[00:02] Bob Dobbs: Hello,
[00:02] Bob Dobbs: this is Cameron McEwen and Bob Dobbs with
[00:05] Bob Dobbs: Episode 77,
[00:07] Bob Dobbs: and we're on page 120,
[00:09] Bob Dobbs: no,
[00:10] Bob Dobbs: 162 at the bottom with the Kroker quote,
[00:13] Bob Dobbs: that's where we left off,
[00:15] Bob Dobbs: and of my book slash pamphlet.
[00:19] Bob Dobbs: And we're getting into it right away,
[00:21] Bob Dobbs: we're starting a little late,
[00:23] Bob Dobbs: so
[00:24] Bob Dobbs: Cameron wants to refer to the page 11 of Take Today,
[00:27] Bob Dobbs: that quote,
[00:28] Bob Dobbs: so take it away.
[00:31] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[00:31] Cameron McEwen: I just,
[00:32] Cameron McEwen: on 160,
[00:33] Cameron McEwen: at the head of this chapter,
[00:37] Cameron McEwen: you quote
[00:39] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan and
[00:41] Cameron McEwen: Barry from
[00:44] Cameron McEwen: Take Today,
[00:44] Cameron McEwen: page 11.
[00:46] Cameron McEwen: It is man who has become both figure and ground by the electrotechnical extension of his awareness.
[00:55] Cameron McEwen: I just want to point out that at least since Plato,
[01:00] Cameron McEwen: So 2,500 years ago,
[01:04] Cameron McEwen: the problem of trying to talk about human awareness is that any kind of talk,
[01:14] Cameron McEwen: any kind of writing directed to that problem,
[01:19] Cameron McEwen: of course,
[01:19] Cameron McEwen: is itself human awareness.
[01:22] Cameron McEwen: And up until the present time,
[01:28] Cameron McEwen: no one has figured out
[01:31] Cameron McEwen: how to get out of that magic circle.
[01:36] Cameron McEwen: And
[01:37] Cameron McEwen: I just want to suggest that everything in this chapter and in the Tech Body chapter to follow,
[01:46] Cameron McEwen: one of the contexts that we need to understand this stuff within is this circle that is imprisoning human awareness.
[01:59] Cameron McEwen: It doesn't allow it.
[02:00] Cameron McEwen: to get out of itself to understand the problems that it itself is continually bringing into the world.
[02:12] Bob Dobbs: Is that the cliché that our minds screw with us?
[02:17] Cameron McEwen: Sure,
[02:17] Cameron McEwen: sure.
[02:19] Cameron McEwen: Or it's the rear-view mirror problem.
[02:25] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[02:25] Cameron McEwen: but no,
[02:25] Bob Dobbs: that's a metaphor.
[02:27] Bob Dobbs: We don't know what the mind is.
[02:28] Bob Dobbs: We don't know what our second science is.
[02:31] Bob Dobbs: And they always say the animals don't have the second science.
[02:34] Bob Dobbs: This is the bane of being human.
[02:36] Bob Dobbs: We've got this self-awareness and we don't know what it is or how to resolve it.
[02:43] Bob Dobbs: Some people call that the mind,
[02:45] Bob Dobbs: right?
[02:45] Bob Dobbs: We've got a mind and nature doesn't.
[02:49] Bob Dobbs: So it has changed.
[02:54] Bob Dobbs: That's the man as continues to be content on page 11.
[02:58] Bob Dobbs: Still the content maybe,
[03:00] Bob Dobbs: right?
[03:01] Bob Dobbs: After the quote,
[03:02] Bob Dobbs: it says,
[03:02] Bob Dobbs: man is still the content.
[03:06] Bob Dobbs: The content is lost in our mirror of ourselves,
[03:09] Bob Dobbs: or the mind.
[03:11] Bob Dobbs: We can't resolve the split.
[03:13] Bob Dobbs: I remember
[03:15] Bob Dobbs: Kroker talking about the antinomies of Hellenic culture,
[03:19] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[03:19] Bob Dobbs: 2,000 more years ago.
[03:22] Bob Dobbs: They couldn't stop,
[03:23] Bob Dobbs: they couldn't get out of the classical paradoxes,
[03:25] Bob Dobbs: which became apparent through the alphabet and the beginning of visual space.
[03:30] Bob Dobbs: But he says that Augustine solved the problem.
[03:33] Bob Dobbs: I think this is Talcott Parsons or Cochrane,
[03:35] Bob Dobbs: one of those guys,
[03:37] Bob Dobbs: said this.
[03:38] Bob Dobbs: And he knew about that,
[03:40] Bob Dobbs: so he's quoting it.
[03:41] Bob Dobbs: He says Augustine created the third term to resolve the classical dialectic antinomies,
[03:47] Bob Dobbs: I think was the word.
[03:49] Bob Dobbs: And so that third term was a novelty because that was the abstraction that the alphabet created,
[03:56] Bob Dobbs: or the schizoidness.
[03:58] Bob Dobbs: So it doubled.
[04:00] Bob Dobbs: the self-awareness double problem,
[04:01] Bob Dobbs: which was always there,
[04:02] Bob Dobbs: it added another dimension to it,
[04:04] Bob Dobbs: and Augustine thought he solved it.
[04:07] Cameron McEwen: Yes,
[04:08] Cameron McEwen: a lot of people thought they solved it,
[04:11] Cameron McEwen: and it's nearly always has to do with some third term.
[04:18] Cameron McEwen: The problem is that although individual people flatter themselves along those lines.
[04:30] Cameron McEwen: Obtaining any sort of practical application of that thought remains outstanding.
[04:40] Cameron McEwen: And it remains outstanding at a time when mind is incredibly misused and represents a tremendous danger to itself.
[04:53] Bob Dobbs: And that would be the effect of the printing press,
[04:56] Bob Dobbs: right?
[04:58] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[04:58] Cameron McEwen: well,
[04:59] Cameron McEwen: you could say it's the effect of the printing press,
[05:01] Cameron McEwen: but the printing press only magnifies what is already in humans.
[05:08] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[05:08] Bob Dobbs: but it doubled,
[05:10] Bob Dobbs: it went further than the alphabet.
[05:14] Bob Dobbs: As a matter of fact,
[05:15] Bob Dobbs: it made people think they were into the third term of expanding,
[05:21] Bob Dobbs: and they were having excitement of the novelty of writing and publishing and coming up with ideas.
[05:27] Bob Dobbs: Sure.
[05:29] Cameron McEwen: The same thing is happening now,
[05:32] Cameron McEwen: but instead of being squared,
[05:35] Cameron McEwen: it's being cubed.
[05:38] Cameron McEwen: So
[05:39] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan came to see that the electrical awareness didn't necessarily solve the problem of the
[05:54] Cameron McEwen: Gutenberg Galaxy in the printing press.
[05:58] Cameron McEwen: it could actually make those problems worse.
[06:02] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[06:03] Bob Dobbs: And the cube,
[06:04] Bob Dobbs: that's on my chart in the Dobbs quadrant.
[06:06] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if you've noticed that,
[06:08] Bob Dobbs: the cube level.
[06:10] Bob Dobbs: I have,
[06:11] Bob Dobbs: I think,
[06:11] Bob Dobbs: quadrophrenia cubed,
[06:12] Bob Dobbs: something like that.
[06:15] Bob Dobbs: Uh-huh.
[06:15] Cameron McEwen: You're right.
[06:16] Bob Dobbs: That's in there.
[06:17] Bob Dobbs: So the electric environment,
[06:19] Bob Dobbs: because in my quadrant,
[06:22] Bob Dobbs: which is the whole chart,
[06:24] Bob Dobbs: and then I have the different subquadrants,
[06:26] Bob Dobbs: But 60 to 90 is this growing of the Android meme,
[06:30] Bob Dobbs: and I call it ecstasy.
[06:32] Bob Dobbs: There's something about the electric environment that people think they can dispense with the printed delusion or the printed disservice.
[06:42] Bob Dobbs: And then they're stoned,
[06:44] Bob Dobbs: electrically.
[06:45] Bob Dobbs: They're not taking drugs necessarily,
[06:46] Bob Dobbs: though the culture does get on drugs as therapy,
[06:49] Bob Dobbs: but it can be constantly engaged in receiving percept.
[06:56] Bob Dobbs: data.
[06:57] Bob Dobbs: I remember McLuhan saying,
[06:58] Bob Dobbs: some famous poet of two or three hundred years ago,
[07:01] Bob Dobbs: he loved watching images,
[07:02] Bob Dobbs: whatever images were just starting to come in in England or someplace.
[07:08] Bob Dobbs: So he's saying,
[07:08] Bob Dobbs: look,
[07:09] Bob Dobbs: it's,
[07:10] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[07:10] Bob Dobbs: people are,
[07:11] Bob Dobbs: that's the poetic drive to engage in sensory overload or sensory perception and enhance it with whatever gadget humans come up with.
[07:22] Bob Dobbs: So what is...
[07:23] Bob Dobbs: what is that doing to the SubGenius of self-awareness?
[07:27] Bob Dobbs: It's allowing us to diminish the bit,
[07:30] Bob Dobbs: but because we are literate and never solved it,
[07:33] Bob Dobbs: it catches up on people at some point.
[07:37] Bob Dobbs: It screws them up,
[07:38] Bob Dobbs: right?
[07:39] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[07:39] Bob Dobbs: sir.
[07:40] Bob Dobbs: Go ahead.
[07:42] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[07:42] Cameron McEwen: no,
[07:43] Cameron McEwen: I'm agreeing with you.
[07:47] Cameron McEwen: This is a problem that lies at the heart of being human.
[07:54] Cameron McEwen: The humans constantly have the possibility of liberation,
[08:01] Cameron McEwen: but they don't want to be liberated.
[08:05] Cameron McEwen: And one of the factors that keeps them from being liberated is that they have completely stoned ideas of what it would be to be liberated.
[08:21] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[08:22] Bob Dobbs: they...
[08:24] Bob Dobbs: They imagine they can totally slough off the mind and function somehow.
[08:30] Bob Dobbs: Or the thinking about things,
[08:31] Bob Dobbs: or the awareness of things,
[08:32] Bob Dobbs: they can get to this stone thing.
[08:34] Bob Dobbs: I mean,
[08:35] Bob Dobbs: the extropians think they can do that by extracting the brain or something and put it into a computer matrix,
[08:42] Bob Dobbs: right?
[08:43] Bob Dobbs: And somehow you've solved a lot of the self-awareness problems.
[08:48] Bob Dobbs: But the...
[08:52] Bob Dobbs: So in the...
[08:54] Bob Dobbs: 50s with the beatniks and the beginning of the counterculture,
[08:58] Bob Dobbs: people started saying the Cartesian mind's a problem,
[09:01] Bob Dobbs: and they called it the mind-body problem.
[09:03] Bob Dobbs: Alan Watts would talk a lot about that and became famous.
[09:06] Bob Dobbs: They would not talk about the technical effects like McLuhan did.
[09:09] Bob Dobbs: He said Watts was too simple.
[09:11] Bob Dobbs: But they somehow thought they were going to get liberated.
[09:14] Bob Dobbs: So there's lots of visions of being liberated from the mind self-awareness,
[09:18] Bob Dobbs: an unconscious literate effect.
[09:21] Bob Dobbs: But then that led to...
[09:23] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[09:23] Bob Dobbs: excessive
[09:25] Bob Dobbs: Buddhism, meditation,
[09:27] Bob Dobbs: Zen,
[09:28] Bob Dobbs: monasteries,
[09:29] Bob Dobbs: and drug-taking.
[09:30] Bob Dobbs: And then the culture getting more crazy in the 70s,
[09:33] Bob Dobbs: and it just became normal.
[09:35] Bob Dobbs: Businessmen were doing cocaine.
[09:37] Bob Dobbs: The drive to get yourself out of the self-awareness became more and more intense.
[09:42] Bob Dobbs: Or would you say it was always like that in humans?
[09:46] Bob Dobbs: No,
[09:47] Cameron McEwen: I think you're right that the drive became more and more intense.
[09:52] Cameron McEwen: But when a drive becomes more and more intense,
[09:55] Cameron McEwen: instead of tending to solution,
[10:00] Cameron McEwen: that drive can turn to deeper problems,
[10:05] Cameron McEwen: can turn into deeper problems.
[10:07] Cameron McEwen: And so that's it's not only a problem of mind becoming aware of mind.
[10:16] Cameron McEwen: it's also a problem that the very drive to that end is itself distorted.
[10:23] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[10:24] Bob Dobbs: all the notions of liberation,
[10:26] Bob Dobbs: what Baudrillard called all the different,
[10:28] Bob Dobbs: he called it after the orgy.
[10:29] Bob Dobbs: So all these different sensory explosions and exaggerations and communal disruption or communal exaggeration,
[10:38] Bob Dobbs: none of it worked for some level.
[10:41] Bob Dobbs: And so they were saying that our world has been malaised and depressed the last 10 years.
[10:45] Bob Dobbs: 15,
[10:46] Bob Dobbs: 20 years,
[10:47] Bob Dobbs: right?
[10:47] Bob Dobbs: Because nobody's got an answer verbally about anything.
[10:52] Bob Dobbs: And we're just going on a collision course,
[10:54] Bob Dobbs: which is what you see.
[10:56] Bob Dobbs: We just can't stop it.
[10:59] Bob Dobbs: Because nobody has a way to articulate something that'll make people stop.
[11:04] Bob Dobbs: So in that sense,
[11:05] Bob Dobbs: we're out of our mind,
[11:06] Bob Dobbs: and that means we're in the virtual space,
[11:08] Bob Dobbs: and then we get into the digital
[11:12] Bob Dobbs: Subjectivity and people thinking,
[11:15] Bob Dobbs: just texting and involved in their virtual computers all day long,
[11:20] Bob Dobbs: that's the new drug.
[11:22] Bob Dobbs: It's not a chemical body drug.
[11:24] Bob Dobbs: It's a life drug based on the technology and how far it's extended.
[11:30] Bob Dobbs: So we really got ourselves in a mess here,
[11:33] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[11:34] Bob Dobbs: which is biblically kind of predicted,
[11:36] Bob Dobbs: maybe by all the prophets,
[11:37] Bob Dobbs: right?
[11:38] Bob Dobbs: We were going to do ourselves in.
[11:40] Bob Dobbs: Peace.
[11:42] Bob Dobbs: And it got distorted by different levels of religious belief and different ways of people worrying about it and praying or trying to get themselves out of it.
[11:52] Bob Dobbs: But the seriousness of the problem,
[11:54] Bob Dobbs: I think,
[11:54] Bob Dobbs: was what the prophets were pointing to.
[11:56] Bob Dobbs: And McLuhan started to see that.
[11:59] Bob Dobbs: He saw,
[11:59] Bob Dobbs: oh,
[12:00] Bob Dobbs: this is a bad problem we've got here,
[12:02] Bob Dobbs: you know.
[12:02] Bob Dobbs: We can't even have religion anymore,
[12:04] Bob Dobbs: he said.
[12:06] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[12:07] Cameron McEwen: well,
[12:07] Cameron McEwen: he was very early on.
[12:09] Cameron McEwen: He was aware that.
[12:11] Cameron McEwen: Most religion was part of the problem.
[12:14] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[12:15] Bob Dobbs: and religion was,
[12:16] Bob Dobbs: like he said,
[12:17] Bob Dobbs: sin was really awareness,
[12:18] Bob Dobbs: not anything else the culture said.
[12:20] Bob Dobbs: It was the awareness problem,
[12:22] Bob Dobbs: he said,
[12:22] Bob Dobbs: was original sin,
[12:25] Bob Dobbs: which I guess you're citing,
[12:27] Bob Dobbs: the awareness problem.
[12:29] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[12:32] Cameron McEwen: the problem I see to that is that people use the word...
[12:38] Cameron McEwen: awareness or even we're using the word awareness now but um uh we don't know what that uh means we don't know what awareness is in in the sense of we're not able to pass on to
[12:54] Cameron McEwen: people who need that awareness we're not able to pass that awareness on yeah because more and more people are saying everybody's getting stupider i don't think
[13:09] Bob Dobbs: The Native Americans or different tribes in history felt everybody was getting stupid,
[13:13] Bob Dobbs: right?
[13:14] Bob Dobbs: They just were up against another tribe that was equally,
[13:18] Bob Dobbs: had abilities and just had to fight it out and win or lose.
[13:24] Bob Dobbs: No,
[13:24] Bob Dobbs: I don't think they thought their culture was getting stupid.
[13:27] Bob Dobbs: This is strange that we're thinking we're all becoming stupider.
[13:31] Bob Dobbs: And people do say,
[13:33] Bob Dobbs: I don't know what's going on anymore.
[13:35] Bob Dobbs: I do feel stupid,
[13:37] Bob Dobbs: you know?
[13:38] Bob Dobbs: So when man is about to figure ground,
[13:40] Bob Dobbs: what that quote points to is the extension of our awareness.
[13:43] Bob Dobbs: This has really done us in,
[13:45] Bob Dobbs: the electrical extension,
[13:47] Bob Dobbs: because we never prepared to modulate it ecologically,
[13:52] Bob Dobbs: turn it on and off,
[13:53] Bob Dobbs: see where it's really going.
[13:55] Cameron McEwen: Right,
[13:55] Cameron McEwen: right.
[13:56] Cameron McEwen: So the phrase you just used,
[14:01] Cameron McEwen: that it's the extension,
[14:05] Cameron McEwen: that is a double-edged sword.
[14:08] Cameron McEwen: Because what is needed is an extension of awareness that becomes aware of itself.
[14:14] Cameron McEwen: But when our normal awareness becomes extended,
[14:19] Cameron McEwen: then instead of it tending towards a solution of anything,
[14:24] Cameron McEwen: it makes everything worse.
[14:26] Cameron McEwen: And that's the vicious circle.
[14:34] Bob Dobbs: None of the schools of awareness work anymore.
[14:36] Bob Dobbs: Traditionally,
[14:36] Bob Dobbs: esoteric or religion or psychology,
[14:40] Bob Dobbs: none of the schools of awareness.
[14:42] Bob Dobbs: We need a new kind of awareness,
[14:44] Bob Dobbs: which you might say would be the first time we got to an awareness.
[14:48] Bob Dobbs: And we can now because everything is thrown back at us so much.
[14:54] Cameron McEwen: I hope so.
[14:55] Cameron McEwen: I hope so.
[14:56] Cameron McEwen: You used the word can there.
[15:00] Bob Dobbs: I don't know.
[15:00] Cameron McEwen: That question is outstanding.
[15:01] Bob Dobbs: It's a probe.
[15:02] Bob Dobbs: It's a probe.
[15:03] Bob Dobbs: I don't know what other word to use.
[15:05] Bob Dobbs: But what's interesting is everybody you encounter generally,
[15:13] Bob Dobbs: And we don't because we're in a certain position where we're more isolated.
[15:17] Bob Dobbs: We're hermits.
[15:18] Bob Dobbs: But,
[15:19] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[15:19] Bob Dobbs: you hear you can watch something and see what people are saying.
[15:23] Bob Dobbs: They all,
[15:25] Bob Dobbs: it seems to be a massive,
[15:27] Bob Dobbs: everybody's out there saying,
[15:28] Bob Dobbs: man,
[15:28] Bob Dobbs: the people are too stupid.
[15:30] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[15:30] Bob Dobbs: and they try to find,
[15:31] Bob Dobbs: and they're talking to somebody on their Facebook page,
[15:33] Bob Dobbs: a small group,
[15:34] Bob Dobbs: a little nano community that they think are people who understand the problem.
[15:37] Bob Dobbs: But they're only gathering around an awareness that we're really screwed up.
[15:41] Bob Dobbs: There's a lot of that.
[15:43] Bob Dobbs: from,
[15:45] Bob Dobbs: you could say,
[15:45] Bob Dobbs: ordinary people,
[15:47] Bob Dobbs: not so educated.
[15:48] Bob Dobbs: Everybody seems to have a sense of urgency or a sense of futility going on,
[15:54] Bob Dobbs: and that's an effect of the electric collective consciousness that,
[15:58] Bob Dobbs: I don't know,
[15:58] Bob Dobbs: Finnegans Wake,
[15:59] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan maybe saw,
[16:00] Bob Dobbs: that we were all going to get equalized and on the same page about how fucked up it is.
[16:07] Bob Dobbs: Do you know what I mean?
[16:08] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[16:08] Bob Dobbs: You see?
[16:09] Bob Dobbs: And it's across the globe.
[16:11] Bob Dobbs: So a lot of...
[16:12] Bob Dobbs: So there's so many cultures that don't engage in social politics or the traditional means of trying to do something in this society.
[16:21] Bob Dobbs: They are either coming up with their own little groups of help and different voluntary situations,
[16:26] Bob Dobbs: or they're giving up.
[16:28] Bob Dobbs: Or you come down to my chart,
[16:30] Bob Dobbs: it's mass paranoia,
[16:32] Bob Dobbs: mass schizophrenia,
[16:33] Bob Dobbs: mass hysteria,
[16:34] Bob Dobbs: mass panic,
[16:35] Bob Dobbs: and mass ecstasy.
[16:36] Bob Dobbs: This is what we're inside of,
[16:39] Bob Dobbs: and there's variations of it.
[16:43] Bob Dobbs: I guess what's interesting maybe is that the millennials are so,
[16:49] Bob Dobbs: quote,
[16:49] Bob Dobbs: ridiculous in what they're forced to try to adapt to.
[16:53] Bob Dobbs: They can't leave their home.
[16:54] Bob Dobbs: They can't get a job.
[16:55] Bob Dobbs: They can't get anything.
[16:57] Bob Dobbs: We're confronting that we are not helping the latest generation get somewheres.
[17:03] Bob Dobbs: And that bothers a lot of parents or older people,
[17:06] Bob Dobbs: right?
[17:07] Bob Dobbs: They have a sense of,
[17:08] Bob Dobbs: we've got to pass on something here.
[17:10] Bob Dobbs: But these people are gone.
[17:12] Bob Dobbs: They're not here.
[17:12] Bob Dobbs: They're not listening to us.
[17:14] Bob Dobbs: We don't know what they're doing,
[17:15] Bob Dobbs: but it doesn't look that great traditionally.
[17:18] Bob Dobbs: But are they working out a solution?
[17:21] Bob Dobbs: Probably not.
[17:23] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[17:24] Cameron McEwen: notice that the people that regret where we are and regret the lack of connection with the tradition are the very people who were thrown off tradition to their great happiness back starting
[17:39] Cameron McEwen: in the
[17:41] Bob Dobbs: 1950s. Yeah.
[17:41] Cameron McEwen: So the generation that was growing up in the
[17:45] Cameron McEwen: 1950s was told that if you know a couple bars of Bill Haley and the Comets,
[17:51] Cameron McEwen: that is much more intelligent than knowing anything about Mozart.
[17:55] Cameron McEwen: And if you wear your hair in a certain way,
[17:59] Cameron McEwen: that means that you're an enlightened human being,
[18:02] Bob Dobbs: right?
[18:03] Cameron McEwen: Et cetera,
[18:03] Cameron McEwen: et cetera,
[18:04] Cameron McEwen: et cetera.
[18:06] Bob Dobbs: Zappa used to comment on that a lot,
[18:08] Bob Dobbs: about how people got
[18:10] Bob Dobbs: You had to be in high school in the
[18:12] Bob Dobbs: 50s. You had to act dumb.
[18:14] Bob Dobbs: Could not show some kind of probably literate intelligence,
[18:18] Bob Dobbs: left hemisphere stuff or something.
[18:20] Bob Dobbs: Those were nerds.
[18:21] Bob Dobbs: So that to me was the beginning of the tribal,
[18:24] Bob Dobbs: everybody merging and tuned in to where the population was or what your peers were in school because things were changing.
[18:32] Bob Dobbs: New feds every three weeks or every two months and you had to stay tuned and aware of that.
[18:37] Bob Dobbs: Everybody became...
[18:39] Bob Dobbs: super involved with the classroom without walls and adapting to it.
[18:44] Bob Dobbs: And that might have looked stupid,
[18:45] Bob Dobbs: but most people from,
[18:47] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[18:47] Bob Dobbs: the boomer level and the Generation X and then the next ones and the millennials,
[18:51] Bob Dobbs: the tuning into people was a way of having some kind of social harmony.
[18:56] Bob Dobbs: So it was called fads or conformists,
[18:58] Bob Dobbs: but I could see how it was a new kind of conformist,
[19:01] Bob Dobbs: not the literate homogeneity.
[19:03] Bob Dobbs: It was slightly heterogeneous,
[19:05] Bob Dobbs: but there was a pressure for people to tune in.
[19:08] Bob Dobbs: And you could easily step outside and call it stupid,
[19:10] Bob Dobbs: but you couldn't stop the mass ESP going on that everybody thought they had to tune into.
[19:16] Bob Dobbs: And that was the global theater.
[19:20] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[19:20] Cameron McEwen: and that's what you call the membrane,
[19:22] Cameron McEwen: I think,
[19:22] Cameron McEwen: right?
[19:22] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[19:23] Bob Dobbs: the universal membrane is past the theater.
[19:25] Bob Dobbs: It's where everybody's just tuned into where it's at.
[19:29] Bob Dobbs: This crazy thing that you had to be tuned in.
[19:32] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[19:33] Bob Dobbs: a lot of people,
[19:34] Bob Dobbs: they dropped off.
[19:35] Bob Dobbs: They couldn't keep up with it.
[19:36] Bob Dobbs: So they got totally into their job,
[19:39] Bob Dobbs: they got totally into entertainment,
[19:41] Bob Dobbs: all these different extensions or older media,
[19:45] Bob Dobbs: analog media that provided distraction and involvement is where everybody went.
[19:50] Bob Dobbs: And that's the huge fragmentation that happened electrically,
[19:54] Bob Dobbs: not literate fragmentation,
[19:55] Bob Dobbs: but electric,
[19:57] Bob Dobbs: now digitally we have nano communities,
[20:00] Bob Dobbs: that's what they call them,
[20:01] Bob Dobbs: right?
[20:01] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[20:02] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[20:03] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[20:03] Cameron McEwen: Distracted from distraction by distraction.
[20:06] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[20:07] Bob Dobbs: And
[20:09] Bob Dobbs: I see that since the Bible says we're going to blow ourselves up,
[20:16] Bob Dobbs: I can see,
[20:17] Bob Dobbs: not from Christian belief or anything,
[20:20] Bob Dobbs: or
[20:21] Bob Dobbs: Christian concepts,
[20:21] Bob Dobbs: I see more from the McLuhan point that the media is just nailing everybody and they're going to have a collision,
[20:28] Bob Dobbs: which we may be on in two weeks from now,
[20:31] Bob Dobbs: right?
[20:32] Bob Dobbs: That's what everybody's worried about.
[20:35] Bob Dobbs: But it seems this collision was inevitable,
[20:37] Bob Dobbs: and the prophets,
[20:39] Bob Dobbs: those guys trying to be aware in all the different religions,
[20:43] Bob Dobbs: could see that.
[20:45] Bob Dobbs: And so the big ones,
[20:48] Bob Dobbs: John of Patmos,
[20:49] Bob Dobbs: the Book of Revelation,
[20:50] Bob Dobbs: and then what's his name,
[20:51] Bob Dobbs: Nostradamus,
[20:52] Bob Dobbs: and a few others,
[20:53] Bob Dobbs: they all saw wars happening and then a big conflagration.
[20:59] Bob Dobbs: Even iON sees it.
[21:02] Bob Dobbs: It makes sense that we have to bash ourselves up.
[21:06] Bob Dobbs: Nothing else is going to stop people.
[21:10] Bob Dobbs: And they're counting on that to be kept being put off.
[21:14] Bob Dobbs: Someone won't press the button.
[21:16] Bob Dobbs: Someone will intervene,
[21:17] Bob Dobbs: and we get close,
[21:17] Bob Dobbs: and then we don't.
[21:18] Bob Dobbs: And that's the way maybe it's been for
[21:20] Bob Dobbs: 30 years,
[21:22] Bob Dobbs: because there's been so many people rising up,
[21:24] Bob Dobbs: and this is it,
[21:26] Bob Dobbs: we're doomed,
[21:27] Bob Dobbs: and then they do something to try to save themselves,
[21:29] Bob Dobbs: and then it doesn't happen.
[21:31] Bob Dobbs: And then that makes people confused.
[21:33] Bob Dobbs: So the collision,
[21:35] Bob Dobbs: I don't see it.
[21:38] Bob Dobbs: It's totally explained by McLuhan why we're going to have a conclusion.
[21:43] Bob Dobbs: And he said,
[21:43] Bob Dobbs: I'm an apocalyptic,
[21:45] Bob Dobbs: even though that's not the same meaning as Armageddon,
[21:47] Bob Dobbs: right?
[21:48] Bob Dobbs: Apocalypse is something else.
[21:49] Bob Dobbs: But maybe it's the apocalypse of revelation of actually seeing what our problem was,
[21:54] Bob Dobbs: what you're calling the awareness problem.
[21:56] Bob Dobbs: If everybody sees that,
[21:58] Bob Dobbs: that goes beyond cultural bias.
[22:01] Bob Dobbs: cultural preference and cultural idiosyncrasy.
[22:03] Bob Dobbs: It's just a raw perception.
[22:05] Bob Dobbs: So there's a raw perception going on,
[22:07] Bob Dobbs: which
[22:08] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan called the collective consciousness or the age of anxiety.
[22:12] Bob Dobbs: That's where we're at and nobody can do anything about it.
[22:18] Cameron McEwen: Yes,
[22:18] Cameron McEwen: I would say that the age of anxiety is the age of being squared or cubed in and
[22:31] Cameron McEwen: this lack of orientation.
[22:33] Cameron McEwen: So people are thinking about the apocalypse or
[22:41] Cameron McEwen: Armageddon as almost as a solution,
[22:45] Cameron McEwen: which is crazy.
[22:46] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[22:46] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[22:47] Bob Dobbs: I'm not saying it's a solution,
[22:48] Bob Dobbs: but I see it's due to media dynamics,
[22:53] Bob Dobbs: the violence of the media that McLuhan talked about,
[22:56] Bob Dobbs: the collision of environments.
[22:58] Bob Dobbs: I can see that it does not end.
[23:02] Bob Dobbs: It's inevitable,
[23:03] Bob Dobbs: that bigness.
[23:04] Bob Dobbs: And that's the main prophecy of all those prophets,
[23:07] Bob Dobbs: right?
[23:07] Bob Dobbs: You're going to do yourselves in.
[23:08] Bob Dobbs: They even say the sky is going to collapse.
[23:10] Bob Dobbs: The stars are going to collapse.
[23:12] Bob Dobbs: Men's minds will be broken.
[23:13] Bob Dobbs: Their hearts will fail them.
[23:15] Bob Dobbs: All that stuff,
[23:15] Bob Dobbs: right?
[23:16] Bob Dobbs: Very dramatic.
[23:17] Bob Dobbs: You can see aspects of that have been going on for 30,
[23:19] Bob Dobbs: 40 years.
[23:21] Bob Dobbs: So lots of people have freaked out and died in different ways.
[23:24] Bob Dobbs: They had their own little Armageddon.
[23:27] Bob Dobbs: But the collective,
[23:28] Bob Dobbs: we're so involved,
[23:30] Bob Dobbs: and so membrane,
[23:33] Bob Dobbs: that just being the president,
[23:35] Bob Dobbs: that's the only thing that's attempting to be outside of the mess,
[23:39] Bob Dobbs: right?
[23:40] Bob Dobbs: So the news focuses on the fucking presidency all day long,
[23:43] Bob Dobbs: everything.
[23:44] Bob Dobbs: The elections are only,
[23:46] Bob Dobbs: everybody's worrying about who's going to be the next president,
[23:49] Bob Dobbs: and they project the personality in that.
[23:51] Bob Dobbs: But it seems that that's all that's left,
[23:53] Bob Dobbs: is that the word that makes the market,
[23:56] Bob Dobbs: this
[23:56] Bob Dobbs: Steersman is the White House,
[23:59] Bob Dobbs: and we're wondering if can we find someone who could figure out how to do it and communicate to everybody and get everybody to relax?
[24:08] Bob Dobbs: That doesn't seem likely.
[24:11] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[24:12] Cameron McEwen: not only does it not seem likely,
[24:13] Cameron McEwen: but that sort of thinking is terribly problematic.
[24:17] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[24:17] Bob Dobbs: but you see how the Global Membrane merges everybody so that one person runs the show,
[24:24] Bob Dobbs: seems to be making the word.
[24:26] Bob Dobbs: I mean,
[24:28] Bob Dobbs: to me,
[24:28] Bob Dobbs: it began in the Clinton era in the
[24:30] Bob Dobbs: 90s, and that's when the digital stuff,
[24:31] Bob Dobbs: the membrane was really getting squared.
[24:34] Bob Dobbs: They just talked about Clinton all the time.
[24:37] Bob Dobbs: They didn't seem to talk about,
[24:38] Bob Dobbs: maybe they did,
[24:39] Bob Dobbs: but it didn't seem that way.
[24:40] Bob Dobbs: And then each president was a new panic button.
[24:43] Bob Dobbs: George Bush was stupid.
[24:45] Bob Dobbs: Obama was supposed to do something,
[24:47] Bob Dobbs: but he was quickly failing.
[24:49] Bob Dobbs: And then Trump scares everybody.
[24:52] Bob Dobbs: It just gets stupider.
[24:53] Bob Dobbs: And then you got
[24:54] Bob Dobbs: Biden.
[24:55] Bob Dobbs: Can't finish a syllable.
[24:58] Bob Dobbs: He admits he doesn't know what he is,
[25:01] Bob Dobbs: right?
[25:01] Bob Dobbs: He walks around,
[25:02] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[25:02] Bob Dobbs: what is he,
[25:03] Bob Dobbs: what's that word?
[25:04] Bob Dobbs: You slough around with your feet.
[25:06] Bob Dobbs: He stumbles around,
[25:07] Bob Dobbs: but there's another.
[25:08] Bob Dobbs: He sloppily steps around and bumps into things.
[25:11] Bob Dobbs: He's not hiding it.
[25:15] Bob Dobbs: And,
[25:15] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[25:16] Bob Dobbs: there are still people saying
[25:18] Bob Dobbs: Biden's a great president.
[25:22] Bob Dobbs: Who are those people?
[25:23] Bob Dobbs: Who are the Democrats?
[25:24] Bob Dobbs: or they...
[25:25] Bob Dobbs: They're going to profit from a Democratic victory or something.
[25:28] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[25:28] Cameron McEwen: that's right.
[25:29] Cameron McEwen: The people that gain from that perception.
[25:32] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[25:33] Cameron McEwen: Nobody actually has that perception,
[25:36] Cameron McEwen: especially the people that are saying it the most don't believe it.
[25:40] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[25:41] Bob Dobbs: And that's what Kroker wrote a lot about,
[25:43] Bob Dobbs: the increasing cynicism of everybody.
[25:48] Bob Dobbs: Did McLuhan say that in his terms?
[25:53] Bob Dobbs: Cynicism.
[25:53] Bob Dobbs: I never saw him use that word too much.
[25:57] Bob Dobbs: Was he talking about global paranoia?
[26:00] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[26:00] Bob Dobbs: what?
[26:01] Bob Dobbs: The point of this,
[26:03] Bob Dobbs: everybody becomes more sophisticated,
[26:05] Bob Dobbs: detached,
[26:05] Bob Dobbs: alienated,
[26:06] Bob Dobbs: and screwed up and failed and aware of it,
[26:09] Bob Dobbs: and they call that cynicism.
[26:12] Bob Dobbs: In almost a post-information society,
[26:14] Bob Dobbs: nobody believes anything that's said about anything.
[26:17] Bob Dobbs: And each generation gets into that level earlier.
[26:25] Cameron McEwen: But did McLuhan address that in any way?
[26:26] Cameron McEwen: Oh,
[26:26] Cameron McEwen: I think he did.
[26:30] Cameron McEwen: He found that when he talked about television in the
[26:33] Cameron McEwen: 1950s, that people took him to be some sort of utopian thinker who thought that if everybody watched TV
[26:43] Cameron McEwen: 24 hours a day,
[26:45] Cameron McEwen: that would solve the problem for the world.
[26:47] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[26:48] Bob Dobbs: that's so crazy.
[26:49] Cameron McEwen: Even today there's all sorts of articles or books even,
[26:52] Cameron McEwen: and even by people like Kroker,
[26:55] Cameron McEwen: that continue to see McLuhan as some sort of utopian
[26:59] Cameron McEwen: TV guy.
[27:01] Cameron McEwen: But he was very clear that this was just a squaring or cubing of the traditional problems.
[27:09] Bob Dobbs: I sat in on,
[27:10] Bob Dobbs: Casey would sit in his courses,
[27:12] Bob Dobbs: his classes in the afternoon,
[27:14] Bob Dobbs: And I remember we watched some film.
[27:16] Bob Dobbs: documentary on NASA and when it was over,
[27:19] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan spoke first.
[27:20] Bob Dobbs: He just said,
[27:21] Bob Dobbs: we're doomed.
[27:22] Bob Dobbs: That's all he said,
[27:25] Bob Dobbs: we're doomed.
[27:26] Bob Dobbs: And the students were shocked.
[27:27] Bob Dobbs: They didn't know where to go with that.
[27:28] Bob Dobbs: And I don't know,
[27:30] Bob Dobbs: he just ignored it and they went on talking about stuff with his normal aphorisms.
[27:35] Bob Dobbs: But I thought it was amazing the way he,
[27:37] Bob Dobbs: the documentary did not have a doomed effect,
[27:42] Bob Dobbs: a doomed content,
[27:44] Bob Dobbs: you know?
[27:45] Bob Dobbs: But he was looking at maybe the spatial,
[27:48] Bob Dobbs: the going off planet,
[27:50] Bob Dobbs: planet of the dead,
[27:51] Bob Dobbs: because the satellite moon program and all that stuff,
[27:55] Bob Dobbs: the space journeys,
[27:58] Bob Dobbs: he saw that as futile,
[28:00] Bob Dobbs: doomed.
[28:01] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[28:01] Bob Dobbs: he does say in War and Peace that we shouldn't do space like Columbus,
[28:06] Bob Dobbs: going out there with a man on a boat or a man on a ship.
[28:10] Bob Dobbs: We should just send the ships out by themselves.
[28:13] Bob Dobbs: Remember that?
[28:14] Cameron McEwen: Sure,
[28:14] Cameron McEwen: which is happening now.
[28:16] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[28:16] Bob Dobbs: we've eventually got to that.
[28:19] Bob Dobbs: And he's the prophet of it.
[28:20] Bob Dobbs: It's not working.
[28:22] Bob Dobbs: I don't think it's better than the Columbus idea of people going out and doing something out there.
[28:34] Bob Dobbs: But,
[28:34] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[28:34] Bob Dobbs: every technological enterprise is not looking very optimistic,
[28:39] Bob Dobbs: other than big pharmacies.
[28:41] Bob Dobbs: And they're just lying to everybody.
[28:45] Bob Dobbs: Right?
[28:47] Cameron McEwen: One thing I want to point out is that you said,
[28:49] Cameron McEwen: well,
[28:49] Cameron McEwen: you know,
[28:50] Cameron McEwen: did McLuhan understand this sort of cosmic paranoia?
[28:54] Cameron McEwen: In around 1950,
[28:59] Cameron McEwen: he began to talk about the clash of communication technologies as comparable to fission and fusion.
[29:10] Cameron McEwen: and often talked about literature,
[29:15] Cameron McEwen: for example,
[29:16] Cameron McEwen: in terms of bombs.
[29:19] Cameron McEwen: So when he talks about
[29:22] Cameron McEwen: Lewis's Cosmic Man,
[29:24] Cameron McEwen: it was like an H-bomb going off in the desert with no effect,
[29:32] Cameron McEwen: with nobody even noticing.
[29:33] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[29:34] Bob Dobbs: the deal was fog,
[29:36] Bob Dobbs: he said.
[29:37] Bob Dobbs: The effect was fog.
[29:38] Bob Dobbs: He used the word F-U-G.
[29:41] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[29:41] Cameron McEwen: at the end of the letter.
[29:43] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[29:43] Bob Dobbs: and you know where he got that?
[29:44] Bob Dobbs: Effect nothing,
[29:45] Bob Dobbs: he said,
[29:45] Bob Dobbs: or something fug.
[29:46] Bob Dobbs: That was what Norman Mailer used in The Naked and the Dead in the
[29:50] Bob Dobbs: 40s, his first famous novel,
[29:52] Bob Dobbs: instead of fuck,
[29:53] Bob Dobbs: he used F-U-G.
[29:55] Bob Dobbs: Couldn't use F-U-C-K.
[29:56] Bob Dobbs: But I thought it was interesting,
[29:57] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan.
[29:58] Bob Dobbs: He uses it,
[29:59] Bob Dobbs: I think,
[29:59] Bob Dobbs: in the...
[30:00] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[30:00] Bob Dobbs: he's talking about Lewis'
[30:01] Bob Dobbs: American Cosmic Man in 48.
[30:03] Bob Dobbs: And he says,
[30:03] Bob Dobbs: effect nil,
[30:05] Bob Dobbs: or fug,
[30:06] Bob Dobbs: or something.
[30:06] Bob Dobbs: Fug is used in there somewhere as well as...
[30:08] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[30:08] Cameron McEwen: at the end,
[30:09] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[30:10] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[30:11] Bob Dobbs: what is the end?
[30:12] Bob Dobbs: How does it go?
[30:14] Cameron McEwen: Oh,
[30:14] Cameron McEwen: I'm just...
[30:14] Cameron McEwen: I would just say,
[30:16] Cameron McEwen: off the top of my head,
[30:18] Cameron McEwen: it's shortly after he said that it's gone...
[30:22] Cameron McEwen: It's a...
[30:24] Cameron McEwen: H-bomb or an atomic bomb,
[30:26] Cameron McEwen: I can't remember which one.
[30:27] Bob Dobbs: In the desert that nobody heard.
[30:28] Cameron McEwen: Going off,
[30:29] Cameron McEwen: yeah,
[30:30] Cameron McEwen: effect nil.
[30:31] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[30:31] Cameron McEwen: And then at the very end of the letter,
[30:37] Cameron McEwen: what he's talking about is the consciousness of that lack of effect.
[30:41] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[30:42] Cameron McEwen: And then he says that...
[30:47] Bob Dobbs: Something is thug.
[30:49] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[30:50] Cameron McEwen: net thug all.
[30:55] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[30:57] Bob Dobbs: but this cosmic paranoia,
[30:59] Bob Dobbs: this global cynicism,
[31:01] Bob Dobbs: okay,
[31:02] Bob Dobbs: he's talking about indifference.
[31:04] Bob Dobbs: Maybe he's not going to use a psychological condition or a mental attitude because it's beyond that.
[31:11] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[31:11] Bob Dobbs: Kroker is putting it back into anthropomorphic psychology,
[31:15] Bob Dobbs: saying cynical.
[31:17] Bob Dobbs: Probably people would argue about whether it's cynical or not.
[31:21] Cameron McEwen: At that time...
[31:22] Cameron McEwen: And they,
[31:24] Cameron McEwen: starting after
[31:25] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan met Lewis,
[31:26] Cameron McEwen: so 1943 to let's say 1950,
[31:32] Cameron McEwen: he was reading
[31:34] Cameron McEwen: Lewis a lot and he saw that Lewis correctly saw a bunch of problems that
[31:43] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan could also see.
[31:45] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[31:46] Cameron McEwen: But
[31:46] Cameron McEwen: Lewis didn't know how to get out of those problems.
[31:50] Cameron McEwen: And so McLuhan was trying to think about,
[31:53] Cameron McEwen: well,
[31:54] Cameron McEwen: how do we get out of this sort of stuff?
[31:56] Cameron McEwen: But at least in my view,
[31:57] Cameron McEwen: I don't think he solved that problem either.
[32:02] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[32:02] Bob Dobbs: I think Lewis couldn't give up the role of the artist,
[32:06] Bob Dobbs: that Gutenberg leftover,
[32:08] Bob Dobbs: the advanced culture guy.
[32:10] Bob Dobbs: And that was what he thought he was,
[32:12] Bob Dobbs: and he thought he represented that,
[32:13] Bob Dobbs: and the culture was ignoring the real artist.
[32:17] Bob Dobbs: That was his,
[32:18] Bob Dobbs: like...
[32:19] Bob Dobbs: leftover so that he could not get into the total dropping of the art cultural values and seeing the media's art forms that McLuhan gets into by 1955,
[32:32] Bob Dobbs: writing about the environment as the artist.
[32:35] Bob Dobbs: Lewis began the thinking of that.
[32:38] Bob Dobbs: Then McLuhan says,
[32:39] Bob Dobbs: I got it from him,
[32:40] Bob Dobbs: the teaching machine,
[32:41] Bob Dobbs: but Lewis couldn't give up.
[32:43] Bob Dobbs: So he ends up in the 50s writing,
[32:44] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[32:45] Bob Dobbs: the demon of progress in the arts.
[32:47] Bob Dobbs: But the arts didn't matter.
[32:49] Bob Dobbs: There were a subplot for Wall Street.
[32:51] Bob Dobbs: Meanwhile,
[32:52] Bob Dobbs: the real art was television,
[32:54] Bob Dobbs: turning movies into an art form,
[32:56] Bob Dobbs: which is,
[32:56] Bob Dobbs: I was thinking about that the other day.
[32:58] Bob Dobbs: The whole culture of movies or environment of movies becomes the artist,
[33:03] Bob Dobbs: the art form.
[33:05] Bob Dobbs: Nobody could see that that clearly that he could see,
[33:08] Bob Dobbs: because he gave up all delusions or illusions of cultural saviors.
[33:15] Cameron McEwen: This is correct,
[33:15] Cameron McEwen: but I think what...
[33:18] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan didn't give Lewis credit for is that
[33:25] Cameron McEwen: Lewis wasn't necessarily saying that
[33:28] Cameron McEwen: I have the answer in my art.
[33:32] Cameron McEwen: He was saying that there are things,
[33:37] Cameron McEwen: there are blindnesses that we need to offset.
[33:42] Cameron McEwen: And the answer to offsetting those blindnesses is art.
[33:47] Cameron McEwen: So the offset of space,
[33:50] Cameron McEwen: or the offset of time is space.
[33:53] Cameron McEwen: The offset of dissension is ascension,
[33:57] Cameron McEwen: etc.
[33:58] Cameron McEwen: So what Lewis,
[34:01] Cameron McEwen: I think,
[34:02] Cameron McEwen: was trying to do,
[34:04] Cameron McEwen: but as you point out,
[34:06] Cameron McEwen: it wasn't successful.
[34:07] Cameron McEwen: But Lewis was trying to suggest that by continually offsetting our blindnesses,
[34:14] Cameron McEwen: we may be able to achieve a new sort of awareness.
[34:17] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[34:17] Cameron McEwen: that didn't work.
[34:18] Cameron McEwen: So then McLuhan comes along,
[34:20] Cameron McEwen: as you say,
[34:21] Cameron McEwen: and instead of talking about individual or group blindnesses,
[34:26] Cameron McEwen: he starts talking about cosmic environments.
[34:31] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[34:33] Cameron McEwen: The problem is that hasn't worked either,
[34:36] Cameron McEwen: at least yet.
[34:37] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[34:38] Bob Dobbs: So
[34:39] Bob Dobbs: Lewis's great contribution was he forced McLuhan to get to this level that Lewis couldn't get to.
[34:45] Bob Dobbs: Lewis definitely was.
[34:47] Bob Dobbs: close and made McLuhan see that because he read Lewis so closely.
[34:51] Bob Dobbs: So
[34:51] Bob Dobbs: Lewis is naturally credited for getting McLuhan and maybe Innis to where they got.
[34:56] Bob Dobbs: But then they're stuck with this awareness.
[35:03] Bob Dobbs: See,
[35:04] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[35:04] Bob Dobbs: they're stuck with this awareness,
[35:06] Bob Dobbs: and he would oscillate between praying a lot,
[35:11] Bob Dobbs: and
[35:12] Bob Dobbs: I don't think you saw it.
[35:14] Bob Dobbs: I just found out that Scott Taylor died in January.
[35:18] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[35:18] Cameron McEwen: you mentioned that last time.
[35:20] Bob Dobbs: And I told you his secret?
[35:23] Cameron McEwen: No.
[35:24] Bob Dobbs: His secret was,
[35:26] Bob Dobbs: he became very close to McLuhan in the 70s,
[35:29] Bob Dobbs: and I think Scott was...
[35:32] Bob Dobbs: intuitive or psychic or something.
[35:33] Bob Dobbs: He was interested in the psychic.
[35:35] Bob Dobbs: And he brought that out in McLuhan,
[35:37] Bob Dobbs: or McLuhan would talk about his familiarity with that or his own Cosmic Awareness with Scott.
[35:42] Bob Dobbs: So he told Scott that he went to Mass every day to talk to the Virgin Mary,
[35:50] Bob Dobbs: that the Virgin Mary was manifest.
[35:52] Bob Dobbs: He was like self-channeling her.
[35:55] Bob Dobbs: And that was so,
[35:58] Bob Dobbs: Scott doesn't know anybody else he told that to unless Corinne or something.
[36:02] Bob Dobbs: Remember,
[36:02] Bob Dobbs: Corinne's telling me that Marshall's talking to her after he dies,
[36:06] Bob Dobbs: but
[36:09] Bob Dobbs: Scott got that information,
[36:11] Bob Dobbs: and I wouldn't be surprised if McLuhan said,
[36:12] Bob Dobbs: well,
[36:12] Bob Dobbs: I'm going to give everything to somebody.
[36:15] Bob Dobbs: Something here,
[36:16] Bob Dobbs: I'll put Barry,
[36:16] Bob Dobbs: you get that,
[36:17] Bob Dobbs: this guy will get this.
[36:18] Bob Dobbs: So he gave this to Scott for some reason.
[36:21] Bob Dobbs: And it was interesting,
[36:22] Bob Dobbs: when McLuhan died,
[36:23] Bob Dobbs: the first articles were interviews with Scott because he was in the Toronto theatre scene.
[36:30] Bob Dobbs: Young journalists knew him,
[36:31] Bob Dobbs: knew he was involved with McLuhan in some way,
[36:33] Bob Dobbs: and they called him up.
[36:35] Bob Dobbs: And
[36:37] Bob Dobbs: I only knew Scott very slightly,
[36:39] Bob Dobbs: knew of him,
[36:39] Bob Dobbs: and I thought,
[36:40] Bob Dobbs: this is strange that they're calling Edmonton.
[36:42] Bob Dobbs: He's out there with Sheila Watson,
[36:44] Bob Dobbs: who's a big mentor to him.
[36:46] Bob Dobbs: They're calling this guy,
[36:47] Bob Dobbs: young guy,
[36:47] Bob Dobbs: to comment on McLuhan.
[36:49] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[36:50] Bob Dobbs: you had Patrick Watson,
[36:51] Bob Dobbs: everybody else around Toronto who claimed to know him.
[36:54] Bob Dobbs: So I thought it was odd,
[36:55] Bob Dobbs: but there was something that Scott tapped into that...
[36:58] Bob Dobbs: people around McLuhan or saw in Scott.
[37:01] Bob Dobbs: So that was his secret.
[37:03] Bob Dobbs: And he told me,
[37:04] Bob Dobbs: because he would participate in our centenary exploration with iON in 2011,
[37:11] Bob Dobbs: and I would bring in Marshall and Corinne so you could hear them talking through iON.
[37:17] Bob Dobbs: And Scott really enjoyed that.
[37:19] Bob Dobbs: So he participated in the final sessions.
[37:22] Bob Dobbs: But then he personally told me later his secret.
[37:25] Bob Dobbs: And I was not to tell anybody.
[37:27] Bob Dobbs: But I...
[37:28] Bob Dobbs: I posted all about it because he was part of a small email list,
[37:32] Bob Dobbs: me and Neufeld and a bunch of people.
[37:35] Bob Dobbs: And
[37:37] Bob Dobbs: I put him on it three,
[37:38] Bob Dobbs: four years ago,
[37:40] Bob Dobbs: and he never said anything because I knew he was ill.
[37:44] Bob Dobbs: He had some problem.
[37:47] Bob Dobbs: And five or six years ago,
[37:48] Bob Dobbs: he told me he hardly had any energy.
[37:51] Bob Dobbs: But he was limping along,
[37:52] Bob Dobbs: so I included him.
[37:54] Bob Dobbs: in our post so he could see what I was saying because I knew he was interested in what I'm saying.
[37:58] Bob Dobbs: And so I didn't wait for any responses from him.
[38:04] Bob Dobbs: So then
[38:05] Bob Dobbs: I assume his wife,
[38:06] Bob Dobbs: this person,
[38:07] Bob Dobbs: didn't say who they were.
[38:09] Bob Dobbs: Last week they sent a notice,
[38:11] Bob Dobbs: you're sending emails to Scott.
[38:13] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[38:13] Bob Dobbs: he died in January.
[38:15] Bob Dobbs: And so,
[38:16] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[38:16] Bob Dobbs: you don't need to send any more emails.
[38:17] Bob Dobbs: He's not here.
[38:19] Bob Dobbs: So
[38:19] Bob Dobbs: I thanked the person.
[38:20] Bob Dobbs: I didn't know who it was,
[38:21] Bob Dobbs: his wife or whoever.
[38:23] Bob Dobbs: But let me see if I can find what he said.
[38:29] Bob Dobbs: He had in the
[38:30] Bob Dobbs: 80s, he decided that the big syndrome was social autism.
[38:35] Bob Dobbs: You ever read anything by him?
[38:37] Cameron McEwen: No.
[38:37] Bob Dobbs: So he was on to autism.
[38:40] Bob Dobbs: Autism was what the population was adapting to,
[38:44] Bob Dobbs: becoming autistic.
[38:46] Bob Dobbs: So where did I go ahead?
[38:50] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[38:51] Cameron McEwen: autism.
[38:53] Cameron McEwen: on its surface says that it's unable to break out of the circle that we've been talking about.
[38:59] Cameron McEwen: So that image,
[39:00] Cameron McEwen: I think,
[39:01] Cameron McEwen: is a good one.
[39:02] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[39:02] Bob Dobbs: it's more extreme.
[39:03] Bob Dobbs: It's the same lost in yourself,
[39:06] Bob Dobbs: can't get out of the mind,
[39:08] Bob Dobbs: self-awareness,
[39:09] Bob Dobbs: and you become autistic in some way,
[39:12] Bob Dobbs: an exaggeration of it.
[39:13] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[39:14] Bob Dobbs: where,
[39:15] Bob Dobbs: okay,
[39:15] Bob Dobbs: so
[39:17] Bob Dobbs: I want to read what he said.
[39:19] Bob Dobbs: So...
[39:21] Bob Dobbs: You can talk while I look,
[39:23] Bob Dobbs: if you've got an idea or two.
[39:25] Cameron McEwen: Didn't you do a series with Scott about
[39:29] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan's Catholicism?
[39:32] Cameron McEwen: I seem to remember that from years ago.
[39:34] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[39:38] Bob Dobbs: in the iON sessions on the centenary,
[39:41] Bob Dobbs: Scott talked a lot about Marshall's Catholicism.
[39:45] Bob Dobbs: And he would agree with me that he was a different kind of Catholic,
[39:48] Bob Dobbs: especially going to Mass,
[39:49] Bob Dobbs: not for traditional reasons,
[39:51] Bob Dobbs: but to talk to the Virgin Mary,
[39:55] Bob Dobbs: who
[39:56] Bob Dobbs: Scott said was a great scholar in her day.
[40:00] Bob Dobbs: You know?
[40:00] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if you've heard of that.
[40:04] Cameron McEwen: No,
[40:04] Cameron McEwen: I haven't.
[40:07] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[40:07] Bob Dobbs: great scholar.
[40:10] Bob Dobbs: So that's the religion part.
[40:16] Bob Dobbs: We discussed McLuhan's Catholicism with McLuhan through iON,
[40:21] Bob Dobbs: and Scott was part of that.
[40:22] Bob Dobbs: And he had a lot to say because he knew a lot about that part of McLuhan.
[40:28] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan confided in him.
[40:30] Bob Dobbs: So,
[40:30] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[40:31] Bob Dobbs: you're right to remember that.
[40:34] Bob Dobbs: You'd have to go back and listen to the audio of that and see what you hear,
[40:39] Bob Dobbs: what's being said.
[40:42] Cameron McEwen: You know when you're saying that he lived in
[40:46] Cameron McEwen: Edmonton?
[40:48] Bob Dobbs: He came to Toronto in the early 70s and was a student of McLuhan,
[40:53] Bob Dobbs: and he studied theater.
[40:54] Bob Dobbs: He did some theater,
[40:55] Bob Dobbs: cultural stuff.
[40:56] Bob Dobbs: I first heard of him in Nova Scotia in 74.
[40:59] Bob Dobbs: I was listening to an afternoon CBC show.
[41:03] Bob Dobbs: And...
[41:03] Bob Dobbs: Scott Taylor,
[41:05] Bob Dobbs: they said,
[41:05] Bob Dobbs: this student of McLuhan has done a lot of work on Gertrude Stein,
[41:09] Bob Dobbs: and Gertrude Stein,
[41:10] Bob Dobbs: something culturally in Toronto was happening around Stein.
[41:12] Bob Dobbs: And so they brought Scott on as the expert of
[41:15] Bob Dobbs: Gertrude Stein via McLuhan.
[41:18] Bob Dobbs: So he mainly talked about Stein,
[41:20] Bob Dobbs: not McLuhan.
[41:21] Bob Dobbs: But I noted,
[41:21] Bob Dobbs: well,
[41:22] Bob Dobbs: that guy's interesting,
[41:23] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[41:23] Bob Dobbs: so I remembered it.
[41:24] Bob Dobbs: So when I went to Toronto,
[41:27] Bob Dobbs: always at least once a year between 73 and 77,
[41:31] Bob Dobbs: until we moved there in 77,
[41:33] Bob Dobbs: I would look around in the McLuhan scene and try to find out who the Scott Taylor guy was,
[41:38] Bob Dobbs: but he was never around.
[41:40] Bob Dobbs: And then
[41:41] Bob Dobbs: I met him many years later,
[41:44] Bob Dobbs: and I found out that he was very involved in the theater scene of Toronto.
[41:47] Bob Dobbs: That's what he was trying to make it in.
[41:49] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[41:50] Bob Dobbs: he had to go back and do something at Edmonton because Sheila Watson and Wilfred were his mentors,
[41:57] Bob Dobbs: probably in a way more than McLuhan.
[42:00] Bob Dobbs: So he went back there,
[42:01] Bob Dobbs: and while he was there in 19...
[42:02] Bob Dobbs: 1980,
[42:03] Bob Dobbs: at the end of the year,
[42:03] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan died.
[42:05] Bob Dobbs: And all of a sudden,
[42:05] Bob Dobbs: a guy from the boondocks,
[42:07] Bob Dobbs: Edmonton,
[42:08] Bob Dobbs: is explaining McLuhan to the Canadian population in the Globe and Mail,
[42:11] Bob Dobbs: in the Toronto Star,
[42:13] Bob Dobbs: you know?
[42:14] Bob Dobbs: And I remembered the name.
[42:15] Bob Dobbs: I had not met him yet,
[42:16] Bob Dobbs: but I remembered,
[42:17] Bob Dobbs: well,
[42:17] Bob Dobbs: that's interesting.
[42:18] Bob Dobbs: Why?
[42:18] Bob Dobbs: Because I was tuned in to everybody.
[42:20] Bob Dobbs: I was watching all the movements.
[42:21] Bob Dobbs: I made a post about it.
[42:24] Bob Dobbs: I went to almost every seminar from 72 to 79,
[42:28] Bob Dobbs: and I was watching all the interlopers.
[42:32] Bob Dobbs: And nobody knew everybody that was coming as much as I did because I attended much and talked to McLuhan and eventually Eric about it.
[42:40] Bob Dobbs: So I knew everybody.
[42:41] Bob Dobbs: So I knew about Scott.
[42:43] Bob Dobbs: I didn't know he'd be quoted,
[42:45] Bob Dobbs: but eventually I wanted to meet him.
[42:48] Bob Dobbs: He wrote some good stuff about the effect of virtual technology on theater.
[42:52] Bob Dobbs: He wrote a huge chart in a manifesto in the
[42:55] Bob Dobbs: 90s. So somewhere around then I finally met him.
[42:59] Bob Dobbs: So we had some very good talks.
[43:01] Cameron McEwen: And while you were still in Toronto.
[43:06] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[43:07] Bob Dobbs: And maybe once I was in New York,
[43:09] Bob Dobbs: I would be in touch with him by phone.
[43:13] Bob Dobbs: But he he eventually came back to Toronto and it didn't he didn't get any going.
[43:21] Bob Dobbs: But he had he was a part of a science cultural salon.
[43:28] Bob Dobbs: It was a obscure thing,
[43:29] Bob Dobbs: but it had a lot of big names in it.
[43:31] Bob Dobbs: And he was the guy who organized the conference of it for every year.
[43:36] Bob Dobbs: Sort of like the way William M.
[43:37] Bob Dobbs: Thompson organized the Lindisfarne Fellowship meetings every year with these big names.
[43:43] Bob Dobbs: But what Scott did as we got more into videos being available in the late 90s and in the
[43:48] Bob Dobbs: 2000s, he would send out a monthly list of like 50 fucking videos,
[43:54] Bob Dobbs: artist stuff,
[43:55] Bob Dobbs: very obscure but pretty well done.
[43:58] Bob Dobbs: He was monitoring the video art world really closely.
[44:02] Bob Dobbs: So I used to get his monthly email list.
[44:07] Bob Dobbs: And it was just so much,
[44:07] Bob Dobbs: I didn't watch much of it.
[44:09] Bob Dobbs: But that's what he did.
[44:11] Bob Dobbs: He had some public relations for the salon every year.
[44:16] Bob Dobbs: Maybe he was paid to do it.
[44:17] Bob Dobbs: But that was basically what he was doing,
[44:20] Bob Dobbs: was involved with these people.
[44:21] Bob Dobbs: And every year they'd have a big conference and he'd be part of it.
[44:26] Bob Dobbs: I'd have to look it up,
[44:27] Bob Dobbs: what it was,
[44:28] Bob Dobbs: if they're still going.
[44:29] Bob Dobbs: But that's all he was doing in the last 10,
[44:33] Bob Dobbs: 15 years to me,
[44:35] Bob Dobbs: in my understanding of him.
[44:37] Bob Dobbs: But he always liked talking about McLuhan.
[44:39] Bob Dobbs: And he knew a lot about him on the personal level.
[44:43] Bob Dobbs: So he'd often take over the conversation with his stories,
[44:47] Bob Dobbs: which were pretty unique,
[44:48] Bob Dobbs: about his life with McLuhan.
[44:51] Bob Dobbs: And we'd get into the Catholic stuff,
[44:52] Bob Dobbs: too.
[44:54] Bob Dobbs: But,
[44:54] Bob Dobbs: um...
[44:55] Bob Dobbs: Then finally he told me his big secret.
[44:57] Bob Dobbs: So if I could find that.
[45:01] Bob Dobbs: uh thing it's good what he says um let's just see yeah here it is back in 1921 hi cybernauts june 2021 edition and he calls it f scott taylor's low-tech anti-blog blog in search of high-tech art hyphen science f scott taylor's low-tech anti-blog blog in search of high-tech arts art dash science and
[45:27] Bob Dobbs: it would have
[45:28] Bob Dobbs: 50 damn videos a very
[45:31] Bob Dobbs: Maybe I'll send a few to you,
[45:33] Bob Dobbs: show you a sample over the next couple of days or something.
[45:36] Bob Dobbs: So they stopped a year or two ago,
[45:39] Bob Dobbs: and I thought I just wasn't on the list anymore,
[45:42] Bob Dobbs: but only found out that he was getting more and more sick.
[45:46] Bob Dobbs: So I'm going up to see if I can find that email from his wife.
[45:56] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[45:57] Bob Dobbs: if my friend.
[45:58] Bob Dobbs: Yes,
[45:59] Bob Dobbs: okay.
[46:03] Bob Dobbs: So
[46:05] Bob Dobbs: I sent out an email.
[46:07] Bob Dobbs: It was about our new health product where we can fix anything.
[46:13] Bob Dobbs: And I had sent him our photographs of the
[46:18] Bob Dobbs: Georgia Power releasing our technology in a nuclear reactor.
[46:23] Bob Dobbs: And then I say,
[46:26] Bob Dobbs: If my friend Simon waited a few more months and held off having his knees replaced,
[46:31] Bob Dobbs: they would have been fixed,
[46:32] Bob Dobbs: quote,
[46:32] Bob Dobbs: fixed by one of our medical miracles,
[46:34] Bob Dobbs: which we're making at Emory University.
[46:37] Bob Dobbs: So I said,
[46:37] Bob Dobbs: this is another area wherein we will astound the world.
[46:41] Bob Dobbs: We have now created three new amino acids that can be applied to any medical problem.
[46:45] Bob Dobbs: No kidding.
[46:47] Bob Dobbs: The following took place,
[46:48] Bob Dobbs: and I have an excerpt from a show where iON's talking about it.
[46:51] Bob Dobbs: And I say the following took place at Winship Cancer Institute at Emory University in Atlanta,
[46:55] Bob Dobbs: Georgia.
[46:56] Bob Dobbs: So I give the coordinates,
[46:57] Bob Dobbs: the timing of an excerpt from the show.
[47:01] Bob Dobbs: So that went out September
[47:04] Bob Dobbs: 18th.
[47:05] Bob Dobbs: September 18th.
[47:07] Bob Dobbs: A month and a week,
[47:09] Bob Dobbs: five weeks later,
[47:11] Bob Dobbs: someone writes to me,
[47:12] Bob Dobbs: Hi Bob,
[47:13] Bob Dobbs: Scott passed away in January.
[47:15] Bob Dobbs: Please delete him from your email list.
[47:18] Bob Dobbs: Now if it's his wife,
[47:20] Bob Dobbs: She's been reading my crazy stuff,
[47:23] Bob Dobbs: right?
[47:23] Bob Dobbs: I assume.
[47:24] Bob Dobbs: And she just probably said,
[47:25] Bob Dobbs: I've had enough of this guy.
[47:27] Bob Dobbs: He's claiming he can fix every medical problem.
[47:29] Bob Dobbs: I'm getting him out of here.
[47:31] Bob Dobbs: So that's that.
[47:34] Bob Dobbs: So then
[47:35] Bob Dobbs: I looked up
[47:37] Bob Dobbs: Scott's, one of his last statements to me.
[47:41] Bob Dobbs: So let's see if I can find it.
[47:46] Bob Dobbs: Because,
[47:46] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[47:47] Bob Dobbs: Facebook will send you back stuff you posted five years ago.
[47:51] Bob Dobbs: Have you seen that?
[47:52] Bob Dobbs: Are you on Facebook?
[47:54] Cameron McEwen: No.
[47:55] Cameron McEwen: I don't believe in Facebook.
[48:00] Bob Dobbs: So they'll say,
[48:02] Bob Dobbs: seven years ago,
[48:03] Bob Dobbs: you were friends with so-and-so,
[48:04] Bob Dobbs: and they'll have a post or something that you communicated to them.
[48:08] Bob Dobbs: And so they sent a Scott Taylor rant,
[48:12] Bob Dobbs: which was really good,
[48:13] Bob Dobbs: a couple of weeks ago after I got this notice.
[48:17] Bob Dobbs: So if I can find it,
[48:22] Bob Dobbs: then I'll have my stuff.
[48:25] Bob Dobbs: Just a second.
[48:26] Cameron McEwen: And you're looking on Facebook?
[48:29] Bob Dobbs: I'm looking at my email.
[48:30] Bob Dobbs: It became an email.
[48:32] Bob Dobbs: So now I have to go to where I saved it.
[48:35] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[48:36] Bob Dobbs: did I save it in the McLuhan section?
[48:39] Bob Dobbs: Just a second.
[48:40] Bob Dobbs: I'll see if I got that there.
[48:49] Cameron McEwen: Can't you do a universal search of your email?
[48:52] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[48:52] Bob Dobbs: I'll try that.
[48:54] Bob Dobbs: Often I recategorize it and put it in,
[48:57] Bob Dobbs: if it's a McLuhanite.
[48:59] Bob Dobbs: But let's see,
[49:03] Bob Dobbs: Scott Taylor,
[49:04] Bob Dobbs: see what happens.
[49:08] Bob Dobbs: Search all mailboxes.
[49:14] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[49:15] Bob Dobbs: so it would have to come in in 2018.
[49:18] Bob Dobbs: 21,
[49:19] Bob Dobbs: 22 since he died in January.
[49:22] Bob Dobbs: So,
[49:25] Bob Dobbs: no,
[49:25] Bob Dobbs: I just have to find where I isolated it.
[49:30] Bob Dobbs: And so I'm going to go on my Facebook page because I posted it a few days ago.
[49:37] Bob Dobbs: So I just have to scan back and see where it is.
[49:43] Bob Dobbs: It shouldn't be too hard.
[49:45] Bob Dobbs: I don't like wasting time,
[49:46] Bob Dobbs: but it's worth it.
[49:48] Bob Dobbs: when we get to it.
[49:53] Bob Dobbs: So,
[49:53] Bob Dobbs: it's going back.
[50:02] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[50:03] Bob Dobbs: here it is.
[50:04] Bob Dobbs: So,
[50:04] Bob Dobbs: four days ago.
[50:06] Bob Dobbs: So
[50:07] Bob Dobbs: I say,
[50:08] Bob Dobbs: and a couple of people know on the
[50:10] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan list,
[50:12] Bob Dobbs: no
[50:13] Bob Dobbs: Scott, no of them.
[50:14] Bob Dobbs: I said,
[50:15] Bob Dobbs: I just found out that Scott Taylor passed away,
[50:18] Bob Dobbs: passed on in January 2023.
[50:20] Bob Dobbs: He was very close to McLuhan in the 70s,
[50:23] Bob Dobbs: his best student.
[50:24] Bob Dobbs: When McLuhan died on December 31st,
[50:26] Bob Dobbs: 1980,
[50:27] Bob Dobbs: Scott was the person the Globe and Mail and the Toronto Star first interviewed about McLuhan.
[50:31] Bob Dobbs: And I have a hyphen.
[50:32] Bob Dobbs: A few journalists in Toronto knew about Scott.
[50:34] Bob Dobbs: Scott,
[50:34] Bob Dobbs: who was very active in the Toronto theater scene at the time,
[50:37] Bob Dobbs: meaning the
[50:38] Bob Dobbs: 70s.
[50:39] Bob Dobbs: We can now tell,
[50:41] Bob Dobbs: I say,
[50:41] Bob Dobbs: we can now tell everyone what Scott knew.
[50:44] Bob Dobbs: And I have a colon.
[50:45] Bob Dobbs: And I say that McLuhan went to mass every day to channel the Virgin Mary,
[50:51] Bob Dobbs: channel in quotes,
[50:52] Bob Dobbs: who was considered a great scholar of her day.
[50:54] Bob Dobbs: I remember
[50:56] Bob Dobbs: Scott telling me that.
[50:58] Bob Dobbs: Then I say Scott kept that knowledge to himself his whole life.
[51:02] Bob Dobbs: Dot,
[51:02] Bob Dobbs: dot,
[51:02] Bob Dobbs: dot.
[51:03] Bob Dobbs: Until he participated in our centenary sessions with,
[51:06] Bob Dobbs: quote,
[51:06] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan and Corrine,
[51:07] Bob Dobbs: in quotes,
[51:08] Bob Dobbs: via iON in late 2011,
[51:11] Bob Dobbs: dot,
[51:11] Bob Dobbs: dot,
[51:11] Bob Dobbs: dot,
[51:12] Bob Dobbs: and then told me confidentially at that time.
[51:16] Bob Dobbs: Here is Scott on the,
[51:18] Bob Dobbs: so then I give a sample of Scott.
[51:20] Bob Dobbs: Here is Scott on the newly elected Donald Trump in 2016.
[51:24] Bob Dobbs: And so this was his general statement back then,
[51:28] Bob Dobbs: which replied,
[51:30] Bob Dobbs: probably didn't say much more than this.
[51:33] Bob Dobbs: He says,
[51:34] Bob Dobbs: I was sending stuff on Trump,
[51:36] Bob Dobbs: whatever,
[51:37] Bob Dobbs: something.
[51:38] Bob Dobbs: It was probably unique stuff.
[51:39] Bob Dobbs: And he says,
[51:40] Bob Dobbs: thank you so much,
[51:41] Bob Dobbs: Bob,
[51:41] Bob Dobbs: for these postings.
[51:42] Bob Dobbs: Trump has managed to hijack the so-called democratic process in the U.S.
[51:47] Bob Dobbs: and elsewhere,
[51:48] Bob Dobbs: especially given the mortal cough of hackers everywhere.
[51:53] Bob Dobbs: The mortal cough.
[51:54] Bob Dobbs: What the hell is that?
[51:55] Bob Dobbs: Especially given the mortal cough of hackers everywhere.
[51:58] Bob Dobbs: This lowest common denominator is DE.
[52:02] Bob Dobbs: hyphen,
[52:03] Bob Dobbs: not one word.
[52:05] Bob Dobbs: I looked it up,
[52:06] Bob Dobbs: and it has another meaning,
[52:08] Bob Dobbs: maybe baseline or something.
[52:10] Bob Dobbs: This lowest common denominator,
[52:12] Bob Dobbs: this zero-point baseline,
[52:14] Bob Dobbs: has reduced all previously meaningful and intelligible language phenomenology into collective random-access mnemonics minus time-space,
[52:25] Bob Dobbs: and hence minus relevant and relative context.
[52:29] Bob Dobbs: When I first wrote in the
[52:31] Bob Dobbs: 80s about the social autism associated with telecommunications in general,
[52:35] Bob Dobbs: and specifically now with real-time social networking via Facebook et al.,
[52:40] Bob Dobbs: I commented about the rise of rational and irrational anger,
[52:45] Bob Dobbs: hyphen,
[52:45] Bob Dobbs: nay,
[52:46] Bob Dobbs: rage,
[52:47] Bob Dobbs: hyphen,
[52:48] Bob Dobbs: as a central psychological sensation associated with the loss of meaningful value and or transvaluation.
[52:56] Bob Dobbs: In Bettelheim's model of psychological,
[52:58] Bob Dobbs: in brackets,
[52:59] Bob Dobbs: rather than speaking of a genetic locus.
[53:01] Bob Dobbs: And he kind of leaves out a word,
[53:03] Bob Dobbs: but he says,
[53:03] Bob Dobbs: in
[53:04] Bob Dobbs: Bettelheim's model of psychological,
[53:06] Bob Dobbs: or just the psychological,
[53:08] Bob Dobbs: comma,
[53:08] Bob Dobbs: The Empty Fortress,
[53:10] Bob Dobbs: I guess that's a book that Bettelheim did,
[53:13] Bob Dobbs: The Empty Fortress,
[53:14] Bob Dobbs: Bettelheim wrote about the rage demonstrated by the psychophysiological actions of the autistic children he was studying.
[53:21] Bob Dobbs: So,
[53:21] Bob Dobbs: in the panic-panoramic or hysterical,
[53:25] Bob Dobbs: now I think he's quoting my Tiny Note chart.
[53:28] Bob Dobbs: Maybe.
[53:29] Bob Dobbs: What?
[53:30] Cameron McEwen: I said maybe.
[53:31] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[53:31] Bob Dobbs: because he's listing off most of the symptoms.
[53:34] Bob Dobbs: He says,
[53:35] Bob Dobbs: so in the panic-panoramic or hysterical paranoia besetting populations globally.
[53:41] Bob Dobbs: Actually,
[53:42] Bob Dobbs: this is probably what we're looking for.
[53:44] Bob Dobbs: We're looking for McLuhan to say something like this.
[53:46] Bob Dobbs: You call it cosmic paranoia.
[53:48] Bob Dobbs: Kroker called it mass cynicism.
[53:51] Bob Dobbs: He's pointing this out.
[53:53] Bob Dobbs: So in the panic-panoramic or hysterical paranoia besetting populations globally.
[53:58] Bob Dobbs: There's your collective consciousness,
[54:00] Bob Dobbs: collective paranoia.
[54:01] Bob Dobbs: There is quite literally the sundering of character and creed as in an electrical firestorm or empirical chair,
[54:10] Bob Dobbs: including the tearing apart of all figures and all grounds.
[54:15] Bob Dobbs: He said this might be said to be the new ground.
[54:18] Bob Dobbs: Seizure as an unholy running pun throughout.
[54:22] Bob Dobbs: Trump being king electrocratic.
[54:26] Bob Dobbs: Trump being king,
[54:27] Bob Dobbs: electrocratic shit,
[54:29] Bob Dobbs: capital S,
[54:30] Bob Dobbs: and systemic and seismic lord progenitor of current social electrocution or planetary misrule.
[54:37] Bob Dobbs: Then he says,
[54:38] Bob Dobbs: I know you know this,
[54:40] Bob Dobbs: Bob.
[54:41] Bob Dobbs: Just saying.
[54:43] Bob Dobbs: But he knew.
[54:44] Bob Dobbs: I did know.
[54:44] Bob Dobbs: We had talked about this stuff.
[54:46] Bob Dobbs: I might have probably one of the few people in the McLuhan world that he could talk about this autism.
[54:51] Bob Dobbs: So he says,
[54:52] Bob Dobbs: I know you know this.
[54:53] Bob Dobbs: Just saying.
[54:55] Bob Dobbs: Then he says,
[54:56] Bob Dobbs: all the best as slash usual.
[54:58] Bob Dobbs: You're bud and bro.
[55:00] Bob Dobbs: And he calls himself Duns Scotus Dogus,
[55:03] Bob Dobbs: D-A-W-G-U-S,
[55:05] Bob Dobbs: Telematicus,
[55:06] Bob Dobbs: T-E-L-E-M-A-N-I-C-U-S.
[55:09] Bob Dobbs: And
[55:10] Bob Dobbs: I say,
[55:11] Bob Dobbs: so I feature that.
[55:12] Bob Dobbs: Then one of the leaders,
[55:15] Bob Dobbs: the president,
[55:16] Bob Dobbs: head of the media ecology people,
[55:18] Bob Dobbs: a guy named Paolo Granata,
[55:19] Bob Dobbs: I just watched him be so pompous and ridiculous.
[55:23] Bob Dobbs: talking about AI.
[55:25] Bob Dobbs: So I ended the Scott part,
[55:26] Bob Dobbs: and then I said,
[55:28] Bob Dobbs: after having posted Paolo the day before,
[55:30] Bob Dobbs: I said,
[55:30] Bob Dobbs: let's see if Paolo or Granata or any
[55:32] Bob Dobbs: MEA aspirant can ever top that when discussing Trump,
[55:37] Bob Dobbs: let alone today's punk,
[55:38] Bob Dobbs: punk in quotes,
[55:39] Bob Dobbs: AI.
[55:41] Bob Dobbs: So there was my eloquent post to send Scott on his way.
[55:45] Bob Dobbs: But what do you think of what he wrote?
[55:46] Bob Dobbs: It's pretty good.
[55:48] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.
[55:48] Cameron McEwen: And it very much relates to
[55:51] Cameron McEwen: to where we are in your pamphlet.
[55:53] Bob Dobbs: Exactly.
[55:54] Cameron McEwen: Because we started off today talking about this magic circle out of which human awareness cannot jump,
[56:03] Cameron McEwen: or at least it has been able to jump out in individuals,
[56:09] Cameron McEwen: but not for the race,
[56:12] Cameron McEwen: not for the collectivity.
[56:15] Cameron McEwen: So when Scott is writing like that,
[56:20] Cameron McEwen: What he is doing...
[56:21] Cameron McEwen: doing,
[56:22] Cameron McEwen: at least in my understanding of it,
[56:27] Cameron McEwen: is very close to what
[56:30] Cameron McEwen: Kroker was doing in this long quote where we are.
[56:33] Cameron McEwen: That is,
[56:35] Cameron McEwen: he's trying to use language to see if somewhere there's a trap door or some sort of balloon that
[56:49] Cameron McEwen: again.
[56:49] Cameron McEwen: can be used either up or down to get out.
[56:55] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[56:56] Bob Dobbs: exit,
[56:56] Bob Dobbs: get the exit.
[56:58] Cameron McEwen: That's right.
[56:59] Cameron McEwen: And
[57:00] Cameron McEwen: I don't think that either Scott or Kroker found that exit,
[57:07] Cameron McEwen: but their language is very desperate to do so.
[57:11] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[57:12] Bob Dobbs: and they're extreme,
[57:15] Bob Dobbs: and they know it's an extreme situation.
[57:17] Bob Dobbs: you
[57:18] Bob Dobbs: But they know it's futile because in the end he says,
[57:20] Bob Dobbs: just saying.
[57:24] Bob Dobbs: He lays out his statement very articulately.
[57:27] Bob Dobbs: He says,
[57:27] Bob Dobbs: ah,
[57:27] Bob Dobbs: it's just another bunch of bullshit.
[57:29] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[57:29] Bob Dobbs: it doesn't get us anywhere.
[57:33] Bob Dobbs: I like the way he says,
[57:33] Bob Dobbs: I know you know this.
[57:38] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[57:38] Bob Dobbs: like,
[57:38] Bob Dobbs: I mean,
[57:39] Bob Dobbs: I talk about Trump and that.
[57:41] Bob Dobbs: And people say,
[57:41] Bob Dobbs: oh,
[57:41] Bob Dobbs: you're Trump.
[57:43] Bob Dobbs: Scott knew.
[57:45] Bob Dobbs: that I wasn't,
[57:46] Bob Dobbs: quote,
[57:46] Bob Dobbs: Trump,
[57:47] Bob Dobbs: for free,
[57:47] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[57:48] Bob Dobbs: it's the old McLuhan thing.
[57:49] Bob Dobbs: If I talk about something,
[57:50] Bob Dobbs: people think you're for it.
[57:51] Bob Dobbs: No,
[57:51] Bob Dobbs: I'm analyzing the Trump image,
[57:53] Bob Dobbs: the effect of Trump,
[57:54] Bob Dobbs: and he does a good job here,
[57:55] Bob Dobbs: too.
[57:57] Bob Dobbs: And I would say there would be other aspects he'd probably say.
[58:01] Bob Dobbs: He'd be quadrophrenic.
[58:02] Bob Dobbs: He'd have different views of it,
[58:03] Bob Dobbs: but that's his main one.
[58:05] Bob Dobbs: That was his main contribution was the social autism thing,
[58:10] Bob Dobbs: which is pretty good.
[58:11] Bob Dobbs: And so that was his bailiwick.
[58:13] Bob Dobbs: So he would bring it back to that if he was called on to say something.
[58:18] Bob Dobbs: That was what he did.
[58:20] Bob Dobbs: Everybody creates a little pattern.
[58:22] Bob Dobbs: If you're doing your homework,
[58:24] Bob Dobbs: you will discover something that's probably unique,
[58:27] Bob Dobbs: and then you can push that.
[58:30] Bob Dobbs: No one else says what he just said.
[58:32] Bob Dobbs: He developed that.
[58:34] Bob Dobbs: I developed the five bodies.
[58:36] Bob Dobbs: You probably have.
[58:37] Bob Dobbs: What have you developed?
[58:38] Bob Dobbs: The plural.
[58:41] Bob Dobbs: And the genitive,
[58:43] Bob Dobbs: right?
[58:44] Cameron McEwen: Those are two things that I've trademarked.
[58:49] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[58:49] Bob Dobbs: nobody else says that.
[58:51] Bob Dobbs: And so that's what you have,
[58:53] Bob Dobbs: the talking heads world,
[58:55] Bob Dobbs: is that people have some little thing and they put out a book which takes a little bit of originality they came up with.
[59:02] Bob Dobbs: That doesn't solve anything,
[59:03] Bob Dobbs: but they get a book out.
[59:05] Bob Dobbs: And they just go through all the people they're reading.
[59:09] Bob Dobbs: and then point out they're missing their point.
[59:11] Bob Dobbs: It's a tiny little point.
[59:13] Bob Dobbs: And a lot of book publishing or commentary is that.
[59:17] Bob Dobbs: Somebody comes up with a little thing,
[59:18] Bob Dobbs: and they run with it for a couple of years.
[59:19] Bob Dobbs: They might get some money,
[59:20] Bob Dobbs: but then they have to jump off because it didn't lead anywhere.
[59:23] Bob Dobbs: And the next little guy is coming along,
[59:26] Bob Dobbs: right?
[59:26] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[59:27] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.
[59:29] Cameron McEwen: So if you look back at McLuhan that way,
[59:34] Cameron McEwen: there were all sorts of people.
[59:36] Cameron McEwen: You talked about Alan Watts,
[59:38] Cameron McEwen: for example.
[59:39] Cameron McEwen: There were all sorts of people that were writing and having seminars and going around and telling the world their wisdom at the same time.
[59:47] Bob Dobbs: And you know where they gathered?
[59:48] Bob Dobbs: A lot of them gathered at Esalen.
[59:51] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[59:53] Bob Dobbs: exactly.
[59:53] Bob Dobbs: Which he called the new lords.
[59:56] Bob Dobbs: L-O-U-R-D,
[59:56] Bob Dobbs: yes.
[59:57] Bob Dobbs: It was new lords of multi-century involvement,
[1:00:01] Bob Dobbs: you know?
[1:00:01] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:00:02] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[1:00:02] Cameron McEwen: But notice how many of those people now are completely unread.
[1:00:07] Cameron McEwen: And if you happen to see anything from them,
[1:00:11] Cameron McEwen: it's so stale.
[1:00:12] Cameron McEwen: It's so uninteresting.
[1:00:14] Cameron McEwen: You know,
[1:00:14] Cameron McEwen: it's like bread that's been left out for a week or something.
[1:00:19] Cameron McEwen: It's unedible.
[1:00:21] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:00:21] Bob Dobbs: that's why I say McLuhan basically won.
[1:00:26] Bob Dobbs: He's the only one we read today and still puzzle about,
[1:00:29] Bob Dobbs: or new people,
[1:00:30] Bob Dobbs: they look at it.
[1:00:31] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:00:31] Bob Dobbs: this guy,
[1:00:32] Bob Dobbs: he's got a point here,
[1:00:33] Bob Dobbs: and we seem to be living that way.
[1:00:34] Bob Dobbs: He seems to make the short list of,
[1:00:37] Bob Dobbs: I mean,
[1:00:37] Bob Dobbs: Leary doesn't,
[1:00:38] Bob Dobbs: who makes it?
[1:00:39] Bob Dobbs: Nobody.
[1:00:40] Bob Dobbs: Nobody from that era stands out.
[1:00:42] Bob Dobbs: They're not quoting Leary,
[1:00:43] Bob Dobbs: they're not quoting Eldridge Cleaver,
[1:00:45] Bob Dobbs: they're not quoting Kissinger,
[1:00:47] Bob Dobbs: they're not quoting anybody other than McLuhan,
[1:00:50] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:00:50] Bob Dobbs: It's a rearview mirror image,
[1:00:51] Bob Dobbs: but it's the closest they get to what they think the social media problem is.
[1:00:56] Cameron McEwen: But he hasn't been read anything like how he'll be read in the future.
[1:01:04] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:01:05] Cameron McEwen: In the future,
[1:01:06] Cameron McEwen: people will increasingly come to see that the only person seeing what's going on now,
[1:01:13] Cameron McEwen: so
[1:01:14] Cameron McEwen: 40 years after he died,
[1:01:17] Cameron McEwen: is
[1:01:18] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan. So they will.
[1:01:20] Cameron McEwen: continue to read them.
[1:01:22] Cameron McEwen: And then through McLuhan,
[1:01:23] Cameron McEwen: they will see
[1:01:26] Cameron McEwen: Lewis and through Lewis Nietzsche and through Nietzsche,
[1:01:30] Cameron McEwen: Hegel,
[1:01:31] Cameron McEwen: etc.
[1:01:34] Bob Dobbs: I say that we,
[1:01:36] Bob Dobbs: our dialogue is who they'll be listening to to get another view on it.
[1:01:41] Bob Dobbs: We're one of the few people that could qualify for the understanding of McLuhan in 40 years.
[1:01:46] Bob Dobbs: Our stuff is right up there for someone to
[1:01:49] Bob Dobbs: bounce off of,
[1:01:51] Cameron McEwen: you know?
[1:01:51] Cameron McEwen: Correct,
[1:01:52] Cameron McEwen: correct.
[1:01:53] Cameron McEwen: I think that's true,
[1:01:54] Cameron McEwen: but I think it's also true that we ourselves are bound by the same problem that they were trying to get at,
[1:02:12] Cameron McEwen: the same problem that Scott Taylor and
[1:02:15] Cameron McEwen: Kroker are trying to get at in there.
[1:02:17] Cameron McEwen: Good language.
[1:02:18] Bob Dobbs: And my five-bodied language we're trying to get at now.
[1:02:21] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:02:22] Bob Dobbs: You know that me,
[1:02:24] Bob Dobbs: Carolyn,
[1:02:24] Bob Dobbs: and JW,
[1:02:25] Bob Dobbs: the only people were making any progress on stuff.
[1:02:28] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:02:28] Bob Dobbs: nobody knows this progress yet,
[1:02:31] Bob Dobbs: but
[1:02:32] Bob Dobbs: I think we are providing a solution after the Armageddon.
[1:02:38] Bob Dobbs: We will be able to build a new society with our technologies.
[1:02:42] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:02:43] Cameron McEwen: if you guys have found...
[1:02:45] Cameron McEwen: what might be called a practical application,
[1:02:49] Cameron McEwen: or practical applications plural,
[1:02:53] Cameron McEwen: that seems to me to be a good possibility for getting out of this circle.
[1:02:59] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:03:00] Bob Dobbs: ideas don't do it.
[1:03:03] Bob Dobbs: Nothing,
[1:03:03] Bob Dobbs: no communication does it.
[1:03:04] Bob Dobbs: You have to make a new technology,
[1:03:06] Bob Dobbs: a new environment,
[1:03:07] Bob Dobbs: and we've done that medically and energetically with the fusion technology,
[1:03:14] Bob Dobbs: the post-nuclear.
[1:03:15] Bob Dobbs: breakthrough.
[1:03:18] Bob Dobbs: I know how big it is,
[1:03:19] Bob Dobbs: but it's very hard to get anybody else to believe it.
[1:03:23] Bob Dobbs: And you might be more inclined to take it seriously after listening to me for 76 hours,
[1:03:29] Bob Dobbs: well,
[1:03:29] Bob Dobbs: two hours,
[1:03:31] Bob Dobbs: 150 hours.
[1:03:33] Bob Dobbs: You might be open to it.
[1:03:35] Bob Dobbs: But see,
[1:03:35] Bob Dobbs: you're right.
[1:03:36] Bob Dobbs: It has to be something physical.
[1:03:37] Bob Dobbs: We could say a new hardware breakthrough to get out of the software delusion we're in.
[1:03:43] Bob Dobbs: The software...
[1:03:44] Bob Dobbs: rabbit hole,
[1:03:45] Bob Dobbs: just endless software creation.
[1:03:48] Bob Dobbs: And that's not going to work.
[1:03:51] Bob Dobbs: That's not going to get us out of it.
[1:03:53] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:03:53] Cameron McEwen: that's how stupid human beings are.
[1:03:56] Cameron McEwen: Human beings are always talking about how important awareness is,
[1:03:59] Cameron McEwen: but they don't pay any attention to awareness.
[1:04:02] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[1:04:03] Bob Dobbs: Or they get moralistic.
[1:04:04] Bob Dobbs: They talk about how stupid everybody is,
[1:04:05] Bob Dobbs: how corrupt everybody is.
[1:04:07] Bob Dobbs: They're always in an opinionated disgust.
[1:04:11] Bob Dobbs: That postmodern word is resentment.
[1:04:13] Bob Dobbs: You've seen that word?
[1:04:14] Bob Dobbs: Resentiment?
[1:04:16] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:04:16] Bob Dobbs: it's a word Baudrillard and them used.
[1:04:18] Bob Dobbs: It's French.
[1:04:19] Bob Dobbs: R-E-S-S-E-N-T-I-M-E-N-T.
[1:04:21] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:04:23] Cameron McEwen: that's from
[1:04:24] Cameron McEwen: Nietzsche.
[1:04:26] Cameron McEwen: Nietzsche used that word a lot.
[1:04:27] Bob Dobbs: So I said it,
[1:04:29] Bob Dobbs: and you didn't know what I meant,
[1:04:29] Bob Dobbs: but then I said it again,
[1:04:31] Bob Dobbs: and then you knew what I meant.
[1:04:33] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[1:04:34] Cameron McEwen: So,
[1:04:35] Cameron McEwen: for example,
[1:04:35] Cameron McEwen: Lewis talks a lot about how the world has become...
[1:04:42] Cameron McEwen: a sort of a moral campus,
[1:04:47] Cameron McEwen: a moral sphere.
[1:04:48] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:04:50] Cameron McEwen: Nietzsche,
[1:04:53] Cameron McEwen: when he's talking about the genealogy of morals,
[1:04:57] Cameron McEwen: basically says that morality is the exercise of res ontimo.
[1:05:03] Bob Dobbs: Ah,
[1:05:04] Bob Dobbs: and that is the last gasp of visual space or early electric morality or electric opinionating.
[1:05:13] Bob Dobbs: That's another thing is that...
[1:05:17] Bob Dobbs: Not the religious fundamentalists,
[1:05:19] Bob Dobbs: but a big part of the global population knows that talk and morals don't work.
[1:05:27] Bob Dobbs: That's what they're partly sinning about.
[1:05:28] Bob Dobbs: And what Kroker said was the new groping for valuation,
[1:05:32] Bob Dobbs: which is what he says.
[1:05:36] Bob Dobbs: Scott says it's a central psychological sensation associated with the loss of meaningful value and or trans-valuation.
[1:05:45] Bob Dobbs: The creating of values is what the whole market is based on,
[1:05:49] Bob Dobbs: different conceptual themes and ideas and conferences to explain the perceptual collapse.
[1:05:57] Bob Dobbs: People are looking for values,
[1:05:59] Bob Dobbs: and that's not going to work.
[1:06:00] Bob Dobbs: That's why I say our technology works,
[1:06:05] Bob Dobbs: but it does not stop the collision.
[1:06:09] Bob Dobbs: It's thereafter.
[1:06:11] Bob Dobbs: If this were going into a collision right now,
[1:06:15] Bob Dobbs: Within the next three months or something,
[1:06:17] Bob Dobbs: I won't be here.
[1:06:18] Bob Dobbs: I'll be in the bunker until the dust settles.
[1:06:21] Bob Dobbs: Then we come out,
[1:06:23] Bob Dobbs: and a lot of people know about us,
[1:06:24] Bob Dobbs: and there's a lot of people fighting us right now behind the scenes.
[1:06:28] Bob Dobbs: They know what we've got,
[1:06:29] Bob Dobbs: and they don't want that to happen.
[1:06:31] Bob Dobbs: It's almost like they're gangs that are thinking they've got bunkers and places to hide,
[1:06:39] Bob Dobbs: intelligence agency people.
[1:06:40] Bob Dobbs: And they know the collision's coming.
[1:06:43] Bob Dobbs: They want to be there after.
[1:06:45] Bob Dobbs: to tell us which way the second coming went which is an old essay on McLuhan from hot from pro and con in 68 that was the title by a montreal guy neil somebody i think it was him which way did the second coming no which way did the second one go something like that and
[1:07:03] Bob Dobbs: so you got these groups with their little uh billionaires and stockpiling or whatever they got and maybe even some advanced technologies.
[1:07:13] Bob Dobbs: They are sitting there,
[1:07:15] Bob Dobbs: and they want to be the ones to start the recovery,
[1:07:18] Bob Dobbs: the cleaning up after the Armageddon.
[1:07:22] Bob Dobbs: And they know we probably got the best stuff because we got non-physical helping us.
[1:07:28] Bob Dobbs: They don't have non-physical,
[1:07:30] Bob Dobbs: or if they do,
[1:07:30] Bob Dobbs: it's not as good as ours.
[1:07:32] Bob Dobbs: So we are under a lot of attack right now behind the scenes.
[1:07:37] Bob Dobbs: We haven't had a show since September 26th.
[1:07:39] Bob Dobbs: We haven't been able to have one.
[1:07:43] Cameron McEwen: What do you mean by a show?
[1:07:46] Bob Dobbs: We do two radio shows a week.
[1:07:48] Bob Dobbs: We do it with iON,
[1:07:49] Bob Dobbs: two hours on Tuesday and
[1:07:52] Bob Dobbs: 12, and then we put it down to eight hours recently,
[1:07:55] Bob Dobbs: eight-hour show on Saturdays,
[1:07:56] Bob Dobbs: twice a week,
[1:07:57] Bob Dobbs: and we haven't missed it for years.
[1:08:01] Cameron McEwen: And why have you not been able to?
[1:08:05] Bob Dobbs: iON had to go undercover.
[1:08:07] Cameron McEwen: Oh,
[1:08:07] Cameron McEwen: I see.
[1:08:09] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:08:09] Bob Dobbs: basically,
[1:08:09] Bob Dobbs: JW had to.
[1:08:11] Bob Dobbs: I have not.
[1:08:13] Bob Dobbs: seen or talked to JW in six weeks.
[1:08:16] Bob Dobbs: I mean,
[1:08:17] Bob Dobbs: a little bit.
[1:08:19] Bob Dobbs: He gets a...
[1:08:20] Bob Dobbs: Elon Musk gives him a star link,
[1:08:23] Bob Dobbs: and he can call me.
[1:08:25] Bob Dobbs: And we talk for about 15 minutes,
[1:08:27] Bob Dobbs: and that's it.
[1:08:27] Bob Dobbs: He's got to go.
[1:08:29] Bob Dobbs: And so he is doing incredible things way out there where he is.
[1:08:33] Bob Dobbs: Interesting developments,
[1:08:35] Bob Dobbs: but I can't talk about it,
[1:08:36] Bob Dobbs: but it's pretty dramatic.
[1:08:39] Bob Dobbs: And so he...
[1:08:40] Bob Dobbs: Because JW...
[1:08:42] Bob Dobbs: has iron in him,
[1:08:42] Bob Dobbs: he's psychic.
[1:08:43] Bob Dobbs: So he tells me which days
[1:08:45] Bob Dobbs: I can go to the beach.
[1:08:48] Bob Dobbs: Other days I can't.
[1:08:50] Bob Dobbs: And so because I got 11 bodyguards and they have to track me,
[1:08:54] Bob Dobbs: but I had to change my route.
[1:08:57] Bob Dobbs: And just yesterday,
[1:08:59] Bob Dobbs: the main head bodyguard here said,
[1:09:01] Bob Dobbs: I lost,
[1:09:01] Bob Dobbs: he told JW,
[1:09:02] Bob Dobbs: who then told me,
[1:09:03] Bob Dobbs: he can text Carolyn.
[1:09:05] Bob Dobbs: And he said,
[1:09:08] Bob Dobbs: he names the guy,
[1:09:09] Bob Dobbs: he lost Bob yesterday.
[1:09:11] Bob Dobbs: That's because
[1:09:12] Bob Dobbs: I was going along my route,
[1:09:14] Bob Dobbs: and they had a competition in the golf course,
[1:09:17] Bob Dobbs: and the guys came over and said,
[1:09:18] Bob Dobbs: you can't walk on here today.
[1:09:20] Bob Dobbs: So I had to go another route,
[1:09:22] Bob Dobbs: which I'm not supposed to do.
[1:09:23] Bob Dobbs: I'm not supposed to change my route so these guys can track me and be ready to protect me.
[1:09:29] Bob Dobbs: So there's a whole ridiculous drama that,
[1:09:32] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:09:32] Bob Dobbs: I'm telling you.
[1:09:33] Bob Dobbs: I don't even care if anybody hears it because nobody's going to believe it.
[1:09:37] Bob Dobbs: But I'm telling you,
[1:09:39] Bob Dobbs: this is what's going on in my reality.
[1:09:42] Bob Dobbs: And partly why we weren't able to do any shows for...
[1:09:45] Bob Dobbs: a month,
[1:09:46] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:09:46] Bob Dobbs: because they had to deal with communicating with J.W.
[1:09:50] Bob Dobbs: and his situation.
[1:09:51] Bob Dobbs: So it's very dramatic.
[1:09:53] Bob Dobbs: And
[1:09:54] Bob Dobbs: J.W. says there's a bigger battle going on in the United States now than in the Middle East.
[1:09:59] Bob Dobbs: The Middle East is a huge distraction from this fight that's happening on the continent on the levels I'm talking,
[1:10:06] Bob Dobbs: just told you about.
[1:10:07] Bob Dobbs: So I've gradually been telling you about my...
[1:10:09] Cameron McEwen: I think on all levels.
[1:10:11] Bob Dobbs: Beg your pardon?
[1:10:12] Cameron McEwen: I say on all levels.
[1:10:14] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:10:14] Cameron McEwen: I think within...
[1:10:15] Cameron McEwen: the military within the state department uh within the political parties um and they're all entrenched they do not budge right there's no communication there's no negotiation anymore right well they yeah but they're they're entrenched in office all things are divided yeah
[1:10:38] Cameron McEwen: everything the parties the military the education yeah sport yeah everything is divided
[1:10:45] Bob Dobbs: Completely.
[1:10:46] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:10:46] Cameron McEwen: People on each side is characterized by the certainty that the only way to get out of these problems is to do more of what they're doing.
[1:11:01] Bob Dobbs: Never,
[1:11:03] Cameron McEwen: never,
[1:11:03] Cameron McEwen: never less and never what the other side would like to do.
[1:11:08] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[1:11:08] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:11:08] Bob Dobbs: you see,
[1:11:09] Bob Dobbs: that's what I write in my memo to Prince Charles in 1987.
[1:11:12] Bob Dobbs: I call them.
[1:11:13] Bob Dobbs: I say myth is a whole culture in action.
[1:11:15] Bob Dobbs: So the technologies that makes up a culture,
[1:11:18] Bob Dobbs: they're different around the world,
[1:11:22] Bob Dobbs: that is what their cultures have made up.
[1:11:24] Bob Dobbs: Like the Arabs,
[1:11:25] Bob Dobbs: they protect their manuscript.
[1:11:26] Bob Dobbs: They protect their religion,
[1:11:27] Bob Dobbs: which is a manuscript religion.
[1:11:30] Bob Dobbs: And we have our techno religion.
[1:11:33] Bob Dobbs: But each of our cultures,
[1:11:35] Bob Dobbs: what we have and are standing up for and saying is the solution,
[1:11:38] Bob Dobbs: I call a mythic stage.
[1:11:40] Bob Dobbs: Not mythic in the sense of false.
[1:11:42] Bob Dobbs: but mythic as a summation,
[1:11:45] Bob Dobbs: an iconic image of what they think they're defending,
[1:11:48] Bob Dobbs: what technologies they're biased towards,
[1:11:50] Bob Dobbs: what solutions.
[1:11:52] Bob Dobbs: So
[1:11:53] Bob Dobbs: I say we have a battle of mythic stages starting in the
[1:11:58] Bob Dobbs: 90s. I wrote this in 87.
[1:11:59] Bob Dobbs: So I said,
[1:11:59] Bob Dobbs: what's coming?
[1:12:00] Bob Dobbs: We're just starting what they call the culture war.
[1:12:03] Bob Dobbs: I was being more sophisticated.
[1:12:04] Bob Dobbs: I was saying it's a collection of technologies,
[1:12:06] Bob Dobbs: a myth inside the satellite membrane.
[1:12:11] Bob Dobbs: But then we broke out of that with social media into what I call holeopathic retrievals,
[1:12:17] Bob Dobbs: where one person miming the White House has a cult,
[1:12:21] Bob Dobbs: has a nano-community,
[1:12:23] Bob Dobbs: has a blog,
[1:12:24] Bob Dobbs: and gathers all kinds of other bloggers around him.
[1:12:28] Bob Dobbs: The individual is now at the center of everything,
[1:12:32] Bob Dobbs: what
[1:12:34] Bob Dobbs: Don Theall calls the co-anesthetic,
[1:12:36] Bob Dobbs: not the synesthetic,
[1:12:37] Bob Dobbs: the co-anesthetic,
[1:12:38] Bob Dobbs: which means
[1:12:39] Bob Dobbs: more and more technology puts you in the driver's seat.
[1:12:42] Bob Dobbs: And so by the time you got
[1:12:43] Bob Dobbs: Web 2.0 and social media,
[1:12:45] Bob Dobbs: people got their own broadcasting going on through
[1:12:48] Bob Dobbs: Facebook, MySpace,
[1:12:50] Bob Dobbs: YouTube,
[1:12:50] Bob Dobbs: Instagram,
[1:12:51] Bob Dobbs: and all that stuff.
[1:12:52] Bob Dobbs: So
[1:12:53] Bob Dobbs: I predicted that in 87,
[1:12:56] Bob Dobbs: the holeopathic retrievals that will fight each other,
[1:13:00] Bob Dobbs: tiny little enclaves,
[1:13:03] Bob Dobbs: which will the iconic slower media,
[1:13:06] Bob Dobbs: the legacy media shows.
[1:13:08] Bob Dobbs: the TV body shows the mythic stages battle,
[1:13:12] Bob Dobbs: and that's all they can do.
[1:13:13] Bob Dobbs: They can't do anything about the chaos of the chip body.
[1:13:17] Bob Dobbs: Chip body is holeopathic retrievals.
[1:13:19] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:13:19] Bob Dobbs: we're talking about my essay.
[1:13:21] Bob Dobbs: I get into this.
[1:13:21] Bob Dobbs: We're coming into that around the anthropomorphic.
[1:13:24] Bob Dobbs: It's like their answer is their Anthropomorphic Physical stage,
[1:13:27] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:13:28] Bob Dobbs: What they think humans can come up with,
[1:13:30] Bob Dobbs: and they got it,
[1:13:31] Bob Dobbs: and they're up against everybody else.
[1:13:33] Bob Dobbs: But those are institutions.
[1:13:35] Bob Dobbs: You call that legacy institutions.
[1:13:38] Bob Dobbs: You have individuals all over the place with their little cults,
[1:13:42] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:13:44] Bob Dobbs: And they're all scrambling to stay,
[1:13:46] Bob Dobbs: have funds,
[1:13:47] Bob Dobbs: but usually they eventually fail out and gone.
[1:13:50] Bob Dobbs: Like,
[1:13:50] Bob Dobbs: remember the intellectual dark web sponsored by Peter Thiel,
[1:13:58] Bob Dobbs: who's just been found out to be an FBI informant that LaRouche called out 20 years about that guy?
[1:14:03] Bob Dobbs: Do you know who Peter Thiel is?
[1:14:05] Cameron McEwen: I know vaguely.
[1:14:06] Cameron McEwen: I've never read anything by him.
[1:14:08] Cameron McEwen: I pay no attention to him.
[1:14:09] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:14:10] Bob Dobbs: he was part of the creating of
[1:14:12] Bob Dobbs: PayPal, so he got a lot of money,
[1:14:13] Bob Dobbs: and so he's running around trying to create his mythic stage of intellectuals,
[1:14:17] Bob Dobbs: and it was called the Intellectual Dark Web.
[1:14:19] Bob Dobbs: Did you ever hear that?
[1:14:21] Cameron McEwen: Yes,
[1:14:21] Cameron McEwen: sir.
[1:14:22] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[1:14:22] Bob Dobbs: So those guys were,
[1:14:24] Bob Dobbs: that's Jordan Peterson,
[1:14:26] Bob Dobbs: Sam Harris,
[1:14:28] Bob Dobbs: and a bunch of other names,
[1:14:29] Bob Dobbs: the Weinstein brothers,
[1:14:31] Bob Dobbs: a whole bunch of these guys who showed up.
[1:14:34] Bob Dobbs: 2017,
[1:14:35] Bob Dobbs: maybe.
[1:14:36] Bob Dobbs: And they and they kind of gave people stuff to look at while everybody went through the COVID lockdown.
[1:14:42] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[1:14:42] Bob Dobbs: That's when people started watching long
[1:14:44] Bob Dobbs: Jordan Peterson kind of stuff.
[1:14:46] Bob Dobbs: And so there's a whole bunch of them called the intellectual dark web.
[1:14:49] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:14:49] Bob Dobbs: they collapsed a few years ago.
[1:14:51] Bob Dobbs: They're adrift.
[1:14:52] Bob Dobbs: They've lost their iconic status.
[1:14:55] Bob Dobbs: And now somebody's exposing Peter Thiel as an FBI informant.
[1:14:59] Bob Dobbs: And so his image goes down.
[1:15:01] Bob Dobbs: So that was the last.
[1:15:03] Bob Dobbs: That was the art form of the last five years of the holeopathic retrievals,
[1:15:09] Bob Dobbs: these little guys with their little groups,
[1:15:11] Bob Dobbs: and then you have...
[1:15:12] Bob Dobbs: 20 of them together,
[1:15:14] Bob Dobbs: and they call it the intellectual dark web.
[1:15:16] Bob Dobbs: So that's,
[1:15:17] Bob Dobbs: I say,
[1:15:17] Bob Dobbs: that's what
[1:15:18] Bob Dobbs: I predicted.
[1:15:19] Bob Dobbs: I didn't know that's what I meant,
[1:15:21] Bob Dobbs: or I didn't know that's how it came out,
[1:15:22] Bob Dobbs: but I was thinking about it last week.
[1:15:24] Bob Dobbs: I actually predicted with that phrase and what went past the mythic stages.
[1:15:31] Bob Dobbs: See,
[1:15:31] Bob Dobbs: the mythic stage would be the Android meme,
[1:15:34] Bob Dobbs: maybe phase two,
[1:15:35] Bob Dobbs: that we've already done.
[1:15:37] Bob Dobbs: Do you know what I mean?
[1:15:39] Bob Dobbs: I talk about memes in there.
[1:15:40] Cameron McEwen: I'm not sure if I do.
[1:15:42] Bob Dobbs: About 20 pages back,
[1:15:44] Bob Dobbs: I think I do it.
[1:15:46] Cameron McEwen: I just want to point out that you're using your phrase mythic stage.
[1:15:52] Bob Dobbs: I'm using McLuhan's definition of myth,
[1:15:55] Bob Dobbs: but then saying,
[1:15:56] Bob Dobbs: because you know what McLuhan said?
[1:15:58] Bob Dobbs: What was the new stage?
[1:15:59] Bob Dobbs: The credit card.
[1:16:01] Bob Dobbs: And the credit card gave you access to a bunch of technologies.
[1:16:05] Bob Dobbs: Prestige by use,
[1:16:06] Bob Dobbs: he says,
[1:16:07] Bob Dobbs: in the Tetrad,
[1:16:08] Bob Dobbs: I think,
[1:16:08] Bob Dobbs: on it.
[1:16:10] Cameron McEwen: But I just wanted to point out that.
[1:16:12] Cameron McEwen: your use of the word mythic,
[1:16:14] Cameron McEwen: mythic stage,
[1:16:15] Cameron McEwen: is how McLuhan used the concept of myth,
[1:16:21] Cameron McEwen: or his understanding of myth was what you're bringing out.
[1:16:26] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:16:26] Cameron McEwen: But it's also important to see that you're following McLuhan in your use of stage.
[1:16:34] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:16:34] Bob Dobbs: that's the fragmented global theater.
[1:16:37] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:16:38] Cameron McEwen: but what is a stage?
[1:16:39] Cameron McEwen: A stage...
[1:16:41] Cameron McEwen: can be taken to be,
[1:16:42] Cameron McEwen: you know,
[1:16:43] Cameron McEwen: a step.
[1:16:44] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:16:45] Cameron McEwen: A phase.
[1:16:45] Cameron McEwen: You know,
[1:16:45] Cameron McEwen: one stage after another or something.
[1:16:48] Bob Dobbs: Or stages of apprehension.
[1:16:50] Cameron McEwen: Yes.
[1:16:51] Cameron McEwen: But McLuhan always heard theater in the word stage.
[1:16:58] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[1:16:58] Bob Dobbs: That's what I mean.
[1:16:59] Bob Dobbs: So,
[1:17:00] Cameron McEwen: yeah,
[1:17:00] Cameron McEwen: exactly.
[1:17:01] Cameron McEwen: I'm not trying to inform you or contradict you.
[1:17:04] Cameron McEwen: I'm just trying to bring out stuff that you're saying,
[1:17:07] Cameron McEwen: but it may not be obvious.
[1:17:09] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:17:09] Bob Dobbs: to the listener.
[1:17:10] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:17:10] Bob Dobbs: you're explaining what I mean.
[1:17:12] Bob Dobbs: Because mythic stages,
[1:17:14] Bob Dobbs: you have this sort of collective analog global theater slash Global Membrane in the 60s.
[1:17:20] Bob Dobbs: Then the digital breaks it up,
[1:17:22] Bob Dobbs: so it's not one global theater anymore.
[1:17:25] Bob Dobbs: And that's probably what the popular mood was in the 60s.
[1:17:28] Bob Dobbs: Everybody was together,
[1:17:29] Bob Dobbs: and then none of the revolutions worked.
[1:17:31] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:17:31] Bob Dobbs: that's the fragmentation of the global theater into multiple Global Membrane,
[1:17:37] Bob Dobbs: And then the...
[1:17:39] Bob Dobbs: individualization of the co-anesthetic and putting everybody in the driver's seat,
[1:17:44] Bob Dobbs: even your three-year-old daughter,
[1:17:46] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:17:47] Bob Dobbs: So the mythic stages is between global theater and before you get the holeopathic retrievals.
[1:17:56] Bob Dobbs: So that would be the
[1:17:58] Bob Dobbs: 90s, maybe
[1:18:00] Bob Dobbs: Web 1.0,
[1:18:01] Bob Dobbs: before it became the super atomized
[1:18:06] Bob Dobbs: Web 2.0.
[1:18:08] Bob Dobbs: social,
[1:18:08] Bob Dobbs: what they call social media,
[1:18:09] Bob Dobbs: which is a crazy term,
[1:18:11] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:18:12] Bob Dobbs: Social,
[1:18:12] Bob Dobbs: social.
[1:18:14] Bob Dobbs: That's social squared is really maybe what they're talking about.
[1:18:17] Bob Dobbs: Or the machines took over,
[1:18:19] Bob Dobbs: and the machines are the sociality,
[1:18:21] Bob Dobbs: the virtual technologies,
[1:18:22] Bob Dobbs: or mythic stages,
[1:18:24] Bob Dobbs: and then every culture or historical legacy bunch of chemical bodies who have a certain defined history,
[1:18:32] Bob Dobbs: they grab onto a certain part of the mythic stages that they claim they're...
[1:18:37] Cameron McEwen: they're on right so look at uh your phrase they grab on yeah this is this is related to your other phrase about being in the driver's seat yep um the um you can see the great problem here is
[1:18:54] Cameron McEwen: that uh there are right as we speak um individual people in pakistan in india
[1:19:04] Cameron McEwen: In Russia,
[1:19:05] Cameron McEwen: in China,
[1:19:05] Cameron McEwen: in the United States,
[1:19:07] Cameron McEwen: in France,
[1:19:08] Cameron McEwen: in England,
[1:19:09] Cameron McEwen: in
[1:19:10] Cameron McEwen: South America.
[1:19:11] Cameron McEwen: And,
[1:19:12] Cameron McEwen: well,
[1:19:12] Cameron McEwen: I don't know,
[1:19:13] Cameron McEwen: but I mean,
[1:19:13] Cameron McEwen: what I'm talking about are individual people who are the last link in setting off nuclear weapons.
[1:19:29] Cameron McEwen: The great danger of individuals...
[1:19:32] Cameron McEwen: being in the driver's seat is that they don't necessarily want individuals in the driver's seat.
[1:19:39] Cameron McEwen: That's a very scary thing considered in some ways,
[1:19:44] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:19:45] Cameron McEwen: So the whole idea that human beings grab onto things as a way of solution,
[1:19:58] Cameron McEwen: that's actually...
[1:20:00] Cameron McEwen: the metaphysics of Jordan Peterson,
[1:20:02] Cameron McEwen: who is a person who,
[1:20:05] Cameron McEwen: he tries to sell the notion that we're all heroes,
[1:20:10] Cameron McEwen: and the function of the hero is to establish a new order.
[1:20:15] Cameron McEwen: But what he never articulates is that the hero is actually empty.
[1:20:24] Cameron McEwen: How can the hero establish what the hero is?
[1:20:27] Cameron McEwen: How can the hero establish...
[1:20:29] Cameron McEwen: power for the hero.
[1:20:31] Cameron McEwen: It's a vicious circle.
[1:20:32] Cameron McEwen: It can't be done.
[1:20:33] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:20:33] Bob Dobbs: it's an old AAP.
[1:20:35] Bob Dobbs: Old Anthropomorphic Physical.
[1:20:37] Cameron McEwen: That's right.
[1:20:38] Cameron McEwen: That's right.
[1:20:39] Cameron McEwen: So what we have is a situation where people are attempting to run the machine,
[1:20:50] Cameron McEwen: to be in the driver's seat.
[1:20:51] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:20:51] Bob Dobbs: the word that makes the market,
[1:20:53] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:20:53] Bob Dobbs: What I call the White House,
[1:20:54] Bob Dobbs: be the president.
[1:20:56] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:20:57] Cameron McEwen: but the word that makes the market not only comes from an individual or a group of individuals,
[1:21:04] Cameron McEwen: it also has to be understood.
[1:21:05] Cameron McEwen: by an individual or a group of individuals.
[1:21:08] Cameron McEwen: So to have the ability to understand the word that is the market is itself a
[1:21:25] Cameron McEwen: useless gesture.
[1:21:27] Cameron McEwen: It's an understanding that falls through itself because the word that makes the market
[1:21:34] Cameron McEwen: supposedly gives the ability to understand it.
[1:21:40] Cameron McEwen: But of course it doesn't.
[1:21:43] Cameron McEwen: You cannot be given the ability to understand something through your understanding.
[1:21:51] Cameron McEwen: That makes zero sense.
[1:21:53] Cameron McEwen: And that's the cul-de-sac into which we have eventuated.
[1:21:57] Cameron McEwen: But we've eventuated into that cul-de-sac hauling our nuclear weapons with us.
[1:22:04] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[1:22:04] Bob Dobbs: and that happened the last three years.
[1:22:07] Bob Dobbs: The last mythic stage was science,
[1:22:09] Bob Dobbs: and they blew the COVID thing.
[1:22:14] Bob Dobbs: The religion of science,
[1:22:15] Bob Dobbs: the icon of science,
[1:22:16] Bob Dobbs: material progress,
[1:22:18] Bob Dobbs: it failed in the COVID thing,
[1:22:20] Bob Dobbs: and it's still being exposed.
[1:22:23] Bob Dobbs: There's new stuff out about Fauci was doing stuff in 2019,
[1:22:27] Bob Dobbs: very bad,
[1:22:28] Bob Dobbs: out in Montana,
[1:22:29] Bob Dobbs: working with the Chinese virus.
[1:22:31] Bob Dobbs: But the...
[1:22:34] Bob Dobbs: There's nothing now,
[1:22:36] Bob Dobbs: and that's why you've got economic collapse,
[1:22:39] Bob Dobbs: and you're going to have nuclear war or some kind of big explosion.
[1:22:43] Bob Dobbs: That's why they're colliding.
[1:22:44] Bob Dobbs: Nobody has the ability to put on what you've been describing people trying to put on for the last 30 years,
[1:22:52] Bob Dobbs: put on some kind of authority of,
[1:22:54] Bob Dobbs: we've got the way,
[1:22:56] Bob Dobbs: follow us.
[1:22:57] Bob Dobbs: That's all collapse.
[1:22:58] Bob Dobbs: There's nothing on the planet that works for anybody.
[1:23:03] Cameron McEwen: Correct.
[1:23:04] Cameron McEwen: So notice how that relates to what you were saying about
[1:23:08] Cameron McEwen: Marshall going to mass to speak with the Virgin.
[1:23:11] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:23:12] Cameron McEwen: You say there's nothing on the planet that works.
[1:23:15] Cameron McEwen: And so then
[1:23:16] Cameron McEwen: Marshall's answer to that is,
[1:23:17] Cameron McEwen: well,
[1:23:18] Cameron McEwen: I'm going to try to listen to what's not on the planet.
[1:23:21] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:23:22] Bob Dobbs: that's right.
[1:23:23] Bob Dobbs: That's non-physical,
[1:23:26] Bob Dobbs: what I call the non-physical.
[1:23:28] Bob Dobbs: That's what he was asking.
[1:23:29] Bob Dobbs: He was talking to non-physical.
[1:23:32] Bob Dobbs: That's what iON is.
[1:23:39] Bob Dobbs: Does that work for you?
[1:23:42] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:23:43] Cameron McEwen: I understand the gesture.
[1:23:46] Cameron McEwen: I don't know if I personally...
[1:23:49] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:23:49] Bob Dobbs: it's just words.
[1:23:50] Bob Dobbs: But we do have things happening.
[1:23:52] Bob Dobbs: We are stunning medical science with what we're doing medically,
[1:23:57] Bob Dobbs: and we're stunning energy,
[1:24:00] Bob Dobbs: post-nuclear reactors.
[1:24:02] Bob Dobbs: We're stunning the people who have to know this stuff.
[1:24:05] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[1:24:06] Cameron McEwen: So that's why...
[1:24:07] Cameron McEwen: For me,
[1:24:09] Cameron McEwen: it's much more effective to come up with something,
[1:24:12] Cameron McEwen: quote-unquote,
[1:24:13] Cameron McEwen: practical than it is to talk about channeling the Virgin or doing...
[1:24:21] Bob Dobbs: Any form of what I call social mortar or social communication doesn't make it.
[1:24:26] Cameron McEwen: Yep.
[1:24:28] Bob Dobbs: So everybody,
[1:24:29] Bob Dobbs: because it's obsolete in the sense that it's going to be prominent everywhere,
[1:24:33] Bob Dobbs: everybody is...
[1:24:34] Bob Dobbs: trying to get a communicating position,
[1:24:36] Bob Dobbs: and the technology gives everybody that.
[1:24:39] Bob Dobbs: There's so many idiots out there with their little show,
[1:24:42] Bob Dobbs: running around interviewing the latest whoever people out there,
[1:24:45] Bob Dobbs: or some kind of revelation.
[1:24:47] Bob Dobbs: And so many,
[1:24:48] Bob Dobbs: you probably don't look at them,
[1:24:49] Bob Dobbs: but I see them.
[1:24:50] Bob Dobbs: People send links on the show.
[1:24:53] Bob Dobbs: The latest guy that's doing a blog,
[1:24:55] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:24:57] Bob Dobbs: or doing panels and interviewing Jordan Peterson or something.
[1:25:00] Bob Dobbs: There's so many.
[1:25:01] Bob Dobbs: That's what the peasants are doing.
[1:25:04] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[1:25:04] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.
[1:25:05] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.
[1:25:07] Cameron McEwen: It's like
[1:25:08] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan talking about Xerox.
[1:25:10] Cameron McEwen: Everybody becomes their own publisher.
[1:25:12] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:25:12] Bob Dobbs: what is social media?
[1:25:13] Bob Dobbs: Everybody becomes the word that makes the market.
[1:25:16] Bob Dobbs: They're trying to be the center point of pattern recognition and stun everybody with what they can say or who they know or who they have as guests.
[1:25:26] Bob Dobbs: They're creating an inventory of videos.
[1:25:30] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:25:31] Bob Dobbs: of an archive.
[1:25:33] Bob Dobbs: And Kroker talks about,
[1:25:34] Bob Dobbs: Barry talked about the archive as his comprehensivist and how everybody was basically becoming an archive.
[1:25:41] Bob Dobbs: That's a mythic stage on the individual holeopathic level.
[1:25:46] Cameron McEwen: Yep.
[1:25:47] Bob Dobbs: Who you interview,
[1:25:49] Bob Dobbs: who you think is valuable.
[1:25:51] Bob Dobbs: And you get all kinds of people out there.
[1:25:53] Bob Dobbs: They're not very good talkers,
[1:25:55] Bob Dobbs: knowledge,
[1:25:55] Bob Dobbs: but they've got the technology and...
[1:25:58] Bob Dobbs: They're not listening to anybody else.
[1:26:00] Bob Dobbs: They're just finding out who they think is relevant,
[1:26:02] Bob Dobbs: and it would be good for them,
[1:26:04] Bob Dobbs: satellite squared,
[1:26:05] Bob Dobbs: to have on their show,
[1:26:06] Bob Dobbs: and they talk to the guy about the problems of the world,
[1:26:08] Bob Dobbs: for Frank's sake.
[1:26:11] Cameron McEwen: That's right,
[1:26:12] Cameron McEwen: and some do it very well.
[1:26:13] Cameron McEwen: Some do it shitty.
[1:26:15] Cameron McEwen: It's sort of where we're at.
[1:26:20] Cameron McEwen: I think so.
[1:26:27] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[1:26:28] Cameron McEwen: It's everybody in the driver's seat when being in the driver's seat is a problem.
[1:26:36] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:26:37] Cameron McEwen: that's right.
[1:26:37] Cameron McEwen: Everybody's trying to beat the problem.
[1:26:40] Bob Dobbs: They think it's a solution,
[1:26:42] Bob Dobbs: or it looks like a solution in the rearview mirror.
[1:26:46] Bob Dobbs: So,
[1:26:46] Bob Dobbs: again,
[1:26:47] Bob Dobbs: you come back to
[1:26:48] Bob Dobbs: Dobstown, we got the practical stuff.
[1:26:53] Bob Dobbs: I mean,
[1:26:53] Bob Dobbs: we haven't quit.
[1:26:55] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:26:55] Bob Dobbs: our medicine is so powerful,
[1:26:56] Bob Dobbs: the FDA had to stop.
[1:26:57] Bob Dobbs: stop it.
[1:27:00] Bob Dobbs: They had to tell Carolyn,
[1:27:02] Bob Dobbs: you've got some weird product that's healing everybody,
[1:27:06] Bob Dobbs: and you have people on Amazon getting your product and saying,
[1:27:08] Bob Dobbs: you just cured this,
[1:27:09] Bob Dobbs: you just cured that.
[1:27:11] Bob Dobbs: These people are saying you're curing diseases.
[1:27:13] Bob Dobbs: You can't cure diseases with supplements.
[1:27:16] Bob Dobbs: You only do it with drugs.
[1:27:18] Bob Dobbs: And the drugs,
[1:27:19] Bob Dobbs: if they're doing well,
[1:27:21] Bob Dobbs: then you have to have a big study to prove it.
[1:27:23] Bob Dobbs: So you're dealing in the drug world,
[1:27:26] Bob Dobbs: but you're not a drug.
[1:27:27] Bob Dobbs: and you haven't got any proof of it.
[1:27:29] Bob Dobbs: We had a little bit of proof.
[1:27:30] Bob Dobbs: We had a couple of studies in the university.
[1:27:32] Bob Dobbs: But the point is,
[1:27:33] Bob Dobbs: you cannot be part of the dialogue.
[1:27:36] Bob Dobbs: So they wouldn't even let her have the radio show.
[1:27:38] Bob Dobbs: There's people like Mercola and Gary Null and different people.
[1:27:42] Bob Dobbs: They get harassed all the time,
[1:27:44] Bob Dobbs: but they're allowed to keep their show.
[1:27:46] Bob Dobbs: They told Carolyn,
[1:27:47] Bob Dobbs: you can't talk to anybody anymore.
[1:27:49] Bob Dobbs: That's pretty extreme.
[1:27:51] Bob Dobbs: So what she does,
[1:27:52] Bob Dobbs: you can have a membership scenario.
[1:27:55] Bob Dobbs: So people join your thing and they go into this place where you have a show once a week or so and you can say whatever you want because it's membership.
[1:28:04] Bob Dobbs: And you have to sign a form that you won't talk about it when you get out.
[1:28:08] Bob Dobbs: So everybody sneaks into Carolyn's scene to get the solutions and then they call back and say,
[1:28:13] Bob Dobbs: you solved this,
[1:28:14] Bob Dobbs: you solved that.
[1:28:15] Bob Dobbs: It's just incredible what she's doing.
[1:28:18] Bob Dobbs: But it's because we work with non-physical,
[1:28:20] Bob Dobbs: which is helping us have very powerful health.
[1:28:24] Bob Dobbs: regeneration going on.
[1:28:26] Bob Dobbs: And now you've got
[1:28:28] Bob Dobbs: Emory University knows this because they know JW and they see what happened to JW.
[1:28:33] Bob Dobbs: And then you've got Bob doing the technology,
[1:28:35] Bob Dobbs: the energy,
[1:28:36] Bob Dobbs: endless electricity.
[1:28:37] Bob Dobbs: So we are pretty fucking amazing on the planet.
[1:28:40] Bob Dobbs: And everybody knows it of any legacy media clout,
[1:28:44] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:28:45] Bob Dobbs: like the Elon Musk and Warren Buffett.
[1:28:47] Bob Dobbs: They know it.
[1:28:50] Cameron McEwen: Wasn't Emory involved in the
[1:28:53] Cameron McEwen: COVID vaccine problem?
[1:28:57] Cameron McEwen: Seems to me that they were,
[1:29:00] Cameron McEwen: weren't they a key player?
[1:29:02] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:29:02] Bob Dobbs: they are one of the top researchers in medicine.
[1:29:05] Bob Dobbs: They're very big.
[1:29:07] Bob Dobbs: And they've got more money flowing in.
[1:29:09] Bob Dobbs: And now they have us.
[1:29:11] Bob Dobbs: And they're pretty happy about it,
[1:29:14] Bob Dobbs: but they can't explain it.
[1:29:15] Bob Dobbs: It's difficult.
[1:29:16] Bob Dobbs: They can't put it into their mythic stage of scientific language.
[1:29:20] Bob Dobbs: So they're just like.
[1:29:22] Bob Dobbs: A southern company that has the Georgia power that had to make up bullshit about what the reactor was so they wouldn't talk about our stuff and we didn't want them to talk about it.
[1:29:32] Bob Dobbs: We also don't want our medicine talked about yet because people want it right away.
[1:29:38] Bob Dobbs: We want the billion dollar study and that's what's being done.
[1:29:42] Bob Dobbs: That university is doing the billion dollar study for free because they want to have the latest new stuff.
[1:29:49] Bob Dobbs: They think that they can get even more stats,
[1:29:51] Bob Dobbs: but Emory University is very powerful,
[1:29:53] Bob Dobbs: very big,
[1:29:54] Bob Dobbs: and I don't know what they did during COVID,
[1:29:57] Bob Dobbs: but you may have heard something about them because they are one of the top medical creators on the planet.
[1:30:06] Bob Dobbs: They are.
[1:30:08] Bob Dobbs: And it just happened that J.W.
[1:30:09] Bob Dobbs: lives in Atlanta,
[1:30:10] Bob Dobbs: and he knew these guys,
[1:30:11] Bob Dobbs: so they were the perfect people to do it.
[1:30:13] Bob Dobbs: We also have a couple other.
[1:30:15] Bob Dobbs: pretty advanced universities doing stuff.
[1:30:19] Bob Dobbs: So we are in the middle of something.
[1:30:22] Bob Dobbs: And remember what iON said three years ago.
[1:30:25] Bob Dobbs: I asked iON,
[1:30:26] Bob Dobbs: when our Coldplay,
[1:30:27] Bob Dobbs: we call it Coldplay,
[1:30:28] Bob Dobbs: when it starts happening,
[1:30:29] Bob Dobbs: the endless electricity,
[1:30:31] Bob Dobbs: what happens?
[1:30:32] Bob Dobbs: And what's going to be the effect?
[1:30:35] Bob Dobbs: And iON said World War III will break out.
[1:30:38] Bob Dobbs: And that's what happened exactly a year ago when
[1:30:42] Bob Dobbs: Southern Comfort,
[1:30:44] Bob Dobbs: Southern Comfort.
[1:30:45] Bob Dobbs: Southern Company,
[1:30:46] Bob Dobbs: and Georgia Power in particular,
[1:30:49] Bob Dobbs: realized after six years they couldn't make our stuff,
[1:30:52] Bob Dobbs: so they gave up and said,
[1:30:53] Bob Dobbs: we need your stuff because the grid's collapsing.
[1:30:56] Bob Dobbs: We'll do it.
[1:30:57] Bob Dobbs: And they started that in February 2022.
[1:31:01] Bob Dobbs: It took about a year to create the technology they have on display now in Augusta,
[1:31:08] Bob Dobbs: Georgia,
[1:31:08] Bob Dobbs: and that's when the Russia-Ukraine thing started.
[1:31:12] Bob Dobbs: And...
[1:31:13] Bob Dobbs: February 2022.
[1:31:15] Bob Dobbs: So it happened just like iON said,
[1:31:17] Bob Dobbs: right on time.
[1:31:20] Bob Dobbs: So you've got people running around knowing who we are and what we're causing,
[1:31:26] Bob Dobbs: quote,
[1:31:26] Bob Dobbs: causing,
[1:31:27] Bob Dobbs: you know?
[1:31:28] Bob Dobbs: It's the McLuhan point.
[1:31:29] Bob Dobbs: You bring in a new technology,
[1:31:30] Bob Dobbs: a new war breaks out,
[1:31:33] Bob Dobbs: which is just the old technologies jockeying to be around and ride the new environment and keep their status.
[1:31:42] Bob Dobbs: So you have everybody,
[1:31:43] Bob Dobbs: all the institutions all divided,
[1:31:45] Bob Dobbs: all arguing,
[1:31:46] Bob Dobbs: playing the same game.
[1:31:47] Bob Dobbs: They all know everybody's playing the same game to be the one who has the solutions.
[1:31:53] Bob Dobbs: And it doesn't work.
[1:31:54] Bob Dobbs: Can't do it.
[1:31:55] Bob Dobbs: So they all just stay there in a way saving face by carrying on with whatever they're making,
[1:32:02] Bob Dobbs: like Pfizer making ridiculous drugs that are very bad,
[1:32:06] Bob Dobbs: and they pretend they're doing something.
[1:32:08] Bob Dobbs: But they're getting exposed,
[1:32:09] Bob Dobbs: just like universities are getting exposed.
[1:32:11] Bob Dobbs: Everybody is getting exposed.
[1:32:12] Bob Dobbs: Exposed,
[1:32:13] Bob Dobbs: that's the apocalypse.
[1:32:15] Bob Dobbs: Everybody's becoming a huge disservice.
[1:32:17] Bob Dobbs: And the population's sitting there dumbfounded that they can't find any answers in the traditional institutions.
[1:32:23] Bob Dobbs: All the ones you said,
[1:32:24] Bob Dobbs: education,
[1:32:24] Bob Dobbs: military,
[1:32:25] Bob Dobbs: entertainment,
[1:32:26] Bob Dobbs: sports,
[1:32:28] Bob Dobbs: education,
[1:32:29] Bob Dobbs: doesn't work.
[1:32:30] Bob Dobbs: And that's what we're talking about since we began that dilemma.
[1:32:35] Bob Dobbs: We met on that point.
[1:32:37] Bob Dobbs: We could both see that.
[1:32:41] Cameron McEwen: How do you see the relationship between what you're trying to communicate and the bunker?
[1:32:52] Bob Dobbs: The bunker goes when it's a radioactive world and you need to be protected from it.
[1:33:00] Cameron McEwen: But I mean,
[1:33:02] Cameron McEwen: emerging from the bunker is a parallel action to...
[1:33:09] Cameron McEwen: achieving communication.
[1:33:11] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[1:33:11] Bob Dobbs: Now let me tell you something.
[1:33:13] Bob Dobbs: Here's how we communicate.
[1:33:15] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if you saw,
[1:33:17] Bob Dobbs: I probably have brought this up.
[1:33:18] Bob Dobbs: There's something called the monoliths.
[1:33:21] Bob Dobbs: They've been photographed the last couple of years in deserts and that.
[1:33:25] Bob Dobbs: These weird apparatuses just sitting there stuck into the sand.
[1:33:28] Bob Dobbs: Have you seen those?
[1:33:30] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:33:30] Cameron McEwen: I've seen some pictures,
[1:33:31] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[1:33:31] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:33:32] Bob Dobbs: what are those things?
[1:33:33] Cameron McEwen: 2001,
[1:33:34] Cameron McEwen: isn't it?
[1:33:34] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:33:35] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:33:36] Bob Dobbs: no.
[1:33:36] Bob Dobbs: Two years ago they started showing up,
[1:33:38] Bob Dobbs: two or three years ago.
[1:33:38] Bob Dobbs: No,
[1:33:38] Cameron McEwen: but I mean the movie.
[1:33:40] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:33:42] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[1:33:42] Bob Dobbs: right,
[1:33:43] Bob Dobbs: They're like that.
[1:33:44] Bob Dobbs: So we can find out what they are because we've got an eye on it.
[1:33:49] Bob Dobbs: So guess what they are?
[1:33:51] Bob Dobbs: When the EMP happens and all global communications are knocked out from whatever war is going on,
[1:33:59] Bob Dobbs: that will all collapse and there will be no communication except for Bob.
[1:34:04] Bob Dobbs: And Bob will have the monoliths.
[1:34:06] Bob Dobbs: The monoliths are being put there by aliens or somebody.
[1:34:10] Bob Dobbs: We don't know,
[1:34:11] Bob Dobbs: but we're in touch with them.
[1:34:13] Bob Dobbs: And they're building the structure that we're going to communicate on.
[1:34:16] Bob Dobbs: So
[1:34:17] Bob Dobbs: I'll get on there.
[1:34:17] Bob Dobbs: I'll be the only voice there.
[1:34:20] Bob Dobbs: And I'll just play our fucking shows.
[1:34:22] Bob Dobbs: Why should I put much effort into it?
[1:34:24] Bob Dobbs: I'll just play our show.
[1:34:25] Bob Dobbs: Here it is.
[1:34:25] Bob Dobbs: Just listen to these two guys talking.
[1:34:27] Bob Dobbs: They'll tell you what's happening.
[1:34:31] Cameron McEwen: I had the idea that those monoliths were...
[1:34:35] Cameron McEwen: there for a day or two or a week and then we're gone.
[1:34:40] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:34:40] Bob Dobbs: that's right.
[1:34:41] Bob Dobbs: And then they'd show up somewhere else.
[1:34:43] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:34:43] Bob Dobbs: they were being gathered by our buddies.
[1:34:47] Cameron McEwen: So these are like the crop figures,
[1:34:51] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:34:51] Cameron McEwen: I don't know what the word is.
[1:34:53] Bob Dobbs: They're alien structures.
[1:34:55] Bob Dobbs: Nobody knows what they are.
[1:34:56] Bob Dobbs: They're just there and they don't know what they're for.
[1:35:00] Bob Dobbs: We're the only ones who have something called an iON that explains to us it.
[1:35:04] Bob Dobbs: and then talks about how we have them.
[1:35:06] Bob Dobbs: And then,
[1:35:07] Bob Dobbs: he didn't tell me right away,
[1:35:08] Bob Dobbs: he tells,
[1:35:09] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:35:09] Bob Dobbs: a year or so into the topic,
[1:35:11] Bob Dobbs: he says,
[1:35:11] Bob Dobbs: by the way,
[1:35:11] Bob Dobbs: Bob,
[1:35:12] Bob Dobbs: that's what you're going to broadcast on.
[1:35:14] Bob Dobbs: Because if there's ENP,
[1:35:15] Bob Dobbs: how do we announce all that we have to build a new civilization,
[1:35:18] Bob Dobbs: which was your question.
[1:35:19] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:35:20] Bob Dobbs: there's your answer.
[1:35:20] Bob Dobbs: We got the monoliths.
[1:35:23] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:35:24] Bob Dobbs: there are people going to listen to this,
[1:35:26] Bob Dobbs: people that aren't our friends,
[1:35:28] Bob Dobbs: and they're going to go,
[1:35:29] Bob Dobbs: wow,
[1:35:29] Bob Dobbs: but I've said it before on the show,
[1:35:31] Bob Dobbs: so they might have heard it,
[1:35:33] Bob Dobbs: but this is pretty crazy stuff,
[1:35:35] Bob Dobbs: what I'm saying is total megalomania from a normal perception,
[1:35:40] Bob Dobbs: but I don't have a problem saying it because I know what we got.
[1:35:44] Bob Dobbs: So I'm operating from a very confident level.
[1:35:52] Cameron McEwen: Well.
[1:35:53] Bob Dobbs: And you're stuck here with the maniac.
[1:35:59] Bob Dobbs: You're the roommate of the maniac.
[1:36:01] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:36:01] Cameron McEwen: I can help you articulate the problem.
[1:36:05] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:36:05] Bob Dobbs: I think that's what we're doing.
[1:36:06] Cameron McEwen: Exactly.
[1:36:08] Cameron McEwen: But I can also say that if it's possible on any one of the areas that you're talking about,
[1:36:19] Cameron McEwen: the energy or medicine.
[1:36:23] Cameron McEwen: or international affairs in any one of these areas.
[1:36:28] Cameron McEwen: If a practical effect can be shown,
[1:36:32] Cameron McEwen: that would be a key to establishing what needs to be established.
[1:36:37] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:36:38] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:36:38] Bob Dobbs: I think we're doing that.
[1:36:39] Bob Dobbs: It's interesting that,
[1:36:41] Bob Dobbs: see,
[1:36:42] Bob Dobbs: J.W.
[1:36:42] Bob Dobbs: goes into other dimensions,
[1:36:44] Bob Dobbs: being part of the iON phenomenon.
[1:36:46] Bob Dobbs: And I don't know if I mentioned this to you,
[1:36:48] Bob Dobbs: but about a month ago he said he went somewheres.
[1:36:52] Bob Dobbs: He gets tossed all over the place because ions around him.
[1:36:56] Bob Dobbs: And he has a personality or a mind that accepts anything.
[1:36:59] Bob Dobbs: So wherever he goes,
[1:37:01] Bob Dobbs: he accepts it.
[1:37:01] Bob Dobbs: So he went to a place where there were these purple entities,
[1:37:05] Bob Dobbs: he said.
[1:37:06] Bob Dobbs: He didn't know what they were,
[1:37:08] Bob Dobbs: what they were.
[1:37:09] Bob Dobbs: Were they aliens or something?
[1:37:10] Bob Dobbs: He didn't know.
[1:37:11] Bob Dobbs: But here's what they said.
[1:37:13] Bob Dobbs: The first thing they said,
[1:37:16] Bob Dobbs: it's amazing how Bob got to where he is without lifting one finger.
[1:37:22] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:37:23] Bob Dobbs: so these weirdos say they talk about me to JW.
[1:37:28] Bob Dobbs: And then there's a pause,
[1:37:29] Bob Dobbs: and they go,
[1:37:30] Bob Dobbs: now that's slack.
[1:37:33] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:37:33] Bob Dobbs: I bring this up,
[1:37:34] Bob Dobbs: so that makes me and JW laugh our heads off at that,
[1:37:36] Bob Dobbs: because that's the church SubGenius,
[1:37:38] Bob Dobbs: which I'm a figurehead for,
[1:37:40] Bob Dobbs: for slack.
[1:37:41] Bob Dobbs: But these entities said that.
[1:37:43] Bob Dobbs: He did it without lifting one finger,
[1:37:45] Bob Dobbs: which was probably necessary to do what I did the last 30 years.
[1:37:48] Bob Dobbs: I had to have the slack to be noticing,
[1:37:50] Bob Dobbs: keeping up on things,
[1:37:52] Bob Dobbs: and reading the correct stuff to read,
[1:37:54] Bob Dobbs: like McLuhan and Finnegans Wake.
[1:37:57] Bob Dobbs: So this is an answer.
[1:38:00] Cameron McEwen: Because being in the driver's seat is the problem,
[1:38:07] Cameron McEwen: not the solution.
[1:38:09] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:38:09] Bob Dobbs: so they put me in the driver's seat and I don't do nothing.
[1:38:12] Cameron McEwen: That's right.
[1:38:13] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:38:14] Cameron McEwen: slack is not being in the driver's seat.
[1:38:17] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[1:38:17] Cameron McEwen: Or at least not using it.
[1:38:19] Bob Dobbs: Not being used by it.
[1:38:20] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:38:20] Bob Dobbs: the used is the content now.
[1:38:23] Bob Dobbs: The used,
[1:38:24] Bob Dobbs: not the user.
[1:38:25] Bob Dobbs: So here's what I was trying to answer.
[1:38:28] Bob Dobbs: It slipped away again.
[1:38:32] Bob Dobbs: Oh,
[1:38:33] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[1:38:33] Bob Dobbs: So,
[1:38:34] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:38:34] Bob Dobbs: two,
[1:38:35] Bob Dobbs: three years ago,
[1:38:36] Bob Dobbs: you email me and say,
[1:38:38] Bob Dobbs: Bob,
[1:38:38] Bob Dobbs: we should talk.
[1:38:39] Bob Dobbs: I figured out what the difference is,
[1:38:41] Bob Dobbs: macro and micro.
[1:38:43] Bob Dobbs: I said,
[1:38:43] Bob Dobbs: sure.
[1:38:44] Bob Dobbs: And then it turned out to be very helpful.
[1:38:46] Bob Dobbs: We've been doing it almost three years,
[1:38:47] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:38:48] Bob Dobbs: Two and a half years?
[1:38:51] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:38:51] Bob Dobbs: 77 shows.
[1:38:54] Bob Dobbs: And we started just talking.
[1:38:56] Bob Dobbs: And
[1:38:57] Bob Dobbs: I dumped my latest manifesto,
[1:38:59] Bob Dobbs: which has a lot of iON in mind with my new manifesto,
[1:39:02] Bob Dobbs: so therefore nobody can understand it.
[1:39:04] Bob Dobbs: But in the course of talking to you,
[1:39:07] Bob Dobbs: I got to spell everything out.
[1:39:10] Bob Dobbs: So to the degree you're contributing how to talk about these things,
[1:39:15] Bob Dobbs: That happened.
[1:39:16] Bob Dobbs: So you showed up at the right time.
[1:39:19] Bob Dobbs: That's the slack,
[1:39:20] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:39:20] Bob Dobbs: I didn't ask you to talk.
[1:39:22] Bob Dobbs: You just said,
[1:39:23] Bob Dobbs: hey,
[1:39:24] Bob Dobbs: there's something here we need to work out.
[1:39:26] Bob Dobbs: So that's what we've been doing.
[1:39:27] Bob Dobbs: So we've created these great dialogues.
[1:39:29] Bob Dobbs: And the people who listen to them really like them.
[1:39:33] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:39:34] Cameron McEwen: I'm glad to hear that.
[1:39:36] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:39:36] Bob Dobbs: no,
[1:39:36] Cameron McEwen: it's good.
[1:39:37] Cameron McEwen: Certainly,
[1:39:38] Cameron McEwen: that's how I see my role.
[1:39:39] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:39:41] Cameron McEwen: Trying to interrogate what you're talking about.
[1:39:45] Cameron McEwen: hope that that can open a space for people.
[1:39:51] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:39:51] Bob Dobbs: to be able to think and talk and utter.
[1:39:55] Bob Dobbs: So what you did,
[1:39:56] Bob Dobbs: you laid low in your hermeticism and your being a hermit and you saw all the different angles and how philosophy,
[1:40:06] Bob Dobbs: Nietzsche,
[1:40:07] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan applied,
[1:40:09] Bob Dobbs: which is exactly what I had done.
[1:40:10] Bob Dobbs: I call that quadrophrenia.
[1:40:11] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:40:12] Bob Dobbs: you could see all the different positions that a mind can do.
[1:40:16] Bob Dobbs: And then you have to work from there to see what you can articulate past that.
[1:40:20] Bob Dobbs: And that's what we've been trying to do.
[1:40:23] Cameron McEwen: Yes,
[1:40:24] Cameron McEwen: I agree with that completely.
[1:40:25] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:40:26] Cameron McEwen: In fact,
[1:40:27] Cameron McEwen: I see
[1:40:28] Cameron McEwen: Nietzsche and Lewis both having that same goal.
[1:40:33] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:40:35] Cameron McEwen: And then when I read the two of them,
[1:40:39] Cameron McEwen: I try to ask myself,
[1:40:41] Cameron McEwen: well,
[1:40:44] Cameron McEwen: what do they not think of?
[1:40:45] Cameron McEwen: What do they not see?
[1:40:47] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[1:40:49] Cameron McEwen: Because that could be a way out of the...
[1:40:53] Cameron McEwen: the circle that we're talking about.
[1:40:55] Bob Dobbs: They probably didn't see the practical answer,
[1:40:58] Bob Dobbs: which you've been saying,
[1:40:59] Bob Dobbs: which I claim I've come up with.
[1:41:01] Bob Dobbs: They didn't see that,
[1:41:03] Bob Dobbs: because those ones that do talk about,
[1:41:05] Bob Dobbs: the scientists who talk about free energy or something,
[1:41:07] Bob Dobbs: it's really limited how they talk about it.
[1:41:10] Bob Dobbs: They don't see the unforeseen effects of it.
[1:41:13] Bob Dobbs: They don't have the McLuhan angle on it.
[1:41:14] Bob Dobbs: They just are blindly saying,
[1:41:15] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[1:41:15] Bob Dobbs: we're going to get somewhere that will be better and improve things.
[1:41:19] Bob Dobbs: We're going to have better genetics.
[1:41:21] Bob Dobbs: That naivety.
[1:41:23] Bob Dobbs: And of course,
[1:41:23] Bob Dobbs: a lot of people don't follow,
[1:41:25] Bob Dobbs: don't believe that anymore.
[1:41:26] Bob Dobbs: So anybody who's got a traditional old institutional solution don't know how to talk about it and make it interesting.
[1:41:35] Bob Dobbs: They can't bypass the cynicism.
[1:41:38] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[1:41:38] Cameron McEwen: They're trying to exercise the position of being in the driver's seat.
[1:41:43] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:41:44] Bob Dobbs: Having the authority of knowledge,
[1:41:45] Bob Dobbs: as McLuhan called it.
[1:41:49] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[1:41:49] Cameron McEwen: What did you say he called it?
[1:41:51] Bob Dobbs: The authority of knowledge.
[1:41:52] Bob Dobbs: The authority of the latest knowledge that's necessary due to increasing weird synergistic effects that happen,
[1:41:58] Bob Dobbs: you know?
[1:42:00] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:42:01] Cameron McEwen: I don't know if you know,
[1:42:02] Cameron McEwen: but the motto you could say for my blog is only the authority of knowledge.
[1:42:11] Bob Dobbs: I didn't know that.
[1:42:12] Bob Dobbs: You say,
[1:42:12] Bob Dobbs: quote,
[1:42:13] Bob Dobbs: only the authority of knowledge?
[1:42:14] Bob Dobbs: Do you say who says it,
[1:42:16] Bob Dobbs: or you're saying it?
[1:42:17] Cameron McEwen: That's McLuhan.
[1:42:19] Bob Dobbs: He said that.
[1:42:19] Bob Dobbs: Only the authority of knowledge.
[1:42:21] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[1:42:21] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:42:22] Bob Dobbs: so there I am.
[1:42:22] Bob Dobbs: We're totally in tune all the time because we got to the same point of a complete understanding or
[1:42:31] Bob Dobbs: X-raying of what McLuhan was about because we had all these years to think about it.
[1:42:34] Bob Dobbs: And we were doing our homework.
[1:42:37] Bob Dobbs: I mean,
[1:42:37] Bob Dobbs: you're getting articles like I did,
[1:42:39] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:42:40] Bob Dobbs: from the archives.
[1:42:42] Bob Dobbs: You're doing even more than me now because
[1:42:45] Bob Dobbs: I'm actually moving forward with,
[1:42:47] Bob Dobbs: quote,
[1:42:48] Bob Dobbs: the solution,
[1:42:49] Bob Dobbs: you know.
[1:42:50] Bob Dobbs: You don't have that.
[1:42:51] Bob Dobbs: I do.
[1:42:52] Bob Dobbs: And so
[1:42:53] Bob Dobbs: I enjoy hearing the latest McLuhan stuff,
[1:42:56] Bob Dobbs: but it's always just bringing me up to the point that I figured that I slack-wise got past by coming up with something,
[1:43:04] Bob Dobbs: some practical hardware solutions,
[1:43:08] Bob Dobbs: and whatever you would call medicine.
[1:43:09] Bob Dobbs: That might be software.
[1:43:13] Bob Dobbs: I mean,
[1:43:13] Bob Dobbs: we've got three new amino acids.
[1:43:15] Bob Dobbs: Is that software?
[1:43:17] Bob Dobbs: Sort of inside,
[1:43:18] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:43:19] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:43:20] Cameron McEwen: it's software and hardware.
[1:43:22] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:43:23] Bob Dobbs: So you were going to say something.
[1:43:25] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:43:25] Cameron McEwen: I was going to say that sort of the byline of my blog is McLuhan's New Sciences colon,
[1:43:35] Cameron McEwen: quotation mark,
[1:43:36] Cameron McEwen: only the authority of knowledge.
[1:43:38] Cameron McEwen: Wow,
[1:43:38] Bob Dobbs: I've never noticed that.
[1:43:41] Cameron McEwen: But then I have two quotes.
[1:43:44] Cameron McEwen: One is from Technology,
[1:43:45] Cameron McEwen: Media,
[1:43:45] Cameron McEwen: and Culture from 1960.
[1:43:48] Cameron McEwen: It is no longer feasible in decision-making to exercise delegated authority,
[1:43:54] Cameron McEwen: but only the authority of knowledge.
[1:43:56] Bob Dobbs: Aha,
[1:43:57] Bob Dobbs: you give the source.
[1:43:57] Bob Dobbs: And then,
[1:43:58] Cameron McEwen: same year,
[1:43:59] Cameron McEwen: effects of improvements of communication media,
[1:44:03] Cameron McEwen: telephone in hand,
[1:44:04] Cameron McEwen: the decision-maker can exercise only the authority of knowledge,
[1:44:09] Cameron McEwen: not delegated authority.
[1:44:11] Bob Dobbs: So it's two different articles saying the same thing?
[1:44:15] Cameron McEwen: Yes,
[1:44:15] Cameron McEwen: and both from 1960.
[1:44:17] Bob Dobbs: Which is where my chart begins.
[1:44:21] Bob Dobbs: I begin,
[1:44:22] Bob Dobbs: it's,
[1:44:22] Bob Dobbs: the chart is 60 to 90.
[1:44:25] Bob Dobbs: The growing of the Android Meme is hidden ground.
[1:44:27] Bob Dobbs: And then the 90s is the manifestation of the Android Meme called the internet or social media.
[1:44:35] Bob Dobbs: Now we've reached,
[1:44:35] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:44:36] Bob Dobbs: and that became psychopathic,
[1:44:38] Bob Dobbs: which I call the tech body.
[1:44:39] Bob Dobbs: iON calls it the tech body.
[1:44:45] Bob Dobbs: That it's like a holeopathic retrieval.
[1:44:48] Bob Dobbs: No,
[1:44:48] Bob Dobbs: it's past the holeopathic retrieval.
[1:44:51] Bob Dobbs: It is,
[1:44:53] Bob Dobbs: in a sense,
[1:44:54] Bob Dobbs: it's post-human,
[1:44:55] Bob Dobbs: where the technology itself catches up to the holeopathic liberation that happened to individual nano-communities,
[1:45:05] Bob Dobbs: nano-individuals.
[1:45:07] Bob Dobbs: Like,
[1:45:07] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:45:08] Bob Dobbs: the intellectual dark web died because they're up against the tech body.
[1:45:12] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:45:12] Bob Dobbs: we've had a battle ourselves.
[1:45:14] Bob Dobbs: Between iON and the tech body,
[1:45:16] Bob Dobbs: which is documented,
[1:45:17] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:45:17] Bob Dobbs: through the shows the last three or four years,
[1:45:20] Bob Dobbs: that's incredible.
[1:45:21] Bob Dobbs: Nobody would know what we're talking about.
[1:45:23] Bob Dobbs: They have to say,
[1:45:23] Bob Dobbs: well,
[1:45:23] Bob Dobbs: what is iON?
[1:45:24] Bob Dobbs: And he's up against the tech body?
[1:45:27] Bob Dobbs: That's a very interesting battle that's going on.
[1:45:29] Bob Dobbs: And it's way beyond the chemical body reality of people,
[1:45:33] Bob Dobbs: right?
[1:45:34] Bob Dobbs: Maybe even beyond the chip body.
[1:45:38] Bob Dobbs: iON calls it the mystery body.
[1:45:39] Bob Dobbs: So we've got a mystery body landscape battle moving into a sixth level called the hexadic.
[1:45:47] Bob Dobbs: Not the tetrad or pentadic,
[1:45:48] Bob Dobbs: but the hexadic is what my chart says in 95.
[1:45:52] Bob Dobbs: That's where we're heading.
[1:45:53] Bob Dobbs: And now we are,
[1:45:54] Bob Dobbs: iON says,
[1:45:55] Bob Dobbs: they announce that they are,
[1:45:58] Bob Dobbs: well,
[1:45:58] Bob Dobbs: it took them many years before they started using my language because they had to.
[1:46:02] Bob Dobbs: educators and all this other preliminary stuff,
[1:46:04] Bob Dobbs: but eventually they said,
[1:46:05] Bob Dobbs: we're the hexadic level,
[1:46:07] Bob Dobbs: Bob,
[1:46:07] Bob Dobbs: that your chart predicted,
[1:46:10] Bob Dobbs: which is pretty amazing.
[1:46:11] Bob Dobbs: They had this voice show up and tell me,
[1:46:12] Bob Dobbs: hey,
[1:46:13] Bob Dobbs: you're right on point,
[1:46:15] Bob Dobbs: Bob,
[1:46:15] Bob Dobbs: and your chart's in the Bible.
[1:46:20] Cameron McEwen: So can we say the five bodies are ultimately taken over by technology?
[1:46:30] Cameron McEwen: Yes,
[1:46:31] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[1:46:32] Bob Dobbs: By a weird technology that has got a bit of the non-physical or something in it.
[1:46:39] Bob Dobbs: It's not our normal technology.
[1:46:40] Bob Dobbs: So when the guys who did The Social Dilemma,
[1:46:45] Bob Dobbs: then they come out with the,
[1:46:47] Bob Dobbs: well,
[1:46:47] Bob Dobbs: maybe The Social Dilemma is their second movie.
[1:46:50] Bob Dobbs: They did
[1:46:51] Bob Dobbs: The Internet Dilemma or something,
[1:46:53] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:46:53] Bob Dobbs: those guys that made that documentary,
[1:46:55] Bob Dobbs: and then they did one on social media.
[1:46:57] Bob Dobbs: And then you have people the past year saying,
[1:46:59] Bob Dobbs: Artificial intelligence is escalating itself.
[1:47:02] Bob Dobbs: It's going way beyond what we can know.
[1:47:04] Bob Dobbs: It's beyond our kin.
[1:47:07] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:47:08] Bob Dobbs: they're describing the tech body in limited terms,
[1:47:11] Bob Dobbs: which iON talked about four years ago.
[1:47:16] Bob Dobbs: And what they're not including is the angelic and the alien civilizations.
[1:47:23] Bob Dobbs: They're all here.
[1:47:24] Bob Dobbs: In the Bible,
[1:47:25] Bob Dobbs: they talk about the war in heaven.
[1:47:27] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:47:27] Bob Dobbs: we're now on the...
[1:47:28] Bob Dobbs: verge of the war in heaven here when the huge,
[1:47:34] Bob Dobbs: whatever they are,
[1:47:35] Bob Dobbs: alien civilization comes to knock out the aliens that took over the Pentagon the last few years.
[1:47:42] Cameron McEwen: Notice how
[1:47:43] Cameron McEwen: Pentagon and Five Bodies...
[1:47:51] Cameron McEwen: Am I right to understand that the
[1:47:55] Cameron McEwen: Sixth Body um
[1:47:58] Bob Dobbs: It's outside of the Pentagon.
[1:48:01] Cameron McEwen: Exactly.
[1:48:02] Cameron McEwen: So when you're talking about aliens and when you're talking about some knowledge or force coming from the outside,
[1:48:12] Cameron McEwen: that's to say that the sixth body is defined by its ability to understand the five bodies.
[1:48:28] Cameron McEwen: to understand them outside of them,
[1:48:34] Cameron McEwen: to re-establish,
[1:48:35] Cameron McEwen: you could say.
[1:48:36] Cameron McEwen: All of the five bodies are establishments.
[1:48:40] Cameron McEwen: They're ground.
[1:48:44] Cameron McEwen: They're a huge danger in the same way as fission and fusion are huge dangers because they are the…
[1:48:52] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:48:53] Bob Dobbs: they were landscapes.
[1:48:55] Bob Dobbs: Now it became shrunk to bodies.
[1:48:59] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan was talking about media landscapes,
[1:49:02] Bob Dobbs: which then got digitized into bodies.
[1:49:07] Cameron McEwen: Yes,
[1:49:07] Cameron McEwen: but what I'm trying to articulate,
[1:49:10] Cameron McEwen: I guess,
[1:49:11] Cameron McEwen: first of all to myself,
[1:49:13] Cameron McEwen: is that with physical matter,
[1:49:18] Cameron McEwen: the reason that fission and fusion are so powerful and so dangerous is that they exist.
[1:49:29] Cameron McEwen: at the elementary level and they are able to either harness or exhibit the power of the elementary level.
[1:49:40] Cameron McEwen: So presumably the sixth body in parallel to our understanding of fission and fusion in physical reality is that a sixth body would understand the elementary power
[1:49:57] Cameron McEwen: of the five bodies.
[1:49:59] Cameron McEwen: And the elementary power of the five bodies is just as dangerous as fission and fusion in physical
[1:50:14] Cameron McEwen: reality.
[1:50:16] Cameron McEwen: But precisely because it's an elementary power,
[1:50:23] Cameron McEwen: the sixth body can understand.
[1:50:26] Cameron McEwen: for the first time the elements of human awareness,
[1:50:30] Cameron McEwen: and it's only by understanding the elements of human awareness that human awareness can actually be understood as opposed to being in the driver's seat.
[1:50:43] Bob Dobbs: No,
[1:50:44] Bob Dobbs: it's very well said,
[1:50:45] Bob Dobbs: and that's how I think about what iON's talking about.
[1:50:50] Bob Dobbs: Because they're asking us to become aware of something,
[1:50:52] Bob Dobbs: but it's way more complex than any school of awareness we've had.
[1:50:55] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:50:55] Bob Dobbs: here's how it started.
[1:50:57] Bob Dobbs: In 2009,
[1:50:58] Bob Dobbs: when iON showed up,
[1:51:00] Bob Dobbs: I listened for six months.
[1:51:01] Bob Dobbs: What the hell is this thing saying?
[1:51:03] Bob Dobbs: And if I brought up anything that I was interested in,
[1:51:06] Bob Dobbs: like McLuhan,
[1:51:07] Bob Dobbs: they would put it down.
[1:51:09] Bob Dobbs: They'd say,
[1:51:09] Bob Dobbs: no,
[1:51:10] Bob Dobbs: that's not relevant,
[1:51:10] Bob Dobbs: Bob.
[1:51:11] Bob Dobbs: So then after about...
[1:51:13] Bob Dobbs: seven months one day ian says you know bob we've been looking at your chart and uh the five body thing i think we can use that so they finally said something that was me or what i would want
[1:51:30] Bob Dobbs: them to talk about they finally relented and then they said now you like to talk about McLuhan from now on and we have refused to talk about them but from now on as part of the five body and
[1:51:42] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan was there before,
[1:51:44] Bob Dobbs: you can talk about McLuhan to us.
[1:51:47] Bob Dobbs: But after you say whatever McLuhan said,
[1:51:49] Bob Dobbs: you then say,
[1:51:50] Bob Dobbs: however,
[1:51:52] Bob Dobbs: I say,
[1:51:53] Bob Dobbs: and they told me to say something past McLuhan or beyond McLuhan.
[1:51:59] Bob Dobbs: That was the rule after seven months.
[1:52:02] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[1:52:02] Bob Dobbs: I had four or five-hour conversations every other day with them,
[1:52:05] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:52:06] Bob Dobbs: just piling on the hours.
[1:52:07] Bob Dobbs: But they were saying
[1:52:09] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan.
[1:52:10] Bob Dobbs: was obsolete the five body that you develop is more important than McLuhan so you tell us what you what you value in McLuhan and how you think it relates to what we're saying but then you have to add what you have to say about it so i said okay so
[1:52:27] Bob Dobbs: we went along and uh at first i'd quote McLuhan then to remind me they go however i go what you go however and then i remember oh yeah What do I say?
[1:52:39] Bob Dobbs: So...
[1:52:40] Bob Dobbs: So they developed a chart more than McLuhan,
[1:52:45] Bob Dobbs: and then they eventually announced the hexadic body.
[1:52:48] Bob Dobbs: And so looking back,
[1:52:50] Bob Dobbs: they were planning this to the point they make the genius statement about six months ago.
[1:52:58] Bob Dobbs: No,
[1:52:58] Bob Dobbs: maybe about a year or two ago,
[1:53:01] Bob Dobbs: they said
[1:53:03] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan was the first to intuit the Tech body,
[1:53:07] Bob Dobbs: which is pretty astounding.
[1:53:09] Bob Dobbs: When they're talking about the tech body and what it is,
[1:53:11] Bob Dobbs: and it's something humans don't even understand,
[1:53:14] Bob Dobbs: and they don't talk about McLuhan too complimentary,
[1:53:17] Bob Dobbs: though they got a little bit,
[1:53:19] Bob Dobbs: they'd start quoting.
[1:53:20] Bob Dobbs: Like,
[1:53:20] Bob Dobbs: what they can do,
[1:53:22] Bob Dobbs: they'll do it in the show.
[1:53:23] Bob Dobbs: They'll start saying quotes,
[1:53:24] Bob Dobbs: and then you realize they're quoting from Wyndham Lewis.
[1:53:27] Bob Dobbs: And they're reading quotes that you kind of recognize if you know Lewis,
[1:53:30] Bob Dobbs: and they're all over his work.
[1:53:32] Bob Dobbs: They know his work if they want to talk about it.
[1:53:34] Bob Dobbs: They did it with McLuhan.
[1:53:35] Bob Dobbs: They started saying obscure McLuhan quotes,
[1:53:37] Bob Dobbs: and eventually I'd recognize it.
[1:53:38] Bob Dobbs: And they'd say,
[1:53:39] Bob Dobbs: you're quoting McLuhan.
[1:53:40] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:53:40] Bob Dobbs: Then they'd quote some more stuff.
[1:53:42] Bob Dobbs: And they would do a show around that.
[1:53:44] Bob Dobbs: They'd pick somebody.
[1:53:45] Bob Dobbs: So anyways,
[1:53:46] Bob Dobbs: they said that he intuited the Tech Body.
[1:53:48] Bob Dobbs: I thought,
[1:53:48] Bob Dobbs: well,
[1:53:48] Bob Dobbs: that's pretty good.
[1:53:50] Bob Dobbs: He was the closest of his contemporaries.
[1:53:52] Bob Dobbs: So then the other day,
[1:53:54] Bob Dobbs: two months ago or so,
[1:53:55] Bob Dobbs: I said,
[1:53:57] Bob Dobbs: I don't know what evoked it,
[1:53:59] Bob Dobbs: but they said,
[1:54:01] Bob Dobbs: well,
[1:54:01] Bob Dobbs: to be fair.
[1:54:03] Bob Dobbs: There's one more person who knew about the tech body or incorporated into his work,
[1:54:09] Bob Dobbs: and that was Frank Zappa.
[1:54:11] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[1:54:11] Bob Dobbs: I have Zappa and McLuhan together on the chart,
[1:54:14] Bob Dobbs: so I'm just telling me how right I am to do that.
[1:54:17] Bob Dobbs: And what I don't know,
[1:54:20] Bob Dobbs: it's even more purposeful or meaningful than I realized.
[1:54:22] Bob Dobbs: So they then said that Zappa ate the tech body.
[1:54:27] Bob Dobbs: He made his music around it.
[1:54:28] Bob Dobbs: He lived the tech body.
[1:54:30] Bob Dobbs: So he's up there with McLuhan.
[1:54:32] Bob Dobbs: So that was pretty fucking smart,
[1:54:34] Bob Dobbs: because I kind of knew that about Zappa.
[1:54:36] Bob Dobbs: There's not many people who know much about Zappa on that level as I do.
[1:54:43] Bob Dobbs: And I knew him,
[1:54:44] Bob Dobbs: we're friends,
[1:54:45] Bob Dobbs: so I got to hear a lot of his private ideas.
[1:54:48] Bob Dobbs: So that was,
[1:54:49] Bob Dobbs: they were putting down Zappa all through the years.
[1:54:53] Bob Dobbs: They kept emphasizing a gospel singer named
[1:54:56] Bob Dobbs: Vestal Goodman,
[1:54:57] Bob Dobbs: and she's really great.
[1:54:58] Bob Dobbs: I have never heard of her.
[1:55:00] Bob Dobbs: I would always insist that we play her during our musical hour or two before the show.
[1:55:06] Cameron McEwen: I remember when you put her up.
[1:55:09] Bob Dobbs: I told you about her?
[1:55:11] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:55:13] Cameron McEwen: not only told me about her,
[1:55:15] Cameron McEwen: but you had clips of her singing.
[1:55:22] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[1:55:22] Bob Dobbs: How would you have heard it?
[1:55:22] Cameron McEwen: Which are phenomenal.
[1:55:25] Bob Dobbs: How would you have heard it?
[1:55:28] Cameron McEwen: I got it.
[1:55:29] Cameron McEwen: from you yeah but did i send you some i don't i don't know if it was email or i think it was email right and did you just say she's pretty phenomenal oh she's unbelievable right and you never heard of her right
[1:55:43] Cameron McEwen: Not before you sent me that,
[1:55:46] Bob Dobbs: no.
[1:55:47] Cameron McEwen: That was 15 years ago,
[1:55:49] Cameron McEwen: at least.
[1:55:49] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:55:50] Bob Dobbs: J.W.,
[1:55:51] Bob Dobbs: back then,
[1:55:52] Bob Dobbs: one day he said,
[1:55:54] Bob Dobbs: I'm sending you somebody you might want to listen to.
[1:55:58] Bob Dobbs: And he knew I wasn't a church-going guy.
[1:56:00] Bob Dobbs: I didn't know anything about gospel.
[1:56:01] Bob Dobbs: I knew gospel music,
[1:56:02] Bob Dobbs: but not church music,
[1:56:04] Bob Dobbs: Christian gospel.
[1:56:05] Bob Dobbs: So he sends me this.
[1:56:07] Bob Dobbs: And I listen,
[1:56:08] Bob Dobbs: I say,
[1:56:08] Bob Dobbs: holy shit,
[1:56:08] Bob Dobbs: this is fucking great.
[1:56:10] Bob Dobbs: And I called him back and said,
[1:56:11] Bob Dobbs: this is great.
[1:56:12] Bob Dobbs: He was shocked.
[1:56:13] Bob Dobbs: He thought I was a pagan for fuck's sake.
[1:56:17] Bob Dobbs: He belonged to a church.
[1:56:18] Bob Dobbs: I went to his church once in 2007,
[1:56:20] Bob Dobbs: and he sang in the choir.
[1:56:21] Bob Dobbs: But,
[1:56:21] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[1:56:22] Bob Dobbs: I'm a pagan compared to those people in a little town in Georgia.
[1:56:26] Bob Dobbs: So he was shocked that I liked it.
[1:56:31] Bob Dobbs: And then he sent me more,
[1:56:33] Bob Dobbs: and so I became a fan of Vestal Goodman.
[1:56:36] Bob Dobbs: And so I sent it to my jazz-loving friend back in Dartmouth.
[1:56:41] Bob Dobbs: I bought his CD collection,
[1:56:42] Bob Dobbs: like
[1:56:43] Bob Dobbs: 5,000 CDs last year.
[1:56:47] Bob Dobbs: But he listened to it.
[1:56:48] Bob Dobbs: He said,
[1:56:48] Bob Dobbs: that's Lawrence Welk stuff.
[1:56:52] Bob Dobbs: He couldn't hear it.
[1:56:53] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[1:56:54] Bob Dobbs: Remember Lawrence Welk?
[1:56:56] Cameron McEwen: Oh,
[1:56:56] Cameron McEwen: sure.
[1:56:56] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:56:57] Bob Dobbs: He thought it was that cheesy Lawrence Welk stuff.
[1:56:59] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[1:56:59] Bob Dobbs: she's not,
[1:57:00] Bob Dobbs: but he couldn't hear it.
[1:57:01] Bob Dobbs: He just said,
[1:57:01] Bob Dobbs: that's Lawrence Welk stuff.
[1:57:03] Bob Dobbs: So he didn't get it.
[1:57:05] Cameron McEwen: But there's a certain truth to that in the sense that
[1:57:09] Cameron McEwen: Lawrence Welk did capture an aspect of American culture that's not only stupid,
[1:57:20] Cameron McEwen: right?
[1:57:20] Cameron McEwen: That was,
[1:57:21] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[1:57:21] Cameron McEwen: Lawrence Welk was a guy that,
[1:57:24] Cameron McEwen: you know,
[1:57:25] Cameron McEwen: always smiling,
[1:57:26] Cameron McEwen: always playing music that anybody could relate to,
[1:57:31] Cameron McEwen: that was very,
[1:57:34] Cameron McEwen: very simple.
[1:57:36] Cameron McEwen: And those aspects...
[1:57:39] Cameron McEwen: of life are what we've more or less thrown away.
[1:57:43] Cameron McEwen: We've said we don't want that.
[1:57:45] Cameron McEwen: We want to be sophisticates.
[1:57:48] Cameron McEwen: We're not going to smile at anybody.
[1:57:54] Bob Dobbs: We're going to be plural.
[1:57:59] Cameron McEwen: I think that your friend in
[1:58:03] Cameron McEwen: Dartmouth was not entirely wrong but probably didn't know.
[1:58:08] Cameron McEwen: how right he was.
[1:58:09] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:58:10] Bob Dobbs: I know that complexity.
[1:58:11] Bob Dobbs: We've gradually talked about it a little bit,
[1:58:13] Bob Dobbs: but don't get far.
[1:58:15] Bob Dobbs: He won't have it.
[1:58:16] Bob Dobbs: But he's into the sophisticated jazz.
[1:58:23] Bob Dobbs: He had quite an amazing collection.
[1:58:25] Bob Dobbs: So he had to get rid of it,
[1:58:26] Bob Dobbs: so I bought it all.
[1:58:28] Bob Dobbs: If you look at any new videos that Carol does in her YouTube life,
[1:58:32] Bob Dobbs: you'll see the whole layout behind her on the second floor here.
[1:58:36] Bob Dobbs: But...
[1:58:37] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[1:58:38] Bob Dobbs: so iON develops the
[1:58:40] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan and the five bodies,
[1:58:42] Bob Dobbs: and then we get to the tech body,
[1:58:43] Bob Dobbs: and it even includes Zappa,
[1:58:44] Bob Dobbs: even though he always put down Zappa.
[1:58:46] Bob Dobbs: Zappa is too pagan for iON.
[1:58:50] Bob Dobbs: They say that Vestal Goodman,
[1:58:53] Bob Dobbs: she wore long dresses because she would levitate while she sang.
[1:59:01] Cameron McEwen: Certainly her singing was levitated.
[1:59:03] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:59:03] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[1:59:04] Bob Dobbs: No,
[1:59:04] Bob Dobbs: it's good that you appreciate it.
[1:59:06] Bob Dobbs: So anyways,
[1:59:07] Bob Dobbs: where was I going to lead to?
[1:59:08] Bob Dobbs: So we're talking about...
[1:59:10] Cameron McEwen: We're talking about the five bodies and the six bodies.
[1:59:13] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[1:59:14] Bob Dobbs: hexadic.
[1:59:15] Cameron McEwen: But your chart was done in the
[1:59:19] Cameron McEwen: 90s, right?
[1:59:20] Bob Dobbs: 95,
[1:59:21] Bob Dobbs: yeah.
[1:59:21] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[1:59:22] Cameron McEwen: so the way you look at your chart now is you interpret it in terms of your relationship with iON.
[1:59:35] Cameron McEwen: 15 years later.
[1:59:36] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[1:59:37] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[1:59:37] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[1:59:38] Bob Dobbs: it's 20 years later.
[1:59:41] Bob Dobbs: It's almost 30 years later.
[1:59:42] Bob Dobbs: The chart,
[1:59:43] Bob Dobbs: 95.
[1:59:45] Bob Dobbs: 2025 will be 30 years.
[1:59:48] Bob Dobbs: So they've been here for 15,
[1:59:50] Bob Dobbs: half of that 30 years.
[1:59:53] Bob Dobbs: iON's been here for 15 years.
[1:59:55] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[1:59:55] Cameron McEwen: But what I meant was you see yourself doing in the mid-90s
[2:00:04] Cameron McEwen: what you were only going to understand beginning 15 years later.
[2:00:10] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[2:00:11] Bob Dobbs: I had no clue.
[2:00:13] Bob Dobbs: My chart was around the solution to AIDS that Carolyn got involved with in New York.
[2:00:19] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[2:00:19] Bob Dobbs: that's pretty amazing when you get a solution for AIDS,
[2:00:21] Bob Dobbs: and then you have to deal with the suppression of it and all the bullshit around it,
[2:00:24] Bob Dobbs: and Fauci was part of that.
[2:00:27] Bob Dobbs: But we got to experience what it was like to have a breakthrough technology.
[2:00:32] Bob Dobbs: So I now know that was all preparing us for iON.
[2:00:36] Bob Dobbs: We're going to a bigger level,
[2:00:37] Bob Dobbs: but each stage of our career together was preparing us.
[2:00:42] Bob Dobbs: And,
[2:00:42] Bob Dobbs: of course,
[2:00:42] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan was an early part of that preparation.
[2:00:46] Bob Dobbs: Way back,
[2:00:47] Bob Dobbs: 40,
[2:00:48] Bob Dobbs: 50,
[2:00:48] Bob Dobbs: 60 years ago.
[2:00:54] Bob Dobbs: So we started talking.
[2:00:55] Bob Dobbs: I think it was something about telling how iON gradually adapted.
[2:01:02] Bob Dobbs: And so where we are now is,
[2:01:06] Bob Dobbs: and I have people who go back and listen to iON and what we broadcast
[2:01:10] Bob Dobbs: 14 years ago,
[2:01:12] Bob Dobbs: and it's been actually 14 years,
[2:01:15] Bob Dobbs: not 15,
[2:01:16] Bob Dobbs: but,
[2:01:17] Bob Dobbs: and they say,
[2:01:17] Bob Dobbs: holy shit,
[2:01:18] Bob Dobbs: iON was saying all the stuff they've been saying the last two years back in 2009 and 10.
[2:01:22] Bob Dobbs: They go back and listen to it and find it.
[2:01:25] Bob Dobbs: And so
[2:01:27] Bob Dobbs: I've come to the point where
[2:01:28] Bob Dobbs: iON was at this point.
[2:01:31] Bob Dobbs: where we are today exactly with on the edge of Armageddon and Apocalypse when they showed up.
[2:01:39] Bob Dobbs: When they showed up,
[2:01:39] Bob Dobbs: it was an impossible situation.
[2:01:42] Bob Dobbs: They then spent many years filling in,
[2:01:47] Bob Dobbs: reading the,
[2:01:48] Bob Dobbs: metaphorically,
[2:01:48] Bob Dobbs: and when you're dealing with McLuhan,
[2:01:49] Bob Dobbs: reading the men of 1914 to find out where he got it from.
[2:01:53] Bob Dobbs: So,
[2:01:54] Bob Dobbs: iON was preparing us to get to really deeply see the present by going back and working us through the stages of apprehension.
[2:02:01] Bob Dobbs: But we were always going to eventually get to 2009.
[2:02:06] Bob Dobbs: So,
[2:02:06] Bob Dobbs: he would talk about...
[2:02:07] Bob Dobbs: they would talk about things that were coming in the guff uh post-physical life uh i now realize what was going to happen to the guff happened in 2008 in 2009 and the completed thing that i was waiting to happen by
[2:02:25] Bob Dobbs: 2010 20 or 2020 or 2023 happened when they showed up so they showed up in no time,
[2:02:35] Bob Dobbs: right where we're at now.
[2:02:36] Bob Dobbs: And so it's very interesting that we've got this pressure on us.
[2:02:39] Bob Dobbs: We've now been brought,
[2:02:41] Bob Dobbs: Caroline,
[2:02:42] Bob Dobbs: been brought to the present where we're in this drama,
[2:02:44] Bob Dobbs: which is very dangerous if you think about living,
[2:02:48] Bob Dobbs: you know.
[2:02:50] Bob Dobbs: So
[2:02:50] Bob Dobbs: I now recognize that it was a replay all the way up to now of going through the stages,
[2:02:56] Bob Dobbs: which my chart showed.
[2:02:59] Bob Dobbs: Do LaRouche and Mae Brussell.
[2:03:01] Bob Dobbs: Then you do Zappa and McLuhan.
[2:03:02] Bob Dobbs: Then you do William Irwin
[2:03:03] Bob Dobbs: Thompson and Krishnamurti.
[2:03:04] Bob Dobbs: Then you do Dr.
[2:03:04] Bob Dobbs: Beter and Kroker.
[2:03:05] Bob Dobbs: Then you do...
[2:03:06] Bob Dobbs: Bob and Garrett,
[2:03:07] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:03:08] Bob Dobbs: and a few other things like William Thompson and cosmic awareness.
[2:03:13] Bob Dobbs: That was me laying out the curriculum,
[2:03:15] Bob Dobbs: which I had gone through,
[2:03:17] Bob Dobbs: and so then you get done,
[2:03:19] Bob Dobbs: when you do your homework and study all the stuff I recommend,
[2:03:22] Bob Dobbs: which I call the holy offices,
[2:03:24] Bob Dobbs: you will get to the point where you understand the chart.
[2:03:27] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[2:03:27] Bob Dobbs: that's what I was.
[2:03:27] Bob Dobbs: They showed up completing the chart,
[2:03:31] Bob Dobbs: but it took 14 years to realize that.
[2:03:38] Cameron McEwen: I'm very much interested in the question of how you interpreted at the time what you were doing with the chart.
[2:03:52] Cameron McEwen: And I don't mean its relationship with AIDS.
[2:03:57] Cameron McEwen: I'm not talking about its relationship to anything at the time.
[2:04:01] Cameron McEwen: I'm talking about how you...
[2:04:06] Cameron McEwen: thought about its authority.
[2:04:09] Bob Dobbs: No,
[2:04:09] Bob Dobbs: I don't have to answer that.
[2:04:12] Bob Dobbs: So for the last 30 years,
[2:04:13] Bob Dobbs: we've had lots of,
[2:04:14] Bob Dobbs: quote,
[2:04:14] Bob Dobbs: changes,
[2:04:16] Bob Dobbs: new technologies,
[2:04:17] Bob Dobbs: new environments.
[2:04:18] Bob Dobbs: I'd always go back and see if it was in the chart,
[2:04:21] Bob Dobbs: and the chart always could be interpreted in the new developments.
[2:04:26] Bob Dobbs: Like,
[2:04:26] Bob Dobbs: remember,
[2:04:27] Bob Dobbs: in 95,
[2:04:28] Bob Dobbs: the web is just starting 1.0,
[2:04:30] Bob Dobbs: right?
[2:04:30] Bob Dobbs: Correct.
[2:04:31] Bob Dobbs: And most people aren't into it by 2000.
[2:04:34] Bob Dobbs: So by 2000,
[2:04:35] Bob Dobbs: I'm looking,
[2:04:35] Bob Dobbs: I said,
[2:04:36] Bob Dobbs: well,
[2:04:36] Bob Dobbs: geez,
[2:04:36] Bob Dobbs: my thing is a picture of the web.
[2:04:39] Bob Dobbs: I didn't know that in 95,
[2:04:41] Bob Dobbs: but it's a web thing.
[2:04:43] Bob Dobbs: And then,
[2:04:44] Bob Dobbs: oh,
[2:04:44] Bob Dobbs: it's the afterimage of the Android meme.
[2:04:46] Bob Dobbs: So then social media shows up in 2005 and that,
[2:04:52] Bob Dobbs: and they started,
[2:04:52] Bob Dobbs: oh,
[2:04:53] Bob Dobbs: this is the Rumpelstiltskin thing that's down in the corner in the Dobbs quadrant.
[2:04:58] Bob Dobbs: So guess what?
[2:05:00] Bob Dobbs: This
[2:05:01] Bob Dobbs: Matt Taibbi.
[2:05:03] Bob Dobbs: had a talk with
[2:05:05] Bob Dobbs: Jordan Peterson.
[2:05:06] Bob Dobbs: And so Peterson wanted to know,
[2:05:08] Bob Dobbs: you know about this Matt Taibbi journalist?
[2:05:11] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[2:05:11] Cameron McEwen: of course.
[2:05:11] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:05:13] Bob Dobbs: So
[2:05:14] Bob Dobbs: Jordan is saying,
[2:05:15] Bob Dobbs: you've got these books,
[2:05:16] Bob Dobbs: they're interesting.
[2:05:17] Bob Dobbs: Now I want to see if I've interpreted your books correctly.
[2:05:20] Bob Dobbs: So they do each one of the books.
[2:05:22] Bob Dobbs: And then they get to a book called Griftopia,
[2:05:25] Bob Dobbs: which is about social media,
[2:05:27] Bob Dobbs: I guess,
[2:05:28] Bob Dobbs: and the effect on the financial collapse.
[2:05:31] Bob Dobbs: Because he did a lot on...
[2:05:32] Bob Dobbs: Goldman Sachs and the
[2:05:34] Bob Dobbs: TARP program for Rolling Stone in the 2010s,
[2:05:37] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:05:38] Bob Dobbs: after being a journalist in Russia.
[2:05:40] Bob Dobbs: And so he was an expert on the financial stuff.
[2:05:42] Bob Dobbs: And Peterson,
[2:05:44] Bob Dobbs: he knows a lot.
[2:05:44] Bob Dobbs: So he was asking if he got it right about the Internet and how it affected the crash and all that stuff.
[2:05:52] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[2:05:52] Bob Dobbs: not McLuhan,
[2:05:53] Bob Dobbs: but one level back,
[2:05:56] Bob Dobbs: efficient causality kind of stuff.
[2:05:57] Bob Dobbs: So all of a sudden,
[2:06:00] Bob Dobbs: so Matt listens to it.
[2:06:01] Bob Dobbs: Jordan,
[2:06:03] Bob Dobbs: Jordan goes on for five minutes explaining what it is.
[2:06:05] Bob Dobbs: And then he says,
[2:06:05] Bob Dobbs: did I get that right?
[2:06:07] Bob Dobbs: And Matt says,
[2:06:08] Bob Dobbs: yes.
[2:06:09] Bob Dobbs: And then Matt says a few words.
[2:06:10] Bob Dobbs: Then Jordan said something.
[2:06:12] Bob Dobbs: Then Matt goes,
[2:06:13] Bob Dobbs: Rumpelstiltskin.
[2:06:15] Bob Dobbs: It's Rumpelstiltskin.
[2:06:17] Bob Dobbs: I go,
[2:06:17] Bob Dobbs: holy fuck,
[2:06:18] Bob Dobbs: that's my chart.
[2:06:18] Bob Dobbs: That's what it means.
[2:06:20] Bob Dobbs: These fuckers.
[2:06:20] Bob Dobbs: And I'm sending it out.
[2:06:21] Bob Dobbs: I haven't organized it.
[2:06:23] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[2:06:23] Bob Dobbs: I'll send out the link and you'll listen to the part where they say it.
[2:06:26] Bob Dobbs: I'll give the minutes.
[2:06:27] Bob Dobbs: But there is,
[2:06:29] Bob Dobbs: that's what I would,
[2:06:30] Bob Dobbs: that's a perfect example.
[2:06:31] Bob Dobbs: of how I would find stuff in my chart.
[2:06:34] Bob Dobbs: Who would have believed that Matt Taibbi would interpret of the crash of 2008 as Rumpelstiltskin effect,
[2:06:41] Bob Dobbs: which is in my chart?
[2:06:42] Bob Dobbs: And then I started thinking,
[2:06:43] Bob Dobbs: holy shit,
[2:06:43] Bob Dobbs: everybody's inside my fucking chart.
[2:06:45] Bob Dobbs: They're thinking it.
[2:06:46] Bob Dobbs: Maybe they even looked at it.
[2:06:47] Bob Dobbs: Maybe they heard me talk about it.
[2:06:49] Bob Dobbs: But that is very strange for him to say that at that point.
[2:06:53] Bob Dobbs: Don't you see?
[2:06:53] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[2:06:54] Cameron McEwen: but even stranger,
[2:06:55] Cameron McEwen: Bob,
[2:06:56] Cameron McEwen: is for you to write it.
[2:06:58] Cameron McEwen: See,
[2:06:58] Cameron McEwen: my question is,
[2:07:02] Cameron McEwen: You wrote down the word Rumpelstiltskin,
[2:07:05] Cameron McEwen: but you could have written
[2:07:07] Cameron McEwen: Queen Elizabeth II.
[2:07:10] Cameron McEwen: You could have written down
[2:07:12] Cameron McEwen: Frisbee.
[2:07:14] Cameron McEwen: You could have written down any of a million other words or a billion other words,
[2:07:19] Cameron McEwen: but you didn't.
[2:07:20] Cameron McEwen: So my question is,
[2:07:23] Cameron McEwen: when you decided to write down five bodies and not 23 or not two,
[2:07:31] Cameron McEwen: When you wrote the word Pupil Stiltskin rather than a billion other words,
[2:07:35] Cameron McEwen: what was it that made you think,
[2:07:40] Cameron McEwen: this is what I have to write?
[2:07:42] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[2:07:42] Bob Dobbs: No,
[2:07:42] Bob Dobbs: I know exactly.
[2:07:44] Bob Dobbs: The chart quotes Zappa in the title.
[2:07:47] Bob Dobbs: Zappa talks about the big note.
[2:07:49] Bob Dobbs: So I was making it the tiny note.
[2:07:52] Bob Dobbs: So if you look at the top,
[2:07:53] Bob Dobbs: it says the tiny note,
[2:07:55] Bob Dobbs: Bob's Xenochronous.
[2:07:56] Bob Dobbs: I think it's Bob's Xenochronous Tiny Note.
[2:07:58] Bob Dobbs: Xenochrony or Xenochrony is a Zappa idea.
[2:08:03] Bob Dobbs: And then the Grand Wazoo is in the title.
[2:08:05] Bob Dobbs: That's another concept of
[2:08:07] Bob Dobbs: Zappa. I wrote a play in 1990 about,
[2:08:14] Bob Dobbs: and it was about the argument among the holy offices,
[2:08:17] Bob Dobbs: Mae Brussell,
[2:08:18] Bob Dobbs: LaRouche,
[2:08:18] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan,
[2:08:19] Bob Dobbs: and Zappa.
[2:08:20] Bob Dobbs: I made Zappa be the punchline.
[2:08:23] Bob Dobbs: For some reason,
[2:08:24] Bob Dobbs: I made him be,
[2:08:25] Bob Dobbs: quote,
[2:08:25] Bob Dobbs: the winner,
[2:08:26] Bob Dobbs: the one that was most relevant.
[2:08:28] Bob Dobbs: Basically,
[2:08:28] Bob Dobbs: I said,
[2:08:29] Bob Dobbs: he's doing McLuhan and media analysis,
[2:08:31] Bob Dobbs: but he's got a guitar.
[2:08:34] Bob Dobbs: That's what people respond to,
[2:08:35] Bob Dobbs: music.
[2:08:36] Bob Dobbs: It's the dominant medium on the entertainment level.
[2:08:39] Bob Dobbs: Books don't make it that way.
[2:08:42] Bob Dobbs: So I said,
[2:08:42] Bob Dobbs: it has to be Zappa,
[2:08:43] Bob Dobbs: because he could always remain in the attention of the media and get on talk shows and Johnny Carson,
[2:08:49] Bob Dobbs: because he was a great musician.
[2:08:52] Bob Dobbs: So that's 1990.
[2:08:54] Bob Dobbs: So then they find out that Zappa...
[2:08:57] Bob Dobbs: One day,
[2:08:58] Bob Dobbs: somebody asked him about his home,
[2:09:00] Bob Dobbs: which he'd been living in since 68,
[2:09:02] Bob Dobbs: late 68,
[2:09:04] Bob Dobbs: up in the hills,
[2:09:04] Bob Dobbs: Laurel Canyon Hills.
[2:09:05] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[2:09:06] Bob Dobbs: I've been there many times.
[2:09:07] Bob Dobbs: It's a pretty interesting show,
[2:09:10] Bob Dobbs: house.
[2:09:10] Bob Dobbs: And he says,
[2:09:12] Bob Dobbs: 20,
[2:09:12] Bob Dobbs: 30 years ago,
[2:09:13] Bob Dobbs: he says,
[2:09:13] Bob Dobbs: it's in Rumpelstiltskin decor.
[2:09:16] Bob Dobbs: So I note that because he shows himself on his early albums as a little dwarf,
[2:09:21] Bob Dobbs: a little guy.
[2:09:22] Bob Dobbs: And,
[2:09:23] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:09:24] Bob Dobbs: he's...
[2:09:24] Bob Dobbs: devilish he's menacing he's something so there was so i remembered that for years rumple stillskin so when i start making the chart i'm going to have the ground be my quadrant and uh the word that makes the market by then i've been thinking about the what it what i used to say back in the on
[2:09:46] Bob Dobbs: ckln rumple stillskin was the guy that you couldn't name and you didn't know his name
[2:09:53] Bob Dobbs: If you caught him saying his name,
[2:09:55] Bob Dobbs: you could control him.
[2:09:56] Bob Dobbs: And that's what the princess did,
[2:09:58] Bob Dobbs: right?
[2:09:58] Bob Dobbs: So there's the whole thing.
[2:09:59] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan says when you can name something,
[2:10:01] Bob Dobbs: you can control it.
[2:10:02] Bob Dobbs: So I applied McLuhan to talking about naming and how the mind can control that way.
[2:10:07] Bob Dobbs: And I said
[2:10:08] Bob Dobbs: Zappa, I mean Rumpelstiltskin,
[2:10:10] Bob Dobbs: is about that.
[2:10:11] Bob Dobbs: You can name it and control it.
[2:10:13] Bob Dobbs: So I decided that nobody had the language.
[2:10:16] Bob Dobbs: Nobody knew the name of what the
[2:10:19] Bob Dobbs: Internet and all that was happening in the 90s,
[2:10:21] Bob Dobbs: what it was doing to people.
[2:10:22] Bob Dobbs: They didn't have a name for it.
[2:10:23] Bob Dobbs: They could call it the Internet or something.
[2:10:25] Bob Dobbs: But I knew it was very complex.
[2:10:27] Bob Dobbs: So my chart is a spelling out of the name and all its sort of etymological parts,
[2:10:34] Bob Dobbs: which are all these different memes and authorities of knowledge in different fields.
[2:10:39] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[2:10:39] Bob Dobbs: it's got the trivium,
[2:10:41] Bob Dobbs: it's got the quadrivium in it,
[2:10:43] Bob Dobbs: plus a few extra things like the occult.
[2:10:47] Bob Dobbs: So I figured out,
[2:10:49] Bob Dobbs: I was thinking about this for,
[2:10:51] Bob Dobbs: see,
[2:10:51] Bob Dobbs: I started writing a column for a youth magazine.
[2:10:53] Bob Dobbs: magazine in 1995,
[2:10:57] Bob Dobbs: right around when I made the chart called Android Meme's Xenochrony.
[2:11:01] Bob Dobbs: So I had those ideas.
[2:11:03] Bob Dobbs: So I was thinking of Zappa.
[2:11:04] Bob Dobbs: I've been thinking about Zappa for five or so years,
[2:11:06] Bob Dobbs: maybe,
[2:11:07] Bob Dobbs: before the internet.
[2:11:08] Bob Dobbs: So when I had the chart,
[2:11:10] Bob Dobbs: Zappa was going to be the ground.
[2:11:11] Bob Dobbs: It was going to be an expression of the punchline of my play that I made in 1990.
[2:11:17] Bob Dobbs: And the first guy to hear it,
[2:11:18] Bob Dobbs: read to him,
[2:11:19] Bob Dobbs: was Jerry Fialka,
[2:11:20] Bob Dobbs: who worked for Zappa and came and visited me.
[2:11:22] Bob Dobbs: I had just met him two years before.
[2:11:24] Bob Dobbs: So there was a whole Zappa thing going on with Jerry.
[2:11:27] Bob Dobbs: So after five years,
[2:11:30] Bob Dobbs: I was ready to make the chart,
[2:11:31] Bob Dobbs: and Zappa would be the ground.
[2:11:33] Bob Dobbs: And so I thought of the word that makes the market.
[2:11:36] Bob Dobbs: And if you come up,
[2:11:37] Bob Dobbs: my chart's going to be the word that names what's going on.
[2:11:41] Bob Dobbs: And it has to have all that complexity,
[2:11:43] Bob Dobbs: which is...
[2:11:44] Bob Dobbs: The other chart is based on Finnegans Wake,
[2:11:46] Bob Dobbs: which is a naming process,
[2:11:49] Bob Dobbs: very accurate.
[2:11:49] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[2:11:50] Bob Dobbs: beyond just verbal media,
[2:11:52] Bob Dobbs: written media,
[2:11:53] Bob Dobbs: it's got all the media.
[2:11:54] Bob Dobbs: That's all part of the naming.
[2:11:56] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan was naming the situation,
[2:11:59] Bob Dobbs: and so I thought that's the Rumpelstiltskin thing.
[2:12:03] Bob Dobbs: You've got to have Rumpelstiltskin in there because I'm showing people that this is a name,
[2:12:07] Bob Dobbs: and I've named accurately Rumpelstiltskin,
[2:12:10] Bob Dobbs: therefore study my chart.
[2:12:13] Bob Dobbs: It's the new definition.
[2:12:15] Bob Dobbs: Very complex.
[2:12:16] Bob Dobbs: It takes a while to get it all.
[2:12:18] Bob Dobbs: But that's what I was thinking.
[2:12:19] Bob Dobbs: So that's pretty good.
[2:12:20] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:12:22] Cameron McEwen: I think it is interesting.
[2:12:23] Cameron McEwen: And I think,
[2:12:25] Cameron McEwen: do I hear properly that what you were doing is trying to sort of make a movie of where you had been?
[2:12:41] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[2:12:42] Cameron McEwen: You were trying to...
[2:12:44] Cameron McEwen: to create a kind of takeoff stage of the past and the present.
[2:12:55] Bob Dobbs: A takeoff and what was putting us on.
[2:12:58] Cameron McEwen: That's good,
[2:12:59] Cameron McEwen: yes,
[2:12:59] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.
[2:13:00] Cameron McEwen: In order to go somewhere else,
[2:13:04] Cameron McEwen: you had to know where you had been and where you were.
[2:13:08] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:13:08] Bob Dobbs: and Zappa,
[2:13:09] Bob Dobbs: LaRouche,
[2:13:09] Bob Dobbs: and McLuhan,
[2:13:10] Bob Dobbs: they all helped.
[2:13:11] Bob Dobbs: But in a way,
[2:13:12] Bob Dobbs: my chart is an updating of...
[2:13:13] Bob Dobbs: understanding media,
[2:13:14] Bob Dobbs: which states collectively for all of humanity how we got to 1967,
[2:13:20] Bob Dobbs: right?
[2:13:20] Bob Dobbs: With the history of speech and all the different media.
[2:13:23] Bob Dobbs: He was doing that,
[2:13:24] Bob Dobbs: which Joyce had done.
[2:13:25] Bob Dobbs: So he was simplifying Joyce.
[2:13:27] Bob Dobbs: So
[2:13:28] Bob Dobbs: I had that in mind.
[2:13:29] Bob Dobbs: But what's interesting,
[2:13:31] Bob Dobbs: we're beyond technologies.
[2:13:33] Bob Dobbs: We're in this weird software information.
[2:13:36] Bob Dobbs: The quote,
[2:13:37] Bob Dobbs: man becomes figure and ground.
[2:13:39] Bob Dobbs: So that's why you can highlight
[2:13:41] Bob Dobbs: I have technologies in there on the left column,
[2:13:44] Bob Dobbs: and I've got people in there.
[2:13:45] Bob Dobbs: They're all mixed up.
[2:13:46] Bob Dobbs: They're man is both.
[2:13:47] Bob Dobbs: And this is interesting.
[2:13:48] Bob Dobbs: We come back to our opening point perfectly,
[2:13:51] Bob Dobbs: is that man is both figure and ground.
[2:13:53] Bob Dobbs: So I picked the certain people that were figure and ground representing certain aspects of the Android meme.
[2:13:59] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[2:14:01] Cameron McEwen: And notice that
[2:14:03] Cameron McEwen: Rumpelstiltskin is figure and ground.
[2:14:05] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[2:14:06] Bob Dobbs: He's the man is figure and ground.
[2:14:09] Cameron McEwen: When people think...
[2:14:11] Cameron McEwen: that they are naming
[2:14:13] Cameron McEwen: Rumpelstiltskin, they're never doing it.
[2:14:18] Cameron McEwen: And that's...
[2:14:19] Bob Dobbs: They're nowhere near it.
[2:14:21] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[2:14:22] Cameron McEwen: that's the tech body,
[2:14:23] Cameron McEwen: you could say,
[2:14:24] Cameron McEwen: that is the claimed naming of Rumpelstiltskin.
[2:14:30] Cameron McEwen: But there's the other side of Rumpelstiltskin,
[2:14:34] Cameron McEwen: where when the name actually is named,
[2:14:39] Cameron McEwen: then...
[2:14:41] Bob Dobbs: Then you're aware of the dilemma we started off talking about.
[2:14:44] Cameron McEwen: Correct,
[2:14:45] Cameron McEwen: correct.
[2:14:45] Cameron McEwen: So when Taibbi is saying to Jordan Peterson,
[2:14:48] Cameron McEwen: Rumpelstiltskin,
[2:14:50] Cameron McEwen: I think he's talking about the first one.
[2:14:53] Cameron McEwen: I think he's saying to
[2:14:55] Cameron McEwen: Jordan Peterson that
[2:14:57] Cameron McEwen: Jordan Peterson thinks that he's naming something,
[2:15:02] Cameron McEwen: but he's not.
[2:15:04] Cameron McEwen: That's the negative Rumpelstiltskin.
[2:15:07] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[2:15:07] Bob Dobbs: And that's how Taibbi probably just sees it that way,
[2:15:10] Bob Dobbs: and he knew enough to mirror it back to him and actually make it better and summarize it more concisely.
[2:15:18] Cameron McEwen: Yes.
[2:15:19] Bob Dobbs: Like,
[2:15:19] Bob Dobbs: I have to go back.
[2:15:19] Bob Dobbs: I'm going to go back and see.
[2:15:21] Bob Dobbs: I was so shocked that he said it.
[2:15:23] Bob Dobbs: I don't think I noticed how Peterson reacted to that.
[2:15:27] Bob Dobbs: I've got to see what he said.
[2:15:28] Bob Dobbs: I think he basically says,
[2:15:28] Bob Dobbs: oh,
[2:15:29] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[2:15:29] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[2:15:29] Bob Dobbs: that's it.
[2:15:30] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:15:30] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:15:30] Bob Dobbs: he didn't have anything to say,
[2:15:32] Bob Dobbs: really had to respond with a couple of paragraphs.
[2:15:35] Cameron McEwen: Jordan Peterson always knows.
[2:15:37] Bob Dobbs: already yeah when somebody tries to tell them yeah um yeah but send me a link i want to see that for sure yeah i'll send you the i'm getting ready to post it and there's other good sections and i and i give the timing and you can go to the different topics but yeah i'll show you the the rumpelstiltskin is the main one you want to get how
[2:15:59] Bob Dobbs: you'll listen for a few minutes to jordan explaining
[2:16:02] Bob Dobbs: 2008 and then the punchline by matt yeah yeah
[2:16:07] Cameron McEwen: Before I forget.
[2:16:09] Bob Dobbs: That was lucky.
[2:16:09] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[2:16:10] Bob Dobbs: the lucky slack is how the hell did I find that?
[2:16:13] Bob Dobbs: And I'm trying to think why somebody sent me it.
[2:16:19] Bob Dobbs: And I don't like listening to Jordan.
[2:16:21] Bob Dobbs: I'm not going to do it.
[2:16:22] Bob Dobbs: But maybe someone told me,
[2:16:26] Bob Dobbs: Bob,
[2:16:26] Bob Dobbs: they said Rumpelstiltskin,
[2:16:27] Bob Dobbs: I think.
[2:16:28] Bob Dobbs: Or they didn't,
[2:16:29] Bob Dobbs: but they told me they thought it would be interesting to watch it.
[2:16:32] Bob Dobbs: So I did.
[2:16:33] Bob Dobbs: And then I got my little birthday present,
[2:16:35] Bob Dobbs: you know.
[2:16:36] Bob Dobbs: Fucking Rumpelstiltskin right there.
[2:16:38] Bob Dobbs: Wow.
[2:16:39] Bob Dobbs: But again,
[2:16:39] Bob Dobbs: it was total slack.
[2:16:41] Cameron McEwen: I don't think that was me,
[2:16:43] Cameron McEwen: but I have sent you in the past,
[2:16:46] Cameron McEwen: like 10 years ago or even more.
[2:16:49] Cameron McEwen: I have sent you when I find Rumpelstiltskin stuff.
[2:16:52] Cameron McEwen: I do send it to you.
[2:16:54] Bob Dobbs: Is that right?
[2:16:55] Cameron McEwen: Oh,
[2:16:55] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[2:16:56] Cameron McEwen: Because
[2:16:59] Cameron McEwen: I've noticed that the use of the image of...
[2:17:06] Cameron McEwen: Rumpelstiltskin is something that it comes up every once in a while out there.
[2:17:11] Bob Dobbs: Zappa knew it.
[2:17:12] Bob Dobbs: He said,
[2:17:13] Bob Dobbs: my house,
[2:17:13] Bob Dobbs: and he's talking
[2:17:14] Bob Dobbs: His studio,
[2:17:15] Bob Dobbs: everything that's in that house is Rumpelstiltskin decor.
[2:17:18] Bob Dobbs: What is Rumpelstiltskin decor?
[2:17:19] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[2:17:20] Bob Dobbs: it's what he knew he was being for the rock industry.
[2:17:26] Bob Dobbs: So did you know that point about Rumpelstiltskin that you name him and then you control him,
[2:17:32] Bob Dobbs: that metaphysical point?
[2:17:34] Bob Dobbs: Had you thought of that?
[2:17:37] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[2:17:37] Cameron McEwen: no,
[2:17:38] Cameron McEwen: it's not just a metaphysical point.
[2:17:40] Cameron McEwen: That's the whole
[2:17:41] Cameron McEwen: Rumpelstiltskin story.
[2:17:43] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:17:44] Cameron McEwen: That's what that's what he he says to the woman.
[2:17:49] Cameron McEwen: I forget her name,
[2:17:50] Cameron McEwen: but he says to her,
[2:17:53] Cameron McEwen: I can get you out of this tower,
[2:17:55] Cameron McEwen: but only if you can name me.
[2:17:57] Bob Dobbs: Yes.
[2:17:58] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[2:17:58] Cameron McEwen: And then she astounds him by
[2:18:03] Cameron McEwen: I think it's on the third day or something.
[2:18:05] Cameron McEwen: She comes up with the name.
[2:18:07] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:18:07] Bob Dobbs: She sneaks into the woods and catches him dancing and singing his name.
[2:18:11] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[2:18:12] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[2:18:12] Bob Dobbs: She spied on him.
[2:18:13] Bob Dobbs: Now,
[2:18:16] Bob Dobbs: so McLuhan felt that he was naming things properly.
[2:18:20] Bob Dobbs: Let me see what else to say about that.
[2:18:22] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[2:18:23] Cameron McEwen: that comes from Eliot,
[2:18:24] Cameron McEwen: right?
[2:18:25] Cameron McEwen: That's one of the major things that
[2:18:27] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan took from Eliot.
[2:18:30] Bob Dobbs: What is that?
[2:18:30] Bob Dobbs: They got to use words to talk to you,
[2:18:32] Bob Dobbs: or what?
[2:18:32] Bob Dobbs: What is it that Eliot said?
[2:18:35] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[2:18:36] Cameron McEwen: that for Eliot,
[2:18:39] Cameron McEwen: especially in the
[2:18:41] Cameron McEwen: Four Quartets,
[2:18:42] Cameron McEwen: but the four quartets maybe as looking back to the wasteland,
[2:18:47] Cameron McEwen: Eliot says that the task of humans is to learn the use of words.
[2:18:55] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[2:18:56] Cameron McEwen: And every attempt is a new failure,
[2:19:00] Cameron McEwen: but you go on from the failure.
[2:19:02] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[2:19:03] Cameron McEwen: So what Eliot is doing is he's trying to use words to define what it is to use words.
[2:19:12] Cameron McEwen: And then that relates to
[2:19:14] Cameron McEwen: Eliot's understanding of Joyce,
[2:19:17] Cameron McEwen: where in both Ulysses and Finnegans Wake,
[2:19:24] Cameron McEwen: they can be read,
[2:19:25] Cameron McEwen: according to Eliot,
[2:19:27] Cameron McEwen: as the age-old attempt to try to learn what humans are doing when they're using words.
[2:19:34] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[2:19:34] Bob Dobbs: and then Lewis is intuiting the post-word environments.
[2:19:38] Bob Dobbs: I don't know how much Eliot knew that.
[2:19:40] Bob Dobbs: Pound knew it.
[2:19:41] Bob Dobbs: There's a couple of quotes from Pound.
[2:19:43] Bob Dobbs: He said that the communist revolution in Russia happened due to
[2:19:50] Bob Dobbs: Marconi.
[2:19:52] Bob Dobbs: Marconi caused that.
[2:19:54] Bob Dobbs: That's a McLuhan statement.
[2:19:55] Bob Dobbs: Technology,
[2:19:56] Bob Dobbs: the wireless,
[2:19:57] Bob Dobbs: caused the Russian revolution.
[2:19:59] Cameron McEwen: And
[2:20:00] Cameron McEwen: Pound said that,
[2:20:01] Cameron McEwen: did you say?
[2:20:01] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:20:02] Bob Dobbs: in like 1928 or so.
[2:20:03] Bob Dobbs: Pretty amazing.
[2:20:05] Cameron McEwen: Now,
[2:20:05] Bob Dobbs: Eliot never said that.
[2:20:07] Bob Dobbs: So you look at Lewis.
[2:20:08] Bob Dobbs: He understood the technology.
[2:20:11] Bob Dobbs: From a cultured artist point of view,
[2:20:13] Bob Dobbs: Pound knew it from another level,
[2:20:16] Bob Dobbs: and then
[2:20:17] Bob Dobbs: Joyce knew it from the verbal level,
[2:20:19] Bob Dobbs: and Eliot was the bureaucrat in the middle sorting through them.
[2:20:23] Bob Dobbs: It was the blander guy.
[2:20:25] Bob Dobbs: He still really wrote word stuff,
[2:20:27] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:20:29] Bob Dobbs: poetry.
[2:20:30] Bob Dobbs: And he's the executive at Faber and Faber,
[2:20:33] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:20:34] Bob Dobbs: keeping those guys alive by publishing them.
[2:20:37] Bob Dobbs: But the interplay of the four guys is really interesting.
[2:20:40] Cameron McEwen: Oh,
[2:20:40] Cameron McEwen: for sure.
[2:20:41] Cameron McEwen: For absolutely sure.
[2:20:42] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan synthesizes them or synergizes different things.
[2:20:46] Bob Dobbs: He figures out how to use them without becoming a philosophical system,
[2:20:52] Bob Dobbs: to be the Menippean or the Varronian.
[2:20:54] Bob Dobbs: And that's what I did with the later,
[2:20:58] Bob Dobbs: quote,
[2:20:58] Bob Dobbs: holy offices.
[2:20:59] Bob Dobbs: His holy offices were those four guys plus Yeats.
[2:21:02] Bob Dobbs: And so I had the later holy offices,
[2:21:05] Cameron McEwen: which is actually...
[2:21:07] Bob Dobbs: What?
[2:21:08] Cameron McEwen: Before I forget,
[2:21:09] Cameron McEwen: I just want to point out that the
[2:21:12] Cameron McEwen: Xenochrony...
[2:21:14] Bob Dobbs: Xenochrony. It's synchrony with strangers.
[2:21:16] Bob Dobbs: Xenochrony.
[2:21:18] Bob Dobbs: N-Y.
[2:21:19] Cameron McEwen: Xenochrony replays what
[2:21:25] Cameron McEwen: Burroughs got from,
[2:21:27] Cameron McEwen: is it Brion Gysin?
[2:21:29] Bob Dobbs: Brion Gysin,
[2:21:30] Bob Dobbs: who was a Canadian.
[2:21:31] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[2:21:32] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[2:21:32] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[2:21:33] Cameron McEwen: So he was the guy that came up with the cut-up method.
[2:21:36] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:21:37] Cameron McEwen: And the music of
[2:21:40] Cameron McEwen: Zappa is the cut-up method that applied to music.
[2:21:45] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:21:46] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[2:21:46] Cameron McEwen: So the cut-up method focuses what needs to be in between in order for anything to be.
[2:22:00] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:22:00] Bob Dobbs: you see,
[2:22:00] Bob Dobbs: Burroughs and Zappa,
[2:22:03] Bob Dobbs: they're not as comprehensive as Finnegans Wake.
[2:22:06] Bob Dobbs: It's the ultimate cut-up,
[2:22:08] Bob Dobbs: but it still looks like it's verbal.
[2:22:10] Bob Dobbs: It took McLuhan through Lewis and Innis to see the technologies in it.
[2:22:16] Bob Dobbs: in the thunders and that makes it that's another level because in war and peace of Global Village he talks about symbolism and he says you know the the seer sees through the culture x-rays the culture and has symbolic things but to see that television movies radio are are environments that are symbolic that's
[2:22:35] Bob Dobbs: beyond eye ear symbolism or the occult or magic or poetic symbolism of the 19th century.
[2:22:43] Bob Dobbs: That's still stuck with the eye and ear.
[2:22:45] Bob Dobbs: You then get to the tactile,
[2:22:46] Bob Dobbs: and then when you see whole environments are symbolic,
[2:22:49] Bob Dobbs: and that's what he did.
[2:22:50] Bob Dobbs: He presented a history of the symbolic environments that led us to here.
[2:22:54] Bob Dobbs: That's mythic stages.
[2:22:58] Bob Dobbs: See,
[2:22:58] Bob Dobbs: symbolism is environments.
[2:23:01] Bob Dobbs: Nobody did that in symbolism.
[2:23:05] Cameron McEwen: You think that that's what the magnetic city is in
[2:23:08] Cameron McEwen: Lewis? Yeah,
[2:23:09] Bob Dobbs: magnetic city is a major symbol,
[2:23:13] Bob Dobbs: and that's environmental.
[2:23:15] Bob Dobbs: So,
[2:23:15] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:23:16] Bob Dobbs: in War and Peace,
[2:23:16] Bob Dobbs: you look up the word symbolism.
[2:23:17] Bob Dobbs: He has a section,
[2:23:18] Bob Dobbs: like in the middle of the book,
[2:23:19] Bob Dobbs: about symbolism,
[2:23:21] Bob Dobbs: and then he says it applies to environments today,
[2:23:25] Bob Dobbs: not motifs in poems or novels or movies.
[2:23:30] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[2:23:31] Cameron McEwen: So that's what he always said about,
[2:23:35] Cameron McEwen: what Lewis said about art,
[2:23:38] Cameron McEwen: and McLuhan says he,
[2:23:40] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan,
[2:23:41] Cameron McEwen: took to be about society.
[2:23:43] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:23:43] Bob Dobbs: the teaching machines.
[2:23:45] Cameron McEwen: Yes.
[2:23:48] Bob Dobbs: So then it all shrinks down to the co-anesthetic,
[2:23:51] Bob Dobbs: and everybody's putting it in the driver's seat.
[2:23:54] Bob Dobbs: That's what my chart is showing,
[2:23:55] Bob Dobbs: the holeopathic shrinking of radio.
[2:23:58] Bob Dobbs: Remember,
[2:23:59] Bob Dobbs: it's holeopathic radio slash satellite.
[2:24:02] Bob Dobbs: So the satellite's a global theater,
[2:24:04] Bob Dobbs: which is shrinking,
[2:24:05] Bob Dobbs: and there's the radio part of this global theater,
[2:24:09] Bob Dobbs: and that becomes holeopathized.
[2:24:11] Bob Dobbs: And so they're all shrinking and merging.
[2:24:13] Bob Dobbs: and not merging and becoming tactile interplay.
[2:24:16] Bob Dobbs: And
[2:24:17] Bob Dobbs: I spell this out.
[2:24:18] Bob Dobbs: I'll send you my memo to Prince Charles.
[2:24:21] Bob Dobbs: And you can look at...
[2:24:23] Bob Dobbs: As a matter of fact,
[2:24:23] Bob Dobbs: I've made a chart from a key point where I run through the history of media from 1840 to 2020 in the memo to Prince Charles that I did in 87.
[2:24:34] Bob Dobbs: And I was looking back through it.
[2:24:36] Bob Dobbs: So I can make a little pricey chart.
[2:24:38] Bob Dobbs: So I'll send you that,
[2:24:40] Bob Dobbs: the quote part of the memo.
[2:24:42] Bob Dobbs: It deals with the history of technologies and then the way I adapt it and I make a chart out of it.
[2:24:48] Bob Dobbs: And then,
[2:24:48] Bob Dobbs: of course,
[2:24:49] Bob Dobbs: the tiny note chart came from that,
[2:24:50] Bob Dobbs: too.
[2:24:51] Bob Dobbs: But just like
[2:24:55] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan, you read Lewis,
[2:24:56] Bob Dobbs: there's so much Lewis and McLuhan.
[2:24:59] Bob Dobbs: He extracted,
[2:25:00] Bob Dobbs: replayed these guys,
[2:25:01] Bob Dobbs: which is what I have on the chart.
[2:25:03] Bob Dobbs: I got McLuhan redoing Lewis.
[2:25:07] Bob Dobbs: LaRouche redoes Ezra Pound.
[2:25:09] Bob Dobbs: Paranoia.
[2:25:11] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan Schizophrenia,
[2:25:12] Bob Dobbs: Thompson redoes
[2:25:14] Bob Dobbs: Eliot, and Thompson literally ran Lindisfarne Press.
[2:25:18] Bob Dobbs: So he published all these greeny guys,
[2:25:22] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:25:22] Bob Dobbs: James Lovelock,
[2:25:24] Bob Dobbs: Ralph Abraham,
[2:25:26] Bob Dobbs: Lynn Margulis,
[2:25:28] Bob Dobbs: these eco guys,
[2:25:30] Bob Dobbs: Gaia,
[2:25:30] Bob Dobbs: James Lovelock.
[2:25:31] Bob Dobbs: So he,
[2:25:32] Bob Dobbs: it was Eliot,
[2:25:33] Bob Dobbs: he published them in Lindisfarne Press.
[2:25:36] Bob Dobbs: And then you've got...
[2:25:40] Bob Dobbs: Kroker's talking about robots environmentally,
[2:25:43] Bob Dobbs: like McLuhan,
[2:25:44] Bob Dobbs: and Beter talks about organic robotoids,
[2:25:46] Bob Dobbs: what was happening in secret labs of making clones and stuff.
[2:25:50] Bob Dobbs: He called them organic robotoids.
[2:25:52] Bob Dobbs: So,
[2:25:53] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:25:54] Bob Dobbs: Beter and Kroker replay
[2:25:57] Bob Dobbs: Yeats.
[2:25:58] Bob Dobbs: And it was hard justifying that,
[2:26:01] Bob Dobbs: but basically
[2:26:02] Bob Dobbs: Yeats was a nostalgic guy for the culture of
[2:26:07] Bob Dobbs: Ireland.
[2:26:07] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[2:26:08] Bob Dobbs: he's trying to bring back the history of Ireland culture to counter the European cultures.
[2:26:13] Bob Dobbs: Kroker does that,
[2:26:15] Bob Dobbs: in a way,
[2:26:15] Bob Dobbs: and Beder.
[2:26:17] Bob Dobbs: But that's a complex topic.
[2:26:19] Bob Dobbs: But
[2:26:20] Bob Dobbs: I had to stick
[2:26:21] Bob Dobbs: Yeats in there,
[2:26:22] Bob Dobbs: so I put them in there.
[2:26:23] Bob Dobbs: It's literally
[2:26:25] Bob Dobbs: Pound and LaRouche,
[2:26:26] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan and Lewis,
[2:26:28] Bob Dobbs: me and Joyce,
[2:26:29] Bob Dobbs: Thompson and Eliot.
[2:26:31] Bob Dobbs: But
[2:26:32] Bob Dobbs: Yeats is an odd man out,
[2:26:34] Bob Dobbs: but I had to stick him in there because he...
[2:26:37] Bob Dobbs: He was influential,
[2:26:38] Bob Dobbs: too,
[2:26:38] Bob Dobbs: in all these guys.
[2:26:39] Bob Dobbs: And McLuhan.
[2:26:40] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan used a few themes from him.
[2:26:42] Bob Dobbs: So
[2:26:43] Bob Dobbs: I say...
[2:26:43] Cameron McEwen: And you know that Pound was Yeats'
[2:26:46] Cameron McEwen: secretary.
[2:26:47] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[2:26:48] Cameron McEwen: In the war years.
[2:26:49] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:26:50] Bob Dobbs: And then Yeats wanted to hang out with...
[2:26:52] Bob Dobbs: That's World War I,
[2:26:53] Bob Dobbs: right?
[2:26:55] Bob Dobbs: And then Yeats wants to live with Pound.
[2:27:00] Cameron McEwen: I know Pound went to live with Yeats.
[2:27:04] Bob Dobbs: In England?
[2:27:06] Cameron McEwen: Yes,
[2:27:06] Cameron McEwen: outside of London.
[2:27:08] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:27:08] Bob Dobbs: I thought it was Yeats wanting to hang out with Pound because he knew Pound and Lewis had something going and he wanted to see what the younger guys were doing.
[2:27:16] Bob Dobbs: But,
[2:27:16] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:27:17] Bob Dobbs: maybe you're right.
[2:27:18] Bob Dobbs: It was Pound.
[2:27:18] Bob Dobbs: But he learned from Pound.
[2:27:21] Bob Dobbs: Pound went to hang out with him,
[2:27:23] Bob Dobbs: like Joyce,
[2:27:24] Bob Dobbs: remember?
[2:27:24] Bob Dobbs: He says to Yeats,
[2:27:25] Bob Dobbs: you're too old for me,
[2:27:27] Bob Dobbs: for you to learn anything from me.
[2:27:29] Bob Dobbs: That's what the kid said.
[2:27:31] Bob Dobbs: Joyce the kid said to Yeats.
[2:27:33] Bob Dobbs: So that was acted out between Pound and
[2:27:37] Bob Dobbs: Yeats, their tactile interplay.
[2:27:40] Bob Dobbs: One day one's a student and the other isn't,
[2:27:42] Bob Dobbs: and the next day the other guy's a student.
[2:27:45] Cameron McEwen: Correct,
[2:27:45] Cameron McEwen: correct.
[2:27:46] Bob Dobbs: You know,
[2:27:47] Bob Dobbs: it's a creative dialogue.
[2:27:47] Cameron McEwen: It's interesting because of America and Europe.
[2:27:52] Bob Dobbs: Say it again?
[2:27:54] Cameron McEwen: It's an interesting interplay between these individuals and styles of poetry,
[2:28:00] Cameron McEwen: between America and
[2:28:02] Cameron McEwen: Europe.
[2:28:04] Bob Dobbs: Which is what's happening in World War I.
[2:28:07] Bob Dobbs: Europeans learning about Americans in Europe.
[2:28:14] Bob Dobbs: So then
[2:28:16] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan and Zappa represent holeopathic satellite TV.
[2:28:23] Bob Dobbs: Then that becomes a meme in the Android meme phase where it's not human.
[2:28:26] Bob Dobbs: It's machines extending machines.
[2:28:29] Bob Dobbs: So there's another level to those guys.
[2:28:32] Bob Dobbs: so that McLuhan and Zappa are just elements of a larger environment that's symbolic.
[2:28:43] Bob Dobbs: Then you have the interplay of the four symbolic media virtualized into becoming memes,
[2:28:52] Bob Dobbs: symbolic memes,
[2:28:54] Bob Dobbs: and then that's revolving around the anthropomorphic physical,
[2:28:58] Bob Dobbs: which is things getting more and more raw to the basics.
[2:29:03] Bob Dobbs: where everybody's trying to figure out what it is to be human or can we even have a human can my stuff that i'm an expert on can it be anthropomorphized you know and and that's where we're at where it failed and what did you just say the
[2:29:20] Bob Dobbs: anthropomorphic fails everybody's attempt to answer to look oh yeah exactly yeah yeah that's what i keep saying about uh jordan peterson yeah uh if he he thinks Thank you.
[2:29:33] Cameron McEwen: that the
[2:29:34] Cameron McEwen: AP, he doesn't know he's talking about the AP,
[2:29:37] Cameron McEwen: but he thinks that the
[2:29:38] Cameron McEwen: AP as hero can establish itself.
[2:29:44] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[2:29:45] Cameron McEwen: I mean,
[2:29:45] Cameron McEwen: it's silly.
[2:29:46] Bob Dobbs: I don't even listen to him.
[2:29:48] Cameron McEwen: And he identifies with that.
[2:29:50] Bob Dobbs: Yep.
[2:29:52] Cameron McEwen: He thinks that he's sort of the voice of the future.
[2:29:54] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[2:29:55] Bob Dobbs: And remember,
[2:29:57] Bob Dobbs: as he became famous five or six years ago,
[2:30:00] Bob Dobbs: suddenly he said in some early interviews,
[2:30:02] Bob Dobbs: to me.
[2:30:03] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:30:03] Bob Dobbs: maybe I should read a little more McLuhan.
[2:30:04] Bob Dobbs: Something got to him,
[2:30:06] Bob Dobbs: and he said,
[2:30:07] Bob Dobbs: oh,
[2:30:07] Bob Dobbs: yeah,
[2:30:07] Bob Dobbs: that's interesting.
[2:30:09] Bob Dobbs: And he is a replay of the McLuhan phenomenon in the wrong order.
[2:30:16] Cameron McEwen: Correct.
[2:30:16] Bob Dobbs: The content guy or something.
[2:30:18] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?
[2:30:19] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[2:30:20] Cameron McEwen: I've got a post on this,
[2:30:21] Cameron McEwen: actually.
[2:30:22] Cameron McEwen: Maybe I'll send you a link.
[2:30:24] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:30:25] Bob Dobbs: he redoes McLuhan,
[2:30:26] Bob Dobbs: and in a way,
[2:30:27] Bob Dobbs: he's more successful because he's a little more wrong.
[2:30:32] Bob Dobbs: He's old-fashioned.
[2:30:35] Bob Dobbs: But if you've got a figure back to the quote,
[2:30:39] Bob Dobbs: man is both figure and ground,
[2:30:41] Bob Dobbs: the individual as ground,
[2:30:44] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan was that,
[2:30:45] Bob Dobbs: but nobody noticed that,
[2:30:47] Bob Dobbs: but it's now where everybody is ground,
[2:30:50] Bob Dobbs: both figure and message and content,
[2:30:52] Bob Dobbs: and figure and ground,
[2:30:55] Bob Dobbs: holeopathic individual mythic stages and retrievals.
[2:30:59] Bob Dobbs: He is so much that,
[2:31:00] Bob Dobbs: what I described in the memo.
[2:31:02] Bob Dobbs: He's a later phase of McLuhan.
[2:31:06] Bob Dobbs: And,
[2:31:06] Bob Dobbs: of course,
[2:31:07] Bob Dobbs: it's what McLuhan predicted,
[2:31:08] Bob Dobbs: the retrieval of visual values.
[2:31:11] Bob Dobbs: He says that in Counterblast.
[2:31:13] Bob Dobbs: I mean,
[2:31:13] Bob Dobbs: culture is our business.
[2:31:14] Bob Dobbs: You're going to have,
[2:31:15] Bob Dobbs: basically,
[2:31:15] Bob Dobbs: he predicted the neoconservative valuation that showed up.
[2:31:19] Bob Dobbs: He is the guy bringing in the values argument,
[2:31:29] Bob Dobbs: the opposite of McLuhan.
[2:31:30] Bob Dobbs: But he comes out of the University of Toronto,
[2:31:32] Bob Dobbs: which is an interesting thing that he comes out of Toronto once again.
[2:31:36] Bob Dobbs: What is it about...
[2:31:36] Cameron McEwen: That's right.
[2:31:37] Bob Dobbs: What is it about Canada and Toronto,
[2:31:39] Bob Dobbs: you know?
[2:31:40] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[2:31:41] Cameron McEwen: what is it about two media gurus coming out of there and both being hated by the university and then both almost dying through physical diseases?
[2:31:56] Bob Dobbs: While they're riding the wave of success,
[2:31:58] Bob Dobbs: they're getting sick.
[2:31:59] Bob Dobbs: That's right.
[2:32:00] Cameron McEwen: Correct.
[2:32:01] Cameron McEwen: Correct.
[2:32:02] Cameron McEwen: But let me just point out something here that I think is highly interesting in this context.
[2:32:10] Cameron McEwen: In Pale Face,
[2:32:15] Cameron McEwen: Lewis brings up the concept of arrest.
[2:32:19] Cameron McEwen: And I haven't been able to find it anyplace else in
[2:32:23] Cameron McEwen: Lewis's work.
[2:32:25] Cameron McEwen: The concept of arrest,
[2:32:27] Cameron McEwen: he brings up talking about Spengler.
[2:32:31] Cameron McEwen: And
[2:32:32] Cameron McEwen: Lewis says that arrest is a manifestation of the time mind or the time.
[2:32:44] Bob Dobbs: Arrest is the aesthetic moment is time.
[2:32:48] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[2:32:48] Cameron McEwen: but for Lewis,
[2:32:49] Cameron McEwen: what it is,
[2:32:50] Cameron McEwen: is it's a manifestation of time.
[2:32:53] Cameron McEwen: And for McLuhan,
[2:32:55] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan,
[2:32:56] Cameron McEwen: I think,
[2:32:57] Cameron McEwen: takes,
[2:32:59] Cameron McEwen: he's reading.
[2:33:00] Cameron McEwen: Paleface,
[2:33:01] Cameron McEwen: in my view,
[2:33:02] Cameron McEwen: sometime in the late 40s.
[2:33:05] Cameron McEwen: He's already read a part of it when he was at
[2:33:08] Cameron McEwen: Cambridge. He read the part that was in the monthly criterion that Eliot published.
[2:33:15] Cameron McEwen: But he hadn't read,
[2:33:16] Cameron McEwen: and at least this is my guess,
[2:33:19] Cameron McEwen: I don't think he had read
[2:33:21] Cameron McEwen: Paleface when he wrote the Lewis essay in
[2:33:25] Cameron McEwen: 43 and published in 44.
[2:33:30] Cameron McEwen: So then he reads
[2:33:32] Cameron McEwen: Paleface, and there's a bunch of things in Paleface that makes him think.
[2:33:38] Cameron McEwen: And one of the things is this notion of arrest that
[2:33:44] Cameron McEwen: Lewis correlates with time.
[2:33:47] Cameron McEwen: And in Lewis,
[2:33:50] Cameron McEwen: arrest is one-dimensional.
[2:33:53] Cameron McEwen: So it's what
[2:33:56] Cameron McEwen: Spengler was doing,
[2:33:57] Cameron McEwen: for example.
[2:33:59] Cameron McEwen: Lewis charged Joyce with doing.
[2:34:03] Cameron McEwen: But
[2:34:04] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan gets arrested by this concept of arrest.
[2:34:09] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:34:10] Cameron McEwen: And he realizes that arrest is a break in time.
[2:34:16] Cameron McEwen: It's not the expression of time.
[2:34:18] Cameron McEwen: It's the break in time.
[2:34:20] Cameron McEwen: It's what is happening at every moment of perception.
[2:34:26] Cameron McEwen: So McLuhan is able to take something that Lewis has as a negative and see it as a positive and see it as a potential break with this circle that we've been talking about all morning.
[2:34:42] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:34:43] Cameron McEwen: Where through pale face and through this concept of arrest that I don't think is anywhere else in Lewis,
[2:34:54] Cameron McEwen: even in time and Western man.
[2:34:58] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan is able to take it and say,
[2:35:00] Cameron McEwen: oh,
[2:35:00] Cameron McEwen: that's the key to perception.
[2:35:03] Cameron McEwen: This arrest is what we're always doing,
[2:35:07] Cameron McEwen: but we don't know that we're doing it.
[2:35:09] Cameron McEwen: But the artist does it consciously.
[2:35:12] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:35:12] Bob Dobbs: and that's page 32 of Interior Landscape,
[2:35:16] Bob Dobbs: the essay on Joyce.
[2:35:18] Bob Dobbs: He does a liquidity and the aesthetic moment,
[2:35:21] Bob Dobbs: well,
[2:35:21] Bob Dobbs: the aesthetic moment is another.
[2:35:23] Bob Dobbs: But anyways,
[2:35:24] Bob Dobbs: the arrest is a big theme around page 32.
[2:35:28] Cameron McEwen: Yes,
[2:35:28] Cameron McEwen: well,
[2:35:29] Cameron McEwen: it sort of explodes for McLuhan around 1949,
[2:35:33] Cameron McEwen: 1950.
[2:35:37] Cameron McEwen: He realizes that this moment of arrest,
[2:35:42] Cameron McEwen: he can use in a different way from what Lewis does.
[2:35:46] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:35:46] Cameron McEwen: And he realizes that he has to apply it to himself.
[2:35:51] Cameron McEwen: So this is what...
[2:35:52] Cameron McEwen: produces the reversal around
[2:35:56] Cameron McEwen: 1950 of how McLuhan saw what he was doing.
[2:36:00] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[2:36:01] Bob Dobbs: And for years I would read that,
[2:36:03] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:36:03] Bob Dobbs: the two pages on arrests and the stages of apprehension and those themes,
[2:36:09] Bob Dobbs: and it took a long time to figure it out.
[2:36:12] Bob Dobbs: One aspect is he dropped that,
[2:36:14] Bob Dobbs: that we,
[2:36:16] Bob Dobbs: or he realized we haven't got a way to get an arrest right now.
[2:36:20] Bob Dobbs: There's too much flux.
[2:36:22] Bob Dobbs: So he was offering an arrest with the book,
[2:36:26] Bob Dobbs: with Gutenberg,
[2:36:27] Bob Dobbs: the epyllion known as Gutenberg Galaxy and Understanding Media.
[2:36:30] Bob Dobbs: That was an attempt to do the arrest as you're talking about it.
[2:36:33] Bob Dobbs: But it's a bit old-fashioned the way he talks about it in the
[2:36:36] Bob Dobbs: 30s, in the 50s.
[2:36:38] Bob Dobbs: But he is,
[2:36:39] Bob Dobbs: I think what you're saying,
[2:36:42] Bob Dobbs: redefining arrest is what he was trying to do.
[2:36:44] Bob Dobbs: But when you read page 32,
[2:36:48] Bob Dobbs: it's a bit limited.
[2:36:49] Bob Dobbs: It doesn't work,
[2:36:50] Bob Dobbs: I don't think.
[2:36:51] Bob Dobbs: Unless I didn't understand it.
[2:36:54] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[2:36:55] Cameron McEwen: I think the important thing would be to read those pages,
[2:36:59] Cameron McEwen: reread those pages,
[2:37:00] Cameron McEwen: but from the point of view of what we've been talking about today.
[2:37:03] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:37:04] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[2:37:04] Cameron McEwen: Because what McLuhan is saying is that we always do arrest.
[2:37:09] Cameron McEwen: We can't do anything other than do arrest as humans.
[2:37:13] Cameron McEwen: That's all we ever do.
[2:37:14] Cameron McEwen: But we don't know what we're doing.
[2:37:17] Cameron McEwen: So what
[2:37:18] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan is saying is if we could become conscious,
[2:37:23] Cameron McEwen: of what we are already doing,
[2:37:27] Cameron McEwen: then that would provide the door that we need to communicate it last.
[2:37:33] Bob Dobbs: Right.
[2:37:34] Bob Dobbs: That would be the way out.
[2:37:35] Bob Dobbs: The arrest is what we do as unconscious little people.
[2:37:39] Bob Dobbs: And then he says the artist makes a huge arrest and presents an iconic epiphany about what everybody's doing.
[2:37:47] Bob Dobbs: Correct.
[2:37:48] Bob Dobbs: Into an art form.
[2:37:49] Cameron McEwen: Right.
[2:37:49] Cameron McEwen: So the artist is doing a replay.
[2:37:52] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:37:55] Cameron McEwen: And so then McLuhan realizes,
[2:37:57] Cameron McEwen: well,
[2:37:57] Cameron McEwen: wait a minute.
[2:37:58] Cameron McEwen: Instead of trying to go forward to communicate,
[2:38:02] Cameron McEwen: we need to go backward.
[2:38:05] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[2:38:07] Cameron McEwen: So what McLuhan realizes through
[2:38:10] Cameron McEwen: Lewis is that the arrest is the key to communication,
[2:38:15] Cameron McEwen: but not forward.
[2:38:18] Bob Dobbs: That's what?
[2:38:19] Bob Dobbs: Not forward?
[2:38:20] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[2:38:21] Cameron McEwen: not forward.
[2:38:22] Cameron McEwen: So communication doesn't take place through anybody saying a word and then it's understood and we can sort of go forward that way.
[2:38:36] Cameron McEwen: No,
[2:38:36] Cameron McEwen: what happens is somebody says a word and that awakens what is already there.
[2:38:42] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:38:43] Bob Dobbs: and so there's the interplay between feedback and feed forward that he plays with in War and Peace in the Global Village.
[2:38:51] Bob Dobbs: Feed forward is the feedback we need to overcome the forward illusion.
[2:38:56] Bob Dobbs: So we go back to feedback.
[2:39:01] Bob Dobbs: He feeds back.
[2:39:04] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan was very interested in those years around 1950 in the
[2:39:13] Cameron McEwen: Macy seminars.
[2:39:15] Cameron McEwen: And in one of those,
[2:39:17] Cameron McEwen: I think in 1952,
[2:39:21] Cameron McEwen: I.A.
[2:39:22] Cameron McEwen: Richards,
[2:39:23] Cameron McEwen: his old teacher from Cambridge,
[2:39:26] Cameron McEwen: goes into feed forward.
[2:39:28] Cameron McEwen: And the feed forward is a new mode of feedback.
[2:39:35] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:39:36] Cameron McEwen: Right?
[2:39:37] Cameron McEwen: So that was very,
[2:39:39] Cameron McEwen: as you were just saying,
[2:39:40] Cameron McEwen: that's very important to McLuhan right at that point,
[2:39:43] Cameron McEwen: right where he realizes he needs to do a whole different thing.
[2:39:51] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[2:39:51] Cameron McEwen: now he,
[2:39:52] Bob Dobbs: Don Theall,
[2:39:54] Bob Dobbs: coming out of Yale,
[2:39:54] Bob Dobbs: gave him cybernetics in 1950,
[2:39:58] Bob Dobbs: and McLuhan wasn't aware of that.
[2:40:00] Bob Dobbs: So he reads Wiener's book,
[2:40:02] Bob Dobbs: and then he writes,
[2:40:03] Bob Dobbs: you'll see a letter around that time,
[2:40:04] Bob Dobbs: he says,
[2:40:04] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:40:05] Bob Dobbs: the literary clacks,
[2:40:06] Bob Dobbs: he calls them,
[2:40:07] Bob Dobbs: ain't doing anything.
[2:40:08] Bob Dobbs: The stuff that's being done by,
[2:40:10] Bob Dobbs: they would be the Macy conferences,
[2:40:12] Bob Dobbs: but he just says,
[2:40:13] Bob Dobbs: the guys down at MIT is who we should be looking at as the new artists.
[2:40:18] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[2:40:19] Cameron McEwen: I think you're talking about a letter.
[2:40:20] Cameron McEwen: to pound,
[2:40:24] Cameron McEwen: where he does say that.
[2:40:26] Cameron McEwen: But as I've pointed out in the past,
[2:40:29] Cameron McEwen: he wasn't only getting this from Don,
[2:40:32] Cameron McEwen: he was also getting this from Giedion.
[2:40:35] Cameron McEwen: Because right at this time,
[2:40:38] Cameron McEwen: I think it was 1950,
[2:40:39] Cameron McEwen: 1951,
[2:40:42] Cameron McEwen: Giedion was appointed to be a lecturer at
[2:40:47] Cameron McEwen: MIT.
[2:40:49] Cameron McEwen: That's right.
[2:40:49] Cameron McEwen: This was
[2:40:50] Cameron McEwen: 10 years after he had lectured at Harvard and the lectures at Harvard became the science,
[2:41:01] Cameron McEwen: technology,
[2:41:01] Cameron McEwen: and architecture.
[2:41:04] Cameron McEwen: And what artifact did you say?
[2:41:06] Cameron McEwen: Space technology and architecture.
[2:41:08] Cameron McEwen: I'm sorry.
[2:41:09] Bob Dobbs: What did you say?
[2:41:13] Cameron McEwen: The lectures of Giedion in 1939 at Harvard became space.
[2:41:19] Cameron McEwen: technology and architecture.
[2:41:22] Bob Dobbs: Well,
[2:41:22] Bob Dobbs: he has space-time in architecture.
[2:41:24] Bob Dobbs: I think that's the title.
[2:41:26] Cameron McEwen: Oh,
[2:41:26] Cameron McEwen: I may be mispronouncing.
[2:41:27] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[2:41:27] Cameron McEwen: yeah.
[2:41:29] Cameron McEwen: I always think of it as S-T-A,
[2:41:32] Cameron McEwen: and when I go to articulate it,
[2:41:35] Cameron McEwen: I can never remember what the T is.
[2:41:38] Cameron McEwen: No,
[2:41:38] Cameron McEwen: it's simple.
[2:41:39] Bob Dobbs: It's space-time.
[2:41:40] Cameron McEwen: Remember,
[2:41:41] Bob Dobbs: he's a friend of Joyce,
[2:41:42] Bob Dobbs: and Joyce is playing with space-time in Finnegans Wake,
[2:41:44] Bob Dobbs: and so he's aware of that because he's talking to Joyce all the time.
[2:41:47] Bob Dobbs: in that late 30s.
[2:41:48] Cameron McEwen: Yes,
[2:41:49] Cameron McEwen: absolutely,
[2:41:49] Cameron McEwen: especially his wife was.
[2:41:52] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:41:53] Bob Dobbs: so
[2:41:54] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan, he didn't meet Joyce,
[2:41:56] Bob Dobbs: but he met Joyce through Giedion.
[2:41:59] Cameron McEwen: Well,
[2:42:01] Cameron McEwen: through a bunch of different people,
[2:42:02] Cameron McEwen: for sure.
[2:42:06] Cameron McEwen: All I'm trying to say is that when
[2:42:08] Cameron McEwen: Giedion started the lecture at
[2:42:11] Cameron McEwen: MIT, this brought together concerns that McLuhan had from 1943,
[2:42:20] Cameron McEwen: which is when he met Giedion and started to read Giedion's stuff,
[2:42:24] Cameron McEwen: especially on the orchestration of...
[2:42:31] Cameron McEwen: what you could call the noise of the world.
[2:42:35] Cameron McEwen: All of a sudden,
[2:42:36] Cameron McEwen: he realizes that what Giedion is talking about has been mechanized in a certain way.
[2:42:47] Cameron McEwen: And so this plays into this whole stuff of arrest,
[2:42:52] Cameron McEwen: of arrest becoming intelligible,
[2:42:59] Cameron McEwen: In becoming intelligible,
[2:43:00] Cameron McEwen: it becomes mechanized.
[2:43:02] Cameron McEwen: So how were we to think of all of this stuff?
[2:43:07] Cameron McEwen: And it calls McLuhan away from the kind of Leavis morality thinking.
[2:43:16] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.
[2:43:16] Cameron McEwen: And introduces him to the idea that,
[2:43:20] Cameron McEwen: no,
[2:43:21] Cameron McEwen: what we have to do is we have to make intelligible what we're already doing,
[2:43:27] Cameron McEwen: which is what he...
[2:43:28] Cameron McEwen: He calls technique an arrest in 1950,
[2:43:32] Cameron McEwen: 1951.
[2:43:35] Bob Dobbs: How to make the environment symbolic,
[2:43:38] Bob Dobbs: the new symbolism.
[2:43:40] Cameron McEwen: Right,
[2:43:42] Cameron McEwen: which we cannot do through creativity.
[2:43:45] Cameron McEwen: We can only do by articulating what we are already articulating.
[2:43:51] Bob Dobbs: Right,
[2:43:52] Bob Dobbs: so there's Giedion in 1950 at MIT.
[2:43:58] Bob Dobbs: It would be interesting to look at the correspondence going on,
[2:44:01] Bob Dobbs: if any,
[2:44:02] Bob Dobbs: in that few years between them.
[2:44:05] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[2:44:05] Cameron McEwen: I've tried to do that,
[2:44:07] Cameron McEwen: but
[2:44:10] Cameron McEwen: I wasn't able to find anything interesting.
[2:44:14] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[2:44:15] Bob Dobbs: I mean,
[2:44:15] Bob Dobbs: you've looked at the actual correspondence.
[2:44:18] Cameron McEwen: Yes.
[2:44:18] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[2:44:19] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:44:19] Cameron McEwen: the correspondence between Giedion and McLuhan is in Zurich,
[2:44:24] Bob Dobbs: and I have all of that.
[2:44:25] Cameron McEwen: But it...
[2:44:27] Cameron McEwen: It's right around that period.
[2:44:29] Cameron McEwen: It's not very enlightening.
[2:44:32] Bob Dobbs: Okay.
[2:44:33] Bob Dobbs: All right.
[2:44:33] Bob Dobbs: So
[2:44:34] Bob Dobbs: I got to go.
[2:44:35] Bob Dobbs: So we didn't get any words on the book,
[2:44:38] Bob Dobbs: but we got a lot of stuff around that quote.
[2:44:43] Bob Dobbs: We actually did a lot of interesting stuff tonight.
[2:44:46] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,
[2:44:46] Cameron McEwen: I thought so.
[2:44:47] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:44:48] Bob Dobbs: No,
[2:44:48] Bob Dobbs: it's really good.
[2:44:49] Bob Dobbs: So thanks for letting me talk about the iON stuff.
[2:44:53] Bob Dobbs: That's controversial to talk about that,
[2:44:55] Bob Dobbs: But it's what...
[2:44:57] Bob Dobbs: I was thinking about when I wrote the thing,
[2:44:59] Bob Dobbs: you know,
[2:44:59] Bob Dobbs: what's the tech body?
[2:45:01] Bob Dobbs: What is the tech body?
[2:45:01] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,
[2:45:02] Cameron McEwen: what you were thinking ahead to.
[2:45:03] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:45:05] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[2:45:05] Bob Dobbs: so
[2:45:08] Bob Dobbs: I think that's it.
[2:45:09] Bob Dobbs: Maybe we'll talk next week.
[2:45:11] Bob Dobbs: We'll see if it works out.
[2:45:13] Cameron McEwen: See how your time works out.
[2:45:14] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.
[2:45:16] Bob Dobbs: Okay,
[2:45:16] Bob Dobbs: great.
[2:45:16] Bob Dobbs: Thanks a lot,
[2:45:17] Bob Dobbs: Cameron.
[2:45:18] Cameron McEwen: You too.
[2:45:19] Cameron McEwen: Ciao,
[2:45:19] Bob Dobbs: ciao.
[2:45:19] Bob Dobbs: Yep,
[2:45:20] Bob Dobbs: bye.