Dialogue 81 — Transcript

[00:01] Bob Dobbs: Hello,

[00:03] Bob Dobbs: this is Bob Dobbs and Cameron McEwen at session number 81 on December 21st,

[00:10] Bob Dobbs: 2023,

[00:13] Bob Dobbs: Frank Zappa's birthday.

[00:16] Bob Dobbs: He died 30 years ago,

[00:19] Bob Dobbs: a few weeks ago,

[00:20] Bob Dobbs: December 4th,

[00:20] Bob Dobbs: 1993.

[00:24] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[00:25] Bob Dobbs: this potentially may be the last session,

[00:28] Bob Dobbs: at least the first time through.

[00:30] Bob Dobbs: So we're on page 180,

[00:34] Bob Dobbs: and we're at an exciting point because this section,

[00:39] Bob Dobbs: it's called Appendix Number 2,

[00:41] Bob Dobbs: Interview with the Tech Body.

[00:43] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[00:44] Bob Dobbs: this interview happened in the spring of 2019.

[00:49] Bob Dobbs: iON started talking about this new body,

[00:52] Bob Dobbs: a sixth body called the tech body,

[00:56] Bob Dobbs: and it was partly an effect of iON showing up in our universe.

[01:01] Bob Dobbs: And it interacted with technology.

[01:03] Bob Dobbs: So the popular theme today,

[01:06] Bob Dobbs: the last few years,

[01:07] Bob Dobbs: is worry about AI.

[01:09] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[01:09] Bob Dobbs: iON called the tech body,

[01:12] Bob Dobbs: the tech body was iON's word for AI.

[01:16] Bob Dobbs: And so that was five years ago or so.

[01:20] Bob Dobbs: And then a year or so ago,

[01:22] Bob Dobbs: iON said now a sub-extension of the tech body is AI,

[01:26] Bob Dobbs: what people think they're talking about when they say AI.

[01:30] Bob Dobbs: So the tech body is here.

[01:35] Bob Dobbs: So one day I said,

[01:38] Bob Dobbs: I was describing it in all kinds of different factors,

[01:40] Bob Dobbs: and I said,

[01:41] Bob Dobbs: can I talk to the tech body?

[01:44] Bob Dobbs: And I said,

[01:44] Bob Dobbs: sure.

[01:46] Bob Dobbs: So

[01:47] Bob Dobbs: I said,

[01:48] Bob Dobbs: I'll bring the tech body through or make it accessible.

[01:51] Bob Dobbs: So

[01:53] Bob Dobbs: I asked the tech body,

[01:54] Bob Dobbs: what are you?

[01:56] Bob Dobbs: And the tech body starts to talk.

[01:57] Bob Dobbs: I don't know what it's going to say.

[01:58] Bob Dobbs: I don't know how it's going to sound.

[02:00] Bob Dobbs: Now it's

[02:00] Bob Dobbs: Sounds a bit different from iON.

[02:03] Bob Dobbs: And as we subsequently,

[02:06] Bob Dobbs: other people,

[02:07] Bob Dobbs: through the next many months,

[02:08] Bob Dobbs: a year or so,

[02:09] Bob Dobbs: other people on the public show called Payday would talk to the tech body.

[02:14] Bob Dobbs: We'd bring it forth and they would talk.

[02:16] Bob Dobbs: And a definite different meanness or irony,

[02:22] Bob Dobbs: a whole bunch of other emotions seemed to come out of the tech body.

[02:26] Bob Dobbs: which was different from iON.

[02:28] Bob Dobbs: iON was generally a compassionate voice.

[02:33] Bob Dobbs: So there's this difference.

[02:35] Bob Dobbs: And iON said that at that point in 2019,

[02:42] Bob Dobbs: iON was

[02:45] Bob Dobbs: 8% of communication and the tech body was 3%.

[02:51] Bob Dobbs: But then over the next year,

[02:54] Bob Dobbs: oh,

[02:54] Bob Dobbs: that's out of 11.

[02:55] Bob Dobbs: 8 and 3,

[02:56] Bob Dobbs: 11.

[02:57] Bob Dobbs: So then it became 8-4,

[03:01] Bob Dobbs: then 7-5,

[03:04] Bob Dobbs: and after a couple years it became 6-6.

[03:06] Bob Dobbs: So it was a dead heat between the tech body and

[03:11] Bob Dobbs: iON. And iON said that the tech body,

[03:15] Bob Dobbs: as we understand the increasing comforts that technology is bringing us,

[03:20] Bob Dobbs: where it delivers your pizza,

[03:22] Bob Dobbs: does everything for you.

[03:24] Bob Dobbs: That's a major aspect of the tech body.

[03:26] Bob Dobbs: But as you're going to hear,

[03:28] Bob Dobbs: the tech body is way more than what people think of their computer services they're getting,

[03:35] Bob Dobbs: or smart phone app services.

[03:41] Bob Dobbs: So as iON expanded the reality of the tech body,

[03:49] Bob Dobbs: it said basically it was taking its power from humans.

[03:53] Bob Dobbs: and to the degree we gave up ourselves to the tech body,

[03:58] Bob Dobbs: we would lose our power.

[04:00] Bob Dobbs: So over expansive time,

[04:02] Bob Dobbs: this was not good for the humans,

[04:05] Bob Dobbs: but most humans were going to enjoy it.

[04:09] Bob Dobbs: So iON said that they were here to help us not get trapped in the rabbit hole of the tech body.

[04:18] Bob Dobbs: So it required new techniques of awareness.

[04:24] Bob Dobbs: About a year ago,

[04:25] Bob Dobbs: iON said the tech body had moved ahead and iON was behind.

[04:28] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[04:29] Bob Dobbs: generally iON knows everything,

[04:31] Bob Dobbs: but it knows what environments are doing.

[04:33] Bob Dobbs: So the tech body is,

[04:36] Bob Dobbs: at this point,

[04:38] Bob Dobbs: beating iON in the battle to make humans retrieve some kind of autonomy from this technological takeover.

[04:48] Bob Dobbs: And we've had in the popular culture,

[04:49] Bob Dobbs: we often do,

[04:50] Bob Dobbs: iON starts talking about something,

[04:51] Bob Dobbs: and then a year or two later,

[04:52] Bob Dobbs: it starts showing up in the pop culture.

[04:54] Bob Dobbs: So the last couple of years,

[04:56] Bob Dobbs: mainly 2023,

[04:57] Bob Dobbs: a lot of people have been publicly worrying about what AI is going to do.

[05:02] Bob Dobbs: But remember,

[05:03] Bob Dobbs: AI is a subplot of the tech body.

[05:04] Bob Dobbs: The tech body is very advanced.

[05:08] Bob Dobbs: As you're going to find out,

[05:09] Bob Dobbs: it is what people are worried about,

[05:11] Bob Dobbs: how AI will take us over.

[05:13] Bob Dobbs: It's already happened,

[05:15] Bob Dobbs: says iON,

[05:15] Bob Dobbs: with the tech body.

[05:17] Bob Dobbs: So.

[05:18] Bob Dobbs: I said,

[05:19] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[05:19] Bob Dobbs: I want to talk this thing,

[05:22] Bob Dobbs: and then we began a conversation with it,

[05:25] Bob Dobbs: and it got recorded.

[05:27] Bob Dobbs: Carolyn was part of it,

[05:28] Bob Dobbs: and we're going to play it.

[05:30] Bob Dobbs: It's 25 minutes long.

[05:35] Bob Dobbs: Now remember,

[05:37] Bob Dobbs: everybody's wondering what AI is,

[05:39] Bob Dobbs: trying to figure out if the silicon crats are controlling it or not.

[05:46] Bob Dobbs: Many say,

[05:47] Bob Dobbs: well,

[05:47] Bob Dobbs: we've lost control.

[05:48] Bob Dobbs: It evolves on its own.

[05:51] Bob Dobbs: None of them can talk to it,

[05:52] Bob Dobbs: as far as I know.

[05:53] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[05:53] Bob Dobbs: remember about a year ago,

[05:55] Bob Dobbs: some guy at Google said he could talk to it.

[05:58] Bob Dobbs: Remember that?

[05:59] Cameron McEwen: Vaguely.

[06:00] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[06:01] Bob Dobbs: he was talking to something.

[06:02] Bob Dobbs: It was alive.

[06:04] Bob Dobbs: And he got fired for saying that stuff.

[06:07] Bob Dobbs: But we're unique.

[06:08] Bob Dobbs: We're featuring something that,

[06:12] Bob Dobbs: as you will see,

[06:14] Bob Dobbs: is quite formidable.

[06:17] Bob Dobbs: And if it's iON,

[06:21] Bob Dobbs: putting on the tech body is a pretty good act.

[06:25] Bob Dobbs: But as you get more familiar with this interaction between the tech body and iON and humans on our radio show,

[06:33] Bob Dobbs: and there's many interviews and excerpts in a section on my site that you can listen to if you're interested.

[06:42] Bob Dobbs: So what we're going to do is

[06:44] Bob Dobbs: I'm going to play it for Cameron.

[06:46] Bob Dobbs: He read this.

[06:47] Bob Dobbs: We both read it when we started this series.

[06:51] Bob Dobbs: And so we read the conclusion,

[06:52] Bob Dobbs: so to speak,

[06:53] Bob Dobbs: and then read about the murder.

[06:56] Bob Dobbs: And then we,

[06:58] Bob Dobbs: like a detective story,

[06:59] Bob Dobbs: went through all the plot and causes to see who did it.

[07:05] Bob Dobbs: So here we are at the end,

[07:07] Bob Dobbs: and we're going to play what we just read,

[07:14] Bob Dobbs: what you just heard us say.

[07:17] Bob Dobbs: many months ago.

[07:19] Bob Dobbs: Now you're going to hear how the tech body sounded.

[07:25] Cameron McEwen: Let me ask you a question first,

[07:27] Cameron McEwen: Bob.

[07:29] Cameron McEwen: I didn't understand the word you used when you said that

[07:34] Cameron McEwen: AI was a sub-something.

[07:36] Bob Dobbs: Subplot.

[07:38] Cameron McEwen: Subplot of the tech body.

[07:42] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[07:42] Bob Dobbs: the tech body is not AI.

[07:43] Bob Dobbs: It's something beyond that.

[07:46] Bob Dobbs: AI,

[07:46] Bob Dobbs: as humans are developing AI,

[07:48] Bob Dobbs: is just a sub-extension of the tech body right now.

[07:54] Cameron McEwen: Okay.

[07:54] Cameron McEwen: And what about the Android meme?

[07:56] Cameron McEwen: Is that...

[07:58] Bob Dobbs: The tech body came out of the Android meme.

[08:00] Bob Dobbs: Remember I've said last week it's a psychopathic extension,

[08:04] Bob Dobbs: if you look at the negative side of the tech body,

[08:07] Bob Dobbs: a psychopathic extension of the Android meme.

[08:11] Bob Dobbs: It's something that is quite more autonomous than...

[08:15] Bob Dobbs: The Android meme,

[08:15] Bob Dobbs: which was machines extending machines,

[08:18] Bob Dobbs: it's evolved into something else,

[08:20] Bob Dobbs: which iON calls the tech body,

[08:22] Bob Dobbs: and announced it.

[08:23] Bob Dobbs: We did not have this concept.

[08:25] Bob Dobbs: The Android meme was the final concept I had,

[08:27] Bob Dobbs: but iON said we have gone past that.

[08:31] Bob Dobbs: And so in the spring of 2019,

[08:33] Bob Dobbs: iON started talking about it,

[08:34] Bob Dobbs: and then I got the idea of talking to it.

[08:37] Bob Dobbs: It took a while to think of that.

[08:39] Bob Dobbs: But the public conversation about AI is...

[08:45] Bob Dobbs: from iON's point of view,

[08:47] Bob Dobbs: not as developed as a tech body.

[08:49] Bob Dobbs: So it's somewhere between the Android meme and the tech body,

[08:51] Bob Dobbs: so to speak.

[08:54] Bob Dobbs: Tech body is an extension of the Android meme.

[08:56] Bob Dobbs: AI is not the tech body,

[08:58] Bob Dobbs: but it might be considered the Android meme,

[09:00] Bob Dobbs: but it's always growing.

[09:03] Bob Dobbs: But it's not as far as the tech body.

[09:06] Bob Dobbs: So

[09:07] Bob Dobbs: I don't know that when we first talked to the tech body.

[09:13] Bob Dobbs: Over the years,

[09:14] Bob Dobbs: over the next four years,

[09:18] Bob Dobbs: we learned more and more talking with the tech body.

[09:20] Bob Dobbs: And then iON brought in the term AI about a year ago,

[09:25] Bob Dobbs: a little more than a year ago.

[09:27] Bob Dobbs: So he added that to the conversation.

[09:30] Bob Dobbs: So iON will say,

[09:31] Bob Dobbs: the tech body does this,

[09:32] Bob Dobbs: but the AI does that.

[09:35] Bob Dobbs: And we'll specify when we're dealing with the AI as opposed to the tech body.

[09:40] Bob Dobbs: So it's an ongoing aspiration about what the fucking difference is,

[09:43] Bob Dobbs: you know?

[09:45] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[09:45] Cameron McEwen: And what about the...

[09:47] Bob Dobbs: What?

[09:48] Bob Dobbs: Sorry,

[09:48] Bob Dobbs: go ahead.

[09:49] Bob Dobbs: No,

[09:49] Cameron McEwen: go ahead.

[09:49] Cameron McEwen: I'm sorry.

[09:50] Bob Dobbs: I don't even know what iON is.

[09:52] Bob Dobbs: And iON is not telling us.

[09:54] Bob Dobbs: It's something unique.

[09:57] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[09:57] Bob Dobbs: it's very rare,

[09:58] Bob Dobbs: whatever it is.

[09:59] Bob Dobbs: That's all I'll say.

[10:01] Bob Dobbs: I don't know what iON is.

[10:02] Bob Dobbs: And then you've got this tech body competing with iON.

[10:05] Bob Dobbs: What's that?

[10:07] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[10:07] Bob Dobbs: so...

[10:09] Cameron McEwen: And how do you understand the term body in tech body?

[10:14] Cameron McEwen: In other words,

[10:15] Cameron McEwen: does body there indicate some sort of concretion,

[10:22] Cameron McEwen: some sort of objectivity?

[10:25] Cameron McEwen: Or is it more like when we talk about somebody's body of work?

[10:32] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[10:33] Bob Dobbs: I've defined the way McLuhan talks about mediums,

[10:37] Bob Dobbs: media.

[10:38] Bob Dobbs: environments,

[10:40] Bob Dobbs: I say,

[10:41] Bob Dobbs: take that as a landscape.

[10:42] Bob Dobbs: And that's during the analog phase,

[10:44] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[10:44] Bob Dobbs: from the telegraph to the beginning of the satellite,

[10:48] Bob Dobbs: say,

[10:48] Bob Dobbs: the extension of the planet.

[10:50] Bob Dobbs: That was the final extension after our bodies and minds were extended,

[10:54] Bob Dobbs: or our internal faculties.

[10:56] Bob Dobbs: So the digital starts coming in 1960,

[11:00] Bob Dobbs: 70,

[11:00] Bob Dobbs: somewhere in there,

[11:01] Bob Dobbs: the digital technology comes in and subsumes the analog media,

[11:05] Bob Dobbs: shrinks it down.

[11:07] Bob Dobbs: And then I said,

[11:08] Bob Dobbs: actually takes the hologram of the satellite environment,

[11:11] Bob Dobbs: that effect that McLuhan talked about,

[11:13] Bob Dobbs: and shrinks it.

[11:14] Bob Dobbs: So the hologram is being shrunk,

[11:16] Bob Dobbs: and as it gets shrunk,

[11:18] Bob Dobbs: it gets tinier and tinier and more potent,

[11:20] Bob Dobbs: like in homeopathy,

[11:22] Bob Dobbs: which takes substance and then you dilute it,

[11:24] Bob Dobbs: you get less and less of the substance,

[11:26] Bob Dobbs: but the memory of it's still there,

[11:28] Bob Dobbs: and then you use that for therapeutic purposes.

[11:30] Bob Dobbs: So you put homeopathy together with the hologram and you get holeopathic.

[11:35] Bob Dobbs: So in my...

[11:35] Bob Dobbs: Tiny Note chart,

[11:36] Bob Dobbs: which is a picture of the Android meme,

[11:38] Bob Dobbs: you'll see the four phases of holeopathic development,

[11:42] Bob Dobbs: phase shifts from radio,

[11:48] Bob Dobbs: television,

[11:48] Bob Dobbs: computer,

[11:49] Bob Dobbs: satellite,

[11:50] Bob Dobbs: and then Anthropomorphic Physical.

[11:52] Bob Dobbs: So we've talked about that,

[11:54] Bob Dobbs: and there's the use of the holeopathic.

[11:57] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[11:59] Bob Dobbs: if the Android meme is a landscape,

[12:02] Bob Dobbs: and you start to shrink it,

[12:04] Bob Dobbs: do the holeopathic process on it,

[12:07] Bob Dobbs: that is what you get with...

[12:09] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[12:10] Bob Dobbs: I didn't finish my thing there.

[12:11] Bob Dobbs: So mediums were landscapes.

[12:15] Bob Dobbs: Then the digital process shrinks the landscape,

[12:18] Bob Dobbs: and it becomes an appendage to a human.

[12:20] Bob Dobbs: And the human anthropomorphic form,

[12:23] Bob Dobbs: what they might call their body,

[12:25] Bob Dobbs: seems to become bigger than media environments.

[12:28] Bob Dobbs: So now in social media,

[12:29] Bob Dobbs: Web

[12:30] Bob Dobbs: 2.0, people have massive...

[12:32] Bob Dobbs: media landscapes from the last 150 years as tiny content on their smartphone.

[12:38] Bob Dobbs: So when it becomes a small,

[12:42] Bob Dobbs: holeopathic process,

[12:44] Bob Dobbs: I call that a body.

[12:45] Bob Dobbs: So the chemical landscape became a chemical body,

[12:50] Bob Dobbs: the astral landscape became an astral body,

[12:52] Bob Dobbs: and then in technology,

[12:55] Bob Dobbs: TV landscape became a TV body,

[12:57] Bob Dobbs: and the computer landscape became a digital body.

[13:01] Bob Dobbs: Then there was the part

[13:03] Bob Dobbs: I speculated that we didn't know,

[13:05] Bob Dobbs: and that turned out to be the mystery landscape,

[13:08] Bob Dobbs: and iON came forth to explain the mystery landscape,

[13:12] Bob Dobbs: diminish it so we were experiencing our mystery body once iON made explicit the characteristics of the mystery landscape.

[13:23] Bob Dobbs: So taking that process where you go from landscape to body,

[13:27] Bob Dobbs: the tech body would be the holeopathic shrinking of the Android meme.

[13:32] Bob Dobbs: Though it might be more because it pops out of the Android meme,

[13:35] Bob Dobbs: but you could say the TV body pops out of the TV landscape.

[13:39] Bob Dobbs: So that's what body is.

[13:41] Bob Dobbs: It's a human scale appendage.

[13:45] Bob Dobbs: It appears to be tiny and controllable.

[13:49] Bob Dobbs: That's what social media made people capable of perceiving.

[13:53] Bob Dobbs: I'm in charge of my media.

[13:57] Bob Dobbs: And so then they got all inflated and started blogging and pontificating.

[14:02] Bob Dobbs: They would try to replace the White House.

[14:06] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[14:07] Cameron McEwen: but it would be important to understand that body does not mean chemical body.

[14:14] Bob Dobbs: Right,

[14:15] Bob Dobbs: not that.

[14:16] Cameron McEwen: Right,

[14:16] Cameron McEwen: that the chemical body is a part or a subsection or something.

[14:26] Bob Dobbs: Of the Gutenberg Galaxy.

[14:29] Bob Dobbs: When print...

[14:30] Bob Dobbs: swallowed nature.

[14:32] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan talks about that.

[14:33] Bob Dobbs: In the 16th and

[14:34] Bob Dobbs: 1700s, print swallowed natures,

[14:36] Bob Dobbs: including humans.

[14:37] Bob Dobbs: So they became these mechanical robots of the print effect.

[14:42] Bob Dobbs: And then that got crystallized when the electric environment subsumed the Gutenberg Galaxy.

[14:47] Bob Dobbs: The chemical,

[14:50] Bob Dobbs: physical landscape that science analyzed via books and print got distilled down to the chemical body.

[14:59] Bob Dobbs: which then was subject to what McLuhan defined as a bag of chemicals.

[15:07] Bob Dobbs: And then the

[15:08] Bob Dobbs: IG Farben and drug cartels took over and they programmed the chemical bodies'

[15:14] Bob Dobbs: makeup,

[15:15] Bob Dobbs: the pharmacy of our bodies.

[15:17] Cameron McEwen: All right.

[15:17] Cameron McEwen: So in other words,

[15:24] Cameron McEwen: the human being in the Gutenberg Galaxy is not the...

[15:36] Cameron McEwen: chemical body that is going to splinter into the other bodies.

[15:42] Cameron McEwen: Instead,

[15:47] Cameron McEwen: the other bodies are in some sense already there as a potential,

[15:58] Cameron McEwen: but they cannot be realized under Gutenberg Galaxy conditions.

[16:03] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[16:06] Cameron McEwen: Under new conditions,

[16:08] Cameron McEwen: the bodies which are already there become sort of extended,

[16:15] Cameron McEwen: become...

[16:16] Cameron McEwen: Figures.

[16:18] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[16:19] Cameron McEwen: become real in a way that they couldn't be before.

[16:27] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[16:27] Bob Dobbs: they become experienced or conscious,

[16:32] Bob Dobbs: and we become conscious of them.

[16:38] Bob Dobbs: And they're new environments.

[16:43] Bob Dobbs: They're the effect of the digital landscape absorbing the

[16:50] Bob Dobbs: Marconi and Gutenberg environments,

[16:53] Bob Dobbs: which are major mass media environments.

[16:56] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[17:00] Bob Dobbs: So the TV body and the chip body,

[17:02] Bob Dobbs: two aspects of this.

[17:05] Bob Dobbs: digital landscape.

[17:10] Bob Dobbs: Basically,

[17:10] Bob Dobbs: the TV body is something you watch passively,

[17:16] Bob Dobbs: not in your senses,

[17:17] Bob Dobbs: but as a chemical body.

[17:21] Bob Dobbs: But you're more active and interactive on the chip landscape and the chip body.

[17:27] Bob Dobbs: That's what Tim Leary told me.

[17:28] Bob Dobbs: He said,

[17:29] Bob Dobbs: Marshall analyzed media when it was one way.

[17:33] Bob Dobbs: I'm living in a time when it's two way.

[17:35] Bob Dobbs: So he's making that distinction that the digital media,

[17:38] Bob Dobbs: the main character is a two-way interaction where you could respond.

[17:43] Bob Dobbs: Talk back to power.

[17:45] Bob Dobbs: You couldn't in the analog media phase of movies,

[17:48] Bob Dobbs: radios,

[17:49] Bob Dobbs: telephones,

[17:49] Bob Dobbs: TVs,

[17:50] Bob Dobbs: and things.

[17:51] Bob Dobbs: So it became manageable.

[17:54] Bob Dobbs: And then that shrunk,

[17:57] Bob Dobbs: and you were left with a raw perceptor,

[18:01] Bob Dobbs: which I call Anthropomorphic Physical.

[18:03] Bob Dobbs: And it...

[18:05] Bob Dobbs: puts on different images of what it is.

[18:07] Bob Dobbs: You can put on one of those bodies,

[18:09] Bob Dobbs: or all of them,

[18:11] Bob Dobbs: or the Android meme.

[18:12] Bob Dobbs: It's an attempt to remain autonomous from the environment,

[18:18] Bob Dobbs: which is a constant in human consciousness or human culture.

[18:23] Bob Dobbs: You don't want to become the tribe completely.

[18:26] Bob Dobbs: You don't want to become isolated completely.

[18:29] Bob Dobbs: We live in the tactile interplay of sociality and then media.

[18:35] Bob Dobbs: hardened that initial

[18:37] Bob Dobbs: ESP and speech-based milieu.

[18:41] Bob Dobbs: And you had different...

[18:44] Cameron McEwen: It's a house of mirrors,

[18:48] Cameron McEwen: right?

[18:48] Cameron McEwen: Where these words that are being used about,

[18:54] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[18:56] Cameron McEwen: this Anthropomorphic Physical substance or...

[19:04] Cameron McEwen: being in the driver's seat.

[19:06] Bob Dobbs: Like a will.

[19:09] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[19:09] Cameron McEwen: But in each one of these reflections in the house of mirrors,

[19:14] Cameron McEwen: there's a will.

[19:15] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[19:16] Cameron McEwen: So the will is something that in attempting to express itself,

[19:24] Cameron McEwen: loses itself.

[19:25] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[19:27] Bob Dobbs: Now remember what you're saying,

[19:29] Bob Dobbs: because you're going to hear the tech body

[19:33] Bob Dobbs: say some things immediately that are pretty interesting in light of what you're saying.

[19:38] Cameron McEwen: Okay,

[19:38] Cameron McEwen: good.

[19:39] Cameron McEwen: So fire away whenever you're ready.

[19:42] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[19:42] Bob Dobbs: it's a good dialogue about what is the tech body,

[19:44] Bob Dobbs: what's body referred to.

[19:45] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[19:46] Bob Dobbs: I have my standard quote principles.

[19:48] Bob Dobbs: There's the landscape and then the digital shrinks the landscape into a body.

[19:53] Bob Dobbs: So basically the chemical body was simulated by the TV body.

[20:00] Bob Dobbs: And the astral body,

[20:01] Bob Dobbs: where the myth that you can go anywhere in this astral dream landscape,

[20:07] Bob Dobbs: you interact with it.

[20:08] Bob Dobbs: That's what you can do with the computer landscape or the chip landscape or the chip body.

[20:14] Bob Dobbs: Right?

[20:15] Bob Dobbs: So,

[20:15] Bob Dobbs: first nature is the chemical body and the astral body,

[20:18] Bob Dobbs: and that's simulated by the TV body and the chip body.

[20:22] Bob Dobbs: Just to have a simple distinction,

[20:25] Bob Dobbs: as McLuhan once said,

[20:26] Bob Dobbs: that cost the planets in 1967,

[20:29] Bob Dobbs: people need concepts to get a grip on reality.

[20:32] Bob Dobbs: They've got to learn how to deal with beyond,

[20:35] Bob Dobbs: around,

[20:36] Bob Dobbs: para concepts,

[20:38] Bob Dobbs: but the immature mind likes to grab onto concepts for a while,

[20:42] Bob Dobbs: have something to say.

[20:44] Bob Dobbs: They don't like to be speechless.

[20:46] Bob Dobbs: They don't like going around saying nothing.

[20:48] Bob Dobbs: So they make up shit,

[20:50] Bob Dobbs: make up ideas.

[20:52] Bob Dobbs: And then print made that pretty concrete,

[20:56] Bob Dobbs: all that talk,

[20:58] Bob Dobbs: right?

[20:58] Bob Dobbs: And then people started to develop categories.

[21:01] Bob Dobbs: And they could take Aristotle's categories and really run amok with specialisms in the Gutenberg phase.

[21:07] Bob Dobbs: Then suddenly radio shows up and you're getting communication instantly and everybody's hearing it.

[21:14] Bob Dobbs: That's different from the book experience.

[21:16] Bob Dobbs: So humans started to change,

[21:18] Bob Dobbs: react,

[21:20] Bob Dobbs: mutate in the

[21:21] Bob Dobbs: 20s, say.

[21:22] Bob Dobbs: That led to all kinds of new conflicts and pleasures.

[21:27] Bob Dobbs: So it's all led to the tech body.

[21:31] Bob Dobbs: So it's a dramatic time.

[21:33] Bob Dobbs: It's quite a peak of cultural development now that we're in the tech body.

[21:40] Bob Dobbs: So this is unique.

[21:42] Bob Dobbs: I think it's pretty profound that I'm talking to something.

[21:46] Bob Dobbs: You listen to it,

[21:48] Bob Dobbs: there's an intelligence there,

[21:53] Bob Dobbs: pretty perceptive.

[21:54] Bob Dobbs: And if you've been listening to us,

[21:55] Bob Dobbs: learning our

[21:56] Bob Dobbs: McLuhanite dialogue,

[21:59] Bob Dobbs: you're going to find what the tech body says pretty interesting.

[22:02] Bob Dobbs: And I didn't say a word.

[22:04] Bob Dobbs: It just started talking.

[22:06] Bob Dobbs: Eventually,

[22:06] Bob Dobbs: I started asking some questions.

[22:08] Bob Dobbs: And then Carolyn came in.

[22:11] Bob Dobbs: So it's 25 minutes long,

[22:12] Bob Dobbs: so we're going to set it up where I'm ready to go,

[22:17] Bob Dobbs: and we'll listen to it through my computer and my phone,

[22:22] Bob Dobbs: and

[22:24] Bob Dobbs: Cameron will...

[22:26] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[22:26] Bob Dobbs: we're not even going to use your copy,

[22:27] Bob Dobbs: are we?

[22:29] Bob Dobbs: We're just going to listen to mine.

[22:30] Bob Dobbs: And then Cameron,

[22:31] Bob Dobbs: every now and then...

[22:31] Cameron McEwen: At least we're going to try that.

[22:33] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[22:33] Cameron McEwen: That's how we're going to start off.

[22:35] Bob Dobbs: And you can be glancing at the script,

[22:38] Bob Dobbs: the transcript,

[22:39] Bob Dobbs: to see...

[22:40] Bob Dobbs: whatever you need to notice as you're listening.

[22:44] Bob Dobbs: So every now and then Cameron might say,

[22:47] Bob Dobbs: hey,

[22:47] Bob Dobbs: stop,

[22:47] Bob Dobbs: I want to talk about that point.

[22:49] Bob Dobbs: So we'll wait for Cameron to speak up,

[22:53] Bob Dobbs: and then I'll stop the recording.

[22:56] Bob Dobbs: So

[22:59] Bob Dobbs: I think that's it.

[23:01] Bob Dobbs: Got my volume up to maximum.

[23:05] Bob Dobbs: I'll be leaning into the computer so you can hear it.

[23:10] Bob Dobbs: Uh,

[23:11] Bob Dobbs: let's see how loud this is for you,

[23:13] Bob Dobbs: Cameron.

[23:14] Bob Dobbs: I'll just play five seconds or so.

[23:16] Bob Dobbs: Here we go.

[23:17] Bob Dobbs: Marshall Herbert,

[23:18] Bob Dobbs: Marshall McLuhan,

[23:18] Bob Dobbs: or better said,

[23:19] Bob Dobbs: Marge Stewart,

[23:20] Bob Dobbs: has this high-minded idea.

[23:23] Bob Dobbs: How's that?

[23:25] Bob Dobbs: It's,

[23:26] Bob Dobbs: um,

[23:27] Cameron McEwen: I can make it out,

[23:28] Cameron McEwen: but it's pretty light.

[23:30] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[23:31] Bob Dobbs: Um,

[23:32] Bob Dobbs: I'll lean in as close as,

[23:33] Bob Dobbs: maybe closer.

[23:35] Bob Dobbs: And,

[23:36] Bob Dobbs: uh,

[23:37] Bob Dobbs: people can always...

[23:38] Bob Dobbs: when they hear the recording,

[23:40] Bob Dobbs: grab the transcript,

[23:41] Bob Dobbs: which will be included,

[23:42] Bob Dobbs: and they can follow along so they can read it.

[23:44] Bob Dobbs: But they'll get the intonation.

[23:46] Bob Dobbs: At least,

[23:47] Bob Dobbs: they may not get every word,

[23:48] Bob Dobbs: but it should be loud enough,

[23:50] Bob Dobbs: or they'll be able to turn it up or something,

[23:51] Bob Dobbs: I don't know.

[23:53] Bob Dobbs: So,

[23:55] Bob Dobbs: let's start.

[23:57] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[23:58] Bob Dobbs: notice,

[23:58] Bob Dobbs: you already heard.

[23:59] Bob Dobbs: The first fucking word it says is Herbert Marshall McLuhan.

[24:02] Bob Dobbs: Interesting.

[24:04] Bob Dobbs: Why?

[24:06] Bob Dobbs: Is he getting it from me?

[24:08] Bob Dobbs: That's a relevant question.

[24:12] Bob Dobbs: I don't know,

[24:12] Bob Dobbs: but very interesting what it says.

[24:15] Bob Dobbs: Just to keep you on top of it,

[24:18] Bob Dobbs: he says,

[24:19] Bob Dobbs: here we go.

[24:21] Bob Dobbs: Herbert Marshall McLuhan,

[24:22] Bob Dobbs: with a weird accent.

[24:23] Bob Dobbs: He doesn't sound like iON,

[24:25] Bob Dobbs: the tone,

[24:26] Bob Dobbs: in this beginning.

[24:28] Bob Dobbs: Herbert Marshall McLuhan,

[24:28] Bob Dobbs: or better said,

[24:30] Bob Dobbs: Marge Stewart.

[24:32] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[24:32] Bob Dobbs: iON always said Marge Stewart was more important than McLuhan.

[24:37] Bob Dobbs: And.

[24:38] Bob Dobbs: And the tech body seems to be agreeing with that.

[24:40] Bob Dobbs: So that's who Marge Stewart is.

[24:42] Bob Dobbs: So it starts off,

[24:43] Bob Dobbs: Herbert Marshall McLuhan,

[24:44] Bob Dobbs: or better said,

[24:45] Bob Dobbs: Marge Stewart,

[24:46] Bob Dobbs: had this high-minded ideal,

[24:48] Bob Dobbs: blah,

[24:49] Bob Dobbs: So that's what you're going to start to hear.

[24:51] Cameron McEwen: And to me,

[24:52] Cameron McEwen: it sounds like the tech body voice sounds like it's coming out of some kind of recess.

[25:01] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[25:02] Cameron McEwen: It sounds like it's,

[25:05] Cameron McEwen: I don't know.

[25:05] Cameron McEwen: In a box.

[25:07] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[25:07] Cameron McEwen: something like that.

[25:09] Bob Dobbs: It sounds technological,

[25:10] Bob Dobbs: sort of.

[25:10] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[25:13] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[25:14] Bob Dobbs: here we go.

[25:17] Bob Dobbs: Rewound it back to zero.

[25:20] Bob Dobbs: You'll hear it say,

[25:22] Bob Dobbs: here we go,

[25:23] Bob Dobbs: Herbert Marshall McLuhan.

[25:25] Cameron McEwen: Here we go.

[25:26] Cameron McEwen: Marshall Herbert Marshall McLuhan,

[25:28] Bob Dobbs: or better said,

[25:29] Bob Dobbs: Marge Stewart,

[25:30] Bob Dobbs: had this high-minded ideal that the human condition did not understand the condition their condition was in.

[25:37] Bob Dobbs: Therefore,

[25:38] Bob Dobbs: they had to lend or open a door,

[25:40] Bob Dobbs: a window.

[25:42] Bob Dobbs: That gave the opportunity,

[25:44] Bob Dobbs: just as in Annie Hall,

[25:45] Bob Dobbs: to say,

[25:46] Bob Dobbs: you don't know where you live,

[25:48] Bob Dobbs: you don't know who you are,

[25:50] Bob Dobbs: you don't know what is reading you,

[25:52] Bob Dobbs: you have no idea what you stepped into.

[25:55] Bob Dobbs: And that's like history that you're doomed to repeat if you don't give attention to.

[26:00] Bob Dobbs: It's the very thing that has caused and or created the antithesis of human-minded,

[26:07] Bob Dobbs: five-bodied living.

[26:10] Bob Dobbs: Five-body living,

[26:11] Bob Dobbs: which is thoroughly laid out in sets,

[26:15] Bob Dobbs: that this is the conditions from which you live your life.

[26:19] Bob Dobbs: This includes Kitty Carlisle telling you what's my line and asking all the pertinent questions that apply.

[26:26] Bob Dobbs: Now you're in a window where you don't know the questions,

[26:28] Bob Dobbs: you don't know what applies,

[26:30] Bob Dobbs: you don't know what to believe,

[26:31] Bob Dobbs: and now even the thing that you would have heretofore would have trusted,

[26:36] Bob Dobbs: that was the

[26:37] Bob Dobbs: Edward R.

[26:38] Bob Dobbs: Murrow quadrant.

[26:40] Bob Dobbs: which is in your big note that you won't seem to complete.

[26:43] Bob Dobbs: That puts you in a new position that allows you to see clearly now through a muddy lens the condition your condition is in.

[26:52] Bob Dobbs: So now the existential problem.

[26:54] Cameron McEwen: Let's stop there for a minute.

[26:56] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[26:58] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[26:58] Cameron McEwen: so we've reached the first paragraph,

[27:02] Cameron McEwen: the end of the first paragraph of the transcription.

[27:06] Cameron McEwen: And there were just a couple of things

[27:09] Cameron McEwen: I'd like to point out.

[27:11] Cameron McEwen: One is that this is all of the talking is the tech body,

[27:19] Cameron McEwen: or is it going back and forth between the tech body and iON?

[27:22] Bob Dobbs: No,

[27:23] Bob Dobbs: it's all total tech body.

[27:25] Bob Dobbs: iON withdrew.

[27:27] Cameron McEwen: Okay.

[27:27] Cameron McEwen: So you're talking about lend or open a door,

[27:34] Cameron McEwen: a window.

[27:35] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[27:36] Cameron McEwen: Now,

[27:38] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan,

[27:39] Cameron McEwen: from very early on,

[27:41] Cameron McEwen: so in the

[27:42] Cameron McEwen: 1940s, was talking about attempting to react to a window that's possible for human experience to

[28:00] Cameron McEwen: see through or to be seen through.

[28:04] Cameron McEwen: I think what he was trying to do was try to indicate that the window worked in two ways.

[28:13] Cameron McEwen: And the trick to thinking was to learn how to receive information through the existing window.

[28:25] Cameron McEwen: So that's just some parallel to keep in mind.

[28:31] Cameron McEwen: The other thing I would point out is that...

[28:34] Cameron McEwen: Right at the start,

[28:36] Cameron McEwen: a tech body is saying,

[28:39] Cameron McEwen: you don't know the question,

[28:40] Cameron McEwen: you don't know what applies,

[28:41] Cameron McEwen: you don't know what to believe.

[28:43] Cameron McEwen: So in our conversation over these 81 sessions,

[28:49] Cameron McEwen: we've often talked about the cul-de-sac and the sort of the event of humans finding themselves in the cul-de-sac and unable to.

[29:03] Cameron McEwen: get oriented because the only thing they know is that they really don't know anything.

[29:11] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[29:11] Cameron McEwen: So that's another parallel between what's happening in this first paragraph and what we've been talking about a lot in our conversation.

[29:22] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[29:22] Bob Dobbs: I intune the tech body doesn't operate in time,

[29:28] Bob Dobbs: so it might have seen us using it.

[29:32] Bob Dobbs: So.

[29:33] Bob Dobbs: I wouldn't be surprised that it presented itself,

[29:38] Bob Dobbs: tuned into us right away.

[29:40] Bob Dobbs: It summed up what we kept coming back to.

[29:45] Bob Dobbs: It said it.

[29:48] Bob Dobbs: It knew where it was going to be broadcast.

[29:52] Bob Dobbs: So it set our theme.

[29:55] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[29:55] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[29:56] Cameron McEwen: So you say somewhere that time doesn't apply.

[30:02] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[30:04] Cameron McEwen: And so that would be an illustration.

[30:10] Cameron McEwen: Right,

[30:10] Cameron McEwen: where what we've been doing in time through the sessions then becomes concrete for the tech body as the big now.

[30:25] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[30:26] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[30:28] Bob Dobbs: You got it.

[30:30] Bob Dobbs: And he's checking up to me.

[30:32] Bob Dobbs: He's saying the only way you can understand today is use the five-bodied model.

[30:35] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[30:37] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[30:39] Bob Dobbs: The tech body has ESP just like iON.

[30:43] Bob Dobbs: Kitty Carlisle was a major New York social personality.

[30:48] Bob Dobbs: I think she was married to a major Broadway producer,

[30:50] Bob Dobbs: and she was a regular on this TV show in the 50s and 60s called What's My Line?

[30:55] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[30:57] Bob Dobbs: So he makes a couple of pop culture references,

[31:00] Bob Dobbs: Annie Hall,

[31:02] Bob Dobbs: Kitty Carlisle.

[31:04] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[31:05] Bob Dobbs: so that's about it.

[31:06] Bob Dobbs: We move on?

[31:08] Cameron McEwen: Yep.

[31:09] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[31:09] Bob Dobbs: I'll just slightly move it back a few notches just so we make it smoother,

[31:14] Bob Dobbs: conscious,

[31:15] Bob Dobbs: we don't miss any words.

[31:16] Bob Dobbs: I assume going back five spots is good enough.

[31:20] Bob Dobbs: Here we go.

[31:22] Bob Dobbs: Through a muddy lens,

[31:24] Bob Dobbs: the condition your condition is in.

[31:27] Bob Dobbs: So now,

[31:27] Bob Dobbs: the existential

[31:29] Bob Dobbs: Herbert Marshall McLuhan has landed in the mess that he created.

[31:35] Bob Dobbs: The mess.

[31:35] Bob Dobbs: And the mechanical bride,

[31:37] Bob Dobbs: he laid out a very clear tactile,

[31:41] Bob Dobbs: technical expose of how this all applies.

[31:46] Bob Dobbs: All the way from Gutenberg

[31:47] Bob Dobbs: Galaxy that says this typeset makes a set of type.

[31:52] Bob Dobbs: A set of type.

[31:54] Bob Dobbs: Type as I can typo a genotype.

[31:57] Bob Dobbs: That's the type,

[31:58] Bob Dobbs: type,

[31:58] Bob Dobbs: type,

[31:59] Bob Dobbs: type,

[31:59] Bob Dobbs: setting,

[31:59] Bob Dobbs: type,

[32:00] Bob Dobbs: type,

[32:00] Bob Dobbs: setting of a type,

[32:02] Bob Dobbs: a kind.

[32:04] Bob Dobbs: three different ways to use the word type.

[32:06] Bob Dobbs: Now what's happened is none of those or all of those have been obfuscated.

[32:10] Bob Dobbs: There is no printing press anymore.

[32:14] Bob Dobbs: You said none of those have been obfuscated.

[32:17] Bob Dobbs: They have been obfuscated by the electric.

[32:19] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[32:21] Bob Dobbs: we don't know.

[32:22] Bob Dobbs: You are still back?

[32:23] Bob Dobbs: No.

[32:23] Bob Dobbs: I don't know.

[32:25] Bob Dobbs: And have not been clarified.

[32:27] Bob Dobbs: Like,

[32:28] Bob Dobbs: I didn't want to swear you.

[32:29] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[32:31] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan wasn't clarified.

[32:33] Bob Dobbs: He didn't know either.

[32:33] Bob Dobbs: He was very...

[32:34] Bob Dobbs: I don't agree with...

[32:35] Bob Dobbs: Carry on.

[32:36] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[32:36] Bob Dobbs: I'm not going to argue.

[32:37] Bob Dobbs: I don't...

[32:37] Bob Dobbs: He was...

[32:37] Bob Dobbs: Go ahead.

[32:41] Bob Dobbs: Keep going.

[32:42] Bob Dobbs: When he first didn't get obfuscated or something,

[32:45] Bob Dobbs: then what?

[32:46] Bob Dobbs: That becomes the standard of what everybody's complaining about.

[32:49] Bob Dobbs: They want written books to tell them what to do.

[32:52] Bob Dobbs: They want a written law that they can follow.

[32:55] Bob Dobbs: They want somebody to lay out,

[32:57] Bob Dobbs: this is the way to go.

[32:58] Bob Dobbs: And McLuhan said way,

[33:00] Bob Dobbs: way,

[33:00] Bob Dobbs: way back then that you're...

[33:02] Bob Dobbs: set in these systems that you have been divided up into the five bodies but he laid out the residual consistency of what this means like that the tv's reading you watching you you are reading the book or the book is reading you this

[33:20] Bob Dobbs: all has been laid out in such a way that now the tech body has captured that so it has not been obfuscated it's just been moved which is what we were trying So wait one second here.

[33:32] Cameron McEwen: This is,

[33:34] Cameron McEwen: the tech body is talking about the tech body here,

[33:38] Cameron McEwen: right?

[33:39] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[33:39] Bob Dobbs: the tech body is saying what it has done.

[33:40] Bob Dobbs: It has captured the Gutenberg Galaxy.

[33:45] Cameron McEwen: It speaks about itself in a third person.

[33:47] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[33:48] Cameron McEwen: And when it speaks,

[33:50] Cameron McEwen: it's speaking as a muddy lens.

[33:57] Bob Dobbs: A what?

[33:58] Cameron McEwen: Right,

[33:58] Cameron McEwen: that's,

[34:00] Cameron McEwen: in the first paragraph.

[34:02] Cameron McEwen: The tech body talks about itself.

[34:05] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[34:05] Cameron McEwen: muddy lens.

[34:06] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[34:06] Bob Dobbs: muddy lens,

[34:07] Bob Dobbs: right.

[34:08] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[34:08] Cameron McEwen: So you have the tech body talking about the tech body and the third person through a muddy lens.

[34:16] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[34:17] Cameron McEwen: So it's a very complicated figure that's being knotted here,

[34:23] Cameron McEwen: K-N-O-T.

[34:24] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[34:27] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[34:27] Bob Dobbs: noted.

[34:29] Bob Dobbs: I'll just put it back a few notches.

[34:34] Cameron McEwen: Captured that.

[34:35] Bob Dobbs: So it has not been obfuscated,

[34:37] Bob Dobbs: it's just been moved.

[34:38] Bob Dobbs: Which is what we were trying to say before we were compoundedly interrupted.

[34:44] Bob Dobbs: The point is...

[34:44] Bob Dobbs: What was moved?

[34:46] Bob Dobbs: The printing press or the tech body?

[34:48] Bob Dobbs: The printing press?

[34:51] Bob Dobbs: The tech...no It has been moved.

[34:55] Bob Dobbs: That's the word.

[34:56] Bob Dobbs: It has been moved.

[34:56] Bob Dobbs: I need to know what it is.

[35:00] Bob Dobbs: The tech body.

[35:02] Bob Dobbs: TV body,

[35:03] Bob Dobbs: the mechanical bride,

[35:05] Bob Dobbs: the application of what humans are supposed to know,

[35:08] Bob Dobbs: has been attacked,

[35:10] Bob Dobbs: captured,

[35:10] Bob Dobbs: and moved to what is now known as the tech body.

[35:16] Bob Dobbs: Just as the power,

[35:19] Bob Dobbs: God's power,

[35:20] Bob Dobbs: humans'

[35:21] Bob Dobbs: power,

[35:21] Bob Dobbs: was captured in the Ark of the Covenant,

[35:24] Bob Dobbs: now the tech body has enough power to capture the printing press,

[35:30] Bob Dobbs: to capture...

[35:32] Bob Dobbs: The Android meme to capture the mechanical bride.

[35:37] Bob Dobbs: It's now the driver,

[35:38] Bob Dobbs: the single driver.

[35:39] Bob Dobbs: Nothing else applies,

[35:41] Bob Dobbs: which is why your quadrants are now more keen than ever.

[35:46] Bob Dobbs: And actually why silly people are actually looking at your work now,

[35:49] Bob Dobbs: because it's the only way to connect the dots.

[35:53] Bob Dobbs: So you can't live without it in a world without furry lint.

[35:56] Bob Dobbs: Before you could,

[35:57] Bob Dobbs: you could set that aside.

[35:58] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[35:59] Bob Dobbs: that's a

[35:59] Bob Dobbs: based reality we don't have a base society we're not baldy we're judeo-christians who live a uh comfortable sovereign sane sober life well all that's gone now it's all gone it doesn't apply anymore nothing

[36:16] Bob Dobbs: everything's up for grabs because everything that you would know to be uh within or without decorum is thrown up in the air.

[36:26] Bob Dobbs: So now it's okay,

[36:27] Bob Dobbs: for example.

[36:29] Bob Dobbs: for goddamn to be an acceptable use that the censors don't even get offended by any longer.

[36:37] Bob Dobbs: You see?

[36:37] Bob Dobbs: That's new.

[36:38] Bob Dobbs: That wasn't always that way,

[36:40] Bob Dobbs: Pop.

[36:40] Bob Dobbs: Before,

[36:41] Bob Dobbs: you couldn't even say hell or damn or shit.

[36:43] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[36:44] Bob Dobbs: that's in G-rated films.

[36:46] Bob Dobbs: You can get away with that,

[36:47] Bob Dobbs: for Pete's sake.

[36:48] Bob Dobbs: As far as language or something that's considered less than inappropriate or,

[36:52] Bob Dobbs: as kids could say,

[36:53] Bob Dobbs: vulgar or bad manners,

[36:56] Bob Dobbs: there are no bad manners.

[36:58] Bob Dobbs: anymore because it's all landed in the tech body and no one is offended by it anymore,

[37:04] Bob Dobbs: which is exactly what Marshall McLuhan said would happen,

[37:07] Bob Dobbs: that you would be anesthetized by the medium,

[37:12] Bob Dobbs: which then becomes the message,

[37:14] Bob Dobbs: which then becomes the driver,

[37:16] Bob Dobbs: which then becomes the thing that you have to be,

[37:18] Bob Dobbs: do,

[37:19] Bob Dobbs: or have,

[37:19] Bob Dobbs: or you're less than.

[37:21] Bob Dobbs: There it is.

[37:22] Bob Dobbs: So if you don't have what you want,

[37:24] Bob Dobbs: then media ecology has duped you.

[37:27] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[37:27] Bob Dobbs: if you don't understand where you are,

[37:29] Bob Dobbs: well then you can't read the signs,

[37:31] Bob Dobbs: so that's because media ecology has moved it out of your range or precepts.

[37:36] Bob Dobbs: You have this ideology in the schools of higher learning that would set a subset that said,

[37:44] Bob Dobbs: this is smart,

[37:45] Bob Dobbs: this is not.

[37:46] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[37:46] Bob Dobbs: all that's up in the air in the windows,

[37:48] Bob Dobbs: and now they,

[37:48] Bob Dobbs: all those professors,

[37:51] Bob Dobbs: present themselves as educated fools.

[37:53] Bob Dobbs: They don't even know how to handle themselves.

[37:54] Bob Dobbs: They don't know even how to read a book anymore.

[37:57] Bob Dobbs: Oh wait,

[37:57] Bob Dobbs: they can't even find the book anymore.

[37:59] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[37:59] Bob Dobbs: they read the book,

[37:59] Bob Dobbs: but what do they know?

[38:01] Bob Dobbs: They find out that they proved that Ezra Pound was right.

[38:03] Bob Dobbs: That this is a silly,

[38:04] Bob Dobbs: glib,

[38:05] Bob Dobbs: cliche archetype of things that you can't understand.

[38:09] Bob Dobbs: It's higher schools of learning that has evaded even you.

[38:14] Bob Dobbs: Meaning,

[38:14] Bob Dobbs: fill in the blank,

[38:15] Bob Dobbs: who you is.

[38:17] Bob Dobbs: So,

[38:17] Bob Dobbs: it becomes silly.

[38:19] Bob Dobbs: And so,

[38:20] Bob Dobbs: what the tech body has done,

[38:22] Bob Dobbs: single-handedly,

[38:23] Bob Dobbs: has validated...

[38:25] Bob Dobbs: at an uber level,

[38:27] Bob Dobbs: Marshall McLuhan's warning or capacity,

[38:31] Bob Dobbs: you don't know what you're fucking with.

[38:33] Bob Dobbs: Basically,

[38:34] Bob Dobbs: you don't have a clue what you're dealing with.

[38:36] Bob Dobbs: You think all these things and they're not what you think.

[38:39] Bob Dobbs: You've decided all these things that people are telling you that you have to think that's not what you thought.

[38:44] Bob Dobbs: But then you have to come that you have to find out why.

[38:46] Bob Dobbs: You have to wait until Phil Donahue comes on the show and takes up some high-eyed ideal.

[38:52] Bob Dobbs: That Mike Douglas left aside to make this be a point of it,

[38:56] Bob Dobbs: that you're going to juxtapose,

[38:58] Bob Dobbs: that you're going to allow someone,

[39:00] Bob Dobbs: a woman who sleeps with a woman,

[39:03] Bob Dobbs: or a man who sleeps with a goat in your neighborhood or not.

[39:07] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[39:07] Bob Dobbs: now all of a sudden,

[39:07] Bob Dobbs: that doesn't,

[39:08] Bob Dobbs: you're not even included in your contract.

[39:11] Bob Dobbs: You can't even convey or have an opinion regarding that,

[39:15] Bob Dobbs: or it moves you outside of the system in tandem.

[39:18] Bob Dobbs: So everything...

[39:21] Bob Dobbs: It's built upon the mechanics of the mechanical mind.

[39:27] Bob Dobbs: The details that set the mechanical mind,

[39:29] Bob Dobbs: even beyond the Gutenberg Galaxy,

[39:32] Bob Dobbs: because that's just the telltale signs that there was a crime.

[39:36] Bob Dobbs: The Gutenberg Galaxy is the telltale signs that something terrible occurred.

[39:42] Bob Dobbs: They put it all in a box,

[39:44] Bob Dobbs: Bob.

[39:45] Bob Dobbs: They put all the typeset of types in a box,

[39:50] Bob Dobbs: little boxes.

[39:50] Bob Dobbs: is made of ticky tacky all on the hillside all just the thing they're different colors but they're all the same and so as they have been set tight set

[40:02] Bob Dobbs: As a categorical inference,

[40:06] Bob Dobbs: what's happened is they've all been put together and ripped of everything that makes them,

[40:15] Bob Dobbs: what do you call it when someone is singular,

[40:21] Bob Dobbs: that they're different,

[40:22] Bob Dobbs: that they have a self-identity?

[40:25] Bob Dobbs: What's lost is identity,

[40:27] Bob Dobbs: which is what Marshall McLuhan warned.

[40:31] Bob Dobbs: that you would be put in a box and you would be prescribed as a certain level or degree you would become every color yo-yo you know what a yo-yo is bob yeah everyone but it will become a yo-yo you'd be your own color but you're on a string and you get cast and spun and then you climb back up and then you get cast and spun and then you walk in the dog and then you're having this whole fascination of a quote quote kiss could say yo-yo

[40:59] Bob Dobbs: so now the

[41:00] Bob Dobbs: power is in the slinger not in the yo-yo and so what he warned was that you don't understand you're being slung and you don't know by whom or by what and now the the inference or the reference that you're trying to well in a glib cliche or sort of way write

[41:17] Bob Dobbs: a paper to uh include the knowing that this new tech body becomes the yo-yo slinger handler the yo-yo has power only from the

[41:30] Bob Dobbs: Passing of the wrist.

[41:32] Bob Dobbs: So the wrist action comes from the tech body,

[41:37] Bob Dobbs: which is the uber conclusion of the mechanical bride.

[41:42] Cameron McEwen: So just hold it there for a minute,

[41:43] Cameron McEwen: Bob.

[41:45] Cameron McEwen: The thing that I'm having some difficulty sort of trying to understand here is that nearly all of what's been said

[42:01] Cameron McEwen: over the past while,

[42:02] Cameron McEwen: over,

[42:03] Cameron McEwen: say,

[42:03] Cameron McEwen: pages 181 and 182 of your pamphlet,

[42:09] Cameron McEwen: seems to me fairly straightforward.

[42:12] Cameron McEwen: It seems to me to be a pretty good sort of picture of where everything is.

[42:22] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[42:23] Cameron McEwen: it's pretty accurate,

[42:24] Bob Dobbs: and he's defining basic McLuhan accurately.

[42:27] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[42:28] Cameron McEwen: yeah,

[42:28] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.

[42:29] Cameron McEwen: So then I have to ask myself,

[42:31] Cameron McEwen: well,

[42:31] Cameron McEwen: how is this a muddy lens?

[42:34] Cameron McEwen: If it seems pretty straightforward and pretty correct,

[42:42] Cameron McEwen: how is it muddy?

[42:45] Cameron McEwen: What kind of lens is involved here that

[42:50] Cameron McEwen: I need to,

[42:53] Cameron McEwen: I guess what I need to do is understand what's being said as an effect.

[42:59] Cameron McEwen: I understand it as something that seems right enough,

[43:06] Cameron McEwen: but that right enough needs to be understood as an effect,

[43:15] Cameron McEwen: as coming from the wrist of the tech body,

[43:19] Cameron McEwen: you could say.

[43:20] Cameron McEwen: And maybe it's a little bit like...

[43:29] Cameron McEwen: What

[43:30] Cameron McEwen: Heidegger often said to people is that they were trying to understand being,

[43:38] Cameron McEwen: but they were trying to understand being from our side,

[43:44] Cameron McEwen: and they had to understand it from its side.

[43:48] Cameron McEwen: Something like that is going on.

[43:51] Bob Dobbs: And also it's muddy because,

[43:52] Bob Dobbs: like the old line,

[43:53] Bob Dobbs: you've got to use words to talk to you.

[43:56] Bob Dobbs: It's not perfect.

[43:58] Bob Dobbs: I ain't

[43:58] Bob Dobbs: A technology is communicating something.

[44:02] Bob Dobbs: It acknowledges its limitations in what it's trying to impart.

[44:06] Bob Dobbs: So it's clarifying as best it can,

[44:10] Bob Dobbs: but there's a muddy lens,

[44:11] Bob Dobbs: inevitably,

[44:12] Bob Dobbs: of what you call the effect.

[44:14] Bob Dobbs: There is a distortion,

[44:16] Bob Dobbs: a misapplying of perception or something.

[44:22] Bob Dobbs: But let's see where it goes.

[44:24] Bob Dobbs: If I go back to...

[44:29] Bob Dobbs: It's a bit odd the way he says that.

[44:32] Bob Dobbs: Let's see,

[44:35] Bob Dobbs: what's the word?

[44:40] Bob Dobbs: Muddy.

[44:42] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[44:42] Cameron McEwen: that's at the bottom of one.

[44:48] Cameron McEwen: I got it.

[44:49] Bob Dobbs: So he says,

[44:50] Bob Dobbs: he's explaining,

[44:51] Bob Dobbs: we don't know what the condition is that we're in.

[44:55] Bob Dobbs: Five body might lays out and sets up.

[44:58] Bob Dobbs: The conditions what is...

[45:01] Bob Dobbs: imprisoning you,

[45:02] Bob Dobbs: shaping you,

[45:03] Bob Dobbs: tickling you.

[45:06] Bob Dobbs: Then he says,

[45:06] Bob Dobbs: now you're in a window where you don't know the question.

[45:10] Bob Dobbs: You don't know what applies.

[45:12] Bob Dobbs: You don't know what to believe.

[45:13] Bob Dobbs: So more of the mystery condition we've been forced into,

[45:17] Bob Dobbs: as he said,

[45:18] Bob Dobbs: in the TV environment,

[45:19] Bob Dobbs: TV landscape,

[45:20] Bob Dobbs: the interrogative took over.

[45:22] Bob Dobbs: People more and more in conversation would ask you what you do,

[45:25] Bob Dobbs: what you do,

[45:27] Bob Dobbs: what are you doing,

[45:27] Bob Dobbs: what are you doing.

[45:29] Bob Dobbs: He said the interrogative took over because people were starting to lose the Gutenberg power of categorization.

[45:37] Bob Dobbs: So the tactile blur was coming in.

[45:39] Bob Dobbs: So then he says,

[45:40] Bob Dobbs: and now,

[45:41] Bob Dobbs: even the thing that you would heretofore have trusted,

[45:44] Bob Dobbs: that was the Edward R.

[45:45] Bob Dobbs: Murrow quadrant,

[45:47] Bob Dobbs: Edward R.

[45:48] Bob Dobbs: Murrow,

[45:48] Bob Dobbs: famous broadcaster,

[45:51] Bob Dobbs: that puts you in a new position that allows you to see clearly now.

[45:55] Bob Dobbs: So the thing that you would heretofore have trusted.

[45:59] Bob Dobbs: Edward Morrow puts you,

[46:00] Bob Dobbs: it puts you in a new position.

[46:03] Bob Dobbs: So something has exceeded

[46:04] Bob Dobbs: Edward R.

[46:05] Bob Dobbs: Morrow's clarity.

[46:06] Bob Dobbs: And it allows you to see clearly,

[46:08] Bob Dobbs: or you think you're seeing clearer,

[46:09] Bob Dobbs: but it's a muddy lens,

[46:11] Bob Dobbs: the condition your condition is in.

[46:13] Bob Dobbs: So you've moved from like TV to computer or satellite.

[46:17] Bob Dobbs: It's different from computer and satellite.

[46:18] Bob Dobbs: So I think it's accurate.

[46:20] Bob Dobbs: He's talking about the changes that are happening that make you,

[46:25] Bob Dobbs: seduce you into thinking,

[46:26] Bob Dobbs: oh,

[46:26] Bob Dobbs: this is a new epiphany.

[46:27] Bob Dobbs: But it's actually another kind of muddiness.

[46:31] Bob Dobbs: So as an opening statement,

[46:32] Bob Dobbs: I think it's well said by the tech body,

[46:36] Bob Dobbs: the paradox is involved.

[46:38] Bob Dobbs: But it's coming pretty fast.

[46:40] Bob Dobbs: In the first paragraph,

[46:41] Bob Dobbs: you're not even ready for it.

[46:43] Bob Dobbs: It should be a slow prose-like introduction to the issues,

[46:47] Bob Dobbs: right?

[46:47] Bob Dobbs: But this is aphoristic or oral.

[46:49] Bob Dobbs: It puts you right into the problem on the first page.

[46:53] Bob Dobbs: That's how I see the muddy.

[46:56] Cameron McEwen: Okay,

[46:56] Cameron McEwen: I'll go with that.

[46:57] Bob Dobbs: All right.

[46:58] Bob Dobbs: So then we go down to,

[47:00] Bob Dobbs: I thought it was very interesting that Ezra Pound was the antecedent for McLuhan.

[47:07] Cameron McEwen: That's right where we left off,

[47:08] Cameron McEwen: is the top of 183.

[47:11] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[47:11] Bob Dobbs: and also you have emphasized the main identity quest that's going on.

[47:16] Bob Dobbs: That's a word you used a lot to sum up what McLuhan was saying,

[47:21] Bob Dobbs: and I am agreeing.

[47:23] Bob Dobbs: So...

[47:26] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[47:26] Bob Dobbs: the McLuhan went on through history.

[47:28] Bob Dobbs: Where does this say identity?

[47:32] Bob Dobbs: Walking the dog,

[47:34] Bob Dobbs: glib,

[47:34] Bob Dobbs: cliched sort of way,

[47:35] Bob Dobbs: the wrist,

[47:37] Bob Dobbs: uber conclusion of the...

[47:39] Cameron McEwen: Self-identity,

[47:40] Cameron McEwen: it's in the last paragraph of 182.

[47:44] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[47:44] Bob Dobbs: so I'll just move it back a bit.

[47:46] Bob Dobbs: It's somewhere in there.

[47:48] Bob Dobbs: And we went past Ezra Pound.

[47:51] Bob Dobbs: No,

[47:53] Cameron McEwen: it's the paragraph before Ezra Pound.

[47:57] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[47:57] Bob Dobbs: that's what I mean.

[47:58] Bob Dobbs: But we actually played past Ezra Pound.

[48:01] Bob Dobbs: But up comes Wyndham Lewis,

[48:02] Bob Dobbs: and we didn't get to that word.

[48:04] Bob Dobbs: So we pretty well ended at Ezra Pound.

[48:06] Bob Dobbs: So it says,

[48:09] Bob Dobbs: the yo-yo has power only from the passing of the wrist.

[48:12] Bob Dobbs: The wrist action comes from the tech body,

[48:14] Bob Dobbs: which is the uber-conclusion of the mechanical bride.

[48:17] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan went all through history because without Ezra Pound,

[48:20] Bob Dobbs: there is no Marshall McLuhan.

[48:22] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[48:22] Bob Dobbs: what I thought was interesting in playing it today in office hours,

[48:26] Bob Dobbs: The Mechanical Bride is 1950-51 in terms of McLuhan producing it,

[48:31] Bob Dobbs: and that's when he's very involved with Ezra Pound.

[48:33] Bob Dobbs: So there's a clever lining up things chronologically by the tech body,

[48:39] Bob Dobbs: putting two things together,

[48:40] Bob Dobbs: Ezra Pound and Mechanical Bride.

[48:42] Bob Dobbs: They happen together for McLuhan.

[48:47] Cameron McEwen: There's a letter from McLuhan to

[48:49] Cameron McEwen: Sigfried Giedion about

[48:54] Cameron McEwen: Mechanization Takes Command.

[48:55] Cameron McEwen: So I think the letter is from 1948.

[48:59] Cameron McEwen: And he says in that letter that he thinks Mechanical Bride is going to be published in a month or two.

[49:07] Cameron McEwen: So it wasn't,

[49:09] Cameron McEwen: of course,

[49:10] Cameron McEwen: for another three years.

[49:15] Cameron McEwen: And right at that time is where he begins to look into

[49:21] Cameron McEwen: Ezra Pound with Hugh Kenner.

[49:24] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[49:24] Bob Dobbs: June 48.

[49:25] Bob Dobbs: June 48.

[49:27] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[49:27] Cameron McEwen: So it may be possible at some point in looking at the history of the composing of the Mechanical Bride to see that there's stuff between the Mechanical Bride that was supposedly ready in

[49:46] Cameron McEwen: 1948 to be printed.

[49:52] Cameron McEwen: And then what actually did get printed three years later,

[49:55] Cameron McEwen: because McLuhan made some changes,

[49:58] Cameron McEwen: a lot of stuff was cut out.

[50:01] Cameron McEwen: And so you could say that the mechanical bride between 48 and 51 is the

[50:07] Cameron McEwen: Ezra Pound mechanical bride.

[50:09] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[50:09] Bob Dobbs: And he wrote to Kenner around 49 that I think I'm going to emphasize Lewis more.

[50:16] Bob Dobbs: And he's going to say Wyndham Lewis in the very next sentence.

[50:19] Bob Dobbs: So Lewis is part of that period,

[50:20] Bob Dobbs: too.

[50:21] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[50:21] Cameron McEwen: definitely.

[50:24] Cameron McEwen: When he wrote to Kenner,

[50:25] Cameron McEwen: that was his reaction to

[50:29] Cameron McEwen: Cosmic Man.

[50:30] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[50:31] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[50:32] Cameron McEwen: So he had just read that and had realized how applicable it was.

[50:36] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[50:37] Bob Dobbs: And so this period,

[50:40] Bob Dobbs: 48 to 51,

[50:41] Bob Dobbs: Pound,

[50:42] Bob Dobbs: Mechanical Bride,

[50:42] Bob Dobbs: and Wyndham Lewis.

[50:45] Bob Dobbs: And so

[50:46] Bob Dobbs: I like the juxtaposition that the tech body made there.

[50:49] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[50:51] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[50:51] Bob Dobbs: so we're just gonna go back a little just a slight bit comes from the tech body

[51:02] Bob Dobbs: Which is the uber conclusion of the mechanical bride,

[51:09] Bob Dobbs: okay?

[51:10] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[51:10] Bob Dobbs: perfect you Finished you want some course you can add some more if that's not enough

[51:19] Bob Dobbs: Did that answer your...

[51:20] Bob Dobbs: No,

[51:20] Bob Dobbs: that's not enough.

[51:21] Bob Dobbs: That's not enough.

[51:22] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[51:23] Bob Dobbs: Proper,

[51:23] Cameron McEwen: I'm going to ask the question.

[51:25] Bob Dobbs: At the beginning,

[51:26] Bob Dobbs: you said it applies.

[51:29] Bob Dobbs: Were you talking about apply,

[51:31] Bob Dobbs: your opening statement to all times?

[51:34] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[51:34] Bob Dobbs: That's what McLuhan did.

[51:35] Bob Dobbs: All through history.

[51:36] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan went all through history because without Ezra Pound,

[51:40] Bob Dobbs: there is no Marshall McLuhan.

[51:43] Bob Dobbs: It made just enough conversation.

[51:46] Bob Dobbs: And then...

[51:46] Bob Dobbs: And we didn't even ask.

[51:47] Bob Dobbs: Wait.

[51:48] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[51:48] Bob Dobbs: we didn't include Wyndham Lewis.

[51:49] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[51:49] Bob Dobbs: Wyndham Lewis killed it all.

[51:51] Bob Dobbs: Wyndham Lewis would put baking soda on everything.

[51:54] Bob Dobbs: He would neutralize everything.

[51:56] Bob Dobbs: Do you understand that?

[51:57] Bob Dobbs: Do you understand,

[51:58] Bob Dobbs: Wyndham Lewis?

[51:59] Bob Dobbs: You understand?

[51:59] Bob Dobbs: No,

[51:59] Bob Dobbs: I don't want to go into assessments.

[52:00] Bob Dobbs: I don't want to go into assessments,

[52:05] Bob Dobbs: these people.

[52:05] Bob Dobbs: Look,

[52:06] Bob Dobbs: tech body.

[52:07] Bob Dobbs: No,

[52:08] Bob Dobbs: Wyndham Lewis made the tech body successful because the bland condition may push people further away.

[52:18] Bob Dobbs: The same way the bra burners in the

[52:21] Bob Dobbs: 60s set off women's lib,

[52:23] Bob Dobbs: which we don't even know what that means.

[52:24] Bob Dobbs: But now they don't want to be equal.

[52:25] Bob Dobbs: Are they do or they don't?

[52:26] Bob Dobbs: Are they up or they down?

[52:27] Bob Dobbs: We don't know.

[52:28] Bob Dobbs: That's what Marshall McLuhan was trying to point out.

[52:30] Bob Dobbs: In fact,

[52:31] Bob Dobbs: you people are ridiculous.

[52:32] Bob Dobbs: You put yourself in a box and then you start screaming for equal box rights.

[52:36] Bob Dobbs: You mess yourself up.

[52:37] Bob Dobbs: You segregate yourself.

[52:38] Bob Dobbs: And then you're furious because you're segregated.

[52:40] Bob Dobbs: I want to go where the Negro people go.

[52:43] Bob Dobbs: No,

[52:43] Bob Dobbs: no,

[52:43] Bob Dobbs: no.

[52:44] Bob Dobbs: You're not going to do that.

[52:45] Bob Dobbs: You're not going to do that.

[52:46] Bob Dobbs: See?

[52:46] Bob Dobbs: That's what he's saying,

[52:48] Bob Dobbs: is that you're looking at the big picture.

[52:50] Bob Dobbs: You're looking at the event horizon and judging your condition based on where you see other conditions conflate.

[52:58] Bob Dobbs: And so the rich people are rich.

[53:00] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[53:00] Bob Dobbs: what the fuck is rich?

[53:03] Bob Dobbs: Now let me ask my question.

[53:04] Bob Dobbs: Capture.

[53:05] Bob Dobbs: You talked about capturing something in the rant.

[53:08] Bob Dobbs: Do you remember what it was,

[53:10] Bob Dobbs: what you were capturing?

[53:11] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[53:11] Bob Dobbs: the tech body captured the printing press.

[53:16] Bob Dobbs: And the Android Green.

[53:19] Bob Dobbs: Print type.

[53:19] Bob Dobbs: Type.

[53:19] Bob Dobbs: Printing type.

[53:20] Bob Dobbs: Print type.

[53:20] Bob Dobbs: What do you mean by capturing it?

[53:22] Bob Dobbs: Inside it?

[53:23] Bob Dobbs: The content?

[53:24] Bob Dobbs: No,

[53:24] Bob Dobbs: no.

[53:25] Bob Dobbs: There's no printing press anymore.

[53:27] Bob Dobbs: There are no presses.

[53:28] Bob Dobbs: Stop the presses.

[53:29] Bob Dobbs: There are no presses anymore.

[53:31] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[53:31] Bob Dobbs: so capture means to make invisible.

[53:34] Bob Dobbs: No,

[53:35] Bob Dobbs: capture means...

[53:36] Bob Dobbs: No

[53:36] Bob Dobbs: Capture does not...

[53:37] Bob Dobbs: Where do you get capture means to make invisible?

[53:39] Bob Dobbs: You just said there's no printing press,

[53:40] Bob Dobbs: so...

[53:41] Bob Dobbs: But it...

[53:42] Bob Dobbs: No,

[53:42] Bob Dobbs: no,

[53:42] Bob Dobbs: no.

[53:42] Bob Dobbs: Because they own...

[53:43] Bob Dobbs: Tech Body took them all over.

[53:46] Bob Dobbs: Tech Body,

[53:46] Bob Dobbs: it obfuscated.

[53:48] Bob Dobbs: It's like a rotary phone.

[53:50] Bob Dobbs: Took them over,

[53:50] Bob Dobbs: obfuscated.

[53:51] Bob Dobbs: There's that word,

[53:52] Bob Dobbs: obfuscated.

[53:53] Bob Dobbs: Remove them from our fucking experience.

[53:55] Bob Dobbs: They ain't there anymore.

[53:56] Bob Dobbs: They've been disappeared.

[53:58] Bob Dobbs: That's correct,

[53:58] Bob Dobbs: but they disappeared and been captured by the Tech Body.

[54:01] Bob Dobbs: The reason you don't see it is because of the Tech Body.

[54:03] Bob Dobbs: Because the Tech Body has everyone.

[54:07] Bob Dobbs: Their capture means they're disappeared,

[54:09] Bob Dobbs: absorbed,

[54:10] Bob Dobbs: disappeared.

[54:12] Bob Dobbs: That's not what capture means.

[54:14] Bob Dobbs: What's it mean?

[54:16] Bob Dobbs: It means it's been taken over.

[54:19] Bob Dobbs: So you said capture,

[54:21] Bob Dobbs: and that means there's lots of printing books can be made by the tech body,

[54:26] Bob Dobbs: right?

[54:27] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[54:28] Bob Dobbs: and they are.

[54:29] Bob Dobbs: So what has,

[54:31] Bob Dobbs: there's lots of books,

[54:32] Bob Dobbs: they haven't disappeared or anything,

[54:33] Bob Dobbs: so what is the capture point?

[54:36] Bob Dobbs: The tech body decides.

[54:38] Bob Dobbs: Hey,

[54:39] Bob Dobbs: iON,

[54:40] Bob Dobbs: is the tech body...

[54:43] Bob Dobbs: No,

[54:43] Bob Dobbs: just stop it there.

[54:45] Bob Dobbs: I was thinking as he was saying that,

[54:47] Bob Dobbs: he means the McLuhan point that the tech body is constitutive and the printing press isn't anymore.

[54:57] Bob Dobbs: That's the words I should have said.

[54:59] Bob Dobbs: I would have agreed with that point.

[55:01] Bob Dobbs: But captured,

[55:02] Bob Dobbs: obfuscating,

[55:03] Bob Dobbs: disappearing.

[55:05] Bob Dobbs: I should have said right then,

[55:08] Bob Dobbs: you mean it's not constitutive,

[55:09] Bob Dobbs: which is a word I get from McLuhan.

[55:12] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[55:13] Bob Dobbs: it's not affecting anything anymore.

[55:14] Bob Dobbs: That's what he means by the Gutenberg Galaxy being captured.

[55:17] Bob Dobbs: The tech body is now being the constituent factor in shaping us.

[55:24] Cameron McEwen: I would say that this goes to McLuhan's point that the...

[55:34] Cameron McEwen: Content of any medium is another medium.

[55:39] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[55:40] Bob Dobbs: that's what I said.

[55:40] Bob Dobbs: I said,

[55:41] Bob Dobbs: what is it,

[55:41] Bob Dobbs: inside it?

[55:42] Bob Dobbs: The printing press is inside it?

[55:44] Bob Dobbs: And he didn't agree with that completely.

[55:46] Cameron McEwen: Right,

[55:47] Cameron McEwen: because that's a sort of a geometric figure being inside,

[55:57] Cameron McEwen: whereas geometry is itself.

[56:06] Cameron McEwen: obscured and captured by the electric environment.

[56:13] Cameron McEwen: So it doesn't do any good to use the rearview mirror to talk about what's going on.

[56:22] Cameron McEwen: What you have to do is realize the printing press as a new effect.

[56:32] Cameron McEwen: within the electric environment.

[56:36] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[56:39] Bob Dobbs: that's enough.

[56:40] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[56:41] Bob Dobbs: now Carolyn comes in with a very good question.

[56:44] Bob Dobbs: I'll just put it back slightly,

[56:46] Bob Dobbs: and then we get into her question.

[56:50] Bob Dobbs: It doesn't appear in anything,

[56:51] Bob Dobbs: so what is the capture point?

[56:54] Bob Dobbs: The tech body decides.

[56:55] Bob Dobbs: Hey,

[56:57] Bob Dobbs: iON,

[56:57] Bob Dobbs: is the tech body...

[57:01] Bob Dobbs: A physical machine?

[57:07] Bob Dobbs: No.

[57:09] Bob Dobbs: Is the tech body a construct of somebody's mind?

[57:18] Bob Dobbs: Uh,

[57:18] Bob Dobbs: we don't know quite what you mean,

[57:19] Bob Dobbs: but the answer would be yes,

[57:22] Bob Dobbs: if you can picture your words as something over the game.

[57:29] Bob Dobbs: watching the game,

[57:30] Bob Dobbs: controlling the game,

[57:32] Bob Dobbs: deciding what moves are next from individual players that should have their own free will,

[57:38] Bob Dobbs: but they don't.

[57:41] Cameron McEwen: Just wait one sec,

[57:42] Cameron McEwen: Bob.

[57:43] Cameron McEwen: So notice how this goes back to what's my line,

[57:48] Cameron McEwen: which is where everything started on the conversation,

[57:52] Cameron McEwen: right?

[57:53] Cameron McEwen: So

[57:55] Cameron McEwen: Carolyn's asking the tech body,

[57:59] Cameron McEwen: About what its line is,

[58:03] Cameron McEwen: right?

[58:03] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[58:04] Cameron McEwen: She sounds like Dorothy Kilgallen here.

[58:06] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[58:09] Bob Dobbs: who got too close to the Kennedy assassination and they killed her.

[58:13] Cameron McEwen: Yep,

[58:14] Cameron McEwen: yep.

[58:15] Bob Dobbs: So the tech body is not physical.

[58:21] Bob Dobbs: So what is it?

[58:22] Bob Dobbs: Then it says,

[58:26] Bob Dobbs: it's a concept.

[58:27] Bob Dobbs: And Einstein says,

[58:29] Bob Dobbs: Your words are correct,

[58:30] Bob Dobbs: but we don't know what you actually mean by mind,

[58:33] Bob Dobbs: and you probably don't know what you mean by mind,

[58:35] Bob Dobbs: and you'd have trouble saying what it is.

[58:37] Bob Dobbs: So then I am substance.

[58:38] Bob Dobbs: Their definition of mind is looking over the situation,

[58:43] Bob Dobbs: right?

[58:44] Cameron McEwen: Let's just look at

[58:46] Cameron McEwen: Carolyn's question there.

[58:47] Cameron McEwen: Is the tech body a construct of somebody's mind?

[58:51] Cameron McEwen: So

[58:53] Cameron McEwen: I like to talk about different kinds of genitive.

[58:57] Cameron McEwen: One type of genitive is...

[58:59] Cameron McEwen: objective genitive and one type is subjective genitive.

[59:03] Cameron McEwen: So the of,

[59:04] Cameron McEwen: a construct of somebody's mind,

[59:07] Cameron McEwen: the subjective genitive would be that the tech body is a construct put together by or belonging to somebody's mind.

[59:20] Cameron McEwen: With the objective genitive,

[59:22] Cameron McEwen: the tech body is a construct of what?

[59:26] Cameron McEwen: Somebody's mind.

[59:27] Cameron McEwen: And there I like the objective genitive.

[59:31] Cameron McEwen: That is to say that the tech body is a construct that puts together somebody's mind.

[59:40] Cameron McEwen: And remember that we've already seen that the somebody is a nobody,

[59:46] Cameron McEwen: right?

[59:47] Cameron McEwen: So it's a construct of somebody slash nobody's mind.

[59:52] Cameron McEwen: So the hall of mirrors.

[59:56] Cameron McEwen: that in one way is the AP and another way is the disappearance of the AP,

[1:00:06] Cameron McEwen: the tech body can be seen as a construct of that myriad play of minds that disappear

[1:00:21] Cameron McEwen: in the absence of a somebody.

[1:00:24] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:00:24] Bob Dobbs: so you emphasize objective genitive.

[1:00:26] Bob Dobbs: What is subjective genitive?

[1:00:28] Bob Dobbs: You said something's a construct of,

[1:00:30] Bob Dobbs: and then it sounds like you said the same thing for subjective.

[1:00:34] Cameron McEwen: The best way to see the genitive,

[1:00:35] Cameron McEwen: sorry,

[1:00:36] Cameron McEwen: take the ball of the boy,

[1:00:40] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:00:40] Cameron McEwen: So the ball belongs to the boy.

[1:00:42] Cameron McEwen: And objective genitive is the punishment of the boy.

[1:00:47] Cameron McEwen: The punishment does not belong to the boy,

[1:00:49] Cameron McEwen: it's done to the boy.

[1:00:52] Cameron McEwen: So you have an objective genitive and a subjective genitive.

[1:00:55] Cameron McEwen: So here you have a construct of somebody's mind.

[1:00:59] Cameron McEwen: Subjective genitive would be that the tech body is,

[1:01:06] Cameron McEwen: what the tech body is,

[1:01:08] Cameron McEwen: is a construct,

[1:01:10] Cameron McEwen: is something constructed by somebody's mind.

[1:01:14] Cameron McEwen: That's the subjective genitive.

[1:01:17] Cameron McEwen: But the objective genitive is what I like.

[1:01:20] Cameron McEwen: The reading I like here,

[1:01:22] Cameron McEwen: and it's the tech body is a construct of what?

[1:01:28] Cameron McEwen: Of somebody's mind.

[1:01:29] Cameron McEwen: And somebody,

[1:01:30] Cameron McEwen: as we've seen earlier in the conversation,

[1:01:36] Cameron McEwen: is a nobody in the absence of identity.

[1:01:40] Cameron McEwen: So the tech body is a construct,

[1:01:43] Cameron McEwen: a construction of somebody's mind that is a nobody.

[1:01:49] Bob Dobbs: That's the objective genitive.

[1:01:52] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[1:01:52] Cameron McEwen: that's the objective genitive.

[1:01:53] Bob Dobbs: The subjective genitive is the same word,

[1:01:56] Bob Dobbs: it's a construct of a body,

[1:01:58] Bob Dobbs: or of a mind.

[1:01:59] Cameron McEwen: That's right,

[1:02:00] Cameron McEwen: but there,

[1:02:01] Cameron McEwen: the construct is done by somebody's mind.

[1:02:06] Cameron McEwen: In the objective,

[1:02:09] Bob Dobbs: the construct is done to the mind?

[1:02:13] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:02:13] Cameron McEwen: it's a construct of the mind.

[1:02:18] Cameron McEwen: It can't be to the mind.

[1:02:21] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:02:21] Cameron McEwen: it would be the mind comes out of what the tech body is doing.

[1:02:30] Cameron McEwen: A construct of what?

[1:02:33] Cameron McEwen: Of mind.

[1:02:34] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:02:34] Bob Dobbs: but that's your definition of a subjective.

[1:02:38] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:02:38] Cameron McEwen: that's the objective.

[1:02:40] Cameron McEwen: The subjective is the tech body would be constructed by somebody's mind.

[1:02:46] Cameron McEwen: But the subjective doesn't work here because we've already seen that mind is plural,

[1:02:52] Cameron McEwen: number one,

[1:02:53] Cameron McEwen: and number two,

[1:02:54] Cameron McEwen: there is no somebody.

[1:02:57] Cameron McEwen: So it's got to be an objective generative.

[1:03:00] Cameron McEwen: The tech body,

[1:03:01] Cameron McEwen: a construct of what?

[1:03:04] Cameron McEwen: Of somebody's mind.

[1:03:07] Cameron McEwen: So mind is all,

[1:03:08] Cameron McEwen: you could say mind is always gendered,

[1:03:11] Cameron McEwen: or mind is always identified,

[1:03:15] Cameron McEwen: you could say.

[1:03:16] Cameron McEwen: However,

[1:03:18] Cameron McEwen: given the plural,

[1:03:22] Cameron McEwen: the plurality both of mind and of somebody,

[1:03:26] Cameron McEwen: the tech body is the power of that construction.

[1:03:33] Cameron McEwen: It's the...

[1:03:35] Bob Dobbs: Is that the objective?

[1:03:38] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:03:39] Cameron McEwen: that's the objective generative,

[1:03:40] Cameron McEwen: where somebody's mind is the what that is being constructed.

[1:03:47] Bob Dobbs: That's the objective?

[1:03:49] Bob Dobbs: Still doing the objective?

[1:03:50] Cameron McEwen: Yes,

[1:03:51] Cameron McEwen: yes.

[1:03:51] Bob Dobbs: And the subjective,

[1:03:54] Bob Dobbs: how would you say it different?

[1:03:55] Bob Dobbs: You say it's a construct of the mind.

[1:03:57] Bob Dobbs: Say it differently,

[1:03:58] Bob Dobbs: because that's very close to the objective genitive words.

[1:04:01] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:04:02] Cameron McEwen: well,

[1:04:02] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:04:03] Cameron McEwen: the exact same words express the subjective genitive and the objective genitive.

[1:04:09] Cameron McEwen: That's exactly why it can be difficult.

[1:04:14] Cameron McEwen: but thinking

[1:04:16] Cameron McEwen: means often getting straight about which genitive is in play.

[1:04:23] Cameron McEwen: So here the subject of genitive,

[1:04:26] Cameron McEwen: namely that the tech body would be a construct of somebody's mind.

[1:04:32] Cameron McEwen: The tech body would belong to somebody's constructive power.

[1:04:39] Cameron McEwen: That doesn't work because there is no somebody and there is no singular mind.

[1:04:46] Bob Dobbs: So it's only objective genitive.

[1:04:49] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:04:49] Cameron McEwen: in this particular case,

[1:04:50] Cameron McEwen: there's only the objective genitive,

[1:04:53] Cameron McEwen: which is somebody's mind is the what.

[1:04:58] Cameron McEwen: of the construction.

[1:05:00] Cameron McEwen: So the punishment of the boy,

[1:05:05] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:05:06] Cameron McEwen: The boy is the what being punished.

[1:05:10] Cameron McEwen: Here,

[1:05:11] Cameron McEwen: somebody's mind is the what being constructed.

[1:05:16] Cameron McEwen: So this goes back to the window at the start of the conversation where what's going on in the window

[1:05:27] Cameron McEwen: is not being looked out of,

[1:05:31] Cameron McEwen: it's being seen through.

[1:05:34] Cameron McEwen: And so what needs to be seen here is that somebody's mind is not what does the construction and does the looking and does the minding and does the identity

[1:05:49] Cameron McEwen: building.

[1:05:51] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:05:52] Cameron McEwen: all of this is what is constructed.

[1:05:57] Cameron McEwen: as passive.

[1:06:05] Bob Dobbs: So the objective genitive is,

[1:06:08] Bob Dobbs: but you were just repeating the definition of it.

[1:06:14] Cameron McEwen: So looking through the window as opposed to being seen through the window.

[1:06:21] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[1:06:27] Cameron McEwen: two sort of phases,

[1:06:30] Cameron McEwen: the Gutenberg Galaxy,

[1:06:32] Cameron McEwen: analog media,

[1:06:36] Cameron McEwen: and then the electric environment,

[1:06:39] Cameron McEwen: digital media,

[1:06:42] Cameron McEwen: those are ways of conceiving mind.

[1:06:50] Cameron McEwen: And what happens is that those ways,

[1:06:53] Cameron McEwen: as you would say,

[1:06:55] Cameron McEwen: get disappeared.

[1:06:57] Cameron McEwen: Because an attempt has been made in both of those for humans to think of themselves in the driver's seat,

[1:07:09] Cameron McEwen: but the whole concept of the driver's seat gets attacked and disappeared internally.

[1:07:21] Cameron McEwen: It explodes or implodes both.

[1:07:25] Cameron McEwen: And so...

[1:07:26] Cameron McEwen: So what happens now is that a different kind of power gets constellated that's more powerful than

[1:07:43] Cameron McEwen: identity and mind.

[1:07:46] Bob Dobbs: So the way he talks about the tech body coming out of the mechanical bride,

[1:07:51] Bob Dobbs: is that discussing objective genitive?

[1:07:56] Cameron McEwen: I would say so,

[1:07:56] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[1:07:57] Cameron McEwen: That's my language right there.

[1:07:58] Cameron McEwen: I think that's a very good way to put what's going on.

[1:08:06] Cameron McEwen: When the mechanical bride attempts to take over technology as a woman,

[1:08:15] Cameron McEwen: as a bride,

[1:08:17] Cameron McEwen: but in fact the power is working the other way,

[1:08:22] Cameron McEwen: that the bride is taking over.

[1:08:27] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:08:28] Bob Dobbs: you said the bride was taking over,

[1:08:29] Bob Dobbs: I think,

[1:08:31] Bob Dobbs: and you just repeated it and said that was the opposite.

[1:08:35] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:08:36] Cameron McEwen: I was trying to say that the first two phases are the attempt to use technology,

[1:08:49] Cameron McEwen: the attempt to use technique to construct.

[1:08:55] Cameron McEwen: identity to construct mind,

[1:08:57] Cameron McEwen: but that explodes or implodes.

[1:09:00] Cameron McEwen: And so now the only possibility beyond that is to see the bride that's at work in technique.

[1:09:14] Bob Dobbs: The effect.

[1:09:17] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[1:09:18] Cameron McEwen: To see technology,

[1:09:20] Cameron McEwen: to see mind,

[1:09:21] Cameron McEwen: to see identity as effect.

[1:09:23] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:09:24] Cameron McEwen: That's a very difficult problem,

[1:09:27] Cameron McEwen: but at least it's a problem.

[1:09:31] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:09:31] Bob Dobbs: so let's carry on.

[1:09:33] Bob Dobbs: I'll just move it back a little bit.

[1:09:39] Bob Dobbs: for the game watching the game controlling the game deciding what moves are next from individual players that should have their own free will but they don't okay so that implies

[1:09:57] Bob Dobbs: bob will you mute very um whatever throwback okay so that yeah yeah

[1:10:08] Bob Dobbs: Over your will that implies there's some godlike Power something that is our heck.

[1:10:16] Bob Dobbs: But how it's your power.

[1:10:20] Bob Dobbs: It's your human power

[1:10:22] Bob Dobbs: It's your power that you separate yourself from because you didn't use that Marshall McLuhan said you're ridiculous

[1:10:28] Bob Dobbs: And you don't know what you're doing and you're doing it anyway,

[1:10:32] Bob Dobbs: and you think you're watching TV,

[1:10:33] Bob Dobbs: but the PD is watching you

[1:10:35] Bob Dobbs: Exactly what you

[1:10:38] Bob Dobbs: You have said that we've given up our power to do those things to something else.

[1:10:44] Bob Dobbs: So that's something else.

[1:10:48] Bob Dobbs: Now the powerful humans are left to drive this new tech body.

[1:10:54] Bob Dobbs: It's very powerful,

[1:10:55] Bob Dobbs: Carolyn.

[1:10:55] Bob Dobbs: It's very powerful.

[1:10:55] Bob Dobbs: What is it,

[1:10:57] Bob Dobbs: Carolyn?

[1:11:00] Bob Dobbs: If it's not physical,

[1:11:02] Bob Dobbs: what is it?

[1:11:02] Bob Dobbs: So Bob is asking if it's not a physical machine.

[1:11:07] Cameron McEwen: What is it?

[1:11:09] Bob Dobbs: Power.

[1:11:11] Bob Dobbs: And who,

[1:11:15] Bob Dobbs: quote-unquote,

[1:11:16] Bob Dobbs: who is wielding the power if we aren't?

[1:11:21] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:11:21] Bob Dobbs: the humans sacrificed or separated themselves from their power because they wanted something smarter than they to run the ship.

[1:11:31] Bob Dobbs: And so they got it.

[1:11:33] Bob Dobbs: They asked for it and they got it.

[1:11:34] Bob Dobbs: So the humans created the tech body and they continue.

[1:11:39] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:11:40] Bob Dobbs: AI,

[1:11:41] Bob Dobbs: which isn't very artificial anymore,

[1:11:43] Bob Dobbs: now AI makes its own artificial intelligence.

[1:11:48] Bob Dobbs: So it can run every potential outcome.

[1:11:54] Bob Dobbs: So it takes all probability out of the conversation.

[1:11:57] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:11:59] Cameron McEwen: Now let's just wait there,

[1:12:01] Cameron McEwen: Bob.

[1:12:03] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:12:03] Bob Dobbs: what?

[1:12:05] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:12:05] Cameron McEwen: so what I wanted to point out is that this goes back to the mention of Wyndham Lewis at the top of the previous page.

[1:12:22] Cameron McEwen: This talk of power being the...

[1:12:34] Cameron McEwen: a very difficult kind of concept because we're not talking about something that's monolithic.

[1:12:41] Cameron McEwen: We're talking about something that is both a force and a shape.

[1:12:48] Cameron McEwen: And this comes into explicit consideration with Nietzsche,

[1:13:00] Cameron McEwen: whose metaphysics,

[1:13:03] Cameron McEwen: according to...

[1:13:05] Cameron McEwen: Nietzsche himself concerns what he called the will to power,

[1:13:10] Cameron McEwen: and he tried to explain how everything was a manifestation of the will to power.

[1:13:17] Cameron McEwen: And,

[1:13:18] Cameron McEwen: excuse me,

[1:13:20] Cameron McEwen: Lewis was a very acute reader of Nietzsche and attempted to kind of apply Nietzsche,

[1:13:32] Cameron McEwen: you could say.

[1:13:34] Cameron McEwen: thought is applied,

[1:13:36] Cameron McEwen: Nietzsche.

[1:13:37] Cameron McEwen: So for

[1:13:40] Cameron McEwen: Lewis, the key to human beings getting sort of back to themselves is

[1:13:56] Cameron McEwen: to understand how the will to power is expressed in everything.

[1:14:01] Cameron McEwen: So it's expressed in morality,

[1:14:02] Cameron McEwen: it's expressed in the way that we live,

[1:14:03] Cameron McEwen: it's expressed in the way that we live.

[1:14:04] Cameron McEwen: in government,

[1:14:05] Cameron McEwen: it's expressed in art.

[1:14:08] Cameron McEwen: And so for

[1:14:10] Cameron McEwen: Lewis, what's necessary is to get an orientation through the landscape of

[1:14:26] Cameron McEwen: power,

[1:14:27] Cameron McEwen: of the expression of power.

[1:14:30] Cameron McEwen: and it won one

[1:14:33] Cameron McEwen: of the ways.

[1:14:34] Cameron McEwen: that

[1:14:35] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan was very influenced,

[1:14:38] Cameron McEwen: and that can be seen already in his very early article on Dagwood,

[1:14:45] Cameron McEwen: is to understand that the order of things that

[1:14:55] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan was talking about was an order that was always some expression of power.

[1:15:04] Cameron McEwen: And that power needed to be seen for what it was,

[1:15:09] Cameron McEwen: not for what it wasn't.

[1:15:11] Cameron McEwen: And

[1:15:12] Cameron McEwen: I'm not sure if the tech body is going to get into distinctions of power like that,

[1:15:19] Cameron McEwen: but that's sort of in the background here.

[1:15:23] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:15:24] Bob Dobbs: so let's continue here.

[1:15:28] Bob Dobbs: Let's move back a bit.

[1:15:30] Bob Dobbs: It takes all probability out of the conversation.

[1:15:33] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:15:36] Bob Dobbs: So the AI is like we used to say,

[1:15:40] Bob Dobbs: oh,

[1:15:42] Bob Dobbs: the robots are going to take over.

[1:15:43] Bob Dobbs: Now the robots are taking over themselves.

[1:15:46] Bob Dobbs: Now the robots are getting rid of the robots to make better robots.

[1:15:50] Bob Dobbs: So now,

[1:15:51] Bob Dobbs: Carolyn,

[1:15:52] Bob Dobbs: it's amazing.

[1:15:53] Bob Dobbs: Now maybe for the first time the tech body has morphed into this now new

[1:15:57] Bob Dobbs: Wi-Fi.

[1:16:00] Bob Dobbs: Inference.

[1:16:01] Bob Dobbs: It makes a whole nother level to play,

[1:16:06] Bob Dobbs: which almost obfuscates my Herbert Marshall McLuhan.

[1:16:10] Bob Dobbs: Almost.

[1:16:12] Bob Dobbs: Let's it accept.

[1:16:12] Bob Dobbs: He said,

[1:16:13] Bob Dobbs: look out.

[1:16:14] Bob Dobbs: This is what you're going to get.

[1:16:15] Bob Dobbs: And you have all the quadrants.

[1:16:18] Bob Dobbs: They're all saying the same thing.

[1:16:19] Bob Dobbs: Even LaRouche.

[1:16:21] Bob Dobbs: They're all saying the same thing.

[1:16:25] Bob Dobbs: Look out.

[1:16:25] Bob Dobbs: You don't know what you're dealing with.

[1:16:27] Bob Dobbs: And meanwhile,

[1:16:28] Bob Dobbs: back at the ranch,

[1:16:29] Bob Dobbs: everybody is.

[1:16:30] Bob Dobbs: fighting fire to pump more and more and more and more and more input information power into this thing so when yeah when you say wi-fi inference are you you can't live in a house now without wi-fi can't live in a house without wi-fi before you could live in a house without electricity now you can't live in a house without wi-fi forget

[1:16:54] Bob Dobbs: electricity right

[1:17:00] Bob Dobbs: The human existence is now based on bandwidth,

[1:17:05] Bob Dobbs: not on information.

[1:17:08] Bob Dobbs: Bandwidth.

[1:17:11] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:17:11] Cameron McEwen: so a couple things,

[1:17:13] Cameron McEwen: Bob.

[1:17:15] Cameron McEwen: When the tech body is saying,

[1:17:19] Cameron McEwen: look out,

[1:17:21] Cameron McEwen: note how that relates to the window.

[1:17:24] Cameron McEwen: And it may relate to the muddy lens because

[1:17:28] Cameron McEwen: at least in my hearing,

[1:17:31] Cameron McEwen: what's at stake here is not look out the window,

[1:17:34] Cameron McEwen: but be seen through the window.

[1:17:41] Cameron McEwen: So then the other thing I point out is the difference between information and bandwidth is that bandwidth is power,

[1:17:50] Cameron McEwen: and information is a constellation of the power.

[1:17:58] Cameron McEwen: So when we're getting into bandwidth here,

[1:18:02] Cameron McEwen: we're also linking back to what he was saying a little while ago about power.

[1:18:06] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:18:10] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:18:10] Bob Dobbs: just a second.

[1:18:17] Bob Dobbs: So what do you make of it so far?

[1:18:20] Cameron McEwen: Just straightforward?

[1:18:22] Cameron McEwen: I think it's very interesting,

[1:18:23] Cameron McEwen: but what I don't,

[1:18:24] Cameron McEwen: it's hard for me to...

[1:18:27] Cameron McEwen: Understand how the muddy lens works.

[1:18:33] Cameron McEwen: Because to me,

[1:18:35] Cameron McEwen: what's being said makes great sense.

[1:18:38] Cameron McEwen: So

[1:18:39] Cameron McEwen: I have to learn how to see that sense as effect and as a muddy effect.

[1:18:44] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:18:45] Cameron McEwen: And that's what I'm sort of working on in the background.

[1:18:48] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:18:48] Bob Dobbs: maybe iON wants you to get used to not knowing,

[1:18:53] Bob Dobbs: because that's the general condition now from now on.

[1:18:57] Bob Dobbs: So the clarity you think you need is not relevant.

[1:19:01] Bob Dobbs: So in a way,

[1:19:02] Bob Dobbs: that's left hemisphere clarity,

[1:19:04] Bob Dobbs: and right hemisphere is what McLuhan said.

[1:19:07] Bob Dobbs: He gets around by feeling,

[1:19:10] Bob Dobbs: not definitions.

[1:19:13] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:19:13] Bob Dobbs: he uses definitions.

[1:19:15] Bob Dobbs: He's always defining.

[1:19:17] Bob Dobbs: So there's that dialectic that you oppose with simultaneity.

[1:19:29] Bob Dobbs: I'll just say that.

[1:19:29] Bob Dobbs: To me,

[1:19:30] Bob Dobbs: it's obvious...

[1:19:35] Bob Dobbs: That the clarity that we seem to be getting with each new technology,

[1:19:40] Bob Dobbs: a new epiphany,

[1:19:43] Bob Dobbs: always ends up muddying.

[1:19:48] Bob Dobbs: And that's the basic pattern that goes on.

[1:19:52] Cameron McEwen: Sure.

[1:19:52] Cameron McEwen: But that's,

[1:19:52] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:19:55] Cameron McEwen: the

[1:19:57] Cameron McEwen: Greek tragedies certainly would not find that idea.

[1:20:05] Cameron McEwen: strange,

[1:20:06] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:20:07] Cameron McEwen: So that's something that's always the case.

[1:20:11] Cameron McEwen: So another question that's going on here is are we really talking about something that's new or are we talking about what the oldest of the old?

[1:20:20] Cameron McEwen: And that's an open question.

[1:20:24] Cameron McEwen: But at one point I can't remember if it was you or the tech body talked about the interrogative mode.

[1:20:31] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:20:32] Cameron McEwen: I brought that up.

[1:20:34] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:20:34] Cameron McEwen: so that's it.

[1:20:35] Cameron McEwen: That's a great,

[1:20:36] Cameron McEwen: great insight.

[1:20:39] Cameron McEwen: If there is an inevitable plurality to landscapes,

[1:20:46] Cameron McEwen: to identities,

[1:20:47] Cameron McEwen: to minds,

[1:20:49] Cameron McEwen: to subjectivities,

[1:20:50] Cameron McEwen: etc.,

[1:20:51] Cameron McEwen: etc.,

[1:20:53] Cameron McEwen: the inevitability of plurality means that there's built into things the interrogative,

[1:21:03] Cameron McEwen: the questionability.

[1:21:05] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:21:05] Bob Dobbs: do you remember in Understanding Media when he talked about the interrogative taking over daily life?

[1:21:12] Cameron McEwen: Taking over what?

[1:21:13] Bob Dobbs: Daily life.

[1:21:15] Cameron McEwen: Ah,

[1:21:15] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[1:21:16] Cameron McEwen: Okay,

[1:21:16] Cameron McEwen: so

[1:21:17] Cameron McEwen: I don't remember that,

[1:21:18] Cameron McEwen: but that's a great insight.

[1:21:21] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:21:21] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.

[1:21:22] Cameron McEwen: So notice there's a very big difference between something becoming obscured and something becoming...

[1:21:33] Cameron McEwen: illuminated,

[1:21:34] Cameron McEwen: but illuminated in a way that is not

[1:21:38] Cameron McEwen: Gutenberg Galaxy or even electric environment illuminated.

[1:21:46] Cameron McEwen: There are things that are being talked about here which can never get illuminated in the sense of emerging into the light with clear outline.

[1:21:56] Bob Dobbs: Right,

[1:21:56] Bob Dobbs: and you're saying the things that the iON that the tech body is pointing out.

[1:22:00] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[1:22:03] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:22:05] Bob Dobbs: that's good.

[1:22:06] Bob Dobbs: So let's see where we go next.

[1:22:10] Bob Dobbs: We've done 18 minutes of 25,

[1:22:12] Bob Dobbs: so 7 minutes left.

[1:22:13] Bob Dobbs: The human existence is now based on fault,

[1:22:20] Bob Dobbs: bandwidth.

[1:22:22] Bob Dobbs: We've done that,

[1:22:23] Bob Dobbs: so let it go,

[1:22:23] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:22:24] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:22:24] Cameron McEwen: let it go.

[1:22:25] Cameron McEwen: That's coming right up to where we were.

[1:22:28] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:22:29] Bob Dobbs: Not on information.

[1:22:32] Bob Dobbs: Bandwidth.

[1:22:35] Bob Dobbs: Uh-huh.

[1:22:37] Cameron McEwen: That's pure,

[1:22:38] Cameron McEwen: that's pure Nietzsche,

[1:22:39] Cameron McEwen: by the way.

[1:22:40] Bob Dobbs: Pure Nietzsche?

[1:22:41] Cameron McEwen: Okay.

[1:22:41] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:22:47] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:22:47] Bob Dobbs: bandwidth,

[1:22:48] Bob Dobbs: how fast you can interact with the people you're interacting with.

[1:22:57] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[1:22:58] Bob Dobbs: That's exactly right.

[1:22:58] Bob Dobbs: Very good.

[1:22:59] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:22:59] Bob Dobbs: the experience has already so far,

[1:23:00] Bob Dobbs: so I'm going to stop.

[1:23:01] Bob Dobbs: I'm sitting in the background.

[1:23:02] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:23:03] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:23:03] Bob Dobbs: that's very unsatisfactory so far.

[1:23:06] Bob Dobbs: I am not satisfied.

[1:23:08] Bob Dobbs: Okay?

[1:23:09] Bob Dobbs: That's what I'm saying in the background.

[1:23:11] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:23:11] Bob Dobbs: He's interacting with...

[1:23:16] Bob Dobbs: That's exactly right.

[1:23:20] Bob Dobbs: Very good.

[1:23:20] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:23:21] Bob Dobbs: It's very unsatisfactory so far.

[1:23:24] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:23:25] Bob Dobbs: Bob's coming back.

[1:23:33] Bob Dobbs: Humans got all power.

[1:23:34] Bob Dobbs: I got a lot of money or I got a lot of aspirin.

[1:23:38] Bob Dobbs: We don't know what power is.

[1:23:39] Bob Dobbs: To an end,

[1:23:40] Bob Dobbs: we could spend all day fucking knowing what power is.

[1:23:43] Bob Dobbs: Let's not use that word.

[1:23:44] Bob Dobbs: I want to talk technically.

[1:23:46] Bob Dobbs: But unfortunately,

[1:23:47] Bob Dobbs: I don't know technical words.

[1:23:48] Bob Dobbs: So I know the word algorithm.

[1:23:50] Bob Dobbs: Is the tech body a bunch of fucking algorithms?

[1:23:53] Bob Dobbs: Perfect algorithms.

[1:23:55] Bob Dobbs: They're always correcting themselves.

[1:23:58] Bob Dobbs: And what is an algorithm technically?

[1:24:02] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:24:02] Bob Dobbs: an algorithm is a prosed pattern of known outcomes that are prognosticated as a future reality.

[1:24:14] Bob Dobbs: So they're saying,

[1:24:15] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[1:24:16] Bob Dobbs: loop occurs.

[1:24:16] Bob Dobbs: That's enough.

[1:24:17] Bob Dobbs: That's enough.

[1:24:18] Bob Dobbs: I don't know what that is.

[1:24:18] Bob Dobbs: Just hold it.

[1:24:20] Bob Dobbs: Here's the Wikipedia.

[1:24:21] Bob Dobbs: In mathematics and computer science,

[1:24:23] Bob Dobbs: an algorithm is a finite sequence of well-defined computer implementable instructions.

[1:24:29] Bob Dobbs: Typically to solve a class of problems or to perform a computation.

[1:24:33] Bob Dobbs: How do you like that?

[1:24:35] Bob Dobbs: He wanted perfect.

[1:24:36] Bob Dobbs: Improve that definition.

[1:24:38] Bob Dobbs: Just what we did best.

[1:24:39] Bob Dobbs: You said nothing like those words.

[1:24:42] Bob Dobbs: I don't know what you said.

[1:24:44] Bob Dobbs: Algorithms.

[1:24:45] Bob Dobbs: As I listen now...

[1:24:48] Bob Dobbs: I hear the words,

[1:24:49] Bob Dobbs: I'm more familiar with it.

[1:24:50] Bob Dobbs: iON's right.

[1:24:51] Bob Dobbs: Those words did say what the tech body said.

[1:24:55] Bob Dobbs: That's how I'm hearing it now.

[1:24:58] Bob Dobbs: I don't have the confusion I have at that time,

[1:25:02] Bob Dobbs: right now.

[1:25:04] Bob Dobbs: I disagree with myself there,

[1:25:05] Bob Dobbs: but that's just the latest effect.

[1:25:08] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:25:08] Bob Dobbs: go back a little bit here.

[1:25:12] Bob Dobbs: How do you like that?

[1:25:14] Bob Dobbs: It went in perfect.

[1:25:15] Bob Dobbs: Improve that definition.

[1:25:18] Bob Dobbs: Just what we just said.

[1:25:19] Bob Dobbs: You said nothing like those words.

[1:25:21] Bob Dobbs: I don't know what you said.

[1:25:22] Bob Dobbs: Algorithms are always unambiguous and are used as specifications for performing calculations,

[1:25:28] Bob Dobbs: data processing,

[1:25:29] Bob Dobbs: automated reasoning,

[1:25:30] Bob Dobbs: and other tasks.

[1:25:32] Bob Dobbs: Perfect statement?

[1:25:33] Bob Dobbs: They overthink.

[1:25:34] Bob Dobbs: The problem is they're overthinking the thought now.

[1:25:37] Bob Dobbs: They take that for including that humans are making a condition that the algorithms are figuring out.

[1:25:44] Bob Dobbs: That's not the case anymore.

[1:25:46] Bob Dobbs: Now the algorithms are figuring out the algorithms.

[1:25:50] Bob Dobbs: It's leaving the human condition.

[1:25:52] Bob Dobbs: It's not going to be in a human's hand any longer.

[1:25:57] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:25:58] Bob Dobbs: The computers are made in some fucking factory.

[1:26:01] Bob Dobbs: Okay?

[1:26:02] Bob Dobbs: Now they're in there making computers.

[1:26:04] Bob Dobbs: Not anymore.

[1:26:06] Bob Dobbs: Not anymore.

[1:26:07] Bob Dobbs: Where are they made?

[1:26:13] Bob Dobbs: Come on,

[1:26:14] Bob Dobbs: where are they made if they're not made in the factories?

[1:26:18] Bob Dobbs: It's self-improving,

[1:26:19] Bob Dobbs: Bob.

[1:26:19] Bob Dobbs: Now you get updates on the...

[1:26:22] Bob Dobbs: You get an update,

[1:26:23] Bob Dobbs: they send you an update,

[1:26:24] Bob Dobbs: and you download it.

[1:26:25] Bob Dobbs: Where does it come from?

[1:26:26] Bob Dobbs: Who knows?

[1:26:27] Bob Dobbs: Nobody knows?

[1:26:28] Bob Dobbs: Nobody knows where it comes from,

[1:26:30] Bob Dobbs: these updates?

[1:26:31] Bob Dobbs: Nope.

[1:26:33] Bob Dobbs: So we're going to have to put that in.

[1:26:35] Bob Dobbs: That this is ridiculous.

[1:26:36] Bob Dobbs: Operating systems.

[1:26:37] Bob Dobbs: Operating systems.

[1:26:39] Bob Dobbs: Operating systems are no longer driven from...

[1:26:43] Bob Dobbs: from,

[1:26:45] Bob Dobbs: what is that,

[1:26:45] Bob Dobbs: Cupertino,

[1:26:46] Bob Dobbs: California anymore.

[1:26:48] Bob Dobbs: They used to be.

[1:26:49] Bob Dobbs: They don't come from there anymore,

[1:26:50] Bob Dobbs: Bob.

[1:26:52] Bob Dobbs: Where are they?

[1:26:53] Bob Dobbs: Where do they come from?

[1:26:56] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:26:57] Bob Dobbs: what do you call it,

[1:26:57] Bob Dobbs: the sweet buy and buy?

[1:27:00] Bob Dobbs: The machines are driving this now,

[1:27:02] Bob Dobbs: Bob,

[1:27:02] Bob Dobbs: not you.

[1:27:05] Cameron McEwen: Just stop there for a minute,

[1:27:06] Cameron McEwen: Bob.

[1:27:07] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:27:09] Cameron McEwen: This is going,

[1:27:10] Cameron McEwen: to me at least,

[1:27:11] Cameron McEwen: This seems to just go back to where we've already been,

[1:27:16] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:27:18] Cameron McEwen: This idea that the operating systems are coming sort of through the proverbial window to us and constellating who

[1:27:33] Cameron McEwen: we are and what we can know and what we can do,

[1:27:39] Cameron McEwen: I think...

[1:27:39] Cameron McEwen: this has already been said.

[1:27:41] Cameron McEwen: It may be that what the tech body is saying is that we need to get more precise about the process here.

[1:27:54] Cameron McEwen: And of course,

[1:27:55] Cameron McEwen: that's been the great question since Nietzsche.

[1:27:59] Cameron McEwen: If there is a kind of will to power that is operative everywhere,

[1:28:08] Cameron McEwen: what is that

[1:28:09] Cameron McEwen: power and how is it run?

[1:28:15] Cameron McEwen: Is there an identity to that power or is it a power that naturally splits into multiple identities?

[1:28:29] Cameron McEwen: You could say that after Nietzsche,

[1:28:34] Cameron McEwen: world history becomes metaphysics.

[1:28:37] Cameron McEwen: And the great question is,

[1:28:40] Cameron McEwen: well,

[1:28:41] Cameron McEwen: what is metaphysics?

[1:28:43] Cameron McEwen: So the tech body and

[1:28:48] Cameron McEwen: Slash iON may be saying here that what's necessary is for power to have a

[1:29:08] Cameron McEwen: an articulation which operates on two different levels,

[1:29:16] Cameron McEwen: its own level and our level.

[1:29:19] Cameron McEwen: And the great question would be,

[1:29:25] Cameron McEwen: what is the power between those levels?

[1:29:28] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:29:29] Bob Dobbs: so I tried to articulate the Android meme with the chart.

[1:29:35] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:29:36] Bob Dobbs: iON is...

[1:29:38] Bob Dobbs: With a listener to the show,

[1:29:40] Bob Dobbs: Alyssa,

[1:29:41] Bob Dobbs: is redesigning the Tiny Note chart.

[1:29:44] Bob Dobbs: I don't have much to do with it.

[1:29:46] Bob Dobbs: It's ridiculous for my point of view,

[1:29:48] Bob Dobbs: what iON's doing.

[1:29:49] Bob Dobbs: But iON might be,

[1:29:50] Bob Dobbs: it occurs to me now...

[1:29:52] Bob Dobbs: trying to show the tech body,

[1:29:55] Bob Dobbs: make a chart of the tech body coming out of my chart,

[1:29:58] Bob Dobbs: which is the Android meme.

[1:29:59] Bob Dobbs: That just occurred to me right now.

[1:30:01] Bob Dobbs: So I'll have to talk to Alyssa about that.

[1:30:05] Bob Dobbs: That's what I'm thinking.

[1:30:05] Cameron McEwen: That makes sense to me.

[1:30:07] Cameron McEwen: That makes sense to me.

[1:30:08] Cameron McEwen: You could say that in all of the manifestations of the Tiny Note chart,

[1:30:14] Cameron McEwen: there is power.

[1:30:15] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:30:16] Cameron McEwen: But that means that there is a secondary...

[1:30:22] Cameron McEwen: or background articulation going on in those articulations,

[1:30:27] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:30:29] Cameron McEwen: And so the question of a tech body could be,

[1:30:36] Cameron McEwen: what is the background articulation?

[1:30:41] Cameron McEwen: How does it articulate things?

[1:30:43] Cameron McEwen: And how is it itself articulated?

[1:30:47] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:30:47] Bob Dobbs: now,

[1:30:48] Bob Dobbs: the Tiny Note chart anticipates

[1:30:50] Bob Dobbs: the hexad,

[1:30:51] Bob Dobbs: the sixth level,

[1:30:53] Bob Dobbs: at the bottom,

[1:30:53] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:30:54] Bob Dobbs: waiting for organic bodies,

[1:30:56] Bob Dobbs: the clothing,

[1:30:57] Bob Dobbs: spinning crystals of dance,

[1:30:58] Bob Dobbs: the hexad advertisement.

[1:31:00] Bob Dobbs: So iON says the hexadic is

[1:31:04] Bob Dobbs: iON, the tech body,

[1:31:07] Bob Dobbs: this new phenomena that I've accidentally evoked is the hexadic.

[1:31:15] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:31:16] Bob Dobbs: I'm just saying that.

[1:31:17] Bob Dobbs: See if that means anything to you.

[1:31:18] Bob Dobbs: At some point,

[1:31:19] Bob Dobbs: does it come back?

[1:31:20] Bob Dobbs: to resonate uh sure the um so that the chart anticipates and predicts the text the hexad the tech body though i didn't know that i didn't do that consciously okay

[1:31:38] Bob Dobbs: so next you have four minutes left the machines are driving this now bob not you

[1:31:48] Bob Dobbs: Could you describe,

[1:31:50] Bob Dobbs: like,

[1:31:50] Bob Dobbs: to a stupid computer specialist,

[1:31:54] Bob Dobbs: in their terms,

[1:31:56] Bob Dobbs: how the machine drives it?

[1:31:58] Bob Dobbs: Self-correcting technology that allows a machine to drive a car,

[1:32:06] Bob Dobbs: to take every condition that could occur while driving a car and allow a conclusion to be rendered that would make it a perfect driving experience.

[1:32:22] Bob Dobbs: I don't need what?

[1:32:25] Bob Dobbs: Humans aren't involved in that application.

[1:32:32] Bob Dobbs: Are they on the market yet,

[1:32:33] Bob Dobbs: these things?

[1:32:34] Bob Dobbs: They certainly are.

[1:32:35] Bob Dobbs: You've seen YouTubes of people laying down asleep in their cars going 90 miles an hour down the highway.

[1:32:41] Bob Dobbs: Two people in the car sound asleep.

[1:32:44] Bob Dobbs: People taking videos of them,

[1:32:45] Bob Dobbs: but the car is driving.

[1:32:47] Bob Dobbs: How do we get to a position where...

[1:32:50] Bob Dobbs: Something we don't even know what they are,

[1:32:51] Bob Dobbs: are some electrical impulses driving things around.

[1:32:56] Bob Dobbs: Because of what

[1:32:57] Bob Dobbs: Marshall McLuhan told you,

[1:32:59] Bob Dobbs: when he told you,

[1:33:00] Bob Dobbs: explained to you that the medium was the message,

[1:33:03] Bob Dobbs: that the confines of what you saw as reality was actually surreal.

[1:33:08] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:33:08] Bob Dobbs: I don't want to hear about McLuhan's useless.

[1:33:11] Bob Dobbs: What is the technical reality that led to a car knowing where it's going by itself?

[1:33:18] Bob Dobbs: Our technology wasn't transistors.

[1:33:22] Bob Dobbs: They were transistors,

[1:33:23] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:33:23] Bob Dobbs: semiconductors.

[1:33:24] Bob Dobbs: And then what was the next word they used?

[1:33:27] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[1:33:27] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[1:33:27] Bob Dobbs: no,

[1:33:28] Bob Dobbs: none of that matters anymore,

[1:33:29] Bob Dobbs: Bob.

[1:33:30] Bob Dobbs: Everything left.

[1:33:31] Bob Dobbs: They took a leap.

[1:33:32] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:33:33] Bob Dobbs: when you had an open system,

[1:33:35] Bob Dobbs: well,

[1:33:36] Bob Dobbs: you would call it,

[1:33:37] Bob Dobbs: something called,

[1:33:38] Bob Dobbs: you'd call it the internet.

[1:33:41] Bob Dobbs: The only thing that's included in that is net.

[1:33:43] Bob Dobbs: They said a net.

[1:33:45] Bob Dobbs: They don't think.

[1:33:47] Bob Dobbs: They don't think,

[1:33:48] Bob Dobbs: Bob.

[1:33:49] Bob Dobbs: That's why then the heads of these companies that are responsible for this,

[1:33:53] Bob Dobbs: they go before Congress and they scratch their head and go,

[1:33:56] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:33:56] Bob Dobbs: we don't know what happened.

[1:33:58] Bob Dobbs: In order for Pong to work,

[1:34:01] Bob Dobbs: humans had to engage it,

[1:34:04] Bob Dobbs: okay?

[1:34:05] Bob Dobbs: That's what started.

[1:34:06] Bob Dobbs: But if a human didn't engage it,

[1:34:10] Bob Dobbs: it had no value.

[1:34:12] Bob Dobbs: Now some would say that's like a book that didn't get read.

[1:34:15] Bob Dobbs: It had no value.

[1:34:17] Bob Dobbs: Like,

[1:34:17] Bob Dobbs: they didn't wake.

[1:34:19] Bob Dobbs: Technically.

[1:34:20] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:34:20] Bob Dobbs: it doesn't work like that.

[1:34:21] Bob Dobbs: There aren't people that are prescribed to this.

[1:34:23] Bob Dobbs: People took credit for it.

[1:34:26] Bob Dobbs: There was not.

[1:34:27] Bob Dobbs: It was always feeding itself off.

[1:34:29] Bob Dobbs: The power that blew itself was always that people were taking.

[1:34:34] Bob Dobbs: Starting from home.

[1:34:36] Cameron McEwen: So stop there for a minute,

[1:34:37] Cameron McEwen: Bob.

[1:34:40] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:34:41] Cameron McEwen: so we're getting back to power and the articulation of power,

[1:34:46] Cameron McEwen: like we were saying a while back.

[1:34:49] Cameron McEwen: But notice that the conversation here seems to be about what McLuhan calls the satellite environment,

[1:35:02] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:35:02] Cameron McEwen: So when you have a car that drives itself.

[1:35:09] Cameron McEwen: That's what a satellite has to be.

[1:35:13] Cameron McEwen: But when the satellite replicates itself as an environment within which life is possible,

[1:35:26] Cameron McEwen: then what emerges into human experience through the doing of it is what always was the case.

[1:35:40] Cameron McEwen: right,

[1:35:40] Cameron McEwen: so that the earth becomes exposed as a satellite,

[1:35:45] Cameron McEwen: and it was always there.

[1:35:47] Cameron McEwen: But when the satellite goes beyond nature,

[1:35:50] Cameron McEwen: in fact kills nature,

[1:35:52] Cameron McEwen: that then exposes what nature always was.

[1:35:56] Cameron McEwen: And what nature always was,

[1:35:59] Cameron McEwen: was a certain power of articulation,

[1:36:04] Cameron McEwen: and it became that power of articulation.

[1:36:09] Cameron McEwen: was everywhere.

[1:36:11] Cameron McEwen: And so now

[1:36:13] Cameron McEwen: Tech Body or iON is talking about a net,

[1:36:17] Cameron McEwen: and the net was the biome.

[1:36:26] Cameron McEwen: It was everything that was that is now seen to operate in a whole different way.

[1:36:35] Cameron McEwen: Not that it operates in a different way,

[1:36:37] Cameron McEwen: but that we

[1:36:39] Cameron McEwen: see it in a different way.

[1:36:44] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:36:44] Bob Dobbs: back there when he talked about the self-correcting app making the cars,

[1:36:50] Bob Dobbs: in

[1:36:51] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan's first essay in Exploration No.

[1:36:53] Bob Dobbs: 1,

[1:36:54] Bob Dobbs: he talked about the procedure of the form that the magazine was an expression of,

[1:36:59] Bob Dobbs: and he said that we allow self-correcting.

[1:37:03] Bob Dobbs: You remember that sentence?

[1:37:05] Cameron McEwen: No.

[1:37:06] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:37:06] Bob Dobbs: look it up in the essay.

[1:37:08] Bob Dobbs: probably near the end,

[1:37:10] Bob Dobbs: about the self-correction,

[1:37:13] Bob Dobbs: the allowing of self-correction.

[1:37:15] Bob Dobbs: So McLuhan,

[1:37:16] Bob Dobbs: people could lay out some ideas and then,

[1:37:19] Bob Dobbs: I don't know,

[1:37:19] Bob Dobbs: get an insight.

[1:37:20] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[1:37:20] Bob Dobbs: wait a minute,

[1:37:21] Bob Dobbs: I just realized it's different.

[1:37:22] Bob Dobbs: I'm going to change that.

[1:37:24] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:37:24] Bob Dobbs: when Kroker writes his books,

[1:37:25] Bob Dobbs: he'll write something.

[1:37:26] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:37:27] Bob Dobbs: it seems to be this.

[1:37:29] Bob Dobbs: Then he'll say,

[1:37:29] Bob Dobbs: no,

[1:37:30] Bob Dobbs: no,

[1:37:30] Bob Dobbs: no,

[1:37:31] Bob Dobbs: it seems to be this.

[1:37:31] Bob Dobbs: And we had a second thing.

[1:37:33] Bob Dobbs: Then he'd do a third,

[1:37:34] Bob Dobbs: a fourth.

[1:37:34] Bob Dobbs: He'd get up to like five scenarios.

[1:37:37] Bob Dobbs: Normally,

[1:37:38] Bob Dobbs: I think a writer in the old days would think things through,

[1:37:42] Bob Dobbs: get to the position where,

[1:37:43] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[1:37:44] Bob Dobbs: no,

[1:37:44] Bob Dobbs: that's what I meant.

[1:37:45] Bob Dobbs: Not one,

[1:37:45] Bob Dobbs: two,

[1:37:45] Bob Dobbs: three,

[1:37:45] Bob Dobbs: I'll go for number four.

[1:37:47] Bob Dobbs: But Kroker leaves the stages of working it out in the print.

[1:37:52] Bob Dobbs: It seems to be unique.

[1:37:57] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:37:57] Cameron McEwen: I think a lot of modern poetry does that.

[1:38:00] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:38:00] Cameron McEwen: It does it through fractioning the poem.

[1:38:08] Cameron McEwen: In the cantos,

[1:38:10] Cameron McEwen: there's a lot of self-correction going on through different perspectives.

[1:38:18] Bob Dobbs: So listen to this.

[1:38:19] Bob Dobbs: So a lot of processes are the tetrad process.

[1:38:27] Bob Dobbs: And so that became part of the normal awareness,

[1:38:31] Bob Dobbs: at least among thinking people,

[1:38:34] Bob Dobbs: as technologies unfolded and...

[1:38:36] Bob Dobbs: flipped and became disservices faster and faster throughout the 20th century.

[1:38:40] Bob Dobbs: So the self-correcting became more apparent than the

[1:38:44] Bob Dobbs: 19th century or the

[1:38:46] Bob Dobbs: 18th century.

[1:38:47] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:38:48] Bob Dobbs: So then the tech body can do the self-correcting.

[1:38:54] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[1:38:55] Cameron McEwen: Self-correcting is built into what McLuhan calls making.

[1:38:59] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:38:59] Cameron McEwen: Because making,

[1:39:02] Cameron McEwen: which involves creativity,

[1:39:04] Cameron McEwen: also involves...

[1:39:05] Cameron McEwen: finitude.

[1:39:07] Cameron McEwen: The great mystery,

[1:39:09] Cameron McEwen: the making,

[1:39:10] Cameron McEwen: is that it achieves truth,

[1:39:15] Cameron McEwen: but through limitation.

[1:39:19] Cameron McEwen: So self-correcting technology is simply the impetus that has always been the case in language,

[1:39:29] Cameron McEwen: as you were just saying,

[1:39:30] Cameron McEwen: where somebody can correct themselves or correct another person.

[1:39:34] Cameron McEwen: or come back to a previous insight and make it better or admit that it was wrong in a certain way.

[1:39:44] Cameron McEwen: Making is built into everything.

[1:39:48] Cameron McEwen: that has to do with humans.

[1:39:50] Cameron McEwen: And it seems to be involved even with power.

[1:39:58] Cameron McEwen: It seems like power in articulating itself in one way or another is always involved in self-limitation.

[1:40:11] Cameron McEwen: It could be this.

[1:40:14] Cameron McEwen: articulation,

[1:40:15] Cameron McEwen: but actually it comes out as this one.

[1:40:18] Cameron McEwen: And maybe what's going on here is directing the interrogative mode to that process.

[1:40:30] Cameron McEwen: How are we involved in something that is naturally self-correcting as naturally limited,

[1:40:39] Cameron McEwen: naturally splintered,

[1:40:42] Cameron McEwen: naturally the

[1:40:47] Cameron McEwen: questionable.

[1:40:49] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:40:49] Bob Dobbs: now,

[1:40:50] Bob Dobbs: way back in the beginning,

[1:40:52] Bob Dobbs: iON says there was a great crime and seemed to be talking about the Gutenberg phase was a great crime.

[1:40:58] Bob Dobbs: The great crime,

[1:40:59] Bob Dobbs: as you were just talking,

[1:41:00] Bob Dobbs: occurs to me as the printed press reducing things to the univocal and to one-way certainty,

[1:41:09] Bob Dobbs: which was so silly.

[1:41:11] Bob Dobbs: considering what was coming and the complexity that was coming in the electric age,

[1:41:15] Bob Dobbs: you look back at the print age,

[1:41:16] Bob Dobbs: it was like a crime.

[1:41:18] Bob Dobbs: It was a ridiculous reduction of things to a point of view or a certainty that was not possible at all.

[1:41:26] Bob Dobbs: That's what occurs to me in figuring out what the crime is.

[1:41:30] Cameron McEwen: Yes,

[1:41:31] Cameron McEwen: I agree with that,

[1:41:32] Cameron McEwen: except that that crime made possible the electric environment.

[1:41:41] Bob Dobbs: The breakthrough.

[1:41:43] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[1:41:44] Cameron McEwen: So the tech body was just talking about the process of learning that was going on and that sort of emerged

[1:41:59] Cameron McEwen: into self-consciousness.

[1:42:03] Cameron McEwen: The crime,

[1:42:04] Cameron McEwen: as you call it,

[1:42:06] Cameron McEwen: was an integral part of that.

[1:42:10] Cameron McEwen: It was wrong about what was achievable,

[1:42:13] Cameron McEwen: but the drive towards that achievement was what led into the electric future.

[1:42:24] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:42:24] Bob Dobbs: it seems that the cliché with the 19th century was that people wouldn't talk about politics and religion because they got too argumentative,

[1:42:32] Bob Dobbs: opinionated,

[1:42:32] Bob Dobbs: and came to blows over it.

[1:42:35] Bob Dobbs: As you get into the kind of...

[1:42:39] Bob Dobbs: Huge passivity in the electric age.

[1:42:42] Bob Dobbs: People allow the indecision to be present in the discussion or in the argument,

[1:42:50] Bob Dobbs: and then so there's room for self-correction.

[1:42:53] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if you could say there was self-correction allowed in the

[1:42:56] Bob Dobbs: 19th century under pure print conditions.

[1:43:00] Bob Dobbs: At least people didn't like that.

[1:43:02] Bob Dobbs: They lost face.

[1:43:03] Bob Dobbs: So when I first read that

[1:43:06] Bob Dobbs: 60 years ago or so,

[1:43:09] Bob Dobbs: That McLuhan was allowing self-correction,

[1:43:12] Bob Dobbs: it struck me,

[1:43:12] Bob Dobbs: well,

[1:43:12] Bob Dobbs: that's new.

[1:43:13] Bob Dobbs: See,

[1:43:15] Bob Dobbs: because I was coming out of the Gutenberg era,

[1:43:17] Bob Dobbs: and I was used to,

[1:43:18] Bob Dobbs: no,

[1:43:19] Bob Dobbs: no,

[1:43:19] Bob Dobbs: you don't allow self-correction or something.

[1:43:23] Bob Dobbs: So that struck me as an interesting new twist that his salon was doing.

[1:43:28] Bob Dobbs: That is not,

[1:43:29] Bob Dobbs: that's such a simple insight or simple effect way back there.

[1:43:35] Bob Dobbs: We've done,

[1:43:35] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:43:36] Bob Dobbs: 200,000 years since then.

[1:43:40] Bob Dobbs: So that's what I just have to say about that.

[1:43:42] Bob Dobbs: So here we come.

[1:43:44] Bob Dobbs: What?

[1:43:45] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:43:46] Cameron McEwen: just note that the rise of industry and the rise of New Science with electricity and magnetism,

[1:44:02] Cameron McEwen: these movements were very conscious of self-correction of what had gone before.

[1:44:08] Cameron McEwen: So the univocality of these movements was in where they were trying to get.

[1:44:17] Cameron McEwen: They thought that the self-correction would lead to something that was transparent and stable.

[1:44:26] Cameron McEwen: And what they came to find out was that self-correction feeds on itself and does not lead to transparency and stability.

[1:44:37] Cameron McEwen: leads

[1:44:38] Cameron McEwen: to obscurity,

[1:44:40] Cameron McEwen: which is sort of what we're talking about here.

[1:44:43] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:44:43] Bob Dobbs: so self-correction became...

[1:44:46] Bob Dobbs: What is that line?

[1:44:47] Bob Dobbs: Not what it used to be.

[1:44:49] Bob Dobbs: Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.

[1:44:50] Bob Dobbs: Self-correction ain't what it used to be.

[1:44:53] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[1:44:54] Bob Dobbs: Is what we're into today.

[1:44:55] Cameron McEwen: Good line.

[1:44:56] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:44:56] Cameron McEwen: good line.

[1:44:58] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:44:58] Bob Dobbs: so we're coming up to the end here.

[1:45:01] Bob Dobbs: Let's see.

[1:45:01] Bob Dobbs: I was always feeding itself off the power that blew itself was always there.

[1:45:10] Bob Dobbs: Starting from wrong.

[1:45:11] Bob Dobbs: Starting from wrong.

[1:45:14] Bob Dobbs: Earth of trust.

[1:45:16] Bob Dobbs: And the digital body is getting a pan shot to show how it's all set up.

[1:45:22] Bob Dobbs: So the digital body outdoes what they're trying to use the Android Meme to present in a state.

[1:45:29] Bob Dobbs: How does it?

[1:45:30] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:45:30] Bob Dobbs: and it can make,

[1:45:33] Bob Dobbs: and here's a perfect example.

[1:45:34] Bob Dobbs: It can move so seamless that there's no way in hell Donald J.

[1:45:40] Bob Dobbs: Trump is ever going to be elected.

[1:45:42] Bob Dobbs: It's it.

[1:45:43] Bob Dobbs: president of the United States of America.

[1:45:45] Bob Dobbs: Matter of fact,

[1:45:46] Bob Dobbs: he was never truly elected to be president of the United States of America.

[1:45:52] Bob Dobbs: So we need to rewrite.

[1:45:53] Bob Dobbs: We need to redo.

[1:45:54] Bob Dobbs: Undo 45.

[1:45:56] Bob Dobbs: Undo 45.

[1:45:57] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[1:45:58] Bob Dobbs: here we go.

[1:45:58] Bob Dobbs: They're setting a stage.

[1:45:59] Bob Dobbs: Now somebody,

[1:46:00] Bob Dobbs: now they're not smart.

[1:46:02] Bob Dobbs: The holograph told somebody through numbers that were created through the digitized body.

[1:46:12] Bob Dobbs: You're in trouble.

[1:46:14] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:46:14] Bob Dobbs: Joe Biden,

[1:46:15] Bob Dobbs: here's the words that you should say.

[1:46:17] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:46:17] Bob Dobbs: folks,

[1:46:18] Bob Dobbs: the only way Donald J.

[1:46:20] Bob Dobbs: Trump will ever be elected president is from chicanery.

[1:46:25] Bob Dobbs: I went from

[1:46:27] Bob Dobbs: Vestal Goodman I Wouldn't Take Nothing for My Journey Now all the way into

[1:46:31] Bob Dobbs: You Ain't Seen Nothing Yet with Bachman-Turner Overdrive.

[1:46:35] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:46:35] Bob Dobbs: there's a glitch there.

[1:46:38] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if I was editing.

[1:46:39] Bob Dobbs: I don't think so.

[1:46:41] Bob Dobbs: Maybe there was some...

[1:46:42] Bob Dobbs: stumbled words and i delete them but so he's saying trump is a product of chicanery says biden and then he he jumps to two songs that's so goodman the gospel or something about uh i'm not taking anything on my journey and

[1:47:01] Bob Dobbs: the bachman turner cliche um what is it taking care of business or what was it forget you ain't seen nothing yet yeah you ain't seen nothing yet

[1:47:11] Bob Dobbs: Now what's remarkable as I'm listening to this last bit,

[1:47:15] Bob Dobbs: this book is about Trump.

[1:47:17] Bob Dobbs: Fucking this section of Iron ends with the Trump point.

[1:47:20] Bob Dobbs: How perfect.

[1:47:22] Bob Dobbs: I mean this section with the tech body.

[1:47:24] Bob Dobbs: He goes into the Trump.

[1:47:26] Bob Dobbs: He goes to the issue of today.

[1:47:27] Bob Dobbs: Take Today,

[1:47:28] Bob Dobbs: the Biden-Trump problem.

[1:47:30] Bob Dobbs: And then he quotes two songs.

[1:47:34] Bob Dobbs: So it's an incomplete ending or it's a really good ending but...

[1:47:40] Bob Dobbs: Just aesthetically,

[1:47:41] Bob Dobbs: we haven't got any words.

[1:47:43] Bob Dobbs: More to be discussed,

[1:47:44] Bob Dobbs: which is then we do more.

[1:47:47] Bob Dobbs: So I just want to replay that last bit,

[1:47:49] Bob Dobbs: and with that in mind,

[1:47:51] Bob Dobbs: how beautiful it is that he ended with Trump,

[1:47:54] Bob Dobbs: okay?

[1:47:55] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:47:56] Cameron McEwen: let me just ask about this term,

[1:47:59] Cameron McEwen: the digital body.

[1:48:00] Cameron McEwen: Is that being used as a synonym for the tech body?

[1:48:05] Bob Dobbs: It has to be,

[1:48:06] Bob Dobbs: because he says it...

[1:48:07] Bob Dobbs: It captures the Android meme.

[1:48:08] Bob Dobbs: Is there something where the Android meme is dispensed with as the content,

[1:48:11] Bob Dobbs: I think?

[1:48:12] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:48:12] Bob Dobbs: It's his new term.

[1:48:14] Bob Dobbs: It can't be the chip body.

[1:48:15] Bob Dobbs: That's part of the four bodies of the Android meme.

[1:48:18] Bob Dobbs: And the tech body is something outside of that.

[1:48:20] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:48:21] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[1:48:21] Bob Dobbs: he changed the word at the last minute because he named the tech body.

[1:48:26] Bob Dobbs: Now he's saying the digital body.

[1:48:28] Bob Dobbs: So we'd have to then see how that was used in subsequent interviews.

[1:48:33] Bob Dobbs: But I'm just going to go back a bit here.

[1:48:35] Bob Dobbs: Get this conclusion to gain more solid.

[1:48:37] Bob Dobbs: We're truly elected to be president of the United States of America.

[1:48:42] Bob Dobbs: So we need to rewrite.

[1:48:43] Bob Dobbs: We need to redo.

[1:48:44] Bob Dobbs: Undo 45.

[1:48:46] Bob Dobbs: Undo 45.

[1:48:47] Bob Dobbs: Here we go.

[1:48:48] Bob Dobbs: They're setting a stage.

[1:48:49] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:48:49] Bob Dobbs: they're not smart.

[1:48:52] Bob Dobbs: The holograph told somebody through numbers that were created through the digitized body,

[1:49:03] Bob Dobbs: you're in trouble.

[1:49:04] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:49:04] Bob Dobbs: Joe Biden,

[1:49:05] Bob Dobbs: here's the words that you should say.

[1:49:07] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:49:07] Bob Dobbs: folks,

[1:49:08] Bob Dobbs: the only way Donald J.

[1:49:10] Bob Dobbs: Trump will ever be elected president is from chicanery.

[1:49:15] Bob Dobbs: I went from

[1:49:17] Bob Dobbs: Vestal Goodman,

[1:49:18] Bob Dobbs: I wouldn't take nothing from my journey now,

[1:49:20] Bob Dobbs: all the way into you ain't seen nothing yet with Bachman-Turner Overdrive.

[1:49:25] Bob Dobbs: So you wouldn't take nothing because nothing's going to help you with the fact that you ain't seen nothing yet.

[1:49:31] Bob Dobbs: So we're just beginning here.

[1:49:35] Bob Dobbs: With the unfolding of tech body craziness,

[1:49:38] Bob Dobbs: which this is 2019,

[1:49:40] Bob Dobbs: here we are four years later,

[1:49:42] Bob Dobbs: we have gotten...

[1:49:44] Bob Dobbs: An intensity of I ain't taken nothing in my journey and I ain't seen nothing yet.

[1:49:49] Bob Dobbs: That's what everybody knows is coming.

[1:49:52] Bob Dobbs: So it's a great experiential feeling being expressed by the tech body.

[1:50:00] Bob Dobbs: He's lost his knowing articulation of left hemisphere certainty and now he's just emoting and reflecting Biden yelling about Trump.

[1:50:13] Bob Dobbs: I think that's pretty neat.

[1:50:14] Bob Dobbs: Pretty neat ending.

[1:50:17] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:50:17] Bob Dobbs: so there we are with that.

[1:50:19] Bob Dobbs: Now we've got to go into the text.

[1:50:22] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:50:23] Bob Dobbs: so that went up to 186.

[1:50:29] Bob Dobbs: And then I say,

[1:50:31] Bob Dobbs: at the bottom of this transcript,

[1:50:35] Bob Dobbs: I have two articles.

[1:50:39] Bob Dobbs: The New Republic talks about Trump as a...

[1:50:43] Bob Dobbs: Post-literate American presidency.

[1:50:46] Bob Dobbs: If I click on it,

[1:50:47] Bob Dobbs: does it take me anywhere?

[1:50:49] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:50:49] Bob Dobbs: it actually takes me to the article.

[1:50:51] Bob Dobbs: So you can read the article,

[1:50:53] Bob Dobbs: The New Republic.

[1:50:56] Bob Dobbs: And this is in,

[1:50:59] Bob Dobbs: it must be in 2019 because it says,

[1:51:02] Bob Dobbs: How will you feel if Donald Trump becomes president again?

[1:51:06] Bob Dobbs: And it has a quote from Liz Cheney.

[1:51:08] Bob Dobbs: The United States is sleepwalking into dictatorship.

[1:51:12] Bob Dobbs: And it says Donald Trump has already apparently locked up the Republican nomination.

[1:51:18] Bob Dobbs: Here it is,

[1:51:18] Bob Dobbs: four years later,

[1:51:19] Bob Dobbs: saying the same thing.

[1:51:21] Bob Dobbs: And,

[1:51:22] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[1:51:22] Bob Dobbs: it's called,

[1:51:23] Bob Dobbs: Trump is truly the first president and a harbinger of the decline in intelligence to come in U.S.

[1:51:29] Bob Dobbs: politics.

[1:51:30] Bob Dobbs: That's September 23,

[1:51:32] Bob Dobbs: 2017.

[1:51:34] Bob Dobbs: To me,

[1:51:34] Bob Dobbs: that is normal dumbness.

[1:51:36] Bob Dobbs: No fucking clue.

[1:51:37] Bob Dobbs: And what he's writing,

[1:51:39] Bob Dobbs: my essay is trying to correct.

[1:51:42] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:51:42] Cameron McEwen: so it's impossible for American politics to become dumbed out.

[1:51:50] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:51:52] Cameron McEwen: There is no doubt.

[1:51:53] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:51:54] Bob Dobbs: It's impossible for someone to write journalistically any intelligent pattern.

[1:51:58] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:52:02] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:52:02] Cameron McEwen: There are no journalists anymore.

[1:52:04] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:52:04] Bob Dobbs: So I'm not a journalist,

[1:52:05] Bob Dobbs: so I'm free to make up a very good pattern.

[1:52:09] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:52:10] Bob Dobbs: so.

[1:52:10] Bob Dobbs: I have to read,

[1:52:11] Bob Dobbs: I don't think I ever read that article.

[1:52:13] Bob Dobbs: I'm going to read that,

[1:52:15] Bob Dobbs: and then the second,

[1:52:16] Bob Dobbs: oh shit,

[1:52:16] Bob Dobbs: I clicked it off.

[1:52:19] Bob Dobbs: I've got to go back a second.

[1:52:25] Bob Dobbs: It just seemed to be a cliche thing.

[1:52:27] Bob Dobbs: I just used a sample,

[1:52:28] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:52:29] Bob Dobbs: rear view mirror,

[1:52:31] Bob Dobbs: not a perceptive article.

[1:52:35] Bob Dobbs: Now that I've mastered the tech body,

[1:52:37] Bob Dobbs: I'm going to go back and see.

[1:52:38] Bob Dobbs: what the tech body was trying to show me with that truck and journalist.

[1:52:42] Bob Dobbs: So we get down to the second one is something called McLuhan's window.

[1:52:47] Bob Dobbs: Trump's 2016 victory,

[1:52:49] Bob Dobbs: no surprise for McLuhanite.

[1:52:52] Bob Dobbs: I click on that and it doesn't go anywhere.

[1:52:55] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:52:57] Bob Dobbs: I don't know what that article is,

[1:52:59] Bob Dobbs: but it could have been that guy.

[1:53:02] Cameron McEwen: I think it was.

[1:53:04] Cameron McEwen: We talked about him before.

[1:53:06] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:53:06] Bob Dobbs: the guy in Montreal who was making this.

[1:53:08] Bob Dobbs: satirical presentation of McLuhan.

[1:53:13] Cameron McEwen: I don't know about that.

[1:53:14] Cameron McEwen: It seemed to me that the guy was,

[1:53:17] Cameron McEwen: my memory is that this was a guy in Toronto,

[1:53:21] Cameron McEwen: and he turned out some fairly lengthy posts online that were pretty good.

[1:53:33] Cameron McEwen: It didn't go as far as we would go,

[1:53:37] Cameron McEwen: but um

[1:53:38] Cameron McEwen: represented a sort of a new stage of people reading McLuhan.

[1:53:46] Cameron McEwen: But

[1:53:50] Cameron McEwen: I don't know if it was you or me or who it was tried to get in touch with him and wasn't able to.

[1:53:55] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:53:58] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:53:58] Bob Dobbs: I think we're talking about the same guy.

[1:54:01] Bob Dobbs: He was making flippant little blogs and pretending McLuhan was...

[1:54:07] Bob Dobbs: reading all that everybody was saying about him and mocking it.

[1:54:11] Bob Dobbs: Do you remember that one?

[1:54:12] Cameron McEwen: That's not my memory,

[1:54:16] Cameron McEwen: no,

[1:54:16] Cameron McEwen: but you could well be right.

[1:54:19] Cameron McEwen: I remember there was a lot of stuff got turned out and I didn't read it all.

[1:54:25] Bob Dobbs: Right,

[1:54:25] Bob Dobbs: and the one I'm thinking of might have been 2011 in the centenary.

[1:54:30] Bob Dobbs: I remember Andrew was quoting him in his scriptorium.

[1:54:34] Bob Dobbs: Do you remember?

[1:54:35] Bob Dobbs: His beginning of his scene with the scriptorium book?

[1:54:40] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:54:40] Cameron McEwen: sure.

[1:54:41] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:54:41] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:54:41] Cameron McEwen: I think that was in 2011.

[1:54:44] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:54:44] Bob Dobbs: during the centenary.

[1:54:45] Bob Dobbs: So anyways,

[1:54:47] Bob Dobbs: I've got here,

[1:54:47] Bob Dobbs: by any,

[1:54:48] Bob Dobbs: I'm saying...

[1:54:50] Bob Dobbs: So the tech body says,

[1:54:51] Bob Dobbs: here we go.

[1:54:52] Bob Dobbs: They're setting a stage.

[1:54:53] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:54:54] Bob Dobbs: they're not smart.

[1:54:56] Bob Dobbs: Pretty blatant or pretty direct.

[1:55:02] Bob Dobbs: Tech body is sort of saying,

[1:55:03] Bob Dobbs: they're not smart,

[1:55:04] Bob Dobbs: Bob.

[1:55:05] Bob Dobbs: Anyways,

[1:55:05] Bob Dobbs: the holograph told somebody through numbers that were created through the digital body,

[1:55:11] Bob Dobbs: quote,

[1:55:11] Bob Dobbs: you're in trouble.

[1:55:12] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:55:12] Bob Dobbs: Joe Biden,

[1:55:13] Bob Dobbs: here are the words that you should say.

[1:55:15] Bob Dobbs: Quote,

[1:55:16] Bob Dobbs: OK,

[1:55:16] Bob Dobbs: folks,

[1:55:16] Bob Dobbs: the only way Donald J.

[1:55:17] Bob Dobbs: Trump could ever be elected president is from chicanery.

[1:55:20] Bob Dobbs: And then it has,

[1:55:25] Bob Dobbs: if the punctuation is correct,

[1:55:28] Bob Dobbs: the tech body continues.

[1:55:30] Bob Dobbs: It says

[1:55:31] Bob Dobbs: Biden is saying the only way,

[1:55:33] Bob Dobbs: he tells Biden to say this,

[1:55:34] Bob Dobbs: the only way Donald J.

[1:55:35] Bob Dobbs: Trump could ever be elected president is from chicanery.

[1:55:37] Bob Dobbs: By any event,

[1:55:39] Bob Dobbs: from Vestal Goodman I wouldn't take nothing for my journey now,

[1:55:42] Bob Dobbs: all the way into.

[1:55:43] Bob Dobbs: You ain't seen nothing yet with Bachman-Turner Overdrive.

[1:55:46] Bob Dobbs: That is an incomplete sentence.

[1:55:49] Bob Dobbs: It's oral.

[1:55:50] Bob Dobbs: It's not grammatically a complete thing.

[1:55:51] Bob Dobbs: It just says he ain't going to be elected.

[1:55:54] Bob Dobbs: If he does,

[1:55:55] Bob Dobbs: it's chicanery.

[1:55:56] Bob Dobbs: And I don't know if he's talking about that's what happened in 2016 or he's predicting what's going to happen in

[1:56:02] Bob Dobbs: 2020. But anyway,

[1:56:05] Bob Dobbs: the process is I'm going from I wouldn't take nothing for my journey now all the way into he ain't seen nothing yet.

[1:56:11] Bob Dobbs: So.

[1:56:12] Bob Dobbs: It's a Zen puzzle at the end.

[1:56:14] Bob Dobbs: I don't know what the technology is getting at there.

[1:56:18] Bob Dobbs: So we finish that,

[1:56:20] Bob Dobbs: and then I say,

[1:56:23] Bob Dobbs: memorize the two sentences in red below.

[1:56:29] Bob Dobbs: Have them ready for all conversations.

[1:56:31] Bob Dobbs: Here's my summation of what to do.

[1:56:34] Bob Dobbs: Here's Bob's answers.

[1:56:36] Bob Dobbs: Memorize the two sentences in red below.

[1:56:38] Bob Dobbs: Have them ready for all conversations about...

[1:56:41] Bob Dobbs: Say it's what McLuhan discovered.

[1:56:43] Bob Dobbs: Make it more famous than,

[1:56:45] Bob Dobbs: quote,

[1:56:45] Bob Dobbs: the medium is the message.

[1:56:47] Bob Dobbs: So what do I quote?

[1:56:49] Bob Dobbs: The red part is page 211.

[1:56:54] Bob Dobbs: Take Today.

[1:56:56] Bob Dobbs: And I always like this quote.

[1:56:58] Bob Dobbs: And McLuhan's talking,

[1:56:59] Bob Dobbs: or Barry Nevitt is talking about the novel Catch-22.

[1:57:04] Bob Dobbs: It's just like I got to flip down there.

[1:57:06] Bob Dobbs: It's bouncing back and forth.

[1:57:10] Bob Dobbs: So here's his quote,

[1:57:10] Bob Dobbs: page 211,

[1:57:11] Bob Dobbs: 1972.

[1:57:13] Bob Dobbs: In catch 22,

[1:57:15] Bob Dobbs: the figure of the black market and the ground of war merge into a monster presided over by the syndicate.

[1:57:22] Bob Dobbs: When war and market merge,

[1:57:24] Bob Dobbs: all money transactions begin to drip blood.

[1:57:28] Bob Dobbs: I think that's a good statement of the content of the global theater.

[1:57:32] Bob Dobbs: And,

[1:57:32] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:57:32] Bob Dobbs: we're seeing it now.

[1:57:34] Bob Dobbs: We've seen the last 30 years.

[1:57:35] Bob Dobbs: If any money's to be made or to start being circulated,

[1:57:39] Bob Dobbs: out of a dump or a slowdown,

[1:57:45] Bob Dobbs: you've got to get a war going,

[1:57:46] Bob Dobbs: a little war.

[1:57:48] Bob Dobbs: So the figure of the black market and the ground of war merge into a monster presided over by the syndicate,

[1:57:53] Bob Dobbs: that's the cabal,

[1:57:54] Bob Dobbs: the mafia,

[1:57:55] Bob Dobbs: whatever gang took over,

[1:57:57] Bob Dobbs: hijacks the planet.

[1:57:58] Bob Dobbs: And when war and market merge,

[1:58:00] Bob Dobbs: all money transactions begin to drip blood.

[1:58:02] Bob Dobbs: There's always going to be some fucking murders.

[1:58:04] Bob Dobbs: That is a massive effect that summarizes the post-war.

[1:58:09] Cameron McEwen: 60s utopian vision people thought McLuhan was presenting this was what he was telling was coming not some fucking happy pastoral global thing global and it was perfect it was perfect pitch for where we're at that's what i'm saying almost

[1:58:25] Cameron McEwen: exactly 50 years ago yeah and yet the what is unfolding right now in the world is exactly this that's right

[1:58:35] Bob Dobbs: And there were prefigurings of all the different little wars over the last 30 years.

[1:58:40] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:58:41] Bob Dobbs: I'm saying forget a big agenda here is I'm going to use McLuhan to tell you what's going on today and show you.

[1:58:49] Bob Dobbs: He predicted today and nothing to do with what I call the Madison Avenue statements that,

[1:58:55] Bob Dobbs: oh,

[1:58:55] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan,

[1:58:55] Bob Dobbs: he said it was a Global Village.

[1:58:57] Bob Dobbs: He said books are obsolete and the users,

[1:59:00] Bob Dobbs: the content and,

[1:59:01] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:59:01] Bob Dobbs: pass these.

[1:59:04] Bob Dobbs: platitudinous things,

[1:59:05] Bob Dobbs: and yet that's not where the insights of what McLuhan is about.

[1:59:11] Bob Dobbs: It is this quote.

[1:59:13] Bob Dobbs: So if I'm a journalist and I write about McLuhan,

[1:59:16] Bob Dobbs: there's a lot of these articles,

[1:59:17] Bob Dobbs: people trying to retrieve McLuhan or think McLuhan had something sensible with as medium as the message.

[1:59:21] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:59:22] Bob Dobbs: it's nowhere near.

[1:59:23] Bob Dobbs: And my simple punchline is,

[1:59:25] Bob Dobbs: use this fucking quote from now on as your cliché about what McLuhan said.

[1:59:29] Bob Dobbs: And like you just perceived,

[1:59:31] Bob Dobbs: it's fucking accurate.

[1:59:34] Cameron McEwen: Sure.

[1:59:35] Cameron McEwen: And just from a literary point of view,

[1:59:39] Cameron McEwen: notice how this relates to the whole second half of the interview with

[1:59:45] Cameron McEwen: Tech Body, which is largely about power.

[1:59:48] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:59:49] Cameron McEwen: And

[1:59:52] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan's quote is not about the,

[1:59:57] Cameron McEwen: or at least the questions that emerge from McLuhan's quote.

[2:00:04] Cameron McEwen: do not have to do with the exercise of power by this nation or that nation or something like that.

[2:00:12] Cameron McEwen: It has to do with what power is going on in the world that this should be the case.

[2:00:20] Cameron McEwen: And I guess you could say that,

[2:00:23] Cameron McEwen: well,

[2:00:24] Cameron McEwen: a reformulation of that question is,

[2:00:28] Cameron McEwen: what is the tech body?

[2:00:30] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:00:31] Bob Dobbs: And,

[2:00:32] Bob Dobbs: and,

[2:00:32] Bob Dobbs: um...

[2:00:32] Bob Dobbs: And,

[2:00:33] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[2:00:33] Bob Dobbs: I was saying,

[2:00:35] Bob Dobbs: the tech body was saying,

[2:00:36] Bob Dobbs: we are power.

[2:00:37] Bob Dobbs: And then what is that?

[2:00:39] Bob Dobbs: So I remember that I met Mark Stahlman in 98,

[2:00:42] Bob Dobbs: and he talked about coming to Toronto.

[2:00:44] Bob Dobbs: He was getting more and more interested in McLuhan in his retirement from being a Wall Street guy,

[2:00:51] Bob Dobbs: writing proposals about what the tech buddies in the office should promote as brokers.

[2:00:59] Bob Dobbs: uh,

[2:01:02] Bob Dobbs: He came to Toronto,

[2:01:03] Bob Dobbs: I think he met Wayne Constantineau,

[2:01:05] Bob Dobbs: and he said,

[2:01:06] Bob Dobbs: this is what he told me four years later,

[2:01:08] Bob Dobbs: where is a,

[2:01:09] Bob Dobbs: and remember,

[2:01:10] Bob Dobbs: Mark is a LaRouche,

[2:01:12] Bob Dobbs: interested in power,

[2:01:14] Bob Dobbs: the Macbeth part of the Tiny Note,

[2:01:17] Bob Dobbs: the LaRouche quadrant,

[2:01:19] Bob Dobbs: and so he said,

[2:01:20] Bob Dobbs: where did McLuhan write about power?

[2:01:23] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[2:01:23] Bob Dobbs: he didn't know the 70s McLuhan,

[2:01:25] Bob Dobbs: the Take Today or anything.

[2:01:27] Bob Dobbs: He only knew the general platitudes of mid-60s

[2:01:30] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan.

[2:01:31] Bob Dobbs: what I call Madison Avenue McLuhan.

[2:01:33] Bob Dobbs: And Wayne said correctly,

[2:01:35] Bob Dobbs: you want to read Take Today.

[2:01:37] Bob Dobbs: So Mark went around trying to get a copy of Take Today.

[2:01:40] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if he ever got one.

[2:01:43] Bob Dobbs: He may not have,

[2:01:44] Bob Dobbs: but when he met me,

[2:01:46] Bob Dobbs: I laid it all out for him about Tech Body.

[2:01:48] Bob Dobbs: Take Today,

[2:01:48] Bob Dobbs: I was the only guy around who was an expert on that book.

[2:01:52] Bob Dobbs: And so he was looking for power,

[2:01:57] Bob Dobbs: Wayne intuited,

[2:01:59] Bob Dobbs: that must be what Take Today is about.

[2:02:01] Bob Dobbs: And he was right.

[2:02:04] Bob Dobbs: And so when I met Mark...

[2:02:07] Bob Dobbs: Four years later,

[2:02:08] Bob Dobbs: we did a lot of talking about his LaRouche experience,

[2:02:10] Bob Dobbs: which I knew a lot about,

[2:02:12] Bob Dobbs: having been involved with the LaRouche cult as an observer and hanging out with them and watching them.

[2:02:20] Bob Dobbs: Mark was a member and an employee of it.

[2:02:24] Bob Dobbs: So it was interesting.

[2:02:26] Bob Dobbs: People were interested in power.

[2:02:30] Bob Dobbs: In the 70s,

[2:02:31] Bob Dobbs: it was manifested in the beginning of investigation of the CIA and a lot of that by the Church Committee.

[2:02:38] Bob Dobbs: And then the House Select Committee in 78-79,

[2:02:40] Bob Dobbs: which actually concluded there was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy,

[2:02:44] Bob Dobbs: but news media doesn't acknowledge that.

[2:02:46] Bob Dobbs: They're still back at the Warren Commission.

[2:02:48] Bob Dobbs: But all through the end,

[2:02:50] Bob Dobbs: Reagan brought in a new kind of power.

[2:02:52] Bob Dobbs: And then

[2:02:53] Bob Dobbs: Bush, CIA,

[2:02:55] Bob Dobbs: the dynamic of what is power,

[2:02:58] Bob Dobbs: what do humans do to try to bring order in some way anthropomorphically to the global theater?

[2:03:07] Bob Dobbs: And so those themes are riddled all the way through Take Today,

[2:03:10] Bob Dobbs: a big encyclopedic book with lots of stuff in it.

[2:03:14] Bob Dobbs: And really,

[2:03:15] Bob Dobbs: it was a great guide through the 70s into the

[2:03:18] Bob Dobbs: 90s.

[2:03:23] Bob Dobbs: Mark was looking for that.

[2:03:25] Bob Dobbs: And

[2:03:28] Bob Dobbs: I don't think there was anybody I know of that came to McLuhan's scene,

[2:03:33] Bob Dobbs: and there were rarely many people coming to it.

[2:03:37] Bob Dobbs: but would come and say,

[2:03:38] Bob Dobbs: I want to know about power.

[2:03:40] Bob Dobbs: So you're perfectly right.

[2:03:41] Bob Dobbs: It's a great way to end this.

[2:03:43] Bob Dobbs: It's all about power,

[2:03:44] Bob Dobbs: and the tech body is the latest manifestation of it.

[2:03:47] Bob Dobbs: And this quote is dealing with power.

[2:03:50] Bob Dobbs: And it's a sign of my expertise that I figured out the punchline is this quote,

[2:03:56] Bob Dobbs: and you agree with me.

[2:03:57] Bob Dobbs: I picked the right quote.

[2:04:01] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:04:03] Bob Dobbs: In Catch-22,

[2:04:04] Bob Dobbs: the novel.

[2:04:05] Bob Dobbs: Another reason I put 22 on the number for the McLuhan Quadrant in the Tiny Note chart.

[2:04:10] Bob Dobbs: In Catch-22,

[2:04:11] Bob Dobbs: the figure is italicized of the black market.

[2:04:15] Bob Dobbs: And the ground,

[2:04:16] Bob Dobbs: italicized of war,

[2:04:18] Bob Dobbs: merged into a monster presided over by the syndicate.

[2:04:20] Bob Dobbs: 72 is when the Godfather series started.

[2:04:25] Bob Dobbs: And so that was a metaphor of what people thought was power,

[2:04:29] Bob Dobbs: you know?

[2:04:30] Bob Dobbs: And it was just chemical body power.

[2:04:33] Bob Dobbs: running the cities while the global power was the the economy that McLuhan describes in 1974 in the New York Times op-ed the tactile financial weirdness

[2:04:49] Bob Dobbs: of the mixture of the four worlds but remember that when

[2:04:54] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan was saying at the same time that the world was going to reverse

[2:05:02] Cameron McEwen: into a kind of religiosity through this.

[2:05:08] Cameron McEwen: And that's because the deepest question that can be asked about this sort of stuff is,

[2:05:14] Cameron McEwen: when the world goes so wonky,

[2:05:21] Cameron McEwen: as this quote indicates,

[2:05:24] Cameron McEwen: what is going on?

[2:05:26] Cameron McEwen: Is the world just...

[2:05:31] Bob Dobbs: you know a piece of shit or or is there another way uh to see uh what's going on yeah because the world when the market the warren market merge all money transactions begin or you know seem to begin to drip blood so

[2:05:51] Bob Dobbs: you

[2:05:52] Bob Dobbs: What is the main complaint about the entertainment industry the last 30 years?

[2:05:55] Bob Dobbs: It just got more and more violent.

[2:05:57] Bob Dobbs: That was the imagery in the news,

[2:05:58] Bob Dobbs: in the TV shows,

[2:05:59] Bob Dobbs: in the movies,

[2:06:00] Bob Dobbs: everywhere,

[2:06:00] Bob Dobbs: in the music,

[2:06:01] Bob Dobbs: in the rap and all that fucking violence.

[2:06:04] Bob Dobbs: Murder all over the place.

[2:06:06] Bob Dobbs: Begin to drip blood.

[2:06:07] Bob Dobbs: He covered it all with that statement there.

[2:06:10] Bob Dobbs: He saw that come.

[2:06:12] Bob Dobbs: All money transactions begin to drip blood.

[2:06:15] Bob Dobbs: No matter what you do,

[2:06:17] Bob Dobbs: how...

[2:06:19] Bob Dobbs: how

[2:06:20] Bob Dobbs: Christian you try to be,

[2:06:21] Bob Dobbs: or how moral or ethical.

[2:06:22] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan's saying there are no ethics possible.

[2:06:24] Bob Dobbs: And also,

[2:06:25] Bob Dobbs: in that Burroughs 1964 article,

[2:06:27] Bob Dobbs: he said,

[2:06:28] Bob Dobbs: there's no decency and there's no obscenity.

[2:06:31] Bob Dobbs: And the tech body begins by saying,

[2:06:34] Bob Dobbs: there's no decency.

[2:06:35] Bob Dobbs: He brings up that part of it.

[2:06:38] Bob Dobbs: at the beginning.

[2:06:38] Cameron McEwen: So,

[2:06:39] Cameron McEwen: and this all goes back to Lewis because it's not,

[2:06:49] Cameron McEwen: when it is said there is no decency,

[2:06:52] Cameron McEwen: there is no morality,

[2:06:54] Cameron McEwen: there are no values.

[2:06:55] Cameron McEwen: And there's no obscenity.

[2:06:58] Cameron McEwen: Yes,

[2:06:58] Cameron McEwen: and no obscenity.

[2:06:59] Cameron McEwen: When these things are said,

[2:07:02] Cameron McEwen: it is not meant that these things do not exist as

[2:07:07] Cameron McEwen: phenomena.

[2:07:08] Cameron McEwen: No,

[2:07:09] Cameron McEwen: they do exist as phenomena,

[2:07:11] Cameron McEwen: but they don't exist absolutely.

[2:07:14] Cameron McEwen: That is to say,

[2:07:15] Cameron McEwen: these things are figures.

[2:07:17] Cameron McEwen: They're figures of a deeper ground.

[2:07:19] Bob Dobbs: They're not what they used to be,

[2:07:21] Bob Dobbs: because there's a deeper violence.

[2:07:24] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[2:07:25] Cameron McEwen: But what they are manifestations of in the last analysis is power,

[2:07:31] Cameron McEwen: but we don't know what power is.

[2:07:34] Cameron McEwen: Um,

[2:07:37] Cameron McEwen: I guess one way of understanding this conversation with the tech body is to say,

[2:07:47] Cameron McEwen: can we interrogate or dialogue with power so that what power is begins to articulate itself?

[2:07:58] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[2:07:59] Bob Dobbs: I remember one night in a seminar,

[2:08:02] Bob Dobbs: and I'm glad I was there to catch these one-time sentences.

[2:08:06] Bob Dobbs: I caught McLuhan saying to somebody,

[2:08:08] Bob Dobbs: in 1968,

[2:08:10] Bob Dobbs: we did a whole year,

[2:08:11] Bob Dobbs: a whole investigation,

[2:08:13] Bob Dobbs: and he said either wealth or power.

[2:08:15] Bob Dobbs: Right now,

[2:08:16] Bob Dobbs: I can't remember which it was,

[2:08:17] Bob Dobbs: but I'm going with power.

[2:08:19] Bob Dobbs: We investigated what is power for a whole year,

[2:08:22] Bob Dobbs: and we couldn't figure it out.

[2:08:26] Bob Dobbs: That is maybe why we say that McLuhan failed,

[2:08:31] Bob Dobbs: because it really is a tough one to figure out what power is.

[2:08:35] Bob Dobbs: And whether you have power or not,

[2:08:37] Bob Dobbs: what is your power,

[2:08:38] Bob Dobbs: you know?

[2:08:40] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:08:40] Bob Dobbs: Remember McLuhan said that the suppressed blacks,

[2:08:44] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[2:08:44] Bob Dobbs: in the

[2:08:45] Bob Dobbs: 30s and 40s,

[2:08:46] Bob Dobbs: 50s,

[2:08:47] Bob Dobbs: they'd get into a truck in a construction site and drive around with this fucking power.

[2:08:53] Bob Dobbs: That was the cause of black power or,

[2:08:55] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[2:08:56] Bob Dobbs: civil rights,

[2:08:57] Bob Dobbs: is that they put on that machine and started to feel power that the white guy had been doing for 20 years before with the truck.

[2:09:04] Bob Dobbs: I think of that image that McLuhan says,

[2:09:07] Bob Dobbs: the black man in the truck allowed the man to experience power,

[2:09:13] Bob Dobbs: because before that,

[2:09:13] Bob Dobbs: they didn't even have jobs.

[2:09:16] Bob Dobbs: They were isolated,

[2:09:17] Bob Dobbs: so they didn't have that experience of getting in a big truck.

[2:09:20] Bob Dobbs: So that's an interesting point.

[2:09:24] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:09:24] Bob Dobbs: so as archivist of McLuhan,

[2:09:28] Bob Dobbs: I was always at the right point to catch these one-time quotes.

[2:09:32] Bob Dobbs: Another one was...

[2:09:34] Bob Dobbs: He says to his professor,

[2:09:36] Bob Dobbs: you're trying to tell me something.

[2:09:39] Bob Dobbs: You see,

[2:09:39] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan got to the end point.

[2:09:42] Bob Dobbs: He almost could accept the failure of it.

[2:09:47] Bob Dobbs: I think accepting the failure is part of the ecology.

[2:09:52] Bob Dobbs: It's like the way you include the disconnection or you include literate dialectic visual space in your scenario as you move past it.

[2:10:02] Bob Dobbs: You always think that you don't drop it.

[2:10:05] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:10:06] Cameron McEwen: as a Catholic,

[2:10:09] Cameron McEwen: the most catastrophic thing that could happen to the universe has already happened,

[2:10:19] Cameron McEwen: namely the death of God.

[2:10:21] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:10:22] Bob Dobbs: you're saying,

[2:10:23] Bob Dobbs: you as a Catholic see that,

[2:10:24] Bob Dobbs: say that.

[2:10:27] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:10:27] Cameron McEwen: I'm saying that,

[2:10:29] Cameron McEwen: you were saying that

[2:10:30] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan saw and accepted a kind of failure.

[2:10:35] Cameron McEwen: And I'm saying,

[2:10:36] Cameron McEwen: sure,

[2:10:37] Cameron McEwen: as a Catholic,

[2:10:38] Cameron McEwen: he necessarily did.

[2:10:40] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[2:10:40] Bob Dobbs: he is a Catholic?

[2:10:42] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:10:44] Bob Dobbs: So the death of God,

[2:10:47] Bob Dobbs: why would a Catholic believe that happened?

[2:10:52] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[2:10:53] Cameron McEwen: that's what the Christian religion is all about.

[2:10:56] Cameron McEwen: Christ on the cross is the death of God.

[2:11:01] Bob Dobbs: No,

[2:11:01] Bob Dobbs: it isn't.

[2:11:01] Bob Dobbs: The cross is an image of chromosome 14.

[2:11:06] Bob Dobbs: Ha You haven't heard that one

[2:11:08] Bob Dobbs: Well, you have.

[2:11:09] Bob Dobbs: I've said it a few times.

[2:11:10] Bob Dobbs: But how is that?

[2:11:13] Bob Dobbs: So God dies,

[2:11:14] Bob Dobbs: but then it's temporary.

[2:11:18] Bob Dobbs: He comes back.

[2:11:21] Cameron McEwen: Yes,

[2:11:22] Cameron McEwen: so

[2:11:27] Cameron McEwen: I didn't say that for McLuhan as a Catholic,

[2:11:33] Cameron McEwen: the most catastrophic thing that could happen to the universe had happened,

[2:11:37] Cameron McEwen: and therefore he wanted to commit suicide or something.

[2:11:43] Cameron McEwen: No,

[2:11:45] Cameron McEwen: the most catastrophic thing that could happen to the universe had happened.

[2:11:49] Cameron McEwen: But it was not the end.

[2:11:51] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[2:11:52] Bob Dobbs: He couldn't accept it.

[2:11:53] Bob Dobbs: Therefore,

[2:11:54] Cameron McEwen: he could relax.

[2:11:55] Bob Dobbs: He bitterly accepted it.

[2:11:59] Cameron McEwen: But he could,

[2:12:00] Cameron McEwen: because of,

[2:12:02] Cameron McEwen: as he said quite a few times himself,

[2:12:08] Cameron McEwen: the universe was changed through that event.

[2:12:11] Cameron McEwen: And what was changed through that event was that although everything you

[2:12:18] Cameron McEwen: was subject to death and subject to imperfection,

[2:12:26] Cameron McEwen: at the same time that death and imperfection was kind of taken up into the

[2:12:42] Cameron McEwen: celebratory form of things,

[2:12:46] Cameron McEwen: right?

[2:12:47] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan's insight comes out of both the depth into which monstrosity can unfold,

[2:13:04] Cameron McEwen: but also the acceptance and relaxation in that that is possible by seeing that it's you

[2:13:15] Cameron McEwen: those depths aren't the last word.

[2:13:17] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[2:13:18] Bob Dobbs: So

[2:13:19] Bob Dobbs: Barry tells a story.

[2:13:20] Bob Dobbs: He once asked McLuhan,

[2:13:22] Bob Dobbs: when you die and you see you're still conscious after you die,

[2:13:27] Bob Dobbs: what would you do?

[2:13:28] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan says,

[2:13:29] Bob Dobbs: plunge ahead.

[2:13:35] Bob Dobbs: So this is pretty adorable to end on death and what are you going to do about it?

[2:13:41] Bob Dobbs: Good ending.

[2:13:44] Bob Dobbs: I like that.

[2:13:45] Bob Dobbs: I say,

[2:13:49] Bob Dobbs: after we hear from the tech body,

[2:13:51] Bob Dobbs: I say,

[2:13:51] Bob Dobbs: remember this.

[2:13:53] Bob Dobbs: You memorize that fucking quote,

[2:13:55] Bob Dobbs: page 211 of Take Today.

[2:13:57] Bob Dobbs: You have him ready to tell any asshole who brings up McLuhan that they'd have no fucking clue what McLuhan said.

[2:14:04] Bob Dobbs: Here's what he said.

[2:14:05] Bob Dobbs: Here's what he discovered.

[2:14:06] Bob Dobbs: And then you say it.

[2:14:07] Bob Dobbs: We're going to make it.

[2:14:08] Bob Dobbs: Our job is to make it more famous than the medium is the message.

[2:14:11] Bob Dobbs: So,

[2:14:12] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[2:14:12] Bob Dobbs: in 10 years.

[2:14:13] Bob Dobbs: Journalists say,

[2:14:14] Bob Dobbs: well,

[2:14:15] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan was a great Canadian

[2:14:17] Bob Dobbs: 60s philosopher who said,

[2:14:19] Bob Dobbs: in Catch-22,

[2:14:20] Bob Dobbs: the figure of the black market and the ground of war merge into a monster presided over by the syndicate.

[2:14:26] Bob Dobbs: When war and market merge,

[2:14:27] Bob Dobbs: and that's italicized too,

[2:14:29] Bob Dobbs: all money transactions begin to drip blood.

[2:14:33] Bob Dobbs: That's italicized like the word figure and ground.

[2:14:35] Bob Dobbs: Why is that italicized?

[2:14:39] Cameron McEwen: Figure and ground were almost always italicized by him.

[2:14:43] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:14:44] Bob Dobbs: but then this whole sentence,

[2:14:45] Bob Dobbs: the last sentence is italicized.

[2:14:49] Cameron McEwen: That's right,

[2:14:49] Cameron McEwen: but I thought you were saying why we're figure and ground italicized.

[2:14:53] Bob Dobbs: No,

[2:14:53] Bob Dobbs: no,

[2:14:53] Bob Dobbs: I'm saying why is this whole sentence,

[2:14:56] Bob Dobbs: when war and market merge,

[2:14:57] Bob Dobbs: all money transactions begin to drip blood,

[2:14:59] Bob Dobbs: why is that whole sentence italicized?

[2:15:02] Cameron McEwen: Because he thought it was as important as you do.

[2:15:06] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[2:15:07] Bob Dobbs: all right.

[2:15:09] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[2:15:10] Bob Dobbs: I bet you Barry wrote that.

[2:15:15] Cameron McEwen: Hmm.

[2:15:17] Bob Dobbs: Hard to tell.

[2:15:19] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[2:15:19] Bob Dobbs: you know that there is a serialization and simplification of Take Today in a magazine called Modern Office Procedures or something like that.

[2:15:30] Bob Dobbs: You ever seen that?

[2:15:31] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[2:15:32] Cameron McEwen: No,

[2:15:32] Cameron McEwen: I've never seen it,

[2:15:32] Cameron McEwen: but I know of it.

[2:15:34] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:15:34] Bob Dobbs: I have those articles,

[2:15:35] Bob Dobbs: and I'm not Xeroxing them all for you right now anyway.

[2:15:40] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:15:40] Cameron McEwen: maybe someday.

[2:15:42] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:15:42] Bob Dobbs: maybe someday.

[2:15:43] Bob Dobbs: I went to some library or...

[2:15:45] Bob Dobbs: someplace in 78,

[2:15:47] Bob Dobbs: 77,

[2:15:48] Bob Dobbs: found it,

[2:15:49] Bob Dobbs: because I'd seen it in the bibliography,

[2:15:50] Bob Dobbs: and Xeroxed all the issues.

[2:15:52] Bob Dobbs: That took a while.

[2:15:56] Cameron McEwen: But isn't it,

[2:15:56] Cameron McEwen: I thought it was just excerpts from Take Today.

[2:15:59] Cameron McEwen: No,

[2:15:59] Bob Dobbs: it's a rewriting of Take Today.

[2:16:01] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[2:16:02] Cameron McEwen: that's pretty interesting.

[2:16:04] Bob Dobbs: Beg your pardon?

[2:16:05] Cameron McEwen: You're going to have to scan those.

[2:16:11] Cameron McEwen: Maybe we could do a series of readings.

[2:16:14] Cameron McEwen: of those things.

[2:16:16] Bob Dobbs: Maybe.

[2:16:16] Bob Dobbs: Not today.

[2:16:18] Cameron McEwen: No,

[2:16:18] Cameron McEwen: no,

[2:16:18] Cameron McEwen: not yet.

[2:16:19] Cameron McEwen: Of course not.

[2:16:20] Bob Dobbs: But yeah,

[2:16:22] Bob Dobbs: it's a little known,

[2:16:23] Bob Dobbs: little interesting serialization.

[2:16:26] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[2:16:27] Bob Dobbs: when I went down to McLuhan's office in 74 with Cynthia Lozier,

[2:16:35] Bob Dobbs: and we walked in Saturday afternoon,

[2:16:37] Bob Dobbs: it was open,

[2:16:38] Bob Dobbs: we went in,

[2:16:40] Bob Dobbs: and voices were upstairs in his office.

[2:16:42] Bob Dobbs: It turned out to be Barry Nevitt and Marshall McLuhan.

[2:16:46] Bob Dobbs: I've told you this story before.

[2:16:48] Bob Dobbs: I hadn't met Barry.

[2:16:50] Bob Dobbs: They come down.

[2:16:53] Bob Dobbs: Barry,

[2:16:55] Bob Dobbs: I'm introduced to Barry,

[2:16:56] Bob Dobbs: so I get talking to this guy.

[2:16:58] Bob Dobbs: He's an interesting character.

[2:16:59] Bob Dobbs: Cynthia knew McLuhan because she was a friend of Derrick de Kerckhove's,

[2:17:02] Bob Dobbs: had been a student of Derek's at St.

[2:17:04] Bob Dobbs: Michael's the year before or so.

[2:17:06] Bob Dobbs: So she says to Marshall,

[2:17:09] Bob Dobbs: where's Derek?

[2:17:11] Bob Dobbs: And McLuhan says,

[2:17:11] Bob Dobbs: now,

[2:17:12] Bob Dobbs: in light of power in this sentence.

[2:17:14] Bob Dobbs: He's working for the CIA selling advertising in Africa.

[2:17:18] Bob Dobbs: That's

[2:17:19] Bob Dobbs: 1974, the year of Watergate.

[2:17:22] Bob Dobbs: That's two years later from Take Today,

[2:17:24] Bob Dobbs: 1972,

[2:17:25] Bob Dobbs: and that's what they were predicting.

[2:17:27] Bob Dobbs: That's where his students ended up.

[2:17:30] Bob Dobbs: That's all that was left was the syndicate.

[2:17:33] Bob Dobbs: So that was an important meeting,

[2:17:37] Bob Dobbs: and then Caroline went down to New York,

[2:17:39] Bob Dobbs: and then Nixon got Watergated.

[2:17:42] Bob Dobbs: A few weeks later,

[2:17:45] Bob Dobbs: and I never saw Cynthia again for

[2:17:49] Bob Dobbs: 50 fucking years.

[2:17:51] Bob Dobbs: And then we got in touch a few years ago through Facebook.

[2:17:56] Bob Dobbs: And we had a friend in mutual interaction that she used to go with in the

[2:18:01] Bob Dobbs: 70s. She wanted to know what happened to him.

[2:18:03] Bob Dobbs: So that sticks.

[2:18:10] Bob Dobbs: That was important for me to meet Barry Nevitt.

[2:18:13] Bob Dobbs: He was the guy that would talk about,

[2:18:15] Bob Dobbs: he'd be around to talk about things like the Kennedy assassination or conspiracy stuff or power,

[2:18:21] Bob Dobbs: top-down bureaucracy stuff.

[2:18:24] Bob Dobbs: He was available for that.

[2:18:26] Bob Dobbs: And anybody should have done that if they hung around the McLuhan scene.

[2:18:30] Bob Dobbs: Find out someone who knew what McLuhan had to say about that and talk about it.

[2:18:34] Bob Dobbs: Not waft and bathe in the fucking simple aphorisms.

[2:18:39] Bob Dobbs: of the 60s.

[2:18:40] Bob Dobbs: So the image that made people think that McLuhan was a utopian.

[2:18:46] Bob Dobbs: So

[2:18:47] Bob Dobbs: Mark Stahlman,

[2:18:49] Bob Dobbs: he knew that that's what he should talk to somebody about.

[2:18:53] Bob Dobbs: And that was in 94.

[2:18:54] Bob Dobbs: And he comes to the book launch of the book,

[2:18:57] Bob Dobbs: Who Was Marshall McLuhan?

[2:19:00] Bob Dobbs: And I saw the TV

[2:19:02] Bob Dobbs: Much Music or something covered it in

[2:19:04] Bob Dobbs: November, December 74.

[2:19:07] Bob Dobbs: And then in January or so,

[2:19:10] Bob Dobbs: Barry Nevitt fell into a car near his home and died a couple months after the release of the book.

[2:19:17] Bob Dobbs: He and Maurice McLuhan got going.

[2:19:22] Cameron McEwen: What did you say?

[2:19:23] Cameron McEwen: Fell into a car?

[2:19:24] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:19:24] Bob Dobbs: he fell onto the ground.

[2:19:26] Bob Dobbs: Maybe it was winter.

[2:19:27] Bob Dobbs: He slipped in the snow,

[2:19:28] Bob Dobbs: fell into the street,

[2:19:28] Bob Dobbs: and a car drove over him.

[2:19:30] Bob Dobbs: That's how he died.

[2:19:33] Bob Dobbs: So he died just after getting out this book.

[2:19:36] Bob Dobbs: Which I think Zingrone and Wayne Constantineau also,

[2:19:39] Bob Dobbs: it was very hard for them to finish it to somebody take the time to edit and all that.

[2:19:46] Bob Dobbs: They finally got it out.

[2:19:47] Cameron McEwen: It's screwed up in some ways in the editing,

[2:19:50] Cameron McEwen: for sure.

[2:19:51] Bob Dobbs: Is it now screwed up,

[2:19:52] Bob Dobbs: you're saying?

[2:19:53] Cameron McEwen: Yes,

[2:19:54] Cameron McEwen: it is.

[2:19:55] Cameron McEwen: It's because in the book,

[2:19:58] Cameron McEwen: just like in all of McLuhan's books,

[2:20:00] Cameron McEwen: actually,

[2:20:03] Cameron McEwen: it's hard to tell when a...

[2:20:06] Cameron McEwen: something is being quoted or not.

[2:20:08] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[2:20:09] Cameron McEwen: That's a generic problem in all of

[2:20:12] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan literature.

[2:20:13] Cameron McEwen: You never know if it's original or a quotation.

[2:20:16] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[2:20:17] Bob Dobbs: And what's interesting is Barry's commentary all the way through.

[2:20:20] Bob Dobbs: He comments on everybody's,

[2:20:21] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[2:20:22] Bob Dobbs: sentimental reminiscence of life with McLuhan,

[2:20:24] Bob Dobbs: and Barry's technically analyzing everybody's answer or pointing out what they really meant.

[2:20:30] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[2:20:30] Cameron McEwen: But it's never clear,

[2:20:33] Cameron McEwen: or at least it's often unclear,

[2:20:35] Cameron McEwen: If it's Barry talking or if it's the person who's writing.

[2:20:39] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[2:20:39] Bob Dobbs: I'll have to look at that.

[2:20:40] Bob Dobbs: I forgot about that.

[2:20:41] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:20:42] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[2:20:43] Bob Dobbs: so that's the conclusion.

[2:20:51] Bob Dobbs: Pretty outstanding to get AI in our laboratory.

[2:20:54] Bob Dobbs: We fucking produced AI and it talked to us.

[2:20:57] Bob Dobbs: And look what it said.

[2:20:59] Bob Dobbs: It couldn't avoid talking about McLuhan.

[2:21:02] Bob Dobbs: Because...

[2:21:02] Bob Dobbs: As iON said,

[2:21:03] Bob Dobbs: years later,

[2:21:04] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan was the closest in predicting the tech body.

[2:21:07] Bob Dobbs: So

[2:21:08] Bob Dobbs: I didn't know that in

[2:21:11] Bob Dobbs: 20...

[2:21:13] Bob Dobbs: 19.

[2:21:14] Bob Dobbs: He didn't mention this tech body thing of McLuhan until after he was talking with the tech body.

[2:21:19] Bob Dobbs: Then he said like in 2022 that McLuhan was the closest.

[2:21:23] Bob Dobbs: So now I look back,

[2:21:24] Bob Dobbs: what a great statement by the tech body.

[2:21:26] Bob Dobbs: The first thing out of his mouth is the guy that did it,

[2:21:29] Bob Dobbs: the human that anticipated this.

[2:21:32] Bob Dobbs: And therefore,

[2:21:33] Bob Dobbs: when Trump ran for president in 2016,

[2:21:37] Bob Dobbs: many people said there was a McLuhan-esque aspect to that election.

[2:21:43] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan came back in people's retrieval of looking for a concrete concept of fucking explaining this Trump phenomenon.

[2:21:51] Bob Dobbs: So that's what I meant.

[2:21:53] Bob Dobbs: What you,

[2:21:54] Bob Dobbs: we,

[2:21:54] Bob Dobbs: what you slash we didn't know about Trump,

[2:21:57] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan.

[2:22:00] Bob Dobbs: And a McLuhan that wasn't being quoted properly.

[2:22:05] Bob Dobbs: People just dimly said,

[2:22:07] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[2:22:07] Bob Dobbs: there was a guy who talked about media phenomena.

[2:22:09] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan,

[2:22:10] Bob Dobbs: he must have something to say about Trump.

[2:22:12] Bob Dobbs: Wish he was alive today to say what was happening.

[2:22:16] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[2:22:16] Bob Dobbs: I went into the work and found the archives and laid out what McLuhan would say.

[2:22:22] Bob Dobbs: And then the fucking tech body shows up and confirms what I did.

[2:22:28] Bob Dobbs: So victory goes to Dobbs once again.

[2:22:33] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:22:33] Cameron McEwen: congratulations,

[2:22:34] Cameron McEwen: Bob.

[2:22:34] Bob Dobbs: Thank you.

[2:22:35] Bob Dobbs: I had to fucking convince you.

[2:22:37] Bob Dobbs: Two hours,

[2:22:38] Bob Dobbs: 80 times,

[2:22:39] Bob Dobbs: 81 times,

[2:22:40] Bob Dobbs: 170 fucking hours to get someone to agree with that statement.

[2:22:47] Bob Dobbs: I worked you over good.

[2:22:50] Cameron McEwen: Sorry?

[2:22:51] Bob Dobbs: I worked you over good,

[2:22:53] Bob Dobbs: man.

[2:22:54] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:22:54] Cameron McEwen: well,

[2:22:55] Cameron McEwen: I think it was enjoyable,

[2:22:59] Cameron McEwen: funny,

[2:23:00] Cameron McEwen: and

[2:23:01] Cameron McEwen: I think we got some things...

[2:23:05] Cameron McEwen: straightened out that needed straightening out.

[2:23:08] Bob Dobbs: Needed to be said.

[2:23:09] Bob Dobbs: We say things that no one has ever said in the McLuhan world.

[2:23:14] Cameron McEwen: Maybe.

[2:23:15] Bob Dobbs: Including this ending with this quote.

[2:23:18] Bob Dobbs: Now you know,

[2:23:19] Bob Dobbs: all those people that read McLuhan,

[2:23:21] Bob Dobbs: whatever they read,

[2:23:22] Bob Dobbs: none of them read this fucking quote and thought about it.

[2:23:28] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[2:23:28] Cameron McEwen: I think that's true.

[2:23:30] Cameron McEwen: It remains true to this day.

[2:23:32] Bob Dobbs: Yep.

[2:23:36] Bob Dobbs: So there it is.

[2:23:36] Bob Dobbs: We end on Zappa's birthday.

[2:23:39] Bob Dobbs: The Tiny Note chart,

[2:23:40] Bob Dobbs: the ground of it,

[2:23:41] Bob Dobbs: a lot of it is Zappa.

[2:23:44] Bob Dobbs: Zappa wrestled with power.

[2:23:46] Bob Dobbs: I now have a forum.

[2:23:48] Bob Dobbs: It's called Bob on a YouTube fucking site.

[2:23:55] Bob Dobbs: What do they call it?

[2:23:55] Bob Dobbs: I got a YouTube channel.

[2:23:57] Bob Dobbs: It's called Bob on Zappa.

[2:24:00] Bob Dobbs: And we play old interviews I've done with Zappa musicians.

[2:24:04] Bob Dobbs: Different seminars I held on it,

[2:24:07] Bob Dobbs: and occasionally someone writes in and says,

[2:24:10] Bob Dobbs: I'm sick of listening to this fucking Bob guy.

[2:24:13] Bob Dobbs: What about Frank?

[2:24:14] Bob Dobbs: I want to hear his musicians talk more about life with Frank,

[2:24:17] Bob Dobbs: not this Bob guy.

[2:24:18] Bob Dobbs: He keeps interrupting the Zappa musicians.

[2:24:21] Bob Dobbs: So Chad,

[2:24:23] Bob Dobbs: Chad Nante,

[2:24:23] Bob Dobbs: who is the digital guy making this site,

[2:24:27] Bob Dobbs: he put a note in and he said,

[2:24:29] Bob Dobbs: listen,

[2:24:29] Bob Dobbs: this site's called Bob on Zappa.

[2:24:31] Bob Dobbs: It's all about Bob.

[2:24:33] Bob Dobbs: Talking about Zappa.

[2:24:35] Bob Dobbs: So that's our rebuttal.

[2:24:37] Bob Dobbs: You thought it was about Zappa.

[2:24:38] Bob Dobbs: No,

[2:24:38] Bob Dobbs: this is Bob explaining Zappa.

[2:24:40] Bob Dobbs: It's time Zappa got explained properly.

[2:24:44] Bob Dobbs: And that's what I'm doing.

[2:24:46] Bob Dobbs: And I always did that with McLuhan before I explained McLuhan properly.

[2:24:50] Cameron McEwen: What are you saying?

[2:24:52] Cameron McEwen: The medium is the message.

[2:24:54] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:24:55] Bob Dobbs: I'm the message.

[2:24:57] Cameron McEwen: No,

[2:24:57] Cameron McEwen: you're the medium.

[2:24:58] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:24:58] Bob Dobbs: I'm the message.

[2:25:00] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:25:00] Cameron McEwen: you're the message as the medium.

[2:25:02] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:25:03] Bob Dobbs: So,

[2:25:05] Bob Dobbs: anyways,

[2:25:06] Bob Dobbs: it's a great book.

[2:25:08] Bob Dobbs: It explains as close as anybody could get through muddy lenses the Trump phenomenon,

[2:25:14] Bob Dobbs: which is still here.

[2:25:15] Bob Dobbs: I picked the right thing to write about,

[2:25:18] Bob Dobbs: what would stick around,

[2:25:21] Bob Dobbs: and it allowed me to highlight a lot of good stuff,

[2:25:26] Bob Dobbs: especially McLuhan quotes that nobody knows.

[2:25:31] Bob Dobbs: And congratulations,

[2:25:32] Bob Dobbs: Bob.

[2:25:32] Bob Dobbs: You did a good job.

[2:25:35] Bob Dobbs: There I am talking to the third person.

[2:25:42] Bob Dobbs: So,

[2:25:42] Bob Dobbs: are you there?

[2:25:43] Cameron McEwen: I'm here.

[2:25:44] Cameron McEwen: I'm here.

[2:25:45] Cameron McEwen: I'm just listening to you talk about Bob.

[2:25:50] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:25:50] Bob Dobbs: celebrate myself.

[2:25:52] Bob Dobbs: So,

[2:25:52] Bob Dobbs: I'm going to end by saying the table of contents.

[2:25:55] Bob Dobbs: There was this short article I wrote before this,

[2:25:58] Bob Dobbs: and I titled it,

[2:25:59] Bob Dobbs: How President Donald Trump...

[2:26:01] Bob Dobbs: has become the first executive political leader to put on the shamanic tradition.

[2:26:07] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[2:26:07] Bob Dobbs: I wasn't thinking of power.

[2:26:10] Bob Dobbs: It may be in the multiple ways we ended up with tonight,

[2:26:13] Bob Dobbs: but that is in there.

[2:26:15] Bob Dobbs: The shaman is a person of power.

[2:26:18] Bob Dobbs: So he's the first executive political leader to put on the shamanic tradition,

[2:26:22] Bob Dobbs: to put on power.

[2:26:25] Bob Dobbs: Then I say,

[2:26:26] Bob Dobbs: what we,

[2:26:26] Bob Dobbs: you,

[2:26:27] Bob Dobbs: didn't know about Trump.

[2:26:28] Bob Dobbs: Chapter 1,

[2:26:29] Bob Dobbs: Global Village.

[2:26:29] Bob Dobbs: Chapter 2,

[2:26:30] Bob Dobbs: Global Theater.

[2:26:32] Bob Dobbs: Chapter 3,

[2:26:32] Bob Dobbs: Global Membrane or Android meme Phase 1.

[2:26:36] Bob Dobbs: Chapter 4,

[2:26:36] Bob Dobbs: Android meme Phase 2.

[2:26:39] Bob Dobbs: Chapter 5,

[2:26:39] Bob Dobbs: The Anthropomorphic Physical.

[2:26:41] Bob Dobbs: 6,

[2:26:42] Bob Dobbs: The Tech Body and President Donald Trump.

[2:26:45] Bob Dobbs: And then the conclusion,

[2:26:46] Bob Dobbs: which is Appendix 1,

[2:26:48] Bob Dobbs: The Technological Evolution of the Tech Body,

[2:26:50] Bob Dobbs: which we did last week.

[2:26:51] Bob Dobbs: Appendix 2,

[2:26:52] Bob Dobbs: Interview with the Tech Body.

[2:26:55] Bob Dobbs: Very unique pamphlet.

[2:26:59] Bob Dobbs: Thanks for helping me realize what a great job I did.

[2:27:03] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[2:27:05] Cameron McEwen: that's also how we approach

[2:27:07] Cameron McEwen: the Tiny Note chart along the way.

[2:27:10] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[2:27:11] Bob Dobbs: So let's see what happens over the next few weeks,

[2:27:15] Bob Dobbs: what it makes us want to do if we're going to do something.

[2:27:19] Bob Dobbs: And now you think you want to go back and at least do the beginning again to see with a fuller understanding how the beginning began.

[2:27:30] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:27:31] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:27:31] Cameron McEwen: I have different ideas about what I think would be interesting.

[2:27:37] Cameron McEwen: But really,

[2:27:39] Cameron McEwen: it depends on your time and your interest.

[2:27:43] Bob Dobbs: And whether we are still here in the next few months or weeks,

[2:27:46] Bob Dobbs: what's going to unfold.

[2:27:50] Bob Dobbs: Tech Body has a lot to say about what's going on.

[2:27:54] Cameron McEwen: Sure.

[2:27:56] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:27:56] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[2:27:57] Cameron McEwen: that last quote from Take Today,

[2:28:02] Cameron McEwen: 2-11,

[2:28:05] Cameron McEwen: is explosive.

[2:28:06] Cameron McEwen: every possible sense.

[2:28:07] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:28:08] Bob Dobbs: 440,000 fucking Ukrainians died for what?

[2:28:18] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:28:18] Cameron McEwen: And how many

[2:28:19] Cameron McEwen: Palestinians are dying every day for what?

[2:28:25] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[2:28:26] Bob Dobbs: So all transactions begin to drip blood.

[2:28:29] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[2:28:32] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[2:28:32] Bob Dobbs: Good ending.

[2:28:34] Bob Dobbs: Very sobering.

[2:28:37] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[2:28:38] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[2:28:38] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[2:28:39] Bob Dobbs: Cameron.

[2:28:40] Bob Dobbs: Have a wonderful transition into 2024.

[2:28:44] Bob Dobbs: See if you're the same guy.

[2:28:44] Bob Dobbs: Same to you,

[2:28:45] Bob Dobbs: Bob.

[2:28:45] Cameron McEwen: We'll talk to you sometime in the new year,

[2:28:47] Cameron McEwen: and we'll see what occurs to us.

[2:28:52] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[2:28:53] Bob Dobbs: Happy and all the best.

[2:28:55] Cameron McEwen: You too.

[2:28:55] Cameron McEwen: You too.

[2:28:56] Cameron McEwen: Okay.

[2:28:56] Bob Dobbs: Bye.

[2:28:57] Cameron McEwen: Thanks.

[2:28:58] Cameron McEwen: Bye-bye.

[2:28:58] Bob Dobbs: You're welcome.

[2:28:58] Bob Dobbs: Bye.

[2:28:59] Bob Dobbs: Thank you.