Dialogue 44 — Transcript

[00:02] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[00:02] Bob Dobbs: this is Ewen Cameron and Bob again.

[00:04] Bob Dobbs: This is session 44,

[00:07] Bob Dobbs: and we're in the new year.

[00:09] Bob Dobbs: It's January 20th,

[00:10] Bob Dobbs: 2022,

[00:14] Bob Dobbs: and we're on page 81 of my book pamphlet,

[00:22] Bob Dobbs: Broadside.

[00:24] Bob Dobbs: And at the top,

[00:26] Bob Dobbs: there's a quote from

[00:29] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan, Hot and Cool.

[00:31] Bob Dobbs: Gerald Stearn,

[00:32] Bob Dobbs: the editor,

[00:34] Bob Dobbs: and there's an essay by Howard Luck Gossage,

[00:37] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan buddy,

[00:38] Bob Dobbs: and this is what he says.

[00:41] Bob Dobbs: Something else has happened too.

[00:43] Bob Dobbs: It has become an art form.

[00:45] Bob Dobbs: If it is successful as an art form and is admired and copied,

[00:49] Bob Dobbs: or at any rate persists so that it eventually becomes the one and only from which all others emanate,

[00:55] Bob Dobbs: it constitutes an archetype.

[00:56] Bob Dobbs: Today's archetype was yesterday's art form.

[01:01] Bob Dobbs: The day before yesterday's cliché,

[01:03] Bob Dobbs: and the day before that,

[01:03] Bob Dobbs: it was the last word.

[01:05] Bob Dobbs: And I read that in 67,

[01:07] Bob Dobbs: 68,

[01:08] Bob Dobbs: when it came out.

[01:09] Bob Dobbs: I'm really glad I did.

[01:10] Bob Dobbs: I thought,

[01:11] Bob Dobbs: that's a really interesting pattern.

[01:12] Bob Dobbs: And

[01:14] Bob Dobbs: I hadn't heard McLuhan use it.

[01:16] Bob Dobbs: But then,

[01:18] Bob Dobbs: from Cliché to archetype comes out in 70,

[01:20] Bob Dobbs: 70,

[01:21] Bob Dobbs: 71,

[01:23] Bob Dobbs: and

[01:24] Bob Dobbs: I recognize it's a distillation of the Gossage quote.

[01:29] Bob Dobbs: So I started...

[01:30] Bob Dobbs: using this a lot in talking to people and in seeing what things were doing.

[01:35] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[01:36] Bob Dobbs: I'd say that something became an art form,

[01:39] Bob Dobbs: but it wasn't an archetype yet.

[01:41] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[01:42] Bob Dobbs: when you read Cliché to

[01:43] Bob Dobbs: Archetype,

[01:43] Bob Dobbs: it gets blurred.

[01:45] Bob Dobbs: And

[01:47] Bob Dobbs: I would be particular about which phase something was.

[01:51] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan wasn't.

[01:51] Bob Dobbs: He was messy.

[01:53] Bob Dobbs: But then when City as Classroom came out in 77,

[01:57] Bob Dobbs: he says in there,

[01:59] Bob Dobbs: It's,

[01:59] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[01:59] Bob Dobbs: cliché to archetype or backwards.

[02:03] Bob Dobbs: He was including,

[02:05] Bob Dobbs: it didn't matter which way he took it.

[02:08] Bob Dobbs: And then as I got more familiar with

[02:10] Bob Dobbs: Finnegans Wake around that time,

[02:12] Bob Dobbs: I saw the shifting of Shem and Shaun.

[02:14] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[02:15] Bob Dobbs: they were flipping in each other all the time,

[02:16] Bob Dobbs: plus the sister.

[02:18] Bob Dobbs: And into the parents.

[02:20] Bob Dobbs: So

[02:21] Bob Dobbs: I said,

[02:21] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[02:21] Bob Dobbs: there's McLuhan being Finnegans Wake.

[02:24] Bob Dobbs: He's not getting,

[02:25] Bob Dobbs: he's not going to have hard.

[02:28] Bob Dobbs: defined white hats,

[02:30] Bob Dobbs: black hats,

[02:31] Bob Dobbs: or dualities.

[02:34] Bob Dobbs: He's going to blur them.

[02:35] Bob Dobbs: He's going to have to blur them.

[02:37] Bob Dobbs: And so I realized that people reading McLuhan,

[02:42] Bob Dobbs: the illiterate baby boomers,

[02:43] Bob Dobbs: would say,

[02:44] Bob Dobbs: the guy is mixed up.

[02:45] Bob Dobbs: He contradicts himself.

[02:47] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[02:47] Bob Dobbs: they would complain.

[02:48] Bob Dobbs: And that's what they didn't recognize is the blurring of the categories.

[02:53] Bob Dobbs: And you had to get into Innis way through that.

[02:56] Bob Dobbs: And not many people in the...

[02:58] Bob Dobbs: 60s,

[02:58] Bob Dobbs: 70s would go into Finnegans Wake.

[03:01] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[03:02] Cameron McEwen: there's actually multiple Burroughs going on.

[03:05] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[03:05] Cameron McEwen: Because if you want to have things that are distinct,

[03:11] Cameron McEwen: you're necessarily talking in linear fashion.

[03:16] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[03:17] Cameron McEwen: So once you become simultaneous,

[03:22] Cameron McEwen: then it's necessary for those...

[03:27] Cameron McEwen: formerly clear categories to be seen to be overlapping,

[03:33] Cameron McEwen: to be simultaneous,

[03:35] Cameron McEwen: and then they get blurry.

[03:36] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[03:39] Cameron McEwen: But another way of looking at this is that the Gutenberg Galaxy is always dualistic,

[03:49] Cameron McEwen: pointing to a singularity.

[03:52] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[03:53] Cameron McEwen: And so once you get away from...

[03:55] Cameron McEwen: Carl Williams and singularities away from the Gutenberg Galaxy,

[04:00] Cameron McEwen: then things become blurry when thought of in Gutenbergian terms.

[04:08] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[04:09] Bob Dobbs: That's when you become a musician.

[04:10] Bob Dobbs: That's when you realize Marshall was a musician.

[04:13] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[04:15] Cameron McEwen: Exactly.

[04:16] Bob Dobbs: And then years later,

[04:17] Bob Dobbs: I saw Baudrillard saw that,

[04:19] Bob Dobbs: so I give him credit for knowing that.

[04:22] Bob Dobbs: I think he's the first guy to write it in

[04:25] Bob Dobbs: in a book you know that McLuhan i regard McLuhan as a musician i don't think anybody ever said that other than him i was saying it conversationally but i wasn't a published author so it didn't matter McLuhan was saying that about himself yeah well not i never caught him saying it ever i don't think um i'm

[04:46] Bob Dobbs: not sure he he would um in in uh picnic in space he and harley are talking the boat.

[04:54] Bob Dobbs: what a SubGenius is.

[04:56] Bob Dobbs: And McLuhan is diminishing the,

[04:58] Bob Dobbs: the bourgeois hypnotism of the,

[05:00] Bob Dobbs: of the SubGenius.

[05:03] Bob Dobbs: So,

[05:04] Bob Dobbs: and then there was a quote way back there.

[05:06] Bob Dobbs: They asked McLuhan if he considered himself an artist,

[05:09] Bob Dobbs: and he says,

[05:10] Bob Dobbs: yes,

[05:11] Bob Dobbs: what I do can be considered poetry or art,

[05:14] Bob Dobbs: but I wouldn't limit it to that.

[05:16] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[05:17] Bob Dobbs: he wasn't trying to be the Gutenberg archetype.

[05:20] Bob Dobbs: It wasn't a big deal to be an artist anymore as a culture hero.

[05:27] Cameron McEwen: Ever since he read

[05:30] Cameron McEwen: Giedion,

[05:32] Cameron McEwen: Space,

[05:32] Cameron McEwen: Time,

[05:32] Cameron McEwen: and Architecture,

[05:34] Cameron McEwen: which was 1943,

[05:37] Cameron McEwen: he was very involved with the symphony metaphor.

[05:45] Cameron McEwen: He was always talking about how it was necessary to bring the different departments in the Acadia University different images in literature.

[06:01] Cameron McEwen: or science and art,

[06:05] Cameron McEwen: that these things had to be brought into tune,

[06:09] Cameron McEwen: into their existing symphonic relationship.

[06:15] Cameron McEwen: So there's a metaphor,

[06:19] Cameron McEwen: a topic of music that runs through

[06:24] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan work from at least

[06:28] Cameron McEwen: 1943 until the end.

[06:30] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[06:30] Bob Dobbs: now in...

[06:31] Bob Dobbs: 45 or so when he does the Southern Quality and talks about the effect of the atomic bomb,

[06:36] Bob Dobbs: he says the artist has too big of an ego to handle the effects of this.

[06:41] Bob Dobbs: So

[06:41] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan entered academia attacking the archetypes,

[06:46] Bob Dobbs: the icons of science and art,

[06:48] Bob Dobbs: the scientist,

[06:49] Bob Dobbs: the artist,

[06:50] Bob Dobbs: the SubGenius.

[06:51] Bob Dobbs: He knew that didn't work anymore.

[06:52] Bob Dobbs: And

[06:53] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if anybody had realized that.

[06:58] Bob Dobbs: Maybe...

[06:59] Bob Dobbs: But...

[07:01] Cameron McEwen: That relates closely to what we were just saying about blurring.

[07:07] Cameron McEwen: He didn't have anything against the artist and the scientist.

[07:12] Cameron McEwen: What he had an animus for was their separation and their isolation from each other.

[07:22] Bob Dobbs: And their art versus commerce versus humanism and stuff like that.

[07:27] Bob Dobbs: They didn't work anymore.

[07:29] Bob Dobbs: And so we were Königsbergian.

[07:31] Bob Dobbs: We were inside the technical apparatus,

[07:35] Bob Dobbs: and the categories,

[07:37] Bob Dobbs: the humanist,

[07:37] Bob Dobbs: chemical body categories didn't work anymore.

[07:40] Bob Dobbs: So he,

[07:40] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[07:41] Bob Dobbs: the beatniks might have seen that,

[07:44] Bob Dobbs: but they didn't know how to keep their lives organized.

[07:47] Bob Dobbs: They had an identity crisis around it.

[07:49] Bob Dobbs: They all reached out to

[07:51] Bob Dobbs: Buddhism or drugs and LSD and stuff.

[07:56] Bob Dobbs: They,

[07:56] Bob Dobbs: um...

[07:58] Bob Dobbs: They became a knee-jerk,

[08:04] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan called women in the Culture Is Our Business,

[08:09] Bob Dobbs: no longer the mechanical bribe,

[08:10] Bob Dobbs: they were the expendable jujube,

[08:13] Bob Dobbs: which was a candy.

[08:14] Cameron McEwen: You remember that?

[08:16] Bob Dobbs: The expendable.

[08:17] Bob Dobbs: No,

[08:17] Cameron McEwen: I don't remember it,

[08:18] Cameron McEwen: but that's a funny phrase.

[08:19] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[08:20] Bob Dobbs: jujube.

[08:21] Bob Dobbs: And he pointed out that sensory experience.

[08:27] Bob Dobbs: was not experienced anymore.

[08:30] Bob Dobbs: It was not about going out and experiencing some new strange territory and plunging into horizontal symbolism,

[08:38] Bob Dobbs: losing your identity.

[08:40] Bob Dobbs: That's what the culture became.

[08:42] Bob Dobbs: That became cultural tourism and what he called millennial phatic from the 60s on.

[08:52] Bob Dobbs: That's what he was critiquing.

[08:55] Bob Dobbs: Everybody who got inspired by McLuhan,

[08:57] Bob Dobbs: his content,

[08:59] Bob Dobbs: they thought,

[08:59] Bob Dobbs: oh,

[08:59] Bob Dobbs: wow,

[09:00] Bob Dobbs: he's justifying what I'm doing.

[09:02] Bob Dobbs: He's an existentialist.

[09:04] Bob Dobbs: And so they would go and hang out with him to see if he was partying,

[09:09] Bob Dobbs: and he wasn't.

[09:10] Bob Dobbs: And this would confuse people,

[09:12] Bob Dobbs: right?

[09:13] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[09:14] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[09:14] Bob Dobbs: And so he really was an anti-environment to the millennial phatic that was happening.

[09:21] Cameron McEwen: Sure.

[09:22] Bob Dobbs: And millennial phatic is a phrase in the...

[09:25] Bob Dobbs: introduction,

[09:26] Bob Dobbs: I think,

[09:26] Bob Dobbs: of the other McLuhan collection of essays called Pro and Con,

[09:30] Bob Dobbs: which came out a year after Hot and Cool.

[09:33] Bob Dobbs: That's a good collection.

[09:35] Bob Dobbs: But it's talking about McLuhan teaching a course at Fordham.

[09:39] Bob Dobbs: Raymond Rosenthal was the editor.

[09:42] Bob Dobbs: He interviewed McLuhan or something,

[09:45] Bob Dobbs: but he came up with this phrase.

[09:46] Bob Dobbs: I never saw McLuhan ever use it,

[09:49] Bob Dobbs: other than he was quoted there.

[09:52] Bob Dobbs: Millennial phatic.

[09:53] Bob Dobbs: And that's what he was looking at.

[09:55] Bob Dobbs: And that's a big factor in my chart.

[09:57] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[09:58] Bob Dobbs: I've got ecstasy is one-fifth of the situation,

[10:01] Bob Dobbs: but I've got the other.

[10:02] Bob Dobbs: emotions,

[10:03] Bob Dobbs: paranoia,

[10:03] Bob Dobbs: schizophrenia,

[10:04] Bob Dobbs: panic,

[10:05] Bob Dobbs: and hysteria.

[10:06] Bob Dobbs: But ecstasy has to be in there,

[10:08] Bob Dobbs: and it's actually the main one.

[10:10] Bob Dobbs: People were stoned on the super angelic state,

[10:15] Bob Dobbs: and they didn't know it,

[10:17] Bob Dobbs: or they didn't know how it Kostelanetz their previous enthusiasms.

[10:23] Bob Dobbs: Do you see what I'm saying?

[10:24] Bob Dobbs: In fact,

[10:25] Bob Dobbs: they kept running around trying to reinforce their previous enthusiasms and trying to make time to do it.

[10:32] Bob Dobbs: And that always ended up in a dead end because they already were in a state of pleasure or ecstasy invisibly or numbly.

[10:44] Bob Dobbs: You follow what I'm saying?

[10:47] Cameron McEwen: A little bit.

[10:50] Cameron McEwen: Are you saying that these were people that were wearing clothes that they didn't know they were wearing?

[11:02] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[11:03] Bob Dobbs: the new clothes they didn't know they were wearing,

[11:05] Bob Dobbs: and they were trying to take off their old clothes or make their old clothes more exciting.

[11:13] Cameron McEwen: Yes,

[11:13] Cameron McEwen: and of course there's a big contradiction between having a jacket on and trying to do something with your old jacket.

[11:23] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[11:25] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[11:26] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[11:29] Cameron McEwen: it becomes a funny kind of...

[11:32] Cameron McEwen: Panama.

[11:33] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[11:33] Bob Dobbs: that's where he has the,

[11:34] Bob Dobbs: in Culture Is Our Business,

[11:35] Bob Dobbs: he has the ad of the working class guy dressed up to go to the opera,

[11:42] Bob Dobbs: and McLuhan says this is a wolf in sheep's clothing,

[11:45] Bob Dobbs: or a sheep in wolf's clothing.

[11:48] Bob Dobbs: Do you remember that image?

[11:50] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[11:50] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[11:51] Bob Dobbs: And that was Culture Is Our Business.

[11:53] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[11:54] Bob Dobbs: the democratization of the elite activities.

[11:59] Bob Dobbs: of the highbrow art forms and sciences of the Gutenberg era became the content for the for the democratic man you know the third phase of Vico which was flipping into the Recorso so what was

[12:16] Bob Dobbs: I going to say next the okay so we're looking at what Gossage says the last word okay a new a novelty comes in the Beatles say

[12:29] Bob Dobbs: Or punk rock or rap.

[12:32] Bob Dobbs: And it's the last word.

[12:33] Bob Dobbs: The kids and young people doing it think it's the most amazing archetypal experience they can have.

[12:42] Bob Dobbs: And they argue against the older environment.

[12:46] Bob Dobbs: They make fun of it,

[12:47] Bob Dobbs: which is the cliché.

[12:49] Bob Dobbs: So the last word is up against the cliché.

[12:54] Bob Dobbs: probably the

[12:59] Bob Dobbs: The star of the Fed is trying to be an image from the past that has new charisma.

[13:09] Bob Dobbs: Often it would be aboriginal cultures,

[13:12] Bob Dobbs: to be a shaman.

[13:14] Bob Dobbs: So

[13:15] Bob Dobbs: I remember an interview with the Mamas and Papas guy,

[13:20] Bob Dobbs: John,

[13:20] Bob Dobbs: whatever his name was,

[13:23] Bob Dobbs: and he said,

[13:23] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[13:24] Bob Dobbs: where are the Shelleys and the

[13:26] Bob Dobbs: Lord Byron?

[13:27] Bob Dobbs: He was talking about the pop.

[13:29] Bob Dobbs: heroes,

[13:30] Bob Dobbs: the pop music aristocracy,

[13:34] Bob Dobbs: they weren't,

[13:35] Bob Dobbs: they were big just before FM radio,

[13:39] Bob Dobbs: 65,

[13:40] Bob Dobbs: 66,

[13:42] Bob Dobbs: and yet they were beatniks.

[13:44] Bob Dobbs: So,

[13:48] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[13:48] Cameron McEwen: so they were playing a big beatniks.

[13:51] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[13:51] Bob Dobbs: And so when they got interviewed,

[13:54] Bob Dobbs: they bragged about their,

[13:56] Bob Dobbs: their

[13:57] Bob Dobbs: Gutenbergian archetype they thought they were retrieving.

[14:00] Bob Dobbs: And then maybe 10 years later,

[14:03] Bob Dobbs: the next generations were not going for the book archetypes like Byron and the poets.

[14:09] Bob Dobbs: They were going for shamans or the Carlos Castaneda world,

[14:14] Bob Dobbs: the drug-taking world.

[14:15] Bob Dobbs: Meanwhile,

[14:16] Bob Dobbs: the population was taking in the 70s more and more cocaine,

[14:19] Bob Dobbs: right?

[14:20] Bob Dobbs: Ridiculously out of control.

[14:23] Bob Dobbs: So.

[14:26] Bob Dobbs: The retrieving of some shaman thing is the art form phase.

[14:31] Bob Dobbs: And then to even start a band by the

[14:37] Bob Dobbs: 80s is an archetypal thing.

[14:39] Bob Dobbs: Everybody does it.

[14:40] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?

[14:42] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[14:44] Bob Dobbs: In the youth culture,

[14:46] Bob Dobbs: which was what everybody was looking at to bounce off of.

[14:51] Bob Dobbs: So

[14:52] Bob Dobbs: I have here the last word is rhetorical.

[14:55] Bob Dobbs: Action of the new effects.

[14:57] Bob Dobbs: immediately persuasive.

[14:59] Bob Dobbs: Then the cliché is the dialectical action of resistance to the effects,

[15:04] Bob Dobbs: and that's Hegelian,

[15:05] Bob Dobbs: relatively ignored.

[15:07] Bob Dobbs: Then the art form of retrieval is grammatical action of the effects as metonymy,

[15:13] Bob Dobbs: searching for origins or for new images of culture heroes,

[15:20] Bob Dobbs: which could be people ransacking the planet for that.

[15:24] Bob Dobbs: Then the archetype...

[15:26] Bob Dobbs: is the musical,

[15:27] Bob Dobbs: geometrical,

[15:28] Bob Dobbs: astronomical,

[15:29] Bob Dobbs: and arithmetical,

[15:30] Bob Dobbs: all of them,

[15:33] Bob Dobbs: all aspects of the quadrivium,

[15:36] Bob Dobbs: action of the effects in cyclic simultaneity.

[15:39] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[15:41] Bob Dobbs: I've got here musical,

[15:42] Bob Dobbs: geometrical,

[15:42] Bob Dobbs: astronomical,

[15:43] Bob Dobbs: and arithmetical,

[15:44] Bob Dobbs: and I've got tetrad.

[15:47] Bob Dobbs: See,

[15:47] Bob Dobbs: that's the quadrivium,

[15:51] Bob Dobbs: and I'm turning it into a tetrad.

[15:54] Bob Dobbs: You see?

[15:56] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[15:56] Cameron McEwen: I see.

[15:57] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[15:58] Cameron McEwen: You sound like you're a little dubious about that yourself.

[16:03] Bob Dobbs: No,

[16:03] Bob Dobbs: I was mixed up.

[16:04] Bob Dobbs: I thought I said,

[16:05] Bob Dobbs: why did they put Tyrwhitt?

[16:05] Bob Dobbs: That should be quadrophrenia.

[16:08] Bob Dobbs: But

[16:10] Bob Dobbs: I listened.

[16:11] Bob Dobbs: It should have been.

[16:13] Bob Dobbs: I thought I was looking at the trivial.

[16:17] Bob Dobbs: And it should be quadrophrenia.

[16:20] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[16:20] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[16:20] Bob Dobbs: you got it.

[16:21] Bob Dobbs: Neither applied.

[16:22] Bob Dobbs: It was a tetrad.

[16:22] Bob Dobbs: It was actually a clever thing I did.

[16:24] Bob Dobbs: I was just catching up to myself what the hell I meant.

[16:28] Bob Dobbs: It was the tetrad of the four aspects of the quadrivium.

[16:34] Bob Dobbs: No more trivial,

[16:35] Bob Dobbs: as we heard you saying last week.

[16:39] Bob Dobbs: It's the last gasp of the quadrophrenia,

[16:43] Bob Dobbs: what's going on here,

[16:43] Bob Dobbs: but it's in a tetrad reality.

[16:46] Bob Dobbs: So

[16:47] Bob Dobbs: I like these statements I'm making.

[16:49] Bob Dobbs: what am I trying to say?

[16:50] Bob Dobbs: I do that,

[16:52] Bob Dobbs: and then I say,

[16:55] Bob Dobbs: just a minute,

[16:56] Bob Dobbs: I moved the thing.

[17:00] Bob Dobbs: So I say,

[17:01] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan Explorations why people came to deeply identify with whales and dolphins,

[17:05] Bob Dobbs: why Carlos Castaneda books became popular in the late 60s,

[17:09] Bob Dobbs: his teachers could change,

[17:11] Bob Dobbs: Carlos'

[17:11] Bob Dobbs: teachers could change into animals,

[17:13] Bob Dobbs: and why incest became a prevalent phenomenon.

[17:16] Bob Dobbs: So that's me.

[17:19] Bob Dobbs: Talking about three and four,

[17:22] Bob Dobbs: mainly three.

[17:23] Bob Dobbs: I was just explaining what the art form level was.

[17:28] Cameron McEwen: Before we leave that,

[17:29] Cameron McEwen: though,

[17:29] Bob Dobbs: let's...

[17:32] Bob Dobbs: I have one more statement to make with that.

[17:34] Bob Dobbs: In McLuhan lecture,

[17:38] Bob Dobbs: something about 2000,

[17:39] Bob Dobbs: he did some place in 74 or 75,

[17:43] Bob Dobbs: and I saw it at TV Ontario,

[17:45] Bob Dobbs: the video of it.

[17:46] Bob Dobbs: Did you ever see that or read it?

[17:49] Bob Dobbs: No,

[17:49] Cameron McEwen: I have the book.

[17:51] Bob Dobbs: Right,

[17:51] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[17:52] Cameron McEwen: I haven't seen any video associated with it.

[17:56] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[17:57] Bob Dobbs: in the video,

[17:59] Bob Dobbs: somebody,

[18:00] Bob Dobbs: some smart student gets up and kind of says this,

[18:07] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[18:07] Bob Dobbs: the last word,

[18:09] Bob Dobbs: and it becomes an art form.

[18:10] Bob Dobbs: And then he said,

[18:11] Bob Dobbs: but then there's more of it.

[18:13] Bob Dobbs: And so it's speeded up,

[18:15] Bob Dobbs: he was saying.

[18:17] Bob Dobbs: And McLuhan says,

[18:17] Bob Dobbs: oh yes,

[18:18] Bob Dobbs: it's many times over.

[18:21] Bob Dobbs: So that was where I got the idea of baroque spirals.

[18:26] Bob Dobbs: He was saying that this four-part thing of Gossage was happening fast.

[18:32] Bob Dobbs: And you could say it was just about ideas in the media.

[18:38] Bob Dobbs: The ideas were what people were reacting to.

[18:42] Bob Dobbs: That was the art.

[18:43] Bob Dobbs: That was the...

[18:45] Bob Dobbs: the

[18:47] Bob Dobbs: looking for concepts for identity.

[18:50] Bob Dobbs: To make an object was irrelevant.

[18:53] Bob Dobbs: A composition,

[18:54] Bob Dobbs: a movie,

[18:54] Bob Dobbs: a TV show was irrelevant for having an anti-environment perspective.

[19:00] Bob Dobbs: You just had to see what ideas people were feeling a relevance of and then see the ground of that.

[19:08] Bob Dobbs: So that was really important for me to see that or to interpret it that way,

[19:14] Bob Dobbs: that the...

[19:16] Bob Dobbs: The art form,

[19:17] Bob Dobbs: so in the Forces interview,

[19:19] Bob Dobbs: the Hydro-Quebec magazine,

[19:21] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan says,

[19:23] Bob Dobbs: the media art forms,

[19:24] Bob Dobbs: he says,

[19:24] Bob Dobbs: it's not baseball,

[19:26] Bob Dobbs: hockey,

[19:27] Bob Dobbs: wrestling,

[19:28] Bob Dobbs: which certain writers of the baby boomer level were getting into.

[19:32] Bob Dobbs: They weren't into,

[19:34] Bob Dobbs: they had gone to Yale and did their book culture,

[19:38] Bob Dobbs: but then they go to New York and they get,

[19:39] Bob Dobbs: quote,

[19:40] Bob Dobbs: corrupted,

[19:41] Bob Dobbs: and they're not into being hoity-toity Gutenberg people.

[19:45] Bob Dobbs: elitist anymore,

[19:46] Bob Dobbs: but they have to be something.

[19:48] Bob Dobbs: So they started celebrating stupid stuff like wrestling and race car driving.

[19:55] Bob Dobbs: But McLuhan was on to that.

[19:57] Bob Dobbs: At the time it was happening,

[19:59] Bob Dobbs: Richard Meltzer was one of these guys who did this.

[20:01] Bob Dobbs: At that time in the early

[20:03] Bob Dobbs: 70s, and McLuhan's saying,

[20:04] Bob Dobbs: it's not sport.

[20:06] Bob Dobbs: It's not horse racing.

[20:09] Bob Dobbs: He was naming,

[20:10] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[20:10] Bob Dobbs: cliche working class activities as if they could be what he means by media as art forms.

[20:18] Bob Dobbs: He says it's the media themselves.

[20:20] Bob Dobbs: And that was the turnover of information processing and pattern recognition.

[20:26] Bob Dobbs: which probably gets us into the quote on page 190.

[20:30] Bob Dobbs: In Take Today,

[20:31] Bob Dobbs: he has the quote where art,

[20:36] Bob Dobbs: science,

[20:37] Bob Dobbs: and nature merge through understanding media.

[20:39] Bob Dobbs: Remember that quote?

[20:40] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[20:41] Bob Dobbs: See,

[20:42] Bob Dobbs: that's...

[20:43] Bob Dobbs: And see,

[20:43] Bob Dobbs: that,

[20:44] Bob Dobbs: if you really live with that,

[20:47] Bob Dobbs: you're not welcome in the categories anymore.

[20:50] Bob Dobbs: You won't be able to function in academia.

[20:55] Bob Dobbs: You'd have to open an art gallery or start a rock band,

[21:01] Bob Dobbs: which a lot of people would do.

[21:02] Bob Dobbs: A lot of professors,

[21:04] Bob Dobbs: you could say it was a modern version of slumming.

[21:07] Bob Dobbs: People went into bohemian in the 20s.

[21:09] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[21:10] Bob Dobbs: in the

[21:13] Bob Dobbs: 70s and 80s,

[21:15] Bob Dobbs: literate professors would have an identity crisis,

[21:18] Bob Dobbs: and they would get involved in modern arts.

[21:21] Bob Dobbs: Kroker did that.

[21:21] Bob Dobbs: He formed a punk band.

[21:24] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[21:24] Bob Dobbs: and he was a political economist.

[21:28] Bob Dobbs: That's what was I saying that that was an attempt to.

[21:34] Bob Dobbs: OK,

[21:35] Bob Dobbs: doing that was trying to respond to the each new pattern every 12 months as things unfolded and flipped.

[21:48] Bob Dobbs: New fads happened or trends.

[21:52] Bob Dobbs: But to react by going into the electronic arts was not the answer.

[21:57] Bob Dobbs: The answer was to do nothing,

[22:00] Bob Dobbs: which is what you say.

[22:01] Bob Dobbs: You are not impressed with columnists or commentators or artists or anybody,

[22:08] Bob Dobbs: right?

[22:09] Bob Dobbs: I've heard you say that.

[22:10] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[22:13] Cameron McEwen: I think all of those things need to be understood.

[22:19] Cameron McEwen: once um

[22:21] Cameron McEwen: you consolidate identity,

[22:24] Cameron McEwen: which is what you're talking about.

[22:25] Cameron McEwen: Once you consolidate identity,

[22:28] Cameron McEwen: then you have the problem that it inevitably turns into cliché,

[22:33] Cameron McEwen: in which case it's no longer identity.

[22:36] Cameron McEwen: And so then,

[22:37] Cameron McEwen: as you show Innis list,

[22:42] Cameron McEwen: which I take to be cyclic simultaneity,

[22:46] Cameron McEwen: not linearity,

[22:48] Cameron McEwen: these things are in dynamic.

[22:51] Cameron McEwen: interaction.

[22:52] Cameron McEwen: So what you're talking about,

[22:55] Cameron McEwen: what people were trying to find in the 70s and 80s was a way of finding themselves at home in a world that was going faster and faster and denying their

[23:11] Cameron McEwen: old ways of having an identity.

[23:15] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[23:15] Bob Dobbs: they didn't even know what a home was anymore.

[23:18] Cameron McEwen: Correct.

[23:19] Cameron McEwen: However,

[23:20] Cameron McEwen: What?

[23:20] Cameron McEwen: what you've described is people,

[23:23] Cameron McEwen: in spite of that,

[23:24] Cameron McEwen: what they're trying to do is find some identity as if this were still possible.

[23:31] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[23:32] Bob Dobbs: Nobody was giving that up.

[23:34] Bob Dobbs: Nobody was going to give that up.

[23:36] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[23:37] Cameron McEwen: But that's unfortunate because if you can't give that up,

[23:42] Cameron McEwen: which is what McLuhan called being value-free,

[23:46] Cameron McEwen: then you really can't analyze what's going on.

[23:49] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[23:50] Cameron McEwen: And that's where all things need to be understood equally,

[23:55] Cameron McEwen: you could say.

[23:56] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[23:57] Bob Dobbs: in Interior landscape,

[23:58] Bob Dobbs: he says the artist becomes all things.

[24:01] Bob Dobbs: And the artist with the atomic bomb,

[24:04] Bob Dobbs: it's a big attack on the artist's ego.

[24:09] Bob Dobbs: You couldn't be an artist in the

[24:11] Bob Dobbs: Hemingway, James Joyce method anymore.

[24:14] Bob Dobbs: And we don't know how much Joyce understood that,

[24:17] Bob Dobbs: but his book tells you that.

[24:19] Bob Dobbs: Finnegans Wake,

[24:20] Bob Dobbs: you know?

[24:21] Bob Dobbs: It's the correct statement.

[24:24] Cameron McEwen: No,

[24:24] Cameron McEwen: Joyce understood that very well by making fun of himself.

[24:28] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[24:30] Cameron McEwen: Not only in Finnegans Wake,

[24:32] Cameron McEwen: but especially in Finnegans Wake.

[24:34] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[24:36] Cameron McEwen: So it's

[24:38] Cameron McEwen: Shaun is the writer,

[24:39] Cameron McEwen: isn't he?

[24:39] Cameron McEwen: Yep.

[24:41] Cameron McEwen: No,

[24:42] Cameron McEwen: no,

[24:42] Bob Dobbs: Shem's the writer.

[24:43] Bob Dobbs: Shem's the writer.

[24:47] Cameron McEwen: So Shem the Postman?

[24:49] Bob Dobbs: No,

[24:50] Bob Dobbs: it's Shaun the Postman.

[24:51] Bob Dobbs: He's the respectable son,

[24:54] Bob Dobbs: the clean-living son.

[24:56] Bob Dobbs: And Shem the writer is the guy putting shit on us.

[25:01] Bob Dobbs: arms.

[25:02] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[25:03] Cameron McEwen: And that's

[25:04] Cameron McEwen: Joyce commenting on himself and the vocation of the writer,

[25:10] Cameron McEwen: right?

[25:11] Bob Dobbs: Yep.

[25:12] Bob Dobbs: But it's even more complicated.

[25:14] Bob Dobbs: That's what the new criticism gets into,

[25:17] Bob Dobbs: how it flips.

[25:18] Bob Dobbs: He's Shem,

[25:19] Bob Dobbs: Shaun,

[25:19] Bob Dobbs: he's his father,

[25:20] Bob Dobbs: he's Issy.

[25:21] Bob Dobbs: It's all mixed up.

[25:23] Cameron McEwen: HCE.

[25:24] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[25:25] Bob Dobbs: HCE bodies.

[25:27] Bob Dobbs: Here comes the bodies.

[25:29] Bob Dobbs: Dobbs,

[25:30] Bob Dobbs: right?

[25:30] Bob Dobbs: HCB.

[25:33] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[25:33] Cameron McEwen: we'll see.

[25:34] Cameron McEwen: That's what we're getting into.

[25:35] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[25:38] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[25:38] Cameron McEwen: Let me just say that the phrase cyclic simultaneity is an excellent phrase.

[25:47] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[25:47] Cameron McEwen: And in order to understand what's going on with the trivial and quadrophrenia here,

[25:58] Cameron McEwen: all of these last word cliche are...

[26:00] Cameron McEwen: form and archetype need to be seen in dynamic interaction.

[26:05] Cameron McEwen: So each of them gives birth to the others.

[26:11] Cameron McEwen: That's what I meant by tetrad.

[26:15] Bob Dobbs: The four quadrophrenia aspects interplay like a tetrad.

[26:19] Bob Dobbs: That's what I meant by that.

[26:24] Bob Dobbs: Now cyclic simultaneity I got from Eric's PhD.

[26:29] Bob Dobbs: He used that phrase somewhere in his explaining Innis Wake.

[26:34] Bob Dobbs: I'll give him kudos.

[26:36] Bob Dobbs: He said it.

[26:37] Bob Dobbs: That's where I got it.

[26:39] Cameron McEwen: You're talking about

[26:40] Cameron McEwen: Ten Thunders,

[26:41] Cameron McEwen: or you're talking about the PhD?

[26:42] Bob Dobbs: The PhD,

[26:43] Bob Dobbs: which is better.

[26:45] Bob Dobbs: The book is okay,

[26:46] Bob Dobbs: but there's 100 pages on the history of Menippean satire in the PhD,

[26:50] Bob Dobbs: which is not in the book,

[26:52] Bob Dobbs: the Roll of Thunder book in 97.

[26:55] Bob Dobbs: So I don't know how people would get...

[26:59] Bob Dobbs: Do you write to Andrew?

[27:01] Bob Dobbs: Because you had to write to Eric to get the PhD.

[27:03] Bob Dobbs: You had to get him to sign off on it.

[27:07] Bob Dobbs: And you're not getting the full understanding unless you read the PhD.

[27:14] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[27:14] Cameron McEwen: that could be.

[27:15] Cameron McEwen: I haven't read the PhD.

[27:16] Cameron McEwen: I just know something about it secondhand.

[27:21] Cameron McEwen: Probably through Andrew,

[27:22] Cameron McEwen: I guess.

[27:24] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[27:24] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[27:25] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if Andrew knows that,

[27:26] Bob Dobbs: but someone's got to tell him.

[27:29] Bob Dobbs: see if he knows about it,

[27:31] Bob Dobbs: and then maybe he'll make himself available to do it.

[27:34] Bob Dobbs: But the history of Menippean satire is brilliant.

[27:38] Bob Dobbs: It goes through all the phases,

[27:39] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[27:40] Bob Dobbs: 2,000 years of it,

[27:41] Bob Dobbs: and gets up to today.

[27:45] Bob Dobbs: But all you get in his hardcover text is

[27:49] Bob Dobbs: 10 pages or something.

[27:50] Bob Dobbs: It's very brief.

[27:51] Bob Dobbs: It doesn't give the history.

[27:53] Bob Dobbs: And he takes on all the different...

[27:55] Bob Dobbs: literary critics and historians through the centuries who talk about it.

[28:00] Bob Dobbs: It was called Varronian satire like 300 years ago.

[28:02] Bob Dobbs: Dryden retrieved it and called it Varronian because they only knew about it from Vero,

[28:08] Bob Dobbs: who wrote about Menippean.

[28:11] Bob Dobbs: There was nothing much from Menippean.

[28:13] Bob Dobbs: So it's very important to get the history of Menippean satire and why it changed.

[28:21] Bob Dobbs: And the standard...

[28:23] Bob Dobbs: an encyclopedic or dictionary definition is not accurate.

[28:28] Bob Dobbs: It's generally,

[28:29] Bob Dobbs: maybe today,

[28:31] Bob Dobbs: it's a little more up to date,

[28:32] Bob Dobbs: but back then,

[28:33] Bob Dobbs: 40 years ago,

[28:34] Bob Dobbs: it was a satire on the philosopher,

[28:38] Bob Dobbs: satire on ideas.

[28:40] Bob Dobbs: So it would sort of imply there was a lot of ideas in these satires,

[28:43] Bob Dobbs: and they were making fun of people who thought ideas,

[28:48] Bob Dobbs: which,

[28:48] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[28:49] Bob Dobbs: that's Gutenbergian.

[28:51] Bob Dobbs: It doesn't get into what satirized in the 20th century,

[28:54] Bob Dobbs: which is what Joyce,

[28:56] Bob Dobbs: Lewis,

[28:56] Bob Dobbs: and Pound were working on,

[28:59] Bob Dobbs: to update Menippean satire.

[29:02] Bob Dobbs: Change it.

[29:02] Cameron McEwen: Sure.

[29:03] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[29:04] Cameron McEwen: that fits into last word,

[29:06] Cameron McEwen: cliché,

[29:07] Cameron McEwen: and art form,

[29:07] Cameron McEwen: right?

[29:09] Bob Dobbs: What do you say?

[29:10] Cameron McEwen: The last form are philosophical ideas.

[29:13] Cameron McEwen: The cliché is seeing that there's something comical about them all.

[29:18] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[29:18] Cameron McEwen: And the art form is an attempt.

[29:20] Cameron McEwen: to deal with that comedy.

[29:23] Bob Dobbs: And maybe,

[29:25] Bob Dobbs: you see,

[29:25] Bob Dobbs: I always remember,

[29:27] Bob Dobbs: I think I've told this a couple of times,

[29:30] Bob Dobbs: when I sat in an Eric's class at the

[29:33] Bob Dobbs: Art College of Ontario,

[29:36] Bob Dobbs: some kid asked him,

[29:37] Bob Dobbs: what's Menippean satire?

[29:38] Bob Dobbs: And he said,

[29:39] Bob Dobbs: you see that bum that sits out in front of the

[29:43] Bob Dobbs: Art College?

[29:44] Bob Dobbs: He sat there,

[29:45] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[29:46] Bob Dobbs: shitting and eating by the entrance to the...

[29:49] Bob Dobbs: hoity-toity museum and he said that's a Menippean satire

[29:55] Bob Dobbs: And they had the philosophy of cynicism.

[29:58] Bob Dobbs: So he said,

[30:00] Bob Dobbs: this bum sitting there being a problem,

[30:02] Bob Dobbs: he was probably removed after a week or two,

[30:04] Bob Dobbs: right?

[30:05] Bob Dobbs: And arrested or something,

[30:06] Bob Dobbs: or killed,

[30:07] Bob Dobbs: or dumped into a homeless place,

[30:09] Bob Dobbs: and then he died.

[30:11] Bob Dobbs: That was a Menippean satirist.

[30:13] Bob Dobbs: So the kid said,

[30:15] Bob Dobbs: what?

[30:16] Bob Dobbs: You're talking about that bum?

[30:18] Bob Dobbs: It was a shock how

[30:21] Bob Dobbs: Eric defined it.

[30:22] Bob Dobbs: But it was useful to hear that.

[30:25] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[30:26] Bob Dobbs: why am I saying that?

[30:27] Bob Dobbs: What were you just saying that made me want to tell you that point?

[30:33] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[30:33] Bob Dobbs: so

[30:34] Bob Dobbs: I guess the art form,

[30:37] Bob Dobbs: the retrieval,

[30:39] Bob Dobbs: that's what the retrieval is.

[30:40] Bob Dobbs: You're a bum.

[30:43] Bob Dobbs: You're not interested in any civilized behavior.

[30:49] Cameron McEwen: That's one form that the retrieval takes.

[30:54] Cameron McEwen: Retrieval takes many different forms.

[30:57] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[30:57] Bob Dobbs: and retrievals are often obsolete.

[31:00] Bob Dobbs: They're better than the clichés,

[31:02] Bob Dobbs: but they aren't dealing with the present.

[31:05] Cameron McEwen: That's right,

[31:06] Cameron McEwen: and that shows the cyclic simultaneity of this.

[31:11] Cameron McEwen: The art forms purport to deal with the problem of the last word transforming into the cliché.

[31:22] Cameron McEwen: But the art form...

[31:23] Cameron McEwen: then becomes a form of the last word,

[31:27] Cameron McEwen: which transforms into cliché.

[31:30] Cameron McEwen: And so you have this dynamic going on.

[31:32] Bob Dobbs: And archetype.

[31:34] Bob Dobbs: You have to include the archetype.

[31:36] Cameron McEwen: The archetype is an attempt.

[31:39] Cameron McEwen: It too falls into that same hurdy-gurdy,

[31:45] Cameron McEwen: you could say,

[31:47] Cameron McEwen: because it attempts at a higher level to understand what's

[31:53] Cameron McEwen: going on on the trivial level.

[31:55] Cameron McEwen: But its understanding becomes one type of last word,

[32:01] Cameron McEwen: right?

[32:01] Cameron McEwen: And so it just goes into the cycle of archetype to last word to cliché,

[32:07] Cameron McEwen: to cliché to art form to archetype.

[32:10] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[32:10] Bob Dobbs: so by the 70s,

[32:11] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan is bypassing cliché and art form and saying from cliché to,

[32:17] Bob Dobbs: no,

[32:17] Bob Dobbs: bypassing last word and art form by saying from cliché to archetype.

[32:22] Bob Dobbs: It speeds up.

[32:23] Bob Dobbs: That's how I took the title.

[32:25] Bob Dobbs: But I didn't know that's what he meant until I saw that video five years later in 75,

[32:30] Bob Dobbs: where he talked about the turning over of this process,

[32:35] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[32:35] Bob Dobbs: every

[32:36] Bob Dobbs: 12 months.

[32:39] Bob Dobbs: So,

[32:40] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[32:40] Bob Dobbs: so then the last word,

[32:41] Bob Dobbs: the cliché,

[32:42] Bob Dobbs: and the art form,

[32:42] Bob Dobbs: and the art type all blur.

[32:45] Bob Dobbs: And then you get into maybe the Jeff Koons world,

[32:49] Bob Dobbs: where people put anything in the museum,

[32:52] Bob Dobbs: right?

[32:54] Bob Dobbs: And that's where people didn't like art anymore,

[32:58] Bob Dobbs: but they didn't know where to find value.

[33:01] Bob Dobbs: They were looking for value,

[33:03] Bob Dobbs: for an identity,

[33:04] Bob Dobbs: and a lot of the society went into the Bible,

[33:09] Bob Dobbs: went into fundamentalism,

[33:11] Bob Dobbs: across the planet.

[33:12] Bob Dobbs: The final archetype of identity was to retrieve religion,

[33:17] Bob Dobbs: which McLuhan said in that...

[33:20] Bob Dobbs: in

[33:21] Bob Dobbs: that dialogue with Muggeridge and Mailer and Fulford in

[33:24] Bob Dobbs: 68, the TV panel,

[33:27] Bob Dobbs: he says,

[33:28] Bob Dobbs: we're moving into a great religious age.

[33:31] Bob Dobbs: And that's what was happening.

[33:33] Bob Dobbs: People were going to hoik up all the old religions as protection,

[33:39] Bob Dobbs: as an identity,

[33:41] Bob Dobbs: and it wouldn't work.

[33:45] Bob Dobbs: And McLuhan knew it wouldn't work,

[33:46] Bob Dobbs: so he was trying to figure out how to save.

[33:50] Bob Dobbs: the Christian function,

[33:52] Bob Dobbs: but not falling for what everybody else thought was what you do to be a Christian.

[33:57] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[33:57] Cameron McEwen: So if you see through all of the ontologies,

[34:05] Cameron McEwen: then you have a kind of dynamic of ground.

[34:11] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[34:12] Cameron McEwen: All of that fits with what we're talking about,

[34:15] Cameron McEwen: because the ontologies are purported.

[34:19] Cameron McEwen: last words.

[34:21] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[34:21] Cameron McEwen: That's exactly what they are,

[34:23] Cameron McEwen: right?

[34:23] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[34:24] Cameron McEwen: As soon as you see that the ontologies are plural,

[34:30] Cameron McEwen: then they become a cliché.

[34:32] Cameron McEwen: Because the last word can never be plural.

[34:36] Cameron McEwen: It has to be singular.

[34:37] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[34:38] Cameron McEwen: Right?

[34:38] Bob Dobbs: It's your singularity.

[34:42] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[34:42] Cameron McEwen: So then what McLuhan is trying to do is he,

[34:46] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan is trying to show that

[34:49] Cameron McEwen: religion is not a singular last word.

[34:54] Cameron McEwen: It's what gets precipitated out of.

[34:58] Cameron McEwen: the dynamic of last words plural.

[35:02] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[35:04] Bob Dobbs: So you then,

[35:05] Bob Dobbs: if you fully get that,

[35:07] Bob Dobbs: you can't fit in anywheres.

[35:10] Bob Dobbs: You can disguise yourself and pretend you're fitting in,

[35:13] Bob Dobbs: but you actually are in a new,

[35:15] Bob Dobbs: you're in the silent sea.

[35:17] Bob Dobbs: And it's very hard for you to tell people what we're talking about.

[35:23] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[35:23] Cameron McEwen: That's the problem of all problems.

[35:26] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[35:26] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[35:27] Cameron McEwen: Because,

[35:27] Cameron McEwen: um,

[35:28] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan was very far from being the only person or the first person that saw this stuff.

[35:36] Cameron McEwen: But he was a person who took very seriously the problem of communicating.

[35:42] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[35:44] Cameron McEwen: And at least so far,

[35:48] Cameron McEwen: he also failed.

[35:49] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[35:51] Cameron McEwen: But he may have a future promise.

[35:54] Cameron McEwen: The reason that we're talking about him is that we don't think.

[35:58] Cameron McEwen: the last word has been said about McLuhan.

[36:01] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[36:02] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[36:03] Bob Dobbs: he was,

[36:05] Bob Dobbs: he had the virus more than anybody.

[36:08] Bob Dobbs: So we had to figure out what the virus was.

[36:10] Bob Dobbs: You had to understand McLuhan.

[36:16] Bob Dobbs: You get that?

[36:16] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[36:17] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[36:18] Bob Dobbs: virus means problem.

[36:19] Bob Dobbs: He really saw the problems that nobody knew how to talk about.

[36:25] Bob Dobbs: He did,

[36:26] Bob Dobbs: but nobody could believe it.

[36:29] Bob Dobbs: What he was saying is,

[36:30] Bob Dobbs: what was that,

[36:31] Bob Dobbs: that joke?

[36:33] Bob Dobbs: Doc,

[36:33] Bob Dobbs: your diagnosis is completely different from anybody else.

[36:37] Bob Dobbs: And then the doc says,

[36:38] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[36:39] Bob Dobbs: but the autopsy will bear me out.

[36:48] Bob Dobbs: It was great how McLuhan would find jokes that really expressed his situation.

[36:53] Bob Dobbs: He'd find really good jokes.

[36:57] Bob Dobbs: But what were you going to say?

[36:58] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[36:59] Cameron McEwen: I'm trying to find a way to say it.

[37:02] Cameron McEwen: I don't know that I would say that McLuhan had the virus.

[37:06] Cameron McEwen: I would say that

[37:08] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan found a way to see through the viruses,

[37:15] Cameron McEwen: but he wasn't able to communicate how he did it or why somebody should take the trouble to understand how he did it.

[37:30] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[37:30] Bob Dobbs: that's why in 68,

[37:31] Bob Dobbs: the new discovery of the 20th century was the Explorations of pain.

[37:35] Bob Dobbs: That's him knowing how to handle the virus.

[37:38] Bob Dobbs: It was painful,

[37:40] Bob Dobbs: and that was the new probing.

[37:42] Bob Dobbs: So he would say in interviews,

[37:44] Bob Dobbs: I'm not interested in being happy.

[37:46] Bob Dobbs: That's silly.

[37:47] Bob Dobbs: I'm not going to try to be happy.

[37:49] Bob Dobbs: I've got to deal with this issue,

[37:51] Bob Dobbs: which goes beyond those sentiments,

[37:53] Bob Dobbs: and I'm exploring pain.

[37:56] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[37:59] Cameron McEwen: Beginning especially just before 1960,

[38:05] Cameron McEwen: when he started to have blackouts,

[38:08] Cameron McEwen: when he started to realize that his health might not permit him to live to see what he wanted to achieve,

[38:24] Cameron McEwen: then,

[38:27] Cameron McEwen: as expressed,

[38:28] Cameron McEwen: in that,

[38:32] Cameron McEwen: was it prospect or project?

[38:34] Cameron McEwen: What was the essay in

[38:36] Cameron McEwen: 62 he did for the art magazine?

[38:39] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[38:40] Bob Dobbs: prospect.

[38:41] Cameron McEwen: Prospect,

[38:42] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[38:43] Cameron McEwen: So there's a lot of pain in that.

[38:45] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[38:45] Cameron McEwen: And really,

[38:48] Cameron McEwen: in the last two decades of his life,

[38:50] Cameron McEwen: when he was being serious,

[38:52] Cameron McEwen: which he wasn't always being,

[38:53] Cameron McEwen: of course,

[38:55] Cameron McEwen: then there's a marked...

[38:59] Cameron McEwen: sort of tone of pain to what he's talking about.

[39:05] Cameron McEwen: And of course,

[39:06] Cameron McEwen: for a religious person like

[39:09] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan, a Catholic,

[39:13] Cameron McEwen: pain is not something sort of aside from the ground of things.

[39:20] Cameron McEwen: It's that pain is built into the ground of things as a sort of a fundamental.

[39:27] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[39:28] Cameron McEwen: Discontinuity.

[39:30] Bob Dobbs: On the Medium is a Massage album,

[39:33] Bob Dobbs: someone says the medium is a message,

[39:35] Bob Dobbs: and McLuhan goes,

[39:36] Bob Dobbs: yay

[39:37] Bob Dobbs: A very unenthusiastic yay.

[39:40] Bob Dobbs: Do you know that part?

[39:42] Cameron McEwen: No.

[39:43] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[39:43] Bob Dobbs: you listen to it.

[39:44] Cameron McEwen: I've heard it,

[39:45] Cameron McEwen: but I just don't remember at the moment.

[39:47] Bob Dobbs: But,

[39:47] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[39:48] Bob Dobbs: he's just being friendly and phatic.

[39:50] Bob Dobbs: Like,

[39:51] Bob Dobbs: he's in pain.

[39:52] Bob Dobbs: There's nothing to be going yay about.

[39:54] Bob Dobbs: But he can't be bothered to explain it to them.

[39:59] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[39:59] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[40:01] Cameron McEwen: he knows that people are adopting and adapting his language,

[40:07] Cameron McEwen: but in a way that doesn't work.

[40:09] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[40:10] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[40:10] Cameron McEwen: And that's.

[40:11] Cameron McEwen: That's a painful realization itself.

[40:14] Bob Dobbs: It's pretty alienating,

[40:15] Bob Dobbs: I assume,

[40:16] Bob Dobbs: to be that isolated.

[40:19] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.

[40:22] Bob Dobbs: I think he has an interior landscape.

[40:23] Bob Dobbs: He talks about Baudelaire having great humility before the problem that he was seeing,

[40:31] Bob Dobbs: as an early poet,

[40:33] Bob Dobbs: Menippean,

[40:34] Bob Dobbs: whatever he was,

[40:36] Bob Dobbs: exploring the urban landscapes,

[40:39] Bob Dobbs: the new nature.

[40:40] Bob Dobbs: But it's very important the way he Wright.

[40:42] Bob Dobbs: He's saying Baudelaire explored his pain with great humility.

[40:46] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[40:47] Cameron McEwen: That's interesting.

[40:48] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[40:48] Cameron McEwen: that's a wonderful phrase.

[40:50] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[40:51] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[40:52] Bob Dobbs: And I knew that,

[40:52] Bob Dobbs: and that's what McLuhan did.

[40:55] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[40:56] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.

[40:56] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[40:57] Cameron McEwen: And if we ask,

[41:00] Cameron McEwen: what does humility mean in that context?

[41:03] Cameron McEwen: One of the things it means is allowing the pain to be pain.

[41:08] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[41:09] Cameron McEwen: Not trying Trump it,

[41:11] Cameron McEwen: not trying to put it in your pocket,

[41:15] Cameron McEwen: allowing yourself to be smaller than it.

[41:22] Cameron McEwen: That's the humility before pain.

[41:25] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[41:25] Bob Dobbs: there's a great respect for it.

[41:27] Bob Dobbs: Like,

[41:27] Bob Dobbs: you've actually broken into the silent sea.

[41:30] Bob Dobbs: It's not a smug silence,

[41:32] Bob Dobbs: it's a painful silence.

[41:33] Bob Dobbs: It's like,

[41:34] Bob Dobbs: holy shit,

[41:35] Bob Dobbs: we've got a big problem here,

[41:37] Cameron McEwen: you know?

[41:37] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.

[41:38] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[41:41] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[41:42] Bob Dobbs: And

[41:44] Bob Dobbs: I would say a lot of my life was dealing with that.

[41:48] Bob Dobbs: Don't know.

[41:48] Bob Dobbs: I can't say

[41:49] Bob Dobbs: I saw it more intensely than you.

[41:51] Bob Dobbs: I can't compare myself.

[41:52] Bob Dobbs: But I knew I saw the issue because I found that nobody was talking about it correctly,

[42:01] Bob Dobbs: even around the McLuhan scene.

[42:05] Cameron McEwen: Yes,

[42:05] Cameron McEwen: I think I understand what you're talking about.

[42:10] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if you had it in the

[42:12] Bob Dobbs: 1970s, but you've got it now.

[42:15] Bob Dobbs: You got there.

[42:17] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[42:17] Cameron McEwen: I was going to talk about a time earlier than that.

[42:20] Cameron McEwen: In 1965,

[42:23] Cameron McEwen: my junior year advisor was T.S.

[42:26] Cameron McEwen: Kuhn,

[42:26] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[42:27] Cameron McEwen: a structure of scientific revolution.

[42:29] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[42:29] Cameron McEwen: important.

[42:31] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[42:31] Cameron McEwen: and I remember talking to him about...

[42:37] Cameron McEwen: how I thought it was important,

[42:40] Cameron McEwen: even for science,

[42:42] Cameron McEwen: to recognize a kind of shadow,

[42:48] Cameron McEwen: a kind of darkness that is present in scientific discovery.

[42:52] Cameron McEwen: And I didn't really know what I was talking about.

[42:56] Cameron McEwen: I was talking about something that I wanted to kind of research or something.

[43:02] Bob Dobbs: Where did you get the notion that there was such a thing?

[43:07] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[43:07] Cameron McEwen: I was very interested in those days in

[43:12] Cameron McEwen: Nietzsche, in

[43:15] Cameron McEwen: Camus' book,

[43:17] Cameron McEwen: The Fall,

[43:17] Cameron McEwen: La Chute.

[43:20] Cameron McEwen: And

[43:21] Cameron McEwen: I just,

[43:21] Cameron McEwen: I had the notion that

[43:25] Cameron McEwen: I was kind of dislocated from the truisms that I had.

[43:35] Cameron McEwen: grown up with before then.

[43:38] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[43:38] Bob Dobbs: so it's like you wanted to do a thesis on darkness,

[43:43] Bob Dobbs: beyond academia,

[43:45] Bob Dobbs: beyond what academics would think would be a range of stuff that a student would be interested in.

[43:51] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.

[43:52] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[43:52] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.

[43:53] Cameron McEwen: But not that I had any great insight.

[43:57] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[43:58] Cameron McEwen: It was just a numb feeling that something was not...

[44:04] Cameron McEwen: being attended to in the world,

[44:08] Cameron McEwen: but also in my own self.

[44:10] Cameron McEwen: And if I didn't figure out how to deal with that,

[44:15] Cameron McEwen: then I,

[44:16] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[44:16] Cameron McEwen: would be screwed.

[44:17] Cameron McEwen: I wouldn't have direction.

[44:19] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[44:20] Bob Dobbs: So what did Kuhn say?

[44:23] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[44:23] Cameron McEwen: he just sort of dismissed it.

[44:28] Cameron McEwen: He wasn't,

[44:30] Cameron McEwen: I think,

[44:32] Cameron McEwen: he probably thought,

[44:33] Cameron McEwen: but I was too immature.

[44:36] Cameron McEwen: I was,

[44:37] Cameron McEwen: what,

[44:37] Cameron McEwen: 18 or 19?

[44:38] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[44:39] Bob Dobbs: you heard some older guy saying it.

[44:42] Bob Dobbs: You were imitating some older guy or something.

[44:44] Cameron McEwen: Maybe.

[44:45] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[44:45] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[44:46] Cameron McEwen: so...

[44:52] Cameron McEwen: He was kind enough to say,

[44:54] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[44:54] Cameron McEwen: can you explain some of that and sort of to listen for a while.

[44:59] Cameron McEwen: But then he just got tired of,

[45:02] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[45:03] Cameron McEwen: hearing a junior in college talk about stuff that he knew was much more complicated than I had any awareness of.

[45:13] Bob Dobbs: So you didn't do the paper?

[45:15] Bob Dobbs: Like,

[45:15] Bob Dobbs: what did you do?

[45:19] Bob Dobbs: um no i um you ended up at McLuhan in 1970 or so 69 sure but that was just that was all part of i didn't let the problem uh go and

[45:34] Bob Dobbs: um you could say i'm still gnawing away at it to this day yeah but you but you were asking to have an acceptable mess or ba or whatever the hell you call the thesis did you do one

[45:48] Bob Dobbs: at Princeton.

[45:49] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[45:50] Cameron McEwen: I wrote my thesis on Nietzsche.

[45:52] Bob Dobbs: So you did do it.

[45:54] Cameron McEwen: And so basic,

[45:57] Cameron McEwen: my thesis just doesn't come to a conclusion.

[46:02] Cameron McEwen: It just says that this is the question.

[46:06] Cameron McEwen: What we have been calling the cul-de-sac,

[46:09] Cameron McEwen: I've been,

[46:10] Cameron McEwen: I was conscious of then,

[46:11] Cameron McEwen: that would have been 1965,

[46:15] Cameron McEwen: and so So...

[46:18] Cameron McEwen: Here we are 55 years later.

[46:20] Cameron McEwen: Right,

[46:21] Bob Dobbs: but you went to McLuhan,

[46:23] Bob Dobbs: and he didn't seem to understand your thesis,

[46:26] Bob Dobbs: your theme,

[46:27] Bob Dobbs: right?

[46:28] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[46:28] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.

[46:29] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[46:31] Cameron McEwen: either he didn't understand it or he understood it too well.

[46:36] Cameron McEwen: He may have thought,

[46:38] Cameron McEwen: well,

[46:38] Cameron McEwen: this guy's,

[46:39] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[46:41] Cameron McEwen: completely book-oriented,

[46:43] Cameron McEwen: a conceptualist.

[46:44] Cameron McEwen: I don't want to have anything to do with him.

[46:46] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[46:47] Cameron McEwen: But McLuhan in those days,

[46:49] Cameron McEwen: he was still suffering from the sequelae of his operation.

[46:55] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[46:56] Cameron McEwen: And he was famous for taking either an instant like or dislike to people.

[47:04] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[47:04] Cameron McEwen: And in my case,

[47:06] Cameron McEwen: I just thought,

[47:07] Cameron McEwen: well,

[47:07] Cameron McEwen: he's not listening to me.

[47:09] Cameron McEwen: He's not interested in me.

[47:12] Cameron McEwen: And I'm certainly not interested in the stuff that he's doing.

[47:16] Cameron McEwen: in the seminars I attended.

[47:18] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[47:18] Cameron McEwen: And so I just took my leave.

[47:22] Bob Dobbs: So where did you go?

[47:23] Bob Dobbs: Where did that lead to?

[47:24] Bob Dobbs: Did you go do postgraduate somewhere?

[47:29] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[47:29] Cameron McEwen: I went to,

[47:30] Cameron McEwen: I ended up going to the University of Alberta and I did that because

[47:35] Cameron McEwen: University of Alberta in those days,

[47:37] Cameron McEwen: I don't know if it's still true,

[47:40] Cameron McEwen: had year-long courses in individual thinkers.

[47:46] Cameron McEwen: And I was really attracted to that.

[47:48] Bob Dobbs: So did you run into Sheila Watson?

[47:51] Cameron McEwen: I didn't run into her,

[47:52] Cameron McEwen: but,

[47:53] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[47:53] Cameron McEwen: people were talking about her.

[47:55] Cameron McEwen: I had friends in the English department.

[47:59] Cameron McEwen: But

[48:00] Cameron McEwen: I don't think I really knew in those days what she was doing with McLuhan.

[48:06] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[48:07] Bob Dobbs: Did you know about Wyndham Lewis,

[48:08] Bob Dobbs: stuff like that?

[48:10] Cameron McEwen: No,

[48:10] Cameron McEwen: at that time,

[48:11] Cameron McEwen: no.

[48:11] Cameron McEwen: Hello,

[48:12] Cameron McEwen: I...

[48:13] Cameron McEwen: I had actually been given Time and Western Man as a present,

[48:19] Cameron McEwen: but I had never read it.

[48:21] Bob Dobbs: So how many years was that out in Alberta,

[48:24] Bob Dobbs: five years?

[48:25] Cameron McEwen: No,

[48:26] Cameron McEwen: I got a Canada Council scholarship in my second year to study in Germany.

[48:32] Cameron McEwen: And so

[48:34] Cameron McEwen: I went over and studied in Germany.

[48:35] Cameron McEwen: And then

[48:37] Cameron McEwen: I had started my PhD at Alberta,

[48:40] Cameron McEwen: but

[48:41] Cameron McEwen: I never went.

[48:43] Cameron McEwen: back to finish it.

[48:44] Bob Dobbs: So in Germany you were able to get the original text of Nietzsche and Everybody,

[48:51] Bob Dobbs: the European continental thinking?

[48:54] Cameron McEwen: How do you mean get?

[48:55] Cameron McEwen: You mean get the books?

[48:56] Cameron McEwen: If you start studying,

[48:59] Bob Dobbs: have classes in it and study it.

[49:02] Cameron McEwen: Yes,

[49:03] Cameron McEwen: but really my

[49:07] Cameron McEwen: I didn't know any German when I first went there and so for the

[49:12] Cameron McEwen: For the first year,

[49:14] Cameron McEwen: all I was doing was learning basic German.

[49:17] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[49:17] Cameron McEwen: And

[49:18] Cameron McEwen: I didn't know

[49:20] Cameron McEwen: German well enough to really understand the great German writers for another 20 years after that.

[49:30] Bob Dobbs: You did eventually get to know German well enough to do that.

[49:34] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[49:34] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[49:35] Bob Dobbs: So what did you do,

[49:37] Bob Dobbs: say,

[49:37] Bob Dobbs: from 75 to

[49:39] Bob Dobbs: 90?

[49:41] Cameron McEwen: I was an entrepreneur.

[49:44] Cameron McEwen: In what?

[49:45] Cameron McEwen: I was developing a small business.

[49:48] Cameron McEwen: I had a software company in

[49:53] Cameron McEwen: Los Angeles when small computers were first coming out.

[50:02] Bob Dobbs: So you got into the computer world?

[50:05] Cameron McEwen: Yes,

[50:07] Cameron McEwen: but stupidly,

[50:09] Cameron McEwen: I didn't become a multi-millionaire in the process.

[50:16] Cameron McEwen: I remember very well when

[50:18] Cameron McEwen: Microsoft was,

[50:23] Cameron McEwen: when the shares of Microsoft were first floated and they came out at $29.

[50:28] Cameron McEwen: And myself and all my brilliant friends thought that that was ridiculously overvalued.

[50:34] Cameron McEwen: But if we bought 100 of the things then and held them,

[50:39] Cameron McEwen: we'd be multimillionaires now.

[50:42] Bob Dobbs: That was stupid.

[50:43] Bob Dobbs: But were you in the States because you had married the American?

[50:48] Cameron McEwen: No,

[50:48] Cameron McEwen: I was in the States because my parents had retired to

[50:55] Cameron McEwen: Palm Springs,

[50:57] Cameron McEwen: and then my father got sick,

[51:02] Cameron McEwen: and I was the only one of our kids that didn't have a job with a fixed abode.

[51:11] Cameron McEwen: So I was able to come down here then.

[51:14] Bob Dobbs: So how were you able to stay there without a visa and all that?

[51:20] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[51:20] Cameron McEwen: my parents had become dual citizens.

[51:24] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[51:25] Bob Dobbs: okay.

[51:25] Cameron McEwen: And so

[51:26] Cameron McEwen: I was able to get my green card automatically.

[51:30] Bob Dobbs: So you were in California in the glory days,

[51:33] Bob Dobbs: 70s and early

[51:34] Cameron McEwen: 80s. Yes,

[51:35] Cameron McEwen: sir.

[51:36] Bob Dobbs: Was that neat?

[51:37] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[51:37] Cameron McEwen: it was neat.

[51:38] Cameron McEwen: It was being in...

[51:40] Cameron McEwen: Los Angeles in the

[51:43] Cameron McEwen: 70s and early

[51:44] Cameron McEwen: 80s was a great experience.

[51:47] Bob Dobbs: I was doing it all the time.

[51:48] Bob Dobbs: We were always there.

[51:49] Bob Dobbs: And you know who else was always there?

[51:51] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan visiting Mary.

[51:53] Cameron McEwen: You mentioned that before.

[51:55] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[51:55] Bob Dobbs: he would get there,

[51:56] Bob Dobbs: try to get there as much as possible because of the excitement of the place.

[52:02] Bob Dobbs: And he would make up bullshit like,

[52:05] Bob Dobbs: I got to go do a lecture,

[52:06] Bob Dobbs: but he wasn't doing one.

[52:07] Bob Dobbs: He just wanted to get into the

[52:09] Bob Dobbs: Anti-environment.

[52:10] Bob Dobbs: and meet people.

[52:11] Bob Dobbs: And that's how he met

[52:13] Bob Dobbs: David whatever,

[52:14] Bob Dobbs: the guy who did the final,

[52:16] Bob Dobbs: tried to do the final TV series with him.

[52:18] Bob Dobbs: Forget his last name.

[52:19] Bob Dobbs: He lives here in Maui.

[52:21] Bob Dobbs: Greenberg,

[52:21] Bob Dobbs: David Greenberg.

[52:22] Cameron McEwen: Greenberg,

[52:22] Cameron McEwen: I was going to say.

[52:23] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[52:24] Bob Dobbs: But the,

[52:26] Bob Dobbs: see,

[52:26] Bob Dobbs: L.A.

[52:26] Bob Dobbs: had,

[52:27] Bob Dobbs: L.A.

[52:28] Bob Dobbs: was more vibrant than New York in that period.

[52:31] Bob Dobbs: And that's why it's in the Kroker quadrant,

[52:33] Bob Dobbs: Lemurian quadrant on my chart.

[52:36] Bob Dobbs: It's the beginning of the virtual society.

[52:40] Bob Dobbs: And the excitement of that.

[52:45] Bob Dobbs: So,

[52:46] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[52:46] Bob Dobbs: that was all delusion.

[52:47] Bob Dobbs: But it was no doubt everybody was moving to L.A.

[52:51] Bob Dobbs: And the movie that Marshall was in,

[52:53] Bob Dobbs: Annie Hall,

[52:54] Bob Dobbs: was about that.

[52:55] Bob Dobbs: That's what the movie was about.

[52:57] Bob Dobbs: L.A.

[52:57] Bob Dobbs: versus New York.

[52:59] Bob Dobbs: Woody Allen,

[53:00] Bob Dobbs: the book guy,

[53:00] Bob Dobbs: versus Tim Leary.

[53:02] Bob Dobbs: And Leary wrote about it.

[53:04] Bob Dobbs: In his books,

[53:05] Bob Dobbs: after he got out of jail in 76,

[53:07] Bob Dobbs: he said,

[53:07] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[53:08] Bob Dobbs: I ain't no Woody Allen.

[53:09] Bob Dobbs: Woody Allen's the New York fuddy-duddy.

[53:12] Bob Dobbs: And I'm,

[53:12] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[53:13] Bob Dobbs: all-at-onceness,

[53:14] Bob Dobbs: multi-leveled shaman.

[53:16] Bob Dobbs: And then he became very popular with Jack Nicholson and everybody.

[53:22] Bob Dobbs: And Mary was in the middle of that scene.

[53:24] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[53:27] Cameron McEwen: well,

[53:30] Cameron McEwen: that was also the years of the birth of punk.

[53:34] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[53:34] Cameron McEwen: And the...

[53:38] Cameron McEwen: Everything that was going on was sort of a commentary on what else was going on.

[53:43] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[53:44] Bob Dobbs: Everything was meta,

[53:46] Cameron McEwen: Yes.

[53:48] Bob Dobbs: So did you go to Venice Beach or Santa Monica?

[53:51] Bob Dobbs: We might have walked by each other?

[53:54] Cameron McEwen: That's possible.

[53:55] Cameron McEwen: That's possible.

[53:56] Cameron McEwen: Sure.

[53:57] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[53:57] Cameron McEwen: in those days,

[53:58] Cameron McEwen: it was still possible to take a car across Los Angeles.

[54:03] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[54:04] Cameron McEwen: It's no longer possible.

[54:07] Cameron McEwen: Everything's all jammed up.

[54:09] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[54:09] Cameron McEwen: But,

[54:11] Cameron McEwen: yeah,

[54:13] Cameron McEwen: I never lived in

[54:15] Cameron McEwen: Santa Monica or

[54:17] Cameron McEwen: Venice, but at one time

[54:20] Cameron McEwen: I explored the possibility of living in Santa Monica.

[54:24] Cameron McEwen: I thought that would be neat,

[54:26] Cameron McEwen: but I couldn't find a place that would work financially.

[54:31] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[54:31] Bob Dobbs: So where did you live?

[54:32] Bob Dobbs: What part?

[54:34] Cameron McEwen: I lived in Los Feliz.

[54:36] Cameron McEwen: And then later I lived in the fringe of Beverly Hills.

[54:43] Bob Dobbs: You mean Westwood?

[54:45] Cameron McEwen: No,

[54:45] Cameron McEwen: the other direction.

[54:47] Bob Dobbs: Echo Park,

[54:47] Bob Dobbs: is it?

[54:48] Cameron McEwen: On the east.

[54:50] Cameron McEwen: Silver Lake?

[54:53] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[54:54] Cameron McEwen: those are all great districts,

[54:55] Cameron McEwen: but they're not near to

[54:57] Cameron McEwen: Beverly Hills.

[54:58] Bob Dobbs: So what's in between

[55:01] Bob Dobbs: Beverly Hills and Silver Lake?

[55:04] Bob Dobbs: Los Angeles.

[55:04] Cameron McEwen: Los Angeles.

[55:06] Bob Dobbs: No,

[55:07] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[55:08] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[55:09] Cameron McEwen: Beverly Hills is its own little town,

[55:11] Cameron McEwen: right?

[55:11] Cameron McEwen: You know,

[55:11] Cameron McEwen: there's satellite towns all over the place.

[55:13] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[55:14] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[55:14] Cameron McEwen: Silver Lake is part of Los Angeles,

[55:19] Cameron McEwen: so it's not an independent place.

[55:21] Cameron McEwen: But

[55:22] Cameron McEwen: BH is probably,

[55:25] Cameron McEwen: I don't know,

[55:26] Cameron McEwen: 15 miles maybe from Silver Lake.

[55:31] Cameron McEwen: And it's all Los Angeles.

[55:32] Cameron McEwen: It's all...

[55:34] Bob Dobbs: That goes down into what?

[55:36] Cameron McEwen: Midtown.

[55:38] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[55:39] Cameron McEwen: that's to the south.

[55:41] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[55:42] Cameron McEwen: If you go...

[55:43] Cameron McEwen: If you go west from

[55:46] Cameron McEwen: Beverly Hills,

[55:48] Cameron McEwen: you go into West Hollywood,

[55:49] Cameron McEwen: you go into Fairfax,

[55:52] Cameron McEwen: you go into

[55:54] Cameron McEwen: Midwilshire, you go into Koreatown.

[55:57] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[55:57] Bob Dobbs: I know Fairfax.

[55:59] Bob Dobbs: That's where Dave Worcester lived.

[56:00] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[56:02] Bob Dobbs: We would go over to Fairfax.

[56:07] Bob Dobbs: So what did you do?

[56:08] Bob Dobbs: What was your social world?

[56:12] Bob Dobbs: Your business life?

[56:16] Cameron McEwen: I guess so,

[56:17] Cameron McEwen: but

[56:19] Cameron McEwen: I was always doing what I consider my work,

[56:24] Cameron McEwen: trying to articulate what the cul-de-sac is and how it's possible to extricate ourselves out of it.

[56:35] Cameron McEwen: So

[56:37] Cameron McEwen: I've been working on that problem for 55 or

[56:41] Cameron McEwen: 60 years.

[56:42] Cameron McEwen: And it was always my main business.

[56:50] Cameron McEwen: What I was doing to earn money was always secondary.

[56:55] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[56:55] Bob Dobbs: did you go back to school at any point in the 80s and early

[56:59] Bob Dobbs: 90s?

[57:04] Cameron McEwen: Yeah, in the mid-80s,

[57:07] Cameron McEwen: I went back to

[57:09] Cameron McEwen: Loyola, Chicago,

[57:11] Cameron McEwen: briefly.

[57:13] Cameron McEwen: Because they had,

[57:16] Cameron McEwen: John Salas was there,

[57:17] Cameron McEwen: who is a leading academic interpreter of continental philosophy,

[57:26] Cameron McEwen: especially of Heidegger.

[57:28] Cameron McEwen: And so

[57:29] Cameron McEwen: I wanted to study

[57:32] Cameron McEwen: Heidegger with John,

[57:34] Cameron McEwen: and I did.

[57:36] Cameron McEwen: But

[57:38] Cameron McEwen: I really couldn't breathe in an academic.

[57:42] Bob Dobbs: atmosphere so i gave that up so you that's when you lived in chicago with your wife right yes well i went from uh la over to um chicago and um actually

[57:58] Cameron McEwen: i was living in chicago where i met my wife yeah then you end up back in california eventually yeah well with a detour we lived not far from

[58:09] Cameron McEwen: Princeton for

[58:12] Cameron McEwen: almost 15 years in the middle of New Jersey.

[58:16] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[58:17] Bob Dobbs: that's when we met you at the end of that period,

[58:20] Bob Dobbs: 98.

[58:20] Bob Dobbs: Correct,

[58:21] Cameron McEwen: correct.

[58:22] Cameron McEwen: And then back to Chicago briefly,

[58:25] Cameron McEwen: and then back to L.A.

[58:27] Cameron McEwen: So I sort of did a circuit,

[58:29] Cameron McEwen: L.A.,

[58:29] Cameron McEwen: Chicago,

[58:30] Cameron McEwen: New York,

[58:31] Cameron McEwen: Chicago,

[58:32] Cameron McEwen: L.A.

[58:33] Bob Dobbs: And if Sanderson had worked out,

[58:35] Bob Dobbs: that would have been a whole new world for you.

[58:37] Bob Dobbs: You would have got somewhere at that level with his project,

[58:41] Bob Dobbs: right?

[58:44] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[58:44] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[58:46] Cameron McEwen: I think

[58:47] Cameron McEwen: I have at least partially fulfilled that project.

[58:53] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[58:57] Cameron McEwen: We don't have proper digital access to all of McLuhan stuff,

[59:03] Cameron McEwen: which in my mind should include his papers in Ottawa.

[59:08] Cameron McEwen: But

[59:11] Cameron McEwen: I've spent...

[59:13] Cameron McEwen: but a decade trying to explicate different aspects of his work.

[59:21] Cameron McEwen: And

[59:23] Cameron McEwen: I'm pretty sure that in the future,

[59:26] Cameron McEwen: a lot of PhDs will start with stuff that I've exposed in my blog,

[59:33] Cameron McEwen: and then they'll do a whole thesis on that topic.

[59:38] Bob Dobbs: So when did you get into the digital company that...

[59:42] Bob Dobbs: you and George were going to do the McLuhan thing within.

[59:48] Cameron McEwen: That would have been in the 90s.

[59:52] Cameron McEwen: Mid-90s?

[59:52] Cameron McEwen: In the mid-90s,

[59:53] Cameron McEwen: yeah.

[59:54] Cameron McEwen: And then,

[59:54] Cameron McEwen: so I did that for

[59:56] Cameron McEwen: 15 or so years,

[59:59] Cameron McEwen: and

[1:00:00] Cameron McEwen: I still own part of that company,

[1:00:04] Cameron McEwen: but

[1:00:05] Cameron McEwen: I'm retired from active work in it.

[1:00:09] Bob Dobbs: You own part of the company?

[1:00:12] Bob Dobbs: Was George an owner?

[1:00:14] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:00:14] Cameron McEwen: no.

[1:00:16] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:00:17] Bob Dobbs: so here's the big news.

[1:00:18] Bob Dobbs: I have some big news.

[1:00:19] Bob Dobbs: I just found out this today.

[1:00:22] Bob Dobbs: Clinton told me that starting on Saturday,

[1:00:26] Bob Dobbs: Andrew at the McLuhan Institute,

[1:00:28] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:00:28] Bob Dobbs: the grandson,

[1:00:31] Bob Dobbs: he found a stash of tapes that Eric hid from everybody of all the Monday night seminars starting around 1972.

[1:00:40] Cameron McEwen: Wow.

[1:00:40] Bob Dobbs: And he's going to start playing them every Saturday night.

[1:00:44] Cameron McEwen: Okay,

[1:00:45] Cameron McEwen: good.

[1:00:45] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:00:46] Bob Dobbs: That'll be interesting.

[1:00:47] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:00:48] Bob Dobbs: And

[1:00:49] Bob Dobbs: I was the most regular attender of it all.

[1:00:51] Bob Dobbs: It's going to be interesting for me what I remember,

[1:00:54] Bob Dobbs: what I hear.

[1:00:55] Bob Dobbs: You know what I mean?

[1:00:56] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:00:58] Cameron McEwen: it'll be interesting to know just how chaotic the recordings are.

[1:01:04] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:01:05] Cameron McEwen: Or,

[1:01:05] Bob Dobbs: no,

[1:01:06] Bob Dobbs: you mean the content.

[1:01:08] Cameron McEwen: No,

[1:01:08] Cameron McEwen: no,

[1:01:08] Cameron McEwen: I mean the recordings themselves.

[1:01:11] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:01:11] Cameron McEwen: I...

[1:01:13] Cameron McEwen: If the...

[1:01:14] Cameron McEwen: If...

[1:01:16] Cameron McEwen: If there were transcriptions,

[1:01:19] Cameron McEwen: to my way of thinking,

[1:01:21] Cameron McEwen: that would give a better sort of grasp into the recordings themselves rather than the other way around.

[1:01:33] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:01:33] Bob Dobbs: but I want to hear McLuhan,

[1:01:35] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:01:35] Bob Dobbs: his voice and argue with Franks and Zingrone and all the regular people there.

[1:01:39] Bob Dobbs: They didn't have a clue what he was talking about.

[1:01:41] Bob Dobbs: It was going to be funny.

[1:01:43] Cameron McEwen: That's right,

[1:01:44] Cameron McEwen: but you're going to have to wade.

[1:01:45] Cameron McEwen: through a tremendous amount of dreck.

[1:01:48] Bob Dobbs: I've done that too.

[1:01:50] Bob Dobbs: I've dealt with the pain of that for years.

[1:01:56] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:01:57] Bob Dobbs: it seemed the humility of the pain,

[1:02:00] Bob Dobbs: that's why I was so patient on the radio.

[1:02:04] Bob Dobbs: I was known as a very patient person who would listen to idiots for a long time and not seem to be bothered because I didn't have a point of view.

[1:02:13] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[1:02:14] Bob Dobbs: I didn't have something to defend.

[1:02:16] Bob Dobbs: I was really saying,

[1:02:17] Bob Dobbs: okay,

[1:02:18] Bob Dobbs: let's hear what people say about what they think is going on.

[1:02:20] Bob Dobbs: That was my laboratory.

[1:02:22] Cameron McEwen: Sure,

[1:02:23] Cameron McEwen: sure.

[1:02:23] Cameron McEwen: That's what we were talking about earlier,

[1:02:25] Cameron McEwen: actually.

[1:02:27] Cameron McEwen: If you don't have an investment in ideas,

[1:02:35] Cameron McEwen: then you can relate to anything and you can analyze anything.

[1:02:40] Cameron McEwen: But the great trick is when...

[1:02:44] Cameron McEwen: People lose their grasp.

[1:02:47] Cameron McEwen: In most cases,

[1:02:48] Cameron McEwen: that feels threatening.

[1:02:51] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:02:51] Cameron McEwen: People,

[1:02:53] Cameron McEwen: the whole trick is to find identity in instability.

[1:02:59] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:03:01] Bob Dobbs: And I don't know what enables a person to do that.

[1:03:08] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if it can be taught.

[1:03:11] Bob Dobbs: Maybe it can be an example.

[1:03:14] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:03:16] Cameron McEwen: in our conversations,

[1:03:17] Cameron McEwen: that's what I've said is the great problem of the tradition.

[1:03:23] Cameron McEwen: And

[1:03:24] Cameron McEwen: Plato already knew about it.

[1:03:25] Cameron McEwen: That's the whole problem of dialectic.

[1:03:30] Cameron McEwen: The problem of dialectic isn't dialectical.

[1:03:34] Cameron McEwen: The problem of a dialectic is to lead somebody from one set of ideas that they...

[1:03:44] Cameron McEwen: are accustomed to into a new set of ideas.

[1:03:50] Cameron McEwen: And in between that is a gap.

[1:03:53] Cameron McEwen: And how to navigate the gap is the great question.

[1:03:58] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:03:59] Bob Dobbs: So let's look at this quote here.

[1:04:02] Bob Dobbs: Important quote on page 190,

[1:04:04] Bob Dobbs: the last page of

[1:04:06] Bob Dobbs: War and Peace in the Global Village.

[1:04:08] Bob Dobbs: And so

[1:04:10] Bob Dobbs: I think I said what I wanted to say about...

[1:04:14] Bob Dobbs: the interaction of the last word cliché to archetype i think we've done that yeah and um that's something that nobody points out you know there's no McLuhan scholar laid out those four things i don't know did you do it somewheres no i said no not like that yeah so

[1:04:33] Bob Dobbs: that's i think

[1:04:35] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:04:35] Cameron McEwen: I think that's an interesting way to look at what was going on with McLuhan.

[1:04:41] Cameron McEwen: I'm trying to,

[1:04:42] Cameron McEwen: at the moment,

[1:04:43] Cameron McEwen: I'm trying to show how he was faced with this kind of transition in,

[1:04:53] Cameron McEwen: let's say,

[1:04:53] Cameron McEwen: 1952,

[1:04:56] Cameron McEwen: in that era,

[1:04:56] Cameron McEwen: 51 to 53,

[1:04:59] Cameron McEwen: when he was seeing through.

[1:05:05] Cameron McEwen: the literary mindset and realizing that that was limited and that he himself had been limited and so he was trying to feel his way into something

[1:05:20] Bob Dobbs: different yeah that's of course that's where he saw through pound that was the big change that was a big influence for him interacting with pound oh absolutely but i don't think he saw when you say saw through

[1:05:35] Cameron McEwen: Do you mean saw limitations in Pound?

[1:05:37] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:05:38] Bob Dobbs: what you were just saying,

[1:05:40] Bob Dobbs: how he saw the limitations in the Gutenberg Galaxy,

[1:05:44] Bob Dobbs: Pound was the figure for him to discover that through.

[1:05:50] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:05:51] Cameron McEwen: I'd have to think about that,

[1:05:52] Cameron McEwen: but off the top of my head,

[1:05:54] Cameron McEwen: I would disagree.

[1:05:57] Cameron McEwen: I think

[1:05:58] Cameron McEwen: Pound was a positive influence at that time.

[1:06:03] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:06:04] Bob Dobbs: I'm saying it was a dramatic,

[1:06:07] Bob Dobbs: he wouldn't have become mature if he hadn't have met Pound.

[1:06:11] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[1:06:11] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.

[1:06:12] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.

[1:06:13] Cameron McEwen: But aren't you saying that he had to go beyond that influence?

[1:06:20] Cameron McEwen: He had to see through

[1:06:24] Cameron McEwen: Pound, taking a see-through in a negative fashion?

[1:06:28] Cameron McEwen: Or are you saying see-through in a positive fashion where...

[1:06:32] Cameron McEwen: he would be sort of putting pound on.

[1:06:39] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:06:40] Bob Dobbs: he says it in his letter to pound.

[1:06:41] Bob Dobbs: I think it's the June 52 letter where he says,

[1:06:46] Bob Dobbs: you guys,

[1:06:47] Bob Dobbs: the men of 1914,

[1:06:49] Bob Dobbs: were dealing with the power of words.

[1:06:53] Bob Dobbs: But I'm dealing with a time where the word now is a drug.

[1:06:57] Bob Dobbs: See,

[1:06:58] Bob Dobbs: very different situation.

[1:07:00] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:07:00] Bob Dobbs: he knew the new...

[1:07:04] Cameron McEwen: I'm sorry,

[1:07:05] Cameron McEwen: I shouldn't have interrupted.

[1:07:06] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:07:06] Bob Dobbs: no,

[1:07:07] Bob Dobbs: you said you think that's a...

[1:07:09] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:07:10] Cameron McEwen: I think that's one of the 51 letters.

[1:07:13] Cameron McEwen: And then in 52,

[1:07:15] Cameron McEwen: what he says to Pound is that,

[1:07:17] Cameron McEwen: look,

[1:07:18] Cameron McEwen: you and Yates and Joyce and Elliot have been using these liturgies to shape your artwork,

[1:07:30] Cameron McEwen: and

[1:07:31] Cameron McEwen: I didn't know this before.

[1:07:33] Cameron McEwen: And it kind of pisses me off that I didn't.

[1:07:38] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:07:39] Bob Dobbs: I think,

[1:07:40] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[1:07:40] Bob Dobbs: he,

[1:07:41] Bob Dobbs: I think I'm quoting June

[1:07:43] Bob Dobbs: 22nd, 52,

[1:07:44] Bob Dobbs: and you're quoting another part of 52 where he's,

[1:07:47] Bob Dobbs: it's on page 234 in the letters book.

[1:07:51] Bob Dobbs: He's saying,

[1:07:52] Bob Dobbs: why didn't you guys tell me this stuff?

[1:07:54] Bob Dobbs: And no critics should know it.

[1:07:56] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:07:56] Bob Dobbs: there was that secret society theme that he was working out.

[1:08:01] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:08:02] Bob Dobbs: On the theme of words,

[1:08:05] Bob Dobbs: I think that's in June

[1:08:07] Bob Dobbs: 22nd, 52.

[1:08:08] Bob Dobbs: Maybe 51.

[1:08:10] Bob Dobbs: I can't remember.

[1:08:13] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:08:13] Cameron McEwen: we at least agree that it's a very important letter.

[1:08:16] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[1:08:16] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[1:08:16] Bob Dobbs: Do you have your letters right there?

[1:08:19] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:08:19] Cameron McEwen: I'm just pulling it out now.

[1:08:21] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:08:21] Bob Dobbs: look up the June

[1:08:23] Bob Dobbs: 22nd. You know,

[1:08:24] Bob Dobbs: that's where he says he's an intellectual thug.

[1:08:27] Bob Dobbs: It's a long letter.

[1:08:33] Bob Dobbs: Look up June 22nd,

[1:08:36] Cameron McEwen: 52.

[1:08:41] Cameron McEwen: There is no June

[1:08:42] Cameron McEwen: 22nd,

[1:08:43] Bob Dobbs: 52. Okay.

[1:08:48] Bob Dobbs: There's...

[1:08:48] Bob Dobbs: June 22nd,

[1:08:49] Cameron McEwen: 51,

[1:08:50] Cameron McEwen: then.

[1:08:50] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:08:50] Cameron McEwen: that's what I think you were thinking about.

[1:08:52] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:08:52] Cameron McEwen: that's...

[1:08:52] Cameron McEwen: June 22,

[1:08:54] Cameron McEwen: 51 is the...

[1:08:57] Cameron McEwen: That's why I said I thought it was 51 and not 52.

[1:09:00] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:09:01] Bob Dobbs: So that's...

[1:09:01] Bob Dobbs: the long letter where he says an intellectual thug and does you'll see the word words in italics is that in that letter might

[1:09:18] Cameron McEwen: be on the second page well i mean um he says um he's how are words to be used to unweave the spell of

[1:09:31] Cameron McEwen: print.

[1:09:34] Cameron McEwen: I'm working on that problem with that italicized.

[1:09:37] Cameron McEwen: The word is now the cheapest and the most universal drug.

[1:09:41] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:09:43] Bob Dobbs: That's what I'm talking about.

[1:09:44] Bob Dobbs: But look at the sentence before where he says,

[1:09:47] Bob Dobbs: you guys did something with the word.

[1:10:03] Cameron McEwen: I think you're thinking about the 62 letter.

[1:10:16] Cameron McEwen: I don't see anything like that here.

[1:10:20] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:10:21] Bob Dobbs: because he says,

[1:10:22] Bob Dobbs: I'm working on the word is drug,

[1:10:24] Bob Dobbs: but he's already stated what they were dealing with with words.

[1:10:28] Bob Dobbs: It was an earlier phase.

[1:10:30] Bob Dobbs: I don't see why it wouldn't be in that letter because that's.

[1:10:33] Bob Dobbs: I always put the two together,

[1:10:35] Bob Dobbs: and he laid out the two.

[1:10:37] Bob Dobbs: Just look a few lines up a bit from the trip.

[1:10:40] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[1:10:40] Cameron McEwen: I am.

[1:10:40] Cameron McEwen: That's where he talks about

[1:10:43] Cameron McEwen: Lewis writing

[1:10:45] Cameron McEwen: America and the Cosmic Man,

[1:10:47] Cameron McEwen: and how he was trying to clear the air of food.

[1:10:53] Bob Dobbs: A fug.

[1:10:55] Cameron McEwen: And that,

[1:10:57] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[1:10:59] Cameron McEwen: I prefer to diffuse that.

[1:11:02] Cameron McEwen: that

[1:11:03] Cameron McEwen: this gigantic human bomb by starting a dialogue somewhere in the sidelines.

[1:11:09] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:11:09] Bob Dobbs: it might be past that.

[1:11:10] Bob Dobbs: Do you know where the word F-U-G comes from?

[1:11:14] Cameron McEwen: I thought it was for fuck all.

[1:11:16] Bob Dobbs: Yes,

[1:11:17] Bob Dobbs: it was Mailer used it in his novel,

[1:11:20] Bob Dobbs: The Naked or something,

[1:11:21] Bob Dobbs: whatever his novel was after World War II.

[1:11:23] Cameron McEwen: Naked and the Dead.

[1:11:24] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:11:24] Bob Dobbs: and he couldn't use say fuck,

[1:11:26] Bob Dobbs: so he said fug.

[1:11:29] Bob Dobbs: And I assume because it put him on the map,

[1:11:31] Bob Dobbs: I assume...

[1:11:33] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan read it,

[1:11:35] Bob Dobbs: or it was part of the slang language anyways,

[1:11:38] Bob Dobbs: you know?

[1:11:39] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:11:39] Cameron McEwen: I think the latter.

[1:11:41] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:11:44] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:11:44] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[1:11:44] Bob Dobbs: he talks about being a thug,

[1:11:46] Bob Dobbs: and you go over to the next page and go up to the top paragraphs moving down.

[1:11:51] Bob Dobbs: Like the word,

[1:11:52] Bob Dobbs: as drug,

[1:11:53] Bob Dobbs: that's on the second page of the letter,

[1:11:55] Bob Dobbs: isn't it?

[1:11:56] Cameron McEwen: Yes,

[1:11:56] Cameron McEwen: sir.

[1:11:57] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:11:57] Bob Dobbs: and it's further down.

[1:11:59] Bob Dobbs: you

[1:11:59] Bob Dobbs: It would look a little higher to see where he talks about them.

[1:12:05] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:12:05] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:12:06] Cameron McEwen: obviously I'm looking around a lot on this letter,

[1:12:12] Cameron McEwen: but...

[1:12:13] Bob Dobbs: Not seeing it.

[1:12:15] Cameron McEwen: I'm not seeing that.

[1:12:16] Cameron McEwen: But

[1:12:23] Cameron McEwen: I think what you're talking about is in a later letter.

[1:12:29] Cameron McEwen: where he talks about the liturgies,

[1:12:36] Cameron McEwen: but I'm having trouble.

[1:12:38] Bob Dobbs: You mean the Secret Society?

[1:12:40] Cameron McEwen: That's page 234.

[1:12:50] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[1:12:50] Cameron McEwen: 235,

[1:12:51] Cameron McEwen: yeah,

[1:12:51] Cameron McEwen: exactly.

[1:12:52] Cameron McEwen: So here he talks about,

[1:12:54] Cameron McEwen: doesn't make me any happier to know that Joyce,

[1:12:57] Cameron McEwen: Lewis,

[1:12:57] Cameron McEwen: Elliot,

[1:12:58] Cameron McEwen: and yourself.

[1:12:59] Cameron McEwen: have used these rituals as a basis for tactility.

[1:13:03] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:13:04] Cameron McEwen: Now,

[1:13:04] Cameron McEwen: that's not what you're talking about?

[1:13:06] Bob Dobbs: No.

[1:13:07] Bob Dobbs: He says they dealt with the word as it was a new idea.

[1:13:13] Bob Dobbs: Kenner Wright about it in the Pound Era.

[1:13:15] Bob Dobbs: They discovered the role of language in a new,

[1:13:18] Bob Dobbs: more expanded way.

[1:13:20] Bob Dobbs: And I would say the anti-environment brought back the word as an art form.

[1:13:25] Bob Dobbs: And linguistics got going,

[1:13:27] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:13:27] Bob Dobbs: so sure in those guys.

[1:13:29] Bob Dobbs: But Pound and Joyce were looking at it more aesthetically or whatever,

[1:13:32] Bob Dobbs: I don't know,

[1:13:33] Bob Dobbs: whatever you call it,

[1:13:34] Bob Dobbs: poetically.

[1:13:35] Bob Dobbs: But they were looking at,

[1:13:38] Bob Dobbs: they were sort of getting the insight that everything was a word.

[1:13:41] Bob Dobbs: All artifacts were words.

[1:13:42] Bob Dobbs: So they were retrieving the Munton,

[1:13:46] Bob Dobbs: discarnate vitality of the word as a living organism.

[1:13:51] Bob Dobbs: That is McLuhan PhD theme.

[1:13:52] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:13:57] Cameron McEwen: except that...

[1:14:00] Cameron McEwen: What he's seeing at this time is that remaining at the level of the literary doesn't work.

[1:14:10] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:14:10] Cameron McEwen: The level of the literary is the Gutenberg Galaxy.

[1:14:14] Bob Dobbs: The Gutenberg Galaxy was now a drug.

[1:14:17] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[1:14:18] Cameron McEwen: But he recognizes that he had been drugged out of it.

[1:14:22] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:14:22] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:14:23] Cameron McEwen: So he was seeing through himself.

[1:14:27] Cameron McEwen: And at the same time,

[1:14:29] Cameron McEwen: he was seeing through his heroes.

[1:14:32] Bob Dobbs: That's right.

[1:14:33] Bob Dobbs: He actually broke into the silent sea at that point.

[1:14:36] Bob Dobbs: That's where he was seeing something no one else of his generation was seeing.

[1:14:42] Cameron McEwen: Maybe.

[1:14:44] Cameron McEwen: The way I would formulate it is I would say that at that time,

[1:14:48] Cameron McEwen: he recognized that what he had done previously was only literature,

[1:14:56] Cameron McEwen: was only epistemology.

[1:14:58] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:14:58] Cameron McEwen: And that's...

[1:14:59] Cameron McEwen: He had to go into ontology.

[1:15:03] Cameron McEwen: And the problem that he then saw was that ontology is not singular but plural.

[1:15:13] Cameron McEwen: And to communicate that,

[1:15:21] Cameron McEwen: people had to learn how to navigate the gap between ontology.

[1:15:27] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:15:27] Bob Dobbs: and also he's...

[1:15:29] Bob Dobbs: processing Ted Carpenter

[1:15:31] Bob Dobbs: Eskimo knowledge.

[1:15:34] Cameron McEwen: There's a whole bunch of things that are going on in his life at that point.

[1:15:41] Cameron McEwen: Cybernetics,

[1:15:43] Cameron McEwen: he's communicating with

[1:15:46] Cameron McEwen: Norbert Wiener.

[1:15:48] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:15:48] Bob Dobbs: look at it this way.

[1:15:49] Bob Dobbs: He's got Don Theall bringing Wiener to him.

[1:15:52] Bob Dobbs: He's got Ted Carpenter bringing

[1:15:55] Bob Dobbs: Eskimo reality to him.

[1:15:56] Bob Dobbs: He's got Innis doing his stuff.

[1:15:58] Bob Dobbs: and he's dealing with Pound.

[1:16:00] Bob Dobbs: That's the,

[1:16:01] Bob Dobbs: maybe there's a Tetrad in there.

[1:16:04] Bob Dobbs: Is there anybody else?

[1:16:06] Cameron McEwen: Joyce,

[1:16:06] Cameron McEwen: yeah,

[1:16:06] Cameron McEwen: Joyce is very important to him.

[1:16:09] Bob Dobbs: Right,

[1:16:09] Bob Dobbs: well,

[1:16:09] Bob Dobbs: that's what Theall,

[1:16:10] Bob Dobbs: Theall brings cybernetics and Joyce,

[1:16:13] Bob Dobbs: and they start,

[1:16:14] Bob Dobbs: no?

[1:16:15] Cameron McEwen: If you listen to Theall,

[1:16:17] Cameron McEwen: that's the way it works.

[1:16:18] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:16:18] Bob Dobbs: no,

[1:16:19] Bob Dobbs: Theall,

[1:16:20] Bob Dobbs: they started to do a little reading club of Finnegans Wake.

[1:16:23] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:16:24] Cameron McEwen: right.

[1:16:25] Cameron McEwen: But that,

[1:16:27] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[1:16:28] Cameron McEwen: He was getting a lot of Joyce from Kenner,

[1:16:31] Cameron McEwen: right?

[1:16:31] Cameron McEwen: Kenner would write his PhD on Joyce right at that time,

[1:16:37] Cameron McEwen: and they were intensely involved with each other.

[1:16:40] Cameron McEwen: And

[1:16:42] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan was doing his own research into

[1:16:47] Bob Dobbs: Joyce. And Lewis.

[1:16:49] Cameron McEwen: And then,

[1:16:50] Cameron McEwen: yeah,

[1:16:50] Cameron McEwen: and as regards cybernetics and stuff,

[1:16:54] Cameron McEwen: Um,

[1:16:56] Cameron McEwen: Maybe Theall thinks that he introduced McLuhan to that,

[1:17:00] Cameron McEwen: but

[1:17:01] Cameron McEwen: I'm not so sure that that's true.

[1:17:04] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:17:05] Bob Dobbs: Theall introduced the cybernetics to him.

[1:17:08] Bob Dobbs: He didn't know about that.

[1:17:10] Bob Dobbs: I have

[1:17:12] Bob Dobbs: Theall copy of the Social Communication,

[1:17:18] Bob Dobbs: Karl Deutsch and maybe

[1:17:20] Bob Dobbs: Bateson, that book.

[1:17:24] Cameron McEwen: Deutsch and Bateson,

[1:17:26] Cameron McEwen: somebody else in Bateson.

[1:17:28] Cameron McEwen: But

[1:17:29] Cameron McEwen: I know the book you're talking about.

[1:17:30] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:17:31] Bob Dobbs: Hoibsch,

[1:17:31] Bob Dobbs: maybe,

[1:17:32] Bob Dobbs: Hugh Kenner or something,

[1:17:34] Bob Dobbs: rather than Deutsch.

[1:17:35] Bob Dobbs: But it has McLuhan annotations in it.

[1:17:41] Bob Dobbs: So I think it's Don's copy,

[1:17:43] Bob Dobbs: lent to McLuhan.

[1:17:45] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan read it and made annotations in it,

[1:17:49] Bob Dobbs: gave it back to Don,

[1:17:50] Bob Dobbs: and then I got it from Don.

[1:17:52] Bob Dobbs: It's a pretty important book.

[1:17:55] Bob Dobbs: I think it's what,

[1:17:56] Bob Dobbs: psychiatry or communication,

[1:17:58] Bob Dobbs: the social matrix of psychiatry?

[1:18:00] Bob Dobbs: Is that the title of it?

[1:18:03] Cameron McEwen: I think it might be called the social matrix of communication.

[1:18:06] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:18:07] Bob Dobbs: And then I go to the

[1:18:11] Bob Dobbs: Ennis letter,

[1:18:14] Bob Dobbs: March 51.

[1:18:17] Bob Dobbs: He mentions,

[1:18:19] Bob Dobbs: I think,

[1:18:20] Bob Dobbs: the book.

[1:18:22] Cameron McEwen: He mentions.

[1:18:23] Cameron McEwen: He mentions Deutsch in that letter.

[1:18:27] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:18:28] Bob Dobbs: I don't see it there.

[1:18:34] Bob Dobbs: Oh,

[1:18:34] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[1:18:34] Bob Dobbs: the fallacy in the Channer approach,

[1:18:38] Bob Dobbs: footnote 7,

[1:18:40] Bob Dobbs: the human use of human beings,

[1:18:42] Bob Dobbs: but footnote 6,

[1:18:43] Bob Dobbs: Karl Deutsch,

[1:18:45] Bob Dobbs: communication and Self-Condemned organization,

[1:18:48] Bob Dobbs: notes on autonomy,

[1:18:49] Bob Dobbs: freedom,

[1:18:49] Bob Dobbs: and authority,

[1:18:50] Bob Dobbs: and the growth of social groups.

[1:18:52] Cameron McEwen: I've got a...

[1:18:53] Cameron McEwen: I've got a Postman that.

[1:18:55] Cameron McEwen: The footnote is mistaken.

[1:18:57] Bob Dobbs: Is that right?

[1:19:01] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:19:04] Cameron McEwen: You see,

[1:19:05] Cameron McEwen: the whole notion of...

[1:19:05] Cameron McEwen: You're blipping out.

[1:19:08] Cameron McEwen: I'm sorry.

[1:19:08] Cameron McEwen: Can you hear me now?

[1:19:10] Bob Dobbs: No.

[1:19:11] Cameron McEwen: No?

[1:19:12] Cameron McEwen: Hello,

[1:19:15] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:19:16] Bob Dobbs: I can barely hear you.

[1:19:19] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:19:19] Cameron McEwen: it's on...

[1:19:19] Bob Dobbs: Fix your mic or something.

[1:19:23] Cameron McEwen: How's that?

[1:19:25] Bob Dobbs: Starting to get better.

[1:19:26] Cameron McEwen: Keep going.

[1:19:28] Cameron McEwen: Okay.

[1:19:32] Cameron McEwen: The story of McLuhan and cybernetics is quite complicated.

[1:19:36] Cameron McEwen: And one of the things that people have to understand is that

[1:19:41] Cameron McEwen: Sigfried Giedion was a guest lecturer at MIT in

[1:19:47] Cameron McEwen: 1950. And McLuhan and Giedion were in touch.

[1:19:53] Cameron McEwen: And

[1:19:53] Cameron McEwen: Giedion was the guy that sent

[1:19:57] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan

[1:19:58] Cameron McEwen: Dawkins essay.

[1:20:00] Cameron McEwen: And I forget exactly the title of the essay that

[1:20:04] Cameron McEwen: Giedion sent McLuhan,

[1:20:06] Cameron McEwen: but it was published in 1948 in a collection,

[1:20:12] Cameron McEwen: and the off-print is still to be found in the Giedion papers in Zurich.

[1:20:23] Cameron McEwen: So what that does is it shows that...

[1:20:29] Cameron McEwen: The footnote is not quite correct in the letters,

[1:20:32] Cameron McEwen: but it also means that we have to rethink the theol introduction of cybernetics to McLuhan.

[1:20:41] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[1:20:42] Cameron McEwen: See them a little bit.

[1:20:45] Cameron McEwen: It's just

[1:20:47] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan was usually out ahead of other people and other people could not really appreciate.

[1:20:58] Cameron McEwen: what was going on with McLuhan.

[1:21:01] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:21:01] Bob Dobbs: he kept it to himself,

[1:21:02] Bob Dobbs: or he was forced to keep it to himself.

[1:21:06] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:21:07] Bob Dobbs: I think the Deutsch thing I'm thinking of is in Interior landscape,

[1:21:11] Bob Dobbs: the first Joyce essay,

[1:21:13] Bob Dobbs: I think he quotes the communication matrix.

[1:21:19] Bob Dobbs: If you have that right there,

[1:21:20] Bob Dobbs: you'll see it.

[1:21:21] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:21:21] Cameron McEwen: I don't have it.

[1:21:22] Cameron McEwen: But

[1:21:24] Cameron McEwen: I think you mean the Bateson book.

[1:21:26] Cameron McEwen: Bateson quotation,

[1:21:28] Cameron McEwen: not a Deutsch.

[1:21:29] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:21:29] Bob Dobbs: Bateson and Hobbes or Deutsch.

[1:21:33] Bob Dobbs: Bateson and somebody else.

[1:21:35] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:21:35] Cameron McEwen: not Deutsch.

[1:21:36] Cameron McEwen: But yeah,

[1:21:37] Cameron McEwen: so

[1:21:39] Cameron McEwen: I know that he does quote

[1:21:43] Cameron McEwen: Bateson there.

[1:21:44] Cameron McEwen: And he also quotes Bateson in a letter at the time.

[1:21:48] Cameron McEwen: But then,

[1:21:50] Cameron McEwen: as far as I know,

[1:21:52] Cameron McEwen: he just he didn't follow.

[1:21:55] Bob Dobbs: uh Watson work yeah that's right um okay so i'm looking at days 227 june

[1:22:04] Bob Dobbs: 22nd 51 letter and he says um i am not of the we party i should prefer to defuse this gigantic human bomb by starting a dialogue somewhere on the sidelines to distract the trigger men or the needle of some Wyndham Lewis so you read that and he says Yeah.

[1:22:23] Bob Dobbs: In London,

[1:22:23] Bob Dobbs: 1910,

[1:22:24] Bob Dobbs: you face various undesirable states of mind.

[1:22:27] Bob Dobbs: Since then,

[1:22:28] Bob Dobbs: the word has been used to affect a universal hypnosis.

[1:22:32] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:22:33] Bob Dobbs: I remember now,

[1:22:36] Bob Dobbs: I filled in what Kenner said in the Pound era about how a pound of them discovered the word.

[1:22:43] Bob Dobbs: Now,

[1:22:45] Bob Dobbs: they did it.

[1:22:46] Bob Dobbs: That was the antidote to undesirable states of mind,

[1:22:49] Bob Dobbs: which was Gutenberg minds.

[1:22:52] Bob Dobbs: So that's why I always thought there was a statement about words about the men of 1914,

[1:23:00] Bob Dobbs: but it's not in here.

[1:23:01] Bob Dobbs: It's in Kenner.

[1:23:03] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:23:04] Bob Dobbs: Because then he goes,

[1:23:05] Bob Dobbs: since then the word has been used to affect a universal hypnosis.

[1:23:08] Bob Dobbs: How are words to be used to unweave the spell of print of radio commercials and newscasts?

[1:23:14] Bob Dobbs: I'm working on that problem.

[1:23:16] Bob Dobbs: The word is now the cheapest,

[1:23:17] Bob Dobbs: most universal drug.

[1:23:20] Bob Dobbs: So that's a very important statement there.

[1:23:23] Cameron McEwen: Absolutely.

[1:23:25] Cameron McEwen: It's where we Wright today.

[1:23:27] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:23:28] Bob Dobbs: And the next paragraph,

[1:23:29] Bob Dobbs: too.

[1:23:30] Bob Dobbs: We're inside the machine.

[1:23:31] Bob Dobbs: The machine's inside us.

[1:23:33] Bob Dobbs: Our problem is tougher.

[1:23:35] Bob Dobbs: I think that's what he's saying.

[1:23:37] Bob Dobbs: There's where he's saying,

[1:23:38] Bob Dobbs: seeing through pounding them.

[1:23:42] Bob Dobbs: He's trying to tell him,

[1:23:44] Bob Dobbs: I'm into some problem that you may not be aware of.

[1:23:51] Cameron McEwen: Maybe.

[1:23:54] Cameron McEwen: He certainly says that the next year,

[1:23:58] Cameron McEwen: so this may be the first intimation of that.

[1:24:09] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:24:10] Bob Dobbs: and he gives the outline for the Gutenberg Galaxy and he gets no response from Pound.

[1:24:15] Bob Dobbs: Pound says,

[1:24:16] Bob Dobbs: nuts,

[1:24:17] Bob Dobbs: that's nuts,

[1:24:19] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:24:19] Bob Dobbs: remember that part?

[1:24:21] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:24:21] Cameron McEwen: of course.

[1:24:22] Cameron McEwen: I think that's in the letters here.

[1:24:31] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:24:32] Cameron McEwen: So he asked.

[1:24:33] Cameron McEwen: if Pound can understand sort of the history of media.

[1:24:38] Cameron McEwen: That's the question that he's asking Pound.

[1:24:41] Cameron McEwen: And it's a little bit unclear what exactly Pound thought was nuts.

[1:24:49] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[1:24:50] Cameron McEwen: And

[1:24:52] Bob Dobbs: I think that this is when

[1:24:54] Bob Dobbs: Ted Carpenter, Theall,

[1:24:54] Bob Dobbs: and he are starting to think about applying to the Ford

[1:25:00] Bob Dobbs: Foundation.

[1:25:02] Bob Dobbs: That's what this...

[1:25:03] Bob Dobbs: the end of the Gutenberg era is a summary of what's going to be in their proposal to the Ford Foundation.

[1:25:12] Cameron McEwen: Yes,

[1:25:12] Cameron McEwen: I think that's the case,

[1:25:15] Cameron McEwen: but it's more in the background of their application.

[1:25:21] Cameron McEwen: Their application is intended to awake memories of Ennis more than get into the

[1:25:32] Bob Dobbs: history of uh uh that uh McLuhan would later yeah set out so when i turn the page you know he lays out you know radio tv cinema radio telephone but then he says since rambo the newspaper as landscape enters all the arts with

[1:25:50] Bob Dobbs: landscape comes necessary musical adjustment of all parts of poetic composition there's the music right juxtaposition of forces in field rather than continue a statement with mechanization of...

[1:26:02] Bob Dobbs: peach and jester and swamping with visual auditory matter after print created drought,

[1:26:07] Bob Dobbs: we come to the age of semi-literacy at best.

[1:26:10] Bob Dobbs: You could say this in a hundred words,

[1:26:12] Bob Dobbs: but are there some big facts I've missed?

[1:26:15] Bob Dobbs: Of course,

[1:26:16] Bob Dobbs: I'm interested in the serious Meg.

[1:26:18] Bob Dobbs: Mencken discovered the only real audience in America was on the American campus,

[1:26:25] Bob Dobbs: the undergraduate.

[1:26:26] Bob Dobbs: He's still there,

[1:26:27] Bob Dobbs: but nobody since Mencken has reached him.

[1:26:30] Bob Dobbs: You have to have a program for the undergrad,

[1:26:32] Bob Dobbs: some icon smashing plus a real bogeyman.

[1:26:36] Bob Dobbs: For a ladder in place of Babbitt,

[1:26:38] Bob Dobbs: I suggest a bureaucrat,

[1:26:40] Bob Dobbs: both inside government and big business.

[1:26:41] Bob Dobbs: He is the new Babbitt.

[1:26:43] Bob Dobbs: His ways are worth study.

[1:26:45] Bob Dobbs: For example,

[1:26:46] Bob Dobbs: Fortune Magazine,

[1:26:47] Bob Dobbs: October,

[1:26:47] Bob Dobbs: November 51,

[1:26:49] Bob Dobbs: an article called Wives in Management.

[1:26:52] Bob Dobbs: He goes,

[1:26:53] Bob Dobbs: honey,

[1:26:55] Bob Dobbs: we'll get back to other points in your letter when I get a chance to in a day or so.

[1:26:59] Bob Dobbs: So let's go to the quote here in

[1:27:06] Bob Dobbs: One Piece in the Global Village.

[1:27:08] Bob Dobbs: So he says,

[1:27:09] Bob Dobbs: The biologists use two other categories that are helpful for perceiving the relation between the end of nature today and the problem of understanding the future of media and technology.

[1:27:19] Bob Dobbs: They speak of outbreeding and inbreeding.

[1:27:22] Bob Dobbs: As Mayr puts it,

[1:27:23] Bob Dobbs: quote,

[1:27:23] Bob Dobbs: Most animals are essentially outbreeders,

[1:27:25] Bob Dobbs: most microorganisms inbreeders.

[1:27:29] Bob Dobbs: With electricity,

[1:27:30] Bob Dobbs: all this has changed totally.

[1:27:32] Bob Dobbs: At present,

[1:27:32] Bob Dobbs: the entire mammalian world has become the co-anesthetic.

[1:27:38] Bob Dobbs: That's partly why I have on my chart the subatomic particles,

[1:27:45] Bob Dobbs: as they were laid out in the mid-80s,

[1:27:48] Bob Dobbs: including the term demon nuclei.

[1:27:51] Bob Dobbs: That's the human,

[1:27:52] Bob Dobbs: the chemical body,

[1:27:52] Bob Dobbs: is co-anesthetic.

[1:27:54] Bob Dobbs: It is the total individual cultures of the world,

[1:27:57] Bob Dobbs: linguistically and politically,

[1:27:58] Bob Dobbs: that have become the mammals,

[1:28:00] Bob Dobbs: according to the old classifications of evolutionary hypothesis.

[1:28:08] Bob Dobbs: It is the cultural habitat in which we have long been accustomed to think that people were contained has now become the mammal itself.

[1:28:14] Bob Dobbs: That's a really great statement.

[1:28:16] Bob Dobbs: Now contained in a new macrocosm or connubium of a superterrestrial kind.

[1:28:21] Bob Dobbs: That's a pretty...

[1:28:23] Bob Dobbs: complex or interesting statement our very complex yeah our technologies or Explorations and the anti-environment or habitats which they create must now become that matrix of that macrocosmic connubial bliss derided

[1:28:38] Bob Dobbs: by the evolutionist so you would i would look for other places where he used the word connubial or connubium and not too many others no that's right it's a rare word there

[1:28:50] Bob Dobbs: And...

[1:28:51] Bob Dobbs: It's an interesting,

[1:28:53] Bob Dobbs: is it the peace that passes all understanding,

[1:28:56] Bob Dobbs: which he changed to the peace that passes all technology?

[1:28:59] Bob Dobbs: What is this connubium that's going on,

[1:29:02] Bob Dobbs: you know?

[1:29:03] Bob Dobbs: The connubial bliss derided by the evolutionists.

[1:29:06] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:29:06] Bob Dobbs: that's derided by the linear mind.

[1:29:10] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:29:10] Cameron McEwen: well,

[1:29:11] Cameron McEwen: that relates to the last word and cliche that we were just talking about.

[1:29:17] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:29:18] Bob Dobbs: so what do you think...

[1:29:20] Bob Dobbs: is the part you don't get here Innis quote?

[1:29:23] Bob Dobbs: The connubial part?

[1:29:27] Cameron McEwen: I'll specify it for you in a sec.

[1:29:30] Cameron McEwen: I didn't want to interrupt your reading,

[1:29:32] Cameron McEwen: but I need to let the dog out the door here.

[1:29:34] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:29:35] Cameron McEwen: yeah,

[1:29:36] Cameron McEwen: go ahead.

[1:29:36] Cameron McEwen: I'm just going to walk over there.

[1:29:37] Cameron McEwen: Let me know if we drop out.

[1:29:50] Cameron McEwen: Okay,

[1:29:50] Cameron McEwen: I'm done.

[1:29:52] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:29:52] Bob Dobbs: just remember.

[1:29:54] Bob Dobbs: In his essay on Wyndham Lewis and interior landscape,

[1:29:58] Bob Dobbs: that's where he deflates the scientist.

[1:30:00] Bob Dobbs: He talks about the scientist has a magical formula,

[1:30:03] Bob Dobbs: retrieves the magic of,

[1:30:05] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:30:06] Bob Dobbs: tribal societies.

[1:30:07] Bob Dobbs: So the scientist has a formula and that puts on the world with that.

[1:30:12] Bob Dobbs: And the artist can't handle the blow to his ego from the atomic bomb.

[1:30:18] Bob Dobbs: That's your science and art being deflated.

[1:30:22] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:30:22] Cameron McEwen: So last word going to cliche.

[1:30:25] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:30:27] Bob Dobbs: The last word,

[1:30:27] Bob Dobbs: the latest great artist,

[1:30:30] Bob Dobbs: immediately is a cliche.

[1:30:33] Bob Dobbs: So then Warhol says,

[1:30:34] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:30:35] Bob Dobbs: everybody's famous for 15 minutes.

[1:30:37] Bob Dobbs: And they say that he got that by reading McLuhan.

[1:30:43] Bob Dobbs: That's what he came up with in his translation of what he thought McLuhan was saying.

[1:30:48] Bob Dobbs: Have you ever heard of that?

[1:30:50] Cameron McEwen: No.

[1:30:50] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:30:51] Bob Dobbs: no.

[1:30:52] Bob Dobbs: I think they even have it in the Warhol Museum in

[1:30:59] Bob Dobbs: Pittsburgh or Philadelphia,

[1:31:00] Bob Dobbs: wherever it is.

[1:31:05] Cameron McEwen: Could be.

[1:31:05] Cameron McEwen: I have a Postman

[1:31:09] Cameron McEwen: Warhol taking his

[1:31:12] Cameron McEwen: 15 minutes of fame directly from

[1:31:15] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan.

[1:31:18] Bob Dobbs: Yeah, you talk about that,

[1:31:20] Bob Dobbs: you're saying.

[1:31:21] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:31:22] Bob Dobbs: So you're citing something that maybe I'm citing?

[1:31:27] Cameron McEwen: What I do is I show that

[1:31:30] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan knew in the early

[1:31:36] Cameron McEwen: 60s that fame could be manufactured.

[1:31:41] Cameron McEwen: And so I show his relationship with Gossage has been possibly misconceived.

[1:31:49] Cameron McEwen: Usually it's presented as if...

[1:31:51] Cameron McEwen: Gossage was the expert on fame and was able to deliver fame to McLuhan.

[1:31:58] Cameron McEwen: And I think

[1:31:59] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan had the insight into fame and was able to use Gossage to get it.

[1:32:04] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:32:08] Cameron McEwen: so maybe I misunderstood what you were just saying when you asked me if

[1:32:15] Cameron McEwen: I knew anything about what you were talking about.

[1:32:20] Cameron McEwen: And I said no.

[1:32:21] Cameron McEwen: Maybe I should have said yes.

[1:32:23] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:32:26] Bob Dobbs: The

[1:32:28] Bob Dobbs: Ion said that McLuhan went for Ghazali,

[1:32:33] Bob Dobbs: the way you were describing,

[1:32:35] Bob Dobbs: because he's getting pressure from

[1:32:37] Bob Dobbs: Corrine. Corrine was sick of the whole stupid academic world.

[1:32:40] Bob Dobbs: She had bigger ambitions.

[1:32:43] Bob Dobbs: And she probably realized he could go further.

[1:32:44] Bob Dobbs: So she said,

[1:32:45] Bob Dobbs: you fucking get to do something here or I'm gone.

[1:32:53] Bob Dobbs: Wychwood Park be pretty shocking to hear the family respond to that.

[1:32:57] Bob Dobbs: But anyways,

[1:32:59] Bob Dobbs: Ion's pretty cold.

[1:33:01] Bob Dobbs: It sees what's going on and says stuff.

[1:33:04] Bob Dobbs: That's what he did.

[1:33:06] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:33:06] Cameron McEwen: it certainly may be true that she may have,

[1:33:11] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[1:33:12] Cameron McEwen: supported his extra academic voyage.

[1:33:21] Cameron McEwen: She may have given him the confidence to do it.

[1:33:26] Cameron McEwen: She may have told him that he was certainly capable of it.

[1:33:33] Cameron McEwen: She may have pointed out how their mutual friend,

[1:33:39] Cameron McEwen: Miller Teen,

[1:33:40] Cameron McEwen: had done something of the sort.

[1:33:43] Cameron McEwen: So

[1:33:45] Cameron McEwen: I would imagine that she played an important role.

[1:33:48] Cameron McEwen: I wouldn't describe it.

[1:33:50] Cameron McEwen: as you say Ion has,

[1:33:52] Cameron McEwen: but that she was his backbone,

[1:33:55] Cameron McEwen: I don't think there's any doubt about that.

[1:34:01] Bob Dobbs: Okay.

[1:34:03] Bob Dobbs: So then underneath the quote,

[1:34:05] Bob Dobbs: you have me translating it.

[1:34:08] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:34:09] Bob Dobbs: I'm saying it to this person and then we transcribe it.

[1:34:11] Bob Dobbs: Basically,

[1:34:12] Bob Dobbs: people started to identify with animals because the animal kingdom,

[1:34:16] Bob Dobbs: which was traditionally separate from humans,

[1:34:18] Bob Dobbs: merged with humans and all of nature,

[1:34:21] Bob Dobbs: now subsumed into the second nature,

[1:34:23] Bob Dobbs: which was technology.

[1:34:25] Bob Dobbs: We started to think the animals were similar to us.

[1:34:27] Bob Dobbs: We were all in the same boat inside the technological matrix,

[1:34:30] Bob Dobbs: second nature.

[1:34:32] Bob Dobbs: Technology became the outbreeder,

[1:34:34] Bob Dobbs: whereas before animals were the outbreeders.

[1:34:36] Bob Dobbs: and humans were inbreeders but then the mammals and humans both became paranoid inbreeders while technology became the outbreeder that's the last page War and Peace in the Global Village that's important that's increasingly from the 60s on people people kept saying you

[1:34:58] Bob Dobbs: know the media you got to blame the media and i say the media for people was the news and

[1:35:06] Bob Dobbs: This was the news containing all languages and cultures outbreeding on people.

[1:35:14] Bob Dobbs: This is what people gradually got alienated by in the 60s,

[1:35:17] Bob Dobbs: 70s,

[1:35:17] Bob Dobbs: 80s,

[1:35:18] Bob Dobbs: and 90s,

[1:35:19] Bob Dobbs: is the technology becoming an outbreeder and basically swallowing the little microorganisms of humans.

[1:35:34] Cameron McEwen: I understand what you're saying there,

[1:35:35] Cameron McEwen: but I don't understand its connection with alienation.

[1:35:41] Cameron McEwen: You seem to be saying that there's a process that at once engulfs and alienates.

[1:35:51] Cameron McEwen: And

[1:35:52] Cameron McEwen: I can see how those potentially go together,

[1:35:55] Cameron McEwen: but I don't know how you're intending it.

[1:35:58] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:35:58] Bob Dobbs: he's saying the outbreeder is media.

[1:36:03] Bob Dobbs: They're the new animals.

[1:36:06] Bob Dobbs: That's a title of a song on the Skornia Ecclesiastes album that I came up with.

[1:36:10] Bob Dobbs: New animals waving goodbye.

[1:36:12] Bob Dobbs: There was constantly new animals being made.

[1:36:14] Bob Dobbs: New media trends,

[1:36:15] Bob Dobbs: which is what we start off talking about.

[1:36:18] Bob Dobbs: The process of whatever the trend pattern was that people thought.

[1:36:23] Bob Dobbs: He would call it the where it was at syndrome.

[1:36:27] Bob Dobbs: So people kept trying to find out where it was at.

[1:36:30] Bob Dobbs: That was them reacting to the outbreeding.

[1:36:36] Bob Dobbs: Then the next thing is it flips with the Internet.

[1:36:40] Bob Dobbs: People start to,

[1:36:42] Bob Dobbs: in a way,

[1:36:43] Bob Dobbs: become the outbreeder.

[1:36:45] Bob Dobbs: They were able to swallow analog media and become more and more super angels and gods making their own spaces,

[1:36:57] Bob Dobbs: which definitely came in with the web.

[1:37:00] Bob Dobbs: 2.0.

[1:37:03] Cameron McEwen: Before we go too far,

[1:37:05] Cameron McEwen: let's just talk about outbreeding and inbreeding.

[1:37:08] Cameron McEwen: Especially the quotation,

[1:37:12] Cameron McEwen: most animals are essentially outbreeders,

[1:37:15] Cameron McEwen: most microorganisms inbreeders.

[1:37:21] Cameron McEwen: When I read that,

[1:37:22] Cameron McEwen: I read that a microorganism usually replicates itself by dividing.

[1:37:30] Cameron McEwen: And so the inbreeders are replicating a certain identity,

[1:37:40] Cameron McEwen: whereas animals,

[1:37:43] Cameron McEwen: including humans,

[1:37:45] Cameron McEwen: are not replicating themselves in that way.

[1:37:53] Cameron McEwen: They replicate themselves through somebody else or through something else.

[1:37:59] Cameron McEwen: And that's,

[1:38:01] Cameron McEwen: from my way of thinking,

[1:38:02] Cameron McEwen: that's the difference between inbreeder and outbreeder.

[1:38:07] Cameron McEwen: Is that how you're understanding it as well?

[1:38:09] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:38:10] Bob Dobbs: but isn't that reflecting the literate person is Ed Sullivan and the electric person is Ed Sullivan,

[1:38:18] Bob Dobbs: that the guy who did crowds came up with?

[1:38:23] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:38:23] Cameron McEwen: maybe.

[1:38:24] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:38:24] Cameron McEwen: what you just said makes sense.

[1:38:26] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:38:26] Bob Dobbs: and I'm thinking that's what you mean by inbreeder,

[1:38:30] Bob Dobbs: outbreeder.

[1:38:33] Bob Dobbs: But I'm thinking of basically a more aggressive thing.

[1:38:37] Bob Dobbs: Microorganisms are paranoid.

[1:38:40] Bob Dobbs: They just stay within their little world.

[1:38:42] Bob Dobbs: And the animals are out wandering around,

[1:38:48] Bob Dobbs: interacting with other anti-environment.

[1:38:50] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[1:38:51] Bob Dobbs: I can buy that.

[1:38:52] Cameron McEwen: I can buy that.

[1:38:54] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:38:54] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:38:55] Bob Dobbs: Now remember,

[1:38:55] Bob Dobbs: this is this other guy,

[1:38:57] Bob Dobbs: Mayr's categories,

[1:38:59] Bob Dobbs: and McLuhan hijacking you for his purposes.

[1:39:02] Bob Dobbs: But

[1:39:03] Bob Dobbs: I think it's important to realize that the cultures of the world...

[1:39:07] Bob Dobbs: have become the mammals and the outbreeder.

[1:39:12] Bob Dobbs: That's just the paranoid vision that all these Silicon Valley guys got over the last 30 years.

[1:39:21] Bob Dobbs: Every now and then one pops up and says,

[1:39:22] Bob Dobbs: this is horrible,

[1:39:23] Bob Dobbs: it's out of control,

[1:39:24] Bob Dobbs: technology's going to wipe us out.

[1:39:26] Bob Dobbs: And they quit,

[1:39:27] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:39:27] Bob Dobbs: They disappear.

[1:39:30] Bob Dobbs: That's them recognizing the media,

[1:39:32] Bob Dobbs: the cultures of the world,

[1:39:34] Bob Dobbs: and the technology world becoming outbreeder.

[1:39:39] Bob Dobbs: They feel alienated.

[1:39:40] Bob Dobbs: They feel attacked.

[1:39:42] Bob Dobbs: They think that humans are going to be eaten up.

[1:39:49] Cameron McEwen: But to me,

[1:39:50] Cameron McEwen: that seems to presuppose the value of being an inbreeder.

[1:39:58] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:39:59] Bob Dobbs: no.

[1:40:00] Bob Dobbs: Inbreeding is a...

[1:40:06] Bob Dobbs: A hiding,

[1:40:07] Bob Dobbs: a negative response,

[1:40:09] Bob Dobbs: but it's all that you have.

[1:40:11] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[1:40:12] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:40:12] Bob Dobbs: the entire mammalian world has become microorganism.

[1:40:16] Bob Dobbs: That's what people call pollution and the death of animals and lions and stuff.

[1:40:24] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[1:40:24] Bob Dobbs: that's people recognizing that the animals are expendable.

[1:40:31] Bob Dobbs: They become microorganism,

[1:40:33] Bob Dobbs: tiny.

[1:40:35] Bob Dobbs: That may not be what they mean,

[1:40:37] Bob Dobbs: but that's how I took it.

[1:40:41] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:40:41] Cameron McEwen: I'm just trying to understand your reading.

[1:40:44] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:40:44] Bob Dobbs: it may be different from the way inbreeding is actually meant.

[1:40:54] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:40:54] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[1:40:55] Cameron McEwen: I wouldn't,

[1:40:57] Cameron McEwen: I'm not at all trying to be accusatory or critical.

[1:41:01] Cameron McEwen: I'm just trying to feel my way along.

[1:41:04] Cameron McEwen: because I've never really understood this passage.

[1:41:07] Cameron McEwen: I've especially not understood why it's almost a culmination of war and peace.

[1:41:17] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:41:18] Bob Dobbs: It's a cultural habitat in which we have long been accustomed to think that people who are contained has now become the mammal itself.

[1:41:26] Bob Dobbs: People used to,

[1:41:26] Bob Dobbs: in the 80s,

[1:41:27] Bob Dobbs: say the state became the terrorist.

[1:41:32] Bob Dobbs: I think that was a perception of the outbreeding.

[1:41:35] Bob Dobbs: I remember Adam Vaughn at CKLN saying that to me.

[1:41:38] Bob Dobbs: I was telling him about Mae Brussell political conspiracies and stuff.

[1:41:45] Bob Dobbs: And he said,

[1:41:46] Bob Dobbs: oh,

[1:41:46] Bob Dobbs: that's when the state becomes,

[1:41:48] Bob Dobbs: I think he said,

[1:41:49] Bob Dobbs: a terrorist.

[1:41:51] Bob Dobbs: And that's more and more what people think is happening,

[1:41:53] Bob Dobbs: especially now.

[1:41:55] Bob Dobbs: So this quote's really important because they're perceiving the...

[1:41:59] Bob Dobbs: the cultures and media of the world as outbreeders and and people are hiding in their little nuclear families or their religious fundamentalism you know pretty pretty isolated and pretty hopeless and

[1:42:17] Bob Dobbs: pretty afraid and hoping for some some cataclysm to clean up the the outbreeders that's where

[1:42:29] Bob Dobbs: What is the mood in the world right now?

[1:42:32] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[1:42:32] Cameron McEwen: definitely it's the mood right now.

[1:42:35] Cameron McEwen: In terms of McLuhan,

[1:42:36] Cameron McEwen: I kind of thought that by

[1:42:40] Cameron McEwen: 68, he had moved beyond that kind of criticism.

[1:42:53] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:42:54] Bob Dobbs: that's where you get to the connubial bliss.

[1:42:57] Bob Dobbs: So here's what it is.

[1:42:58] Bob Dobbs: At the time,

[1:42:59] Bob Dobbs: in 6768,

[1:43:00] Bob Dobbs: I was hearing from Dave Worcester in the Carolyn of Cosmic Awareness that Rhyee,

[1:43:06] Bob Dobbs: Rhyee,

[1:43:08] Bob Dobbs: which you'll see on my chart,

[1:43:09] Bob Dobbs: which was the original separateness in consciousness,

[1:43:13] Bob Dobbs: whatever that is,

[1:43:15] Bob Dobbs: that had set up all the principalities of the world,

[1:43:21] Bob Dobbs: the Carl Williams,

[1:43:23] Bob Dobbs: the priests,

[1:43:24] Bob Dobbs: and the inner secret societies.

[1:43:28] Bob Dobbs: That had come to a resolution in 67 when Ralph Duby died,

[1:43:35] Bob Dobbs: and he channeled the return of Wright essence.

[1:43:38] Bob Dobbs: So this very obscure,

[1:43:40] Bob Dobbs: almost cultish information is what I came across in 68-69,

[1:43:48] Bob Dobbs: and then I was reading this,

[1:43:49] Bob Dobbs: and that's how I interpreted it.

[1:43:51] Bob Dobbs: A new macrocosm or connubium of a superterrestrial kind.

[1:43:55] Bob Dobbs: In simple terms,

[1:43:56] Bob Dobbs: that's Rhyee,

[1:43:57] Bob Dobbs: and the original separateness has gone.

[1:44:00] Bob Dobbs: And

[1:44:01] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan kind of says it in 55 when he makes that sentence with the cosmic plane.

[1:44:05] Bob Dobbs: Remember he says,

[1:44:06] Bob Dobbs: this is a major shift on a cosmic level or cosmic plane.

[1:44:10] Bob Dobbs: You remember that?

[1:44:12] Cameron McEwen: I do remember that,

[1:44:13] Cameron McEwen: and for me that's very important,

[1:44:17] Cameron McEwen: because I'm always insisting on the plurality of ontology.

[1:44:23] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:44:24] Cameron McEwen: And ontology are the cosmic plane,

[1:44:27] Cameron McEwen: and if it can shift,

[1:44:29] Cameron McEwen: that means it's plural.

[1:44:32] Bob Dobbs: If it can shift,

[1:44:32] Bob Dobbs: that means it's plural,

[1:44:33] Bob Dobbs: right.

[1:44:35] Cameron McEwen: So he's talking about a new macrocosm,

[1:44:40] Cameron McEwen: or connubium of it.

[1:44:41] Cameron McEwen: super terrestrial kind.

[1:44:43] Bob Dobbs: And connubium means marriage.

[1:44:46] Cameron McEwen: Yes,

[1:44:47] Cameron McEwen: or association,

[1:44:49] Cameron McEwen: yes.

[1:44:50] Bob Dobbs: And so the religious idea of heaven and earth coming together is what this is,

[1:44:57] Bob Dobbs: theologically.

[1:44:58] Bob Dobbs: That's what he's talking about.

[1:45:01] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:45:02] Cameron McEwen: I would say what he's talking about is a new sense of identity that doesn't depend...

[1:45:10] Cameron McEwen: upon some variety of inbreeding.

[1:45:12] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:45:14] Bob Dobbs: it doesn't depend on the separateness.

[1:45:20] Cameron McEwen: Okay,

[1:45:21] Cameron McEwen: but that separateness seen from the outside,

[1:45:25] Cameron McEwen: inbreeding seen from the inside,

[1:45:27] Cameron McEwen: is exactly not separate.

[1:45:29] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:45:30] Cameron McEwen: That's some kind of fundamental identity.

[1:45:36] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:45:36] Bob Dobbs: and that's the blindness.

[1:45:40] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:45:41] Bob Dobbs: That's where people get into problems there with that.

[1:45:47] Bob Dobbs: They're seeing things upside down.

[1:45:50] Bob Dobbs: So our technology...

[1:45:54] Cameron McEwen: I think we're coming to an agreement here.

[1:45:56] Cameron McEwen: I think if I understand your reading,

[1:46:00] Cameron McEwen: the sentence is the cultural habitat that has now become the mammal itself.

[1:46:07] Cameron McEwen: That is...

[1:46:08] Cameron McEwen: to say has become the outbreeder.

[1:46:10] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:46:11] Bob Dobbs: So what he's saying is that...

[1:46:13] Bob Dobbs: But it's contained in a anti-environment.

[1:46:20] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[1:46:22] Cameron McEwen: But for

[1:46:26] Cameron McEwen: Catholic McLuhan,

[1:46:28] Cameron McEwen: what that means is that there is a way of understanding our entire context.

[1:46:37] Cameron McEwen: ...ontological context that does not depend upon inbreeding.

[1:46:45] Cameron McEwen: In that total context,

[1:46:47] Cameron McEwen: we can imagine outbreeding as being compatible with identity.

[1:46:53] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:46:54] Bob Dobbs: that's where McLuhan says,

[1:46:55] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:46:55] Bob Dobbs: in the Burroughs interview,

[1:46:57] Bob Dobbs: the aware artist becomes an Egyptian pharaoh and programs the whole culture.

[1:47:02] Bob Dobbs: That's where McLuhan becomes an outbreeder.

[1:47:05] Bob Dobbs: as anti-environment to the cultures being outbreeders he finds a way to bypass that and macrocosm or connubium of a super terrestrial kind and which creates the connubial bliss macrocosmically that's the big level he's performing with the

[1:47:24] Cameron McEwen: um the artist doesn't create that except in the sense that um the artist can make

[1:47:36] Cameron McEwen: as opposed to match,

[1:47:38] Cameron McEwen: can make an awareness of it as being already there.

[1:47:44] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:47:45] Bob Dobbs: yep.

[1:47:46] Cameron McEwen: So it's not,

[1:47:47] Cameron McEwen: when contained in a new macrocosm,

[1:47:50] Cameron McEwen: that's a new macrocosm only in the sense that we weren't aware of that before.

[1:48:02] Cameron McEwen: It's not a new macrocosm in the sense of being.

[1:48:06] Cameron McEwen: produced or manufactured or something like that as new.

[1:48:12] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:48:12] Bob Dobbs: McLuhan,

[1:48:14] Bob Dobbs: if people heard him,

[1:48:16] Bob Dobbs: they could get the pattern,

[1:48:18] Bob Dobbs: and that solved the situation.

[1:48:20] Bob Dobbs: You didn't need a movie,

[1:48:21] Bob Dobbs: an art form to express it.

[1:48:25] Bob Dobbs: The core idea of where we'd come to,

[1:48:29] Bob Dobbs: if it was expressed properly,

[1:48:31] Bob Dobbs: which he was trying to do,

[1:48:33] Bob Dobbs: that would be a huge...

[1:48:35] Bob Dobbs: epiphany for people.

[1:48:37] Bob Dobbs: Absolutely.

[1:48:38] Bob Dobbs: And you could spread that epiphany just by getting on,

[1:48:41] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:48:42] Bob Dobbs: on 60 Minutes or something.

[1:48:44] Bob Dobbs: Back then you had access to major millions of people and they would hear something that they would never hear normally anyways,

[1:48:51] Bob Dobbs: ever.

[1:48:52] Bob Dobbs: And anybody might recognize it through their own experience.

[1:48:57] Cameron McEwen: I think that's true,

[1:49:00] Cameron McEwen: but what was interesting about McLuhan

[1:49:05] Cameron McEwen: answer is epiphany was that the it wouldn't be an idea it would be something more like science it would be something that people would work on

[1:49:19] Cameron McEwen: So it wouldn't have,

[1:49:21] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[1:49:21] Cameron McEwen: some big final answer,

[1:49:23] Cameron McEwen: some big final dogma or anything.

[1:49:26] Cameron McEwen: It would be something that people knew was true,

[1:49:30] Cameron McEwen: but it was not true in a limited sense.

[1:49:33] Cameron McEwen: It was true in the sense of ongoing investigation,

[1:49:38] Cameron McEwen: which could go on forever.

[1:49:40] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:49:41] Bob Dobbs: and the holeopathic implosion that was going on was replaying what the telegraph started.

[1:49:49] Bob Dobbs: The,

[1:49:49] Bob Dobbs: um,

[1:49:50] Bob Dobbs: the connubium,

[1:49:51] Bob Dobbs: the electrical connubium of a superterrestrial kind,

[1:49:55] Bob Dobbs: that is what people had to recognize,

[1:49:57] Bob Dobbs: and they would,

[1:49:58] Bob Dobbs: um,

[1:49:59] Bob Dobbs: have problems staying with the recognition,

[1:50:01] Bob Dobbs: and then,

[1:50:02] Bob Dobbs: then all,

[1:50:04] Bob Dobbs: meditations,

[1:50:04] Bob Dobbs: contemplations,

[1:50:05] Bob Dobbs: or studies would retrieve it once again at some point.

[1:50:09] Bob Dobbs: So that's why McLuhan repeated the theme in every book.

[1:50:13] Bob Dobbs: He wasn't trying to come up with,

[1:50:14] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:50:14] Bob Dobbs: new novels,

[1:50:15] Bob Dobbs: new stories.

[1:50:17] Bob Dobbs: He was trying to say,

[1:50:18] Bob Dobbs: look at the pattern of where we've come to,

[1:50:21] Bob Dobbs: that silent sea.

[1:50:22] Bob Dobbs: And his books would show up every couple of years to remind people of that.

[1:50:28] Bob Dobbs: And that was the best thing to do.

[1:50:30] Bob Dobbs: That's how you communicated it.

[1:50:32] Cameron McEwen: Right.

[1:50:33] Cameron McEwen: So there wasn't something linear going on.

[1:50:37] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:50:37] Cameron McEwen: And what he had to say was always the same old.

[1:50:44] Bob Dobbs: Yep.

[1:50:45] Bob Dobbs: And,

[1:50:45] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:50:46] Bob Dobbs: and he was saying it back in the mid-50s.

[1:50:50] Cameron McEwen: That's right.

[1:50:50] Cameron McEwen: That's when he came across it,

[1:50:52] Cameron McEwen: for sure.

[1:50:54] Cameron McEwen: At the same time,

[1:50:55] Cameron McEwen: he didn't know how to communicate it.

[1:50:58] Cameron McEwen: He didn't know how to say it.

[1:51:00] Cameron McEwen: And so there was a kind of voyaging going on,

[1:51:05] Cameron McEwen: but it was a voyaging within the problem.

[1:51:10] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:51:12] Cameron McEwen: Within

[1:51:14] Cameron McEwen: the investigation that was itself the end of all of our Explorations,

[1:51:23] Cameron McEwen: as

[1:51:26] Cameron McEwen: Elliot says.

[1:51:26] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:51:27] Bob Dobbs: and I think that's expressed,

[1:51:29] Bob Dobbs: what we're trying to say is expressed in Take Today,

[1:51:33] Bob Dobbs: more blatantly than previous books.

[1:51:36] Bob Dobbs: So this is a statement that's going to be developed in Take Today.

[1:51:42] Cameron McEwen: True.

[1:51:43] Cameron McEwen: He had a better sense of what he was trying to say and of the problems in trying to say it.

[1:51:51] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:51:52] Bob Dobbs: and Barry Nevitt was around him for that later phase to be someone who would be a reasonable,

[1:52:00] Bob Dobbs: someone to bounce the ideas off of.

[1:52:03] Bob Dobbs: Ted Carpenter was not interested.

[1:52:04] Bob Dobbs: He told me that.

[1:52:06] Bob Dobbs: Ted Carpenter thought everybody was dumb after him.

[1:52:09] Bob Dobbs: But

[1:52:10] Bob Dobbs: Harley Parker was alcoholic.

[1:52:12] Bob Dobbs: Barry was the guy,

[1:52:14] Bob Dobbs: pretty well balanced,

[1:52:16] Bob Dobbs: who could make that book.

[1:52:19] Bob Dobbs: So that's where he was important for McLuhan when there was nobody around anymore.

[1:52:26] Cameron McEwen: Yes,

[1:52:27] Cameron McEwen: I think that's true.

[1:52:28] Cameron McEwen: I think he was the one guy of the co-authors that was able to bring

[1:52:38] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan in his best form.

[1:52:42] Cameron McEwen: forward.

[1:52:42] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:52:44] Bob Dobbs: The other guys couldn't do it.

[1:52:45] Bob Dobbs: I mean,

[1:52:46] Bob Dobbs: Harley told me that McLuhan learned everything about art from him.

[1:52:50] Cameron McEwen: You know,

[1:52:51] Bob Dobbs: they all made stupid statements.

[1:52:52] Bob Dobbs: Ted Carpenter made crazy statements.

[1:52:54] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[1:52:55] Cameron McEwen: That's what I was trying to say earlier about Theall.

[1:52:59] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:52:59] Bob Dobbs: No,

[1:52:59] Bob Dobbs: Theall was pretty balanced,

[1:53:00] Bob Dobbs: but Theall,

[1:53:01] Bob Dobbs: he didn't like Barry.

[1:53:03] Bob Dobbs: So

[1:53:04] Bob Dobbs: I don't think Theall fully saw the take today vision until later,

[1:53:09] Bob Dobbs: years later.

[1:53:10] Bob Dobbs: Maybe because of his dialogues with me,

[1:53:12] Bob Dobbs: because I would bring it up,

[1:53:13] Bob Dobbs: and I didn't feel that he got it.

[1:53:16] Bob Dobbs: And he did say that he got bogged down dealing with bureaucratic power.

[1:53:22] Bob Dobbs: He said,

[1:53:22] Bob Dobbs: I shouldn't have got into that role and ended up president of the university.

[1:53:25] Bob Dobbs: He said,

[1:53:26] Bob Dobbs: in his own creative development,

[1:53:27] Bob Dobbs: that was a mistake.

[1:53:29] Bob Dobbs: It waylaid him.

[1:53:30] Bob Dobbs: And then when he got out of it,

[1:53:33] Bob Dobbs: he read MIT,

[1:53:35] Bob Dobbs: Jim Stewart Brand's,

[1:53:37] Bob Dobbs: the MIT Media Lab,

[1:53:38] Bob Dobbs: whatever it was called.

[1:53:39] Bob Dobbs: That's when he picked up the McLuhan torch and said,

[1:53:43] Bob Dobbs: OK,

[1:53:43] Bob Dobbs: the cyber culture is fitting its wake.

[1:53:45] Bob Dobbs: And this is what McLuhan was saying.

[1:53:47] Bob Dobbs: And he got a lot of attention in the 90s because of that.

[1:53:51] Bob Dobbs: He was the first to apply McLuhan formula to the new media,

[1:53:56] Bob Dobbs: to the Internet and all that.

[1:53:58] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:54:00] Bob Dobbs: but he could have done it 20 years and probably earlier because he,

[1:54:06] Bob Dobbs: but he got distracted.

[1:54:09] Bob Dobbs: So he had a problem,

[1:54:10] Bob Dobbs: which he admitted.

[1:54:12] Bob Dobbs: Barry was the,

[1:54:13] Bob Dobbs: because Barry was an engineer and was relatively successful and in touch with societies all over the world,

[1:54:20] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:54:20] Bob Dobbs: the IEE society,

[1:54:23] Bob Dobbs: all these different groups of engineers,

[1:54:24] Bob Dobbs: he was quite well known.

[1:54:26] Bob Dobbs: He,

[1:54:26] Bob Dobbs: um...

[1:54:28] Bob Dobbs: He was more balanced,

[1:54:29] Bob Dobbs: you know.

[1:54:29] Bob Dobbs: He didn't have an identity crisis like the rest of them.

[1:54:32] Cameron McEwen: I think,

[1:54:33] Cameron McEwen: yeah,

[1:54:33] Cameron McEwen: you put your finger on it there.

[1:54:36] Cameron McEwen: He was comfortable with himself.

[1:54:39] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:54:40] Cameron McEwen: And so a lot of the other people,

[1:54:43] Cameron McEwen: like Watson,

[1:54:45] Cameron McEwen: got uptight in relationship with McLuhan.

[1:54:49] Bob Dobbs: I forgot about Watson.

[1:54:50] Bob Dobbs: You've got Watson,

[1:54:51] Bob Dobbs: Ted Carpenter,

[1:54:52] Bob Dobbs: Theall,

[1:54:53] Bob Dobbs: and Harley Parker.

[1:54:55] Bob Dobbs: Those are the four guys,

[1:54:56] Bob Dobbs: right?

[1:54:57] Bob Dobbs: Is there anybody else in there?

[1:54:59] Bob Dobbs: The guy who did the computer sensory thresholds,

[1:55:03] Bob Dobbs: he tried to steal stuff from McLuhan.

[1:55:05] Cameron McEwen: Oh,

[1:55:05] Cameron McEwen: that was ridiculous.

[1:55:06] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[1:55:07] Cameron McEwen: that was McLuhan fault.

[1:55:09] Cameron McEwen: Or I shouldn't say it was his fault,

[1:55:10] Cameron McEwen: but

[1:55:12] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan got waylaid into the idea that he could prove his ideas by going down that road,

[1:55:20] Cameron McEwen: which was ridiculous.

[1:55:22] Bob Dobbs: Right,

[1:55:23] Bob Dobbs: but the point is,

[1:55:24] Bob Dobbs: that was another guy he was very involved with.

[1:55:26] Bob Dobbs: who fell away,

[1:55:29] Bob Dobbs: like Ralph Baldwin was another one.

[1:55:31] Bob Dobbs: They all had personal ambitions that they thought McLuhan would help them leapfrog him into something for themselves.

[1:55:41] Bob Dobbs: Barry didn't have that so much.

[1:55:46] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:55:46] Bob Dobbs: is there anybody else?

[1:55:49] Bob Dobbs: Who else?

[1:55:51] Bob Dobbs: Who did he do books with?

[1:55:53] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:55:53] Bob Dobbs: Quentin,

[1:55:54] Bob Dobbs: Fiore and those guys,

[1:55:55] Bob Dobbs: they were just New York hustlers,

[1:55:57] Bob Dobbs: you know.

[1:55:58] Bob Dobbs: They were...

[1:55:58] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:55:59] Cameron McEwen: well,

[1:55:59] Cameron McEwen: he was...

[1:56:00] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan was using them,

[1:56:01] Cameron McEwen: using their Alan Watts,

[1:56:03] Cameron McEwen: much like he did with Gossage.

[1:56:05] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[1:56:07] Bob Dobbs: So the series guys were Ted Carpenter,

[1:56:10] Bob Dobbs: Harley,

[1:56:11] Bob Dobbs: Barry Watson,

[1:56:14] Bob Dobbs: and whoever else.

[1:56:15] Bob Dobbs: And Daniel Capon,

[1:56:16] Bob Dobbs: he was the computer guy.

[1:56:18] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:56:18] Cameron McEwen: exactly.

[1:56:19] Bob Dobbs: And Theall.

[1:56:20] Bob Dobbs: And maybe one or two other guys we didn't know about.

[1:56:24] Bob Dobbs: you know a businessman here or there uh you know remember there was that businessman guy he really liked max somebody or something in like 64 65 hit on corinne and he had vaguely

[1:56:40] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:56:42] Bob Dobbs: that's in Marchand book.

[1:56:46] Bob Dobbs: Another guy was Philip Dean in the early

[1:56:49] Bob Dobbs: 60s, and you see this in the letters.

[1:56:54] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:56:55] Bob Dobbs: so Ted Carpenter,

[1:56:56] Bob Dobbs: he told me he was into the aesthetics.

[1:57:00] Bob Dobbs: When Marshall started talking about the global thermostat,

[1:57:02] Bob Dobbs: he said,

[1:57:02] Bob Dobbs: that's ridiculous.

[1:57:04] Bob Dobbs: But Barry Nevitt could take that one and play with it.

[1:57:08] Bob Dobbs: And he has in the ABC of Prophecy a

[1:57:11] Bob Dobbs: Ted Carpenter program,

[1:57:12] Bob Dobbs: which is pretty good.

[1:57:13] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if you've ever seen it.

[1:57:15] Bob Dobbs: Do you have his books?

[1:57:17] Cameron McEwen: I have one or two.

[1:57:19] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:57:19] Bob Dobbs: look at the back of ABC of Prophecy where he lays out his

[1:57:24] Bob Dobbs: Ted Carpenter program.

[1:57:25] Bob Dobbs: I think it's 10 points.

[1:57:26] Bob Dobbs: Very interesting.

[1:57:26] Bob Dobbs: He takes on every discipline and shows,

[1:57:30] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:57:30] Bob Dobbs: what's the obsolete part and what's the new part.

[1:57:37] Cameron McEwen: For my taste,

[1:57:40] Cameron McEwen: in his own books and essays,

[1:57:43] Cameron McEwen: Barry's too schematic,

[1:57:47] Cameron McEwen: too classificatory for

[1:57:50] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan.

[1:57:51] Bob Dobbs: That's true,

[1:57:52] Bob Dobbs: but somebody had to do it.

[1:57:56] Bob Dobbs: If you didn't read Barry,

[1:57:57] Bob Dobbs: you didn't know that that was what McLuhan was saying.

[1:58:01] Bob Dobbs: You probably wouldn't get that far.

[1:58:03] Bob Dobbs: Barry spelled out the later...

[1:58:06] Bob Dobbs: the later systematic part of McLuhan.

[1:58:09] Cameron McEwen: But you wouldn't get a part of what McLuhan was saying.

[1:58:16] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:58:17] Bob Dobbs: yeah,

[1:58:17] Cameron McEwen: of course not.

[1:58:19] Cameron McEwen: This was not at all everything McLuhan was saying.

[1:58:24] Cameron McEwen: So there was a translation going on that left out huge parts of the,

[1:58:33] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[1:58:33] Cameron McEwen: Barry was feeling the elephant.

[1:58:35] Cameron McEwen: But he was only able to feel parts of it.

[1:58:39] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:58:39] Bob Dobbs: the other guy who couldn't take it was Maurice McLuhan.

[1:58:44] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:58:45] Bob Dobbs: he hung around for a few years,

[1:58:46] Bob Dobbs: and then he told me,

[1:58:47] Bob Dobbs: it's not good to be under a big oak tree,

[1:58:50] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[1:58:50] Bob Dobbs: for too long.

[1:58:53] Bob Dobbs: And he used to say Marshall was a child.

[1:58:54] Cameron McEwen: He had that problem all his life.

[1:58:56] Bob Dobbs: What?

[1:58:58] Cameron McEwen: Morris had that problem all his life.

[1:59:00] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:59:00] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[1:59:01] Bob Dobbs: So,

[1:59:04] Bob Dobbs: yeah.

[1:59:04] Bob Dobbs: What Barry spelled out,

[1:59:06] Bob Dobbs: it basically Barry spelled out a part that nobody else could do,

[1:59:10] Bob Dobbs: a part of McLuhan.

[1:59:11] Bob Dobbs: And Theall did the other part,

[1:59:13] Bob Dobbs: the fitting his weight part.

[1:59:14] Bob Dobbs: And

[1:59:15] Bob Dobbs: I don't know if there's someone else who did a third part.

[1:59:19] Bob Dobbs: Well,

[1:59:19] Cameron McEwen: Ted Carpenter helped him see the collectives part.

[1:59:23] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[1:59:23] Bob Dobbs: maybe Ted Carpenter was the first.

[1:59:25] Bob Dobbs: It was Ted Carpenter and then

[1:59:27] Bob Dobbs: Theall. No,

[1:59:27] Bob Dobbs: Muller-Thym was the first.

[1:59:29] Cameron McEwen: Muller-Thym was the first huge.

[1:59:34] Cameron McEwen: personal influence.

[1:59:36] Cameron McEwen: And then this is leaving aside his,

[1:59:38] Cameron McEwen: what I call his European connections.

[1:59:41] Cameron McEwen: So

[1:59:42] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan met

[1:59:45] Cameron McEwen: Giedion and Lewis and...

[1:59:50] Bob Dobbs: And Muller-Thym,

[1:59:51] Bob Dobbs: they're all,

[1:59:51] Bob Dobbs: that's the first group.

[1:59:55] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[1:59:55] Cameron McEwen: but

[1:59:56] Cameron McEwen: Muller-Thym is a,

[1:59:59] Cameron McEwen: you know,

[1:59:59] Cameron McEwen: a buddy.

[2:00:00] Cameron McEwen: He's like Ted Carpenter and these guys.

[2:00:02] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:00:02] Cameron McEwen: Whereas the...

[2:00:03] Cameron McEwen: The European guys are a little bit aloof from,

[2:00:08] Cameron McEwen: they're not buddies in any sense at all.

[2:00:10] Bob Dobbs: Right.

[2:00:11] Cameron McEwen: So

[2:00:12] Cameron McEwen: Jill Sohn belongs to that group.

[2:00:16] Cameron McEwen: Even Pound,

[2:00:18] Cameron McEwen: as an honorary European,

[2:00:20] Cameron McEwen: belongs to that.

[2:00:21] Cameron McEwen: But what's interesting is all of these guys are tremendously well-educated,

[2:00:26] Cameron McEwen: and they recognize in McLuhan something that Americans and Canadians couldn't see.

[2:00:32] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:00:34] Cameron McEwen: Because the Canadians and Americans,

[2:00:37] Cameron McEwen: their minds were too constricted.

[2:00:42] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:00:42] Bob Dobbs: they weren't suave European guys.

[2:00:48] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:00:48] Cameron McEwen: they weren't just only suave.

[2:00:50] Cameron McEwen: They were also very well educated and broadly educated.

[2:00:55] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:00:55] Cameron McEwen: And they saw that McLuhan had this broadness that they recognized from Europe.

[2:01:02] Cameron McEwen: And they recognized that it was unusual in America.

[2:01:06] Bob Dobbs: Yes.

[2:01:07] Bob Dobbs: Another guy was John Pick.

[2:01:11] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:01:12] Cameron McEwen: yeah,

[2:01:12] Cameron McEwen: Pick was the editor of

[2:01:15] Cameron McEwen: Renaissance. Yeah.

[2:01:18] Cameron McEwen: I mean,

[2:01:18] Cameron McEwen: if you want to go down that road,

[2:01:20] Cameron McEwen: then

[2:01:22] Cameron McEwen: Ivins was very important to McLuhan,

[2:01:27] Cameron McEwen: both as an intellectual,

[2:01:29] Cameron McEwen: sparring...

[2:01:30] Cameron McEwen: partner and to help him get his stuff published.

[2:01:35] Bob Dobbs: And those guys died.

[2:01:38] Bob Dobbs: Muller-Thym died,

[2:01:39] Bob Dobbs: Felix died,

[2:01:40] Bob Dobbs: Ted Carpenter left town,

[2:01:43] Bob Dobbs: Don got alienated,

[2:01:46] Bob Dobbs: Harley got sick.

[2:01:49] Bob Dobbs: Who else is there?

[2:01:51] Bob Dobbs: John Pick,

[2:01:51] Bob Dobbs: he married an aristocratic lady,

[2:01:53] Bob Dobbs: disappeared.

[2:01:53] Bob Dobbs: Remember we went through him,

[2:01:55] Bob Dobbs: he looked up his history.

[2:01:58] Bob Dobbs: And there were a couple of English guys that were his friends.

[2:02:03] Bob Dobbs: The novelist,

[2:02:04] Bob Dobbs: John somebody.

[2:02:05] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:02:06] Cameron McEwen: John Wain.

[2:02:07] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:02:10] Cameron McEwen: Wayne got alienated by McLuhan writing in the TLS supplement that he made fun of the

[2:02:25] Cameron McEwen: English lower class aspiring to,

[2:02:30] Cameron McEwen: I don't know,

[2:02:31] Cameron McEwen: literary competence or something like that.

[2:02:34] Cameron McEwen: And

[2:02:35] Cameron McEwen: Wayne was a lower class guy.

[2:02:38] Cameron McEwen: at a Wright,

[2:02:39] Cameron McEwen: so he didn't talk to McLuhan again.

[2:02:42] Cameron McEwen: And there were other people like that.

[2:02:44] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan often just let his mouth run.

[2:02:48] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:02:48] Bob Dobbs: he alienated Frank Kermode and Jonathan Miller,

[2:02:51] Bob Dobbs: who were fans of his at the beginning.

[2:02:54] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:02:54] Cameron McEwen: but Jonathan Miller didn't understand anything about McLuhan.

[2:03:00] Cameron McEwen: And then his attack is just ridiculous.

[2:03:03] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:03:07] Cameron McEwen: And I don't think Kermode can be compared to Miller.

[2:03:11] Cameron McEwen: Kermode tried to learn from McLuhan and was interested in what McLuhan was saying.

[2:03:21] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:03:21] Bob Dobbs: and who's the gadfly hopping around in the middle of all this?

[2:03:25] Bob Dobbs: Robert Fulford.

[2:03:27] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:03:28] Cameron McEwen: but to me,

[2:03:29] Cameron McEwen: he's another guy like Miller who didn't understand what was going on at all and later came to attack.

[2:03:38] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:03:39] Bob Dobbs: And,

[2:03:39] Bob Dobbs: you know,

[2:03:39] Bob Dobbs: he wrote a book.

[2:03:40] Bob Dobbs: He said he was in the best seat in the house.

[2:03:45] Cameron McEwen: They all think that they're the center of the world.

[2:03:48] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:03:50] Bob Dobbs: And McLuhan occasionally would one-up them by saying it publicly.

[2:03:54] Bob Dobbs: You know,

[2:03:55] Bob Dobbs: I'm the only one who knows what's going on.

[2:03:56] Bob Dobbs: I'm the center for culture and technology.

[2:04:01] Bob Dobbs: So let's see.

[2:04:03] Cameron McEwen: I think if McLuhan,

[2:04:04] Cameron McEwen: when McLuhan talked like that.

[2:04:07] Cameron McEwen: He was not meaning it seriously.

[2:04:12] Cameron McEwen: McLuhan knew that humility was endless and that it was ridiculous to talk about being a unique seer or something.

[2:04:27] Cameron McEwen: The other guys didn't necessarily know that endless humility was necessary.

[2:04:36] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:04:36] Bob Dobbs: that's where in Take Today,

[2:04:38] Bob Dobbs: he talks about prophetic awareness,

[2:04:40] Bob Dobbs: visionary awareness is obsolete.

[2:04:42] Bob Dobbs: That's what this Kuhn point is indicating.

[2:04:50] Cameron McEwen: Yes,

[2:04:50] Cameron McEwen: I think so.

[2:04:52] Cameron McEwen: It's a little bit like the fall in Finnegans Wake.

[2:05:01] Cameron McEwen: It's very difficult for people to understand.

[2:05:05] Cameron McEwen: that their limitations may be the key to understanding their context.

[2:05:12] Bob Dobbs: Yeah.

[2:05:13] Cameron McEwen: Generally,

[2:05:14] Cameron McEwen: people want to think about their brilliance or their great idea or their fulcrum or something like this.

[2:05:21] Cameron McEwen: But no,

[2:05:21] Cameron McEwen: it's your limitation,

[2:05:25] Cameron McEwen: it's your short-sightedness that is the key.

[2:05:30] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:05:30] Bob Dobbs: the hamartia,

[2:05:31] Bob Dobbs: the tragic flaw.

[2:05:33] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:05:34] Cameron McEwen: absolutely.

[2:05:36] Bob Dobbs: So we might have to come back to this connubium.

[2:05:39] Bob Dobbs: That's an ongoing discussion about what it means.

[2:05:43] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:05:45] Cameron McEwen: We've gone beyond our time a little bit.

[2:05:48] Cameron McEwen: Why don't we start with that next time?

[2:05:51] Bob Dobbs: Right,

[2:05:51] Bob Dobbs: because this is the first time I've ever really discussed it with anybody.

[2:05:55] Bob Dobbs: I've brought up the

[2:05:56] Bob Dobbs: Rhyee idea to different people,

[2:05:58] Bob Dobbs: but they didn't even know the quote.

[2:06:01] Bob Dobbs: But this is the first time I've gone over the quote with someone who was reading the quote at the same time.

[2:06:06] Bob Dobbs: So that's very good.

[2:06:07] Cameron McEwen: Yeah.

[2:06:09] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:06:10] Bob Dobbs: it's an important statement,

[2:06:11] Bob Dobbs: a paragraph or two that nobody talks about.

[2:06:17] Cameron McEwen: Sure.

[2:06:17] Cameron McEwen: Well,

[2:06:18] Cameron McEwen: I'm going to think about it and study it a little bit for next time.

[2:06:23] Cameron McEwen: And if you have the spare moment,

[2:06:27] Cameron McEwen: you might do the same thing yourself.

[2:06:30] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:06:30] Bob Dobbs: I'm going to make a note to myself on that quote.

[2:06:33] Bob Dobbs: I'm not waiting for you to send me a note.

[2:06:37] Cameron McEwen: Yes,

[2:06:37] Cameron McEwen: I might fail to do so.

[2:06:38] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:06:39] Bob Dobbs: I'm going to do that right now.

[2:06:41] Bob Dobbs: Make a note to myself what we're going to do.

[2:06:45] Bob Dobbs: I guess that's it.

[2:06:47] Bob Dobbs: We made up for all the missing weeks and started late,

[2:06:51] Bob Dobbs: but we got a lot done,

[2:06:52] Bob Dobbs: and you survived it.

[2:06:54] Cameron McEwen: Yes,

[2:06:54] Cameron McEwen: sir.

[2:06:56] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[2:06:56] Bob Dobbs: very good.

[2:06:57] Bob Dobbs: We'll talk in two weeks.

[2:06:59] Cameron McEwen: Thanks very much.

[2:07:00] Cameron McEwen: Yeah,

[2:07:00] Cameron McEwen: look forward.

[2:07:01] Bob Dobbs: Yeah,

[2:07:01] Bob Dobbs: it was good.

[2:07:01] Bob Dobbs: Okay,

[2:07:02] Bob Dobbs: bye.

[2:07:03] Cameron McEwen: Bye-bye.