.
[16:26] Cameron McEwen: We were talking about that a little bit last time.
[16:30] Cameron McEwen: It involves a whole bunch of revisionings.
[16:35] Cameron McEwen: Revisionings of time,
[16:38] Cameron McEwen: revisioning of the relationship between language and the self.
[16:50] Bob Dobbs: The simple definition of the problem is your mind is in your way.
[16:56] Bob Dobbs: There's all kinds of colloquial ways of that being said to people.
[17:03] Bob Dobbs: But that's not adequate.
[17:04] Bob Dobbs: One word doesn't cover it.
[17:07] Bob Dobbs: You were expanding what people would mean by mind,
[17:12] Bob Dobbs: but you can't use mind.
[17:17] Bob Dobbs: The mind's last gasp was in the Gutenberg Galaxy as a significant...
[17:23] Bob Dobbs: image of yourself or something or a part of yourself that you're inside of and struggling with.
[17:32] Bob Dobbs: So actually this technological new global language or what McLuhan calls macroscopic gesticulation may have the benefit of getting out of the dilemma of the mind as some image inside your skull caused
[17:49] Bob Dobbs: by the book,
[17:50] Bob Dobbs: you know.
[17:52] Bob Dobbs: We can drop that.
[17:52] Bob Dobbs: It doesn't mean you're dropping mind,
[17:55] Bob Dobbs: but you're dropping your image.
[17:56] Bob Dobbs: So what you were saying,
[17:58] Bob Dobbs: the refining of the images of our being,
[18:02] Bob Dobbs: what we're made up of,
[18:04] Bob Dobbs: which is why I come up with the five bodies,
[18:06] Bob Dobbs: right?
[18:06] Bob Dobbs: I'm trying to redefine the factors in yourself.
[18:12] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[18:13] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[18:15] Cameron McEwen: the great virtue of talking about the bodies the way you do is that um,
[18:20] Cameron McEwen: It says,
[18:21] Cameron McEwen: okay,
[18:22] Cameron McEwen: here's something that is a unity,
[18:26] Cameron McEwen: but it's a unity that includes five or six or seven,
[18:31] Cameron McEwen: whatever the number is on that given day.
[18:35] Cameron McEwen: It includes all these different bodies which are fundamentally different,
[18:39] Cameron McEwen: but also integrated in whatever the self is.
[18:44] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[18:44] Bob Dobbs: so that's what he's getting at.
[18:45] Bob Dobbs: He says the very components or bodies that make for a divided consciousness.
[18:50] Bob Dobbs: can become the means of an inclusive consciousness,
[18:52] Bob Dobbs: but he says with a certain encouragement.
[18:54] Bob Dobbs: What's that?
[18:55] Bob Dobbs: What is the encouragement?
[18:57] Bob Dobbs: That's important there.
[18:59] Cameron McEwen: Correct.
[19:00] Cameron McEwen: And I don't think the reason he uses such a nebulous phrase is that he didn't know the answer to that.
[19:06] Cameron McEwen: His whole life he was trying to answer,
[19:09] Cameron McEwen: you know,
[19:10] Cameron McEwen: what is that encouragement?
[19:12] Bob Dobbs: I wouldn't say that he didn't answer it.
[19:15] Bob Dobbs: He got inspiration.
[19:17] Bob Dobbs: He thought he got it.
[19:20] Bob Dobbs: And then he wrote books and communicated it,
[19:22] Bob Dobbs: but then it didn't work.
[19:24] Cameron McEwen: So he sometimes thought that he had that sort of encouragement or knew what it was.
[19:31] Cameron McEwen: And then other times he knew that he didn't.
[19:35] Cameron McEwen: And,
[19:35] Cameron McEwen: you know,
[19:36] Cameron McEwen: like anybody in that situation,
[19:38] Cameron McEwen: he went back and forth.
[19:40] Cameron McEwen: And for him,
[19:42] Cameron McEwen: the satisfaction,
[19:45] Cameron McEwen: you could say,
[19:47] Cameron McEwen: of that situation.
[19:49] Cameron McEwen: was that he thought of it as the electric going back and forth between a tactile interface.
[19:59] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[19:59] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[19:59] Bob Dobbs: this brings up one night after a Monday night seminar.
[20:03] Bob Dobbs: I don't know what people were talking about.
[20:04] Bob Dobbs: We were just sitting around,
[20:05] Bob Dobbs: people had their coats on,
[20:06] Bob Dobbs: getting ready to go out.
[20:07] Bob Dobbs: They were in the front room,
[20:09] Bob Dobbs: not in the seminar room.
[20:11] Bob Dobbs: And he was sitting there,
[20:12] Bob Dobbs: leaning up against the wall or something,
[20:14] Bob Dobbs: and I heard him say,
[20:15] Bob Dobbs: well,
[20:15] Bob Dobbs: that's the problem.
[20:16] Bob Dobbs: Every time there's a full moon,
[20:17] Bob Dobbs: it all falls apart.
[20:22] Bob Dobbs: I think that's exactly what he was talking about.
[20:24] Bob Dobbs: He had certainty,
[20:25] Bob Dobbs: and he knew it will fall apart.
[20:29] Bob Dobbs: You'll be shifted into a new scene where what you thought...
[20:32] Bob Dobbs: was certain ain't going to hold anymore.
[20:35] Bob Dobbs: And he had noticed,
[20:37] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[20:37] Bob Dobbs: people talked about he wouldn't do things on a full moon,
[20:40] Bob Dobbs: I think.
[20:41] Bob Dobbs: He was superstitious,
[20:42] Bob Dobbs: quote superstitious that way.
[20:43] Bob Dobbs: But there he was,
[20:44] Bob Dobbs: and he just said it.
[20:45] Bob Dobbs: Nobody,
[20:46] Bob Dobbs: I looked around,
[20:47] Bob Dobbs: nobody fucking noticed it.
[20:49] Bob Dobbs: He was kind of talking to himself.
[20:50] Bob Dobbs: That there,
[20:51] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[20:54] Bob Dobbs: everything's,
[20:54] Bob Dobbs: like,
[20:55] Bob Dobbs: people would feel inspired at the end of the seminar.
[20:57] Bob Dobbs: They thought they learned something.
[20:58] Bob Dobbs: They got something.
[20:59] Bob Dobbs: They got ideas,
[20:59] Bob Dobbs: you know?
[21:00] Bob Dobbs: And then he was warning them as they were leaving,
[21:03] Bob Dobbs: it's going to all fall apart within the next 30 days,
[21:06] Bob Dobbs: what you thought you got here,
[21:07] Bob Dobbs: so you're going to have to come back.
[21:12] Bob Dobbs: Right?
[21:13] Bob Dobbs: That's a unique situation I noticed.
[21:15] Bob Dobbs: He says it fell apart every full moon.
[21:20] Bob Dobbs: That's it.
[21:20] Bob Dobbs: That's an unknown anecdote by McLuhan.
[21:22] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[21:23] Cameron McEwen: No,
[21:23] Cameron McEwen: it's a great one,
[21:24] Cameron McEwen: too.
[21:24] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[21:25] Bob Dobbs: And he's talking about our dilemma,
[21:27] Bob Dobbs: what we're talking about.
[21:29] Cameron McEwen: Yes.
[21:30] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[21:30] Cameron McEwen: so you can think of the full moon,
[21:32] Cameron McEwen: you might think of that in terms of,
[21:34] Cameron McEwen: you know,
[21:36] Cameron McEwen: a conclusion.
[21:37] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[21:38] Cameron McEwen: Reaching a full understanding.
[21:40] Cameron McEwen: A fullness.
[21:41] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[21:41] Bob Dobbs: A fullness.
[21:42] Cameron McEwen: And then,
[21:43] Cameron McEwen: of course,
[21:43] Cameron McEwen: it all falls apart into the next cycle of the moon.
[21:51] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[21:51] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[21:51] Bob Dobbs: did you hear me say a fullness?
[21:53] Bob Dobbs: You get a fullness.
[21:56] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[21:57] Bob Dobbs: That's what the word is.
[21:59] Bob Dobbs: That word's inappropriate.
[22:00] Bob Dobbs: And so I've known that it falls apart.
[22:03] Bob Dobbs: I remember that.
[22:04] Bob Dobbs: I mean,
[22:05] Bob Dobbs: when did I hear that?
[22:06] Bob Dobbs: 79.
[22:07] Bob Dobbs: You're talking 40 years ago.
[22:09] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[22:09] Bob Dobbs: 40 years ago I heard that.
[22:11] Bob Dobbs: So I have a lot of time to notice it.
[22:13] Bob Dobbs: So
[22:17] Bob Dobbs: I know that
[22:18] Bob Dobbs: I can in the moment talk and think I'm getting somewheres.
[22:23] Bob Dobbs: And maybe even impart what I thought I was saying to someone.
[22:27] Bob Dobbs: But I know it's going to.
[22:28] Bob Dobbs: fall apart and i don't tell that person is going to fall apart until maybe later like here it is as 63 fucking sessions we've had before i told you it's going to fall apart had to be a certain uh familiarity first but
[22:47] Bob Dobbs: uh but you found the quote so a certain encouragement would be it's really a deep pattern to recognize right so yes sir you don't panic because it falls apart.
[22:59] Bob Dobbs: you enjoy the no mind.
[23:04] Bob Dobbs: It's like you have a good swim and then you enjoy the fact you don't swim for a week maybe.
[23:09] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[23:10] Bob Dobbs: you don't hanker to get back into the ocean.
[23:12] Bob Dobbs: You accept,
[23:13] Bob Dobbs: well,
[23:14] Bob Dobbs: I would like to go today,
[23:14] Bob Dobbs: but I can't.
[23:16] Bob Dobbs: So it's a kind of tolerance of the ebb and flow of being.
[23:23] Bob Dobbs: So yeah,
[23:24] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.
[23:25] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.
[23:25] Cameron McEwen: So McLuhan in one place
[23:30] Cameron McEwen: it might even be in this toward inclusive consciousness lecture he says that people are trying to establish identity but they're looking in the wrong place in the rear view mirror they're
[23:47] Cameron McEwen: trying to find individual identity when they should be looking at corporate identity right and they want the identity to stay there forever Thank you.
[23:58] Bob Dobbs: So,
[24:00] Bob Dobbs: your identity is going to fall away.
[24:01] Bob Dobbs: So the process of the evolution of technology is from eye,
[24:05] Bob Dobbs: no,
[24:05] Bob Dobbs: ear,
[24:07] Bob Dobbs: getting past the original tactility.
[24:09] Bob Dobbs: So ear,
[24:09] Bob Dobbs: eye,
[24:11] Bob Dobbs: tactility.
[24:12] Bob Dobbs: So the electric environment had to cancel out the identity of the Gutenberg,
[24:15] Bob Dobbs: and that's necessary.
[24:17] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[24:17] Bob Dobbs: the evolution of technology mimes the stage of apprehension,
[24:21] Bob Dobbs: and the stages include recognizing that things are going to fall apart.
[24:24] Bob Dobbs: They'll have certainty for a while.
[24:27] Bob Dobbs: So I remember,
[24:27] Bob Dobbs: I think
[24:29] Bob Dobbs: Kurt Vonnegut said once,
[24:32] Bob Dobbs: somebody,
[24:33] Bob Dobbs: a story or something says,
[24:35] Bob Dobbs: is E equals MC squared?
[24:36] Bob Dobbs: Sometimes.
[24:39] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[24:39] Cameron McEwen: that's good.
[24:41] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[24:41] Bob Dobbs: that's what we're talking about here.
[24:42] Bob Dobbs: So the electric environment is here to erase everybody's identity,
[24:47] Bob Dobbs: which is what I call the second coming,
[24:49] Bob Dobbs: this great equalizer of the endless...
[24:55] Bob Dobbs: Everybody's identity is erased.
[24:57] Bob Dobbs: That's always going to happen,
[24:59] Bob Dobbs: collectively.
[25:01] Bob Dobbs: And so if people feel it's very chaotic now,
[25:04] Bob Dobbs: we're just going through that phrase where it's falling apart.
[25:07] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[25:08] Bob Dobbs: it's normal.
[25:09] Bob Dobbs: And possible because of the digital environment.
[25:12] Bob Dobbs: So our technologies mime the stages of certainty and uncertainty.
[25:18] Bob Dobbs: We should recognize how much the uncertainty is caused by the present state of extended uncertainty.
[25:27] Bob Dobbs: And it subsides somehow.
[25:32] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[25:33] Cameron McEwen: does it subside or does the demand that it not be the case subsides?
[25:40] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[25:41] Cameron McEwen: the awareness.
[25:44] Cameron McEwen: The dynamic is like the ocean.
[25:47] Cameron McEwen: And you can wish that the ocean wasn't there or you can try to drain it or something like that.
[25:57] Cameron McEwen: But at the end of the day,
[26:00] Cameron McEwen: you have to accept it.
[26:02] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan talks about,
[26:04] Cameron McEwen: I think it was Margaret Fuller says to Carlyle,
[26:08] Cameron McEwen: I accept the universe,
[26:10] Cameron McEwen: and Carlyle says back to her,
[26:11] Cameron McEwen: well,
[26:12] Cameron McEwen: you better.
[26:14] Bob Dobbs: So this is the close liaison between private and corporate awareness,
[26:19] Bob Dobbs: though which exerts the most effect on the other may depend entirely on the degree of awareness achieved.
[26:25] Bob Dobbs: That's pointing to what we're talking about.
[26:29] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[26:29] Cameron McEwen: so...
[26:30] Cameron McEwen: By the way,
[26:31] Cameron McEwen: I just want to mention that notice that this is from
[26:35] Cameron McEwen: Cliché to Archetype,
[26:37] Cameron McEwen: so 1970.
[26:38] Cameron McEwen: And 1970 is where the quotes are about pre-tribal awareness.
[26:46] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[26:47] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[26:47] Cameron McEwen: They all come in 1970 from his talk that you found in Rolling Stone and then in the two letters.
[26:55] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[26:56] Bob Dobbs: so something in 1970...
[27:00] Bob Dobbs: falling apart,
[27:01] Bob Dobbs: something fell apart and he got this new pattern.
[27:03] Bob Dobbs: He saw something.
[27:06] Bob Dobbs: So he was emphasizing it.
[27:08] Cameron McEwen: He saw that this close liaison between private and corporate awareness,
[27:13] Cameron McEwen: what he calls private awareness there is pre-tribal awareness.
[27:18] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[27:19] Cameron McEwen: And it's the citadel that you were just quoting a little bit earlier in the book.
[27:25] Cameron McEwen: So what he is saying...
[27:29] Cameron McEwen: is that the private and corporate awareness are completely different,
[27:38] Cameron McEwen: but they're also inclusive.
[27:41] Cameron McEwen: And the whole goal of private or pre-tribal awareness is to realize that it only can have identifiable form in the corporate.
[27:56] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[27:57] Bob Dobbs: So I know that they...
[27:59] Bob Dobbs: For a large part of North America awareness,
[28:02] Bob Dobbs: 1970 was a bummer year.
[28:06] Bob Dobbs: Things fell apart,
[28:08] Bob Dobbs: and I think McLuhan saw that,
[28:10] Bob Dobbs: and he was describing,
[28:11] Bob Dobbs: well,
[28:11] Bob Dobbs: no,
[28:11] Bob Dobbs: it hasn't fallen apart,
[28:12] Bob Dobbs: we've retrieved pre-tribal awareness,
[28:14] Bob Dobbs: because there was so much what Baudrillard called the orgy.
[28:17] Bob Dobbs: He said,
[28:18] Bob Dobbs: after the orgy.
[28:19] Bob Dobbs: So there's all this orgy of mixed media and everything in the
[28:22] Bob Dobbs: 60s, Baroque spirals of excess,
[28:25] Bob Dobbs: and then it subsided,
[28:27] Bob Dobbs: symbolized by Nixon being elected.
[28:29] Bob Dobbs: And for the baby boomers,
[28:32] Bob Dobbs: Altamont,
[28:32] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[28:33] Bob Dobbs: a few months after Woodstock,
[28:34] Bob Dobbs: it was a disaster.
[28:36] Bob Dobbs: And then Kent State in May,
[28:38] Bob Dobbs: May 1970.
[28:40] Bob Dobbs: There was a depression that took over for the baby boomers.
[28:44] Bob Dobbs: I remember feeling that.
[28:46] Bob Dobbs: But it was bigger than generational.
[28:49] Bob Dobbs: And McLuhan saw it.
[28:50] Bob Dobbs: We had evolved,
[28:51] Bob Dobbs: quote,
[28:51] Bob Dobbs: evolved into the post-tribal awareness,
[28:55] Bob Dobbs: the tribal orgy of the 60s,
[28:57] Bob Dobbs: into a new quality.
[28:58] Bob Dobbs: And it wasn't a falling back to what Lester Bangs called a bland out.
[29:03] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[29:03] Bob Dobbs: we went from freak out to bland out.
[29:06] Bob Dobbs: The 70s were bland.
[29:07] Bob Dobbs: No,
[29:08] Bob Dobbs: we got into this pre-tribal awareness,
[29:12] Bob Dobbs: pre-medium massage.
[29:13] Bob Dobbs: It was actually a new autonomy,
[29:16] Bob Dobbs: a new singularity that was arrived at.
[29:18] Bob Dobbs: And that's why he would talk about that.
[29:22] Bob Dobbs: That was the mood for
[29:24] Cameron McEwen: 1970. Yeah,
[29:26] Cameron McEwen: well,
[29:26] Cameron McEwen: he almost...
[29:27] Cameron McEwen: died that year,
[29:27] Cameron McEwen: right?
[29:28] Cameron McEwen: He had a major heart attack and was in the hospital for a long time.
[29:34] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[29:34] Bob Dobbs: you know my pattern.
[29:36] Bob Dobbs: Every time there's a major shift,
[29:38] Bob Dobbs: he'd get ill.
[29:39] Cameron McEwen: In 51,
[29:40] Cameron McEwen: 60,
[29:41] Bob Dobbs: 67,
[29:45] Bob Dobbs: and I talk about the technologies at each phase.
[29:47] Bob Dobbs: Basically,
[29:47] Bob Dobbs: when television came in,
[29:48] Bob Dobbs: the late 40s or 50s,
[29:50] Bob Dobbs: he got affected.
[29:51] Bob Dobbs: Then when the satellite happened,
[29:54] Bob Dobbs: that's 1960.
[29:55] Bob Dobbs: Then the instant replay in the late 60s,
[30:00] Bob Dobbs: that's when he had his brain surgery,
[30:03] Bob Dobbs: and then...
[30:03] Bob Dobbs: This heart attack or whatever is the next mood which we're moving beyond media in a way,
[30:11] Bob Dobbs: with the 1970 mood of pre-tribal awareness retrieved.
[30:15] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[30:17] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[30:17] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[30:18] Cameron McEwen: I know what you mean,
[30:19] Cameron McEwen: but I don't think you can say moving beyond media.
[30:22] Bob Dobbs: I know.
[30:24] Bob Dobbs: You have to correct that.
[30:26] Bob Dobbs: And that's what Marshall McLuhan has in his first essay.
[30:28] Bob Dobbs: I think it's in the first essay in Explorations.
[30:31] Bob Dobbs: He's discussing what their seminar is doing.
[30:34] Bob Dobbs: And you can make suggestions or say things with the right to make self-correction or just correction.
[30:41] Bob Dobbs: Do you remember that line?
[30:44] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[30:44] Cameron McEwen: So,
[30:44] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[30:47] Cameron McEwen: you could say that that is human life.
[30:50] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[30:51] Bob Dobbs: that's where they were getting what he called the basics.
[30:55] Bob Dobbs: All the illusions of print and movies and each media phase had now,
[31:01] Bob Dobbs: you could see in the late 60s,
[31:03] Bob Dobbs: You had come to a plateau.
[31:09] Bob Dobbs: What was I just saying?
[31:13] Bob Dobbs: The no media was an effect of the satellite being extended.
[31:19] Bob Dobbs: And that's the end of our extensions.
[31:21] Bob Dobbs: Now the machines are going to take over and they're going to extend themselves.
[31:26] Bob Dobbs: So there's this period of where that's starting to happen in the
[31:30] Bob Dobbs: 70s, the digital world of the
[31:32] Bob Dobbs: 70s.
[31:33] Bob Dobbs: And there's this weird nowhere place in the early
[31:36] Bob Dobbs: 70s before the machine took over.
[31:43] Cameron McEwen: First symbolized by Reagan,
[31:46] Bob Dobbs: Reagan the actor becoming president.
[31:48] Bob Dobbs: That was a major effect.
[31:51] Bob Dobbs: That seemed very strange to people.
[31:56] Cameron McEwen: What you call the weird changeover period,
[32:02] Cameron McEwen: that's...
[32:02] Cameron McEwen: tactility.
[32:03] Bob Dobbs: Yep.
[32:04] Bob Dobbs: And it's actually becoming aware of tactility almost.
[32:08] Bob Dobbs: Or maybe you'd have a more complex definition of tactility.
[32:12] Bob Dobbs: And he does write in 74,
[32:15] Bob Dobbs: he talks about we're in the post-tactile.
[32:17] Bob Dobbs: And in the market,
[32:19] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[32:19] Bob Dobbs: immediate approach to inflation,
[32:21] Bob Dobbs: that was starting to invest in the interval.
[32:24] Bob Dobbs: He has it right in the op-ed.
[32:27] Bob Dobbs: Investing in the interval.
[32:28] Bob Dobbs: And Wall Street called it futures.
[32:33] Bob Dobbs: That was a new acceleration in Wall Street.
[32:38] Bob Dobbs: So it was post-tactile,
[32:41] Bob Dobbs: or at least a simple definition of tactility.
[32:44] Bob Dobbs: You'll complexify it.
[32:46] Bob Dobbs: You'll add factors in there.
[32:56] Bob Dobbs: So back to the two pages.
[33:01] Bob Dobbs: So we're saying,
[33:02] Bob Dobbs: people,
[33:04] Bob Dobbs: that divided consciousness ain't what it used to be.
[33:07] Bob Dobbs: Remember that?
[33:10] Bob Dobbs: The future ain't what it used to be.
[33:11] Bob Dobbs: The cells ain't what it used to be.
[33:14] Cameron McEwen: Ain't what it used to be,
[33:15] Cameron McEwen: only more so.
[33:16] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[33:17] Bob Dobbs: and it becomes the means of an inclusiveness.
[33:21] Bob Dobbs: So the more yelling and screaming going on,
[33:24] Bob Dobbs: the more inclusive everybody is.
[33:27] Bob Dobbs: So we have a curious merger with social media.
[33:31] Bob Dobbs: Very intensified,
[33:32] Bob Dobbs: where nobody has the authority in anything,
[33:35] Bob Dobbs: because anybody can blog,
[33:38] Bob Dobbs: they can create their own worlds.
[33:40] Bob Dobbs: There's a great leveling equality to this,
[33:44] Bob Dobbs: equal perceptual structure,
[33:48] Bob Dobbs: but on the surface creates what they say,
[33:50] Bob Dobbs: a very divided America today,
[33:52] Bob Dobbs: right?
[33:52] Bob Dobbs: We've never been so divided.
[33:56] Bob Dobbs: That means we've become more inclusive,
[33:58] Bob Dobbs: and that makes sense to myself as I say it.
[34:01] Bob Dobbs: Social media has really enhanced inclusivity or tactility,
[34:06] Bob Dobbs: tactility,
[34:08] Bob Dobbs: and that requires a lot of noise to drown it out.
[34:14] Bob Dobbs: There's too much silence.
[34:19] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[34:20] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[34:23] Cameron McEwen: what you're saying makes sense to me,
[34:24] Cameron McEwen: but as you know,
[34:28] Cameron McEwen: I would say that it's...
[34:31] Cameron McEwen: more complicated because the...
[34:33] Cameron McEwen: Yes,
[34:34] Bob Dobbs: you can't speak it.
[34:36] Bob Dobbs: The words ain't going to talk it.
[34:37] Bob Dobbs: Your mouth isn't complicating.
[34:39] Bob Dobbs: You can't generate enough complexity unless you talk Finneganese.
[34:45] Bob Dobbs: See,
[34:45] Bob Dobbs: that's where Finnegans Wake is very appropriate for the book to manifest that degree of incomprehensibility.
[34:56] Bob Dobbs: That's expressing what we're saying here.
[35:02] Bob Dobbs: So he's expressing the ineffable.
[35:07] Bob Dobbs: Isn't that a word Marshall McLuhan would use?
[35:09] Bob Dobbs: Intangential?
[35:11] Bob Dobbs: That was a word he used,
[35:12] Bob Dobbs: right?
[35:13] Bob Dobbs: Intangential.
[35:18] Cameron McEwen: I don't recall it.
[35:19] Bob Dobbs: Take Today,
[35:19] Bob Dobbs: the tangibility of the intangibles.
[35:22] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[35:23] Cameron McEwen: okay,
[35:23] Cameron McEwen: yeah,
[35:23] Cameron McEwen: yeah,
[35:23] Cameron McEwen: yeah,
[35:24] Cameron McEwen: I remember that.
[35:26] Cameron McEwen: That's why we're getting that.
[35:27] Cameron McEwen: That's very important,
[35:28] Cameron McEwen: right?
[35:29] Cameron McEwen: So what he's doing is he's complicating a word like ineffable,
[35:35] Cameron McEwen: which you just used.
[35:38] Cameron McEwen: What he's saying is...
[35:40] Cameron McEwen: The ineffable is always effable.
[35:45] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[35:47] Bob Dobbs: that means fuckable.
[35:50] Bob Dobbs: But when I,
[35:54] Bob Dobbs: in my radio show,
[35:55] Bob Dobbs: when I start talking,
[35:57] Bob Dobbs: making sense,
[35:59] Bob Dobbs: people like it.
[36:00] Bob Dobbs: But I know it's false.
[36:02] Bob Dobbs: I didn't get anywheres.
[36:03] Bob Dobbs: But they don't know that.
[36:04] Bob Dobbs: It's all new.
[36:05] Bob Dobbs: So they have the enjoyment of thinking they got somewheres.
[36:11] Bob Dobbs: They don't know the falling apart aspect yet.
[36:15] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[36:16] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[36:16] Cameron McEwen: they're probably coming from a certain degree of falling apart.
[36:21] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[36:22] Cameron McEwen: And then you come on and you start saying,
[36:24] Cameron McEwen: well,
[36:25] Cameron McEwen: look at this connection and look at this connection.
[36:27] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[36:28] Cameron McEwen: And they're thinking,
[36:29] Cameron McEwen: oh,
[36:29] Cameron McEwen: man,
[36:29] Cameron McEwen: maybe connection is stronger than the falling apart.
[36:35] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[36:36] Cameron McEwen: And what they would have to do.
[36:37] Cameron McEwen: to realize is that they're actually equal.
[36:40] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[36:41] Bob Dobbs: And so if they hang around and we and you know what happens,
[36:46] Bob Dobbs: usually they're enthusiastic for six months or so.
[36:48] Bob Dobbs: Then they start saying,
[36:50] Bob Dobbs: I don't remember what I thought I was getting out of this.
[36:56] Bob Dobbs: They start to fall apart beyond my hypno,
[36:59] Bob Dobbs: my hypnotism.
[37:00] Bob Dobbs: And and I welcome that's necessary,
[37:03] Bob Dobbs: but they don't know that I'm
[37:05] Bob Dobbs: I'm not upset that they aren't getting it.
[37:08] Bob Dobbs: you know and i don't complicate it by pointing it out they're discovering the falling apart so you let them be frustrated for a while then sometime luckily you point out well this is okay uh that you're not getting because i'll make you get it again and
[37:24] Bob Dobbs: start coming up with some stuff it'll work so yeah you're i'm detached from matching absolutely absolutely yeah yeah
[37:37] Cameron McEwen: But one thing that's funny about what you're saying is that you're saying you spend most of your time on the air,
[37:48] Cameron McEwen: as they say,
[37:50] Cameron McEwen: more or less doing collective psychotherapy.
[37:54] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[37:55] Cameron McEwen: All of these people are out there and they've got various problems.
[37:59] Cameron McEwen: And you're trying to deal collectively with all of these different problems.
[38:06] Cameron McEwen: You're like a sort of macroscopic Dr.
[38:10] Cameron McEwen: Freud.
[38:11] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[38:13] Bob Dobbs: I'm imposing collective awareness on their private awareness.
[38:17] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[38:18] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[38:18] Cameron McEwen: I don't know if not imposing,
[38:20] Cameron McEwen: because you can't do that,
[38:21] Cameron McEwen: but you're trying to untie knots and retie them.
[38:26] Cameron McEwen: And it's all involved in what Freud called transference.
[38:30] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[38:31] Cameron McEwen: where the cure for Freud...
[38:35] Cameron McEwen: was that the doctor would,
[38:38] Cameron McEwen: through conversation with the patient,
[38:41] Cameron McEwen: the doctor would take on for the patient the problems that the patient had.
[38:47] Cameron McEwen: And then when the doctor solved those problems for himself in the patient's eyes,
[38:54] Cameron McEwen: then the patient would realize,
[38:55] Cameron McEwen: well,
[38:56] Cameron McEwen: these problems can be solved.
[38:57] Cameron McEwen: And because they can only be solved by the individual person,
[39:03] Cameron McEwen: that's what pre-tribal awareness is.
[39:07] Cameron McEwen: But most people are locked into a certain way of exercising themselves and of looking at the world that,
[39:18] Cameron McEwen: in fact,
[39:19] Cameron McEwen: generates exactly the problems that they want to get rid of.
[39:25] Cameron McEwen: And,
[39:25] Cameron McEwen: of course,
[39:25] Cameron McEwen: they can't do that without transforming who that self is and what that world is.
[39:32] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[39:33] Bob Dobbs: so...
[39:34] Bob Dobbs: So people talk about breaking down.
[39:36] Bob Dobbs: They're just getting to the falling apart for the first time.
[39:41] Bob Dobbs: And if they start giving you tranquilizers and drugs,
[39:44] Bob Dobbs: that's not relevant.
[39:45] Bob Dobbs: You have to have someone intelligently massage you when you're going through that without creating therapies,
[39:51] Bob Dobbs: but maybe having temporary therapies,
[39:53] Bob Dobbs: but not to make it the only therapy.
[39:57] Bob Dobbs: So then people will get out of that.
[40:02] Bob Dobbs: They get relaxed again.
[40:04] Bob Dobbs: Something got them there.
[40:05] Bob Dobbs: Then you sort of have to tell them,
[40:06] Bob Dobbs: now you're going to fall apart again,
[40:08] Bob Dobbs: you know?
[40:10] Bob Dobbs: And then you start getting used to that.
[40:11] Bob Dobbs: That's what McLuhan was saying.
[40:12] Bob Dobbs: He said,
[40:13] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[40:13] Bob Dobbs: I know every full moon,
[40:15] Bob Dobbs: it's all going to fall apart.
[40:16] Bob Dobbs: I wonder who I am or why I'm talking about media.
[40:21] Bob Dobbs: How did I get into this situation?
[40:24] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely,
[40:25] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.
[40:26] Cameron McEwen: So it's a kind of swimming.
[40:28] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[40:33] Cameron McEwen: There is no such thing as individual permanence.
[40:39] Cameron McEwen: stability.
[40:42] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[40:43] Bob Dobbs: that was illustrated by,
[40:44] Bob Dobbs: we were looking up the words.
[40:45] Bob Dobbs: And I have all my notes for War and Peace and Global Village in the book,
[40:49] Bob Dobbs: and
[40:50] Bob Dobbs: I haven't wanted a quote from there in a context,
[40:53] Bob Dobbs: well,
[40:53] Bob Dobbs: we haven't wanted to,
[40:55] Bob Dobbs: this is the only public thing I'm doing in this con in the McLuhan world.
[40:59] Bob Dobbs: So,
[41:02] Bob Dobbs: I haven't needed my notes,
[41:04] Bob Dobbs: but I needed the notes tonight.
[41:05] Bob Dobbs: And I go,
[41:07] Bob Dobbs: and I look through the book,
[41:07] Bob Dobbs: and I say,
[41:08] Bob Dobbs: geez,
[41:08] Bob Dobbs: this is the one
[41:09] Bob Dobbs: fucking thing I left out.
[41:11] Bob Dobbs: I didn't put it in my notes.
[41:13] Bob Dobbs: I had it falling apart.
[41:16] Bob Dobbs: I made all these notes to cover all the different questions that might come up,
[41:20] Bob Dobbs: and it's quickly,
[41:20] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[41:20] Bob Dobbs: go back and find what you're talking about,
[41:22] Bob Dobbs: that maybe you brought up something.
[41:24] Bob Dobbs: But the one that I wanted,
[41:26] Bob Dobbs: that was the one I left out.
[41:30] Cameron McEwen: While we've been talking,
[41:33] Cameron McEwen: I've been kind of looking around,
[41:35] Cameron McEwen: and I think it's possible that instead of
[41:38] Cameron McEwen: the quote being in
[41:40] Cameron McEwen: War and Peace in the Global Village.
[41:42] Cameron McEwen: It may just be in the Global Village from
[41:45] Bob Dobbs: 89. No,
[41:48] Bob Dobbs: I have not read that book richly to remember parts.
[41:52] Cameron McEwen: No?
[41:53] Cameron McEwen: Because
[41:53] Cameron McEwen: I find quotations about incommensurable in there.
[41:59] Cameron McEwen: On page 8,
[42:00] Cameron McEwen: for example,
[42:00] Cameron McEwen: there's interchange but nevertheless incommensurable.
[42:08] Cameron McEwen: dialogue,
[42:09] Cameron McEwen: but...
[42:09] Bob Dobbs: That's not the line.
[42:11] Bob Dobbs: There's the word,
[42:11] Bob Dobbs: but it's not the line.
[42:12] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[42:12] Cameron McEwen: let me try the next one.
[42:13] Cameron McEwen: Next one is acoustic and visual space structure may be seen as incommensurable,
[42:19] Cameron McEwen: like history and eternity,
[42:21] Cameron McEwen: yet at the same time as complementary.
[42:24] Bob Dobbs: That's not the sentence,
[42:26] Bob Dobbs: but that's the idea.
[42:27] Bob Dobbs: I mean,
[42:28] Bob Dobbs: it looks like Bruce Powers,
[42:29] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[42:30] Bob Dobbs: got a grip on that word.
[42:32] Bob Dobbs: He's using it a lot there.
[42:35] Bob Dobbs: Because I only know of it like once.
[42:37] Bob Dobbs: in War and Peace.
[42:39] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[42:40] Cameron McEwen: which we couldn't find.
[42:41] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[42:41] Cameron McEwen: But I'll look for it over the next couple of weeks.
[42:44] Bob Dobbs: Is there any more in Global Village?
[42:46] Cameron McEwen: No,
[42:47] Cameron McEwen: there's two.
[42:48] Cameron McEwen: Or at least,
[42:49] Cameron McEwen: again,
[42:50] Cameron McEwen: I don't have the full book.
[42:53] Cameron McEwen: I just have fragments.
[42:55] Cameron McEwen: So it's possible that it is there,
[42:57] Cameron McEwen: and
[42:58] Cameron McEwen: I just don't have it.
[42:59] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[43:05] Bob Dobbs: So I'm saying that what we're experiencing
[43:07] Bob Dobbs: the process of apprehension and falling apart has happened,
[43:12] Bob Dobbs: has been externalized in the history of media.
[43:16] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[43:16] Cameron McEwen: well,
[43:17] Cameron McEwen: the history of media is that conflict.
[43:19] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[43:20] Bob Dobbs: but the electric environment,
[43:25] Bob Dobbs: we got to a cultural,
[43:27] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[43:27] Bob Dobbs: amoral,
[43:28] Bob Dobbs: a cultural in the
[43:31] Bob Dobbs: 70s. In some ways,
[43:33] Bob Dobbs: human culture was over.
[43:35] Bob Dobbs: No more extensions.
[43:36] Bob Dobbs: and the machines took over.
[43:37] Bob Dobbs: And that's probably what I'm trying to say,
[43:38] Bob Dobbs: that something took over the extensions that doesn't involve people.
[43:43] Bob Dobbs: Even though we are involved in it and making the technology,
[43:46] Bob Dobbs: we arrived at some kind of plateau in the 70s.
[43:52] Bob Dobbs: So there was a completion with the satellite,
[43:57] Bob Dobbs: and that's the effect of the satellite.
[43:59] Bob Dobbs: And we've been in that.
[44:02] Bob Dobbs: That effect,
[44:03] Bob Dobbs: it doesn't go away.
[44:04] Bob Dobbs: It's there.
[44:06] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[44:06] Cameron McEwen: I think what we should probably talk at this point about
[44:12] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan saying that the satellite represents the end of nature.
[44:17] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[44:19] Cameron McEwen: But in fact,
[44:20] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan talks about the end of nature before the satellites surround.
[44:26] Bob Dobbs: The printing press did that.
[44:28] Bob Dobbs: The printing press did it.
[44:31] Cameron McEwen: Pardon me?
[44:31] Cameron McEwen: Oh,
[44:31] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[44:32] Cameron McEwen: So,
[44:32] Cameron McEwen: yeah,
[44:33] Cameron McEwen: sometimes he says the printing press does it.
[44:35] Cameron McEwen: But at one point,
[44:38] Cameron McEwen: he said that the
[44:40] Cameron McEwen: Paleolithic man did it when he started making tools.
[44:46] Bob Dobbs: So
[44:49] Cameron McEwen: I take it that beyond nature fundamentally means that the ontology of the world cannot be purely...
[45:04] Cameron McEwen: material because human beings
[45:10] Cameron McEwen: introduce creativity.
[45:14] Cameron McEwen: They do it through making stone,
[45:16] Cameron McEwen: or they do it,
[45:18] Cameron McEwen: stone tools,
[45:19] Cameron McEwen: or they do it through the printing press,
[45:21] Cameron McEwen: or they do it through satellites.
[45:23] Cameron McEwen: But in all of these ways,
[45:25] Cameron McEwen: there is something going on that is more than material.
[45:28] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[45:29] Cameron McEwen: So,
[45:30] Cameron McEwen: in order...
[45:30] Bob Dobbs: That's the shaman.
[45:31] Bob Dobbs: The shaman,
[45:32] Bob Dobbs: it doesn't need a car or a plane.
[45:34] Bob Dobbs: It can travel to whatever,
[45:36] Bob Dobbs: dimensions of worlds,
[45:37] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[45:38] Bob Dobbs: and come back.
[45:39] Bob Dobbs: And so that is the original awareness,
[45:43] Bob Dobbs: having all these powers.
[45:45] Bob Dobbs: And it probably was very tactile because they didn't have a sense of distance.
[45:50] Bob Dobbs: They just could go from one frequency to another.
[45:52] Bob Dobbs: They weren't necessarily going someplace distance-wise.
[45:56] Bob Dobbs: They just could create different environments.
[45:58] Bob Dobbs: And if that's the realized person,
[46:02] Bob Dobbs: then all technologies are failures from that condition.
[46:06] Bob Dobbs: They're false.
[46:08] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[46:09] Cameron McEwen: That's right.
[46:10] Cameron McEwen: That's why the citadel of individual human awareness can never fall.
[46:18] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[46:18] Bob Dobbs: and that's what he meant by church.
[46:19] Bob Dobbs: So
[46:21] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan would dabble with ESP and psychic stuff.
[46:28] Bob Dobbs: So he knew that was in the person's being.
[46:33] Bob Dobbs: But if he was developing it,
[46:37] Bob Dobbs: he wouldn't tell us.
[46:40] Bob Dobbs: But it might have been the perspective that he was speaking from.
[46:43] Bob Dobbs: Like,
[46:44] Bob Dobbs: what is this pre-tribal awareness?
[46:47] Bob Dobbs: That means you're not involved with tools.
[46:52] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[46:55] Cameron McEwen: in one sense,
[46:56] Cameron McEwen: it means that you're prior to tools.
[46:58] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[46:59] Cameron McEwen: But in another sense,
[47:01] Cameron McEwen: it only becomes manifest through tools.
[47:05] Cameron McEwen: So really,
[47:06] Cameron McEwen: the first tool of human beings is language.
[47:10] Cameron McEwen: And there's no such thing as a human being that's somehow independent of language,
[47:20] Cameron McEwen: because it's through language that human beings are,
[47:25] Cameron McEwen: through language that we have our being.
[47:27] Bob Dobbs: That's the original pleasure.
[47:30] Bob Dobbs: And sin,
[47:31] Bob Dobbs: or falling,
[47:32] Bob Dobbs: is getting trapped in one aspect of your tools.
[47:37] Cameron McEwen: Yes.
[47:41] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[47:41] Cameron McEwen: so the tool is always an externalization.
[47:47] Cameron McEwen: And so humans are continually getting overtaken by their own externalizations rather than seeing the dialectic
[48:02] Cameron McEwen: between their pre-tribal awareness and its expression.
[48:09] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[48:10] Bob Dobbs: so they get,
[48:11] Bob Dobbs: quote,
[48:12] Bob Dobbs: addicted.
[48:13] Bob Dobbs: The new technology becomes too much of a novelty,
[48:16] Bob Dobbs: and they forget,
[48:19] Bob Dobbs: they don't allow it to fall away.
[48:21] Bob Dobbs: It's a pleasure,
[48:22] Bob Dobbs: a novelty,
[48:23] Bob Dobbs: but you've got to let it drop.
[48:25] Bob Dobbs: You've got to be disappointed in it at some point,
[48:29] Bob Dobbs: so you recover the initial awareness.
[48:32] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[48:33] Cameron McEwen: but that can only happen through falling apart.
[48:35] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[48:36] Bob Dobbs: so technology is a natural.
[48:38] Bob Dobbs: accompaniment of our being correct correct incommensurable but complimentary yeah absolutely what is that the the book of nature and the sacred page yes
[48:55] Bob Dobbs: yes so the very component that makes for a divided consciousness we're describing a divided consciousness but that becomes the means of a new inclusiveness right with a certain encouragement
[49:07] Bob Dobbs: that would be an extension.
[49:11] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[49:11] Cameron McEwen: hard to say.
[49:12] Cameron McEwen: A certain encouragement that I think McLuhan,
[49:14] Cameron McEwen: at the end of the day,
[49:15] Cameron McEwen: he'd say that's faith.
[49:17] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[49:18] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[49:20] Bob Dobbs: with a certain confidence.
[49:22] Cameron McEwen: Yes,
[49:23] Cameron McEwen: yes.
[49:25] Cameron McEwen: So that's the somersault.
[49:27] Cameron McEwen: People don't have the strength to come to this awareness,
[49:32] Cameron McEwen: but in order to come to this awareness,
[49:34] Cameron McEwen: you must have the strength already.
[49:36] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[49:37] Cameron McEwen: So.
[49:38] Cameron McEwen: The reason that faith cannot come through works is that it must already be there in order to do the work.
[49:46] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[49:47] Bob Dobbs: and that's what McLuhan called grace.
[49:48] Bob Dobbs: He would talk about,
[49:49] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[49:49] Bob Dobbs: his essay on,
[49:50] Bob Dobbs: review on Melville.
[49:52] Bob Dobbs: Melville didn't have grace,
[49:54] Bob Dobbs: so he got locked in all the conspiracy
[49:56] Bob Dobbs: Masonic stuff,
[49:58] Bob Dobbs: you know.
[49:59] Bob Dobbs: And he gets into the dark and gets trapped.
[50:02] Bob Dobbs: I think McLuhan thought he had grace.
[50:05] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[50:05] Cameron McEwen: definitely,
[50:06] Cameron McEwen: definitely he did.
[50:08] Bob Dobbs: And so it's a kid who somehow gets through the problems of childhood.
[50:14] Bob Dobbs: with a bit of confidence still intact,
[50:17] Bob Dobbs: didn't get embedded in a neurosis,
[50:19] Bob Dobbs: an emotional problem,
[50:20] Bob Dobbs: which is an early subtle extension.
[50:24] Bob Dobbs: So if you're lucky,
[50:26] Bob Dobbs: you get to adulthood with grace.
[50:29] Bob Dobbs: You've got that pre-social confidence.
[50:34] Cameron McEwen: Correct.
[50:35] Cameron McEwen: So we could say that on the one hand,
[50:40] Cameron McEwen: what has happened to the world is that the...
[50:44] Cameron McEwen: resources that are needed by the family to bring up children knowing that they have that strength.
[50:53] Cameron McEwen: Those resources are being pulled away from the world.
[50:57] Cameron McEwen: So children are growing up without an anchor,
[51:01] Cameron McEwen: and that's a kind of universal neurosis.
[51:06] Cameron McEwen: So what happened to McLuhan is he came from a very screwed up family,
[51:11] Cameron McEwen: One that...
[51:13] Cameron McEwen: was dysfunctional in many ways,
[51:16] Cameron McEwen: but somehow he had the strength that usually only comes through a very functional family.
[51:27] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[51:27] Bob Dobbs: that's right.
[51:29] Cameron McEwen: Because McLuhan had that what might be called non-foundational strength,
[51:38] Cameron McEwen: he thought that he had the resource in his personality
[51:43] Cameron McEwen: to pass that on to the world,
[51:46] Cameron McEwen: to cure the universal neurosis through whatever it was that he went through to achieve the strength that he had.
[51:57] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[51:57] Bob Dobbs: you can see that in his college essays.
[52:00] Bob Dobbs: He has this great confidence that he could take over the UN and start explaining everything to everybody.
[52:06] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[52:07] Cameron McEwen: Sure.
[52:08] Cameron McEwen: And what's interesting,
[52:10] Cameron McEwen: or at least one of the many things that's interesting,
[52:12] Cameron McEwen: As McLuhan was saying already around 1930,
[52:18] Cameron McEwen: that these,
[52:21] Cameron McEwen: you know,
[52:21] Cameron McEwen: becoming famous,
[52:22] Cameron McEwen: becoming powerful,
[52:23] Cameron McEwen: becoming rich,
[52:25] Cameron McEwen: these are just masks that can be put on by anybody if they decide to do so.
[52:33] Cameron McEwen: So then,
[52:35] Cameron McEwen: let's say that's 1930.
[52:38] Cameron McEwen: So
[52:39] Cameron McEwen: 35 years later.
[52:42] Cameron McEwen: when he's already talked in the interim about manufacturing fame and stuff
[52:47] Cameron McEwen: 35 years later he uses the san francisco boys yeah to manufacture fame yeah he says okay i was saying this now i'm going to show you how you do it yeah and he did he did as an art form yeah and he knew that was the new art object in quotes you know the art object was no longer art consciousness influencing
[53:10] Bob Dobbs: consciousness was the new art
[53:16] Bob Dobbs: I mean by that what you were just saying.
[53:18] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if that's the right word,
[53:19] Bob Dobbs: but,
[53:20] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[53:21] Bob Dobbs: watching how consciousness changed.
[53:24] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[53:24] Cameron McEwen: So for 10 years between the end of the
[53:31] Cameron McEwen: Second World War and 1955,
[53:34] Cameron McEwen: 1956,
[53:36] Cameron McEwen: the main thing that McLuhan was studying was the correlation between ordinary consciousness and art.
[53:44] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[53:44] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[53:45] Bob Dobbs: Ordinary consciousness is very important to him.
[53:48] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[53:48] Cameron McEwen: but he was saying that it works both ways,
[53:52] Cameron McEwen: right?
[53:54] Cameron McEwen: Everybody isn't necessarily an artist,
[53:57] Cameron McEwen: but they need to realize that art is going on in their consciousness,
[54:02] Cameron McEwen: what he often calls the formation of consciousness.
[54:05] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[54:06] Cameron McEwen: And then on the other side,
[54:08] Cameron McEwen: he's saying,
[54:09] Cameron McEwen: if you want to understand what the artists are doing,
[54:12] Cameron McEwen: And even if the artists want to understand what they're doing,
[54:15] Cameron McEwen: they need to understand that they're retrieving ordinary consciousness.
[54:20] Cameron McEwen: They're showing the steps of the formation of consciousness.
[54:25] Bob Dobbs: The completion they already had at the beginning.
[54:28] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[54:28] Cameron McEwen: well,
[54:30] Cameron McEwen: that everybody is already doing.
[54:31] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[54:33] Bob Dobbs: and Eliot tries to say that in his poems.
[54:36] Bob Dobbs: He has a few sentences about that.
[54:38] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[54:38] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[54:39] Bob Dobbs: you go the whole journey,
[54:40] Bob Dobbs: and you end up back where you started.
[54:42] Cameron McEwen: Sure.
[54:43] Bob Dobbs: But listen to this.
[54:45] Bob Dobbs: I was talking about Elon Musk the other day.
[54:48] Bob Dobbs: And Elon Musk had the most violent upbringing.
[54:52] Bob Dobbs: His father was a monster.
[54:54] Bob Dobbs: I didn't know this,
[54:55] Bob Dobbs: but I knew it.
[54:56] Bob Dobbs: And so he survived that.
[54:59] Bob Dobbs: And so he was determined to get something or achieve something.
[55:03] Bob Dobbs: He had this ferocious reaction to that.
[55:08] Bob Dobbs: Ambition.
[55:09] Bob Dobbs: And so he got...
[55:10] Bob Dobbs: He dipped into,
[55:11] Bob Dobbs: he didn't invent
[55:13] Bob Dobbs: PayPal, but he was part of it for a minute,
[55:15] Bob Dobbs: and he was part of this,
[55:15] Bob Dobbs: part of that,
[55:16] Bob Dobbs: and he would grab things,
[55:17] Bob Dobbs: and he got some government to give him $50 billion.
[55:20] Bob Dobbs: But
[55:21] Bob Dobbs: I was pointing out that you don't need,
[55:25] Bob Dobbs: well,
[55:25] Bob Dobbs: I said,
[55:25] Bob Dobbs: well,
[55:26] Bob Dobbs: what you're saying,
[55:26] Bob Dobbs: iON,
[55:26] Bob Dobbs: is that the bourgeois ideas about how to properly bring up a kid doesn't apply.
[55:37] Bob Dobbs: You see what I'm saying?
[55:39] Bob Dobbs: The kid has to have a proper emotional support and all this stupid stuff that people think.
[55:45] Bob Dobbs: That actually doesn't prepare them for the confidence that Elon Musk got to.
[55:52] Cameron McEwen: I think what I would say there is that most people,
[55:57] Cameron McEwen: if they're going to achieve or if they're going to express a certain strength,
[56:04] Cameron McEwen: a certain confidence in life,
[56:06] Cameron McEwen: they do need.
[56:09] Cameron McEwen: not a bourgeois upbringing,
[56:11] Cameron McEwen: but just the upbringing of a functional family.
[56:15] Bob Dobbs: An aware family.
[56:18] Bob Dobbs: The parents have to be aware of all these dynamics.
[56:24] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[56:24] Cameron McEwen: you know,
[56:25] Cameron McEwen: sometimes...
[56:25] Bob Dobbs: That includes the falling apart of the family.
[56:28] Bob Dobbs: You have to include that,
[56:29] Bob Dobbs: too.
[56:31] Bob Dobbs: I mean,
[56:32] Bob Dobbs: most parents,
[56:32] Bob Dobbs: the cliche is they expect their teenager kids to not like them for a while,
[56:37] Bob Dobbs: right?
[56:39] Bob Dobbs: That's where the innocent family falls apart,
[56:43] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[56:43] Bob Dobbs: 14,
[56:44] Bob Dobbs: 15.
[56:45] Bob Dobbs: The kids,
[56:47] Bob Dobbs: they want to hang out with their peers,
[56:50] Bob Dobbs: and they get more satisfaction in learning from that.
[56:54] Bob Dobbs: They're not listening to their parents anymore,
[56:56] Bob Dobbs: and they go through that stubbornness for a while.
[57:00] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[57:01] Bob Dobbs: people don't even have the same kind of family anymore.
[57:04] Bob Dobbs: See,
[57:04] Bob Dobbs: it's really complicated now because they're lost in machinery so much.
[57:09] Bob Dobbs: distracting machinery between you and the parent.
[57:15] Cameron McEwen: These things are culturally mediated,
[57:20] Cameron McEwen: right?
[57:21] Cameron McEwen: So we shouldn't presuppose that the way families function is the same across all cultures and all times.
[57:32] Cameron McEwen: There's a whole myriad of ways that families function.
[57:38] Cameron McEwen: It's just in a world that's become a global village where there's a monoculture,
[57:44] Cameron McEwen: we've got a huge problem in that the monoculture is attacking the family,
[57:51] Cameron McEwen: and when the family gets attacked,
[57:54] Cameron McEwen: then individual identity doesn't have the tools to integrate itself.
[58:02] Bob Dobbs: And neither does the culture.
[58:03] Bob Dobbs: The culture's identity doesn't work.
[58:06] Cameron McEwen: Correct.
[58:08] Cameron McEwen: The dividedness of everything is what begins to stare everybody in the face.
[58:20] Cameron McEwen: So it's only exceptional individuals like Musk,
[58:25] Cameron McEwen: like McLuhan,
[58:26] Cameron McEwen: who somehow have transcended those divisions.
[58:35] Cameron McEwen: And then they sort of come back.
[58:38] Cameron McEwen: from that transcendence,
[58:41] Cameron McEwen: they come back from that,
[58:43] Cameron McEwen: and they try to express to the world at large that while these divisions are not unreal,
[58:58] Cameron McEwen: they are also not all-powerful.
[59:02] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[59:02] Bob Dobbs: they become disruptors.
[59:04] Bob Dobbs: They become environments themselves.
[59:07] Bob Dobbs: Just like,
[59:08] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[59:09] Bob Dobbs: Jesus is supposed to have said,
[59:10] Bob Dobbs: I've come to divide brother against brother,
[59:14] Bob Dobbs: or what he will do will divide people as well as,
[59:18] Bob Dobbs: quote,
[59:18] Bob Dobbs: integrate them or something.
[59:20] Cameron McEwen: Yes,
[59:20] Cameron McEwen: but the whole key there is as well as.
[59:24] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[59:25] Cameron McEwen: That's what we're constantly talking about.
[59:27] Cameron McEwen: That's what McLuhan was constantly talking about.
[59:30] Cameron McEwen: That's tactility.
[59:32] Cameron McEwen: That's the liaison and the quotation that you have.
[59:37] Cameron McEwen: at the top of 131.
[59:40] Cameron McEwen: It's this difficult complementarity that includes the incommensurable.
[59:49] Bob Dobbs: And so,
[59:49] Bob Dobbs: iON's always,
[59:50] Bob Dobbs: over the past six months,
[59:51] Bob Dobbs: he's been using that a lot.
[59:53] Bob Dobbs: As you say some stuff,
[59:54] Bob Dobbs: he says something,
[59:55] Bob Dobbs: and then you go,
[59:55] Bob Dobbs: as well as,
[59:57] Cameron McEwen: he would do that.
[1:00:00] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:00:00] Cameron McEwen: uh-huh.
[1:00:01] Bob Dobbs: So that's the plus,
[1:00:03] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:00:03] Bob Dobbs: both and.
[1:00:05] Cameron McEwen: Yep.
[1:00:07] Bob Dobbs: So,
[1:00:08] Bob Dobbs: uh...
[1:00:11] Bob Dobbs: Let's see what I've got here.
[1:00:16] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:00:16] Cameron McEwen: before you do that,
[1:00:17] Cameron McEwen: let me just go back briefly to this question of nature.
[1:00:22] Cameron McEwen: I think this may be very important for the tech body.
[1:00:27] Cameron McEwen: For McLuhan,
[1:00:30] Cameron McEwen: I believe the end of nature meant that we needed to understand And...
[1:00:40] Cameron McEwen: that the whole basis of things is not material,
[1:00:46] Cameron McEwen: and especially it's not some particular configuration of the material.
[1:00:53] Cameron McEwen: Rather,
[1:00:54] Cameron McEwen: at the very basis of things,
[1:00:56] Cameron McEwen: there is not only the material universe,
[1:01:01] Cameron McEwen: there's also creativity.
[1:01:03] Bob Dobbs: Ah,
[1:01:03] Bob Dobbs: now that's the definition of imagination in Gutenberg Galaxy.
[1:01:07] Bob Dobbs: That's it.
[1:01:08] Bob Dobbs: Faculty,
[1:01:08] Bob Dobbs: which is not embedded in any sense or extension of sense.
[1:01:11] Bob Dobbs: That's what you're talking about.
[1:01:13] Cameron McEwen: Yes,
[1:01:14] Cameron McEwen: yes.
[1:01:14] Bob Dobbs: And imagination is another word for creativity.
[1:01:17] Cameron McEwen: Yes,
[1:01:18] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.
[1:01:19] Cameron McEwen: So what I'm trying to point out here is that
[1:01:23] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan had this very interesting,
[1:01:27] Cameron McEwen: very complex notion of what the end of nature was.
[1:01:32] Cameron McEwen: But you seem to say that either...
[1:01:38] Cameron McEwen: against that or parallel to that or in some relationship to that,
[1:01:43] Cameron McEwen: the end of nature for you means that the machine has taken over the function that nature used to have.
[1:01:54] Bob Dobbs: It's the new nature,
[1:01:55] Bob Dobbs: which McLuhan used to say.
[1:01:57] Bob Dobbs: We don't realize that technologies are in nature.
[1:01:59] Bob Dobbs: So there's the end of the nature that visual space enframed.
[1:02:04] Bob Dobbs: because primitive people...
[1:02:06] Bob Dobbs: don't have an image of nature.
[1:02:08] Bob Dobbs: It's an invisible environment,
[1:02:09] Bob Dobbs: and they're always exploring it.
[1:02:11] Bob Dobbs: Once we start to write and frame things with symbolism,
[1:02:15] Bob Dobbs: that made a container.
[1:02:17] Bob Dobbs: And then we gradually put all of nature,
[1:02:19] Bob Dobbs: the eye,
[1:02:20] Bob Dobbs: what you could see and hear in this box.
[1:02:24] Bob Dobbs: Then the box could unravel with the electric new nature.
[1:02:27] Cameron McEwen: Correct.
[1:02:28] Cameron McEwen: Yes,
[1:02:28] Cameron McEwen: all of that is absolutely the way it is.
[1:02:32] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:02:32] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:02:33] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:02:33] Cameron McEwen: But don't you...
[1:02:36] Cameron McEwen: Don't you then say that there's a kind of linear progression here that then leads beyond humans putting things in the box to machines putting things in the box?
[1:02:51] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:02:52] Bob Dobbs: the machines are doing it.
[1:02:55] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[1:02:56] Cameron McEwen: But what I don't get,
[1:02:58] Cameron McEwen: and it may be that the machines putting things in a box,
[1:03:02] Cameron McEwen: that's going to either...
[1:03:05] Cameron McEwen: show us what the tech body is or lead to seeing what the tech body is,
[1:03:11] Cameron McEwen: something like that.
[1:03:13] Cameron McEwen: But I don't understand the relationship between that linearity and what I see as going on here,
[1:03:20] Cameron McEwen: which is a simultaneity and all at once.
[1:03:24] Cameron McEwen: That is to say that these different possibilities which get realized in history aren't possibilities that just...
[1:03:33] Cameron McEwen: you know,
[1:03:34] Cameron McEwen: sort of get invented in history or something,
[1:03:36] Cameron McEwen: they're below history.
[1:03:38] Cameron McEwen: And so when people are living in a primarily tactile environment,
[1:03:46] Cameron McEwen: let's say,
[1:03:48] Cameron McEwen: that's no invention of them.
[1:03:51] Cameron McEwen: That's an expression of tactility.
[1:03:54] Cameron McEwen: Or when they're living in the Gutenberg Galaxy,
[1:03:57] Cameron McEwen: that's not an invention.
[1:03:59] Cameron McEwen: That's an expression of visuality.
[1:04:02] Cameron McEwen: And other times there can be an expression of the acoustic.
[1:04:09] Cameron McEwen: So the idea of the innervation or the agency of media in that way,
[1:04:22] Cameron McEwen: that has some kind of relationship to the tech body,
[1:04:27] Cameron McEwen: but I don't know what it is.
[1:04:30] Bob Dobbs: Just stick in,
[1:04:31] Bob Dobbs: instead of divided,
[1:04:32] Bob Dobbs: put linear,
[1:04:33] Bob Dobbs: and for inclusive,
[1:04:34] Bob Dobbs: simultaneous,
[1:04:35] Bob Dobbs: and redo,
[1:04:36] Bob Dobbs: just,
[1:04:37] Bob Dobbs: you've got to have both.
[1:04:39] Bob Dobbs: And iON always says there's two conversations to everything,
[1:04:42] Bob Dobbs: so you have two sides of the brain,
[1:04:44] Bob Dobbs: linear and non-linear,
[1:04:45] Bob Dobbs: supposedly.
[1:04:46] Cameron McEwen: Yes,
[1:04:47] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.
[1:04:48] Bob Dobbs: So you're going to have both,
[1:04:49] Bob Dobbs: so you're going to have,
[1:04:50] Bob Dobbs: this is where we're complementary.
[1:04:53] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:04:54] Bob Dobbs: only through the chart do I look like I'm being linear,
[1:04:56] Bob Dobbs: but I'm pointing out that that's what happens when you use paper.
[1:05:00] Bob Dobbs: It is showing a simultaneous process.
[1:05:04] Bob Dobbs: So you misinterpreted my linearity as only...
[1:05:10] Bob Dobbs: It's all of me,
[1:05:11] Bob Dobbs: and that was only half of me.
[1:05:13] Cameron McEwen: No,
[1:05:13] Cameron McEwen: no,
[1:05:13] Cameron McEwen: I'm not.
[1:05:14] Cameron McEwen: No,
[1:05:15] Cameron McEwen: no,
[1:05:15] Cameron McEwen: I understand that.
[1:05:17] Cameron McEwen: You're very well able to talk about tactility and inclusivity and all that.
[1:05:21] Cameron McEwen: That's not a problem.
[1:05:22] Cameron McEwen: What I don't understand is what is the relationship between the sort of simultaneous linear dialectic or dialogue or tactility?
[1:05:33] Cameron McEwen: What's the relationship of that to the tech body?
[1:05:38] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:05:38] Bob Dobbs: well,
[1:05:38] Bob Dobbs: the tech body would include both.
[1:05:40] Bob Dobbs: The tech body,
[1:05:42] Bob Dobbs: in a sense,
[1:05:42] Bob Dobbs: is inclusive consciousness.
[1:05:44] Bob Dobbs: See,
[1:05:45] Bob Dobbs: the,
[1:05:45] Bob Dobbs: what's that,
[1:05:46] Bob Dobbs: go back to the quote,
[1:05:50] Bob Dobbs: become the means of an inclusive consciousness.
[1:05:52] Bob Dobbs: So the tech body is a means of inclusive consciousness.
[1:05:56] Bob Dobbs: So the very components,
[1:05:58] Bob Dobbs: the bodies,
[1:05:59] Bob Dobbs: make for a divided consciousness,
[1:06:02] Bob Dobbs: but they also can become the means of an inclusive consciousness.
[1:06:06] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:06:06] Bob Dobbs: to say that we are...
[1:06:08] Bob Dobbs: made inclusive by external technology.
[1:06:11] Bob Dobbs: That's like the ultimate fall.
[1:06:13] Bob Dobbs: But you've got to accept that and see through it and past it while coming to it,
[1:06:22] Bob Dobbs: capitulating.
[1:06:25] Cameron McEwen: I agree completely with that.
[1:06:28] Cameron McEwen: But in what you just said,
[1:06:30] Cameron McEwen: where is the tech body?
[1:06:33] Bob Dobbs: We wouldn't know.
[1:06:36] Bob Dobbs: And this is what now...
[1:06:38] Bob Dobbs: I have the unique situation of talking to iON about the tech body.
[1:06:43] Bob Dobbs: And iON started off saying it was
[1:06:46] Bob Dobbs: 11 to 3,
[1:06:47] Bob Dobbs: iON over the tech body.
[1:06:48] Bob Dobbs: And over the last three years,
[1:06:51] Bob Dobbs: the tech body caught up,
[1:06:53] Bob Dobbs: and it was
[1:06:54] Bob Dobbs: 5.5 instead of 11,
[1:06:56] Bob Dobbs: 5.5 to 5.5.
[1:06:57] Bob Dobbs: And now iON,
[1:06:59] Bob Dobbs: over the past year or so,
[1:07:00] Bob Dobbs: said the tech body moved ahead,
[1:07:03] Bob Dobbs: but iON would not give up.
[1:07:05] Bob Dobbs: It wasn't over yet.
[1:07:09] Bob Dobbs: And so when it first happened,
[1:07:13] Bob Dobbs: I said,
[1:07:13] Bob Dobbs: look,
[1:07:13] Bob Dobbs: people,
[1:07:13] Bob Dobbs: we've got to realize that when you're taunting an iON,
[1:07:15] Bob Dobbs: you've got to say,
[1:07:16] Bob Dobbs: am I taunting the tech body or iON?
[1:07:18] Bob Dobbs: And I allowed that to happen.
[1:07:20] Bob Dobbs: And you would ask,
[1:07:21] Bob Dobbs: and sometimes he would say you're taunting the tech body,
[1:07:23] Bob Dobbs: and other times it was iON.
[1:07:24] Bob Dobbs: But a year or so ago,
[1:07:26] Bob Dobbs: that's three years ago,
[1:07:27] Bob Dobbs: a year or so ago,
[1:07:28] Bob Dobbs: I had admitted
[1:07:29] Bob Dobbs: I couldn't tell the difference anymore.
[1:07:33] Bob Dobbs: So it was getting more complicated.
[1:07:35] Bob Dobbs: But that's...
[1:07:36] Bob Dobbs: what you're saying you it's you will not be able to tell and that's part of a larger falling apart you got to accept that we're not going to be able to tell anymore uh-huh but um but that's only that's
[1:07:52] Bob Dobbs: what i say to other people that's not how i'm living which i can't tell you i i can't explain you know words are just complicated but what's it what's the difference
[1:08:05] Cameron McEwen: then between the tech body and language when this sort of mega inclusivity is what McLuhan called language but it sounds very much like how you're describing the tech body.
[1:08:21] Bob Dobbs: It is.
[1:08:22] Bob Dobbs: And remember,
[1:08:23] Bob Dobbs: the spoken word,
[1:08:24] Bob Dobbs: flower of evil,
[1:08:25] Bob Dobbs: began there.
[1:08:31] Bob Dobbs: So you were saying the tech body
[1:08:35] Bob Dobbs: Language,
[1:08:36] Bob Dobbs: just say a few of what you just said,
[1:08:37] Bob Dobbs: a few words,
[1:08:38] Bob Dobbs: because I had something right there.
[1:08:41] Bob Dobbs: I've lost it.
[1:08:43] Bob Dobbs: You were saying the tech body,
[1:08:45] Bob Dobbs: what?
[1:08:49] Cameron McEwen: It's language.
[1:08:50] Cameron McEwen: You were talking about the tech body.
[1:08:54] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[1:08:54] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[1:08:54] Bob Dobbs: I know what I was going to say.
[1:08:57] Bob Dobbs: So you have a wall,
[1:09:00] Bob Dobbs: and the privacy of awareness is the stone.
[1:09:03] Bob Dobbs: And the stone is put in the wall,
[1:09:07] Bob Dobbs: which is cement or something that holds the stones in place.
[1:09:11] Bob Dobbs: So that's society and the interplay of private awareness and corporate awareness.
[1:09:16] Bob Dobbs: So Einstein says the stuff that holds the stones together in the wall,
[1:09:21] Bob Dobbs: the clay,
[1:09:22] Bob Dobbs: the cement,
[1:09:23] Bob Dobbs: is mortar.
[1:09:24] Bob Dobbs: He called it mortar.
[1:09:26] Bob Dobbs: So when I started bringing in McLuhan language and technology,
[1:09:30] Bob Dobbs: was mortar fitting into his metaphor?
[1:09:32] Bob Dobbs: He agreed with that.
[1:09:34] Bob Dobbs: So the mortar is falling away,
[1:09:39] Bob Dobbs: and so people are now propped up as billiard balls or stones,
[1:09:45] Bob Dobbs: and they can't see where the mortar has gone.
[1:09:48] Bob Dobbs: It's still there,
[1:09:50] Bob Dobbs: but it's actually become more invisible.
[1:09:52] Bob Dobbs: That's what the tech body is.
[1:09:53] Bob Dobbs: It's invading everybody,
[1:09:55] Bob Dobbs: and yet it looks like it ain't there anymore.
[1:09:57] Bob Dobbs: So the effect of digital technology is to make people feel more autonomous.
[1:10:03] Bob Dobbs: But it's totally propped up by an invisible process,
[1:10:05] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:10:06] Bob Dobbs: The digital environment.
[1:10:08] Bob Dobbs: And so it's an illusion that you're becoming free of the legacy media,
[1:10:14] Bob Dobbs: the tribal media,
[1:10:17] Bob Dobbs: all the analog media.
[1:10:19] Bob Dobbs: That's an illusion.
[1:10:21] Bob Dobbs: I don't want to say the final seduction,
[1:10:23] Bob Dobbs: but it's a major dramatic seduction that people are feeling they can be any gender,
[1:10:31] Bob Dobbs: any class,
[1:10:32] Bob Dobbs: anything,
[1:10:32] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:10:34] Bob Dobbs: That's a seduction of...
[1:10:36] Bob Dobbs: the present invisible environment,
[1:10:37] Bob Dobbs: which is the tech body.
[1:10:40] Cameron McEwen: Okay,
[1:10:40] Cameron McEwen: good.
[1:10:41] Cameron McEwen: So that's like saying there's a difference between a tribal language and language itself.
[1:10:52] Bob Dobbs: Squared.
[1:10:53] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:10:54] Bob Dobbs: language squared.
[1:10:55] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:10:55] Cameron McEwen: exactly.
[1:10:56] Cameron McEwen: So you could then say that it's like McLuhan saying that an electrical engineer
[1:11:04] Cameron McEwen: Sorry,
[1:11:05] Cameron McEwen: the prince of the world is the greatest possible electrical engineer,
[1:11:09] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:11:10] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:11:11] Cameron McEwen: You seem to be saying that the great problem we're locked into is that we are formed and
[1:11:26] Cameron McEwen: held in place by a certain notion of language and where we have to get to.
[1:11:34] Cameron McEwen: to is a completely different notion of language,
[1:11:38] Cameron McEwen: one that involves falling apart as much as being in place.
[1:11:45] Cameron McEwen: But what prevents us from getting to that larger macroscopic notion of language is the notion of language that we're trapped in.
[1:12:00] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[1:12:02] Cameron McEwen: And so...
[1:12:03] Cameron McEwen: I guess maybe you're saying that the tech body is this language that traps away from language.
[1:12:16] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[1:12:17] Bob Dobbs: So you have language coming out of the mouth,
[1:12:21] Bob Dobbs: but for tribal people,
[1:12:23] Bob Dobbs: it's the whole body communicating,
[1:12:26] Bob Dobbs: gesture and everything.
[1:12:27] Bob Dobbs: Then it gets specialized.
[1:12:29] Bob Dobbs: Then it becomes writing.
[1:12:30] Bob Dobbs: Then it starts getting electrified.
[1:12:35] Bob Dobbs: There's where McLuhan's saying,
[1:12:36] Bob Dobbs: there's a,
[1:12:37] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:12:38] Bob Dobbs: from War and Peace,
[1:12:39] Bob Dobbs: I read that sentence,
[1:12:39] Bob Dobbs: a language is bigger than words.
[1:12:43] Bob Dobbs: So the technological languages are the new nature that are being added to you.
[1:12:49] Bob Dobbs: So you're larger,
[1:12:50] Bob Dobbs: you are a macroscopic gesticulation,
[1:12:52] Bob Dobbs: and the digital technology externalized that,
[1:12:55] Bob Dobbs: so everybody has the whole world as their content,
[1:12:59] Bob Dobbs: which is the essay on Burroughs.
[1:13:01] Bob Dobbs: In 1964,
[1:13:03] Bob Dobbs: the Egyptian idea of art,
[1:13:05] Bob Dobbs: the pharaoh programs the whole world,
[1:13:07] Bob Dobbs: and people are doing that.
[1:13:09] Bob Dobbs: But they still think in words and letters and sentences and bureaucratic ID.
[1:13:16] Bob Dobbs: You're nowhere near that.
[1:13:17] Bob Dobbs: That's why you've got to say you've got five bodies.
[1:13:19] Bob Dobbs: So the new language is new nature that has entered a new space where it's extending itself.
[1:13:31] Bob Dobbs: That's a way of pointing out that all your linguistic,
[1:13:34] Bob Dobbs: analog means of knowing are inside something.
[1:13:40] Bob Dobbs: So
[1:13:40] Bob Dobbs: I would then have to say that the tech body is not machines extending themselves.
[1:13:47] Bob Dobbs: It's us extending ourselves still past the
[1:13:51] Bob Dobbs: Sputnik.
[1:13:53] Bob Dobbs: You see?
[1:13:53] Bob Dobbs: So I'm always going to be going in both directions.
[1:13:58] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:14:01] Bob Dobbs: And you can see that's the way the wake is written.
[1:14:03] Bob Dobbs: It's amazing how the language of the wake expresses this dilemma or beauty,
[1:14:12] Bob Dobbs: articulation.
[1:14:13] Bob Dobbs: So now back to the expansion of language.
[1:14:17] Bob Dobbs: So I have the Kroker quadrant is tactility squared.
[1:14:21] Bob Dobbs: That's the Android meme.
[1:14:23] Bob Dobbs: I didn't know about the tech body when I made the chart in 95,
[1:14:27] Bob Dobbs: where I didn't include it yet.
[1:14:30] Bob Dobbs: But I do have what you're talking about,
[1:14:33] Bob Dobbs: tactile leaf.
[1:14:33] Bob Dobbs: We originally were tactile.
[1:14:36] Bob Dobbs: It got squared somehow through social mortar,
[1:14:39] Bob Dobbs: through technologies and new nature.
[1:14:42] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:14:43] Bob Dobbs: It got it fragmented in the literate Gutenberg phase,
[1:14:47] Bob Dobbs: but then it got reintegrated in the Marconi phase.
[1:14:50] Bob Dobbs: And we got extended and expanded and more integrated.
[1:14:57] Bob Dobbs: So it explains why McLuhan went around telling all these divided people,
[1:15:00] Bob Dobbs: you're integrated
[1:15:04] Bob Dobbs: What do you mean I'm integrated?
[1:15:05] Bob Dobbs: I'm worse off than I ever was,
[1:15:06] Bob Dobbs: you know what I mean?
[1:15:07] Bob Dobbs: But technologically,
[1:15:09] Bob Dobbs: the new environment said it integrated you more than you realized.
[1:15:12] Bob Dobbs: And the friendliness of digital technology is the efficient realization of that.
[1:15:20] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[1:15:21] Cameron McEwen: But it's an imperial notion,
[1:15:28] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:15:30] Cameron McEwen: There's a big difference between tactility itself and tactility being put to use.
[1:15:37] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:15:37] Cameron McEwen: As soon as tactility is put to use,
[1:15:40] Cameron McEwen: then it's...
[1:15:41] Cameron McEwen: falsified.
[1:15:43] Bob Dobbs: It's been obsolesced.
[1:15:45] Bob Dobbs: How could you obsolesce tactility?
[1:15:47] Bob Dobbs: That's the newness of our situation.
[1:15:49] Cameron McEwen: Correct.
[1:15:50] Cameron McEwen: Correct.
[1:15:52] Cameron McEwen: So can the tech body be said to be the engineering of tactility?
[1:16:01] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:16:04] Bob Dobbs: But the tactility includes everything.
[1:16:07] Bob Dobbs: All the components that appear separate.
[1:16:09] Bob Dobbs: So it includes
[1:16:11] Bob Dobbs: looking like it's an alien thing that's leaving us behind.
[1:16:15] Bob Dobbs: You have to include that in the perception of what it's made up of.
[1:16:21] Bob Dobbs: So you get,
[1:16:22] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:16:23] Bob Dobbs: Theall's terms,
[1:16:24] Bob Dobbs: synesthesia and coenesthesia.
[1:16:26] Bob Dobbs: Technologies put you more and more in the driver's seat,
[1:16:30] Bob Dobbs: and you're the director,
[1:16:31] Bob Dobbs: the programmer,
[1:16:32] Bob Dobbs: the engineer.
[1:16:33] Cameron McEwen: That's why I called it imperial.
[1:16:36] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:16:36] Bob Dobbs: yes.
[1:16:37] Bob Dobbs: You become a pharaoh.
[1:16:41] Bob Dobbs: We have no,
[1:16:42] Bob Dobbs: and five-year-olds will have that experience.
[1:16:45] Bob Dobbs: So what do you,
[1:16:48] Bob Dobbs: why have society?
[1:16:50] Bob Dobbs: What needs to be given somebody or a child or some immature person to feel confident?
[1:16:59] Bob Dobbs: There's nothing there to make them confident.
[1:17:01] Bob Dobbs: So they run to all kinds of older forms of comfort,
[1:17:04] Bob Dobbs: newer,
[1:17:05] Bob Dobbs: crazier forms of comfort,
[1:17:07] Bob Dobbs: which are just novelty.
[1:17:09] Bob Dobbs: I um
[1:17:10] Bob Dobbs: The main statement for me for the last few years,
[1:17:14] Bob Dobbs: the anecdotal,
[1:17:15] Bob Dobbs: is the mother saying,
[1:17:17] Bob Dobbs: I don't know what to call my kid.
[1:17:19] Bob Dobbs: Every two weeks they change what they want to be.
[1:17:22] Bob Dobbs: Now that's a dilemma parents,
[1:17:24] Bob Dobbs: younger parents have today,
[1:17:25] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:17:26] Cameron McEwen: Definitely.
[1:17:27] Bob Dobbs: Their kids can't even determine what they're going to be for two or three weeks because then the peer pressure of the other multiple kid,
[1:17:35] Bob Dobbs: kid,
[1:17:35] Bob Dobbs: kidness in their schools shifts.
[1:17:39] Bob Dobbs: And so there's a new fad.
[1:17:41] Bob Dobbs: So they're actually responding to hive mind ripples.
[1:17:46] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:17:47] Cameron McEwen: you can say that they're out of control through too much control.
[1:17:51] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:17:52] Bob Dobbs: they have too much imperial control.
[1:17:55] Bob Dobbs: And so you need to bounce it off by anarchy.
[1:17:58] Bob Dobbs: So you use your chemical body to express the anarchy.
[1:18:05] Bob Dobbs: Probably.
[1:18:08] Bob Dobbs: Directors who are in the TV world,
[1:18:10] Bob Dobbs: TV body,
[1:18:11] Bob Dobbs: they're probably quite anarchic in what they,
[1:18:15] Bob Dobbs: going from one TV project to the next.
[1:18:18] Bob Dobbs: Do you follow that?
[1:18:25] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:18:25] Cameron McEwen: sort of.
[1:18:28] Cameron McEwen: I would say that whole world,
[1:18:29] Cameron McEwen: that whole Hollywood world is fundamentally screwed up.
[1:18:37] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:18:41] Cameron McEwen: People make a lot of money and they need to pervert themselves to do it.
[1:18:51] Cameron McEwen: And so that's not a good space to be in.
[1:18:56] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:18:57] Bob Dobbs: they get perverted and they don't know how to get out of it because they don't have the terms,
[1:19:04] Bob Dobbs: the dialogue.
[1:19:05] Bob Dobbs: They haven't talked to us.
[1:19:06] Bob Dobbs: They don't know what they're dealing with.
[1:19:08] Cameron McEwen: Right,
[1:19:09] Cameron McEwen: but they're passing on the perversion collectively.
[1:19:12] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:19:13] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:19:13] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan called them the
[1:19:16] Bob Dobbs: Barnum and Bailey hijacked the media.
[1:19:19] Bob Dobbs: That's Hollywood,
[1:19:20] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:19:21] Bob Dobbs: 100 years ago.
[1:19:24] Bob Dobbs: So we were talking there about the new nature.
[1:19:28] Bob Dobbs: The tech body is new nature,
[1:19:31] Bob Dobbs: but not.
[1:19:32] Bob Dobbs: None of these categories work.
[1:19:35] Bob Dobbs: and you are not going to be able to categorize yourself.
[1:19:39] Bob Dobbs: So no more identity for yourself,
[1:19:41] Bob Dobbs: but you know that that's a situation.
[1:19:43] Bob Dobbs: So you get a new kind of knowing,
[1:19:45] Bob Dobbs: which is an identity,
[1:19:46] Bob Dobbs: not based on analog media,
[1:19:48] Bob Dobbs: that knows why you can't have an identity.
[1:19:52] Bob Dobbs: That's your new certitude,
[1:19:55] Bob Dobbs: your new confidence.
[1:20:00] Bob Dobbs: And so that's why
[1:20:01] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan ends Take Today with the recently achieved
[1:20:03] Bob Dobbs: forms of consciousness.
[1:20:05] Bob Dobbs: He says we have tribal unconscious forms for a hundred years and we had created new forms of consciousness.
[1:20:13] Bob Dobbs: Now I would say that fell apart and the tech body went beyond what McLuhan was thinking.
[1:20:20] Bob Dobbs: It brought in a new kind of unconscious again,
[1:20:25] Bob Dobbs: but it's not your skull unconscious,
[1:20:28] Bob Dobbs: not your biological unconscious.
[1:20:30] Bob Dobbs: It's all the media that were archetypes of unconscious that have become evaporated into a newer invisibility.
[1:20:39] Bob Dobbs: So that's like,
[1:20:40] Bob Dobbs: what's Yeats'
[1:20:41] Bob Dobbs: poem?
[1:20:43] Bob Dobbs: What rough beast is slouching toward us,
[1:20:46] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:20:46] Bob Dobbs: to Jerusalem?
[1:20:47] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:20:47] Cameron McEwen: toward Bethlehem.
[1:20:48] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:20:50] Bob Dobbs: That's what the tech body is,
[1:20:52] Bob Dobbs: a new rough beast,
[1:20:53] Bob Dobbs: a beast where there's no categorical imagery to trap it,
[1:20:59] Bob Dobbs: to encapsulate it.
[1:21:00] Bob Dobbs: And so therefore Hollywood goes crazy making all kinds of images and falling back on formulas more and more,
[1:21:07] Bob Dobbs: or anarchy,
[1:21:08] Bob Dobbs: or the kids don't even bother with Hollywood.
[1:21:11] Bob Dobbs: They don't watch TV,
[1:21:12] Bob Dobbs: so they're engaging in some kind of making process.
[1:21:17] Bob Dobbs: uh with whatever they're texting with i don't even know what they do like tiktok or something look at tiktok what a democratic way for everybody to express themselves right and so it's going to get banned this way yeah
[1:21:32] Bob Dobbs: the the um the something and that'll be good that it gets banned that's a balancing action see so you accept i used to say you know do you believe in abortion or not,
[1:21:43] Bob Dobbs: Bob.
[1:21:44] Bob Dobbs: I said,
[1:21:44] Bob Dobbs: well,
[1:21:45] Bob Dobbs: have the society...
[1:21:46] Bob Dobbs: have no abortion for 10 years.
[1:21:48] Bob Dobbs: Then after that,
[1:21:50] Bob Dobbs: abortion all you want for 10 years.
[1:21:53] Bob Dobbs: And then so 20 years later,
[1:21:54] Bob Dobbs: you see which society looked more balanced.
[1:21:57] Bob Dobbs: May not be able to get a tabulation,
[1:21:59] Bob Dobbs: but at least you'd have a means of knowing.
[1:22:02] Bob Dobbs: So
[1:22:04] Bob Dobbs: I would not advocate one side or the other,
[1:22:07] Bob Dobbs: but let each side dominate for a while.
[1:22:11] Cameron McEwen: But McLuhan would say that that's already happened.
[1:22:14] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[1:22:14] Bob Dobbs: that happens in the election.
[1:22:15] Cameron McEwen: For him.
[1:22:16] Cameron McEwen: History is a laboratory,
[1:22:18] Cameron McEwen: so you can look back and you can see what has happened in societies either way.
[1:22:26] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[1:22:27] Bob Dobbs: and elections,
[1:22:28] Bob Dobbs: for America,
[1:22:29] Bob Dobbs: it's always a two-party system.
[1:22:31] Bob Dobbs: That's the shifting back and forth.
[1:22:35] Cameron McEwen: I wouldn't say that.
[1:22:36] Cameron McEwen: It's the uniparty,
[1:22:38] Cameron McEwen: so that's the absence of tactility.
[1:22:41] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[1:22:42] Bob Dobbs: but that's in response...
[1:22:44] Bob Dobbs: to an environment of total autonomy by billions of people that are not paying attention.
[1:22:50] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:22:50] Bob Dobbs: only 30%
[1:22:51] Bob Dobbs: of the people vote.
[1:22:52] Bob Dobbs: The majority doesn't engage in politics.
[1:22:55] Bob Dobbs: So it's a nuisance that's created as in any environment to the wonderful,
[1:23:02] Bob Dobbs: chaotic beauty people are experiencing.
[1:23:08] Bob Dobbs: I mean,
[1:23:09] Bob Dobbs: there's a lot of peace going on in the suburbs.
[1:23:14] Bob Dobbs: especially among the gated communities.
[1:23:17] Bob Dobbs: Peace,
[1:23:17] Cameron McEwen: P-E-A-C-E?
[1:23:19] Bob Dobbs: Beg your pardon?
[1:23:21] Cameron McEwen: Peace as in war and peace?
[1:23:23] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:23:24] Bob Dobbs: There's a lot of comfort and peace,
[1:23:26] Bob Dobbs: way more than anybody ever had.
[1:23:29] Bob Dobbs: There's so many ways to assuage your discomfort as you,
[1:23:32] Bob Dobbs: quote,
[1:23:32] Bob Dobbs: age.
[1:23:35] Bob Dobbs: So there's a lot of peaceful areas technologically created.
[1:23:41] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:23:41] Bob Dobbs: the tech body is creating that comfort.
[1:23:44] Bob Dobbs: But there's obviously going to be new stresses and pressures and tensions that come out of that that people aren't ready for.
[1:23:51] Bob Dobbs: So they have all kinds of new problems in their retirement that they never even thought about.
[1:23:57] Bob Dobbs: One of them is the world's falling apart around them.
[1:24:00] Bob Dobbs: So so I says
[1:24:02] Bob Dobbs: 75 year olds watch Tucker Carlson and Fox to find out when Social Security is going to be canceled.
[1:24:09] Bob Dobbs: That's that's their their ever again.
[1:24:11] Bob Dobbs: Their apocalypse.
[1:24:14] Cameron McEwen: But notice that it's true that the world is falling apart beyond the gated community,
[1:24:22] Cameron McEwen: but it's also falling apart of those within the community.
[1:24:26] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:24:26] Bob Dobbs: that's what I mean.
[1:24:26] Bob Dobbs: They're the ones obsessed with Fox News,
[1:24:28] Bob Dobbs: with Fox Station,
[1:24:29] Bob Dobbs: you know.
[1:24:30] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:24:31] Cameron McEwen: but I would say they're more obsessed with the local liquor store or with the doctor that's prescribing the drug of the day.
[1:24:42] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:24:42] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[1:24:44] Bob Dobbs: Here's a prediction from iON.
[1:24:46] Bob Dobbs: Something called TRANQ,
[1:24:48] Bob Dobbs: T-R-A-N-Q.
[1:24:52] Bob Dobbs: It's out there,
[1:24:53] Bob Dobbs: I think,
[1:24:53] Bob Dobbs: but it's not really known yet.
[1:24:55] Bob Dobbs: But it will give you the most blissful,
[1:24:57] Bob Dobbs: ecstatic experience.
[1:24:59] Bob Dobbs: But unfortunately,
[1:25:00] Bob Dobbs: it will eat your insides out.
[1:25:01] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:25:04] Cameron McEwen: right.
[1:25:04] Cameron McEwen: Now,
[1:25:04] Cameron McEwen: fentanyl...
[1:25:05] Cameron McEwen: I think that's called PV.
[1:25:07] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:25:08] Bob Dobbs: well,
[1:25:09] Cameron McEwen: tech body.
[1:25:11] Bob Dobbs: But fentanyl,
[1:25:11] Bob Dobbs: the phase before...
[1:25:14] Bob Dobbs: I said,
[1:25:14] Bob Dobbs: did it eat your body out?
[1:25:16] Bob Dobbs: He said,
[1:25:16] Bob Dobbs: no,
[1:25:17] Bob Dobbs: it just suddenly stopped it.
[1:25:20] Bob Dobbs: He just had a heart attack or just the whole body would just stop.
[1:25:24] Bob Dobbs: That was the disservice of the pleasure he got from it.
[1:25:28] Bob Dobbs: So you're getting capsules.
[1:25:31] Bob Dobbs: They keep marketing.
[1:25:32] Bob Dobbs: I mean,
[1:25:33] Bob Dobbs: iON says that the CDC and them plan deadly viruses.
[1:25:37] Bob Dobbs: It's part of the ecology.
[1:25:38] Bob Dobbs: You've got to throw them out there.
[1:25:40] Bob Dobbs: They think that's how they balance things.
[1:25:42] Bob Dobbs: But anyways,
[1:25:45] Bob Dobbs: nobody's going to admit that.
[1:25:46] Bob Dobbs: And you would get arrested if you started claiming it.
[1:25:49] Bob Dobbs: So I'll drop that.
[1:25:50] Bob Dobbs: But the ecology in regular drugs is getting more intense.
[1:25:57] Bob Dobbs: It's getting better,
[1:25:58] Bob Dobbs: but more lethal,
[1:26:01] Bob Dobbs: which is the process of unfolding and then collapse happening faster.
[1:26:09] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.
[1:26:10] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.
[1:26:11] Cameron McEwen: So McLuhan,
[1:26:12] Cameron McEwen: in his review of Hugh Kenner's book on Lewis in 1955,
[1:26:21] Cameron McEwen: where he talks about nihilism.
[1:26:26] Cameron McEwen: For
[1:26:26] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan, the great sort of force in history is the attempt to establish a One,
[1:26:34] Cameron McEwen: with a capital O,
[1:26:36] Cameron McEwen: O-N-E.
[1:26:38] Cameron McEwen: And the reason for that is that people want to get beyond uncertainties,
[1:26:47] Cameron McEwen: difficulties.
[1:26:49] Cameron McEwen: Collapses.
[1:26:51] Cameron McEwen: Collapses,
[1:26:52] Cameron McEwen: all this sort of stuff,
[1:26:53] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:26:53] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:26:55] Cameron McEwen: Of course it's impossible.
[1:26:57] Cameron McEwen: And so,
[1:26:59] Cameron McEwen: they,
[1:27:01] Cameron McEwen: in the face of that impossibility,
[1:27:04] Cameron McEwen: they have to bring in the nuclear armaments of personality building.
[1:27:11] Cameron McEwen: And that's sort of what's always going on.
[1:27:16] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:27:16] Bob Dobbs: the endless making of identity.
[1:27:18] Bob Dobbs: Correct.
[1:27:19] Bob Dobbs: With no identity available.
[1:27:21] Bob Dobbs: Correct.
[1:27:22] Bob Dobbs: I was going to say doing more with less.
[1:27:25] Bob Dobbs: That's the encapsulation.
[1:27:30] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:27:30] Bob Dobbs: And,
[1:27:30] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:27:31] Bob Dobbs: people,
[1:27:32] Bob Dobbs: a large part of the job world is people doing very little.
[1:27:37] Bob Dobbs: Show up,
[1:27:38] Bob Dobbs: they don't even have to show up at work anymore.
[1:27:41] Bob Dobbs: They just have to show up at their computers.
[1:27:43] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:27:43] Bob Dobbs: did you hear the mayor of Washington?
[1:27:46] Bob Dobbs: There's nobody in Washington,
[1:27:48] Bob Dobbs: which is...
[1:27:49] Bob Dobbs: for very esoteric reasons that iON spells out,
[1:27:51] Bob Dobbs: but I won't go into.
[1:27:52] Bob Dobbs: But there are,
[1:27:53] Bob Dobbs: it's a fact,
[1:27:53] Bob Dobbs: there's nobody in Washington.
[1:27:55] Bob Dobbs: So the mayor said the other day,
[1:27:57] Bob Dobbs: she's demanding all the companies that have offices in Washington to bring their people back into Washington so she can get money in the restaurants.
[1:28:06] Bob Dobbs: There's no economy there now.
[1:28:09] Bob Dobbs: So there's an unforeseen problem.
[1:28:11] Bob Dobbs: Who,
[1:28:11] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:28:12] Bob Dobbs: the city is empty,
[1:28:14] Bob Dobbs: and she's screaming to get,
[1:28:16] Bob Dobbs: you get these people back in there,
[1:28:17] Bob Dobbs: and they don't want to come back in.
[1:28:18] Bob Dobbs: They like doing more with less by not even having to go anywhere and do your work on your computer,
[1:28:25] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:28:25] Cameron McEwen: Sure.
[1:28:26] Cameron McEwen: But people,
[1:28:28] Cameron McEwen: that's not an unknown problem.
[1:28:30] Cameron McEwen: People were pointing out that when people were quarantined at home because of COVID,
[1:28:39] Cameron McEwen: that all of the service industries were dying,
[1:28:43] Cameron McEwen: and especially restaurants.
[1:28:45] Cameron McEwen: So that's a...
[1:28:48] Cameron McEwen: sort of a universal pattern.
[1:28:52] Cameron McEwen: And personally,
[1:28:54] Cameron McEwen: I look upon all of that as an attack on small business.
[1:29:04] Cameron McEwen: One of the things that was at stake in the whole
[1:29:10] Cameron McEwen: COVID phenomenon was whether or not the
[1:29:17] Cameron McEwen: powers in existence,
[1:29:21] Cameron McEwen: whoever they are,
[1:29:24] Cameron McEwen: whether they could get rid of their natural opponents,
[1:29:28] Cameron McEwen: which is small business.
[1:29:29] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:29:30] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[1:29:30] Cameron McEwen: They can control the minds of the mass,
[1:29:35] Cameron McEwen: but you can't really control somebody who owns their business and knows what they need to do to keep it in business.
[1:29:45] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:29:46] Cameron McEwen: And so then you had to do an experiment to see if those people could either be gotten rid of or made to conform to some sort of new controlled environment.
[1:29:58] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:29:58] Bob Dobbs: Now there's a shift.
[1:30:00] Bob Dobbs: OK,
[1:30:01] Bob Dobbs: was there COVID?
[1:30:02] Bob Dobbs: What was it?
[1:30:03] Bob Dobbs: It's a new environment.
[1:30:04] Bob Dobbs: We flipped out of that and now a quote backlash is happening.
[1:30:09] Bob Dobbs: And the small business people are going to start fucking suing and another level of chaos is coming.
[1:30:15] Cameron McEwen: That's right.
[1:30:16] Bob Dobbs: As they move into a new environment.
[1:30:20] Cameron McEwen: Correct.
[1:30:20] Bob Dobbs: Past the COVID environment.
[1:30:22] Cameron McEwen: In which we'll find out if there is such a thing as a court system.
[1:30:25] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:30:27] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[1:30:29] Cameron McEwen: Doubtful.
[1:30:30] Bob Dobbs: What was the last word?
[1:30:32] Cameron McEwen: Doubtful.
[1:30:32] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:30:34] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:30:34] Bob Dobbs: iON does a lot of talk about this.
[1:30:36] Bob Dobbs: And,
[1:30:36] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:30:37] Bob Dobbs: not many people understand iON.
[1:30:39] Bob Dobbs: But with my McLuhan background and these processes that we're talking about,
[1:30:44] Bob Dobbs: I understand iON.
[1:30:45] Bob Dobbs: I probably get the most of anybody listening.
[1:30:48] Bob Dobbs: Because I know iON,
[1:30:49] Bob Dobbs: I know how they talk,
[1:30:51] Bob Dobbs: and they're always talking about this.
[1:30:53] Bob Dobbs: There's an incredible new invisible environment coming.
[1:30:56] Bob Dobbs: It's going to be way more chaotic than what we've had the last few years.
[1:31:00] Bob Dobbs: And we,
[1:31:01] Bob Dobbs: you and I,
[1:31:02] Bob Dobbs: say that already here.
[1:31:04] Cameron McEwen: Yep.
[1:31:06] Bob Dobbs: So that's a new...
[1:31:07] Cameron McEwen: How can something be both chaotic and unknown?
[1:31:12] Cameron McEwen: You mean the chaos is the phenomenal manifestation...
[1:31:16] Cameron McEwen: That's the effect.
[1:31:17] Cameron McEwen: Okay,
[1:31:17] Cameron McEwen: yeah,
[1:31:18] Cameron McEwen: right.
[1:31:18] Cameron McEwen: So they don't see the cause,
[1:31:20] Cameron McEwen: they don't see the background,
[1:31:22] Cameron McEwen: they don't see the real environment,
[1:31:25] Cameron McEwen: they see the effect of all these things.
[1:31:28] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:31:28] Bob Dobbs: remember the medium is the message,
[1:31:29] Bob Dobbs: and he finally defined medium as the technologies that society always had,
[1:31:34] Bob Dobbs: or already had.
[1:31:35] Bob Dobbs: At first people thought a medium was,
[1:31:38] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:31:38] Bob Dobbs: in the 50s when he wrote,
[1:31:40] Bob Dobbs: was a new environment,
[1:31:41] Bob Dobbs: new technology.
[1:31:42] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:31:42] Bob Dobbs: then by the
[1:31:43] Bob Dobbs: 70s it was the old structure,
[1:31:45] Bob Dobbs: and you knew...
[1:31:46] Bob Dobbs: Something was afoot that there was a new situation because the medium was falling apart or being shaken up.
[1:31:54] Bob Dobbs: So,
[1:31:54] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:31:55] Bob Dobbs: movies shook things up,
[1:31:56] Bob Dobbs: radio,
[1:31:57] Bob Dobbs: birth control pill,
[1:31:58] Bob Dobbs: all these various things shook society up.
[1:32:01] Bob Dobbs: And,
[1:32:01] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:32:01] Bob Dobbs: it was registered in the chaos of the older media.
[1:32:04] Bob Dobbs: But now that means there will be more,
[1:32:10] Bob Dobbs: more chaos registered in the known medium because.
[1:32:15] Bob Dobbs: there's more powerful new and novelty coming in.
[1:32:18] Bob Dobbs: So that's why the medium,
[1:32:20] Bob Dobbs: the past,
[1:32:20] Bob Dobbs: the society as it is already,
[1:32:23] Bob Dobbs: is getting more chaotic and will get more chaotic because the new environment,
[1:32:28] Bob Dobbs: the invisible,
[1:32:29] Bob Dobbs: is a lot more destructive or powerful.
[1:32:34] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:32:34] Cameron McEwen: so that linear development you were just talking about,
[1:32:39] Cameron McEwen: the McLuhan...
[1:32:41] Cameron McEwen: in 1958,
[1:32:44] Cameron McEwen: 1959,
[1:32:46] Cameron McEwen: was writing back and forth with
[1:32:50] Cameron McEwen: Harry Skornia,
[1:32:51] Cameron McEwen: who was the head of the
[1:32:54] Cameron McEwen: NAEB,
[1:32:55] Cameron McEwen: National Association of Educational Broadcasters.
[1:32:58] Cameron McEwen: And
[1:32:59] Cameron McEwen: Harry was saying,
[1:33:00] Cameron McEwen: well,
[1:33:00] Cameron McEwen: you know,
[1:33:02] Cameron McEwen: there's money available in this new defense app just passed by Congress to study
[1:33:11] Cameron McEwen: new media in education,
[1:33:13] Cameron McEwen: so we should get some of that money.
[1:33:15] Cameron McEwen: And then McLuhan would say,
[1:33:17] Cameron McEwen: well,
[1:33:17] Cameron McEwen: really,
[1:33:18] Cameron McEwen: you can't study new media without studying all media.
[1:33:23] Cameron McEwen: You can't know what a new medium is unless you know what a medium is.
[1:33:28] Cameron McEwen: And then Harry kept saying,
[1:33:30] Cameron McEwen: no,
[1:33:30] Cameron McEwen: no,
[1:33:30] Cameron McEwen: no,
[1:33:31] Cameron McEwen: they'll never buy that.
[1:33:32] Cameron McEwen: Forget that.
[1:33:33] Cameron McEwen: That's too complicated.
[1:33:36] Cameron McEwen: All they want to know about is new media.
[1:33:37] Cameron McEwen: new media.
[1:33:38] Cameron McEwen: And so McLuhan finally said,
[1:33:40] Cameron McEwen: okay,
[1:33:41] Cameron McEwen: I give up what they want or what you want.
[1:33:45] Cameron McEwen: That's impossible,
[1:33:47] Cameron McEwen: but
[1:33:48] Cameron McEwen: I'll just leave that in the background and you can,
[1:33:52] Cameron McEwen: on your application,
[1:33:53] Cameron McEwen: you can just put in new media.
[1:33:55] Cameron McEwen: And that's what they did.
[1:33:57] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:33:57] Bob Dobbs: and see,
[1:33:58] Bob Dobbs: he agreed to go along with the new beginning of the tech body.
[1:34:03] Bob Dobbs: He adapted.
[1:34:03] Bob Dobbs: He gave up.
[1:34:07] Bob Dobbs: Because he knew once he got out there,
[1:34:10] Bob Dobbs: he could then direct it.
[1:34:12] Bob Dobbs: But he had to go along with
[1:34:15] Bob Dobbs: Skornia rules.
[1:34:18] Bob Dobbs: He pretended to give up.
[1:34:21] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:34:21] Cameron McEwen: okay,
[1:34:21] Cameron McEwen: pretended is the key word there.
[1:34:23] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:34:24] Cameron McEwen: So
[1:34:25] Cameron McEwen: I thought before you were saying he did give up.
[1:34:28] Bob Dobbs: No.
[1:34:29] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:34:29] Cameron McEwen: so
[1:34:31] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan had this idea that he had to.
[1:34:36] Cameron McEwen: kind of present the workings of media plural in the background when he was talking about the new media singular.
[1:34:50] Cameron McEwen: And he tried that for a while,
[1:34:53] Cameron McEwen: but it didn't really work.
[1:34:55] Cameron McEwen: So,
[1:34:57] Cameron McEwen: you know,
[1:34:57] Cameron McEwen: that not only did it not work,
[1:35:00] Cameron McEwen: in trying to make it work,
[1:35:02] Cameron McEwen: he had his first big stroke and damn near killed himself.
[1:35:06] Cameron McEwen: Great.
[1:35:08] Bob Dobbs: Skornia almost killed him.
[1:35:10] Bob Dobbs: Skornia was a clever CIA guy.
[1:35:12] Bob Dobbs: He knew how to assassinate McLuhan.
[1:35:16] Cameron McEwen: But this is 1960,
[1:35:18] Cameron McEwen: so he's got 20 years to live.
[1:35:20] Cameron McEwen: And in that 20 years,
[1:35:22] Cameron McEwen: he tries everything possible.
[1:35:26] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:35:26] Cameron McEwen: the first thing he does,
[1:35:27] Bob Dobbs: he gets into dialogue with
[1:35:30] Bob Dobbs: Watson over cliche archetype.
[1:35:32] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:35:33] Cameron McEwen: yeah,
[1:35:34] Cameron McEwen: but that broke down completely.
[1:35:37] Bob Dobbs: And he had another disease.
[1:35:38] Bob Dobbs: He got another sickness.
[1:35:40] Bob Dobbs: in that at the end in the late
[1:35:42] Cameron McEwen: 60s longest brain surgery yeah well and all the time he was having blackouts from the tumor that was going in his brain and at the same time his mother who would finally
[1:36:00] Cameron McEwen: move back to toronto to to be near marshall she was having many strokes
[1:36:08] Cameron McEwen: and eventually died of the same thing that Marshall would die of in 1980.
[1:36:14] Cameron McEwen: So he was going through his own health problems and seeing them as fatal in his mother.
[1:36:21] Cameron McEwen: I think she died in 63.
[1:36:24] Bob Dobbs: And he saw what in his mother?
[1:36:28] Cameron McEwen: He saw the fatality of the problems he was going through in his mother.
[1:36:35] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:36:35] Bob Dobbs: and well,
[1:36:36] Bob Dobbs: it all began with his mother.
[1:36:40] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:36:40] Bob Dobbs: When he was a kid,
[1:36:41] Bob Dobbs: living with her.
[1:36:43] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:36:49] Bob Dobbs: So do you see how the complementarity in this of the linearity and the simultaneous?
[1:36:55] Bob Dobbs: So you and I,
[1:36:58] Bob Dobbs: as figures of the situation,
[1:37:00] Bob Dobbs: we are complementary and incommensurable.
[1:37:02] Bob Dobbs: And that's probably true with any two people.
[1:37:06] Cameron McEwen: Yes.
[1:37:07] Cameron McEwen: It's even true.
[1:37:08] Cameron McEwen: in the individual.
[1:37:09] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:37:10] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:37:10] Bob Dobbs: your divided self.
[1:37:12] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:37:13] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:37:13] Cameron McEwen: the consciousness and unconsciousness,
[1:37:15] Cameron McEwen: they can never be made commensurable.
[1:37:19] Cameron McEwen: Those are eternally disparate.
[1:37:22] Bob Dobbs: And they're always shifting and creating new issues for yourself.
[1:37:25] Bob Dobbs: So you can be confident of not being undermined,
[1:37:34] Bob Dobbs: but you will be undermined.
[1:37:37] Bob Dobbs: remember Barry Nevitt prepare very carefully and then do the opposite yeah that was the line he had something like prepare very carefully to do something but get ready to do the opposite so uh
[1:37:54] Bob Dobbs: i electric right there yeah and so i i'm very confident about my situation but i know that i ain't relying on that that's right so
[1:38:06] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[1:38:07] Cameron McEwen: earlier we were talking about a certain strength that
[1:38:11] Cameron McEwen: Marshall had,
[1:38:12] Cameron McEwen: even though the family was dysfunctional.
[1:38:15] Cameron McEwen: And really what the world needs is that kind of strength.
[1:38:19] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:38:20] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[1:38:20] Cameron McEwen: It's,
[1:38:21] Cameron McEwen: Pound called it the wobbling pivot,
[1:38:23] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:38:24] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:38:25] Cameron McEwen: It's the pivot,
[1:38:27] Cameron McEwen: which seems to be fixed in place,
[1:38:29] Cameron McEwen: but it's fixed in place only through its wobbling.
[1:38:34] Bob Dobbs: Yep.
[1:38:34] Cameron McEwen: It's like a gyroscope.
[1:38:36] Bob Dobbs: How about this image?
[1:38:38] Bob Dobbs: You got like four balls,
[1:38:39] Bob Dobbs: you're holding four balls,
[1:38:42] Bob Dobbs: but you can't hold them all at the same time.
[1:38:43] Bob Dobbs: So one's always falling out of your hands,
[1:38:47] Bob Dobbs: arms and bracing the balls.
[1:38:48] Bob Dobbs: There's always one falling out.
[1:38:51] Bob Dobbs: I think I saw that image in the annotations of Finnegans Wake.
[1:38:54] Bob Dobbs: Somebody brought that up.
[1:38:56] Bob Dobbs: But it's like dealing with reality or with Finnegans Wake is you can't hold all the balls constantly.
[1:39:05] Bob Dobbs: There's always one that's slipped out.
[1:39:10] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:39:10] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[1:39:10] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[1:39:11] Bob Dobbs: So that's what your conscious,
[1:39:12] Bob Dobbs: your tactility is doing that.
[1:39:14] Bob Dobbs: There's always something slipping out.
[1:39:15] Bob Dobbs: It has to slip out and circle around you and create a new effect.
[1:39:20] Bob Dobbs: That's the both and,
[1:39:21] Bob Dobbs: the and part.
[1:39:24] Bob Dobbs: So the more you understand that,
[1:39:26] Bob Dobbs: and then the more you aesthetically,
[1:39:29] Bob Dobbs: or as with an artist's eye,
[1:39:31] Bob Dobbs: see it happening in your technology,
[1:39:33] Bob Dobbs: you're really on top of it.
[1:39:36] Bob Dobbs: with that.
[1:39:37] Bob Dobbs: You have a new kind of comprehensive awareness.
[1:39:40] Bob Dobbs: And McLuhan was talking about a new kind of comprehensive awareness that none of the mystical schools or traditions,
[1:39:46] Bob Dobbs: arts and sciences met.
[1:39:48] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[1:39:49] Cameron McEwen: It was New Science.
[1:39:50] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:39:51] Bob Dobbs: it was a New Science.
[1:39:52] Bob Dobbs: And that's where
[1:39:53] Bob Dobbs: Don Theall said the historical fantasy of the Illuminati,
[1:39:58] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:39:58] Bob Dobbs: was way back in Babylon,
[1:40:01] Bob Dobbs: and then in Greece,
[1:40:02] Bob Dobbs: then Rome,
[1:40:03] Bob Dobbs: then...
[1:40:04] Bob Dobbs: Venice maybe,
[1:40:05] Bob Dobbs: and then England,
[1:40:07] Bob Dobbs: then America,
[1:40:07] Bob Dobbs: and then he said,
[1:40:08] Bob Dobbs: then Toronto.
[1:40:10] Bob Dobbs: when he was there in the 50s with
[1:40:11] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan and Carpenter,
[1:40:13] Bob Dobbs: they knew they were the new quote Illuminati.
[1:40:15] Bob Dobbs: They had broken through to the new wisdom that you're supposed to teach.
[1:40:24] Bob Dobbs: You know what I'm saying?
[1:40:25] Bob Dobbs: He says that.
[1:40:26] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:40:26] Cameron McEwen: yeah,
[1:40:27] Cameron McEwen: I see it,
[1:40:28] Cameron McEwen: but I don't believe that Carpenter or McLuhan took that kind of notion very seriously.
[1:40:34] Bob Dobbs: No,
[1:40:34] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[1:40:35] Bob Dobbs: that's what I said,
[1:40:35] Bob Dobbs: it's a fantasy.
[1:40:36] Bob Dobbs: But the idea...
[1:40:37] Bob Dobbs: that there was some place that was where it was at,
[1:40:39] Bob Dobbs: and they knew more than anybody else that McLuhan got that for a while.
[1:40:47] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[1:40:47] Cameron McEwen: I think so.
[1:40:48] Bob Dobbs: And Don witnessed it,
[1:40:49] Bob Dobbs: and he eventually realized that he...
[1:40:53] Cameron McEwen: At some point,
[1:40:54] Cameron McEwen: somebody will write a very interesting book on the influence that
[1:41:02] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan and the Explorations
[1:41:04] Cameron McEwen: Journal had.
[1:41:07] Cameron McEwen: on the intellectuals at the time.
[1:41:11] Cameron McEwen: I think eventually it will be found that some of the ideas that are supposedly very profound in people like Derrida actually had their birth with McLuhan.
[1:41:22] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:41:22] Bob Dobbs: Rene Thom.
[1:41:23] Bob Dobbs: Doesn't he do catastrophe theory?
[1:41:27] Bob Dobbs: Zingrone met Rene Thom,
[1:41:30] Bob Dobbs: T-H-O-M,
[1:41:30] Bob Dobbs: I think.
[1:41:32] Bob Dobbs: And he said he became famous in the 80s with catastrophe theory or something.
[1:41:36] Bob Dobbs: with some new Fed.
[1:41:38] Bob Dobbs: He said he got it from McLuhan.
[1:41:40] Bob Dobbs: Told Frank that.
[1:41:41] Bob Dobbs: And a very good book is
[1:41:45] Bob Dobbs: Imaginary Futures,
[1:41:46] Bob Dobbs: maybe?
[1:41:46] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:41:46] Bob Dobbs: Richard Barbrook,
[1:41:47] Bob Dobbs: this leftist
[1:41:49] Bob Dobbs: Marxist professor in England.
[1:41:51] Bob Dobbs: He got access to East German intelligence because he was a leftist.
[1:41:55] Bob Dobbs: And when Russia collapsed,
[1:41:58] Bob Dobbs: Soviet Union,
[1:41:59] Bob Dobbs: he had connections with the left in East Germany.
[1:42:01] Bob Dobbs: So they let him into the archives.
[1:42:03] Bob Dobbs: And he found all these late 50s guys.
[1:42:06] Bob Dobbs: discussing McLuhan in the pre-KGB.
[1:42:10] Bob Dobbs: Definitely read that book.
[1:42:11] Bob Dobbs: I mean,
[1:42:12] Bob Dobbs: it is exactly what you were just saying.
[1:42:13] Bob Dobbs: As you were laying this out,
[1:42:15] Bob Dobbs: I said,
[1:42:15] Bob Dobbs: oh,
[1:42:15] Bob Dobbs: that's Richard's book.
[1:42:16] Bob Dobbs: He shows how
[1:42:18] Bob Dobbs: Russian pre-KGB,
[1:42:20] Bob Dobbs: whatever they were called,
[1:42:22] Bob Dobbs: were thinking about McLuhan,
[1:42:24] Bob Dobbs: trying to figure it out,
[1:42:25] Bob Dobbs: and then
[1:42:26] Bob Dobbs: Zbigniew Brzezinski did it with the CIA.
[1:42:30] Bob Dobbs: It shows the influence politically of McLuhan's incredible.
[1:42:35] Bob Dobbs: In other words,
[1:42:36] Bob Dobbs: They couldn't avoid McLuhan.
[1:42:38] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:42:39] Cameron McEwen: So I think,
[1:42:40] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[1:42:41] Cameron McEwen: my hope is that what we're doing is keeping something alive,
[1:42:47] Cameron McEwen: putting it out there into the ether,
[1:42:51] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:42:52] Cameron McEwen: And so with McLuhan,
[1:42:54] Cameron McEwen: I think,
[1:42:55] Cameron McEwen: I sort of think that's what he was doing.
[1:42:57] Cameron McEwen: I don't think that these people,
[1:43:01] Cameron McEwen: you know,
[1:43:01] Cameron McEwen: picked up the Gutenberg Galaxy and parsed.
[1:43:04] Cameron McEwen: it very closely and said,
[1:43:06] Cameron McEwen: oh,
[1:43:06] Cameron McEwen: you know,
[1:43:08] Cameron McEwen: how that applies to what's going on in the Soviet Union.
[1:43:12] Cameron McEwen: Instead,
[1:43:13] Cameron McEwen: I think what was going on is that
[1:43:15] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan and Carpenter and McLuhan and other people that he was dialoguing with were keeping these ideas alive and complicating these ideas in a way that had
[1:43:32] Cameron McEwen: influence um
[1:43:34] Cameron McEwen: beyond any sort of written work or something.
[1:43:38] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:43:38] Bob Dobbs: I think people are integrated.
[1:43:39] Bob Dobbs: I think there is an ESP among humans,
[1:43:42] Bob Dobbs: and that's what you're affecting.
[1:43:44] Bob Dobbs: And there's always,
[1:43:45] Bob Dobbs: I asked the Evergreens this,
[1:43:46] Bob Dobbs: I said there's always someone in a culture or society that's a bit ahead,
[1:43:51] Bob Dobbs: and their mind is the framework that everybody's responding to,
[1:43:56] Bob Dobbs: unconsciously.
[1:43:58] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[1:43:58] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:43:59] Cameron McEwen: no,
[1:43:59] Cameron McEwen: I think that's right.
[1:44:00] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:44:01] Bob Dobbs: you can call it genius.
[1:44:02] Bob Dobbs: you
[1:44:04] Bob Dobbs: And so McLuhan says the artist knows what to save from the obsolete past,
[1:44:08] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:44:09] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:44:10] Bob Dobbs: So McLuhan knew what to save from the men of 1914.
[1:44:14] Bob Dobbs: We know what to save from the McLuhan era.
[1:44:19] Cameron McEwen: I hope so.
[1:44:20] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:44:20] Bob Dobbs: so we're redoing it as an art form.
[1:44:24] Bob Dobbs: And I'm doing a lot of that with iON.
[1:44:28] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:44:28] Bob Dobbs: iON to me is a new technology.
[1:44:31] Bob Dobbs: And it's the first technology to describe what it's doing to us.
[1:44:35] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:44:36] Cameron McEwen: the self-consciousness of technology.
[1:44:39] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:44:39] Bob Dobbs: the first self-conscious technology.
[1:44:42] Bob Dobbs: So it's a lot of fun with it for me because...
[1:44:49] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:44:49] Cameron McEwen: Why do you laugh?
[1:44:50] Cameron McEwen: I've heard you laughing.
[1:44:51] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[1:44:55] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[1:44:55] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:44:55] Bob Dobbs: like this guy regularly says,
[1:44:57] Bob Dobbs: Bob,
[1:44:58] Bob Dobbs: I don't think anybody has laughed as much as you have since...
[1:45:00] Bob Dobbs: once you've met iON,
[1:45:02] Bob Dobbs: you've laughed the most of anybody.
[1:45:05] Bob Dobbs: Because iON is hilarious.
[1:45:11] Bob Dobbs: But I can see the McLuhan,
[1:45:13] Bob Dobbs: see,
[1:45:14] Bob Dobbs: the lucky ones,
[1:45:15] Bob Dobbs: they tap into the best of the previous.
[1:45:18] Bob Dobbs: Like he met Lewis and studied Joyce.
[1:45:24] Bob Dobbs: He studied the right people.
[1:45:26] Bob Dobbs: And he had the grace to figure out how to make it new.
[1:45:31] Bob Dobbs: What was I going to say about that?
[1:45:33] Bob Dobbs: So I feel lucky that what I study,
[1:45:35] Bob Dobbs: what I met,
[1:45:36] Bob Dobbs: like McLuhan.
[1:45:37] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:45:38] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.
[1:45:39] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.
[1:45:40] Bob Dobbs: I knew that was the guy to focus on.
[1:45:43] Cameron McEwen: Before I forget,
[1:45:44] Cameron McEwen: I have a question relating to what we were talking about a little bit earlier.
[1:45:49] Cameron McEwen: And that is that
[1:45:51] Cameron McEwen: I was saying that you're on the air as a kind of collective Freud.
[1:45:56] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:45:57] Cameron McEwen: Who's,
[1:45:58] Cameron McEwen: you know,
[1:46:00] Cameron McEwen: not only addressing all of these patients out there,
[1:46:05] Cameron McEwen: but also going over in your own mind.
[1:46:10] Cameron McEwen: you know,
[1:46:11] Cameron McEwen: sort of what is the theory,
[1:46:14] Cameron McEwen: like Freud's trying to come up with what's the basis of psychoanalysis,
[1:46:19] Cameron McEwen: and how should it work,
[1:46:21] Cameron McEwen: and all this,
[1:46:21] Cameron McEwen: and that's always evolving as he talks with the patients,
[1:46:26] Cameron McEwen: and tries to cure them in various ways.
[1:46:30] Cameron McEwen: No,
[1:46:30] Bob Dobbs: exactly right,
[1:46:31] Bob Dobbs: and when iON first showed up,
[1:46:33] Bob Dobbs: and then we started having the radio show,
[1:46:34] Bob Dobbs: and then people were calling in,
[1:46:35] Bob Dobbs: all involved,
[1:46:36] Bob Dobbs: talking to iON,
[1:46:37] Bob Dobbs: I used to tell people 12 years ago,
[1:46:39] Bob Dobbs: I'm the Freud of the new situation.
[1:46:42] Cameron McEwen: There you go.
[1:46:43] Cameron McEwen: There you go.
[1:46:44] Cameron McEwen: So my question is,
[1:46:47] Cameron McEwen: are there people out there who can be regarded as successful cases?
[1:46:54] Cameron McEwen: Do you feel like you have been able to effect cures for at least some particular people out there?
[1:47:06] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:47:06] Bob Dobbs: it's my foster.
[1:47:07] Bob Dobbs: my foster
[1:47:09] Bob Dobbs: A girl back in 1990 went to a psychic and the psychic said,
[1:47:15] Bob Dobbs: you're involved with two people.
[1:47:17] Bob Dobbs: One is a healer of the body and the other is a healer of the mind.
[1:47:21] Bob Dobbs: So then Shannon told us this.
[1:47:22] Bob Dobbs: I said,
[1:47:22] Bob Dobbs: well,
[1:47:23] Bob Dobbs: that's me.
[1:47:23] Bob Dobbs: I'm the healer of the mind.
[1:47:24] Bob Dobbs: Carol's the healer of the body.
[1:47:25] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:47:25] Bob Dobbs: Carol has done incredible miracles with her products,
[1:47:28] Bob Dobbs: way beyond anybody.
[1:47:29] Bob Dobbs: So she's the top doctor in the planet.
[1:47:31] Bob Dobbs: So she's doing,
[1:47:32] Bob Dobbs: quote,
[1:47:32] Bob Dobbs: the physical.
[1:47:33] Bob Dobbs: I do it metaphysically mental.
[1:47:35] Bob Dobbs: And it led.
[1:47:37] Bob Dobbs: to us being given five nuclear reactors,
[1:47:40] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:47:41] Bob Dobbs: that there are people getting what we're saying and supporting us.
[1:47:47] Bob Dobbs: We don't know who gave us the reactors.
[1:47:51] Bob Dobbs: J.W.
[1:47:52] Bob Dobbs: was told to go to this reactor and he shows up and he's ready to show his ID and the guy just the guy at the front door of the nuclear reactor said,
[1:48:02] Bob Dobbs: no,
[1:48:02] Bob Dobbs: no,
[1:48:02] Bob Dobbs: go ahead.
[1:48:02] Bob Dobbs: They already knew who he was.
[1:48:05] Bob Dobbs: And then he went in there.
[1:48:07] Bob Dobbs: And these guys were ready to work,
[1:48:08] Bob Dobbs: and so he presented our technology to them.
[1:48:12] Bob Dobbs: And they were ready to learn from him.
[1:48:15] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:48:15] Bob Dobbs: that's pretty strange.
[1:48:17] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:48:17] Bob Dobbs: I wouldn't be surprised if they're aliens disguised as humans because of all this other stuff going.
[1:48:24] Bob Dobbs: Did you see that
[1:48:25] Bob Dobbs: I've gotten a lot of emails the last week from people?
[1:48:28] Bob Dobbs: Did you see the story of the spiral over Maui?
[1:48:33] Cameron McEwen: No,
[1:48:33] Cameron McEwen: sorry.
[1:48:34] Bob Dobbs: I'll send it to you.
[1:48:35] Cameron McEwen: I haven't been looking at the website at all lately,
[1:48:38] Cameron McEwen: so maybe I should take a gander.
[1:48:39] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:48:39] Bob Dobbs: look at it today.
[1:48:40] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:48:41] Bob Dobbs: they have a report on it right,
[1:48:42] Bob Dobbs: I think,
[1:48:43] Bob Dobbs: on page one.
[1:48:45] Bob Dobbs: The Japanese people who first saw it.
[1:48:48] Bob Dobbs: But the night,
[1:48:50] Bob Dobbs: so it was January
[1:48:51] Bob Dobbs: 18th. It was
[1:48:53] Bob Dobbs: Tuesday the 17th going into the
[1:48:55] Bob Dobbs: 18th. And I was out there doing my ritual in the middle of the night that I'm supposed to do every night.
[1:49:03] Bob Dobbs: I looked up at the sky and I saw a cluster of stars,
[1:49:07] Bob Dobbs: an actual odd cluster,
[1:49:09] Bob Dobbs: not just spread out like normal stars.
[1:49:11] Bob Dobbs: It was a ball of lights.
[1:49:14] Bob Dobbs: And
[1:49:16] Bob Dobbs: I noted that.
[1:49:17] Bob Dobbs: So I asked iON later,
[1:49:18] Bob Dobbs: what was that?
[1:49:19] Bob Dobbs: And he said that there were a whole armada of UFOs that each one was at least 26 miles across.
[1:49:29] Bob Dobbs: They're fucking huge.
[1:49:30] Bob Dobbs: Huge.
[1:49:31] Bob Dobbs: And...
[1:49:32] Bob Dobbs: They were contemplating whether to do the invasion that they're going to do,
[1:49:36] Bob Dobbs: that
[1:49:37] Bob Dobbs: I'm preparing for.
[1:49:38] Bob Dobbs: And they decided not to.
[1:49:41] Bob Dobbs: So then,
[1:49:42] Bob Dobbs: a week and a half later,
[1:49:43] Bob Dobbs: I started seeing this spiral thing got released.
[1:49:47] Bob Dobbs: And I looked at it and I said,
[1:49:48] Bob Dobbs: wait a minute,
[1:49:49] Bob Dobbs: they're saying that's the 18th.
[1:49:50] Bob Dobbs: I went back and looked at my notes.
[1:49:51] Bob Dobbs: That's the night that I saw the cluster.
[1:49:54] Bob Dobbs: I didn't see a spiral,
[1:49:55] Bob Dobbs: but I saw the cluster,
[1:49:57] Bob Dobbs: and it was that phenomenon.
[1:49:59] Bob Dobbs: I saw it on my own,
[1:50:01] Bob Dobbs: looking out over the...
[1:50:02] Bob Dobbs: the dark sky.
[1:50:05] Bob Dobbs: If you want to catch up what I'm dealing with,
[1:50:08] Bob Dobbs: go to iON and Bob and look at that story.
[1:50:10] Bob Dobbs: But
[1:50:12] Bob Dobbs: I get emails from five or seven people,
[1:50:14] Bob Dobbs: different people around the world,
[1:50:15] Bob Dobbs: saying,
[1:50:16] Bob Dobbs: Bob,
[1:50:16] Bob Dobbs: what the fuck are you doing?
[1:50:19] Bob Dobbs: What the fuck's going on?
[1:50:21] Bob Dobbs: I don't know what they know about me.
[1:50:22] Bob Dobbs: Some of them don't know anything about iON.
[1:50:24] Bob Dobbs: But they know I'm at Maui.
[1:50:26] Bob Dobbs: So they identified me as somehow involved with the spiral.
[1:50:31] Bob Dobbs: And little do they know they're right.
[1:50:36] Bob Dobbs: So,
[1:50:37] Bob Dobbs: but no,
[1:50:37] Bob Dobbs: this Freud thing is really,
[1:50:39] Bob Dobbs: because I was getting people,
[1:50:40] Bob Dobbs: we did private sessions a lot.
[1:50:43] Bob Dobbs: So I would hear,
[1:50:43] Bob Dobbs: I'd be the only one who would hear what people would talk to iON about.
[1:50:47] Bob Dobbs: People had all kinds of weird anomalies that they never had explained.
[1:50:53] Bob Dobbs: So I heard this whole new realm of novelty that people were experiencing,
[1:50:59] Bob Dobbs: which is what Freud got.
[1:51:01] Bob Dobbs: 120 years ago about sexual issues,
[1:51:04] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:51:05] Bob Dobbs: That people were getting new weirdness and impressions and sensitivities that he didn't understand.
[1:51:11] Bob Dobbs: And he would walk them through it and winging it all the time he was doing it,
[1:51:15] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:51:16] Bob Dobbs: Just one step ahead of them.
[1:51:19] Bob Dobbs: And
[1:51:19] Bob Dobbs: I've been doing that exactly the last 10 years with people.
[1:51:25] Bob Dobbs: So what you're describing is exactly I don't know,
[1:51:27] Bob Dobbs: where did you,
[1:51:28] Bob Dobbs: what did you hear me?
[1:51:29] Bob Dobbs: Did you hear one of my shows or something?
[1:51:32] Cameron McEwen: No,
[1:51:35] Cameron McEwen: I've never listened to one of your shows.
[1:51:37] Bob Dobbs: But you heard me laugh a lot.
[1:51:40] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:51:41] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.
[1:51:42] Bob Dobbs: Where did you hear me laughing?
[1:51:44] Cameron McEwen: Oh,
[1:51:46] Cameron McEwen: well,
[1:51:46] Cameron McEwen: of course,
[1:51:47] Cameron McEwen: we do a certain amount of laughing ourselves.
[1:51:49] Cameron McEwen: But
[1:51:50] Cameron McEwen: I've heard on the website sometimes I've seen segments of you talking with iON or something.
[1:51:58] Cameron McEwen: You're doing a lot of laughing.
[1:52:00] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:52:00] Bob Dobbs: so you would click on there,
[1:52:02] Bob Dobbs: and you'd hear that.
[1:52:04] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:52:04] Bob Dobbs: that's hearing an excerpt.
[1:52:05] Bob Dobbs: But no,
[1:52:06] Bob Dobbs: I actually thought of myself as New Freud.
[1:52:08] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:52:08] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan said we need,
[1:52:10] Bob Dobbs: we're in a situation,
[1:52:11] Bob Dobbs: I think he said,
[1:52:12] Bob Dobbs: complex clairvoyance,
[1:52:14] Bob Dobbs: but we need a collective psychoanalysis.
[1:52:17] Bob Dobbs: Do you remember that?
[1:52:18] Bob Dobbs: Collective something?
[1:52:21] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:52:22] Cameron McEwen: I don't remember a particular passage,
[1:52:24] Cameron McEwen: but I know that he said stuff like that,
[1:52:26] Cameron McEwen: sure.
[1:52:27] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[1:52:27] Bob Dobbs: see what he was saying is we now could have an agreed upon knowledge base based on our senses that everybody has and the mundane effects of new technology,
[1:52:40] Bob Dobbs: the knowable effects.
[1:52:41] Bob Dobbs: He had a vocabulary,
[1:52:43] Bob Dobbs: a definition,
[1:52:45] Bob Dobbs: then we'd all agree that's the terms we use to understand what's going on.
[1:52:50] Bob Dobbs: So he created...
[1:52:51] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[1:52:51] Cameron McEwen: that would be the New Science.
[1:52:52] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[1:52:53] Bob Dobbs: He created a new unified language for people that everybody was looking for for 2,000 years.
[1:52:58] Bob Dobbs: He actually came up with it.
[1:52:59] Bob Dobbs: And so he said we need a collective corporate psychiatry,
[1:53:03] Bob Dobbs: he called it.
[1:53:06] Bob Dobbs: And that's what I feel I'm doing.
[1:53:07] Bob Dobbs: So I agree that,
[1:53:09] Bob Dobbs: like I tell people,
[1:53:12] Bob Dobbs: iON says all these things about me,
[1:53:13] Bob Dobbs: and I said,
[1:53:14] Bob Dobbs: that's not me,
[1:53:15] Bob Dobbs: the body,
[1:53:17] Bob Dobbs: the private person.
[1:53:18] Bob Dobbs: That is what my mind has got to and what it can say.
[1:53:22] Bob Dobbs: say,
[1:53:23] Bob Dobbs: and that's what is correct,
[1:53:26] Bob Dobbs: what my mind says.
[1:53:27] Bob Dobbs: It's not me.
[1:53:30] Bob Dobbs: I'm actually a new kind of poetry.
[1:53:34] Cameron McEwen: Sure.
[1:53:34] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:53:34] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan said,
[1:53:35] Cameron McEwen: you know,
[1:53:36] Cameron McEwen: just as he said,
[1:53:38] Cameron McEwen: all ordinary consciousness is art,
[1:53:42] Cameron McEwen: he also said that everybody is now beyond themselves,
[1:53:47] Cameron McEwen: whether it's on the telephone or on TV or whatever.
[1:53:52] Cameron McEwen: And so you're talking about being beyond yourself.
[1:53:55] Cameron McEwen: But when you're beyond yourself like this,
[1:53:58] Cameron McEwen: you're actually expressing what everybody is.
[1:54:01] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[1:54:02] Bob Dobbs: And so when I'm saying what I just said the last couple minutes about myself,
[1:54:05] Bob Dobbs: it might sound like bragging,
[1:54:06] Bob Dobbs: but I'm sincerely not bragging.
[1:54:09] Bob Dobbs: I'm talking technically.
[1:54:10] Bob Dobbs: And
[1:54:12] Bob Dobbs: I'm able to say it to you because you already said what I was doing,
[1:54:15] Bob Dobbs: and you're right,
[1:54:16] Bob Dobbs: and I'm telling you what I already knew to myself and what I say to people.
[1:54:22] Bob Dobbs: I was saying what you said,
[1:54:23] Bob Dobbs: for years.
[1:54:25] Cameron McEwen: Yep,
[1:54:25] Cameron McEwen: yep.
[1:54:27] Cameron McEwen: But notice one thing that you just said about McLuhan is a difficulty.
[1:54:33] Cameron McEwen: I see we're getting close to six.
[1:54:35] Cameron McEwen: So this difficulty we can maybe discuss in future programs.
[1:54:41] Cameron McEwen: But
[1:54:41] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan often said that the New Science would be based on configurations of the senses.
[1:54:49] Cameron McEwen: But the whole problem is...
[1:54:51] Cameron McEwen: that he wasn't using the word sense,
[1:54:56] Cameron McEwen: like the visual or the audio,
[1:54:59] Cameron McEwen: or tactile,
[1:55:01] Cameron McEwen: in the way that people usually understand them.
[1:55:05] Cameron McEwen: And so the New Science was going to be based on a revolution in our understanding after which we would understand what configuration of the senses is.
[1:55:18] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[1:55:18] Bob Dobbs: because senses can mean,
[1:55:20] Bob Dobbs: what's the meaning,
[1:55:22] Bob Dobbs: the semantic meaning?
[1:55:23] Cameron McEwen: Correct.
[1:55:23] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:55:24] Cameron McEwen: Correct.
[1:55:25] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:55:25] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[1:55:26] Cameron McEwen: Or it can mean the unconscious sense.
[1:55:28] Cameron McEwen: There's a million and one different senses.
[1:55:32] Cameron McEwen: But notice that,
[1:55:33] Cameron McEwen: for example,
[1:55:34] Cameron McEwen: the...
[1:55:35] Cameron McEwen: media ecology as its practice.
[1:55:37] Cameron McEwen: It believes that in the world there are identifiable things,
[1:55:47] Cameron McEwen: identifiable senses,
[1:55:48] Cameron McEwen: identifiable media,
[1:55:50] Cameron McEwen: identifiable effects.
[1:55:52] Cameron McEwen: But that's exactly what McLuhan was not talking about.
[1:55:56] Cameron McEwen: Because when the medium is the message,
[1:55:59] Cameron McEwen: it's only when you have the medium that the message makes sense.
[1:56:04] Bob Dobbs: And the medium is the past,
[1:56:06] Bob Dobbs: or what the society has already established.
[1:56:09] Bob Dobbs: At least that's the last stage of the meaning of medium.
[1:56:13] Bob Dobbs: So there's configurations of medium.
[1:56:17] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.
[1:56:18] Cameron McEwen: As you often say,
[1:56:20] Cameron McEwen: the media environment is a theater of the different media themselves interacting.
[1:56:28] Bob Dobbs: And an implosion of a node,
[1:56:31] Bob Dobbs: which is the membrane part of it.
[1:56:34] Bob Dobbs: That's the one and four.
[1:56:38] Bob Dobbs: Literacy is two-two,
[1:56:40] Bob Dobbs: you know.
[1:56:40] Bob Dobbs: Domestic analogical proportionality,
[1:56:42] Bob Dobbs: 22-2-2.
[1:56:45] Bob Dobbs: 1-4 is the Global Membrane.
[1:56:47] Bob Dobbs: Everybody's in the same resonant node and obliterated in one consciousness.
[1:56:51] Bob Dobbs: But then you create a doubleness or an service environment to it through paranoia,
[1:56:57] Bob Dobbs: schizophrenia,
[1:56:58] Bob Dobbs: hysteria,
[1:56:59] Bob Dobbs: panic,
[1:57:00] Bob Dobbs: and ecstasy.
[1:57:02] Bob Dobbs: That's the 4.
[1:57:03] Bob Dobbs: And so there's a tactile relationship between the 1 and the 4.
[1:57:07] Bob Dobbs: And the 4 is a 10-tread.
[1:57:10] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:57:10] Cameron McEwen: but remember that of the four,
[1:57:12] Cameron McEwen: there's always one ball falling out.
[1:57:15] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:57:15] Bob Dobbs: that's the fifth quadrant.
[1:57:17] Bob Dobbs: So I'm always saying,
[1:57:18] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:57:18] Bob Dobbs: my chart has five parts,
[1:57:21] Bob Dobbs: but I call them quadrants.
[1:57:23] Bob Dobbs: See,
[1:57:23] Bob Dobbs: so there's an extra part that's not.
[1:57:26] Bob Dobbs: It's the fifth thing.
[1:57:28] Bob Dobbs: There are five things.
[1:57:29] Bob Dobbs: But I talk about,
[1:57:30] Bob Dobbs: okay,
[1:57:30] Bob Dobbs: what are the four quarters,
[1:57:32] Bob Dobbs: Bob,
[1:57:32] Bob Dobbs: and I'll list off five.
[1:57:34] Bob Dobbs: See,
[1:57:35] Bob Dobbs: that includes the one that's falling out.
[1:57:38] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:57:38] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[1:57:38] Cameron McEwen: But,
[1:57:39] Cameron McEwen: um,
[1:57:39] Cameron McEwen: Bob,
[1:57:41] Cameron McEwen: Eliot's four quartets,
[1:57:44] Cameron McEwen: each one has five sections.
[1:57:47] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[1:57:48] Bob Dobbs: I mean,
[1:57:49] Bob Dobbs: that's the five parts of rhetoric.
[1:57:52] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:57:52] Cameron McEwen: but you were just talking about the four that is five and the five that is four.
[1:57:57] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[1:57:57] Bob Dobbs: So you're saying,
[1:57:58] Bob Dobbs: Eliot,
[1:57:58] Bob Dobbs: he did the four-five thing that I'm saying I did.
[1:58:01] Bob Dobbs: He did it.
[1:58:02] Cameron McEwen: Exactly.
[1:58:03] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:58:04] Cameron McEwen: I'm saying that it's already there,
[1:58:06] Cameron McEwen: and what you're doing is bringing it out.
[1:58:08] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:58:09] Bob Dobbs: he did it for books,
[1:58:12] Bob Dobbs: for literacy.
[1:58:13] Bob Dobbs: I'm doing it beyond analog electric media into digital or post-analog electric media through something called iON,
[1:58:22] Bob Dobbs: which is a whole new weirdness.
[1:58:26] Bob Dobbs: So
[1:58:28] Bob Dobbs: I'm doing it with a later environment.
[1:58:30] Bob Dobbs: But you could say it's the same thing other aware people did.
[1:58:36] Bob Dobbs: Different medium.
[1:58:41] Cameron McEwen: If the media are archetypes of the unconscious,
[1:58:45] Cameron McEwen: then a different medium means a different key or a different scale from the unconscious.
[1:58:53] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:58:54] Bob Dobbs: you just gave me an idea.
[1:58:55] Bob Dobbs: We have the recently chief forms of consciousness,
[1:58:57] Bob Dobbs: which Baron Evans said was Finnegans Wake,
[1:58:59] Bob Dobbs: but it's also the environment.
[1:59:01] Bob Dobbs: We have the archetypes of consciousness now,
[1:59:06] Bob Dobbs: because we've been collectively consciousness.
[1:59:08] Bob Dobbs: We've been collectively conscious since the
[1:59:10] Bob Dobbs: 50s or since the Global Membrane of the global theater.
[1:59:14] Bob Dobbs: Everybody's been on the same resonant spot once the satellites were up.
[1:59:17] Bob Dobbs: So we've all been conscious.
[1:59:19] Bob Dobbs: And he talked about cliche archetype.
[1:59:20] Bob Dobbs: We are now,
[1:59:21] Bob Dobbs: there's no unconscious,
[1:59:22] Bob Dobbs: there's collective consciousness.
[1:59:23] Bob Dobbs: We are not conscious of how we got there,
[1:59:26] Bob Dobbs: but we're in a state of collective consciousness.
[1:59:27] Bob Dobbs: So I'm probably,
[1:59:29] Bob Dobbs: my chart is probably phases of collective consciousness that we've had since the 60s.
[1:59:37] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:59:37] Cameron McEwen: also forever,
[1:59:38] Cameron McEwen: also,
[1:59:39] Cameron McEwen: but for local discussion.
[1:59:42] Cameron McEwen: When something bubbles up like in the 60s as an actuality,
[1:59:47] Cameron McEwen: it has to have been a possibility.
[1:59:51] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:59:51] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[1:59:52] Cameron McEwen: Already there.
[1:59:52] Cameron McEwen: No actuality without possibility.
[1:59:54] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:59:54] Cameron McEwen: So the archetypes of the collective unconscious can be called media,
[2:00:02] Cameron McEwen: and those media are already there.
[2:00:06] Cameron McEwen: But they get developed in various ways in time,
[2:00:14] Cameron McEwen: just like a mining of a mineral can be processed in a factory or something like that.
[2:00:21] Cameron McEwen: But the mineral was already there and the possibility of fabricating it was also already there.
[2:00:29] Cameron McEwen: The factory and the product turned out by the factory are just realizations of...
[2:00:36] Cameron McEwen: possibilities that were always there.
[2:00:39] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[2:00:40] Bob Dobbs: So Freud,
[2:00:42] Bob Dobbs: he watched the effects on the chemical body.
[2:00:44] Bob Dobbs: I'm looking at the effects of the five bodies plus the hexadic body.
[2:00:48] Bob Dobbs: I never see my patients.
[2:00:51] Bob Dobbs: Might hear from them,
[2:00:52] Bob Dobbs: but we're affecting people in corporate psychiatry globally.
[2:00:57] Bob Dobbs: And that's why iON says we've got millions of listeners.
[2:01:03] Cameron McEwen: Good for you,
[2:01:04] Cameron McEwen: bud.
[2:01:07] Bob Dobbs: So I leave you with that pattern.
[2:01:10] Cameron McEwen: All right,
[2:01:10] Cameron McEwen: good.
[2:01:12] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[2:01:12] Bob Dobbs: very good.
[2:01:13] Bob Dobbs: We never get to my book,
[2:01:14] Bob Dobbs: but that's okay.
[2:01:15] Bob Dobbs: We got a lot of background work done to prepare for my book once again.
[2:01:20] Cameron McEwen: That's right.
[2:01:20] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[2:01:20] Cameron McEwen: but we looked at the well-selected quotation that you had from Cliché to archetype.
[2:01:29] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:01:30] Cameron McEwen: after doing the cut.
[2:01:32] Cameron McEwen: That quotation is very deep.
[2:01:35] Cameron McEwen: deserved a couple hours of conversation.
[2:01:39] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:01:40] Bob Dobbs: and spiraling out to this bacon quote.
[2:01:44] Bob Dobbs: That was a good find.
[2:01:45] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:01:46] Bob Dobbs: you keep finding things.
[2:01:48] Bob Dobbs: You're attracting them.
[2:01:50] Bob Dobbs: I like to say that you're in a pool and there's a beach ball.
[2:01:53] Bob Dobbs: If you try to go to it and grab it,
[2:01:56] Bob Dobbs: it'll move away from you.
[2:01:57] Bob Dobbs: But if you just leave it,
[2:01:58] Bob Dobbs: it'll float towards you.
[2:02:02] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:02:02] Cameron McEwen: I think that's right.
[2:02:03] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:02:03] Cameron McEwen: That's what
[2:02:07] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan talks about,
[2:02:08] Cameron McEwen: light through and light on.
[2:02:09] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:02:11] Bob Dobbs: So you always find stuff.
[2:02:13] Bob Dobbs: floats to you in a two-week interval between our conversations.
[2:02:19] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[2:02:19] Bob Dobbs: very good.
[2:02:20] Bob Dobbs: Thanks a lot.
[2:02:21] Bob Dobbs: We'll talk soon.
[2:02:22] Cameron McEwen: Enjoyed it.
[2:02:22] Cameron McEwen: Take care.
[2:02:23] Bob Dobbs: Very good.
[2:02:24] Bob Dobbs: Bye.